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What is it about Johnson’s Tory party at the moment? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,185
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,099

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I haven't, but I do know many who have (only consensually) who are not sex workers, and that's just from what people have said. I'm past my days of playing "never have I ever" while drinking anymore, but if you were to ask that with people answering honestly, I think you might be surprised how many people would drink.
    Oh I am sure it happens all the time, it has happened at places I have worked, I just think it is both unprofessional and gross.
    OK there we can reach agreement. 👍

    I've never done it myself, because I too think its unprofessional and gross, but I don't think its gross misconduct (unless there are aggravating factors) and I certainly don't think its sexual misconduct.
    It is undoubtedly both. Because it is sexual misconduct to do it where your colleagues might encounter you, or your mess. Instant frogmarch to HR and sent home pending the dismissal procedure.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 11,232

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW from @IpsosUK: Labour lead at 11.

    Lab 41% (+2 from May)
    Con 30% (-3)
    Lib Dems 15% (+3)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Other 8% (-3)

    But the real story is on party image. THREAD

    1/ Cons at all time low on being seen as 'fit to govern'. Labour lead by default. UK politics in a nutshell? https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1542812840360280064/photo/1

    Pinging @HYUFD to say that Labour would have to be ten points in the lead Labour would have to be fifteen points in the lead, for it to matter.

    Boris should resign. Not because he had sex, but because he's not good enough anymore. 👎
    My impression is that the Tory figure has reflected core vote for some time but even that is contingent on the assumption Boris will go some time before the GE. If he doesn't, I could see well less than 30% being reported in due course.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,507
    Leon said:

    Insert your own joke about Johnson having a hairdresser:

    I'd be really careful about dropping stuff like that on to PB, unmediated. Potentially, that is grossly libellous
    For Canadian hairdressers? Probably.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,967

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW from @IpsosUK: Labour lead at 11.

    Lab 41% (+2 from May)
    Con 30% (-3)
    Lib Dems 15% (+3)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Other 8% (-3)

    But the real story is on party image. THREAD

    1/ Cons at all time low on being seen as 'fit to govern'. Labour lead by default. UK politics in a nutshell? https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1542812840360280064/photo/1

    Pinging @HYUFD to say that Labour would have to be ten points in the lead Labour would have to be fifteen points in the lead, for it to matter.

    Boris should resign. Not because he had sex, but because he's not good enough anymore. 👎
    My impression is that the Tory figure has reflected core vote for some time but even that is contingent on the assumption Boris will go some time before the GE. If he doesn't, I could see well less than 30% being reported in due course.
    I'm not sure how much of a Tory "core vote" actually exists anymore.

    I mean in the past I would have considered people like Big G, Casino, Max, many more and myself to be "PB Tories" but we've all said that we either might not or would not vote Tory next time.

    Politics is a lot less tribal than it used to be, so the core of people like HYUFD who would vote Tory no matter what is possibly a lot smaller than we imagine.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,943
    From March 2020 to June 2022, the US added the same amount of debt ($7 trillion) as the previous 215 years.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    MattW said:

    Suspensions/resignations from party this Parliament due to scandal:

    SNP (out of 48): Hanvey, Ferrier, Grady
    Plaid (out of 4): Edwards
    Labour (out of 202): Webbe, Coyle
    Tory (out of 365): Roberts, Khan, Warburton, Parish… and we wait to see on Pincher

    Proportionately speaking, Plaid are the worst, followed by SNP, then Conservative, then Labour, with LibDem, Green, DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance all clean. Small sample size effects clearly an issue.

    Labour also suspended Corbyn
    The Conservatives also suspended Julian Lewis, but I was trying to stick to scandals of morality rather than more political arguments.

    I think those lists are far from complete - suspect for all parties, and that 'suspension' is a blunt measure. Depending on your definition of 'scandal', and whether you mean "offences in this Parliament" or "verdict in this Parliament". Some do a pre-emptive runner.

    What's the overlap between scandal, sexual misconduct, harassment, and bullying?

    This is the list of published verdicts where charges were upheld from The Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS) since the start of 2021. Sorry I don't know how to do a monospaced font on PB:

    We can't rely on an allegations alone as requiring action, since some are not upheld (at least 2 excluded from this list), and others stay in their frontbench positions, or backbench MP roles.

    Date published Reporter Respondent Party Offence
    19/04/21 F Mr Jared O Mara Labour Sexual Misconduct
    20/05/21 F Mr Mike Hill Labour Sexual Misconduct
    25/05/21 M Mr Rob Roberts Conservative Sexual Misconduct
    14/06/21 F Mr Daniel Kawczinski Conservative Bullying & Harassment
    23/09/21 M Mr Keith Vaz Labour Bullying & Harassment
    08/03/22 MMF Mr John Bercow Speaker Bullying & Harassment
    28/04/22 M Mr Liam Byrne Labour Bullying & Harassment
    14/06/22 M Mr Patrick Grady SNP Sexual Misconduct

    Plus at least Fiona Onasanya, and Natalie McGarry who copped two years in prison this week.
    One can look at the question in a variety of ways and I welcome a range of methodologies.

    I note the ICGS has a certain remit, so it excludes some sorts of cases (e.g., Edwards). I also note it is quite slow — with reasons — to reach a conclusion, so many in your list are not in the 2019 Parliament. The same applies to McGarry.

    Using my approach for the 2017-9 Parliament, nearly all the cases were from Labour, plus one Tory and one DUP. 2015-7, there’s 2 SNP and 1 Labour. Labour are ahead on the 2010-5 figures too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,882

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,048
    edited July 1
    If you apply the vote share changes at the Wakefield by-election to Tamworth you get Con 49%, Lab 32%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wakefield_by-election#Results
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamworth_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,458

    "Another odd feature is that so far at least it is mostly confined to Tory MPs."

    Is this actually backed up by the evidence on a longer timescale?

    The by-election in Hartlepool was precipitated by allegations (later confirmed in an Employment Tribunal) against the Labour MP.

    I doubt there is a particular link between political affiliation and being a wrong'un. However, I do suspect that the more recent history is related to the Conservatives having been in office a long time and having a leader who is uniquely poorly placed to insist on high standards of personal behaviour.

    Poor Mr Johnson - it's just blow after blow for him lately.
    Indeed. Plus the SNP have their own issues with Patrick Grady too.

    All parties have issues, but its quite standard for the Party of Government to have many more visible problems than the Opposition.

