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Tories drop to new low in Ipsos “fit to govern” tracker – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited July 2022 in General
imageTories drop to new low in Ipsos “fit to govern” tracker – politicalbetting.com

Of all the recent polling that has been published the above chart from Ipsos looks the most worrying for the Tories and not just the incumbent at number 10.

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,195
    edited July 2022
    Furst?
    Or first even.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,258
    Johnson has to go and his mps need to act or better still his cabinet
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    How much longer, before someone comes out with a new band - Cancel Culture Club
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    Johnson once again caught out defending the indefensible. What a time to be British.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022
    Last nights by elections
    Both Scottish Island byes went to Indies as expecred.
    LDs picked up 2 Tory seats, one in Goblin Bercow's old haunt of Buckinghamshire although it should be noted this was a three member Green, Con, Con vote last time so its LDs taking from first placed Greens last time although it was thd 2nd placed Con who's seat was being fought. Strong LD performance, Weak Con, and Greens will i think be disappointed not to have won it.
    The other was Bridlington with a massive swing but note that no LDs stood in May 2019 3 member ward and this is the second by election since then as 2 of the 3 passed away, the LDs also won the other in similar fashion so this result is not as surprising as the raw figures suggest. Andrew Teales preview suggests this ward had what may be a unique result a decade ago with UKIP GAIN from rump SDP (Bridlington was after 1992 one of the last redouts of SDPism)
    Labour had a tepid hold in Liverpool losing votes to an indy and a functional hold in Ollerton, Notts without much dramatic movement. They gained a seat ftom an indy in Middlesborough they should hold anyway and they gained one from the Tories in S Derbyshire. It was a toss up ward fornerly Lab but recently a hyper marginal Tory ward but thus time ukip's 23% split more for Labour and they took it by 50 votes approx, still a hyper marginal and again, no rush to Labour.
    Tories lost the 3 mentioned, held in Wyre (Blackpool South) with a swing to Labour seen but not enough to lose and they easily held in Croydon with a swing from Labour of 2.5% continuing the trend there after Labour bankrupted the council, although former MP and Con to Lab switcher Andrew Pelling standing as an indy may have taken a little off both parties. The Greens and LDs didnt make much progress here.

    Summary - tories have a big LD problem, Labour have a finding new votes problem
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    FandLILV is the funniest book ever written but anyone treating it as a How To Live manual needs to ponder this from FALOTCT

    I have a bad tendency to rush off on mad tangents and pursue them for fifty or sixty pages that get so out of control that I end up burning them, for my own good. One of the few exceptions to this rule occurred very recently, when I slipped up and let about two hundred pages go into print … which caused me a lot of trouble with the tax man, among others, and it taught me a lesson I hope I’ll never forget. Live steady. Don’t fuck around. Give anything weird a wide berth – including people. It’s not worth it. I learned this the hard way, through brutal overindulgence.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,195
    Watching Norrie. Really not sure. Plays safe, plays short. Against this opponent he is likely to get away with this despite Johnson having most of the best shots. But when he hits a top player he is going to be massacred.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
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    TresTres Posts: 2,216
    Imagine how those of us who didn't vote for his party in 2019 feel.
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    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,890
    5 mins into the channel 4 hacking thing and we already have the classic autism trope.

    I know someone in this line of work (I think) and they are just really good at maths. That's it.

    (And playing guitar and making his merry way through a gymnast club at uni)
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Eabhal said:

    5 mins into the channel 4 hacking thing and we already have the classic autism trope.

    I know someone in this line of work (I think) and they are just really good at maths. That's it.

    (And playing guitar and making his merry way through a gymnast club at uni)

    I watched the first episode last night. I wasn't very impressed, to be honest.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326

    Last nights by elections
    Both Scottish Island byes went to Indies as expecred.
    LDs picked up 2 Tory seats, one in Goblin Bercow's old haunt of Buckinghamshire although it should be noted this was a three member Green, Con, Con vote last time so its LDs taking from first placed Greens last time although it was thd 2nd placed Con who's seat was being fought. Strong LD performance, Weak Con, and Greens will i think be disappointed not to have won it.
    The other was Bridlington with a massive swing but note that no LDs stood in May 2019 3 member ward and this is the second by election since then as 2 of the 3 passed away, the LDs also won the other in similar fashion so this result is not as surprising as the raw figures suggest. Andrew Teales preview suggests this ward had what may be a unique result a decade ago with UKIP GAIN from rump SDP (Bridlington was after 1992 one of the last redouts of SDPism)
    Labour had a tepid hold in Liverpool losing votes to an indy and a functional hold in Ollerton, Notts without much dramatic movement. They gained a seat ftom an indy in Middlesborough they should hold anyway and they gained one from the Tories in S Derbyshire. It was a toss up ward fornerly Lab but recently a hyper marginal Tory ward but thus time ukip's 23% split more for Labour and they took it by 50 votes approx, still a hyper marginal and again, no rush to Labour.
    Tories lost the 3 mentioned, held in Wyre (Blackpool South) with a swing to Labour seen but not enough to lose and they easily held in Croydon with a swing from Labour of 2.5% continuing the trend there after Labour bankrupted the council, although former MP and Con to Lab switcher Andrew Pelling standing as an indy may have taken a little off both parties. The Greens and LDs didnt make much progress here.

    Summary - tories have a big LD problem, Labour have a finding new votes problem

    Thanks - very helpful. Would be great if you did it every week!
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    Last nights by elections
    Both Scottish Island byes went to Indies as expecred.
    LDs picked up 2 Tory seats, one in Goblin Bercow's old haunt of Buckinghamshire although it should be noted this was a three member Green, Con, Con vote last time so its LDs taking from first placed Greens last time although it was thd 2nd placed Con who's seat was being fought. Strong LD performance, Weak Con, and Greens will i think be disappointed not to have won it.
    The other was Bridlington with a massive swing but note that no LDs stood in May 2019 3 member ward and this is the second by election since then as 2 of the 3 passed away, the LDs also won the other in similar fashion so this result is not as surprising as the raw figures suggest. Andrew Teales preview suggests this ward had what may be a unique result a decade ago with UKIP GAIN from rump SDP (Bridlington was after 1992 one of the last redouts of SDPism)
    Labour had a tepid hold in Liverpool losing votes to an indy and a functional hold in Ollerton, Notts without much dramatic movement. They gained a seat ftom an indy in Middlesborough they should hold anyway and they gained one from the Tories in S Derbyshire. It was a toss up ward fornerly Lab but recently a hyper marginal Tory ward but thus time ukip's 23% split more for Labour and they took it by 50 votes approx, still a hyper marginal and again, no rush to Labour.
    Tories lost the 3 mentioned, held in Wyre (Blackpool South) with a swing to Labour seen but not enough to lose and they easily held in Croydon with a swing from Labour of 2.5% continuing the trend there after Labour bankrupted the council, although former MP and Con to Lab switcher Andrew Pelling standing as an indy may have taken a little off both parties. The Greens and LDs didnt make much progress here.

