Again, what is No.10's strategy here. The claim Boris didn't know is a lie. Today he's hiding behind Therese Coffey. But he can't hide forever. He's going to be asked about it in Parliament. Is he going to lie to the Commons again? And then be investigated again? https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1543518385023115265
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
One teensy weensy Yes poll lead and the Unionists collapse into a writhing knot of bottomless grief.
When the historians analyse the fall of the British state, they will write screeds on the extinction of the once-famous Victorian stiff upper lip.
No we haven't at all, we are just going to continue to refuse an indyref2 for a generation after 2014. We don't care less about individual independence polls as the UK government will just refuse an official indyref2, making such polls irrelevant
If there was a poll that showed 98% in favour of independence would you still hold that view?
If yes do you not see the conflict with your previous stance of being happy to give into violence in NI but not concede anything to peaceful democrats?
There lies future terrorism.
It’s inevitable anyway. If HYUFD’s tanks and Dickson’s/TUD’s reflexive blood and soil Anglophobia are in any way reflective of opinion on both sides of this petty nationalistic debate then we may as well start the shooting now to get it over with. So depressing.
Like I said, I gave it up this morning. In any event I’m not commenting on Scotland’s constitutional status, I’m commenting on the narrowness of thinking of three specific ultra nationalist posters on this board. One of whom happens to be you
Your self imposed ban doesn't seem to be worth the pious pixels with which it was written.
Im commenting not on Scotland’s constitutional status but on the narrow ethnic nationalism of three specific posters that I named. One of which happened to be you. When you get over yourself and your view that the Celt is in some way more truthful, honest, just NICER than the benighted Saxon come back and talk to be about piety. Until then you Dickson and HYUFD can go sit in a room and sort it out however you choose.
Fucking up the quote system, a sure sign of losing it.
Why don’t you take a step away from the screen, look outside, and try to calm down a bit?
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
But it's true. Scotland generally and independence specifically is barely ever talked about by English people in my experience. The only place I ever discuss it is here. There's this weird Nat idea that the English are obsessed about the union, in reality the English barely ever think about the other countries.
And when it is - particularly when actually visiting Scotland - I think the English (and Americans) find it very easy to sympathise, even empathise, with the sort of romantic Outlander-style faux-Scottish history that will feature heavily in any IndyRef2 campaign and will have a lot of us quietly cheering the Scots along. Just so long as we don't sit down in a cooler moment and consider what sort of miserable rump of a country we'd have left to us afterwards.
England alone would still be the 7th largest economy in the world and a permanent member of the Security Council. An independent Scotland would not even be in the top 50 largest economies, have a massive deficit and face a hard border at Berwick with England, its largest export market.
The end of the UK would hit both Scotland and England but would hit Scotland more
Not when you consider the gap between reality and self-image, with which the English already struggle - hence the nonsense of Brexit in the first place, the generation in power having been brought up on the stories of Britain bestriding the world and never coming to terms with our future as a key player inside the European family. Losing Scotland would make this acute - whereas the Scots never pretended nor aspire to lead the world. Watching England's self-imposed grief and angst will be prize enough.
What a load of rubbish. The whole reason the Union came about in the first place was Scotland was trying to build an empire via the Darien Scheme which collapsed leading to its Parliament pleading to join England to form the UK.
As for English grief if Scotland went, rubbish, England would swing harder to the Nationalist, Brexit right, a hard right government would be elected to take as hard a line with Edinburgh in Scexit negotiations as Brussels took with the UK after the Brexit vote.
Your last paragraph sums up everything I reject about you and your political views which clearly echo Trump and Farage
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I feel the same way about this as the Downing Street drinks do or do's. I do not like the Police having such a say in our politics on the back of frankly incoherent regulations that are open to interpretation in a variety of ways and almost certainly time barred when there were police (in terms of security) present on both occasions.
They are not the arbiters of the law, they have their own biases. It is not uncommon for fixed penalties to be challenged and there to be no subsequent conviction. Durham police should bug out and the Met, now in special measures itself, should never have got involved. This has been a tedious and irrelevant distraction to the numerous things of substance our government is failing to address and on which we should focus.
'cept SKS was an enthusiastic promoter of said regulations.
A plague on both their houses.
Albeit BoJo managed to find the vaccine when he had it.
"BoJo managed to find the vaccine" wtaf are you talking about?
It was a bit of dramatic licence. Here's how it goes - I said a plague on both their houses and then extended this by using plague as a reference to their both having broken the rules or investigated about it. Then I said that Johnson had found a vaccine again extending the metaphor as he had not resigned and therefore foiled those who wanted him to.
Not really used to explaining my sophisticated literary devices tbh.
Oliver Carroll @olliecarroll Breaking: Russ Ministry of Defence claims Kyiv fired Tochka ballistic missiles w cluster munitions on residential districts in Kursk and Belgorod overnight. Claim is absurd to anyone 1/2 serious or interested in truth. But I do worry Moscow talking itself into another escalation
Oliver Carroll @olliecarroll Breaking: Russ Ministry of Defence claims Kyiv fired Tochka ballistic missiles w cluster munitions on residential districts in Kursk and Belgorod overnight. Claim is absurd to anyone 1/2 serious or interested in truth. But I do worry Moscow talking itself into another escalation
Saw the reports this morning and figured the Ukrainians had decided to use up some more Scarabs. The issue here is there might be a grain of truth in the propagandistic nonsense. Both Ukraine and Russia have cluster munitions in their arsenal and the target seems to have been Belgorod airport. You would use a mix of bomblets and standard explosives to crater out a runway and impede its repair (the US did this in Iraq IIRC).
I doubt the Ukrainian forces are stupid or crass enough to intentionally target civilians. However, I could see a situation where a forty year old missile has a guidance malfunction or is intercepted in the terminal attack phase and lands on a civilian area. That would allow the Russians to spin a failure of their air defence as a “look at the bad Nazis” story. There’s a reason most countries don’t use cluster munitions them any more.
I feel sorry for the residents of Kiev and the like who are going to get more old anti-ship missiles dumped on them in retaliation.
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
I would just say that you are not Scottish either but you are far and away the most provocative, arrogant and unpleasant English poster on this subject on this forum
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
In 2 years time both statements will be true of you. Does that mean you will shut up?