    Patrick Grady was far more senior for his party than Pincher, but Pincher is the one that gets the headlines because he's a Tory and the Tories have Downing Street.

    Also the Government obviously have many more MPs, so will have more opportunities for 'bad eggs' as a result.
    That we have MPs crossing the line is not party-political or something new. Not that long ago that "I drank too much" was a Labour MP or two in the headlines. Before that a string of Tories. Or Jeremy Thorpe. Etc etc.

    The issue here is that (a) the Tory Party invariably knows that MP x is a deviant and (b) refuses to do anything abut it. Or in the case of Pincher - who reportedly needed a party handler to ensure he didn't get smashed and start ball fondling - they actually promoted him to the whips office - twice.

    This is the partisan bit. There are bad MPs in all parties But the Tories seem happy to both ignore and even promote such behaviour. That the PM liked to get sucked off in his office by his mistress probably explains the air of "so what" in the party.
    The SNP didn't just promote Grady to the Whips office, they made him Chief Whip.

    As you say, it happens in all parties. That the Lib Dems can squeeze into a taxi probably makes it less likely for them.
    I don't know, in the 1970s the old liberal party's mps were pretty much all either crooks or perverts. Or both.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033

    Suspensions/resignations from party this Parliament due to scandal:

    SNP (out of 48): Hanvey, Ferrier, Grady
    Plaid (out of 4): Edwards
    Labour (out of 202): Webbe, Coyle
    Tory (out of 365): Roberts, Khan, Warburton, Parish… and we wait to see on Pincher

    Proportionately speaking, Plaid are the worst, followed by SNP, then Conservative, then Labour, with LibDem, Green, DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance all clean. Small sample size effects clearly an issue.

    TBH that last para is meaningless, since you have nothing like consistent data,
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,860
    edited July 1



    Would the damages be set by a jury or a judge? If the former, it might be £1.....

    Plus legal costs for both sides of £xxxxxxxxxxxx. Agree with Leon it's best avoided.

    It's not as though there was a shortage of Tory sex cases...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Why not just invest in these ?

    https://www.bresseruk.com/HF2-BT81S-A-Complete-binocular-telescope-set.html?mtm_campaign=Google_Shopping&mtm_kwd=X000163&mtm_source=English&mtm_medium=CPC&mtm_cid=UK&mtm_group=PLA&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtvqVBhCVARIsAFUxcRt6hE0I5BgrQbuPI7UjtNmnNEU2D4zXOOAAkHOiTv0Ao9a5LmU99g0aAhkwEALw_wcB
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    edited July 1
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I haven't, but I do know many who have (only consensually) who are not sex workers, and that's just from what people have said. I'm past my days of playing "never have I ever" while drinking anymore, but if you were to ask that with people answering honestly, I think you might be surprised how many people would drink.
    Oh I am sure it happens all the time, it has happened at places I have worked, I just think it is both unprofessional and gross.
    OK there we can reach agreement. 👍

    I've never done it myself, because I too think its unprofessional and gross, but I don't think its gross misconduct (unless there are aggravating factors) and I certainly don't think its sexual misconduct.
    It is undoubtedly both. Because it is sexual misconduct to do it where your colleagues might encounter you, or your mess. Instant frogmarch to HR and sent home pending the dismissal procedure.
    Friend of mine was 'caught in the act' and that's exactly what happened to him.

    Edit: not sure about her!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,160

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,882

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    Steve Bray IS a knob, tho. That is the exact word. Knob

    His entire life is dedicated to being an irritating prick
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033

    MattW said:

    Suspensions/resignations from party this Parliament due to scandal:

    SNP (out of 48): Hanvey, Ferrier, Grady
    Plaid (out of 4): Edwards
    Labour (out of 202): Webbe, Coyle
    Tory (out of 365): Roberts, Khan, Warburton, Parish… and we wait to see on Pincher

    Proportionately speaking, Plaid are the worst, followed by SNP, then Conservative, then Labour, with LibDem, Green, DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance all clean. Small sample size effects clearly an issue.

    Labour also suspended Corbyn
    The Conservatives also suspended Julian Lewis, but I was trying to stick to scandals of morality rather than more political arguments.

    I think those lists are far from complete - suspect for all parties, and that 'suspension' is a blunt measure. Depending on your definition of 'scandal', and whether you mean "offences in this Parliament" or "verdict in this Parliament". Some do a pre-emptive runner.

    What's the overlap between scandal, sexual misconduct, harassment, and bullying?

    This is the list of published verdicts where charges were upheld from The Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS) since the start of 2021. Sorry I don't know how to do a monospaced font on PB:

    We can't rely on an allegations alone as requiring action, since some are not upheld (at least 2 excluded from this list), and others stay in their frontbench positions, or backbench MP roles.

    Date published Reporter Respondent Party Offence
    19/04/21 F Mr Jared O Mara Labour Sexual Misconduct
    20/05/21 F Mr Mike Hill Labour Sexual Misconduct
    25/05/21 M Mr Rob Roberts Conservative Sexual Misconduct
    14/06/21 F Mr Daniel Kawczinski Conservative Bullying & Harassment
    23/09/21 M Mr Keith Vaz Labour Bullying & Harassment
    08/03/22 MMF Mr John Bercow Speaker Bullying & Harassment
    28/04/22 M Mr Liam Byrne Labour Bullying & Harassment
    14/06/22 M Mr Patrick Grady SNP Sexual Misconduct

    Plus at least Fiona Onasanya, and Natalie McGarry who copped two years in prison this week.
    One can look at the question in a variety of ways and I welcome a range of methodologies.

    I note the ICGS has a certain remit, so it excludes some sorts of cases (e.g., Edwards). I also note it is quite slow — with reasons — to reach a conclusion, so many in your list are not in the 2019 Parliament. The same applies to McGarry.

    Using my approach for the 2017-9 Parliament, nearly all the cases were from Labour, plus one Tory and one DUP. 2015-7, there’s 2 SNP and 1 Labour. Labour are ahead on the 2010-5 figures too.
    Agree there - it's a toughie.

    And 'lynch law by media' is a thing, too. Because it's also about politics.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,233
    ...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,943
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.

    Hanky panky Hancock had to go for a quick smooch with his lady friend in the office.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    That was quite amusing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,160

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.

