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YouGov CON member’s poll has Truss extending lead – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 7 in General
imageYouGov CON member’s poll has Truss extending lead – politicalbetting.com

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,189
    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,682
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.1 Liz Truss 91%
    11 Rishi Sunak 9%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.09 Liz Truss 92%
    11 Rishi Sunak 9%
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    Hi all,

    I am going to now be known as LightweightMuppetBattery.

    That is all.

    I'd take that as a badge of honour from the guy who told us Ed Miliband was crap and would be Prime Minister.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,294
    Ooh, data tables. Makes a change from last night.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795
    Grocer's apostrophe.

    For shame!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    edited August 2

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    "I hate him — as I would hate a malfunctioning printer that I have to use".

    "his pedantic voice, which makes everything he says sound like an HR meeting you don't really need to be at."


    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
  • pingping Posts: 2,442
    edited August 2
    FPT

    —-

    Casino_Royale said:
    » show previous quotes
    Actually, it sort of hasn't: it demonstrates she has acute political judgement.

    She killed the story in hours (cut her losses in gamblers parlance) when she realised it could damage her.

    Theresa May would have let it run for days.

    —-

    Her original problem remains, though.

    How to pay for her tax cuts. It’s either fantasy Reaganomics, or she has another stab at identifying significant cost savings. Or she bait-and-switches the membership once in power, either significantly scaling back her tax cuts “having looked at the books” / “because of different financial circumstances” - or - she has to cut pensions / nhs etc that the membership don’t expect to be cut.

    She’s kicked the can down the road. Far enough to get her over the line?

    We’ll see.
  • Liz has shown many times she doesn't know what she is doing or talking about. This is just the latest example.

    She has the same problem as Johnson, she doesn't know when to stop talking
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,018

    Hi all,

    I am going to now be known as LightweightMuppetBattery.

    That is all.

    I'd take that as a badge of honour from the guy who told us Ed Miliband was crap and would be Prime Minister.
    I recall Ed is Crap being a PB Tory thing

    EICIPM was a parody that clearly went over your head mate (i think)!!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,598
    ping said:

    FPT

    —-

    Casino_Royale said:
    » show previous quotes
    Actually, it sort of hasn't: it demonstrates she has acute political judgement.

    She killed the story in hours (cut her losses in gamblers parlance) when she realised it could damage her.

    Theresa May would have let it run for days.

    —-

    Her original problem remains, though.

    How to pay for her tax cuts. It’s either fantasy Reganomics, or she has another stab at identifying significant cost savings. Or she bait-and-switches the membership once in power, either significantly scaling back her tax cuts “having looked at the books” / “because of different financial circumstances” - or - she has to cut pensions / nhs etc that the membership don’t expect to be cut.

    She’s kicked the can down the road. Far enough to get her over the line?

    We’ll see.

    If it does get her over the line, what then?

    "Having looked at the books" ain't gonna wash given that she's been in the cabinet all along. Perhaps she just wrote TL:DR :s on all the Trasury papers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,018

    Hi all,

    I am going to now be known as LightweightMuppetBattery.

    That is all.

    Good on you mate you know I like you really
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,885

    Grocer's apostrophe.

    For shame!

    Maybe it was a poll of just one member, who answered 1,043 times.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,803
    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,189
    Leon said:

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
    He is impure. He does not bear the mark. He is neither beer and sandwiches nor is he Polly Toynbee. He does not say comrade nor does he dress as Emily Thornberry and sneer at self employed tradesmen. He is UNLABOUR.

    Release the hounds
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,449

    Hi all,

    I am going to now be known as LightweightMuppetBattery.

    That is all.

    I'd take that as a badge of honour from the guy who told us Ed Miliband was crap and would be Prime Minister.
    I recall Ed is Crap being a PB Tory thing

    EICIPM was a parody that clearly went over your head mate (i think)!!
    No it wasn't. You posted it several hundred times in response to Labour poll leads. The IC element might have been parodic the first couple of times, but lost any point it initially had thereafter
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034

    Hi all,

    I am going to now be known as LightweightMuppetBattery.

    That is all.

