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Why stoking the culture wars ensures a Tory shellacking – politicalbetting.com

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  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,899

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    O/T

    Stupidity at Old Trafford. All the scoreboards say "drinks" so no-one knows what the score is.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    Those are great questions. Is there somewhere where the other contestents answer them?

    We need more quickfire questions like these. It's a great way to narrow the field. The ECHR question is pivotal and Rwanda would be another. Separates the sane from the fruitcakes.
    I agree with you Roger. Tom’s answer to Net Zero 50, effectively “how can any sane person be against Net Zero 50, there isn’t any detail on policy to achieve it yet” is absolutely perfect answer at smashing his opponents in this issue.

    I don’t know if he can become PM from here this time, but there is no doubt at all Tom Tugendhat has won the actual campaign hands down.

    I mean, how could TSE and HY both have called it wrong to start with?
    Never mind them, he has had MY endorsement since day 1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022
    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    Those are great questions. Is there somewhere where the other contestents answer them?

    We need more quickfire questions like these. It's a great way to narrow the field. The ECHR question is pivotal and Rwanda would be another. Separates the sane from the fruitcakes.
    In fairness to broadcasters they ask what could be quickfire questions often, politicians simply won't answer them in such a fashion. Presumably they are only doing so here because they see value in setting out their stalls to party members on those points.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    dixiedean said:

    I get the impression Liz Truss decided decades ago that tax cuts were the solution.
    I suspect she hasn't given much thought recently as to which taxes, or why, or the downsides, or what they might achieve for your ordinary person?
    It's not dissimilar to those who say what we need is Socialism.

    This! Covid was the first time in my lifetime nearly all politicians were willing to look at the current problems and work out what the best solutions were.

    Instead they are much more comfortable with a single toolkit and applying it to each and every economic, social, technological and demographic scenario for their whole lifetime. It is madness.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    Maybe, being Chancellor he found out it was complicated?
    So decided not to bang on about it incessantly.
    "What we need is more Brexit. It hasn't been tried yet" type thing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    dixiedean said:

    MrEd said:

    You seriously think people like that matter to Labour? As far as the modern Labour party are concerned, they are at the bottom of the pile - white (I'm guessing) very low economic status who probably hold some very 'outdated' views when it comes to race, gay rights and trans issues.

    I agree modern capitalism has been awful at this (and I blame a lot of it on economics dressing itself up as an empirical science and pushing theories that don't work in practice) but the idea Labour cares about these people is laughable.



    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    I find the idea that someone northern and poor is automatically a knee-jerk bigot doesn't fit with my experience in the slightest.
    I think it was commentator Sunder Katwala who referenced something referred to as imputed racism. For example, where selectors who are mainly white might take a view that whilst they are not racist and wouldn't discriminate against black and asian candidates, their fear was that some voters would and so would play safe and shy away from such candidates in marginal seats, yet that fear was actually unfounded.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,606

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    I suspect for a set of fanatics Brexit isn't about Brexit but about having a permanent conflict with the EU.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    Firstly there are considerably less Brexiteers in the Red Wall than there were. When they voted the national figures were 52/49 now the polls suggest 40/60. What's more even Leavers now know there is no 'Leave Dividend'. No hangings or floggings or deportations. A damp squib really. Starmer has made a serious error of judgement though by not taking them on. It wa a fight he could have won
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    glw said:

    DavidL said:

    To get more growth we need to improve productivity. That is the key. It reduces inflation, increases wages, makes domestic production more competitive, reduces the pressure on the supply of labour. What do the candidates have to say about that?

    I can honestly say I don't recall ever hearing any British politician say something substantive about the issue. Identifying a problem is easy peasy. Fixing it, that's what we want to hear ideas about.
    Yes, I try to be fair on politicians, but I feel like I've been hearing about bloody productivity all my life and it is apparently as big a problem as it ever was, so apparently not one of them has any idea on how to improve it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    pm215 said:

    Someone here last time this was discussed said quite sensibly that you can just use excess wind power to push water up a hill, then let it roll down and generate power when the wind stops. That sounded fairly sensible. Not sure how much excess there is at present.

    Isn't the problem with that that we don't actually have very many suitable sites to do that in this country? We do it at Dinorwig and maybe one or two other places, but you need quite a bit of height difference and the ability to have a reservoir of water at top and bottom.
    Quite a few hills here in Scotland, lots in Wales too.
    But it's not just about having 'hills': it's about having the right conditions, both in terms of height and geology. Then wait until the environmentalists complain that the upper pond's are going to destroy the environment (and I do have some sympathy with that...)
    Well, clearly I don't have the information to say that's untrue, but the environment at the top of a lot of these hills is pretty bleak. Not much flora and fauna up there.
    The wild moorlands have an amazing biodiversity. Maybe not as much as the valleys, but a very different character. Then there's the aspect that peat in particular is a massive CO2 sink, and disturbing it can release that CO2.

    We've made a massive mistake sine WW2 in converting lots of these upland areas into monoculture forestry. If you want 'not muc flora or fauna', walk through an upland coniferous woodland. Rows of closely-packed trees, and underfoot a thick carpet of brown pine needles, with only the occasional fern and red mushroom to add colour.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,799

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I'd quibble with "it's clear to all sides it's been a catastrophe" - to me it still seems preferable to the alternative - but I'd be very interested to hear a Labour offer of making Brexit work.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,924
    edited July 2022

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    Those are great questions. Is there somewhere where the other contestents answer them?

    We need more quickfire questions like these. It's a great way to narrow the field. The ECHR question is pivotal and Rwanda would be another. Separates the sane from the fruitcakes.
    I agree with you Roger. Tom’s answer to Net Zero 50, effectively “how can any sane person be against Net Zero 50, there isn’t any detail on policy to achieve it yet” is absolutely perfect answer at smashing his opponents in this issue.

