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The real winner of tonight’s debate was Starmer & Labour – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 31 in General
The real winner of tonight’s debate was Starmer & Labour – politicalbetting.com

Conservative voters thought Truss did better (47% vs 38% for Sunak).Labour voters thought Sunak did better (41% vs 30% for Truss). pic.twitter.com/XsAnuzZBVX

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,777
    Nah, they were both much better than him.
  • DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,440
    2nd.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    'The real winner is [the opposing side]' is such a cliche.

    Yes, cliches can be true, but its unknowable how one of these two will do up against Starmer and co until they are actually doing it, implementing policies and so on, so we may as well focus on who won it amongst those who took part.

    From the figures Tory voters thought Truss won it, and even taken together it's basically a dead heat, evaporating Sunak's only trump card.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,709
    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    In what way?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,742
    I think Sunak would have caused more problems for Labour so Truss winning the leadership is good news for them .
  • nico679 said:

    I think Sunak would have caused more problems for Labour so Truss winning the leadership is good news for them .

    Meh I think they're about even
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,777

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
    It would be a pretty dull discussion if we all thought the same.
  • HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    What do you think about them compared to Starmer HY?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,426
    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    Are you warming to Truss and the thought of a Truss premiership ?
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
    It would be a pretty dull discussion if we all thought the same.
    Mordaunt is the one who scared me as a Labour voter
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,795
    After all that, I would spoil my ballot paper in the leadership election but I don't think JohnO will let me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    DavidL said:

    What Rishi did not get tonight was the clear win to get him back into the game. He might have done had he just controlled himself a bit better. Certainly on the economics he had the stronger answers but god, was he irritating.

    Yes. If he’d mentioned ‘helping my mother at the pharmacy’ one more time…

    Contrarily, however, I thought both candidates did OK. And both came across as sane and articulate and up-to-the-job

    Whoever really ‘shines’ in these debates?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,064
    edited July 25
    DavidL said:

    What Rishi did not get tonight was the clear win to get him back into the game. He might have done had he just controlled himself a bit better. Certainly on the economics he had the stronger answers but god, was he irritating.

    Yes, absolutely, a conclusive knock-out was in reach, but aggressive taunting self-indulgence relegated it to a modest win on points. But he’s still the Tories best bet and I will vote for him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    Are you warming to Truss and the thought of a Truss premiership ?
    I will still vote Sunak but she worries me far less than she did a year ago
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,438
    My conclusion, either candidate might make a pretty disastrous go of the job. However only Truss has the potential to significantly surprise on the upside.

    Sunak cares about nothing but delivering austerity economics with his glib and inappropriate nation’s credit card”. A shame he didn’t spend the last three years as Chief Sec to Treasury and learn a bit more before putting himself forward. I do buy to an extent Truss’s like that she’s learnt to take the Treasury advice with a pinch of salt, he hasn’t. He’s totally captured by them.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,414
    Wallace was the one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,102

    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    What do you think about them compared to Starmer HY?
    None of them match Boris for charisma, love him or loathe him
  • HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    Are you warming to Truss and the thought of a Truss premiership ?
    I will still vote Sunak but she worries me far less than she did a year ago
    Oh HY :( Why can't you ever just stick by anything
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,803

    After all that, I would spoil my ballot paper in the leadership election but I don't think JohnO will let me.

    Surely you need to do a write in for King Boris
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 3,239
    DavidL said:

    What Rishi did not get tonight was the clear win to get him back into the game. He might have done had he just controlled himself a bit better. Certainly on the economics he had the stronger answers but god, was he irritating.

    It was as if he’d taken the most annoying bits of Blair, Cameron and both Millibands with his mannerisms and he wouldn’t shut up.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,520
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    I would say that talking over a woman, and belittling their knowledge is where the transition from explaining to mansplaining happens.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    Looking at wiki the verb "to splain", is surprisingly over 200 years old.
    Equally, the concept and coining of the term (2 separate events) goes back only to 2008.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
    It would be a pretty dull discussion if we all thought the same.
    Mordaunt is the one who scared me as a Labour voter
    Mordidn’t is the one who scared me as a Conservative voter.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,777
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    In what way?
    They both made it clear that they believed in things. They both had clear and specific ideas what needs to be done economically, albeit different ideas. SKS's speech today was just painful. Pro Nationalisation or against? Lots of growth to avoid the choice between taxes and cuts but not the faintest idea where it is going to come from or what economic policies were going to engender it. Just absolutely awful.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    DavidL said:

    What Rishi did not get tonight was the clear win to get him back into the game. He might have done had he just controlled himself a bit better. Certainly on the economics he had the stronger answers but god, was he irritating.