    You always were..... 😉
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,983
    System said:

    imageYouGov CON member’s poll has Truss extending lead – politicalbetting.com

    Read the full story here

    An observation...as a lefty and longtime lurker.. Casino R almost always winds me up...but out of all the posters on pbCOM, he has the effect of making the hairs on my neck tick upwards...he possesses that quality that the usual Toryboy cheerkleaders cannot reach...even Hyfud bless him...

  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    Leon said:

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
    He is impure. He does not bear the mark. He is neither beer and sandwiches nor is he Polly Toynbee. He does not say comrade nor does he dress as Emily Thornberry and sneer at self employed tradesmen. He is UNLABOUR.

    Release the hounds
    It is one of the best take-downs I have ever read of any politician. Each sentence rises over the last, until it becomes a a sustained and piercing howl of withering contempt. Genius

    The finest, noblest, most chateau-bottled hatred is always WITHIN political parties
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,699
    Voting intention of people who did not vote in 2019
    (compared to headline VI)

    Lab 42% (+4)
    Con 17% (-17)
    LD 13% (+2)
    Ref 11% (+7)
    Grn 7% (same)
    SNP 6% (+2)

    R&W; 31 July

    Expressed as a percentage of each party’s headline VI:

    Reform +175%
    SNP +50%
    LD +18%
    Lab +11%
    Grn same
    Con -50%

    Normally, I’d ignore DNV VI, but I believe it will be important next time around.

    The opposition parties really need to do everything in their power to increase turnout.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 4,189
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
    He is impure. He does not bear the mark. He is neither beer and sandwiches nor is he Polly Toynbee. He does not say comrade nor does he dress as Emily Thornberry and sneer at self employed tradesmen. He is UNLABOUR.

    Release the hounds
    It is one of the best take-downs I have ever read of any politician. Each sentence rises over the last, until it becomes a a sustained and piercing howl of withering contempt. Genius

    The finest, noblest, most chateau-bottled hatred is always WITHIN political parties
    Oh totally. We get a delicious amuse bouche of it during leadership elections and occasionally in these sorts of intervention
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,697
    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    Voting for the next Prime Minister has been delayed after GCHQ warned cyber hackers could change people’s ballots

    Tory HQ forced to scrap plans to let members switch votes later in race over security fears. Means ballots still not sent out
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/
  • MPartridgeMPartridge Posts: 117

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,795
    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of diets, I took my day's exercise today by walking to King's Cross from Camden Market, to see the latest iteration of the King's X development

    I know I've mentioned this before, but it is astonishing, and just gets better. They've now extended it north with new gardens, boulevards, pavilions, a dozen new restaurants, new bars and shops, playgrounds, sculpture parks, schools, industrial sheds turned into mighty echoing art galleries where hipster students play table tennis

    If you like dense, cultured urban life (and lots of restaurants) King's Cross might be the most desirable part of London to live in, right now. Which, for anyone that knew King's Cross in the 80s, is mind-boggling. I'm not sure there is anything like it anywhere else in the world

    So we might have wrecked half of the UK's towns from 1945-2010, but maybe we are learning. Slowly

    Good luck with the diet. I have the added incentive that the Pitts Special flight I have booked has a weight limit and currently I am 3 kg over it.
    You in an S2?

    Can I give you one word of advice: under absolutely no circumstances have anything to eat before flying.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,810

    Voting intention of people who did not vote in 2019
    (compared to headline VI)

    Lab 42% (+4)
    Con 17% (-17)
    LD 13% (+2)
    Ref 11% (+7)
    Grn 7% (same)
    SNP 6% (+2)

    R&W; 31 July

    Expressed as a percentage of each party’s headline VI:

    Reform +175%
    SNP +50%
    LD +18%
    Lab +11%
    Grn same
    Con -50%

    Normally, I’d ignore DNV VI, but I believe it will be important next time around.

    The opposition parties really need to do everything in their power to increase turnout.