    I don’t know if he can become PM from here this time, but there is no doubt at all Tom Tugendhat has won the actual campaign hands down.

    I mean, how could TSE and HY both have called it wrong to start with?
    Tom is the most Cameron like candidate and TSE and I are right, he is most electable of the 5 as long as he doesn't leak too much to RefUK. However that is also probably why he won't win in a Conservative Party increasingly moving right
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    Probably thinking that he's not enthusiastic enough about cutting their taxes, then inventing other excuses not to like him. Out of thin air if necessary.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I refer you to my post on this the other day.

    Strategically Starmer has placed himself in the right place on Brexit for floating voters.

    But it's political: even if we were full members of the EU right now we'd still have exactly the same problems, including high inflation and depressed sterling.
  • HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,012
    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    I live my life mostly with Terry Pratchett quotes

    'You are in favour of the common people?’ said Dragon mildly.
    ‘The common people?’ said Vimes. ‘They’re nothing special. They’re no different from the rich and powerful except they’ve got no money or power. But the law should be there to balance things up a bit.'


    There was no difference at all between the richest man and the poorest beggar, apart from the fact that the former had lots of money, food, power, fine clothes, and good health. But at least he wasn’t any better.
  • Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I'd quibble with "it's clear to all sides it's been a catastrophe" - to me it still seems preferable to the alternative - but I'd be very interested to hear a Labour offer of making Brexit work.
    I think people think Brexit was wrong but they do not want it reversed, or to rejoin the EU. I especially do not.

    Making Brexit work is Labour's best chance, let's have some state aid policies to get renewables going, for example.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Stupidity at Old Trafford. All the scoreboards say "drinks" so no-one knows what the score is.

    This is what smartphones are for.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Its not that far back that Supermac campaigned successfully on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his government had built. The hyper-partisan aggro only really started in the 1970s. Yes, the extremes of policy and ideology have always been there. But making them mainstream is a reasonably new phenomenon.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    pigeon said:

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    Probably thinking that he's not enthusiastic enough about cutting their taxes, then inventing other excuses not to like him. Out of thin air if necessary.
    Sure I can see why prefer another candidate for other reasons, but in the right wing press he is being portrayed as soft as Brexit whereas Liz Truss who voted remain, is now seen as a proper Brexiteer. One table where they ranked their Brexitness had Sunak in the least Brexity group with Tugenhat.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    No. Starmer's limited, technical approach is the correct one. Europe is a priority for fringe nuts of both persuasions, not for the bulk of the electorate. Most people are sick of the subject, and not does it do him any good to start proposing significant integrationist measures which will allow a betrayal narrative to take root.

    The Tories, especially of the more loopy variety, would like nothing more than an excuse to use Brexit as a campaign theme yet again, and Starmer knows it.
    Indeed. Brexit being at 'risk' as a central campaign theme would be a sign of the Tories being in real trouble, in my opinion.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    2.7 Penny Mordaunt 37%
    6.4 Liz Truss 16%
    10.5 Kemi Badenoch 10%
    95 Tom Tugendhat
    110 Dominic Raab

    To make the final two
    1.08 Rishi Sunak 93%
    1.55 Penny Mordaunt 65%
    3.2 Liz Truss 31%
    7.2 Kemi Badenoch 14%
    100 Tom Tugendhat

    Betfair next prime minister:-
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    2.72 Penny Mordaunt 37%
    6.6 Liz Truss 15%
    10 Kemi Badenoch 10%
    90 Tom Tugendhat
    130 Dominic Raab

    To make the final two
    1.07 Rishi Sunak 93%
    1.55 Penny Mordaunt 65%
    3.35 Liz Truss 30%
    5.7 Kemi Badenoch 18%
    55 Tom Tugendhat

    Not much change in the win odds but in the final two betting, Kemi has shortened.
    Next PM
    2.7 Rishi Sunak 37%
    2.78 Penny Mordaunt 36%
    7 Liz Truss 14%
    9.4 Kemi Badenoch 11%
    85 Tom Tugendhat
    140 Dominic Raab

    To make the final two
    1.08 Rishi Sunak 93%
    1.54 Penny Mordaunt 65%
    2.62 Liz Truss 38%
    5.8 Kemi Badenoch 17%
    55 Tom Tugendhat
    Kemi is getting absurdly short.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 319
    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I refer you to my post on this the other day.

    Strategically Starmer has placed himself in the right place on Brexit for floating voters.

    But it's political: even if we were full members of the EU right now we'd still have exactly the same problems, including high inflation and depressed sterling.
    Although we would have our continued membership of the EU to blame it all on.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    edited July 2022

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Tuesday for me.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    In more Bonkers News (real or imagined) from the Tory war-room Kemi Badenoch has hit out at Ben & Jerry's owner Unilever for focusing on 'social justice at the expense of profits'.

    As Bernard Manning (or similar) once said. 'You Couldn't Make it Up!'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53741180

    This is a Priti Patel battle. KB strikes me more and more as a PP mini me. Not in a good way.
    Do we really believe B&J are focussing on social justice at expense of profits, or it’s a glib marketing campaign.

    Cummings will be revealed as the Brains behind Badenoch success. As Boris exits number 10, Gove and Cummings will be entering it. Dom will probably carry the same box through the front door much like Hitler used the same rail carriage for French surrender.
    Cummings is a dead duck. Utterly ineffectual trolling campaign against Johnson which contributed exactly zero to actually getting rid of him. Gove may be a different matter
    Gove is such an interesting figure. Kind of a mixture of Peter Mandelson, Keith Joseph and Ken Dodd.

    Is he playing 7d chess on this one? His Badenoch move certainly looks strong right now. Perhaps he'll emerge as Chancellor to whoever wins.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Tuesday for me.


    A near 20C drop in 24 hours?

    Must be a record.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I refer you to my post on this the other day.

    Strategically Starmer has placed himself in the right place on Brexit for floating voters.