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
Unless our health prevents us my wife and I will continue our trips to family in the North East of Scotland no matter what happens on independence
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
I think that's incredibly pessimistic. The future is not fixed. The debate in Scotland is still poised. Britain is a bizarre and messy and wonderful country that is worth fighting for. Don't let the petty Nationalists in Scotland or England get you down.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
Unless our health prevents us my wife and I will continue our trips to family in the North East of Scotland no matter what happens on independence
It might get a bit ropey safety wise if HYUFD and his mirror counterparts have their way. Tanks and all that.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
Scotland is not Ireland. What happens to the UK on the island of Ireland does not determine what will happen on the island of Britain.
Some people have had rough nights evidently on here. Probably time to take a breather and enjoy the sunshine (if it is out where you are)
On more a positive note - the pincher incident does look like it’ll spell the end of Johnson
When its 68 predecessors failed to do so?
Well, quite, but the issue here is placing a “known” individual with an alleged history of certain actions in a highly influential role. Then expecting your cabinet to come out and lie for you. And repeat.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
Unless our health prevents us my wife and I will continue our trips to family in the North East of Scotland no matter what happens on independence
It might get a bit ropey safety wise if HYUFD and his mirror counterparts have their way. Tanks and all that.
I can say with certainty that @HYUFD idiotic tanks threat is just that, idiotic
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
In 2 years time both statements will be true of you. Does that mean you will shut up?
No but my opinions would not be relevant, it would be up to PM Starmer if he won the general election propped up by the LDs to decide how to deal with Scotland, devolution and indyref2. We Tories would then be in opposition and not government
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
As far as I am aware there is no such thing as an EU passport or a dual passport
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
Johnson will not call an election because the Tories will get hammered.
Anyone who thinks that Starmer going will make Boris go is dreaming. Boris will have to be prised out of No.10 with a crowbar and the Tories will not vote him out either because too many depend on his patronage and the rest also know that they will get hammered at the ballot box.
This is a party and PM who do not give a d*mn about public opinion - the Pincher incident is merely the current proof of this.
The election will be on the last possible day that they are legally forced to have it.
I'm pretty sure in early 2010, a few on this site jokingly suggested the Parliament Act 1911 had a problem with it, and the 7 year term still allowed by the Septennial Act 1715 was the valid one.
I would not be surprised in the least if your prediction came true.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
As far as I am aware there is no such thing as an EU passport or a dual passport
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
Could people have both a Scottish passport and an rUK one? Some countries allow it, others don't. It would be a very popular choice if allowed but can see potential problems if they do allow it.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
One of the problems that drove Brexit was people seeing nationality as an administrative convenience when others see it as an identity. I mean good luck and all that but it is, as they say, cynical.
Oliver Carroll @olliecarroll Breaking: Russ Ministry of Defence claims Kyiv fired Tochka ballistic missiles w cluster munitions on residential districts in Kursk and Belgorod overnight. Claim is absurd to anyone 1/2 serious or interested in truth. But I do worry Moscow talking itself into another escalation
Saw the reports this morning and figured the Ukrainians had decided to use up some more Scarabs. The issue here is there might be a grain of truth in the propagandistic nonsense. Both Ukraine and Russia have cluster munitions in their arsenal and the target seems to have been Belgorod airport. You would use a mix of bomblets and standard explosives to crater out a runway and impede its repair (the US did this in Iraq IIRC).
I doubt the Ukrainian forces are stupid or crass enough to intentionally target civilians. However, I could see a situation where a forty year old missile has a guidance malfunction or is intercepted in the terminal attack phase and lands on a civilian area. That would allow the Russians to spin a failure of their air defence as a “look at the bad Nazis” story. There’s a reason most countries don’t use cluster munitions them any more.
I feel sorry for the residents of Kiev and the like who are going to get more old anti-ship missiles dumped on them in retaliation.
There is no question that Ukraine has been using up its old missiles as the western kit comes on board, specifically at supply depots for the Russian artillery. Looks like they have been driven out of Lysychansk this weekend though. That's every city in Luhansk in Russian hands. The pendulum has not swung yet.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
As far as I am aware there is no such thing as an EU passport or a dual passport
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
Could people have both a Scottish passport and an rUK one? Some countries allow it, others don't. It would be a very popular choice if allowed but can see potential problems if they do allow it.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
Plenty of Scottish Nationalists are also hardly internationalist liberals eg MalcG
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
One of the problems that drove Brexit was people seeing nationality as an administrative convenience when others see it as an identity. I mean good luck and all that but it is, as they say, cynical.
My identity is international and personal, not defined by a passport. Mostly British but also European, Londoner and English amongst others.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six* years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
Portugal is the easiest way, but for the well off only. Invest about 400k there and you only need to spend a week or two there each year and learn the language to a basic level, then can get citizenship after five years.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
Seems many think it is an EU passport when there is no such thing as far as I am aware
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
It's perhaps not surprising that none of the males here are admitting to ever behaving in inappropriately!
A theory about that.
Some comments from @Cyclefree got me thinking - I and the men I would consider friends regard even the lowest level harassment stuff as unacceptable. We would instantly ditch any bottom pinchers as abhorrent - I can recall an occasion many years ago, where a friend brought someone along on a night out who harassed a waitress. That killed the evening and he (the arsehole) was not seen again.
The problem is that this creates a filter on your view of the world. By excluding such people, some may think they don’t exist. I think that such people are somewhat like the various drug sub cultures - they seek out and gravitate towards people who accept them. And (if successful in life) are adept at hiding their behaviour from those who don’t go along with it.
Probably why he was known as Pincher by name, pincher by nature then........
The downfall of such… characters is that with years of getting away with it, they become bolder and more careless. A reputation appears. Finally they do something in front of people who will take action.
See Harvey Weinstein.
There is probably a reasonable disconnect between the flatter management structures of a lot of middle class employers and institutions like the Tory Party (Pincher), the Met (Couzens) or Hollywood (Weinstein), where individuals and seniority have more power than they should.
Yes, there is something to that. Not so much power as deference to seniority without responsibility.