    That's really interesting. I haven't seen that before. Does anyone else do that?
    Suggesting if a portion of Tories continue to abstain, they are going to find them difficult to replace.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350

    @NickPalmer has had plenty of time to distance himself rom Corbyn

    I suspect he won't because he agrees at least a bit

    I doubt Nick cares, but he can't retain my respect without an unequivocal, complete and sincere statement on the evil perpetuated by HIS MAN'S side

    That's why you all need to hang your heads in shame

    Corbyn is pro Russia/Putin and has proved it today

    That's one reading of the brief clip of what he said. Is President Macron also a Russian mole for having tried to broker a peace deal?
    I hate to think what you think you're trying to stand up for
    And you are getting excited about an extreme interpretation of some old has-been.
    A has-been that the new man strenuously supported in the last two General Elections

    Did he ever indicate a different Ukraine strategy than the "surrender now" one his boss espoused through Stop The War since 2014?
    First, Corbyn is calling for a ceasefire, not a surrender. And one way or another, this war will end with a ceasefire and not the unconditional surrender of Russia. Second, Corbyn was calling for stiffer sanctions against Russia than were applied by our government. Third, Corbyn has not taken Russian money or met with KGB agents. Fourth, if Starmer is somehow bound to Corbyn by history, what do you make of Liz and Rishi distancing themselves from the government in which they both served and that one of them still does?
    "First, Corbyn is calling for a ceasefire, not a surrender. "

    He is calling for the west not to provide Ukraine with any arms. Which would force Ukraine to either negotiate from a position of massive weakness, or lead them to defeat. Either way, Russia gets to keep a massive amount of territory, and will know that Ukraine will not be armed when they want to grab the rest.

    Worse, other neighbouring countries will know that the west will not defend them.

    it is a fuckwitted thing to suggest, and a fuckwitted thing to support. Unless you support Russia. It is deeply immoral.

    Corbyn just needs to say: "The only way to get long-term peace is for Russia to withdraw back to the January 2022 borders."

    But he won't.
    No, because Russia was the birthplace of his philosophy and can do no wrong.
    To be fair it came from North London originally.
    This deserved a lot more likes than it got.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,146
    Leon said:

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    "I hate him — as I would hate a malfunctioning printer that I have to use".

    "his pedantic voice, which makes everything he says sound like an HR meeting you don't really need to be at."


    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
    Sort of nailed him with the HR meeting stuff though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,682
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    Voting for the next Prime Minister has been delayed after GCHQ warned cyber hackers could change people’s ballots

    Tory HQ forced to scrap plans to let members switch votes later in race over security fears. Means ballots still not sent out
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/

    It all seems a bit vague. I get the danger of voters uploading pictures of their ballot papers, but unless the 1922 Committee used consecutive (or otherwise predictable) numbers, it is not immediately clear what the NCSC is worried about.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,146
    ping said:

    FPT

    —-

    Casino_Royale said:
    » show previous quotes
    Actually, it sort of hasn't: it demonstrates she has acute political judgement.

    She killed the story in hours (cut her losses in gamblers parlance) when she realised it could damage her.

    Theresa May would have let it run for days.

    —-

    Her original problem remains, though.

    How to pay for her tax cuts. It’s either fantasy Reaganomics, or she has another stab at identifying significant cost savings. Or she bait-and-switches the membership once in power, either significantly scaling back her tax cuts “having looked at the books” / “because of different financial circumstances” - or - she has to cut pensions / nhs etc that the membership don’t expect to be cut.

    She’s kicked the can down the road. Far enough to get her over the line?

    We’ll see.

    To implement such a policy would mean a huge fight with the unions and national strikes.

    It could be done but over many years and you'd have to grease palms and stuff mouths to do it (mixing my metaphors a bit).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    Leon said:

    In an alternate universe, 'senior Tories' are briefing their concern that Boris and Rishis economic relaunch hasnt shifted the polls and Angie and Sam Tarry have invited Keir over for a curry

    I point PB-ers to this scintillating piece of invective, aimed by a left wing Labour voter directly at Kier Starmer. There is REAL hatred of Sir Beer Korma on the Corbynite left. Does it mean anything? Dunno. But if this feeling grows...


    "What I need, really, what we all need, is the possibility of actually doing something: a pathway to the sort of concrete action that might actually make the world a better place. Keir Starmer, a wet-wipe, a fatberg, blocks this possibility ..."

    "I hate him — as I would hate a malfunctioning printer that I have to use".