    Hanky panky Hancock had to go for a quick smooch with his lady friend in the office.
    That's all we need now. To learn that there were cameras in the Foreign Secretary's office ..... !
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,695

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    OBSCURE????!!!!!???

    HVDY
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,233
    Boris Johnson shakes the hand of Jacinda Ardern in front of No.10 as reporter shouts at him: "Are you drowning in sleaze?!"
    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1542816972257300480
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited July 1

    "Another odd feature is that so far at least it is mostly confined to Tory MPs."

    Is this actually backed up by the evidence on a longer timescale?

    The by-election in Hartlepool was precipitated by allegations (later confirmed in an Employment Tribunal) against the Labour MP.

    I doubt there is a particular link between political affiliation and being a wrong'un. However, I do suspect that the more recent history is related to the Conservatives having been in office a long time and having a leader who is uniquely poorly placed to insist on high standards of personal behaviour.

    Poor Mr Johnson - it's just blow after blow for him lately.
    Indeed. Plus the SNP have their own issues with Patrick Grady too.

    All parties have issues, but its quite standard for the Party of Government to have many more visible problems than the Opposition.

    Patrick Grady was far more senior for his party than Pincher, but Pincher is the one that gets the headlines because he's a Tory and the Tories have Downing Street.

    Also the Government obviously have many more MPs, so will have more opportunities for 'bad eggs' as a result.
    That we have MPs crossing the line is not party-political or something new. Not that long ago that "I drank too much" was a Labour MP or two in the headlines. Before that a string of Tories. Or Jeremy Thorpe. Etc etc.

    The issue here is that (a) the Tory Party invariably knows that MP x is a deviant and (b) refuses to do anything abut it. Or in the case of Pincher - who reportedly needed a party handler to ensure he didn't get smashed and start ball fondling - they actually promoted him to the whips office - twice.

    This is the partisan bit. There are bad MPs in all parties But the Tories seem happy to both ignore and even promote such behaviour. That the PM liked to get sucked off in his office by his mistress probably explains the air of "so what" in the party.
    There are also demographic factors.

    eg M vs F and LGB in Parliament wrt the population.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,160
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    It's at this point in a man's life that he takes up gardening .........
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Suspensions/resignations from party this Parliament due to scandal:

    SNP (out of 48): Hanvey, Ferrier, Grady
    Plaid (out of 4): Edwards
    Labour (out of 202): Webbe, Coyle
    Tory (out of 365): Roberts, Khan, Warburton, Parish… and we wait to see on Pincher

    Proportionately speaking, Plaid are the worst, followed by SNP, then Conservative, then Labour, with LibDem, Green, DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance all clean. Small sample size effects clearly an issue.

    Labour also suspended Corbyn
    The Conservatives also suspended Julian Lewis, but I was trying to stick to scandals of morality rather than more political arguments.

    I think those lists are far from complete - suspect for all parties, and that 'suspension' is a blunt measure. Depending on your definition of 'scandal', and whether you mean "offences in this Parliament" or "verdict in this Parliament". Some do a pre-emptive runner.

    What's the overlap between scandal, sexual misconduct, harassment, and bullying?

    This is the list of published verdicts where charges were upheld from The Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS) since the start of 2021. Sorry I don't know how to do a monospaced font on PB:

    We can't rely on an allegations alone as requiring action, since some are not upheld (at least 2 excluded from this list), and others stay in their frontbench positions, or backbench MP roles.

    Date published Reporter Respondent Party Offence
    19/04/21 F Mr Jared O Mara Labour Sexual Misconduct
    20/05/21 F Mr Mike Hill Labour Sexual Misconduct
    25/05/21 M Mr Rob Roberts Conservative Sexual Misconduct
    14/06/21 F Mr Daniel Kawczinski Conservative Bullying & Harassment
    23/09/21 M Mr Keith Vaz Labour Bullying & Harassment
    08/03/22 MMF Mr John Bercow Speaker Bullying & Harassment
    28/04/22 M Mr Liam Byrne Labour Bullying & Harassment
    14/06/22 M Mr Patrick Grady SNP Sexual Misconduct

    Plus at least Fiona Onasanya, and Natalie McGarry who copped two years in prison this week.
    One can look at the question in a variety of ways and I welcome a range of methodologies.

    I note the ICGS has a certain remit, so it excludes some sorts of cases (e.g., Edwards). I also note it is quite slow — with reasons — to reach a conclusion, so many in your list are not in the 2019 Parliament. The same applies to McGarry.

    Using my approach for the 2017-9 Parliament, nearly all the cases were from Labour, plus one Tory and one DUP. 2015-7, there’s 2 SNP and 1 Labour. Labour are ahead on the 2010-5 figures too.
    Agree there - it's a toughie.

    And 'lynch law by media' is a thing, too. Because it's also about politics.
    The actions of, say, McGarry, Vaz or Pincher should be above party politics. However, I think politics plays a role because a party that is divided is more likely to leak and the stories emerge. A Conservative Party at ease with itself would not have MPs lining up to brief against the situation. It is ironic that the more dysfunctional a party is, the more moral it becomes in exposing malfeasance.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    Steve Bray IS a knob, tho. That is the exact word. Knob

    His entire life is dedicated to being an irritating prick
    It seems a rather unfortunate way to p*ss a life away.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,695

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I haven't, but I do know many who have (only consensually) who are not sex workers, and that's just from what people have said. I'm past my days of playing "never have I ever" while drinking anymore, but if you were to ask that with people answering honestly, I think you might be surprised how many people would drink.
    Oh I am sure it happens all the time, it has happened at places I have worked, I just think it is both unprofessional and gross.
    I've never done it myself, because I too think its unprofessional and gross
    Erm and also because you are happily married.