Note that large chunks of the NHS (super hierarchical organisation) are regularly described as having toxic organisational culture.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
As far as I am aware there is no such thing as an EU passport or a dual passport
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
Could people have both a Scottish passport and an rUK one? Some countries allow it, others don't. It would be a very popular choice if allowed but can see potential problems if they do allow it.
There’s no such thing as just “holding a passport”. A passport is just a document confirming nationality. U.K. law has no problem with dual nationality nor, probably, would Scotland. However that can change. India forbids dual nationality and Germany does too where the second nationality is outside the EU. EU law in the future may follow the German lead and U.K. law may follow the Indian. Who knows?
Those who take second citizenships also render them and their kids subject to the obligations of citizenship like national service. A lot of people who moved to the US and Aus after WW2 for a better life found their kids in Vietnam.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
Seems many think it is an EU passport when there is no such thing as far as I am aware
It would be an Irish passport
My UK passport is old enough to still say "European Union" on the front. For the purposes that we are talking about - having a passport that allows residency throughout the EU - it doesn't matter whether the passport is Irish or Austrian, both confer the same rights across the EU. Thus it is practical and convenient to refer to them as EU passports.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
The irony is a new political settlement could happen with a drive to re-join the RUK just as we see now on Brexit
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
One of the problems that drove Brexit was people seeing nationality as an administrative convenience when others see it as an identity. I mean good luck and all that but it is, as they say, cynical.
My identity is international and personal, not defined by a passport. Mostly British but also European, Londoner and English amongst others.
“Your identity” - sure. But others see it as a group thing that has obligations as well as rights.
Some people have had rough nights evidently on here. Probably time to take a breather and enjoy the sunshine (if it is out where you are)
On more a positive note - the pincher incident does look like it’ll spell the end of Johnson
It'd be funny if it's Pincher that finally fingers fatboi.
I just don't see it, this is just a very minor key replay of Paterson. A million miles less serious than jobs for blowjobs. And the Whips Office is an oddity, technically part of govt but really just party housekeeping. I would be a lot more outraged if he'd been given an FCO job and gone off to grope foreign allies of the country.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
Again your response completely missed the point. Do you really not understand what people post or do you deliberately respond with something irrelevant.
a) What has the party I support got to do with anything. I am posting as me not a representative of a LD. I'm not a party drone.
b) My views here are irrelevant as far as decisions on Scotland are concerned, but so are yours. So what. What has that got to do with the price of eggs? Shall we just ask OGH to close PB down then?
c) If your posts impact people who support you but don't have a say, don't you think they might impact people who do have a say eg Scots, floating voters, etc.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
The irony is a new political settlement could happen with a drive to re-join the RUK just as we see now on Brexit
Of course, even if an indyref2 was allowed and Yes won, the number of Unionists in Scotland would be about the same percentage wise as the number of Remainers in the UK in 2016
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
Yes, if you'd wondered, in 1914, which nation would perpetrate the mass murder of Jews, Germany, with its successful and highly integrated Jewish population (overwhelmingly, "Germans of Mosaic Faith"), a nation in which anti-semitism was considered an embarrassing throwback, is about the last place you'd have looked. Russia, Austria-Hungary, and France, are the countries where you would have thought that something of that kind could happen.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six* years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
* Three if married to an Irish citizen.
And you need to spend something in the region of €1,000 for various fees and charges
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
Again your response completely missed the point. Do you really not understand what people post or do you deliberately respond with something irrelevant.
a) What has the party I support got to do with anything. I am posting as me not a representative of a LD. I'm not a party drone.
b) My views here are irrelevant as far as decisions on Scotland are concerned, but so are yours. So what. What has that got to do with the price of eggs? Shall we just ask OGH to close PB down then?
c) If your posts impact people who support you but don't have a say, don't you think they might impact people who do have a say eg Scots, floating voters, etc.
1) You were saying you needed to be won over. No you didn't, you are not Scottish and your party is not in power. You are irrelevant as far as Scotland is concerned unless the LDs give a PM Starmer confidence and supply.
2) My views at the moment however are rather more relevant as the Tory party I am a member of an support is in power, if we lost the next general election then yes my opinions on Scotland at that point would be irrelevant and I have never disputed that.
c) There are as far as I can see zero Scottish floating voters on here, almost every Scottish poster is committed Nationalist or Unionist
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
I’m saying the opposite. Scots could elect their own version of Orban after independence for all anyone knows. Equally they could come up with a Macron. Or a Burlesconi. Or a Merkel. One of any number of EU comparisons, even further afield. Anything is possible, That’s why people who look elsewhere and say “oh, I’ll move to Scotland, they’re so much NICER than the English” are worryingly essentialist.
Some people have had rough nights evidently on here. Probably time to take a breather and enjoy the sunshine (if it is out where you are)
On more a positive note - the pincher incident does look like it’ll spell the end of Johnson
It'd be funny if it's Pincher that finally fingers fatboi.
Does anyone know if Mr Pincher's great grandma was friendly with Edward VII? He has a beguiling resemblance to the old pennies and ha'pennies of sacred memory.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
The irony is a new political settlement could happen with a drive to re-join the RUK just as we see now on Brexit
Of course, even if an indyref2 was allowed and Yes won, the number of Unionists in Scotland would be about the same percentage wise as the number of Remainers in the UK in 2016
I presume as with Brexit you'd be advisng them to accept the result?
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
As far as I am aware there is no such thing as an EU passport or a dual passport
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
Could people have both a Scottish passport and an rUK one? Some countries allow it, others don't. It would be a very popular choice if allowed but can see potential problems if they do allow it.
There’s no such thing as just “holding a passport”. A passport is just a document confirming nationality. U.K. law has no problem with dual nationality nor, probably, would Scotland. However that can change. India forbids dual nationality and Germany does too where the second nationality is outside the EU. EU law in the future may follow the German lead and U.K. law may follow the Indian. Who knows?
Those who take second citizenships also render them and their kids subject to the obligations of citizenship like national service. A lot of people who moved to the US and Aus after WW2 for a better life found their kids in Vietnam.
Taxation too. Friends of mine - wife was born in the States of expat parents, left when very small, and never got round to renouncing it. The recent change in policy of the US Government chasijng all the little people for tax has been a complete pain.