    "his pedantic voice, which makes everything he says sound like an HR meeting you don't really need to be at."


    https://twitter.com/mzaheer88/status/1554126814066638849?s=20&t=dAXAdzyl8NksKYDtU7szaQ

    Superbly cruel. Admire the nasty prose, if nothing else
    Sort of nailed him with the HR meeting stuff though.
    Yes, that's the best of many excellent lines. That IS Starmer. It's perfect
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,948
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    Voting for the next Prime Minister has been delayed after GCHQ warned cyber hackers could change people’s ballots

    Tory HQ forced to scrap plans to let members switch votes later in race over security fears. Means ballots still not sent out
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/

    I had a funny feeling this would happen. I presume it took GCHQ about a minute to get in.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,147
    Leon said:

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
    Evil. Just remember what he did after the Brighton bombing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    Obviously not basically non graduates and earning under £30k a year are who would be defined as working class now
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,146
    tyson said:

    System said:

    imageYouGov CON member’s poll has Truss extending lead – politicalbetting.com

    Read the full story here

    An observation...as a lefty and longtime lurker.. Casino R almost always winds me up...but out of all the posters on pbCOM, he has the effect of making the hairs on my neck tick upwards...he possesses that quality that the usual Toryboy cheerkleaders cannot reach...even Hyfud bless him...

    Um. You want me to stand for leader?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,715

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    "You know your place!"
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,682

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    And yet one of them will be our next Prime Minister.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795
    Leon said:

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
    Both.

    The leader of the SNP was convinced by the evidence Russia was behind the Salisbury attack whereas Corbyn wasn't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    "You know your place!"
    I don’t, which is why I’m asking!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,699
    dixiedean said:

    Voting intention of people who did not vote in 2019
    (compared to headline VI)

    Lab 42% (+4)
    Con 17% (-17)
    LD 13% (+2)
    Ref 11% (+7)
    Grn 7% (same)
    SNP 6% (+2)

    R&W; 31 July

    Expressed as a percentage of each party’s headline VI:

    Reform +175%
    SNP +50%
    LD +18%
    Lab +11%
    Grn same
    Con -50%

    Normally, I’d ignore DNV VI, but I believe it will be important next time around.

    The opposition parties really need to do everything in their power to increase turnout.

    That's really interesting. I haven't seen that before. Does anyone else do that?
    Suggesting if a portion of Tories continue to abstain, they are going to find them difficult to replace.
    No, it is not very common to see DNV VI in the detailed tables. For example YouGov only break it down by Con/Lab/LD 2019 voters.

    Some other pollsters, notably Savanta ComRes, are so tardy with their tables I can’t be arsed looking them up. Consistently breach the BPC rules.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,146

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    Leon said:

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
    Evil. Just remember what he did after the Brighton bombing.
    And look at his brother, the raving anti-Semite Piers

    It's quite a spectacle. What happened to those boys to turn them into THAT?

    It needs a good, probing, forensic biographer. Something happened in the Corbyn household in the 1950s-60s
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,699
    Voter retention:

    Percentage of each party’s 2019 voters who are sticking with the same party next time round too:

    SNP 85%
    Lab 84%
    Con 75%
    LD 67%

    R&W; 31 July

    That LD 67% really ought to worry the Tories, because a whopping 24% of 2019 LD voters are intending to switch to Labour next time. If these voters are in the “right” constituencies then a larger than expected number of Con MPs will fall.

    5% of 2019 Labour voters are reciprocating the favour.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,147

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    And yet one of them will be our next Prime Minister.
    'Fraid so. Probably not for long, although the dull droning of the chap from HR isn't a terribly appealing prospect either.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,395
    Sunak went from 12 to 5, and now he's back up to 9.8.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics-betting-2378961
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,395
    Sunak went from 12 to 5, and now he's back up to 9.8.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics-betting-2378961
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,691
    Andy_JS said:

    Sunak went from 12 to 5, and now he's back up to 9.8.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics-betting-2378961

    This is the life eh readers!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829
    edited August 2

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,395
    edited August 2
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    Voting for the next Prime Minister has been delayed after GCHQ warned cyber hackers could change people’s ballots

    Tory HQ forced to scrap plans to let members switch votes later in race over security fears. Means ballots still not sent out
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/