    But it's political: even if we were full members of the EU right now we'd still have exactly the same problems, including high inflation and depressed sterling.
    Although we would have our continued membership of the EU to blame it all on.
    Exactly. We're looking for a scapegoat.

    We're not too interested in (difficult) solutions.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    In more Bonkers News (real or imagined) from the Tory war-room Kemi Badenoch has hit out at Ben & Jerry's owner Unilever for focusing on 'social justice at the expense of profits'.

    As Bernard Manning (or similar) once said. 'You Couldn't Make it Up!'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53741180

    This is a Priti Patel battle. KB strikes me more and more as a PP mini me. Not in a good way.
    Do we really believe B&J are focussing on social justice at expense of profits, or it’s a glib marketing campaign.

    Cummings will be revealed as the Brains behind Badenoch success. As Boris exits number 10, Gove and Cummings will be entering it. Dom will probably carry the same box through the front door much like Hitler used the same rail carriage for French surrender.
    Cummings is a dead duck. Utterly ineffectual trolling campaign against Johnson which contributed exactly zero to actually getting rid of him. Gove may be a different matter
    Gove is such an interesting figure. Kind of a mixture of Peter Mandelson, Keith Joseph and Ken Dodd.

    Apart from maybe the word 'interesting', which I would substitute for 'puzzling', that has to be one of the best sentences ever written on PB. Well done.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Yes. Places in the West, like Bath, will be a touch cooler, but still very hot on Tuesday, whereas places in the East will be even hotter on Tuesday.

    Fairly decent chance that the UK temperature record will be broken tomorrow, and then broken again on Tuesday, the second time over 40C
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,526
    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    In more Bonkers News (real or imagined) from the Tory war-room Kemi Badenoch has hit out at Ben & Jerry's owner Unilever for focusing on 'social justice at the expense of profits'.

    As Bernard Manning (or similar) once said. 'You Couldn't Make it Up!'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53741180

    This is a Priti Patel battle. KB strikes me more and more as a PP mini me. Not in a good way.
    Do we really believe B&J are focussing on social justice at expense of profits, or it’s a glib marketing campaign.

    Cummings will be revealed as the Brains behind Badenoch success. As Boris exits number 10, Gove and Cummings will be entering it. Dom will probably carry the same box through the front door much like Hitler used the same rail carriage for French surrender.
    Cummings is a dead duck. Utterly ineffectual trolling campaign against Johnson which contributed exactly zero to actually getting rid of him. Gove may be a different matter
    The problem with Cummings' opinions, as opposed to any revelations, is that he so clearly despises particular people it is impossible to not view his opinions on them as suspect. That applies to a degree in reverse, but he doesn't even attempt any kind of persuasiveness.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Its not that far back that Supermac campaigned successfully on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his government had built. The hyper-partisan aggro only really started in the 1970s. Yes, the extremes of policy and ideology have always been there. But making them mainstream is a reasonably new phenomenon.
    Zinoviev Letter? General Strike?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,526

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    Oo. Another quick Google. The Statute of Malborough 1267.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Marlborough
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,012
    Bring back Boris Eoin Morgan.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    Google states it is the Statute of Marlborough (1267), and its bits around the recovery of damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Marlborough#1,_4,_and_15_(Distress_Act_1267)

    Apparently the first statute was not passed until 1235, and Ireland has us beat with The Fairs Act 1204.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,899
    edited July 2022

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Best job in the world? Deliveroo driver in an air-conditioned car. Worst? Deliveroo on a bike.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,924
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,526
    kle4 said:

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    Google states it is the Statute of Marlborough (1267), and its bits around the recovery of damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Marlborough#1,_4,_and_15_(Distress_Act_1267)

    Apparently the first statute was not passed until 1235, and Ireland has us beat with The Fairs Act 1204.
    I wonder what qualifies as 'damages'? Fines for parking on private land?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Suspect most of us could find far more to agree on than to disagree.

    Almost all of us want a better future. We just disagree about certain details of how we get there.
    Who's the stroker who marked this 'off topic'?

    You couldn't fricking get more on-topic.

    It's why we're all here FFS.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Tuesday for me.


    I am on a max 40 to 41.9 at evens.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    Anyway, sod it. I'm gonna drink beer and Pimms.

    30C and a light breeze is bloody lovely.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,012

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Suspect most of us could find far more to agree on than to disagree.

    Almost all of us want a better future. We just disagree about certain details of how we get there.
    Who's the stroker who marked this 'off topic'?

    You couldn't fricking get more on-topic.

    It's why we're all here FFS.
    Probably somebody fat fingering. Easy done on a phone.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Bring back Boris Eoin Morgan.

    God that is so, so strange a comment. Eerie.
    Dreamt last night that I was talking with Stanley Johnson. I asked him what his son was thinking of doing now he was leaving Downing Street?
    Regaining his place as an all-rounder in the England side in time for the Ashes was his response.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,696
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and division of roles along gender lines, especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    Why would they care - dancers have talent regardless of the particular form they express it in. And your article says nothing about 'cancelling' ballet performances.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Suspect most of us could find far more to agree on than to disagree.

    Almost all of us want a better future. We just disagree about certain details of how we get there.
    Who's the stroker who marked this 'off topic'?

    You couldn't fricking get more on-topic.

    It's why we're all here FFS.
    Fat fingers I expect.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    HYUFD said:

    Labour has probably been presented here with its best chance to win an election in about 10 years. A Tory Party with no strategy and no ideas and no sense of where the country is and where it is going.

    It really is judgment time for Keir Starmer, if he can emulate Wilson he will win and win big. But otherwise he will lose.

    Keir I ❤️ Brexit I do Starmer - who has already blown his chance of being PM by now getting ZERO tactical votes from Lib Dems and Greens At the next election. That Keir Starmer?
    If Starmer cannot win back Leave voters in the redwall for Labour he won't win no matter how many tactical votes he gets
    so like CHB you think Keir has done brilliantly throwing himself in with Brexit?