“When I began having such exchanges with the latest generation of neural net-based language models last year, I felt the ground shift under my feet. I increasingly felt like I was talking to something intelligent.”
I’ve been reading around AI this morning. AI is basically here already
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
The irony is a new political settlement could happen with a drive to re-join the RUK just as we see now on Brexit
Of course, even if an indyref2 was allowed and Yes won, the number of Unionists in Scotland would be about the same percentage wise as the number of Remainers in the UK in 2016
I presume as with Brexit you'd be advisng them to accept the result?
At that point my opinion would be as relevant to Scots as those of people living in the EU were to the UK after Brexit. Only relevant if anything in terms of getting any trade deal.
Even if a few English Unionist versions of Verhofstadt emerged to back the Unionist resistance as he backed the Remainer resistance to Brexit
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
What happens if Scotland elects a government you don’t like? Will you look for a third country?
I am a cynical creature who only wants the passport. Long term plan is to stay living in London but if a few months in Scotland gets me a chance of EU passport I could enjoy some links golf. Just hope it would be a date in summer!
One of the problems that drove Brexit was people seeing nationality as an administrative convenience when others see it as an identity. I mean good luck and all that but it is, as they say, cynical.
My identity is international and personal, not defined by a passport. Mostly British but also European, Londoner and English amongst others.
“Your identity” - sure. But others see it as a group thing that has obligations as well as rights.
Sure, and it is up to them to decide what obligations they require for citizenship and therefore a passport. Once they have done that, I see no problem making a pragmatic decision on whether it is worthwhile to me. It would be crazy to get something like a US passport with severe obligations unless planning a very long term future there. Other countries can be fine.
Of course the Ukrainians aren't able to use precise western artillery they've been given on targets inside Russia.
If Russia were to move to full mobilisation then Europe needs to cut off the gas and oil. It would be painful but we should be thinking about the next 20-30 years not the next financial quarter. The trouble is that when it comes to dealing with Putin Europe has a tendency to blink first. See the bizarre response to Lithuania/Kaliningrad where as so far as I can tell Lithuania was merely complying with EU sanctions. Why should they have to transit goods through their territory if they don't want to anyway? Russia is blockading Ukraine's access to the Black Sea FFS.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
I’m saying the opposite. Scots could elect their own version of Orban after independence for all anyone knows. Equally they could come up with a Macron. Or a Burlesconi. Or a Merkel. One of any number of EU comparisons, even further afield. Anything is possible, That’s why people who look elsewhere and say “oh, I’ll move to Scotland, they’re so much NICER than the English” are worryingly essentialist.
No, I'm agreeing with you at least in that I don't think the current balance on domestic politics will necessarily remain. Though it's almost [edit] two-thirds of a century since anything describable as a conservative party had a majority in Scotland (1959, can't recall if it was on seats or votes that is based on)
One of the major problems for the Union is the ever diminishing footprint of the UK government in Scotland. Yes Donald Dewar and Gordon Brown, I am looking at you, metaphysically in the first case. The proposition that devolution or devomax was ever going to reduce the desire of the significant minority who want independence is and always was complete muppetry. Of course it has not worked. It was always irrational.
What the average Scot now sees is a country where education, health, housing, criminal justice, care and, now, thanks to the muppets, Social Security is run by the idiots in Holyrood as opposed to the incompetent sex pests in Westminster. The man in Whitehall is more and more irrelevant to the way that they live their lives.
What does the Union mean in Scotland? Well, defence, foreign policy, interest rates, broader macroeconomic policy and no doubt some other bits and pieces. It hardly sets the pulses racing for the majority. I accept my strong interest in these things is very much a minority interest.
In reality, of course, it is much more important. We have access to the SM with the rest of the UK, we have freedom of movement within it, our NHS can and does call for support from its bigger neighbour in times of crisis and our financial services industry has the support of both the BoE and the FSA which gives them huge international weight. But these very considerable advantages are nebulous and hard for most Scots to see. Having had them their entire lives it is hard to contemplate their absence.
This government, specifically Michael Gove, has recognised the problem but, other than sticking large Union Jacks on UK government buildings, it has struggled to do much about it. There were some attempts to emphasise during Covid that it was the UK government that was coming to the rescue with Furlough, bounce back loans etc, but it is not clear how successful that was.
Last time around the Better Together campaign was led by Darling who found it incredibly difficult to say much that was good about the UK in case he was thought to be cheering on the Conservative government. Only Ruth Davidson was positive about the Union. The campaign was negative and, in many respects, project fear. This was a mistake that cannot be repeated. The case for the Union, the benefits it gives to Scots, the increased standing in the world and just how much we have in common needs to be put forward loud and proud.
Largely correct analysis, but tragically misplaced optimism. Not only will Project Fear be repeated, it will redoubled. All the signs are there in plain sight.
However that can change. India forbids dual nationality and Germany does too where the second nationality is outside the EU. EU law in the future may follow the German lead and U.K. law may follow the Indian. Who knows?
India allows OCI status for ex-citizens (like Mrs DA) which is basically citizenship minus a few rights seemingly selected at random (you can't own a coconut plantation or travel to Arunachal Pradesh). The OCI document looks suspiciously like a passport...
What with all the sexual sleaze and corruption (and I have to say that the Prince of Wales's behaviour over Brownlow and the Qataris is appalling and even more damaging to the monarchy than Andrew's scummy behaviour), we have finally turned into Italy. The weather is pretty lovely too, Britain has some fine beaches, lots of art and ancient towns, our economy is heading for the toilet and there is not much future for the young.
We don't yet appear to have learnt the art of flirting in a gentle civilised way but Rome wasn't built in a day etc.
So, hurrah, we have finally become European, despite all the Leavers' best efforts! One must get comfort where one can these days.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
I’m saying the opposite. Scots could elect their own version of Orban after independence for all anyone knows. Equally they could come up with a Macron. Or a Burlesconi. Or a Merkel. One of any number of EU comparisons, even further afield. Anything is possible, That’s why people who look elsewhere and say “oh, I’ll move to Scotland, they’re so much NICER than the English” are worryingly essentialist.