    (In case you leave the computer open at home when you get up for a coffee break.)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,259
    Leon said:

    Insert your own joke about Johnson having a hairdresser:

    I'd be really careful about dropping stuff like that on to PB, unmediated. Potentially, that is grossly libellous
    All sorts of weird and wonderful rumours fly about the Westminster village. I was once told - by someone who was genuinely well involved in the Tory/Westminster scene - that when Jeffery Archer was caught trying to hire a prostitute he was actually doing so on behalf of Denis Thatcher. Obvious poppycock, of course, but it was a story doing the rounds.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,943
    edited July 1
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shakes the hand of Jacinda Ardern in front of No.10 as reporter shouts at him: "Are you drowning in sleaze?!"
    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1542816972257300480

    I am surprised Ardern is in the UK, let alone shaking hands with anybody, given how widespread COVID is in the UK.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    edited July 1
    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,943
    edited July 1
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    Steve Bray IS a knob, tho. That is the exact word. Knob

    His entire life is dedicated to being an irritating prick
    It seems a rather unfortunate way to p*ss a life away.
    Its now his job....he was a nobody before this, now in his mind he is a somebody. Its the new midlife crisis, just like Gary Lineker and Loz Fox making idiots of themselves on twitter for the likes, retweets and engagement.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,660

    Alistair said:

    @Leon

    Evidence of sinsiter plan beinng enacted by super intelligent AI unwittingly unleashed on the world or self-driving cars being a bit crap? You decide.

    https://twitter.com/urbenschneider/status/1542645823787257856

    Be more concerned when the super AI decides to start mowing people down like a scene out of Westworld.
    Ah, it's subtle - this happens so often that they are frequently blocking emergency vehicles. Stochastic Murder.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 11,232
    rcs1000 said:

    "Another odd feature is that so far at least it is mostly confined to Tory MPs."

    Is this actually backed up by the evidence on a longer timescale?

    The by-election in Hartlepool was precipitated by allegations (later confirmed in an Employment Tribunal) against the Labour MP.

    I doubt there is a particular link between political affiliation and being a wrong'un. However, I do suspect that the more recent history is related to the Conservatives having been in office a long time and having a leader who is uniquely poorly placed to insist on high standards of personal behaviour.

    Poor Mr Johnson - it's just blow after blow for him lately.
    Indeed. Plus the SNP have their own issues with Patrick Grady too.

    All parties have issues, but its quite standard for the Party of Government to have many more visible problems than the Opposition.

    Patrick Grady was far more senior for his party than Pincher, but Pincher is the one that gets the headlines because he's a Tory and the Tories have Downing Street.

    Also the Government obviously have many more MPs, so will have more opportunities for 'bad eggs' as a result.
    That we have MPs crossing the line is not party-political or something new. Not that long ago that "I drank too much" was a Labour MP or two in the headlines. Before that a string of Tories. Or Jeremy Thorpe. Etc etc.

    The issue here is that (a) the Tory Party invariably knows that MP x is a deviant and (b) refuses to do anything abut it. Or in the case of Pincher - who reportedly needed a party handler to ensure he didn't get smashed and start ball fondling - they actually promoted him to the whips office - twice.

    This is the partisan bit. There are bad MPs in all parties But the Tories seem happy to both ignore and even promote such behaviour. That the PM liked to get sucked off in his office by his mistress probably explains the air of "so what" in the party.
    The SNP didn't just promote Grady to the Whips office, they made him Chief Whip.

    As you say, it happens in all parties. That the Lib Dems can squeeze into a taxi probably makes it less likely for them.
    I don't know, in the 1970s the old liberal party's mps were pretty much all either crooks or perverts. Or both.
    And nobody really cared until the dog got shot. :(
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    Steve Bray IS a knob, tho. That is the exact word. Knob

    His entire life is dedicated to being an irritating prick
    Given your flint knapping skills, surely you could remove a few of his rougher edges?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    That's quite a powerful self-image you have there. Have you developed the "thousand yard stare"?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,487

    Bugger, fell into the curse of the new thread. I'd just posted this:

    Just read an interesting thought on Twitter, don't know how realistic a prospect it would be.

    The tweeter's saying that if Starmer were to get the FPN and had to resign - and they suppose the Tories are probably putting the pressure on behind the scenes for one to be issued - then the govt will go for an election whilst Labour are leaderless.

    Machiavellian but I can imagine it happening.

    I think it would totally blow up in the Tories faces and quite probably cause a constituional crisis as well.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,943
    edited July 1
    Given all the WFH during pandemic and still going on now...I have a sneaking suspicion a fair bit of those taking the opportunity to engage in a bit of on the job action.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,155
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW from @IpsosUK: Labour lead at 11.

    Lab 41% (+2 from May)
    Con 30% (-3)
    Lib Dems 15% (+3)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Other 8% (-3)

    But the real story is on party image. THREAD

    1/ Cons at all time low on being seen as 'fit to govern'. Labour lead by default. UK politics in a nutshell? https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1542812840360280064/photo/1

    Latest Yougov however has the Tories on 33% and Labour just 3% ahead

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1542453510251466752?s=20&t=tTskgn0o_AKMgndRlFDbhg
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,354

    Leon said:

    Insert your own joke about Johnson having a hairdresser:

    I'd be really careful about dropping stuff like that on to PB, unmediated. Potentially, that is grossly libellous
    All sorts of weird and wonderful rumours fly about the Westminster village. I was once told - by someone who was genuinely well involved in the Tory/Westminster scene - that when Jeffery Archer was caught trying to hire a prostitute he was actually doing so on behalf of Denis Thatcher. Obvious poppycock, of course, but it was a story doing the rounds.
    Ha, I was told similar (by a Sky news guy), except it was on behalf of a very prominent member of the Thatch cabinet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    Cicero said:

    Bugger, fell into the curse of the new thread. I'd just posted this:

    Just read an interesting thought on Twitter, don't know how realistic a prospect it would be.

    The tweeter's saying that if Starmer were to get the FPN and had to resign - and they suppose the Tories are probably putting the pressure on behind the scenes for one to be issued - then the govt will go for an election whilst Labour are leaderless.

    Machiavellian but I can imagine it happening.

    I think it would totally blow up in the Tories faces and quite probably cause a constituional crisis as well.
    Certainly the first!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240

    @BartholomewRoberts

    ' I couldn't care less what consenting adults do behind closed doors, and I'm not a puritan.'

    Few on here would disagree, Bart, but context is everything and it just seems another example of sleazy behaviour by a sleazy government.

    It's well past its sell by date, as I think you agree, but we may have to wait for the clock to run down to the end of its term.

    Yep - it really is Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide, isn't it?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    Cicero said:

    Bugger, fell into the curse of the new thread. I'd just posted this:

    Just read an interesting thought on Twitter, don't know how realistic a prospect it would be.

    The tweeter's saying that if Starmer were to get the FPN and had to resign - and they suppose the Tories are probably putting the pressure on behind the scenes for one to be issued - then the govt will go for an election whilst Labour are leaderless.

    Machiavellian but I can imagine it happening.