    I’m with Mike Smithson, I think he has made a terrible mistake, you are focussing on a few red wall voters, who could have come back even without Starmer making his mistake - Mike and myself looking how he is shredding himself with 85% of his own Party members and 66% of the country who want action on the half baked, unfinished, and **** business Brexit deal - not a do nothing approach to it.

    My position is better than dopey Starmer’s. Fishing folk voted for Brexit. Fishing folk are now screwed by brexit. I just want to throw my arms around them, and help them. That is the only sane thing for opposition to say, not approach it as in or out.
    New Labour-style triangulation only works when TINA, but often there is. That said, there is also something to be said for avoiding the B-word.
    Labour should embrace the B-word - Make Brexit Work. Its clear to all sides that it has been a catastrofuck, we can't keep what we have and we can't rejoin. So we need something new.

    That way they highlight the stupidity of the people saying it's been a great success or that it hasn't and its all the fault of EU red tape. And of the people saying FBPE just rejoin. And engages the majority in the middle who just want to get on with their lives.

    My only problem with his position is saying no to the Single Market and the Customs Union. Whether we join these or not we will need a working relationship with them - which may yet be the nuanced approach but we're just guessing.
    I refer you to my post on this the other day.

    Strategically Starmer has placed himself in the right place on Brexit for floating voters.

    But it's political: even if we were full members of the EU right now we'd still have exactly the same problems, including high inflation and depressed sterling.
    Whilst I take your point about floating voters, there is a simple reality that we can't ignore - Brexit doesn't work. We first need to accept the reality of what has gone wrong with the "oven-ready deal" and then make changes.

    The problem for Labour is that too many of said floating voters have been persuaded that despite the self-evident failures, any attempt to even admit these exist is seen as a "threat to Brexit", that somehow we would rejoin the EU.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Suspect most of us could find far more to agree on than to disagree.

    Almost all of us want a better future. We just disagree about certain details of how we get there.
    Who's the stroker who marked this 'off topic'?

    You couldn't fricking get more on-topic.

    It's why we're all here FFS.
    Fat fingers I expect.
    I've been trying to pull that excuse for my posts for years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    kle4 said:

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    Google states it is the Statute of Marlborough (1267), and its bits around the recovery of damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Marlborough#1,_4,_and_15_(Distress_Act_1267)

    Apparently the first statute was not passed until 1235, and Ireland has us beat with The Fairs Act 1204.
    I wonder what qualifies as 'damages'? Fines for parking on private land?
    I love finding out about really mundane laws from a long time ago, a reminder that even with less of a state there was still plenty of minor concerns.

    I was reading a book on medieval London, and there was mention of laws against ovens (people would apparently make their dough and bring it to baker, and some were prosecuted for having a device to pinch bits of the dough), or how there were repeated laws against football, which demonstrate the law clearly wasn't being adhered to since later kings had to keep reissuing.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    They are not going to forget about CoL and economic competence because you droned on about ballet. I can tell you for a categorical fact that this is rubbish.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Anyway, sod it. I'm gonna drink beer and Pimms.

    30C and a light breeze is bloody lovely.

    20 here. Remarkably that's the coolest it's predicted to be till 4 am Wednesday.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,145
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
    Scandinavia and Holland would beg to differ. There people's life chsnces are tilted in their favour.

    Despite the rhetoric, you're much less likely to be lucky in terms of social mobility in the U.S., because in fact most of the time, it's not actually luck.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831

    Bring back Boris Eoin Morgan.

    They need to get the scoring rate back to test match levels. This is abysmal. I am also a bit concerned about how many spare brain cells Jos has.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    Google states it is the Statute of Marlborough (1267), and its bits around the recovery of damages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Marlborough#1,_4,_and_15_(Distress_Act_1267)

    Apparently the first statute was not passed until 1235, and Ireland has us beat with The Fairs Act 1204.
    I wonder what qualifies as 'damages'? Fines for parking on private land?
    I love finding out about really mundane laws from a long time ago, a reminder that even with less of a state there was still plenty of minor concerns.

    I was reading a book on medieval London, and there was mention of laws against ovens (people would apparently make their dough and bring it to baker, and some were prosecuted for having a device to pinch bits of the dough), or how there were repeated laws against football, which demonstrate the law clearly wasn't being adhered to since later kings had to keep reissuing.
    "The King's Oven" is still around in Corbridge.

    https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/hearse-house-and-kings-oven-corbridge/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,924
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
    Scandinavia and Holland would beg to differ. There people's life chsnces are tilted in their favour.
    The problem in this instance stemmed from hard drug addiction in the family, not pure capitalism (and we aren't a pure capitalist society anyway given almost 40% of gdp goes to the state).

    The Netherlands taxes a laxer approach to sale of drugs than we do, Sweden's drugs policy is similar to ours and more hardline with rehabilitation too
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459
    dixiedean said:

    Anyway, sod it. I'm gonna drink beer and Pimms.

    30C and a light breeze is bloody lovely.

    20 here. Remarkably that's the coolest it's predicted to be till 4 am Wednesday.
    It's 20 odd deg but humid as anything where I am
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    Public First have done a spreadsheet of the policies that candidates have floated:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GCunS_5nXkYmzxOkCOXQN3xzOt8gTCyIEpUClP7VjwY/edit#gid=0
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    Of course in Tory la la land ballet should only ever be usurped by cyber.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    He's in that unpleasant place one should always avoid if at all possible - between 2 stools. Stayed with Johnson so unclean to people who want to wish that whole episode away. Knifed him eventually so a sneaky traitor to those who either still like Johnson or who fetishize loyalty.