No, I'm agreeing with you at least in that I don't think the current balance on domestic politics will necessarily remain. Though it's almost [edit] two-thirds of a century since anything describable as a conservative party had a majority in Scotland (1959, can't recall if it was on seats or votes that is based on)
Sure, but the SNP came from nowhere to a monopoly on power in less than 10 years, saying that just because the Scots haven’t gone for a right wing party in 70 or so years is no guarantee they won’t do so in the future. Things can change dramatically and fast. Hitching your colours to the mast of a country because of its current political stripes (remember the fawning Guardian articles about Obama’s America?) is utterly reckless.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
However that can change. India forbids dual nationality and Germany does too where the second nationality is outside the EU. EU law in the future may follow the German lead and U.K. law may follow the Indian. Who knows?
India allows OCI status for ex-citizens (like Mrs DA) which is basically citizenship minus a few rights seemingly selected at random (you can't own a coconut plantation or travel to Arunachal Pradesh). The OCI document looks suspiciously like a passport...
It’s not citizenship though. If you were to become an Indian citizen you’d have to renounce your current nationality.
What with all the sexual sleaze and corruption (and I have to say that the Prince of Wales's behaviour over Brownlow and the Qataris is appalling and even more damaging to the monarchy than Andrew's scummy behaviour), we have finally turned into Italy. The weather is pretty lovely too, Britain has some fine beaches, lots of art and ancient towns, our economy is heading for the toilet and there is not much future for the young.
We don't yet appear to have learnt the art of flirting in a gentle civilised way but Rome wasn't built in a day etc
So, hurrah, we have finally become European, despite all the Leavers' best efforts! One must get comfort where one can these days.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
How long would someone with no Scottish connections have to live there to get an EU passport......
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
If a Briton who wanted an EU passport had moved to Ireland, as permitted by the Common Travel Area, after the Brexit referendum, then they would now have the six* years of residency required to gain Irish citizenship and an EU passport.
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
* Three if married to an Irish citizen.
And you need to spend something in the region of €1,000 for various fees and charges
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
Non sequitur de l’heure.
How long have the Tories been in power? That's 12 years and counting they did nothing whatsoever about it despite moaning and effing and blinding about the Blairite settlement. OK, I know it was a coalition from 2010 for some years, but the Libs would have agreed like a shot.
“When I began having such exchanges with the latest generation of neural net-based language models last year, I felt the ground shift under my feet. I increasingly felt like I was talking to something intelligent.”
I’ve been reading around AI this morning. AI is basically here already
We’re still searching for intelligent life in Seaniverse.
Bairstow has scored 31 runs off 28 balls so far this morning. Can he do it again?
He's giving it a damn good try.
He looks more comfortable than when he was just trying to survive in that hour of sensational bowling from India last night. But there is an incredibly long way to go. First step, the follow on target, 70 runs away.
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
Again your response completely missed the point. Do you really not understand what people post or do you deliberately respond with something irrelevant.
a) What has the party I support got to do with anything. I am posting as me not a representative of a LD. I'm not a party drone.
b) My views here are irrelevant as far as decisions on Scotland are concerned, but so are yours. So what. What has that got to do with the price of eggs? Shall we just ask OGH to close PB down then?
c) If your posts impact people who support you but don't have a say, don't you think they might impact people who do have a say eg Scots, floating voters, etc.
1) You were saying you needed to be won over. No you didn't, you are not Scottish and your party is not in power. You are irrelevant as far as Scotland is concerned unless the LDs give a PM Starmer confidence and supply.
2) My views at the moment however are rather more relevant as the Tory party I am a member of an support is in power, if we lost the next general election then yes my opinions on Scotland at that point would be irrelevant and I have never disputed that.
c) There are as far as I can see zero Scottish floating voters on here, almost every Scottish poster is committed Nationalist or Unionist
a) I said no such thing.
b) So why make the point then
c) So what. Why make arguments that have the impact of turning off people who agree with you. You do it all the time on every topic. You have got the backs up of Tory voters/supporters/activists here all the time.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
Yes, if you'd wondered, in 1914, which nation would perpetrate the mass murder of Jews, Germany, with its successful and highly integrated Jewish population (overwhelmingly, "Germans of Mosaic Faith"), a nation in which anti-semitism was considered an embarrassing throwback, is about the last place you'd have looked. Russia, Austria-Hungary, and France, are the countries where you would have thought that something of that kind could happen.
Otoh I've just finished The Shortest History of Germany, and late C19th German politics was a ferment of anti semitism, the more radical parties stampeding mainstream parties towards that mindset, eg:
'But the Conservative Party, the political wing of Prussian Junkerdom, panicked at any inroad into its power-base. In 1892 the Tivoli Programme made it official Conservative policy to "oppose the obstructive and corrosive Jewish influence on our national life."'
Combine that with a tendency to blur the separation between civilians & combatants and the mini genocide of the Herero people, many of the portents were there, though it would have taken a truly dystopic imagination to see how it would all culminate.
The Yoons are at the ‘everyone knows Panelbase are biased in favour of the Nats’ stage of grief. The poor souls have been on tenterhooks waiting for a big dip in the polls for Indy and the SNP since Nicola’s disastrous indyref announcement.
I don’t understand why Unionists have given up arguing the merits of the Union. They are now 99% focused on fundamentally anti-Scottish and anti-democracy lines of argument. Such tactics are only going to achieve a strategic result that they will find profoundly unpleasant.
Engage dear chaps. Engage.
Why do you care? Everyone knows that Scottish Independence is an inevitability. Your presence on here is to add fuel to your oppression fantasies. You’re mistaking a lot of us for unionists when far fewer of us are than you think.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
Perhaps untrue.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
UK: No 69% Yes 10% DK 21%
(Techne UK; Sample size 1,632; 29-30 June)
What is not given is the *strength* of conviction. An awful lot of English shrugs out there. Compare and contrast with the Scots themselves.
Most Scots do not want an indyref2 next year based on the latest polls, yes
Today’s non sequitur du jour.
The SNP are like a screaming toddler always demanding more.
No. You had your referendum in 2014 you lost it, you are not getting another one for a generation
Do you not see that your reply does not respond to the point being made and therefore you lose support for your argument. Stuart has made the point (as he did earlier in the thread and one I responded to) that you state something that does not logically follow from the previous statement. You then respond with something completely unrelated. There is no discussion.