    Summary - tories have a big LD problem, Labour have a finding new votes problem

    Thanks - very helpful. Would be great if you did it every week!
    I'll try, but im struggling a fair bit with fatigue due to some new zombie medication lately so its hit and miss. I should caveat and say any analysis i do is purely figures based, i don't go into nor explore local issues beyond the macro level things like Croydon bankruptcy or its in a ward in a sex pests seat etc. Im looking for broad trends only.
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    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,890
    Have we heard from @Leon since I suggested infiltrating a Russian oligarchs super yacht?
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    from Njegos by Djilas

    . . . that strange, precious, and wonderful law of the Vasojevici of those times, with its twelve articles, which forbade committing adultery with guests, which called for the castration of woman-chasing clerics, which forbade witch-hunting, and which commanded "that all of the clans of the Vasojevici and the Serbs keep unconditional peace," "that mosques must not be built and the old ones kept up," that "renegades must not be killed, but that it is up to each clan to bring there own back into the faith of their forefathers." Furthermore, that law commanded: "whoever becomes converted to Islam today and accepts the false faith, let him be counted a Turk." Also this: "who does not come to help when the enemies strike at the border, let him have no part of the life of the tribe and let no one give him a maiden to marry"; "whoever steals from the Serbs and is caught, let him pay double and a meal for the peasants. If he is not caught, let him be cursed"; "whosoever steals from the Turks, good for him"; "whatever traitor informs the enemy of the councils of the chieftains, let him and all his kind perish without trace for all time amen. Whoever goes over the heads of his chieftains to seek justice from the alien, let him be accounted guilty"; "whoever from this day hence goes to the vizir at Scutari . . . let him perish without trace." That law even includes the following: "God, and not Satan, has created woman and so let it be for all time, amen. Who speaks the contrary is accursed."

    SSI - went a bit wokey there at the end. Certainly NOT big on religious tolerance, but also not devoid of virtue in what was (and beneath the surface still is?) a VERY rough & tough part of the world.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,090
    Posted this to @Cookie on the old thread, re wokeness and schools.

    On the transgender thing, which is where my woke tendencies kind of start to reach their limits, I think it is a generational thing. I really don't think it is coming from the schools, they are simply trying to accommodate the choices that teenagers are making around their identity. What is the alternative? That they start insisting that kids conform to their biological sex? That would invite a whole load of trouble from the kids' parents, and would risk pushing kids out of school, ruining their education. And if they accommodate these kids, as I think they have to, then they need to make sure there is no bullying. And so they have to communicate a message of acceptance clearly to all the kids in the school.
    I probably come from a place of being rather suspicious of it all, especially the sudden huge increase in numbers. There really are a lot of kids in my daughter's cohort who are going down that route. We have been schooled by my daughter in terms of our attitudes. I don't honestly know if it is a good thing or a bad thing. But like I say, the schools are simply responding to changing attitudes, I really, like 100%, don't believe they are the motive force here at all.
    I should add, this is a very difficult environment for schools, they are doing a very good job navigating it and that's why I get really fucking furious when they are the victims of ill informed hatchet jobs from politically motivated hacks who simply want to open a new front in their tedious culture wars.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
    I just had my chatty evening swim with the PRESIDENT (of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro)

    Highly informed, got a PhD in political science, and writes poetry. He said “Boris Johnson will win again. He acts like a clown but that’s deliberate, so people underestimate him”

    i don’t agree, I think Boris is toast this time - and needs to go - I was just impressed at such an insightful judgement of British politics from the Adriatic coast of little Montenegro
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    IshmaelZ said:

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    FandLILV is the funniest book ever written but anyone treating it as a How To Live manual needs to ponder this from FALOTCT

    I have a bad tendency to rush off on mad tangents and pursue them for fifty or sixty pages that get so out of control that I end up burning them, for my own good. One of the few exceptions to this rule occurred very recently, when I slipped up and let about two hundred pages go into print … which caused me a lot of trouble with the tax man, among others, and it taught me a lesson I hope I’ll never forget. Live steady. Don’t fuck around. Give anything weird a wide berth – including people. It’s not worth it. I learned this the hard way, through brutal overindulgence.
    Is this all some bizarre prolonged metaphor?
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
    If I was a Conservative of any type I'd be mad as hell with my "leadership".

    Sins, demerits & incompetency of MY side always bugs & depresses & enrages me more than those of others.

    And that's saying something.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,195
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
    Possibly but apparently the President of Montenegro thinks otherwise so who am I to argue. Its a rum choice though, almost Trump-v-Biden.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Boris is a cancer on the Tories; the Tories are a cancer on Britain.

    At some of these patients are terminal.
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    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Maybe the SNP should stand in English seats. They might actually get a mandate for a referendum...
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Applicant said:

    Maybe the SNP should stand in English seats. They might actually get a mandate for a referendum...

    It’s probable they have a more substantial platform than Labour at this point.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
    Tory leaning voters and supporters need to exorcise these utter pieces of crap in whatever fashion is required. If that means they need zeroing again in Wales and Scotland and the same done in the NE and London and swathes of rural England so be it.
    Its gone so far beyond political ideaology now its ridiculous. They are the weasals in Toad Hall. Just rotten, filthy scoundrels. We all need to be rid of them and the party cleansed.
    Dry rot government.
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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,741
    IshmaelZ said:

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    FandLILV is the funniest book ever written but anyone treating it as a How To Live manual needs to ponder this from FALOTCT

    I have a bad tendency to rush off on mad tangents and pursue them for fifty or sixty pages that get so out of control that I end up burning them, for my own good. One of the few exceptions to this rule occurred very recently, when I slipped up and let about two hundred pages go into print … which caused me a lot of trouble with the tax man, among others, and it taught me a lesson I hope I’ll never forget. Live steady. Don’t fuck around. Give anything weird a wide berth – including people. It’s not worth it. I learned this the hard way, through brutal overindulgence.
    He might have added "...and keep loaded guns pointed away from you".
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    KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    Boris is a cancer on the Tories; the Tories are a cancer on Britain.

    At some of these patients are terminal.

    C'mon chief. Describing political opponents in dehumanising terms isn't really cricket.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
    Possibly but apparently the President of Montenegro thinks otherwise so who am I to argue. Its a rum choice though, almost Trump-v-Biden.
    Andrija Petkovic

    President of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro

    Tivat has a population of 14,000; so he’s like the leader of Falmouth Council

    Bloody good bloke. Very funny. His dad Zlatko is quite mad. I really like the Montenegrins. They are affable, kind, clever and inquisitive. Remind me of the Armenians, a bit
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited July 2022
    Keystone said:

    Boris is a cancer on the Tories; the Tories are a cancer on Britain.

    At some of these patients are terminal.

    C'mon chief. Describing political opponents in dehumanising terms isn't really cricket.
    Is your objection that Boris should not be called a cancer, or the Tory Party, or both?
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Really BIG news on this side of the Atlantic (and especially the Pacific) is announcement that both University of California at Los Angeles and University of Southern California, are leaving the Pac 12 university athletic conference, in order to join up with the (now very misnamed) Big 10.

    Departure of UCLA and USC guts the (also now misnamed) Pac 12 which is NOT great news for remaining member schools, including University of Washington and Washington State University.

    Why did the two El Lay powerhouses just secede from Pa 12? One major reason, in addition to the incredible ineptitude of Pac 12's jock (in US sense) "leadership", is desire to have better access to making the cut for NCAA football playoff games, which are extraordinarily lucrative to schools that make them, plus are good arguments for recruiting the next crop of top talent from USA high schools.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,006

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    A minor coincidence: I'd just put an admittedly derivative artwork on Instagram and then received several warnings that it would have the Hell's Angels after me, either with lawyers or pool cues. They're very protective of their insignia to the point of having it trademarked, and will sue I'm told. This is their 'logo' of which they're so jealous, just in case anyone else was thinking of donning their own colours.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    A minor coincidence: I'd just put an admittedly derivative artwork on Instagram and then received several warnings that it would have the Hell's Angels after me, either with lawyers or pool cues. They're very protective of their insignia to the point of having it trademarked, and will sue I'm told. This is their 'logo' of which they're so jealous, just in case anyone else was thinking of donning their own colours.