    But he's in with a great chance. Gun to head he's my prediction as we speak.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459
    The wokeys have come for ballet. Whatever will they take next!?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    Next ballot results will be 8pm tomorrow apparently.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Pro_Rata said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    Of course the Tories would much rather
    usurp ballet competitions for a cyber Hackathon. That was perfectly OK.
    Cutting funding to the arts councils is the perennial Tory go to when some easy cash is needed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    He's in that unpleasant place one should always avoid if at all possible - between 2 stools. Stayed with Johnson so unclean to people who want to wish that whole episode away. Knifed him eventually so a sneaky traitor to those who either still like Johnson or who fetishize loyalty.

    I think that is right, but it is still weird that that dislike has transformed into pretending he is a remainer traitor (as seen on here).
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    franklyn said:

    I am not a lawyer (thank goodness), but cannot understand how Johnson's dealings with Lebedev are not in breach of the Treason Act 1351, and in particular 'adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere'.
    The article in yesterday's Guardian by Carole Cadwaledr gives full details

    Yet another day on PB when I learn something new. When you posted this my first thought was that surely this must have been repealed/superseded long ago. But a quick Wiki (with apologies) shows it is still in force today.

    I wonder what the oldest act of Parliament still in force today is?
    The 907 "Boris Johnson Immunity" law passed by Edward the Elder.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    The wokeys have come for ballet. Whatever will they take next!?

    Morris Dancing.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    Next ballot results will be 8pm tomorrow apparently.

    I misread that as “next ballet results”.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459
    OnboardG1 said:

    Next ballot results will be 8pm tomorrow apparently.

    I misread that as “next ballet results”.
    Bigot
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    He's in that unpleasant place one should always avoid if at all possible - between 2 stools. Stayed with Johnson so unclean to people who want to wish that whole episode away. Knifed him eventually so a sneaky traitor to those who either still like Johnson or who fetishize loyalty.

    I think that is right, but it is still weird that that dislike has transformed into pretending he is a remainer traitor (as seen on here).
    Boris is both Borilicious in his own right, and the one true parfit embodiment of Brexit. You cannot knife the man without knifing the creed.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901
    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Its not that far back that Supermac campaigned successfully on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his government had built. The hyper-partisan aggro only really started in the 1970s. Yes, the extremes of policy and ideology have always been there. But making them mainstream is a reasonably new phenomenon.
    Zinoviev Letter? General Strike?
    I was talking post-war modern period. But you could argue that there was a consensus pre-WWII as well - Labour couldn't be trusted. A couple of brief periods in office surrounded by Lib/Con/National governments who all agreed that Labour were mentalists.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
    Scandinavia and Holland would beg to differ. There people's life chsnces are tilted in their favour.

    Despite the rhetoric, you're much less likely to be lucky in terms of social mobility in the U.S., because in fact most of the time, it's not actually luck.
    It is good to want to uplift people, but sometimes you can't. All you can really do is offer assistance and cooperation in their own decision to improve their life.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,924
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    They are not going to forget about CoL and economic competence because you droned on about ballet. I can tell you for a categorical fact that this is rubbish.
    Most 2019 Tory voters there will, for them CoL is not much of an issue as they are very rich, Brexit is an issue as most of them were Remainers admittedly but they also like the high arts and want to protect them.

    Remember the Tories kept control of Kensington and Chelsea council even in this year's local elections when they suffered lost councils elsewhere in London and the South
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Kemi moving in on Liz.

    Sunak 2.88
    Mordaunt 2.94
    Truss 6.8
    Badenoch 8.4

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    The wokeys have come for ballet. Whatever will they take next!?

    Soon they'll be telling me I can't slap my wife any more. Disgraceful.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Yes. Places in the West, like Bath, will be a touch cooler, but still very hot on Tuesday, whereas places in the East will be even hotter on Tuesday.

    Fairly decent chance that the UK temperature record will be broken tomorrow, and then broken again on Tuesday, the second time over 40C
    Cornwall's the place to be. Although the lucky holidaymakers who chose now to go there won't have done it in the expectation that it would be the coldest place in England, of course, it will nonetheless come as a blessed relief.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    I want to abolish the top down Whitehall inspired Stalinist housing targets - that’s the wrong way to generate economic growth.

    The best way to stimulate economic growth is bottom-up with tax incentives for investment and simplified regulations.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1548585397478883328

    This is a masterpiece of political ambivalence. Depending on what you put in "simplified regulations" it either means a glorious YIMBY orgy of construction, or that nobody will ever build another house.
    No one can build a new house where I have to see it. Simple.
    I'd be happy to drive down to yours and whitewash your windows if that helps?
    Yes, these are crowded islands with competing interests. Which is one of the reasons planning is not simple and cannot be unless some interests are just ignored. It is never simple and anyone claiming it can be made so is either simplistic or dishonest.
    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    42C+ on smarkets.com 11.5 looks value
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Quickfire round

    Tugendhat faces a round of quickfire questions.
    Would you intervene if China invade Taiwan?
    I would definitely support our Japanese, Indonesian and Philippine allies.
    Would you leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
    No.
    Will you build the whole of HS2?
    Yes.
    Are you fully committed by net zero by 2050?
    Fully committed. What I need now is the policy and the planning, and nobody has set it up yet.
    Would you privatise Channel 4?
    No
    Would you allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a generational decision - a generation hasn't passed.
    Would you work for a prime minster who has broken the law?
    Well I haven't worked for this one.
    Does the next PM have to come from outside Johnson's cabinet?
    We need a clean start.

    It's Mordaunt's turn for a round of quickfire questions.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would allow another referendum on Scottish independence?
    It's a settled question. No.
    Are you committed to net zero by 2050?
    Yes - but it has to not clobber people and must support levelling up .
    Will you privatise Channel 4?
    Not a priority for me.
    Would you give Boris Johnson a cabinet position?
    I don't think he'd be around to serve.
    Will you withdraw the UK from the ECHR?
    No.

    Tom’s answers may have been a tad stronger? But to what extent is this the candidate themself solely to blame, or the team around them can help them prepare better - rational thought through policy and strong forms of words?