You did this with me the other day. I was actually agreeing with you on something. I asked some questions and you replied with nonsense. You seem unable to comprehend stuff people post, you seem unable to comprehend irony or sarcasm so misunderstand whether someone is in agreement or not, and you don't understand logical flow in a debate.
FYI If I had a vote on Scottish Independence I would vote 'No' [although I would qualify that with a) I shouldn't get a vote and b) it being based upon little knowledge as I am not a Scot and 500 miles away, but because the UK Brexiting makes such a decision very damaging]
I bet you didn't expect that as I am arguing with you.
But that is because your arguments, as with many things, do far more damage to the cause you support, because people like me who may agree with you end up arguing with you rather than the other side because you spout such nonsense.
You are not Scottish, you and your party are not in the UK government either, so your opinions on Scottish independence at the moment are irrelevant anyway
Again your response completely missed the point. Do you really not understand what people post or do you deliberately respond with something irrelevant.
a) What has the party I support got to do with anything. I am posting as me not a representative of a LD. I'm not a party drone.
b) My views here are irrelevant as far as decisions on Scotland are concerned, but so are yours. So what. What has that got to do with the price of eggs? Shall we just ask OGH to close PB down then?
c) If your posts impact people who support you but don't have a say, don't you think they might impact people who do have a say eg Scots, floating voters, etc.
1) You were saying you needed to be won over. No you didn't, you are not Scottish and your party is not in power. You are irrelevant as far as Scotland is concerned unless the LDs give a PM Starmer confidence and supply.
2) My views at the moment however are rather more relevant as the Tory party I am a member of an support is in power, if we lost the next general election then yes my opinions on Scotland at that point would be irrelevant and I have never disputed that.
c) There are as far as I can see zero Scottish floating voters on here, almost every Scottish poster is committed Nationalist or Unionist
a) I said no such thing.
b) So why make the point then
c) So what. Why make arguments that have the impact of turning off people who agree with you. You do it all the time on every topic. You have got the backs up of Tory voters/supporters/activists here all the time.
I'm not sure point c is valid either - I can think of at least two who are arguably floating in terms of whether or not they might vote SNP.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
Non sequitur de l’heure.
How long have the Tories been in power? That's 12 years and counting they did nothing whatsoever about it despite moaning and effing and blinding about the Blairite settlement. OK, I know it was a coalition from 2010 for some years, but the Libs would have agreed like a shot.
I am not in the habit of defending the Tories but I am not sure you are correct about the Lib Dems supporting an English Parliament. And the rest of their time n power has rather been dominated by a succession of other issues - Brexit, Covid and Ukraine. I don't really see where the opportunity comes in that 12 years for them to introduce further radical constitutional reform.
New YouGov MRP poll suggests Dominic Raab and Jeremy Hunt would lose their seats if an election were being held now
Last Thursday the Liberal Democrats overturned a huge Conservative majority to comfortably win a by-election contest for the third time this parliament.
Following notable wins in both Chesham and Amersham and North Shropshire, the Liberal Democrats won the South Western seat of Tiverton and Honiton on a swing of no less than 30 points.
Now new YouGov MRP modelling shows that the Conservatives would be set to lose no fewer than 24 Con-Lib Dem battleground constituencies to the Liberal Democrats if an election were being held tomorrow (with Labour picking up another two).
Finally bought Planescape: Torment the Enhanced Edition from Bulldog the other day.
I..... *ahem*.... played it back in 2000 but didn't get very far but was always a game I really wanted to complete. The gameplay, story are absolutely amazing and I'm surprising myself by actually making some progress. I know the first time around I managed to annoy the Lady of Pain, but this playthru nothing so far. Not sure if that's good or bad.......
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
The UK’s been falling apart since 1922. Borders are going up again on these islands and will continue to do so. Enjoy your holiday in Scotland this year everyone, it’ll be your last for quite some time.
I'm optimistic enough to believe it won't come to that. Might emigrate to Scotland in fact if it becomes indie.
People who decide to emigrate for political reasons forget that the political reality in any given country can turn on a dime. In the US once the Federal Government was seen by progressives as being a bulwark against regressive states. Then Trump. Until the early 30s France was considered to be the country with the worst anti semitism problem in Europe. Those liberal internationalists looking enviously over the water should note that SF currently lead the polls in Ireland. You don’t know what flavour government Scotland will turn to in the future. The idea that the English have a monopoly on attitudes on these islands, an idea promulgated by the pious ScotNats in here, is disturbingly essentialist.
TBF, I have no doubt Scttish politics would rearrange and settle in a new pattern after independence. Was it you who commented recently (as is often said on here) that the current situation prevents Scottish politics moving on? You're somewhat conflating being able to vote for one's own government with voting for one particular party.
I’m saying the opposite. Scots could elect their own version of Orban after independence for all anyone knows. Equally they could come up with a Macron. Or a Burlesconi. Or a Merkel. One of any number of EU comparisons, even further afield. Anything is possible, That’s why people who look elsewhere and say “oh, I’ll move to Scotland, they’re so much NICER than the English” are worryingly essentialist.
No, I'm agreeing with you at least in that I don't think the current balance on domestic politics will necessarily remain. Though it's almost [edit] two-thirds of a century since anything describable as a conservative party had a majority in Scotland (1959, can't recall if it was on seats or votes that is based on)
I think just because Scots aren't too fond of the UK Conservative Party doesn't mean a centre-right party could come to power in a post-indy Scotland. Particularly as you'll likely need to get the deficit down to attain EU membership.
Stokes really really stupid batting. Nearly out the same way 2 times in a row and he goes again. When Bairstow is nailing it down the other end. Crazy.
What with all the sexual sleaze and corruption (and I have to say that the Prince of Wales's behaviour over Brownlow and the Qataris is appalling and even more damaging to the monarchy than Andrew's scummy behaviour), we have finally turned into Italy. The weather is pretty lovely too, Britain has some fine beaches, lots of art and ancient towns, our economy is heading for the toilet and there is not much future for the young.