    I think it would totally blow up in the Tories faces and quite probably cause a constituional crisis as well.
    I suspect Starmer would stay in place and the reselection would be scheduled for the party conference. The voters would see it for what it is - desperate opportunism - and it would probably cost Boris votes.

    So let us hope that it happens...
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,760
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I just made a bunch of comments at the end of the last thread.

    Sigh.

    I spent over an hour effusing over why I thought Steve Bray was a nob the other day without realising everyone else was over 300 comments into a new thread.

    It happens.
    Steve Bray IS a knob, tho. That is the exact word. Knob

    His entire life is dedicated to being an irritating prick
    He was nominatively determined to be a noisy ass.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,354
    rcs1000 said:

    Regarding sex at work, we have a very simple policy. If the sex is with me, then it's ok. If it is not, then it's misconduct.

    This policy has yet to be tested.

    So all the sex at work is with you thus far?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,048

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shakes the hand of Jacinda Ardern in front of No.10 as reporter shouts at him: "Are you drowning in sleaze?!"
    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1542816972257300480

    I am surprised Ardern is in the UK, let alone shaking hands with anybody, given how widespread COVID is in the UK.
    It's endemic now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,205
    rcs1000 said:

    Regarding sex at work, we have a very simple policy. If the sex is with me, then it's ok. If it is not, then it's misconduct.

    This policy has yet to be tested.

    What does Ultimate Management (aka She Who Must Be Obeyed) think of this policy?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,410
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,967

    rcs1000 said:

    Regarding sex at work, we have a very simple policy. If the sex is with me, then it's ok. If it is not, then it's misconduct.

    This policy has yet to be tested.

    What does Ultimate Management (aka She Who Must Be Obeyed) think of this policy?
    She's refused to put the policy to the test.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    I'm sure you'd have told him exactly what to do with his hard drive. :smile:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179

    Cicero said:

    Bugger, fell into the curse of the new thread. I'd just posted this:

    Just read an interesting thought on Twitter, don't know how realistic a prospect it would be.

    The tweeter's saying that if Starmer were to get the FPN and had to resign - and they suppose the Tories are probably putting the pressure on behind the scenes for one to be issued - then the govt will go for an election whilst Labour are leaderless.

    Machiavellian but I can imagine it happening.

    I think it would totally blow up in the Tories faces and quite probably cause a constituional crisis as well.
    I suspect Starmer would stay in place and the reselection would be scheduled for the party conference. The voters would see it for what it is - desperate opportunism - and it would probably cost Boris votes.

    So let us hope that it happens...
    On the doors!
    The Labour Party has no leader; who is going to be PM.?
    Reply: But look at the one of the Tories have got! Whoever it is is bound to be better!
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,967
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    I'm sure you'd have told him exactly what to do with his hard drive. :smile:
    She wouldn't have been asking for his 3½" floppy.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322

    Cicero said:

    Bugger, fell into the curse of the new thread. I'd just posted this:

    Just read an interesting thought on Twitter, don't know how realistic a prospect it would be.

    The tweeter's saying that if Starmer were to get the FPN and had to resign - and they suppose the Tories are probably putting the pressure on behind the scenes for one to be issued - then the govt will go for an election whilst Labour are leaderless.

    Machiavellian but I can imagine it happening.

    I think it would totally blow up in the Tories faces and quite probably cause a constituional crisis as well.
    I suspect Starmer would stay in place and the reselection would be scheduled for the party conference. The voters would see it for what it is - desperate opportunism - and it would probably cost Boris votes.

    So let us hope that it happens...
    On the doors!
    The Labour Party has no leader; who is going to be PM.?
    Reply: But look at the one of the Tories have got! Whoever it is is bound to be better!
    Step forward Ed Davey?

    :D
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,507

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shakes the hand of Jacinda Ardern in front of No.10 as reporter shouts at him: "Are you drowning in sleaze?!"
    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1542816972257300480

    I am surprised Ardern is in the UK, let alone shaking hands with anybody, given how widespread COVID is in the UK.
    Hello from the Excel. Having spent yesterday in London getting uncomfortably close to sweaty people on the tube and now here in a big exhibition all with thousands milling about, I'm at risk of coming home with Covid AND Monkeypox :)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW from @IpsosUK: Labour lead at 11.

    Lab 41% (+2 from May)
    Con 30% (-3)
    Lib Dems 15% (+3)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Other 8% (-3)

    But the real story is on party image. THREAD

    1/ Cons at all time low on being seen as 'fit to govern'. Labour lead by default. UK politics in a nutshell? https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1542812840360280064/photo/1

    Latest Yougov however has the Tories on 33% and Labour just 3% ahead

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1542453510251466752?s=20&t=tTskgn0o_AKMgndRlFDbhg
    Indications are labour lead by approx 6% average, but time for you to accept that Johnson is toxic for the conservative party
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    Unless you are on divorce No.6...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,099

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "suspect" - you are too kind.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,410
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    Johnson wouldn't have lasted two minutes in finance. The days of the posh boy bluffer are long behind us.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520
    Sex at work has always seemed to me, like most fantasies, something better kept as a fantasy.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,160
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    It's at this point in a man's life that he takes up gardening .........
    One day I am going to write a piece about the similarities between gardening and great sex. You will look at middle aged women in a new light after that.

    But not today. I have to earn my living and I'm taking Monday off to go to the Hampton Court Flower Show so ....
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    Johnson wouldn't have lasted two minutes in finance. The days of the posh boy bluffer are long behind us.
    In finance, it's ok to make errors, as long as you admit to them, and don't cover them up. Thats the golden rule I've learnt in my time.

    Boris hasn't, and like you said, wouldn't last 5 minutes as a result
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    I'm sure you'd have told him exactly what to do with his hard drive. :smile:
    Ms Cyclfree did you ever have to interview Nigel Farage?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Javier Blas
    @JavierBlas
    ·
    4h
    In the middle of the summer, when we should be saving as much natural gas as possible for winter, European nations are burning lots of gas for electricity generation.

    The UK is now generating >60% of its electricity output burning gas. We will come to regret it this winter.

    https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1542759108914323456
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520

    Javier Blas
    @JavierBlas
    ·
    4h
    In the middle of the summer, when we should be saving as much natural gas as possible for winter, European nations are burning lots of gas for electricity generation.