    It was as if he’d taken the most annoying bits of Blair, Cameron and both Millibands with his mannerisms and he wouldn’t shut up.
    Yes. Exactly right
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,803
    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1551672266185998336

    "I strongly suspect that Liz Truss is still a Lib Dem remainer at heart but that she made a calculated career choice to go Tory, so this is all an act. It’s not even a particularly good act. If you are taken in by it, I have a bridge to sell you…"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,885

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    Are you warming to Truss and the thought of a Truss premiership ?
    I will still vote Sunak but she worries me far less than she did a year ago
    Oh HY :( Why can't you ever just stick by anything
    Be fair, he's going to be campaigning for a Truss 2nd term in two years' time - he's got to gradually accommodate himself to that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
    It would be a pretty dull discussion if we all thought the same.
    Mordaunt is the one who scared me as a Labour voter
    Might still get that chance to be scared of her before an election.....if PM Truss bombs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    edited July 25
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    I would say that talking over a woman, and belittling their knowledge is where the transition from explaining to mansplaining happens.
    That doesn't seem to work, since if the man in question would do it to a man as well then they didn't do so because their opponent was a woman. Indeed, if they would belittle and talk over an opponent, unless it was a woman, that would be patronising.

    Now, they shouldn't do that regardless of their opponents gender, and I believe Sunak was mansplaining based on reports, but the definition still seems rather nebulous to me. Unless it's something you can prove happens more in situations of X, then its hard to say X is the reason. If they do it for X and Y then X cannot be the reason.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,064
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    At least it raised their name recognition, Truss' in particular. Neither did too badly

    Are you warming to Truss and the thought of a Truss premiership ?
    I will still vote Sunak but she worries me far less than she did a year ago
    Yes, that’s fair, and my view too (though only up to a point as her stated economic policies are ludicrous and she will encounter fierce resistance from the Rees-Mogg, Dorries, Francois, Baker fruit-cakes if she pivots back towards the centre as PM).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591
    Time allowed for discussion of climate crisis: 1m56
    Time allowed for earrings, suits, etc etc: 5m45


    https://twitter.com/archiebland/status/1551675116022644736
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 6,282
    I can't remember who said it but apparently because there is online voting there is the possibility that China could hack in and alter the result. However it is thought unlikely that Beijing would be bothered to do so.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,803
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    I would say that talking over a woman, and belittling their knowledge is where the transition from explaining to mansplaining happens.
    What if he isn't explaining but is quoting from her or her advisers directly? Its mansplaining when its a man telling a more knowledgeable woman about things she knows more about. But what if she demonstrably knows less?

    One thing that was consistent in the hate fight was that every time anyone raised what Truss said or did, she looked like she was chewing a wasp. As Tim Farron says, she doesn't act like anythings she says is remotely true.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250

    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1551672266185998336

    "I strongly suspect that Liz Truss is still a Lib Dem remainer at heart but that she made a calculated career choice to go Tory, so this is all an act. It’s not even a particularly good act. If you are taken in by it, I have a bridge to sell you…"

    Lol. A dwarf speaks on the subject of ‘being quite tall’
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,414
    Just one more month of this leadership campaign to go. It’s exciting. 🤪
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,064

    After all that, I would spoil my ballot paper in the leadership election but I don't think JohnO will let me.

    Too bloody right.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    I'm not seeing it I'm afraid.

    I think Truss will actually do marginally better with the public but I am not concerned.
    It would be a pretty dull discussion if we all thought the same.
    Mordaunt is the one who scared me as a Labour voter
    And I think, Kemi Badenoch.
    It's difficult to convincingly change when it's the FS v the until recently CofE.
    I expect a bounce. And probably Tory poll leads.
    But, this will go the way of the Blair/Brown handover, rather than the May/Johnson one.
    Imho.
  • https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1551681956957794304

    After watching the debates:

    > 47% of viewers thought that Rishi Sunak would be a good prime minister,
    > while 45% thought Liz Truss would be a good prime minister.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573
    Test
  • Voters thought that Rishi Sunak came across as more competent and most trusted to handle the economy.