    My old manor?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,006

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    A minor coincidence: I'd just put an admittedly derivative artwork on Instagram and then received several warnings that it would have the Hell's Angels after me, either with lawyers or pool cues. They're very protective of their insignia to the point of having it trademarked, and will sue I'm told. This is their 'logo' of which they're so jealous, just in case anyone else was thinking of donning their own colours.

    My old manor?
    They're everywhere, except where rival gangs have beaten them out (Blue Angels in Glasgow). There may even be a member of the Epping chapter on here..
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    edited July 2022

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    A minor coincidence: I'd just put an admittedly derivative artwork on Instagram and then received several warnings that it would have the Hell's Angels after me, either with lawyers or pool cues. They're very protective of their insignia to the point of having it trademarked, and will sue I'm told. This is their 'logo' of which they're so jealous, just in case anyone else was thinking of donning their own colours.

    The NYT note that Sonny Barger copyrighted that logo about half-century ago "then sued anyone who used it without permission, including Marvel Comics and the director Roger Corman".

    So yes. AND probably NOT a good idea to cruise through Oakland or Berdoo with those colors on your back. Unless you first consult with the late Sonny's lawyer and business manager, who according to NYT is guy named Fritz Clapp.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,981

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,708
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    Remainers have never been able to answer the simplest questions despite maintaining frequently that we retained sovereignty while we were in the EU.

    Like: If the UK is a democratic sovereign nation within the EU describe (omitting all whataboutery) by what process, involving only voting and democratic and democratically elected parliamentary processes the people of the UK could effect a change in how EU rules on FoM or VAT worked in the UK, or repeal any part of EU legislation insofar as it touches the interests of the UK.
    Ooh me sir me sir pick me sir please.

    Ans: because the UK voted to join the club and the club has rules. Like if I wanted to go to the Royal Meeting at Ascot in the Royal Enclosure and tried to wear jeans and a t-shirt when the requirement is for formal dress. I can unilaterally decide that I will accept those rules or not. As regards the EU it was the latter.

    All the actions of a perfectly "democratic sovereign nation".

    Your welcome.
    The infantile nature of the response reveals that there is, of course, no sensible answer to @algakirk’s question that does not admit his point

    The EU is horribly and painfully undemocratic, it was designed that way. You can accept that this corrosion of our democracy is worth it in return for the benefits - single market, free movement, etc - but you cannot deny it, as many Remainers once tried to do

    @algakirk’s question FPT is a reasonable one. But if I can briefly indulge in some forbidden whataboutery, let's take NATO. As a NATO member our obligation to go to war on behalf of other members is absolute; there is zero democratic accountability about it. By contrast the EU doesn't make such absolute demands on its members and it does have a degree of democratic accountability, albeit constrained by member state governments. So why are we in NATO?

    So maybe the perceived benefit of NATO is greater than that of the EU. But this is an opinion, not a principle.

    The point is, you enter into international alliances to obtain benefits that aren't otherwise available and in doing so you submit yourself to the collective decision. The principle is the same whether it's EU, NATO or another treaty.

    This isn't a hypothetical point. While people voted Brexit "to take control", they actually voted to have less of the things they presumably want - prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc. And what do we do if we decide at some point we want some of those benefits back again? The Brexit problem lies there
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,981
    Applicant said:

    Maybe the SNP should stand in English seats. They might actually get a mandate for a referendum...

    More likely just split the Labour vote and save some Tory seats
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
    Hmmmm dont remind me. I had a bit of a weird year in 2017. I tend to pretend it didnt exist. I made a lot of very weird life choices and that carried over into the election. Having said that, my engagement was falling apart and i think my vote was partly sabotage as she was a headbanging blue. My 'memories' pages on facebook from 2016 and 2017 are complete cringe/clusterfuck. So when i say ive never voted Labour we all have to pretend 2017 didnt happen and say yes Woolie youre a die hard Labour hater who would never vote for them and everyone respects your unwavering conviction. TM really annoyed me calling that election!
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,006
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
    I just had my chatty evening swim with the PRESIDENT (of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro)

    Highly informed, got a PhD in political science, and writes poetry. He said “Boris Johnson will win again. He acts like a clown but that’s deliberate, so people underestimate him”

    i don’t agree, I think Boris is toast this time - and needs to go - I was just impressed at such an insightful judgement of British politics from the Adriatic coast of little Montenegro
    Anything on Scottish politics? If so you might have learned something.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    It disgusts me too, and I'm a solid Tory right-winger.
    I just had my chatty evening swim with the PRESIDENT (of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro)

    Highly informed, got a PhD in political science, and writes poetry. He said “Boris Johnson will win again. He acts like a clown but that’s deliberate, so people underestimate him”

    i don’t agree, I think Boris is toast this time - and needs to go - I was just impressed at such an insightful judgement of British politics from the Adriatic coast of little Montenegro
    Anything on Scottish politics? If so you might have learned something.
    No referendum. Told you. You should listen to me more, then you wouldn’t be repeatedly and bitterly disappointed
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,765
    Cameron beats Johnson
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
    Hmmmm dont remind me. I had a bit of a weird year in 2017. I tend to pretend it didnt exist. I made a lot of very weird life choices and that carried over into the election. Having said that, my engagement was falling apart and i think my vote was partly sabotage as she was a headbanging blue. My 'memories' pages on facebook from 2016 and 2017 are complete cringe/clusterfuck. So when i say ive never voted Labour we all have to pretend 2017 didnt happen and say yes Woolie youre a die hard Labour hater who would never vote for them and everyone respects your unwavering conviction. TM really annoyed me calling that election!
    I am very confused by your age.
    I thought you were retired or near retirement, but other comments suggest you are in your twenties or thirties.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,359
    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Maybe the SNP should stand in English seats. They might actually get a mandate for a referendum...

    More likely just split the Labour vote and save some Tory seats
    Don't tell them that, they'll be all over it. They did get Callaghan booted out and let Thatcher in.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,311

    Really BIG news on this side of the Atlantic (and especially the Pacific) is announcement that both University of California at Los Angeles and University of Southern California, are leaving the Pac 12 university athletic conference, in order to join up with the (now very misnamed) Big 10.

    Departure of UCLA and USC guts the (also now misnamed) Pac 12 which is NOT great news for remaining member schools, including University of Washington and Washington State University.

    Why did the two El Lay powerhouses just secede from Pa 12? One major reason, in addition to the incredible ineptitude of Pac 12's jock (in US sense) "leadership", is desire to have better access to making the cut for NCAA football playoff games, which are extraordinarily lucrative to schools that make them, plus are good arguments for recruiting the next crop of top talent from USA high schools.

    America has billion dollar sports programmes for universities; we have PE teachers from Loughborough. It is completely alien to us, even if we acknowledge its existence.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    CatMan said:

    Cameron beats Johnson

    To be honest, a blocked u-bend “beats Johnson”.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Keystone said:

    Boris is a cancer on the Tories; the Tories are a cancer on Britain.

    At some of these patients are terminal.