    About a week ago I said it was a bad idea to have online voting, and that they should have stuck with paper ballots only.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,699

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    And yet one of them will be our next Prime Minister.
    'Fraid so. Probably not for long, although the dull droning of the chap from HR isn't a terribly appealing prospect either.
    The more I see of Starmer, the more I worry about how he’s going to cope with the intensive 4 week campaign. The man is just so tedious. He has visibly aged in the last couple of years. And that voice…

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,742
    How pathetic from China . Don’t mess with Nancy who is a truly astonishing woman . Quite amazing that she’s now 82 and still kicks ass .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,691

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    The trouble is it will cost the NHS more than £10 to chase and fine the missing appointee the £10.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    You are officially middle class.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350
    Leon said:

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
    I don't think it's an "or".
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,105
    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    Voting for the next Prime Minister has been delayed after GCHQ warned cyber hackers could change people’s ballots

    Tory HQ forced to scrap plans to let members switch votes later in race over security fears. Means ballots still not sent out
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/

    I had a funny feeling this would happen. I presume it took GCHQ about a minute to get in.
    As I mentioned at the time, it was a great idea that was bound to go wrong. Sort of stuff I'm likely to come up with.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 352

    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?

    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Mmm, personally I think there's a strong cultural component to class definitions. 'Working class' correlates with 'lower income' and 'manual/unskilled labour jobs' but isn't defined by those things. (Among other things, if we want to talk about policies to benefit those on lower incomes, we should just say that: much clearer and better defined and doesn't get tangled up in the culture stuff.)

    I also like the Grayson Perry question for helping define 'middle class': do you have a cafetiere? Obviously this is hardly a reliable indicator, but I think it does highlight that our class distinctions are a bundle of cultural signifiers.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,085

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    The Marxist definition is to look at how much control you have over your own work and that of others. As, I believe, a university academic, you have a certain degree of autonomy in your work, but this has been eroded in recent decades, though you likely direct the work of junior academics and PhD students.

    So broadly speaking you're middle class, but there have been moves by your university bosses to reduce your autonomy and to proletarianise your occupation.

    Salary levels have nothing to do with it. The question is one of relative power.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,284

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    The trouble is it will cost the NHS more than £10 to chase and fine the missing appointee the £10.

    Given that a visit to a doctor often results in £18.70 of prescription charges £10 is not really enough
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,742
    The leadership vote drama this evening does shine a light on the security issues around online voting .
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,147

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    It was suggested and rapidly binned when anyone looked at it. The NHS is appalling at making appointments. They send out a letter, often to the wrong address or which arrives when you're on holiday,, which sets a time without any reference to whether you can make it, with no easy way of rescheduling it. And that's even without considering the practical problems of patients actually getting there.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    You are officially middle class.
    Ooh, exciting. Do I have to vote Lib Dem now then?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 17,554

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Goodness, what did she have to end up in the medical records? World's biggest varicose vein?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,530
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FPT: this is e Corbyn interview I am referring to.

    https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/1554360196935335936

    Note: he is not calling on Russia to withdraw. He is explicitly calling on the west not to provide arms to Ukraine. This is what he is telling a foreign media outlet.

    Is Corbyn stupid or evil?

    I could never quite answer that question. In retrospect I am tending to Evil, with a big dollop of Stupid
    Evil. Just remember what he did after the Brighton bombing.
    And look at his brother, the raving anti-Semite Piers

    It's quite a spectacle. What happened to those boys to turn them into THAT?

    It needs a good, probing, forensic biographer. Something happened in the Corbyn household in the 1950s-60s
    My pet theory is that Jeremy is M15 & 6s greatest ever agent - he has had access through decades that the agencies would die for. He has a chest full of medals.

    Of course, by becoming Labour leader, to keep his cover, that was the security agencies going way rogue and subverting the democratic system. He was equally unsuited to be LOTO in this scenario.

    But, in reality, he was probably just what he appeared to be.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,395
    nico679 said:

    The leadership vote drama this evening does shine a light on the security issues around online voting .