    The UK is now generating >60% of its electricity output burning gas. We will come to regret it this winter.

    https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1542759108914323456

    We have no storage, so doesn't really matter.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,919
    MattW said:

    Suspensions/resignations from party this Parliament due to scandal:

    SNP (out of 48): Hanvey, Ferrier, Grady
    Plaid (out of 4): Edwards
    Labour (out of 202): Webbe, Coyle
    Tory (out of 365): Roberts, Khan, Warburton, Parish… and we wait to see on Pincher

    Proportionately speaking, Plaid are the worst, followed by SNP, then Conservative, then Labour, with LibDem, Green, DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance all clean. Small sample size effects clearly an issue.

    TBH that last para is meaningless, since you have nothing like consistent data,
    Bit disappointed with the LDs there. They should be doing better.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    We are of the most extreme type.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,542
    .

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW from @IpsosUK: Labour lead at 11.

    Lab 41% (+2 from May)
    Con 30% (-3)
    Lib Dems 15% (+3)
    Green 6% (+1)
    Other 8% (-3)

    But the real story is on party image. THREAD

    1/ Cons at all time low on being seen as 'fit to govern'. Labour lead by default. UK politics in a nutshell? https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1542812840360280064/photo/1

    Pinging @HYUFD to say that Labour would have to be ten points in the lead Labour would have to be fifteen points in the lead, for it to matter.

    Boris should resign. Not because he had sex, but because he's not good enough anymore. 👎
    My impression is that the Tory figure has reflected core vote for some time but even that is contingent on the assumption Boris will go some time before the GE. If he doesn't, I could see well less than 30% being reported in due course.
    I'm not sure how much of a Tory "core vote" actually exists anymore.

    I mean in the past I would have considered people like Big G, Casino, Max, many more and myself to be "PB Tories" but we've all said that we either might not or would not vote Tory next time.

    Politics is a lot less tribal than it used to be, so the core of people like HYUFD who would vote Tory no matter what is possibly a lot smaller than we imagine.
    Yes. There's a nightmare scenario for the Tories where, if they hang on to Johnson things steadily get worse as more voters reach a personal limit on what they will tolerate, but, if they get rid of him they may find they lose a lot of voters who are only sticking with the Tories because of his unique appeal.

    I don't think the situation is quite that bad, but it's not impossible.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    It is of course the early exit fee that is expensive. If someone's temperament is not suited to spending a lifetime or at least 20+ years together then it is indeed more expensive than being single. For those with a lifetime match it is cheaper. You are both correct.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,461
    JohnO said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Conservative problem here is NOT that they are randier, hornier or pervertier than Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, PC, etc.

    Instead, it's that
    a) there are more of them (that pesky 80-seat majority); and
    b) they are "lead" by pack of incompetents who not only share & are quite unable to curb these vices, but are compelled to publicize them as some freakish form of performance art.

    The Left is also much more prudish and Puritan than it used to be. They are the anti sex league

    So I imagine Labour MPs are self censoring their behaviour, hence getting into less trouble

    Being a bunch of useless boring joyless drones has its advantages
    If only there was a happy medium between being a boring, joylous drone on the one hand, and grabbing at penises in gentlemen's clubs, taking coke in an effort to impress women young enough to be your daughter, or watching pornography in the House of Commons on the other.

    It's such a fine line, isn't it?
    You'll be surprised to hear I'm with the penis-grabbing, coke-snorting, porn-watchers. Well, not the oenis grabbing, but you know what I mean

    I'd rather have my politicians made out of the normal crooked timber of humanity than be Woke Robots, cancelling everyone for having a libido

    From Churchill to Cromwell, JFK to FDR, Lloyd George to d'Annunzio, Martin Luther King to Paddy Ashdown, Alexander the Great to Jo Swinson, great leaders have had terrible human flaws. It's the price we pay
    I know you're being tongue in cheek about it (and we all get a tremendous kick out of you playing the part you do of the devil-may-care lothario who nevertheless has time to spend 23 hours a day posting below the line on a politics forum on t'internet).

    But which of Chris Pincher, David Warburton, and Neil Parish would you classify as "great leaders"? They are all rather inadequate (indeed extremely boring) politicians who are either unable or unwilling to exercise sensible levels of self-control around young men, young women, and tractors respectively.
    You're a very funny poster! One we haven't seen the like of since the great 'Lympe Pole' several years ago (his precise name escapes me).
    Avery...and yes he was very very good.
    You weren't so bad yourself. There were quite a few back then.

    ....You ....Avery.... Tim... Adrien H.....TUD....Jack....Scott.... Someone's Mum... and then we discovered the travelogue and we haven't looked back!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    I think I will make chicken pittas for lunch. C U L8tr ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,882

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    Not if your wife is beautiful and under 25. That was my “mistake”

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    Sex at work has always seemed to me, like most fantasies, something better kept as a fantasy.

    Well, I ended up marrying someone who worked for me on a couple of projects. I'd like to think we handled the start of our relationship maturely; although we dd not want it to be common knowledge, we both told our immediate superiors. They put in place some non-onerous restrictions.

    You have to allow relationships to form at work, especially if the people involved are single. It is a company's duty to try to ensure that the relationships formed at work don't become abusive or exploitative - even if it involves shuffling people about between departments.

    What's worse IMO is when someone has an affair with a colleague's spouse. I've seen the fallout from that, and it isn't pretty.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,205

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    Johnson wouldn't have lasted two minutes in finance. The days of the posh boy bluffer are long behind us.
    In finance, it's ok to make errors, as long as you admit to them, and don't cover them up. Thats the golden rule I've learnt in my time.

    Boris hasn't, and like you said, wouldn't last 5 minutes as a result
    You are Sir Desmond Glazebrook and I claim my 5 BT shares...