    C'mon chief. Describing political opponents in dehumanising terms isn't really cricket.
    Is your objection that Boris should not be called a cancer, or the Tory Party, or both?
    It's the trying to sound clever, about a disease a lot of us know a lot more about than we'd like to, which I object to. You can't talk about curing metastatic cancer with radiotherapy (or anything else) without sounding like a complete and utter [ENDS]
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    Posted this to @Cookie on the old thread, re wokeness and schools.

    On the transgender thing, which is where my woke tendencies kind of start to reach their limits, I think it is a generational thing. I really don't think it is coming from the schools, they are simply trying to accommodate the choices that teenagers are making around their identity. What is the alternative? That they start insisting that kids conform to their biological sex? That would invite a whole load of trouble from the kids' parents, and would risk pushing kids out of school, ruining their education. And if they accommodate these kids, as I think they have to, then they need to make sure there is no bullying. And so they have to communicate a message of acceptance clearly to all the kids in the school.
    I probably come from a place of being rather suspicious of it all, especially the sudden huge increase in numbers. There really are a lot of kids in my daughter's cohort who are going down that route. We have been schooled by my daughter in terms of our attitudes. I don't honestly know if it is a good thing or a bad thing. But like I say, the schools are simply responding to changing attitudes, I really, like 100%, don't believe they are the motive force here at all.
    I should add, this is a very difficult environment for schools, they are doing a very good job navigating it and that's why I get really fucking furious when they are the victims of ill informed hatchet jobs from politically motivated hacks who simply want to open a new front in their tedious culture wars.

    Very interesting observations.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
    Possibly but apparently the President of Montenegro thinks otherwise so who am I to argue. Its a rum choice though, almost Trump-v-Biden.
    Andrija Petkovic

    President of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro

    Tivat has a population of 14,000; so he’s like the leader of Falmouth Council

    Bloody good bloke. Very funny. His dad Zlatko is quite mad. I really like the Montenegrins. They are affable, kind, clever and inquisitive. Remind me of the Armenians, a bit
    No doubt his election was a Tivatable event. Esp. for the Tivakski.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Maybe the SNP should stand in English seats. They might actually get a mandate for a referendum...

    More likely just split the Labour vote and save some Tory seats
    Don't tell them that, they'll be all over it. They did get Callaghan booted out and let Thatcher in.
    That rather omits the small matter of the overwhelming numbers of Labour and Conservative seats. It's like chundering on the kitchen floor and blaming the gerbil for spilling a couple of sunflower seed.

    It was quite clear at the time, and in memoirs of Labour figures after that, that the SNP made no discernible difference except to timing. And Labour had imposed a referendum where the dead voted no. They can't talk of democracy.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547

    Really BIG news on this side of the Atlantic (and especially the Pacific) is announcement that both University of California at Los Angeles and University of Southern California, are leaving the Pac 12 university athletic conference, in order to join up with the (now very misnamed) Big 10.

    Departure of UCLA and USC guts the (also now misnamed) Pac 12 which is NOT great news for remaining member schools, including University of Washington and Washington State University.

    Why did the two El Lay powerhouses just secede from Pa 12? One major reason, in addition to the incredible ineptitude of Pac 12's jock (in US sense) "leadership", is desire to have better access to making the cut for NCAA football playoff games, which are extraordinarily lucrative to schools that make them, plus are good arguments for recruiting the next crop of top talent from USA high schools.

    America has billion dollar sports programmes for universities; we have PE teachers from Loughborough. It is completely alien to us, even if we acknowledge its existence.
    For some universities. Haves and have-nots. With University of Alabama being Platinum Standard.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    Remainers have never been able to answer the simplest questions despite maintaining frequently that we retained sovereignty while we were in the EU.

    Like: If the UK is a democratic sovereign nation within the EU describe (omitting all whataboutery) by what process, involving only voting and democratic and democratically elected parliamentary processes the people of the UK could effect a change in how EU rules on FoM or VAT worked in the UK, or repeal any part of EU legislation insofar as it touches the interests of the UK.
    Ooh me sir me sir pick me sir please.

    Ans: because the UK voted to join the club and the club has rules. Like if I wanted to go to the Royal Meeting at Ascot in the Royal Enclosure and tried to wear jeans and a t-shirt when the requirement is for formal dress. I can unilaterally decide that I will accept those rules or not. As regards the EU it was the latter.

    All the actions of a perfectly "democratic sovereign nation".

    Your welcome.
    The infantile nature of the response reveals that there is, of course, no sensible answer to @algakirk’s question that does not admit his point

    The EU is horribly and painfully undemocratic, it was designed that way. You can accept that this corrosion of our democracy is worth it in return for the benefits - single market, free movement, etc - but you cannot deny it, as many Remainers once tried to do

    @algakirk’s question FPT is a reasonable one. But if I can briefly indulge in some forbidden whataboutery, let's take NATO. As a NATO member our obligation to go to war on behalf of other members is absolute; there is zero democratic accountability about it. By contrast the EU doesn't make such absolute demands on its members and it does have a degree of democratic accountability, albeit constrained by member state governments. So why are we in NATO?

    So maybe the perceived benefit of NATO is greater than that of the EU. But this is an opinion, not a principle.

    The point is, you enter into international alliances to obtain benefits that aren't otherwise available and in doing so you submit yourself to the collective decision. The principle is the same whether it's EU, NATO or another treaty.

    This isn't a hypothetical point. While people voted Brexit "to take control", they actually voted to have less of the things they presumably want - prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc. And what do we do if we decide at some point we want some of those benefits back again? The Brexit problem lies there
    A fatuous comparison, but whatever

    Let’s take just one other point

    Brexit voters voted to have less “prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc.”?

    That may or may not be true, but even if it is true, the same could be said of American revolutionaries in 1776 or Irish revolutionaries in the 1920s. They ended up poorer and less influential and so forth (in Ireland’s case for a long time) and yet neither state would even consider returning to the bountiful British bosom, now. Nor should they

    Independence is often painful if not traumatic. Like, say, having a baby
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,981

    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
    Johnson and Morrison in 2019, Trump in 2016, even Merkel in 2013 and 2017, did not win on 'the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.'

    Plus on current polls for the Spanish and Italian elections next year the right is ahead in both nations, on a populist platform in the latter particularly
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    FPT -NYT ($) - Sonny Barger, Who Turned the Hells Angels Into Rebels, Dies at 83

    SSI - Before Hunter S. Thompson, a PB favorite, penned "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (also "F&I on the Campaign Trail") he wrote "Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga". Which helped turn Sonny Barger into a (once) living legend.

    RIP would be less than appropriate, methinks.

    A minor coincidence: I'd just put an admittedly derivative artwork on Instagram and then received several warnings that it would have the Hell's Angels after me, either with lawyers or pool cues. They're very protective of their insignia to the point of having it trademarked, and will sue I'm told. This is their 'logo' of which they're so jealous, just in case anyone else was thinking of donning their own colours.

    The other objection to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas: HST and the attorney spend the whole book bullying people who turn out on inspection to be in every case vulnerable women, or employees, or both. In Hell's Angels where he is up against some seriously 'ard blokes, he is nice as pie to everyone
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    edited July 2022

    Posted this to @Cookie on the old thread, re wokeness and schools.