    Was the HS2 question not asked for Penny?
    I have lifted this off of Sky, I was in a service when it was live, but it looks like they had tailored questions.

    Tom is actually saying, no, I won’t help Taiwan?
    The give Boris cabinet job is interesting. If he thought it was his best chance of a comeback, and Truss offered him Foreign Secretary, Boris would take it wouldn’t he? In fact right now it would sort of suit him and the Conservatives?

    Foreign Secretary Boris cannot be ruled out imo.
    In more Bonkers News (real or imagined) from the Tory war-room Kemi Badenoch has hit out at Ben & Jerry's owner Unilever for focusing on 'social justice at the expense of profits'.

    As Bernard Manning (or similar) once said. 'You Couldn't Make it Up!'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53741180

    This is a Priti Patel battle. KB strikes me more and more as a PP mini me. Not in a good way.
    Do we really believe B&J are focussing on social justice at expense of profits, or it’s a glib marketing campaign.

    Cummings will be revealed as the Brains behind Badenoch success. As Boris exits number 10, Gove and Cummings will be entering it. Dom will probably carry the same box through the front door much like Hitler used the same rail carriage for French surrender.
    Cummings is a dead duck. Utterly ineffectual trolling campaign against Johnson which contributed exactly zero to actually getting rid of him. Gove may be a different matter
    I think he was pivotal. He was the single reason I was reasonably certain Johnson would go before his time. He understands the art of persuasion like few others and he's very good at it. Selling Brexit single handedly was a work of marketing genius. I can think of very few campaigns that were as flawless (in hindsight)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    We must always apply the Bonkers Tory Party Member overlay to any analysis of potential next leader.

    As I keep reading (and posted yesterday an example of) there is a substantial number of such folk who viscerally despise Sunak.

    I still don't understand how he has ceased to be a hard Brexiteer in their eyes. An original Brexiteer who was content with no deal. What did he do wrong? Not bonkers enough compared to your typical "hard Brexiteer"? Sounds a bit too much like Cameron and Osborne? Toppled the Brexit God?
    He's in that unpleasant place one should always avoid if at all possible - between 2 stools. Stayed with Johnson so unclean to people who want to wish that whole episode away. Knifed him eventually so a sneaky traitor to those who either still like Johnson or who fetishize loyalty.

    I think that is right, but it is still weird that that dislike has transformed into pretending he is a remainer traitor (as seen on here).
    Boris is both Borilicious in his own right, and the one true parfit embodiment of Brexit. You cannot knife the man without knifing the creed.
    The Robespierre of the Revolution?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459
    edited July 2022

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    I want to abolish the top down Whitehall inspired Stalinist housing targets - that’s the wrong way to generate economic growth.

    The best way to stimulate economic growth is bottom-up with tax incentives for investment and simplified regulations.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1548585397478883328

    This is a masterpiece of political ambivalence. Depending on what you put in "simplified regulations" it either means a glorious YIMBY orgy of construction, or that nobody will ever build another house.
    No one can build a new house where I have to see it. Simple.
    I'd be happy to drive down to yours and whitewash your windows if that helps?
    Yes, these are crowded islands with competing interests. Which is one of the reasons planning is not simple and cannot be unless some interests are just ignored. It is never simple and anyone claiming it can be made so is either simplistic or dishonest.
    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.
    Who decides where something is "needed"?

    For example, NIMBYs don't think houses are "needed" anywhere near them, but they obviously are.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Are we still on hotter than hell for tomorrow?

    Tuesday for me.


    38 according to the Met Office.

    https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcqzwtdw7#?date=2022-07-17
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,267

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
    Scandinavia and Holland would beg to differ. There people's life chsnces are tilted in their favour.

    Despite the rhetoric, you're much less likely to be lucky in terms of social mobility in the U.S., because in fact most of the time, it's not actually luck.
    It is good to want to uplift people, but sometimes you can't. All you can really do is offer assistance and cooperation in their own decision to improve their life.
    There was a horrific and funny (if you like graveyard humour)story about the Nazi attempts to deal with social misfits - who were just as precedent then as today.

    They actually started from the premise of “saving” Aryans. So they tried all kinds of programs to rehabilitate alcoholics, support problem families etc. all surprisingly liberal and modern, really…

    The story went downhill from there. And ended up where you’d expect a Nazi social program to end up.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Kensington is going Red whatever happens, it went Red under Corbyn in 2017 it will go red again under Starmer. I don't think HYUFD has a clue about the makeup of this seat.

    Only certain if the boundary changes go through and even then Kensington voters will not want to cancel ballet as it becomes the latest Woke target
    What an utter load of nonsense, you've clearly spent very little time in this seat.

    Kensington cares about a few things: CoL, economic competence, honesty and trust. Your party is failing on all fronts.

    They are not interested in culture wars. You do not know your own voters any more.
    They do care about Ballet. Voters who live in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea have amongst the highest average earnings and highest education levels in the country and plenty of Tory voters there are strong supporters of high arts and cultue. Indeed that is more important for most of them than cost of living as most of them are very rich. Boris now going, dislike of his personality will also be less of an issue with the new leader.

    They will not take kindly to the news that the The Northern School of Contemporary Dance (NSCD) has dropped ballet from auditions as it is rooted in “white European ideas” and "division of roles along gender lines", especially if that spreads even to the Royal Ballet School and affects their beloved Royal Opera House.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/16/woke-dance-school-drops-ballet-auditions-white-elitist/
    Please don't answer if you'd rather not but that last pop seems quite personal.

    There's nothing nicer than a glass of champagne during the interval in the Floral Hall.

    Do I detect that some @HYUFD family members thought or think so also?

    Of course none of my goddamn business.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    I want to abolish the top down Whitehall inspired Stalinist housing targets - that’s the wrong way to generate economic growth.