    Liz Truss was seen as more compassionate and trusted to tackle illegal immigration.

    Viewers thought that Liz Truss would be more likely to be more of a change (41%) than said the same about Rishi Sunak (24%).

    65% of viewers thought that Rishi Sunak would be more of the same.

    Over half (52%) of viewers thought that the candidates were mostly negative about their opponent's plans.

    Only 38% thought that they were mostly positive about their own plans.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,520
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    I would say that talking over a woman, and belittling their knowledge is where the transition from explaining to mansplaining happens.
    That doesn't seem to work, since if the man in question would do it to a man as well then they didn't do so because their opponent was a woman. Indeed, if they would belittle and talk over an opponent, unless it was a woman, that would be patronising.

    Now, they shouldn't do that regardless of their opponents gender, and I believe Sunak was mansplaining based on reports, but the definition still seems rather nebulous to me. Unless it's something you can prove happens more in situations of X, then its hard to say X is the reason. If they do it for X and Y then X cannot be the reason.
    The vox pops said it too. A bit like obscenity, people know it when they see it, even if at the edges it is a bit vague.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 29,938
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368

    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1551672266185998336

    "I strongly suspect that Liz Truss is still a Lib Dem remainer at heart but that she made a calculated career choice to go Tory, so this is all an act. It’s not even a particularly good act. If you are taken in by it, I have a bridge to sell you…"

    I'm not sure that works as either a serious point or a gag.

    "Vote LD, we're so good at being duplicitous one of us might become Tory PM"?
  • DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    Both candidates were streets ahead, and the credibility of tonight's debate was so much more serious than the one that got Starmer elected.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,777
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    What Rishi did not get tonight was the clear win to get him back into the game. He might have done had he just controlled himself a bit better. Certainly on the economics he had the stronger answers but god, was he irritating.

    Yes. If he’d mentioned ‘helping my mother at the pharmacy’ one more time…

    Contrarily, however, I thought both candidates did OK. And both came across as sane and articulate and up-to-the-job

    Whoever really ‘shines’ in these debates?
    Ronald Reagan did but they are all so much better coached these days.
  • DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    Both candidates were streets ahead, and the credibility of tonight's debate was so much more serious than the one that got Starmer elected.
    You've lost it. You had a good few months but it's back to normal after your re-programme
  • Let's see how Liz sorts out CoL, then let's see how the polls look
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,257
    Viewers thought that Liz Truss would be more likely to be more of a change (41%) than said the same about Rishi Sunak (24%).
    65% of viewers thought that Rishi Sunak would be more of the same.

    image
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,395
    At least 10,000 Tory members have signed the petition to get Boris on the ballot paper.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,713
    Liz did marginally better.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,957

    After all that, I would spoil my ballot paper in the leadership election but I don't think JohnO will let me.

    Surely you need to do a write in for King Boris
    Drawing a cock and balls will be construed as a Johnson write-in.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Well that is the nub of it - unless we see him in a one on one against a man then the charge could be totally wrong, and he was just being an arse (in an attempt to dominate), not a sexist arse.

    Since that is not happening he cannot correct the interpretation amongst those who got that impression. He needed that tactic to make him look strong, but it doesn't seem to have worked and has some downsides.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,605
    If Nandy was Labour leader, I think my vote would now be tilting quite strongly Truss-wards.

    However, she's not. And Sunak can hector Starmer at PMQs for two years without any damage being done, and then yell at him in the debates, and again no damage done. Ed Davey leads the LDs. so that's also fine, and if he ever has to debate Nicola, I'm sure the British public will forgive him talking over her, if it means we can't hear her.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Yeah, I’m really not sure it was ‘mansplaining’. It was just mildly annoying and ill-mannered, and made him look like the slightly desperate underdog. Which, of course, he is

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,573
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Yes, but it would have to be an equally dim male.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 3,239
    edited July 25

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    Andy_JS said:

    At least 10,000 Tory members have signed the petition to get Boris on the ballot paper.