    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : They've broken the rules.
    Sir Humphrey : What, you mean the insider trading regulations?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : No.
    Sir Humphrey : Oh. Well, that's one relief.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic, the basic rule of the City.
    Sir Humphrey : I didn't know there were any.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
    Sir Humphrey : If you're crooked?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.
    Sir Humphrey : So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,882

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    It is of course the early exit fee that is expensive. If someone's temperament is not suited to spending a lifetime or at least 20+ years together then it is indeed more expensive than being single. For those with a lifetime match it is cheaper. You are both correct.
    It wasn’t the divorce that costed me, it was the lifestyle. She had an identical taste for hedonism, travel, fine wine, mad adventures

    Folie a deux
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,099

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    We are of the most extreme type.
    Imagine if any of us were academics in the field of pol and econ - we could get our draft papers pre-refereed for free on this site, work-hardened so that they are armour-plated for the actual journal submission. Neither even the least typo nor the minutest grammatical solecism is left unpunished.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,205

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    We are of the most extreme type.
    Your observation is extremely correct.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    They weren't behind closed doors. That's why we know about it. They could perfectly well have gone to a Travelodge in their lunch hour if they really couldn't wait. I'd say the same if it was his wife.
    It was yet another sign of his "don't care, I'm special, always have been" mentality.
    Yes, I'm a bit disappointed he didn't go into the City. I'd have enjoyed interviewing him, reading his emails and reviewing his hard drive (yes, yes, I know). The investigation report would have been fun to write.
    Johnson wouldn't have lasted two minutes in finance. The days of the posh boy bluffer are long behind us.
    In finance, it's ok to make errors, as long as you admit to them, and don't cover them up. Thats the golden rule I've learnt in my time.

    Boris hasn't, and like you said, wouldn't last 5 minutes as a result
    You are Sir Desmond Glazebrook and I claim my 5 BT shares...


    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : They've broken the rules.
    Sir Humphrey : What, you mean the insider trading regulations?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : No.
    Sir Humphrey : Oh. Well, that's one relief.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic, the basic rule of the City.
    Sir Humphrey : I didn't know there were any.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
    Sir Humphrey : If you're crooked?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.
    Sir Humphrey : So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook : Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you.
    Ha!

    Problem is Boris is stupid, crooked and incompetent...!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    Not if your wife is beautiful and under 25. That was my “mistake”
    Everyone's wife is beautiful.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    Perhaps that an exception can be so easily found shows your initial argument was slightly flawed? ;)

    I just looked at the list of 109 Tory MPs elected for the first time in 2019, and picked a name I did not know. What is 'most extreme' about this guy?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Evans_(politician)

    If anything, many of the latest intake on all sides seem rather anodyne. Few have made much of an impression on the public yet.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,048
    Tamworth of course was pretty much capital of the country about 1,200 years ago. It was capital of Mercia when Mercia was the most powerful kingdom in England.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,507

    Javier Blas
    @JavierBlas
    ·
    4h
    In the middle of the summer, when we should be saving as much natural gas as possible for winter, European nations are burning lots of gas for electricity generation.

    The UK is now generating >60% of its electricity output burning gas. We will come to regret it this winter.

    https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1542759108914323456

    Save it where? This government allowed the energy sector to close down ur strategic storage facilities for a profit's gain.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    It is of course the early exit fee that is expensive. If someone's temperament is not suited to spending a lifetime or at least 20+ years together then it is indeed more expensive than being single. For those with a lifetime match it is cheaper. You are both correct.
    It wasn’t the divorce that costed me, it was the lifestyle. She had an identical taste for hedonism, travel, fine wine, mad adventures

    Folie a deux
    Depends how equal the relationship and income is i guess!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,240

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    It is of course the early exit fee that is expensive. If someone's temperament is not suited to spending a lifetime or at least 20+ years together then it is indeed more expensive than being single. For those with a lifetime match it is cheaper. You are both correct.
    Not necessarily. My first wife could have taken me to the cleaners but didn't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297
    edited July 1

    Leon said:

    Insert your own joke about Johnson having a hairdresser:

    I'd be really careful about dropping stuff like that on to PB, unmediated. Potentially, that is grossly libellous
    All sorts of weird and wonderful rumours fly about the Westminster village. I was once told - by someone who was genuinely well involved in the Tory/Westminster scene - that when Jeffery Archer was caught trying to hire a prostitute he was actually doing so on behalf of Denis Thatcher. Obvious poppycock, of course, but it was a story doing the rounds.
    Sounds like something Archer might well have made up.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,520

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    Perhaps that an exception can be so easily found shows your initial argument was slightly flawed? ;)

    I just looked at the list of 109 Tory MPs elected for the first time in 2019, and picked a name I did not know. What is 'most extreme' about this guy?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Evans_(politician)

    If anything, many of the latest intake on all sides seem rather anodyne. Few have made much of an impression on the public yet.
    Bear in mind, there's probaly 600 or so MPs no one's heard of.

    We only know of them when they do something dodgy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    It's led by Johnson ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,185
    FPT -
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    You need to meet the right woman.

    It has to be someone who understands you, brings out the best in you, who you deeply respect, and loves you unconditionally.

    They do exist. But you do need to ditch the casual sex in return.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,760
    edited July 1
    Andy_JS said:

    Tamworth of course was pretty much capital of the country about 1,200 years ago. It was capital of Mercia when Mercia was the most powerful kingdom in England.

    I first heard of it because of Butch and Sundance, the Tamworth Two.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamworth_Two
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT and on topic:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s something of a double standard here. Would Pincher have kept the whip if he tried to grope two women ?

    That is a very good point. A gay sexual assault is quite as bad as one by a man on a woman.

    Frankly, appointing someone with his record was stupid. And keeping him as a Tory MP despite what he has admitted is even more stupid.

    But this is a government run by a man who had blow jobs in his office from his mistress.

    So the standard of probity expected of Tory MPs seems to be no more than that they should be alive.
    Do you actually care about blow jobs in the office from his mistress?

    The boss by his behaviour sends out the message to everyone below that it's OK to behave just how you like; that's the way that it matters.
    So what?

    I couldn't care less about blow jobs in the office, if the door and window is closed, what consenting adults do between them is none of anybody else's business.

    In the past three decades the best President of the United States of America is infamous for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. I'd still rather have him at his prime as POTUS now than Biden or even Obama, let alone Dubya or worse.

    Who would you rather have as POTUS - Bill Clinton who had blowjobs from his mistress in the Oval Office, or Dubya Bush whom that has never been alleged against?
    You are rather missing the point.

    I am pointing out that if that is how the PM behaves he is hardly in a good position to demand or expect higher standards for his subordinates.

    Do I care personally? No - in the sense that the PM is a complete stranger so his personal sexual morals do not affect me.

    Do I care that the Foreign Secretary thought it appropriate to have sex in his office with his mistress during work hours? Yes - it is completely unprofessional. Were there any evidence of him being good at his job there would be something weighty to put in the balance. But there wasn't, was there?

    And that complete disregard for rules, standards, for a sense of professionalism, of decorum or dignity was not a one off: it has shown itself time and time again, of which Partygate is the latest example.