    On the transgender thing, which is where my woke tendencies kind of start to reach their limits, I think it is a generational thing. I really don't think it is coming from the schools, they are simply trying to accommodate the choices that teenagers are making around their identity. What is the alternative? That they start insisting that kids conform to their biological sex? That would invite a whole load of trouble from the kids' parents, and would risk pushing kids out of school, ruining their education. And if they accommodate these kids, as I think they have to, then they need to make sure there is no bullying. And so they have to communicate a message of acceptance clearly to all the kids in the school.
    I probably come from a place of being rather suspicious of it all, especially the sudden huge increase in numbers. There really are a lot of kids in my daughter's cohort who are going down that route. We have been schooled by my daughter in terms of our attitudes. I don't honestly know if it is a good thing or a bad thing. But like I say, the schools are simply responding to changing attitudes, I really, like 100%, don't believe they are the motive force here at all.
    I should add, this is a very difficult environment for schools, they are doing a very good job navigating it and that's why I get really fucking furious when they are the victims of ill informed hatchet jobs from politically motivated hacks who simply want to open a new front in their tedious culture wars.

    Greater awareness of this identity can mean that the young people in question find it easier to be themselves or (flip side) that they steer themselves to it prematurely or in error. I'd hope it's mainly the first and I think it probably is - although that's not based on any personal knowledge, first or second hand, just mainly from the things I've read and the debates around it. The case for the GRA reforms that were dropped in 2018 remains strong imo.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
    Johnson and Morrison in 2019, Trump in 2016, even Merkel in 2013 and 2017, did not win on 'the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.'

    Plus on current polls for the Spanish and Italian elections next year the right is ahead in both nations, on a populist platform in the
    latter particularly
    See my previous post on what Conservatism is reduced to. Merkel is an outlier in the global context, closer to the Conservatism of the 90s.

    We need a new word that defines these platforms, “populism” doesn’t quite work since it is inherent that there must be division and enemies within and without who must be punished.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
    Possibly but apparently the President of Montenegro thinks otherwise so who am I to argue. Its a rum choice though, almost Trump-v-Biden.
    Andrija Petkovic

    President of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro

    Tivat has a population of 14,000; so he’s like the leader of Falmouth Council

    Bloody good bloke. Very funny. His dad Zlatko is quite mad. I really like the Montenegrins. They are affable, kind, clever and inquisitive. Remind me of the Armenians, a bit
    No doubt his election was a Tivatable event. Esp. for the Tivakski.
    Are you sending me to my death? I’ve been looking at pix of roads in the Montenegrin interior. Fecking hell
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    CatMan said:

    Cameron beats Johnson

    And Isner out to Sinner. They can look brutal, these young Turk vs senior statesman matches.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    Would that be any less fitting as a description of the Democratic party? I think you might be scapegoating conservatism for deeper political issues.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
    Hmmmm dont remind me. I had a bit of a weird year in 2017. I tend to pretend it didnt exist. I made a lot of very weird life choices and that carried over into the election. Having said that, my engagement was falling apart and i think my vote was partly sabotage as she was a headbanging blue. My 'memories' pages on facebook from 2016 and 2017 are complete cringe/clusterfuck. So when i say ive never voted Labour we all have to pretend 2017 didnt happen and say yes Woolie youre a die hard Labour hater who would never vote for them and everyone respects your unwavering conviction. TM really annoyed me calling that election!
    I am very confused by your age.
    I thought you were retired or near retirement, but other comments suggest you are in your twenties or thirties.
    I am a child of the early 70s. I've never married, so my engagement just mentioned was a last shot I guess. I dont do very well at relationships on a friend or lover level due to some fairly debilitating Mental health problems, and historic alcohol and drug issues have made a lot of my activities a bit off the rails at times. At times i feel like i am still 30 but transitioning to a pensioner overnight.

    Im a weird fecker with a potty mouth but im not a spring chicken
    Ok, thanks.

    Sorry to hear about your mental health issues. The sole benefit of Covid, perhaps, is that there is far greater awareness and open-ness about mental health issues which are far, far more common than we all knew.

    Go well.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    Would that be any less fitting as a description of the Democratic party? I think you might be scapegoating conservatism for deeper political issues.
    Snore.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
    Hmmmm dont remind me. I had a bit of a weird year in 2017. I tend to pretend it didnt exist. I made a lot of very weird life choices and that carried over into the election. Having said that, my engagement was falling apart and i think my vote was partly sabotage as she was a headbanging blue. My 'memories' pages on facebook from 2016 and 2017 are complete cringe/clusterfuck. So when i say ive never voted Labour we all have to pretend 2017 didnt happen and say yes Woolie youre a die hard Labour hater who would never vote for them and everyone respects your unwavering conviction. TM really annoyed me calling that election!
    I am very confused by your age.
    I thought you were retired or near retirement, but other comments suggest you are in your twenties or thirties.
    I am a child of the early 70s. I've never married, so my engagement just mentioned was a last shot I guess. I dont do very well at relationships on a friend or lover level due to some fairly debilitating Mental health problems, and historic alcohol and drug issues have made a lot of my activities a bit off the rails at times. At times i feel like i am still 30 but transitioning to a pensioner overnight.

    Im a weird fecker with a potty mouth but im not a spring chicken
    Ok, thanks.

    Sorry to hear about your mental health issues. The sole benefit of Covid, perhaps, is that there is far greater awareness and open-ness about mental health issues which are far, far more common than we all knew.

    Go well.
    Thank you. Youre right about Covid although i wonder at times how i made it through. Lost my mum and trapped locked down in a flat with no outside space and mental health services almost non existent made it 'interesting'. It has made struggling make us less like mental lepers to the public at large though
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,145
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    Remainers have never been able to answer the simplest questions despite maintaining frequently that we retained sovereignty while we were in the EU.

    Like: If the UK is a democratic sovereign nation within the EU describe (omitting all whataboutery) by what process, involving only voting and democratic and democratically elected parliamentary processes the people of the UK could effect a change in how EU rules on FoM or VAT worked in the UK, or repeal any part of EU legislation insofar as it touches the interests of the UK.
    Ooh me sir me sir pick me sir please.

    Ans: because the UK voted to join the club and the club has rules. Like if I wanted to go to the Royal Meeting at Ascot in the Royal Enclosure and tried to wear jeans and a t-shirt when the requirement is for formal dress. I can unilaterally decide that I will accept those rules or not. As regards the EU it was the latter.

    All the actions of a perfectly "democratic sovereign nation".

    Your welcome.
    The infantile nature of the response reveals that there is, of course, no sensible answer to @algakirk’s question that does not admit his point

    The EU is horribly and painfully undemocratic, it was designed that way. You can accept that this corrosion of our democracy is worth it in return for the benefits - single market, free movement, etc - but you cannot deny it, as many Remainers once tried to do

    @algakirk’s question FPT is a reasonable one. But if I can briefly indulge in some forbidden whataboutery, let's take NATO. As a NATO member our obligation to go to war on behalf of other members is absolute; there is zero democratic accountability about it. By contrast the EU doesn't make such absolute demands on its members and it does have a degree of democratic accountability, albeit constrained by member state governments. So why are we in NATO?

    So maybe the perceived benefit of NATO is greater than that of the EU. But this is an opinion, not a principle.

    The point is, you enter into international alliances to obtain benefits that aren't otherwise available and in doing so you submit yourself to the collective decision. The principle is the same whether it's EU, NATO or another treaty.

    This isn't a hypothetical point. While people voted Brexit "to take control", they actually voted to have less of the things they presumably want - prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc. And what do we do if we decide at some point we want some of those benefits back again? The Brexit problem lies there
    Yes, two points to team FF43 in the endless debate. Why did the people of Britain ignore such impeccable logic and vote to Leave?