    Whoever decided online voting was a good idea needs to be shown the door IMO.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 17,554

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    It was suggested and rapidly binned when anyone looked at it. The NHS is appalling at making appointments. They send out a letter, often to the wrong address or which arrives when you're on holiday,, which sets a time without any reference to whether you can make it, with no easy way of rescheduling it. And that's even without considering the practical problems of patients actually getting there.
    It's farcical. Have they never heard of email? Cretinous organisation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    I think there's a bit of a difference between GP appointments (perfectly sound to fine people for not turning up), and dementia specialist appointments...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,521

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    The trouble is it will cost the NHS more than £10 to chase and fine the missing appointee the £10.

    When I worked in Casualty in NZ they would bill people who called an ambulance for trivial things. I think hardly anyone ever paid, but the point was made, and no serious attempt at collection.

    A bit like no-shows on airplanes, sometimes it is only the DNA*s that mean a clinic finish vaguely on time, because of overbooking.

    * Did Not Attend
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,699
    pm215 said:

    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?

    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Mmm, personally I think there's a strong cultural component to class definitions. 'Working class' correlates with 'lower income' and 'manual/unskilled labour jobs' but isn't defined by those things. (Among other things, if we want to talk about policies to benefit those on lower incomes, we should just say that: much clearer and better defined and doesn't get tangled up in the culture stuff.)

    I also like the Grayson Perry question for helping define 'middle class': do you have a cafetiere? Obviously this is hardly a reliable indicator, but I think it does highlight that our class distinctions are a bundle of cultural signifiers.
    What about grinding your own coffee beans? Does that earn the ‘upper’ middle class subdivision?

    (Cafetières are not very good. You really need a quality coffee maker.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,258

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    And yet one of them will be our next Prime Minister.
    'Fraid so. Probably not for long, although the dull droning of the chap from HR isn't a terribly appealing prospect either.
    The more I see of Starmer, the more I worry about how he’s going to cope with the intensive 4 week campaign. The man is just so tedious. He has visibly aged in the last couple of years. And that voice…
    He could do an IDS: "The forensic man is here to stay, and he's taping off the crime scene."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    You are officially middle class.
    Ooh, exciting. Do I have to vote Lib Dem now then?
    Do you wear sandals? If you do, then yes.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    It was suggested and rapidly binned when anyone looked at it. The NHS is appalling at making appointments. They send out a letter, often to the wrong address or which arrives when you're on holiday,, which sets a time without any reference to whether you can make it, with no easy way of rescheduling it. And that's even without considering the practical problems of patients actually getting there.
    It's farcical. Have they never heard of email? Cretinous organisation.
    Our surgery is happy to send text reminders. Very useful.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,948
    pm215 said:

    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?

    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Mmm, personally I think there's a strong cultural component to class definitions. 'Working class' correlates with 'lower income' and 'manual/unskilled labour jobs' but isn't defined by those things. (Among other things, if we want to talk about policies to benefit those on lower incomes, we should just say that: much clearer and better defined and doesn't get tangled up in the culture stuff.)

    I also like the Grayson Perry question for helping define 'middle class': do you have a cafetiere? Obviously this is hardly a reliable indicator, but I think it does highlight that our class distinctions are a bundle of cultural signifiers.
    It's people who use the "big light" for anything other than cleaning. Animals.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 17,554
    rcs1000 said:

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    I think there's a bit of a difference between GP appointments (perfectly sound to fine people for not turning up), and dementia specialist appointments...
    An appointment by definition is made by two parties. Otherwise it's an appointment for one. When someone has succeeded in making an appointment with me, they will be informed of the fact.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,350
    pm215 said:

    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?

    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Mmm, personally I think there's a strong cultural component to class definitions. 'Working class' correlates with 'lower income' and 'manual/unskilled labour jobs' but isn't defined by those things. (Among other things, if we want to talk about policies to benefit those on lower incomes, we should just say that: much clearer and better defined and doesn't get tangled up in the culture stuff.)