    People having affairs happens. Marriages fail. But it is possible to be discreet - and have some respect for the dignity of the office you hold. It is not necessary for Tory party MPs to behave as if they were in a competition to see who most resembles a rutting chimp.

    Leadership is, in part, about setting a good example. That is why Partygate has been so damaging. There is a problem with sexual misconduct among MPs. If this is to be dealt with then we need leaders who do not turn a blind eye to it by appointing to senior positions MPs with a history of such bad behaviour and despite warning about their conduct. Trying to enforce such standards is going to be a good deal more difficult if you yourself behave in an undignified way. The issue is not the PM's unfaithfulness but the fact that he could not see the utter wrongness of having sex with his mistress in the office rather than waiting until they were at home or in a hotel.
    I'm sorry but I totally and utterly disagree. Having consensual sexual relations with another adult is not "sexual misconduct" no matter how "deviant" other people consider that consensual behaviour to be.

    What Pincher, Grady, Hill etc have been alleged to be involved in is non-consensual sexual behaviour.

    The line between consensual and non-consensual behaviour should never be blurred.
    Its sexual misconduct *in public office*. The affair is not the issue - had Johnson been receiving a blowjob from his wife in his FCO office that would also have been sexual misconduct.
    Why?

    If its behind closed doors, then I don't think it is. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is up to them.
    At work? Give over.
    Yes, people have sex at work sometimes. If shows like Grey's Anatomy are to be believed, that's half of what people do.

    If you're doing it in the open, then that would be misconduct. If you're doing it behind closed doors then I don't see any difference between that and playing Candy Crush at work, or writing on obscure political blogs while at work.
    Eugh, the only people who should be having sex at work are sex workers.
    I've never had a proper job, but from what I understand sex at work is quite a thrill. There's certainly lots of porn devoted to it, presumably because it takes a boring place where sex is not meant to happen - an office - and makes it happen. It breaks a taboo, excitingly

    I have had sex with girls at their place of work, quite a few times. A doctor in a hospital, a nurse at St Barts, a student actress backstage, a TV presenter in the dressing room, I once got my girlfriend to do her A Level revision topless (true story). Does that count?


    OK, OK, I'll go to the dry cleaners, pfff
    You're really not getting very much at the moment, are you?
    Starvation rations, mate, starvation rations

    But not actually STARVING
    Doesn't Tinder (or equivalent) work for meeting women in Montenegro as well?

    I'm assuming you're single again..so why not try meeting someone?
    Thanks (sincerely) for your concern, but I am fine!

    I'm rather enjoying being single and moderately but not entirely celibate. It's a calm moment in my life after several years of extreme turbulence. I have the odd liaison, which keeps me going, otherwise I am floating around the world, eating seabass and observing, and it is indeed pleasant. I chat with my kids, I tipple wine at sundown, I read about Balkan bandits

    I'm honestly not sure I want another full on marriage-type relationship - ever. They can be fun but they are also stressful. And bloody expensive
    Sounds like you are in a happy calm place. But surely marriage kind of relationships are anything but expensive? You get to share the accommodation costs two ways, it's cheaper to cook for two, you will stay in more of an evening... The whole thing basically pays for itself.
    It is of course the early exit fee that is expensive. If someone's temperament is not suited to spending a lifetime or at least 20+ years together then it is indeed more expensive than being single. For those with a lifetime match it is cheaper. You are both correct.
    Not necessarily. My first wife could have taken me to the cleaners but didn't.
    That is a funny old saying. Did dry cleaners really used to be so expensive?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,970

    "Another odd feature is that so far at least it is mostly confined to Tory MPs."

    Is this actually backed up by the evidence on a longer timescale?

    How long do you want to go? Surely it's what is happening in this parliament that is most relevant?
    A couple of parliaments, probably. For one thing, there are far more Conservative MPs than even Labour ones. Then there's new MPs coming in who have not been properly vetted (as much as you can vet) - remember Jared O'Mara ?

    I think there's a combination of issues here. As OGH says, there's the Westminster 'culture' which appears to be poor. Then there's the unusual nature of the job, which requires long periods away from home and family. There's the way MPs get to meet lots of people, often around drink. Also the fact that most people becoming MPs have to be fairly ambitious. And the fact the governing party gets more attention.

    For instance, how about the SNP's Patrick Grady? Labour's Liam Byrne (albeit for bullying)?

    I'd also like to comment again what an odious little creature Tom Watson was.
    Also, a disproportionate number of MP's are pig ugly, and would find it hard to get sex in any other walk of life.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    Carnyx said:

    Mike said: "WHAT IS IT ABOUT JOHNSON’S TORY PARTY AT THE MOMENT?"

    Well, there is an old saying that Labour MPs are brought down by money, Tories are brought down by sex.

    But with this govt you need to factor in that only the most extreme types were selected. Many of the more level-headed types were either sidelined, stood down or left. Their replacements seem to come from the UKIP-lite brigade of closet nutters and, judging from recent events, I suspect that many think that laws and rules are for other people and not for them.

    "only the most extreme types were selected."

    Aaron Bell was hardly 'the most extreme type'
    Extremely well connected to the PB.com community.

    See what I mean? :D I had forgotten that when posting on PedanticBetting.com there are no
    exceptions allowed unless you write them into the post. Absolutes with everything :open_mouth:
    We are of the most extreme type.
    Imagine if any of us were academics in the field of pol and econ - we could get our draft papers pre-refereed for free on this site, work-hardened so that they are armour-plated for the actual journal submission. Neither even the least typo nor the minutest grammatical solecism is left unpunished.
    You'd never get it published. Referees would object to bad puns in every other sentence, and there'd be two pages of footnotes arguing the Prime Minister's first name.
    And whilst the first few pages would be fully on-topic and well researched, the rest would invariably divert onto the topics of trains, holiday food or Leon's sex life.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    Javier Blas
    @JavierBlas
    ·
    4h
    In the middle of the summer, when we should be saving as much natural gas as possible for winter, European nations are burning lots of gas for electricity generation.

    The UK is now generating >60% of its electricity output burning gas. We will come to regret it this winter.

    https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1542759108914323456

    The prospect of Energy rationing is being mentioned more and more in the papers. Proper tory Frosty thinks its inevitable.

    Whichever government presides over energy rationing.....boy, will they regret that.
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