    So somewhere between 5-10% of the membership? Sounds like it is getting way more attention than it deserves.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 424
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    Yes pejoratives tend to get overused, and tbh any use of pejoratives like "mansplaining" which reduce people's behaviour to their gender is overuse. If Sunak was being condescending, then we have a perfectly good word for that: condescending. Just as if a woman is being irritable, we can call her irritable rather talk about "her time of the month".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,257

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 3,239
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Yeah, I’m really not sure it was ‘mansplaining’. It was just mildly annoying and ill-mannered, and made him look like the slightly desperate underdog. Which, of course, he is

    I’m not sure it was mansplaining either. It was however horrendously patronising. In some ways I can’t blame him given who he was debating, but it did come across as discourteous and charmless.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 6,636
    edited July 25

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
    I don't think she's more charismatic than Starmer.

    I think she's leaps ahead in tackling the issues and having ideas, as is Sunak..

    How well or badly you think her ideas might go is up for political debate, but there is real substance there. What real substance from Keir's leadership debate is there that points to a policy a PM Keir might introduce?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    A male Truss?
    Transitioning now is probably the only way she/he/they/zhe could lose.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,426

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
    I don't think she's more charismatic than Starmer.

    I think she's leaps ahead in tackling the issues and having ideas, as is Sunak..

    How well or badly you think her ideas might go is up for political debate, but there is real substance there. What real substance from Keir's leadership debate is there that points to a policy a PM Keir might introduce?
    So how is Liz going to to sort out CoL

    Student debt

    The environment

    What are her policies on the above
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    It would be funny if there was a mighty polling cock up and actually Sunak does end up winning amongst members, who secretly agreed he was the best candidate.

    Not least because I could see the Truss/Boris crowd trying to legally challenge it.
  • Taz said:

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
    Yes fully agree.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,257

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
    Did they? BoJo is BoJo.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,946
    I think the mansplaining reaction is generational - as Foxy says, you know it when you see it.

    It's the hard stare, exasperation, rapid interruptions.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
    He did. He was a great PM for the first two years.

    But the pile up of issues became too much for him in the end and he had to go.
  • The important thing ultimately is what the seats that have heavily tended to Labour after the Tories won them, think
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,709
    edited July 25
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nah, they were both much better than him.

    In what way?
    They both made it clear that they believed in things. They both had clear and specific ideas what needs to be done economically, albeit different ideas. SKS's speech today was just painful. Pro Nationalisation or against? Lots of growth to avoid the choice between taxes and cuts but not the faintest idea where it is going to come from or what economic policies were going to engender it. Just absolutely awful.

    Agreed about Labour on the economy but the Tories don't have any idea on how to grow the economy either, evidenced by the rather poor performance of the UK on its watch. Or rather Sunak doesn't. Truss does have ideas but they are batshit - remains to be seen if they are just trotted out to get Conservative members of an ideological bent to vote for her or whether she will actually implement them, in which case UK would be grateful for Corbyn and his Venezuela tribute act.

    Labour is hamstrung by a commitment to a very hawkish, and in fact rather Conservative, fiscal policy, which leaves little scope for doing things on CoL, which is the biggest crisis facing the UK. Labour would do better than either Truss or Sunak on healthcare in England, which is the other big crisis.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
    He did. He was a great PM for the first two years.

    But the pile up of issues became too much for him in the end and he had to go.
    He broke the law.

    He was a terrible PM, this is not in dispute
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,821
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    At 9pm Mrs Al had a strong preference for Sunak if we must have a Tory PM. By 10pm she had a strong preference for Truss if we must have a Tory PM. Simply because of Sunak's behaviour; his constant interruptions and talking over Truss in the first 20 minutes. Public school, sexist arrogance according to Mrs Al. Not that she has any say, of course.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,777

    Time allowed for discussion of climate crisis: 1m56
    Time allowed for earrings, suits, etc etc: 5m45


    https://twitter.com/archiebland/status/1551675116022644736

    That really was ridiculous and both candidates in fairness said so.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
    I don't think she's more charismatic than Starmer.

    I think she's leaps ahead in tackling the issues and having ideas, as is Sunak..

    How well or badly you think her ideas might go is up for political debate, but there is real substance there. What real substance from Keir's leadership debate is there that points to a policy a PM Keir might introduce?
    So how is Liz going to to sort out CoL

    Student debt

    The environment

    What are her policies on the above
    Did you watch the debate?

    The first ten minutes was spent on CoL and Truss had plans - an immediate reversal of National Insurance and suspending the green levy on electricity were both mentioned. Specific policies that can be introduced.