    I also like the Grayson Perry question for helping define 'middle class': do you have a cafetiere? Obviously this is hardly a reliable indicator, but I think it does highlight that our class distinctions are a bundle of cultural signifiers.
    I hate to think where a Nespresso machine puts you...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829
    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
    Yes, but I do flirt with Lidl, Morrison’s and B and M.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    Wow

    Jack Monroe, the Bootstrap Cook, has been pretty much cancelled on Twitter

    Scenes
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
    Yes, but I do flirt with Lidl, Morrison’s and B and M.
    Ok, I'm revoking your middle class membership.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,521

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    It was suggested and rapidly binned when anyone looked at it. The NHS is appalling at making appointments. They send out a letter, often to the wrong address or which arrives when you're on holiday,, which sets a time without any reference to whether you can make it, with no easy way of rescheduling it. And that's even without considering the practical problems of patients actually getting there.
    They are required to give 3 weeks notice, unless on the 2 week wait pathway.

    If the letters go to the wrong address it is because the person has moved and not told the Hospital/Practice.

    Most of our appointments are "Partial Booked" meaning someone is told when to expect an appointment, contacted a few weeks in advance, and a time booked either by phone, or online.

    People often say they haven't had a letter, even we produce a copy!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,663
    Foxy said:

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    The trouble is it will cost the NHS more than £10 to chase and fine the missing appointee the £10.

    When I worked in Casualty in NZ they would bill people who called an ambulance for trivial things. I think hardly anyone ever paid, but the point was made, and no serious attempt at collection.

    A bit like no-shows on airplanes, sometimes it is only the DNA*s that mean a clinic finish vaguely on time, because of overbooking.

    * Did Not Attend
    I suspect it won't work because people can't get appointments in the first place. I have been with my present group practice for 3 years now and never seen a doctor. Many nurses etc but no doctors.

    I had 2 phone consultations which were worse than useless.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    You are officially middle class.
    Ooh, exciting. Do I have to vote Lib Dem now then?
    Do you wear sandals? If you do, then yes.
    Yes, but sans socks, and only in hot weather. Although not really sandals, more those half walking trainer, half water trainer things with holes in the sides.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829

    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
    Yes, but I do flirt with Lidl, Morrison’s and B and M.
    Ok, I'm revoking your middle class membership.
    We were on a break...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,521
    On the important issue of British occupation of Rwanda, it does seem that British Imperial forces (Ugandan and Indian) succesfully invaded Rwanda in 1916 as logistic support for the Belgian invasion of the Congo.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,829
    Leon said:

    Wow

    Jack Monroe, the Bootstrap Cook, has been pretty much cancelled on Twitter

    Scenes

    What for this time? Had her multitude of deceptions exposed?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,147
    rcs1000 said:

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    I think there's a bit of a difference between GP appointments (perfectly sound to fine people for not turning up), and dementia specialist appointments...
    GP appointments?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795

    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
    Yes, but I do flirt with Lidl, Morrison’s and B and M.
    Ok, I'm revoking your middle class membership.
    We were on a break...
    Hah.

    My grandfather moved to this country and was catapulted into the middle classes because of his profession.

    The class structure of this country is flexible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    And yet one of them will be our next Prime Minister.
    'Fraid so. Probably not for long, although the dull droning of the chap from HR isn't a terribly appealing prospect either.
    The more I see of Starmer, the more I worry about how he’s going to cope with the intensive 4 week campaign. The man is just so tedious. He has visibly aged in the last couple of years. And that voice…
    He could do an IDS: "The forensic man is here to stay, and he's taping off the crime scene."
    lolz
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 17,554

    pm215 said:

    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?

    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Mmm, personally I think there's a strong cultural component to class definitions. 'Working class' correlates with 'lower income' and 'manual/unskilled labour jobs' but isn't defined by those things. (Among other things, if we want to talk about policies to benefit those on lower incomes, we should just say that: much clearer and better defined and doesn't get tangled up in the culture stuff.)

    I also like the Grayson Perry question for helping define 'middle class': do you have a cafetiere? Obviously this is hardly a reliable indicator, but I think it does highlight that our class distinctions are a bundle of cultural signifiers.
    What about grinding your own coffee beans? Does that earn the ‘upper’ middle class subdivision?