    Putting to one side a whole bunch of mundane reasons - being lied to, dissatisfaction following austerity, etc - the fundamental reasons were that there was a feeling that Europe was something that was being done to people, and they weren't involved in it, and this was only reinforced by the basic message from Remain being, "to Leave would be such an economic calamity that we have no choice but to Remain," which hardly does much to foster a sense of consent.

    Remainers/Rejoiners clearly still don't understand this because the tenor of their argument is unchanged. It's still the same argument that Britain is unable to survive on its own. Regardless of what economic stats you can point to in support of this case it is a losing argument, because it only conceives of Britain rejoining the EU reluctantly as a weak supplicant.

    I believe that any future Union between Britain and the EU can only be successful if Britain decides to seek such a Union from a position of self-confidence and optimism. This is sadly completely lacking from everything I see from Rejoiners.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,409
    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    Two separate things, perhaps.

    One is who is in, who is out. That looks like a pendulum for sure- one that BoJo defied in 2019 but which is now threatening to hit him in the groin in 2023/4/5.

    The other is ideas on the right. Or rather, the lack of them. Not every idea generated in a right-leaning garret in the runup to 2010 turned out to be good, but there were ideas, and the Big Society was sort of a theme. Now? Johnson outsourced his thinking to a career psycho who isn't even a Conservative, and then he sacked Cummings. Now, there's almost nothing.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Boris Johnson is a metastasing tumour to the Conservative Party and the only solution to save the patient is radical radiotherapy.

    Funnily enough, my Dad and I agreed lunchtime the best description is that he is a cancer on the Tory party and they need to act preferably with the aid of time travel.
    Pa Woolie has already written them off for next times vote. Possible he will vote Labour reading his runes but he wouldnt admit that to me knowing how 'fond' i am of them. He does have the luxury of not being in Clive Lewis' fiefdom though.
    I thought you voted for Lewis yourself in '17. Sure I remember that revelation. To be fair, I think he would be a great option for Labour leader and I say that as a habitual Lib Dem voter.
    Hmmmm dont remind me. I had a bit of a weird year in 2017. I tend to pretend it didnt exist. I made a lot of very weird life choices and that carried over into the election. Having said that, my engagement was falling apart and i think my vote was partly sabotage as she was a headbanging blue. My 'memories' pages on facebook from 2016 and 2017 are complete cringe/clusterfuck. So when i say ive never voted Labour we all have to pretend 2017 didnt happen and say yes Woolie youre a die hard Labour hater who would never vote for them and everyone respects your unwavering conviction. TM really annoyed me calling that election!
    I am very confused by your age.
    I thought you were retired or near retirement, but other comments suggest you are in your twenties or thirties.
    I am a child of the early 70s. I've never married, so my engagement just mentioned was a last shot I guess. I dont do very well at relationships on a friend or lover level due to some fairly debilitating Mental health problems, and historic alcohol and drug issues have made a lot of my activities a bit off the rails at times. At times i feel like i am still 30 but transitioning to a pensioner overnight.

    Im a weird fecker with a potty mouth but im not a spring chicken
    Ok, thanks.

    Sorry to hear about your mental health issues. The sole benefit of Covid, perhaps, is that there is far greater awareness and open-ness about mental health issues which are far, far more common than we all knew.

    Go well.
    Thank you. Youre right about Covid although i wonder at times how i made it through. Lost my mum and trapped locked down in a flat with no outside space and mental health
    services almost non existent made it 'interesting'. It has made struggling make us less like mental lepers to the public at large though
    It was grim, and I was lucky in that I lost nobody and had space. It did cause me considerable financial issues.

    I don’t think I get depressed like some do on this board, but at the same time I’m still not sure I’m “over” it.

    I don’t want to go back into lockdown.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    Would that be any less fitting as a description of the Democratic party? I think you might be scapegoating conservatism for deeper political issues.
    Snore.
    But @williamglenn is right. You have exactly described the US Democrats. Rich c*nts who are shamelessly riding and worsening a Woke wave

    How much are the Obamas worth? £50m?

    About that

    https://www.gobankingrates.com/net-worth/politicians/barack-obama-net-worth/

    American politics is run by the 1% for the 1% - on both sides
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    Labrador giving up Dominion status and returning to Direct British rule in 1933? They had little choice though, that or bankruptcy
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Re: big-time US college athletics, keep in mind that for some sports - most notably (American) football and basketball, colleges and universities are traditional recruiting grounds for the National Football League and National Basketball Association.

    With both NBA and esp. NFL drawing the bulk of new talent from the Big 10, Pac 12, Southeastern Conference (SEC) and other major universities. Which in athletic terms, strangely enough, do NOT include the likes of Ivy League. Though Duke U and Stanford Junior U (look it up!) are among the athletic as well as academic elite.

    And University of Notre Dame is a special case, not exactly tops (or bottoms) academically, but pinnacle of US Catholic education AND historic sporting power as in "The Knute Rockne Story" which features actor Ronald Reagan's most memorable movie line: "win just one for the Gipper".

    Win one for the Gipper
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e7rmpjBSR8

    Win one for the Zipper
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek6PwrcaYKw
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    Would that be any less fitting as a description of the Democratic party? I think you might be scapegoating conservatism for deeper political issues.
    Snore.
    But @williamglenn is right. You have exactly described the US Democrats. Rich c*nts who are shamelessly riding and worsening a Woke wave

    How much are the Obamas worth? £50m?

    About that

    https://www.gobankingrates.com/net-worth/politicians/barack-obama-net-worth/

    American politics is run by the 1% for the 1%
    - on both sides
    Yes, but it’s not necessarily relevant to my overall characterisation of conservatism in 2022. It’s another point entirely.

    The Obamas didn’t start rich, as far as I’m aware - far from it. Should I be outraged they have made so much money? I don’t know.
    The world is riddled with sin, and I don’t regard Obama’s Netflix deal as a great horror.

    My ideal is humble, down to earth politicos who retire to Georgian rectories or similar to write their memos, but that world don’t exist.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,124
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
    Johnson and Morrison in 2019, Trump in 2016, even Merkel in 2013 and 2017, did not win on 'the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.'

    Plus on current polls for the Spanish and Italian elections next year the right is ahead in both nations, on a populist platform in the latter particularly
    I was working with a woman today who was eulogising Johnson. A young (circa 30) blueish white collar type West Midlander.

    I agree with you that for some bizarre reason Johnson personally holds sway over RedWall voters. They love him irrespective of what the polls say. The question in, by holding on to them is he sacrificing the Blue Wall?
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Leon, here's a conversation starter for you

    List of Montenegrin Players in National Basketball Association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montenegrin_NBA_players#:~:text=Nikola Vučević, Marko Simonović and,only Montenegrins in the NBA.

    One thing, which L can perhaps confirm, is that Montenegrins have tendency toward tallness.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    Labrador giving up Dominion status and returning to Direct British rule in 1933? They had little choice though, that or bankruptcy
    Take my hat off to your ability to reference Labrador.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
    Johnson and Morrison in 2019, Trump in 2016, even Merkel in 2013 and 2017, did not win on 'the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.'

    Plus on current polls for the Spanish and Italian elections next year the right is ahead in both nations, on a populist platform in the latter particularly
    I was working with a woman today who was eulogising Johnson. A young (circa 30) blueish white collar type West Midlander.