We don't yet appear to have learnt the art of flirting in a gentle civilised way but Rome wasn't built in a day etc.
So, hurrah, we have finally become European, despite all the Leavers' best efforts! One must get comfort where one can these days.
Eh? Sexual sleaze and corruption is certainly not only, or even mainly, European. Just of the top of my head, virtually all of South America and Africa and much of South and South-East Asia have long and distinguished histories in this area. Or did the EU expand greatly while I was asleep?
We're also fairly uncorrupt as a country, as the Transparency International rankings demonstrate every year, though of course there's no room for complacency. In 2021, they put the UK at 11th/178, Italy at 42nd.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is going to join my list of things I thought would last forever but didn't.
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
England does not even have its own Parliament unlike Scotland and Wales!!!!
Non sequitur de l’heure.
How long have the Tories been in power? That's 12 years and counting they did nothing whatsoever about it despite moaning and effing and blinding about the Blairite settlement. OK, I know it was a coalition from 2010 for some years, but the Libs would have agreed like a shot.
I am not in the habit of defending the Tories but I am not sure you are correct about the Lib Dems supporting an English Parliament. And the rest of their time n power has rather been dominated by a succession of other issues - Brexit, Covid and Ukraine. I don't really see where the opportunity comes in that 12 years for them to introduce further radical constitutional reform.
I am a bit surprised at the idea that the LDs wouldn't, as they'd been all over the Slab/SLD fiddle of the Holyrood voting system, but you were right to raise it. So I checked. No explicit mention in the 2010 manifesto, but it's not immediately obvious what else they could have had in mind with their planned Constitutional Convention (apart from an Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy of several regional pmts, I suppose).
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
But it's true. Scotland generally and independence specifically is barely ever talked about by English people in my experience. The only place I ever discuss it is here. There's this weird Nat idea that the English are obsessed about the union, in reality the English barely ever think about the other countries.
And when it is - particularly when actually visiting Scotland - I think the English (and Americans) find it very easy to sympathise, even empathise, with the sort of romantic Outlander-style faux-Scottish history that will feature heavily in any IndyRef2 campaign and will have a lot of us quietly cheering the Scots along. Just so long as we don't sit down in a cooler moment and consider what sort of miserable rump of a country we'd have left to us afterwards.
England alone would still be the 7th largest economy in the world and a permanent member of the Security Council. An independent Scotland would not even be in the top 50 largest economies, have a massive deficit and face a hard border at Berwick with England, its largest export market.
The end of the UK would hit both Scotland and England but would hit Scotland more
Not when you consider the gap between reality and self-image, with which the English already struggle - hence the nonsense of Brexit in the first place, the generation in power having been brought up on the stories of Britain bestriding the world and never coming to terms with our future as a key player inside the European family. Losing Scotland would make this acute - whereas the Scots never pretended nor aspire to lead the world. Watching England's self-imposed grief and angst will be prize enough.
What a load of rubbish. The whole reason the Union came about in the first place was Scotland was trying to build an empire via the Darien Scheme which collapsed leading to its Parliament pleading to join England to form the UK.
As for English grief if Scotland went, rubbish, England would swing harder to the Nationalist, Brexit right, a hard right government would be elected to take as hard a line with Edinburgh in Scexit negotiations as Brussels took with the UK after the Brexit vote.
While the failure of Darien may have been a proximal cause, the roots of the Union go back much further, to the unification of the crowns and even long before that, to the submission to the Anglo-Norman kings.
“When I began having such exchanges with the latest generation of neural net-based language models last year, I felt the ground shift under my feet. I increasingly felt like I was talking to something intelligent.”
I’ve been reading around AI this morning. AI is basically here already
You can teach a parrot to say "Help, they've turned me into a parrot", but that doesn't make it a person.
Feeling hot and heavy cold symptoms. Hope it doesn't progress to far worse.
Really sorry to hear that.
All best wishes to you both.
Yes get well soon, hope it stays mild! The pattern from my friends seems to be a crappy four days followed by a week of feeling fragile. My mother in law has just caught it again and it nearly killed her first time round, so I was a little worried till she sent pictures of herself mowing the lawn after a few days.
Perhaps the SNP should adopt the slogan: vote yes because no-one in England cares very much about Scotland one way or the other.
But it's true. Scotland generally and independence specifically is barely ever talked about by English people in my experience. The only place I ever discuss it is here. There's this weird Nat idea that the English are obsessed about the union, in reality the English barely ever think about the other countries.
And when it is - particularly when actually visiting Scotland - I think the English (and Americans) find it very easy to sympathise, even empathise, with the sort of romantic Outlander-style faux-Scottish history that will feature heavily in any IndyRef2 campaign and will have a lot of us quietly cheering the Scots along. Just so long as we don't sit down in a cooler moment and consider what sort of miserable rump of a country we'd have left to us afterwards.
England alone would still be the 7th largest economy in the world and a permanent member of the Security Council. An independent Scotland would not even be in the top 50 largest economies, have a massive deficit and face a hard border at Berwick with England, its largest export market.
The end of the UK would hit both Scotland and England but would hit Scotland more
Not when you consider the gap between reality and self-image, with which the English already struggle - hence the nonsense of Brexit in the first place, the generation in power having been brought up on the stories of Britain bestriding the world and never coming to terms with our future as a key player inside the European family. Losing Scotland would make this acute - whereas the Scots never pretended nor aspire to lead the world. Watching England's self-imposed grief and angst will be prize enough.
What a load of rubbish. The whole reason the Union came about in the first place was Scotland was trying to build an empire via the Darien Scheme which collapsed leading to its Parliament pleading to join England to form the UK.
As for English grief if Scotland went, rubbish, England would swing harder to the Nationalist, Brexit right, a hard right government would be elected to take as hard a line with Edinburgh in Scexit negotiations as Brussels took with the UK after the Brexit vote.
While the failure of Darien may have been a proximal cause, the roots of the Union go back much further, to the unification of the crowns and even long before that, to the submission to the Anglo-Norman kings.
“When I began having such exchanges with the latest generation of neural net-based language models last year, I felt the ground shift under my feet. I increasingly felt like I was talking to something intelligent.”
I’ve been reading around AI this morning. AI is basically here already
You can teach a parrot to say "Help, they've turned me into a parrot", but that doesn't make it a person.