    (Cafetières are not very good. You really need a quality coffee maker.)
    I have always thought that the upper middle class designation was for those who live, and speak, like those from the upper class, just aren't as grand/well connected. Senior solicitors/medical consultants/politicians/civil servants/military could be upper middle class.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,105
    rcs1000 said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of diets, I took my day's exercise today by walking to King's Cross from Camden Market, to see the latest iteration of the King's X development

    I know I've mentioned this before, but it is astonishing, and just gets better. They've now extended it north with new gardens, boulevards, pavilions, a dozen new restaurants, new bars and shops, playgrounds, sculpture parks, schools, industrial sheds turned into mighty echoing art galleries where hipster students play table tennis

    If you like dense, cultured urban life (and lots of restaurants) King's Cross might be the most desirable part of London to live in, right now. Which, for anyone that knew King's Cross in the 80s, is mind-boggling. I'm not sure there is anything like it anywhere else in the world

    So we might have wrecked half of the UK's towns from 1945-2010, but maybe we are learning. Slowly

    Good luck with the diet. I have the added incentive that the Pitts Special flight I have booked has a weight limit and currently I am 3 kg over it.
    You in an S2?

    Can I give you one word of advice: under absolutely no circumstances have anything to eat before flying.
    Yes. I'm a passenger.

    It is the one thing I am really worried about. I have looped in a glider and was ok, but I am concerned about being sick. Also I have never been in a plane that has stalled so that experience is also scaring me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102

    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with "Starmer betrayed working people who won't vote for him" narrative is that it misunderstands who working people are.

    In the Labour movement, "working people" are in trade unions. Or are told they should join a union. In the real world, most working people aren't in a trade union and likely never have been.

    There remains a lot of "that's not fair what do I get" self focus when it comes to wages and conditions. People see striking train company staff and don't think "solidarity", they think "greedy bastards"...

    This is so spot on.

    Same reason why Momentum and the Corbyn cult couldn't understand (or admit) why the working class were deserting them.
    How do you even define the ‘working class’? I work for an employer full time, but my salary is 50K. My wifes is around 40K. Are we working class?
    It's complicated.

    I've never understood the obsession with class in this country.

    Using my rough and ready calculator, were your parents professionals?

    Did you go to a nice school?
    Dad was a policeman, retiring as acting superintendent. Mother ended up in medical records for the nhs.
    I went to a grammar school and am conflicted about this, as it served me well, but I understand the antipathy of many and the overall probably negative effect on wider society.
    Do you shop at Waitrose?
    Yes, but I do flirt with Lidl, Morrison’s and B and M.
    Ok, I'm revoking your middle class membership.
    We were on a break...
    Hah.

    My grandfather moved to this country and was catapulted into the middle classes because of his profession.

    The class structure of this country is flexible.
    Except the upper class, entry to which is determined by birth and arguably marriage
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 832
    Leon said:

    Wow

    Jack Monroe, the Bootstrap Cook, has been pretty much cancelled on Twitter

    Scenes

    I will not comment for myself, because she is rather litigious, but her alleged griftiness and alleged pathological-lyingness have been extensively documented for years:

    https://tattle.life/tags/jack-monroe/
  • glwglw Posts: 8,406
    Andy_JS said:

    nico679 said:

    The leadership vote drama this evening does shine a light on the security issues around online voting .

    Whoever decided online voting was a good idea needs to be shown the door IMO.
    It's not just the security per se that matters, but all the potential to interfere in an election through denial of service, which potentially could even be targetted right down to ward or property level to deny certain groups of voters.

    As a rule of thumb the more you understand about computer security the worse it all looks.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,146
    rcs1000 said:

    I bow to no-one in my contempt for Ms Truss, but it has to be said that Sunak has done an impressive job of torpedoing what was supposed to be his USP, namely being the vaguely sane one of the two. For every Truss insanity (NIP, levelling down nurses' pay...), you can equally find a Sunak insanity (NIP, charging sick people for missed NHS appointments they probably didn't know they had..)

    I can see why even the tiny remaining cohort of sensible party members might go for Liz. She's completely bonkers, of course, but the alternative doesn't seem much more sane, and is terrible at politics to boot.

    Err, get the other stuff but fining people for missing GP appointments is insane?

    Not really mate. That was suggested in the coalition years under Cameron.

    Just like with 10p for plastic bags it's a sensible and efficient way of ensuring GP slots aren't wasted without a reasonable excuse.
    I think there's a bit of a difference between GP appointments (perfectly sound to fine people for not turning up), and dementia specialist appointments...
    Exactly.
This discussion has been closed.