    Student debt never came up.

    Environment mentioned technology etc which is the right answer.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 6,282
    Have any other well known economists apart from Patrick Minford come out in support of Truss's plans? That's what is keeping me awake at night. Is this not quite similar to the moment George Bush accused Ronald Reagan of voodoo economics?
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
    Did they? BoJo is BoJo.
    Yes plenty of people did. I remember reading it here.

    Starmer will always be boring

    Sunak will always be posh

    Truss will always be a bit odd
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    edited July 25

    Taz said:

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
    She could surprise on the upside and still be a bloody disaster.
    Yes, the 'surprise on the upside' idea only works if they not only exceed expectations but do so in a way that actually is positive.

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    I'm to believe that after 8 years in Cabinet (or thereabouts) she meaningfully grew as a politician as a result of a single debate against leadership opponents and improved herself in a week?

    Seems more plausible to me that she had a slightly off night is all.
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
    I don't think she's more charismatic than Starmer.

    I think she's leaps ahead in tackling the issues and having ideas, as is Sunak..

    How well or badly you think her ideas might go is up for political debate, but there is real substance there. What real substance from Keir's leadership debate is there that points to a policy a PM Keir might introduce?
    So how is Liz going to to sort out CoL

    Student debt

    The environment

    What are her policies on the above
    Did you watch the debate?

    The first ten minutes was spent on CoL and Truss had plans - an immediate reversal of National Insurance and suspending the green levy on electricity were both mentioned. Specific policies that can be introduced.

    Student debt never came up.

    Environment mentioned technology etc which is the right answer.
    So Labour’s policy then? How odd you didn’t praise it at the time
  • DavidL said:

    Time allowed for discussion of climate crisis: 1m56
    Time allowed for earrings, suits, etc etc: 5m45


    https://twitter.com/archiebland/status/1551675116022644736

    That really was ridiculous and both candidates in fairness said so.
    Yes a real load of crap from the BBC there
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 6,636
    edited July 25

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    Compare Truss's performance in the debate tonight with her performance in the first debate. She's someone who will grow in stature as PM.
    They said that about BoJo
    He did. He was a great PM for the first two years.

    But the pile up of issues became too much for him in the end and he had to go.
    He broke the law.

    He was a terrible PM, this is not in dispute
    He did which is why I said he had to go, lawmakers can't be lawbreakers. I said that.

    Even though he was a great PM. Him being terrible is in dispute, he was great overall but still had to go despite being great because he broke the law. Brexit, Trade Negotiations, Ukraine and Covid vaccines were all handled great. Covid lockdown he was too authoritarian, but better than every other country in Europe barring Sweden.

    So on all the big issues, the big calls were completely right in my eyes.

    I can't remember who coined it but the right epithet for Boris is he got the big calls right, but treated the small calls with utter contempt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,034
    Taz said:

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
    But imagine if she is as terrible as that first debate suggested, once in Downing Street.

    The pressure on Wallace would be immense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,250
    DavidL said:

    Time allowed for discussion of climate crisis: 1m56
    Time allowed for earrings, suits, etc etc: 5m45


    https://twitter.com/archiebland/status/1551675116022644736

    That really was ridiculous and both candidates in fairness said so.
    It’s also absurd to expect them to ‘solve climate change’ if they were given ‘three extra minutes’

    Time allowed for the End of the Ice Age: 1m 46s

    Time allowed for potential alien invasion: 12s

    Time allowed for the inevitable heat death of the universe: 0
  • I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    I think you’re right. There’s weirdly a potential upside to Truss - I think it’s unlikely and will go the same way as May and Brown (but worse) but you could at least see the argument for rolling the dice with her, whereas Sunak is a known quantity.
    I can totally see why the Tories are going for Truss.

    I just don’t think she’s any more charismatic than Starmer, that’s all
    I don't think she's more charismatic than Starmer.

    I think she's leaps ahead in tackling the issues and having ideas, as is Sunak..

    How well or badly you think her ideas might go is up for political debate, but there is real substance there. What real substance from Keir's leadership debate is there that points to a policy a PM Keir might introduce?
    So how is Liz going to to sort out CoL

    Student debt

    The environment

    What are her policies on the above
    Did you watch the debate?