    I agree with you that for some bizarre reason Johnson personally holds sway over RedWall voters. They love him irrespective of what the polls say. The question in, by holding on to
    them is he sacrificing the Blue Wall?
    Did you ask her what on earth the attraction is?
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,216

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    Texas? Those Dutch caribbean islands?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,994
    edited July 2022

    Leon, here's a conversation starter for you

    List of Montenegrin Players in National Basketball Association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montenegrin_NBA_players#:~:text=Nikola Vučević, Marko Simonović and,only Montenegrins in the NBA.

    One thing, which L can perhaps confirm, is that Montenegrins have tendency toward tallness.

    Leon, here's a conversation starter for you

    List of Montenegrin Players in National Basketball Association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montenegrin_NBA_players#:~:text=Nikola Vučević, Marko Simonović and,only Montenegrins in the NBA.

    One thing, which L can perhaps confirm, is that Montenegrins have tendency toward tallness.

    They are tall. And generally slender (almost no obesity in the young here). They are also very good looking, a fact noted by Rebecca West back in the 1930s and still true now. They benefit from some perfect storm of angular Slavic genes, an agreeable climate making for an active lifestyle (everyone swimming or hiking year round), a simple but wholesome peasant diet, lots of greens and fish

    If you plucked out 100 random Montenegrin girls aged 18-25 more than half would be notably or strikingly pretty, is my guess. Perhaps a world record. The young men are likewise tall rangy and handsome

    The Croatians are similarly beautiful but they have a surliness, in my experience, That moody Slav thing. The Montenegrins don’t appear to have that at all, dunno why. They are more like Russians in their warm generosity

    Here ends my outrageous list of ridiculous generalisations
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    Labrador giving up Dominion status and returning to Direct British rule in 1933? They had little choice though, that or bankruptcy
    Take my hat off to your ability to reference Labrador.
    Its from the more obscure moments of history of Empire. Confederation with Canada beat responsible self government as Labrador and Newfoundland in a referendum 52 to 48 after the war. 52 48 again.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd love to know who those 21% are to be honest. I am a centre right, economcally dry, socially liberal Tory, a Cameroon or, more accurately, as Osbornite. This government is simply appalling me. The disgraceful dishonesty and sleeze. The morally repugnant Rwanda policies. The pitiful incompetence. Nadine Dorries who needs a sentence to herself. Jeeze. It's probably just as well Labour is offering the square root of sod all.

    Landslide for Square Root Of Sod All, then, since all is relative in this world.
    Possibly but apparently the President of Montenegro thinks otherwise so who am I to argue. Its a rum choice though, almost Trump-v-Biden.
    Andrija Petkovic

    President of the Parliament of Tivat, Montenegro

    Tivat has a population of 14,000; so he’s like the leader of Falmouth Council

    Bloody good bloke. Very funny. His dad Zlatko is quite mad. I really like the Montenegrins. They are affable, kind, clever and inquisitive. Remind me of the Armenians, a bit
    No doubt his election was a Tivatable event. Esp. for the Tivakski.
    Are you sending me to my death? I’ve been looking at pix of roads in the Montenegrin interior. Fecking hell
    Drive defensively. And with MAXIMUM insurance.

    Also ask who is SUPPOSED to have right of way, going uphill OR going down. Along with important caveats, such as in WV where coal trucks ALWAYS have ROW.

    Personally think I'd hire a driver. Esp. if someone else is paying the bill.


    There IS that new superhighway to nowhere, built by Chinese under IIRC the previous POMNE:

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/07/the-billion-dollar-motorway-leading-montenegro-to-nowhere
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    The Roman theatre of Philippopolis in Plovdiv. Built in the 1st Century AD it is still in use today.

    Tonight, they are showing an opera and have sold 4,000 tickets.

    Is that Angela Rayner?
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    What about Scotland seeking the Act of Union in 1707?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Quite moving how happy the Ukrainians are that they might be accepted as a member of the EU. The ceremony in their parliament is being shown on Ch4 News. It's their hope for the future as it was the UKs. Let's hope it happens
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    What about Scotland seeking the Act of Union in 1707?
    East Germany.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,708

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    Remainers have never been able to answer the simplest questions despite maintaining frequently that we retained sovereignty while we were in the EU.

    Like: If the UK is a democratic sovereign nation within the EU describe (omitting all whataboutery) by what process, involving only voting and democratic and democratically elected parliamentary processes the people of the UK could effect a change in how EU rules on FoM or VAT worked in the UK, or repeal any part of EU legislation insofar as it touches the interests of the UK.
    Ooh me sir me sir pick me sir please.

    Ans: because the UK voted to join the club and the club has rules. Like if I wanted to go to the Royal Meeting at Ascot in the Royal Enclosure and tried to wear jeans and a t-shirt when the requirement is for formal dress. I can unilaterally decide that I will accept those rules or not. As regards the EU it was the latter.

    All the actions of a perfectly "democratic sovereign nation".

    Your welcome.
    The infantile nature of the response reveals that there is, of course, no sensible answer to @algakirk’s question that does not admit his point

    The EU is horribly and painfully undemocratic, it was designed that way. You can accept that this corrosion of our democracy is worth it in return for the benefits - single market, free movement, etc - but you cannot deny it, as many Remainers once tried to do

    @algakirk’s question FPT is a reasonable one. But if I can briefly indulge in some forbidden whataboutery, let's take NATO. As a NATO member our obligation to go to war on behalf of other members is absolute; there is zero democratic accountability about it. By contrast the EU doesn't make such absolute demands on its members and it does have a degree of democratic accountability, albeit constrained by member state governments. So why are we in NATO?

    So maybe the perceived benefit of NATO is greater than that of the EU. But this is an opinion, not a principle.

    The point is, you enter into international alliances to obtain benefits that aren't otherwise available and in doing so you submit yourself to the collective decision. The principle is the same whether it's EU, NATO or another treaty.

    This isn't a hypothetical point. While people voted Brexit "to take control", they actually voted to have less of the things they presumably want - prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc. And what do we do if we decide at some point we want some of those benefits back again? The Brexit problem lies there
    Yes, two points to team FF43 in the endless debate. Why did the people of Britain ignore such impeccable logic and vote to Leave?

    Putting to one side a whole bunch of mundane reasons - being lied to, dissatisfaction following austerity, etc - the fundamental reasons were that there was a feeling that Europe was something that was being done to people, and they weren't involved in it, and this was only reinforced by the basic message from Remain being, "to Leave would be such an economic calamity that we have no choice but to Remain," which hardly does much to foster a sense of consent.

    Remainers/Rejoiners clearly still don't understand this because the tenor of their argument is unchanged. It's still the same argument that Britain is unable to survive on its own. Regardless of what economic stats you can point to in support of this case it is a losing argument, because it only conceives of Britain rejoining the EU reluctantly as a weak supplicant.

    I believe that any future Union between Britain and the EU can only be successful if Britain decides to seek such a Union from a position of self-confidence and optimism. This is sadly completely lacking from everything I see from Rejoiners.
    I am simply challenging the premise of @algarkirk's question that the UK's multilateral engagements have to be (or indeed ever are) subject to direct democratic control. If there ever will be a deeper engagement with our European neighbours we will hit this issue again. If you want the collective benefits you submit to the collective will, and actually it's OK.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    More the natural pendulum, it dominated most of the last decade
    On the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.

    Now it’s even given up that.