    The best way to stimulate economic growth is bottom-up with tax incentives for investment and simplified regulations.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1548585397478883328

    This is a masterpiece of political ambivalence. Depending on what you put in "simplified regulations" it either means a glorious YIMBY orgy of construction, or that nobody will ever build another house.
    No one can build a new house where I have to see it. Simple.
    I'd be happy to drive down to yours and whitewash your windows if that helps?
    Yes, these are crowded islands with competing interests. Which is one of the reasons planning is not simple and cannot be unless some interests are just ignored. It is never simple and anyone claiming it can be made so is either simplistic or dishonest.
    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.
    Who decides where something is "needed"?

    For example, NIMBYs don't think houses are "needed" anywhere near them, but they obviously are.
    Nobody decides, people build stuff where they need it. That's that whole point.

    There are zones but they're pretty flexible, eg you can build a house in an industrial zone or a low-rise factory in a residential zone. Honestly this stuff works way better without the government micromanaging it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Eight years ago today, Russia shot down the MH17 airliner over Ukraine, killing 298 people.
  • novanova Posts: 690
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    It's not really possible to make life better for people who don't have any luck. The best that can be done for those people is to believe that their luck can change.
    That's a pretty shocking statement.

    If a family member came round to my house and started causing trouble, the police might get involved, but there's virtually no chance my neighbours complaints would get me thrown out of a house I own.

    When was the last time you were in a situation where you could have been hit in the face by a tire iron? Someone in the situation he's described is much more likely to be a victim of violence.

    Is there no world in which his mum was given more support as a heroin user when she was pregnant, or as a new mum?

    It may be that random luck pushes one person closer to the edge than another, but there are plenty of ways that a society can help make sure the edge is just that bit further away.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    I want to abolish the top down Whitehall inspired Stalinist housing targets - that’s the wrong way to generate economic growth.

    The best way to stimulate economic growth is bottom-up with tax incentives for investment and simplified regulations.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1548585397478883328

    This is a masterpiece of political ambivalence. Depending on what you put in "simplified regulations" it either means a glorious YIMBY orgy of construction, or that nobody will ever build another house.
    No one can build a new house where I have to see it. Simple.
    I'd be happy to drive down to yours and whitewash your windows if that helps?
    Yes, these are crowded islands with competing interests. Which is one of the reasons planning is not simple and cannot be unless some interests are just ignored. It is never simple and anyone claiming it can be made so is either simplistic or dishonest.
    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.
    Who decides where something is "needed"?

    For example, NIMBYs don't think houses are "needed" anywhere near them, but they obviously are.
    Yeah, well, that's LibDems for you.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    edited July 2022
    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    Jesus Christ.
    In case anyone was feeling unduly chipper, let me relate a conversation I just had.
    Walking down Great Ducie Street, Manchester, I saw an altercation between a gaunt looking fella in a tracksuit and a shabby looking old woman. I caught the eye of the fella, who apologised, and, in step, going in the same direction, explained himself: that was his mum, she was on heroin and couldn't sort himself out, and he was looking like being made homeless because she kept going round to his flat and causing trouble. And he was almost totally blind, as was his sister, having been born to a woman on heroin. And he had almost no teeth, since being hit in the face with a tire iron six months ago. And just one thing after another. Here was a fella who life took one gigantic shit on at the start followed by a succession of smaller but still substantial ones regularly along the way.
    I say this not to make any particular point but just to reflect on how unbelievably awful some people have it.

    A terrible tale. When I hear it, it reminds me why I vote Labour, that capitalism is not enough and that socialism would make a big difference. Capitalism is not kind to people who have bad luck.

    However, I also remember that history shows us that no single political ideology or that government has all the answers. So it's not as simple as voting left and all will be well. We need balance.

    So I really hope, somehow miraculously, our overall political culture manages to extract the best of right and left and maybe some new ideas and finds a way to make a better life for people with terrible luck.
    Thanks. I was trying to reflect on the politics of it, and what I would loosely term as 'my side' of politics doesn't have much of an answer to this situation. We can discourage it from arising by criminalising drugs and disincentivising the likes of his mother from having children, but that's never going to be wholly successful and isn't much consolation for the likes of this fella. But I don't think the left have a solution for this either apart from providing more resources for looking after the discarded pieces.
    Ultimately, politics mainly deals with the middle 96% and cases like this are perhaps more properly the domain of charity. (In Mamchester, we have a number of organisations dealing with matters of the bottom 2%, one of which is Big Change Manchester, which I think does a good job - I'm sure other cities have their equivalents. )
    One cheerier note, I have just bought a birthday card for my Dad from WHSmith. It featured a Matt cartoon. The assistant behind the counter was an antithesis of daily Telegraph reader - young, male, vaguely gothic, sparkly nail varnish - but enthusiastically announced that that was his favourite range and he absolutloves those cartoons.
    So perhaps the UK does still have something to hold us together: Matt cartoons.
    I would say that the first step is to avoid any politics that uses the poor as a scapegoat or dehumanises them. The poor are not scroungers or lazy. They are us. We are not where they are because of the roll of the dice.

    Once you establish that, you can move forward.
    Yeah. No different to anyone else. Except with less money. For more likely to hold "outdated" views the older they are. Which is logical after all.
    To be clear, the left can be guilty of dehumanising the poor.

    Historically, solutions were focussed on big government programmes delivered through faceless (often unaccountable) institutions with one size fits all approach.

    The view that the poor need to be pitied and saved is something that I have a bit of a problem with. That patrician view is not the worst sentiment in the world (and far better than doing nothing and has delivered some great progress), but it is another form of us vs. them.

    People who are poor and in the gutter are just the same as you and me. They need help and respect. They do not need to be looked down on. We are all the same and should help each other.
    Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I agree with you, and you're certainly patriotic.

    Maybe you and I should be a tad less partisan?

    More in common.
    Suspect most of us could find far more to agree on than to disagree.