    The first ten minutes was spent on CoL and Truss had plans - an immediate reversal of National Insurance and suspending the green levy on electricity were both mentioned. Specific policies that can be introduced.

    Student debt never came up.

    Environment mentioned technology etc which is the right answer.
    So Labour’s policy then? How odd you didn’t praise it at the time
    When did Keir say that NI would be reversed and the Green levy would be suspended?

    I must have completely missed that, if so. If he did, I'll take it back, but can you please link to Keir saying that?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,520

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Yes, but it would have to be an equally dim male.
    Truss cannot be quite as dim as she appears to be, after all she did get into Oxford from what she described as a failing comp.

    It is hard to put a finger on quite why she comes across as dim. I think it is her intellectual rigidity and poor communication skills, but May had those faults too, and didn't come over as dim.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808

    Taz said:

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
    But imagine if she is as terrible as that first debate suggested, once in Downing Street.

    The pressure on Wallace would be immense.
    If that were the case they'd take Gromit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,520
    edited July 25
    dixiedean said:

    Taz said:

    I think that's an excellent point, Liz has the best chance of surprising and doing a very good job.

    My gut - which was ultimately right about BoJo - says it won't happen

    Given expectations for her as PM seem to be so low there is plenty of potential upside for her and she may well surprise us.
    But imagine if she is as terrible as that first debate suggested, once in Downing Street.

    The pressure on Wallace would be immense.
    If that were the case they'd take Gromit.
    Gromit is the capable one in the partnership.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,742
    It’s amazing how you can be part of a government that you’re now slagging off as having broken its promises and get away with it .

    The Tories should have picked two candidates who weren’t right at the centre of the “ broken promises “.

    Sticking with Sunak and Truss will come back to bite the Tories . After a brief honeymoon as many have a sense of relief that Johnson has left no 10 the wheels are going to come off big time .



  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,368
    edited July 25
    Eabhal said:

    I think the mansplaining reaction is generational - as Foxy says, you know it when you see it.

    It's the hard stare, exasperation, rapid interruptions.

    The police regularly believe they know guilt when they see it too, but are often wrong. People are very bad at judging others. We see confident liars, and shady seeming truthspeakers.

    I don't think the reaction is generational, I've not seen the clips so might well agree he came across very badly (that does appear to be the consensus), but I am very wary of trusting a judgement which presumes on a person's motivations (intentional or otherwise) in a way we claim is 'proven' based on nothing more than gut feeling.

    Sure, that's ultimately how we judge things, but I personally feel better if we call it gut feeling rather than ascribing it some higher status because we 'know it when we see it'. That makes it sound like more than us engaging in mind reading.

    I bet we could find hundreds of examples of a politician or speaker saying something and being very confident we know what they intended, what was in their heart, and the prejudices driving them even unintentionally, and then discovering we were completely wrong.

    There was a light example of that sort of thing yesterday, with a presumption that people criticising the Rwanda scheme and making a dark joke about it must have been motivated by having an issue with Rwanda itself, when alternative explanations existed. The assumption of why people made the comments was misplaced.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 6,282
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    BBC vox pop accuses Rishi of mansplaining

    Though first two contributors thought Rishi destroyed Liz.
    Two sides of the same coin.
    Is it really mansplaining to point out your economic plans are fecking cuckoo land bonkers?
    Mansplaining is about how it is done.
    I know people are very big on clarity of perjorative terms, so other than subjective interpretation are there clear signs when someone is going from explaining to mansplaining? Especially given like any perjorative it might get overused.
    You need to ask yourself, was he more assertive and voluble because he was debating a woman?

    If yes, the mansplaining charge has legs.

    I'm unsure myself. I'd need to see him up against a male Truss as a control.
    Yes, but it would have to be an equally dim male.
    Truss cannot be quite as dim as she appears to be, after all she did get into Oxford from what she described as a failing comp.

    It is hard to put a finger on quite why she comes across as dim. I think it is her intellectual rigidity and poor communication skills, but May had those faults too, and didn't come over as dim.
    It's been suggested that it was actually a rather good school and perhaps more importantly she comes from an academic family.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,808
    Surprise on the upside? Potentially. Non -Tory swing voters don't seem to like her.
    Surprise on the downside? Tories (especially the ones who never reconciled to Boris) seem split on her.
    Both possibilities seem equally plausible to me.
This discussion has been closed.