    As you’ve often suggested yourself, there’s nothing left now except a fetishistic, bordering on malevolent, desire to protect wealth - esp. the unearned kind.
    Johnson and Morrison in 2019, Trump in 2016, even Merkel in 2013 and 2017, did not win on 'the last dregs of monetarism and fiscal sobriety.'

    Plus on current polls for the Spanish and Italian elections next year the right is ahead in both nations, on a populist platform in the latter particularly
    I was working with a woman today who was eulogising Johnson. A young (circa 30) blueish white collar type West Midlander.

    I agree with you that for some bizarre reason Johnson personally holds sway over RedWall voters. They love him irrespective of what the polls say. The question in, by holding on to them is he sacrificing the Blue Wall?
    Did you test her for alcohol?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,981
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    Conservatism is in an ideological trough globally, as it’s allowed itself to be nothing more than a platform for culture-war-mongering behind which rapacious rentiers, monopolists and unearned privilege can hide.

    Would that be any less fitting as a description of the Democratic party? I think you might be scapegoating conservatism for deeper political issues.
    Snore.
    But @williamglenn is right. You have exactly described the US Democrats. Rich c*nts who are shamelessly riding and worsening a Woke wave

    How much are the Obamas worth? £50m?

    About that

    https://www.gobankingrates.com/net-worth/politicians/barack-obama-net-worth/

    American politics is run by the 1% for the 1%
    - on both sides
    Yes, but it’s not necessarily relevant to my overall characterisation of conservatism in 2022. It’s another point entirely.

    The Obamas didn’t start rich, as far as I’m aware - far from it. Should I be outraged they have made so much money? I don’t know.
    The world is riddled with sin, and I don’t regard Obama’s Netflix deal as a great horror.

    My ideal is humble, down to earth politicos who retire to Georgian rectories or similar to write their memos, but that world don’t exist.
    Wilson retired to the Scilly Isles, Major's main home is a 4 bed in Cambridgeshire, Brown retired back to Kirkcaldy.

    George W Bush of course still lives on a ranch in Texas on the other side of the country from NYC or California or DC
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Tres said:

    Has any democratic nation, in the democratic age, decided - “you know what, independence is shite, I think I’ll fold myself back into xxx”?

    I can’t think of any.

    Have I invented a new rule? A bit like the Amartya Sen’s realisation that democracies don’t have famines?

    Texas? Those Dutch caribbean islands?
    Texas is great example, wish I'd thought of it first.

    South Vietnam? Certainly plenty of folks down there with buyer's (or seller's?) remorse re: reunification.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    This is why going back on our word is such a bad idea: it doesn't just damage our relations with our friends, it was always going to be quoted back at us when we accuse others of not honouring their commitments. Not too late to stop this act of self harm
    https://twitter.com/GavinBarwell/status/1542940364771921920
    https://twitter.com/ChinaEmbIreland/status/1542908356448354304
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,930
    edited July 2022
    Also, on the indy front, in 1956 Malta voted to become part of the UK with 3 seats in the UK Parliament. Yes won 77-23 but only 60% turnout as the nationalists boycotted so it never went ahead.
    Thats probably the closest UK related example. The UK wasnt keen on it either as it would have set a precedent they didnt want - i.e. losing control of the Commons to blocs from integrated colonies
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,090

    Also, on the indy front, in 1956 Malta voted to become part of the UK with 3 seats in the UK Parliament. Yes won 77-23 but only 60% turnout as the nationalists boycotted so it never went ahead.
    Thats probably the closest UK related example. The UK wasnt keen on it either as it would have set a precedent they didnt want - i.e. losing control of the Commons to blocs from integrated colonies

    That's fascinating. India should have done a reverse takeover.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,162
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    Remainers have never been able to answer the simplest questions despite maintaining frequently that we retained sovereignty while we were in the EU.

    Like: If the UK is a democratic sovereign nation within the EU describe (omitting all whataboutery) by what process, involving only voting and democratic and democratically elected parliamentary processes the people of the UK could effect a change in how EU rules on FoM or VAT worked in the UK, or repeal any part of EU legislation insofar as it touches the interests of the UK.
    Ooh me sir me sir pick me sir please.

    Ans: because the UK voted to join the club and the club has rules. Like if I wanted to go to the Royal Meeting at Ascot in the Royal Enclosure and tried to wear jeans and a t-shirt when the requirement is for formal dress. I can unilaterally decide that I will accept those rules or not. As regards the EU it was the latter.

    All the actions of a perfectly "democratic sovereign nation".

    Your welcome.
    The infantile nature of the response reveals that there is, of course, no sensible answer to @algakirk’s question that does not admit his point

    The EU is horribly and painfully undemocratic, it was designed that way. You can accept that this corrosion of our democracy is worth it in return for the benefits - single market, free movement, etc - but you cannot deny it, as many Remainers once tried to do

    @algakirk’s question FPT is a reasonable one. But if I can briefly indulge in some forbidden whataboutery, let's take NATO. As a NATO member our obligation to go to war on behalf of other members is absolute; there is zero democratic accountability about it. By contrast the EU doesn't make such absolute demands on its members and it does have a degree of democratic accountability, albeit constrained by member state governments. So why are we in NATO?

    So maybe the perceived benefit of NATO is greater than that of the EU. But this is an opinion, not a principle.

    The point is, you enter into international alliances to obtain benefits that aren't otherwise available and in doing so you submit yourself to the collective decision. The principle is the same whether it's EU, NATO or another treaty.

    This isn't a hypothetical point. While people voted Brexit "to take control", they actually voted to have less of the things they presumably want - prosperity, trade, freedoms, good relations with neighbours, influence etc. And what do we do if we decide at some point we want some of those benefits back again? The Brexit problem lies there
    Salute your learned efforts but I personally can't be arsed to do similar. I've reached a strong and settled view that all this tortuous sovereignty wonking from Leavers with a vocab is in essence their way of trying to explain to their own satisfaction (not ours) why they (who are not stupid) voted for something which palpably is.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,547
    Leon said:

    Leon, here's a conversation starter for you

    List of Montenegrin Players in National Basketball Association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montenegrin_NBA_players#:~:text=Nikola Vučević, Marko Simonović and,only Montenegrins in the NBA.

    One thing, which L can perhaps confirm, is that Montenegrins have tendency toward tallness.

    Leon, here's a conversation starter for you

    List of Montenegrin Players in National Basketball Association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montenegrin_NBA_players#:~:text=Nikola Vučević, Marko Simonović and,only Montenegrins in the NBA.

    One thing, which L can perhaps confirm, is that Montenegrins have tendency toward tallness.

    They are tall. And generally slender (almost no obesity in the young here). They are also very good looking, a fact noted by Rebecca West back in the 1930s and still true now. They benefit from some perfect storm of angular Slavic genes, an agreeable climate making for an active lifestyle (everyone swimming or hiking year round), a simple but wholesome peasant diet, lots of greens and fish

    If you plucked out 100 random Montenegrin girls aged 18-25 more than half would be notably or strikingly pretty, is my guess. Perhaps a world record. The young men are likewise tall rangy and handsome

    The Croatians are similarly beautiful but they have a surliness, in my experience, That moody Slav thing. The Montenegrins don’t appear to have that at all, dunno why. They are more like Russians in their warm generosity

    Here ends my outrageous list of ridiculous generalisations
    Could be that the Montenegins have always thought of themselves as a free people, never - or at least seldom - under the rule of any outside power. Not so with the Croats.

    One sign of Croat subjugation (maybe) is that the invented (or popularized) the necktie = cravat.
This discussion has been closed.