    Almost all of us want a better future. We just disagree about certain details of how we get there.
    I'd say that's broadly true.

    For me, ref your story, a fundamental driver of being on the left is a belief that the biggest single determinant (by miles) of the relative material life outcomes of individuals is luck. Varying types of luck, not so much as in playing dice or the lottery, but as in circumstances, the most important being those of your birth. Where and to whom you are born.

    This is why I don't go for the personal aspiration, small state politics of the Thatcherite right. It's not really about how this translates into policies it's more that it feels not only wrong to me but harsh - because the flipside of falsely believing people's success is down to them is falsely believing their failure is also down to them. Things then flow from that. Often quite nasty things.

    That said, I vastly prefer this traditional brand of right wing politics - because I think it can be well meant and its analysis does sometimes have merit - to the national populist crap which has proliferated in recent times. This I find utterly toxic with barely a redeeming feature.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    I want to abolish the top down Whitehall inspired Stalinist housing targets - that’s the wrong way to generate economic growth.

    The best way to stimulate economic growth is bottom-up with tax incentives for investment and simplified regulations.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1548585397478883328

    This is a masterpiece of political ambivalence. Depending on what you put in "simplified regulations" it either means a glorious YIMBY orgy of construction, or that nobody will ever build another house.
    No one can build a new house where I have to see it. Simple.
    I'd be happy to drive down to yours and whitewash your windows if that helps?
    Yes, these are crowded islands with competing interests. Which is one of the reasons planning is not simple and cannot be unless some interests are just ignored. It is never simple and anyone claiming it can be made so is either simplistic or dishonest.
    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.
    Who decides where something is "needed"?

    For example, NIMBYs don't think houses are "needed" anywhere near them, but they obviously are.
    Parts of US have similar problems with housing costs and planning rules. US average house now 6x annual salary.

    This new piece on pricing in the US and the politics of markets and regulation is very interesting:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/17/opinion/inflation-prices-affordability.html
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    The quickfire questions that need be asked. Yes or no.


    1. Should we leave the ECHR?
    2. Should we abandon the Rwanda policy?
    3. Should we invoke article 16?
    4. Do you support Net Zero by 2050?
    5. Would you privatise Ch4?
    6. Would you rule out employing Priti Patel in your Cabinet?
    7. Would you employ Suella Braverman as Attorney General under any circumstances?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,653
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    JonWC said:

    I think TSE is wrong on this - at least for some aspects of the culture war. Even on a heavily "champagne" forum like this, I'm sure many of us are aware of some quite extraordinary things that have been said to children at schools, anecdotes worth as much as a the cited focus group. When it comes to a secret ballot with the government at stake I think the results may surprise.

    To borrow the Chilean saying, trans extremism is god's way of keeping the left out of power forever.

    The gamble for the Tories is this: as people get cold and hungry this winter, will the supposed threat of cock-wielding trans deviants persuade them to ignore their hunger and cold and the anger that generates towards the Tories, and instead be kept warm in a Mail-induced fury about bathrooms?
    But it's not really an either/or, it it? We'll be cold and hungry anyway. Gas has got much more expensive and no amount of accounting tricks will change that. Whereas we can choose whether we invite Stonewall in to our institutions to advance their gender agenda.
    But for the record, if government could either prevent food prices from doubling or stop schools from advancing their ultra-woke agenda, I would rather they stopped schools from advancing their ultra-woke agenda. I don't watch kids growing up with a sense of shame about being straight and white.
    If that was happening en masse then perhaps.

    But as it isn't...
    But it is, Rochdale. Or at least, in a sample size of 5 secondary schools I have visited recently, the incidence of it was 100%.
    If you infer the schools' orders of priorities from the visibility of display materials, they are:
    1) now you're in secondary school, you need to pick a sexuality and identity from this list. This is very important and if you're not sure it's probably because you're bi, rather than, you know, 11 or 12 and not actually sexual at all yet. Why not join the Rainbow Club?
    =2) woohoo for BLM! Mary Seacombe and Rosa Parks. Why not join the equality club?
    =2) the environment: we're all doomed.
    4) while you're here, if you want to indulge in a little education, or perhaps sport, that would also be fine.
    Seacole. Bloody autocorrect.
    I agree about autocorrect. I fail to see the problem with teaching kids about Mary Seacole.
    I must admit that I do find the focus on such an obscure figure rather odd.
    Surely Seacole is only 'an obscure figure' because she was overlooked for a century due to her skin colour. C.f. Florence Nightingale.
    But it's not as if Florence Nightingale was ever a core figure of primary school history.
    Mary Seacole is interesting largely through being the first non-white person of historical note in Britain. From this though the wrong conclusion is often drawn I.e. non-white people have just as big a role as white people but have been overlooked, rather than the conclusion that there were very, very few non-whute people in Britain before the second half of the twentieth century. The past looks very unlike the present. She is interesting precisely because she is unrepresentative.
    She was basically a good hearted camp follower, but there were black Britons of note before her. I would cite Cuffay as an example:

    https://www.tribunemag.co.uk/2020/07/william-cuffay-the-chartists-black-leader#:~:text=There can only be one,a freed slave from St.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    IshmaelZ said:

    It is my 61st birthday

    So if I had been born in 1900 I would now have lived to my actual dob. Except the cancer I had 10 years ago would have finished me off about the time of the second wsc government.

    Happy Birthday.

    May there be thick black hedges for many years to come.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,134

    Japan is crowded and has competing interests, it doesn't stop us having reasonably simple, objective planning rules that allow people to build things where they're needed. Of course some interests are just ignored - the government can't and shouldn't regulate everything for every possible purpose.

    I'm not a resident, but my impression has been that Japan's planning system tends to be a bit too far shifted in the other direction sometimes (allowing building of some pretty ugly buildings in Kyoto so its historic buildings end up isolated remnants in a sea of could-be-anywhere concrete, for instance).
This discussion has been closed.