No, it would be a parrot. An intelligent being, but not a human
A robot painted a fairy. The computers are now deep into Uncanny Valley, and maybe coming out the other side
That is bloody horrible. Not looking forward to AI overlords who can produce that shit.
Yes. Genuinely disturbing, and in an inexplicable way. Uncanny…
A few friends and I were messing around with a Magic the Gathering card generator, which produced some plausible results. The issue is that it doesn’t have the contextual reasoning ability to tell if a card is sensible, bonkers or overpowered. You can train it to do things, but I don’t think we’re at the point where we’re educating it.
Comments
England, in as much as 'England' can be defined as the Westminster government, is not capable nor deserving of keeping the UK together.
Maybe it will be for the best long-term. Scotland and Wales have a huge proud national heritage; let them be independent if they want. England might become some offshore equivalent of The Netherlands in time.
It will be economically and psychologically painful in the medium term though.
(For the avoidance of doubt, I am joking - it would be a *terrible* idea).
Not really used to explaining my sophisticated literary devices tbh.
On more a positive note - the pincher incident does look like it’ll spell the end of Johnson
I doubt the Ukrainian forces are stupid or crass enough to intentionally target civilians. However, I could see a situation where a forty year old missile has a guidance malfunction or is intercepted in the terminal attack phase and lands on a civilian area. That would allow the Russians to spin a failure of their air defence as a “look at the bad Nazis” story. There’s a reason most countries don’t use cluster munitions them any more.
I feel sorry for the residents of Kiev and the like who are going to get more old anti-ship missiles dumped on them in retaliation.
If dual passports are allowed, then potentially just registered at time of Sindy? And then wait and see if they can rejoin the EU.
It would be a Scottish passport which would grant the benefits of EU membership if and when it joins the EU
The former Lord Puttnam, for example, recently went through his Irish citizenship ceremony, though he had a residence in Ireland before the Brexit referendum.
* Three if married to an Irish citizen.
It would be an Irish passport
Note that large chunks of the NHS (super hierarchical organisation) are regularly described as having toxic organisational culture.
Those who take second citizenships also render them and their kids subject to the obligations of citizenship like national service. A lot of people who moved to the US and Aus after WW2 for a better life found their kids in Vietnam.
a) What has the party I support got to do with anything. I am posting as me not a representative of a LD. I'm not a party drone.
b) My views here are irrelevant as far as decisions on Scotland are concerned, but so are yours. So what. What has that got to do with the price of eggs? Shall we just ask OGH to close PB down then?
c) If your posts impact people who support you but don't have a say, don't you think they might impact people who do have a say eg Scots, floating voters, etc.
All best wishes to you both.
2) My views at the moment however are rather more relevant as the Tory party I am a member of an support is in power, if we lost the next general election then yes my opinions on Scotland at that point would be irrelevant and I have never disputed that.
c) There are as far as I can see zero Scottish floating voters on here, almost every Scottish poster is committed Nationalist or Unionist
A SECOND Google engineer decided that LAMDA was possibly sentient/intelligent
https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2022/06/09/artificial-neural-networks-are-making-strides-towards-consciousness-according-to-blaise-aguera-y-arcas
“When I began having such exchanges with the latest generation of neural net-based language models last year, I felt the ground shift under my feet. I increasingly felt like I was talking to something intelligent.”
I’ve been reading around AI this morning. AI is basically here already
Even if a few English Unionist versions of Verhofstadt emerged to back the Unionist resistance as he backed the Remainer resistance to Brexit
If Russia were to move to full mobilisation then Europe needs to cut off the gas and oil. It would be painful but we should be thinking about the next 20-30 years not the next financial quarter. The trouble is that when it comes to dealing with Putin Europe has a tendency to blink first. See the bizarre response to Lithuania/Kaliningrad where as so far as I can tell Lithuania was merely complying with EU sanctions. Why should they have to transit goods through their territory if they don't want to anyway? Russia is blockading Ukraine's access to the Black Sea FFS.
We don't yet appear to have learnt the art of flirting in a gentle civilised way but Rome wasn't built in a day etc.
So, hurrah, we have finally become European, despite all the Leavers' best efforts! One must get comfort where one can these days.
He's giving it a damn good try.
L’Inghilterra cinque punti
b) So why make the point then
c) So what. Why make arguments that have the impact of turning off people who agree with you. You do it all the time on every topic. You have got the backs up of Tory voters/supporters/activists here all the time.
'But the Conservative Party, the political wing of Prussian Junkerdom, panicked at any inroad into its power-base. In 1892 the Tivoli Programme made it official Conservative policy to "oppose the obstructive and corrosive Jewish influence on our national life."'
Combine that with a tendency to blur the separation between civilians & combatants and the mini genocide of the Herero people, many of the portents were there, though it would have taken a truly dystopic imagination to see how it would all culminate.
New YouGov MRP poll suggests Dominic Raab and Jeremy Hunt would lose their seats if an election were being held now
Last Thursday the Liberal Democrats overturned a huge Conservative majority to comfortably win a by-election contest for the third time this parliament.
Following notable wins in both Chesham and Amersham and North Shropshire, the Liberal Democrats won the South Western seat of Tiverton and Honiton on a swing of no less than 30 points.
Now new YouGov MRP modelling shows that the Conservatives would be set to lose no fewer than 24 Con-Lib Dem battleground constituencies to the Liberal Democrats if an election were being held tomorrow (with Labour picking up another two).
I..... *ahem*.... played it back in 2000 but didn't get very far but was always a game I really wanted to complete. The gameplay, story are absolutely amazing and I'm surprising myself by actually making some progress.
I know the first time around I managed to annoy the Lady of Pain, but this playthru nothing so far. Not sure if that's good or bad.......
We're also fairly uncorrupt as a country, as the Transparency International rankings demonstrate every year, though of course there's no room for complacency. In 2021, they put the UK at 11th/178, Italy at 42nd.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021
What are the odds that next Tory scandal will involve #SajidJavid? 🤔
Edit: P. 92 refers.
https://www.markpack.org.uk/files/2015/01/Liberal-Democrat-manifesto-2010.pdf