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The 2022 English local elections – the final scorecard – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 15 in General
imageThe 2022 English local elections – the final scorecard – politicalbetting.com

Above from BBC News are the final totals from last Thursday’s local elections. As can be seen the Tories lost the most councillors but the LDs not the official opposition got the most seats.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,658
    First.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    Beijing loyalists have anointed an ex-security chief who oversaw the crackdown on Hong Kong's democracy movement as the region's new leader.

    John Lee, 64, was the only candidate in the Beijing-backed race to succeed outgoing leader Carrie Lam.

    The elevation of Lee, who is currently subject to US sanctions, places a security official in the top job for the first time amid a tumultuous few years for a city battered by political unrest and debilitating pandemic controls.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361
    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,443
    Election in northern Germany today, in Schleswig-Holstein.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germanys-conservatives-lead-first-exit-poll-schleswig-holstein-state-2022-05-08/

    "Former Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives (CDU) looked set to make a clear win a regional election in the northern state of Schleswig-Holstein on Sunday, in a boost to the party which was ousted from national government in federal elections last year.

    An exit poll by ARD Tagesschau put the CDU at 43% of the vote, up 11 percentage points compared to the last vote, while the Social Democrats slumped to 15.5%.

    The environmental Greens and the pro-business FDP parties, who have been in a coalition with the conservatives since 2017 scored 17% and 7% respectively."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    Kyle Walker, Ruben Dias and John Stones will miss the remainder of the season through injury, Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola has confirmed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 44,490
    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 2,424
    It feels very hung parliament like. The government are disliked but the alternative isn't appealing either.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Is Starmer the problem? Seems to be the message from Red Wall focus groups.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 8
    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    The danger for the Tories is not been unliked, it is been seen as so incompoment that people go what the hell, give the other lot a go, regardless of being unconvinced.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 7,967

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,363
    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    Whichever party gets a plausible new leader first, wins?

    We are definitely in Plague-on-both-your-houses territory

    It might also be good for the country if they both go. They are both associated with the opposing extremes of the Brexit referendum. Boris is the Leave-leading Boris of the “lying” NHS Leave bus, Starmer is an outright Remoaner who wanted a 2nd vote. We cannot heal as a country - and we need to heal - while either of them is PM or LOTO
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,636

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,286

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn't it depend what was going on at the time of the base figure. If it's from the 2019 General Election then it's disappointing. If its from the hung parliament time around 2018 then it doesn't look too bad. The only thing that's clear is that it's a shocking result for the Tories
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,104

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,286

    Kyle Walker, Ruben Dias and John Stones will miss the remainder of the season through injury, Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola has confirmed.

    You can get 11/2 on Liverpool. I've done well betting against City this season. The odds on them losing are usually enormous and they don't often draw games.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,636

    Beijing loyalists have anointed an ex-security chief who oversaw the crackdown on Hong Kong's democracy movement as the region's new leader.

    John Lee, 64, was the only candidate in the Beijing-backed race to succeed outgoing leader Carrie Lam.

    The elevation of Lee, who is currently subject to US sanctions, places a security official in the top job for the first time amid a tumultuous few years for a city battered by political unrest and debilitating pandemic controls.

    Anointed? Only candidate?

    A hypothetical "Chinese PB.com" must be thoroughly boring! :lol:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?

    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A
    Amazing result. Hope it was kosher otherwise the event is in trouble with last year's Bob Baffert winner being disqualified for doping and just the other day dying in a mysterious training accident.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939

    Beijing loyalists have anointed an ex-security chief who oversaw the crackdown on Hong Kong's democracy movement as the region's new leader.

    John Lee, 64, was the only candidate in the Beijing-backed race to succeed outgoing leader Carrie Lam.

    The elevation of Lee, who is currently subject to US sanctions, places a security official in the top job for the first time amid a tumultuous few years for a city battered by political unrest and debilitating pandemic controls.

    Anointed? Only candidate?

    A hypothetical "Chinese PB.com" must be thoroughly boring! :lol:
    There would be some interest in working out which posts would get the posters shot...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 7,967
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,874

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    I think the Rallings & Thrasher nev is:

    Lab 35
    Con 33
    LD 17 or 18
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    Whichever party gets a plausible new leader first, wins?

    We are definitely in Plague-on-both-your-houses territory

    It might also be good for the country if they both go. They are both associated with the opposing extremes of the Brexit referendum. Boris is the Leave-leading Boris of the “lying” NHS Leave bus, Starmer is an outright Remoaner who wanted a 2nd vote. We cannot heal as a country - and we need to heal - while either of them is PM or LOTO
    You'll be doing your bit on the healing then, will you?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,286
    The first Andrew Neal prog starting now. Sounds interesting. We're going to Hell in a handcart in the next few years. Must be Brexit.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,874
    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361
    Was Jess Phillips at Durham for Currygate? Just asking.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    Agree, it would be terrible.

    However - and to be slightly controversial here - Rahman's actions would be considered normal political practices in the cultures from which many of the Aspire voters come from. It needs a better message to counteract than "he's a crook"
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    making a point this year to watch as many UK based films as possible at the cinema to support UK film,cinema and well just because they are more intelligent that your Hollywood stuff in the main.

    Saw Downton Abbey today after watching recently
    Operation Mincemeat
    Death on the Nile
    Phantom of the Open
    The Duke

    Liked them all really but Downton Abbey surprised me with its mix of humour, taking the mick out of itself in parts (it has become a caricature of itself ) , intelligence and emotion . It is very stylish as always
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 7,967
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,636
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    Agree, it would be terrible.

    However - and to be slightly controversial here - Rahman's actions would be considered normal political practices in the cultures from which many of the Aspire voters come from. It needs a better message to counteract than "he's a crook"
    Is you referring to the Subcontinent by any chance? :lol:

    https://www.ft.com/content/9405ad3a-4719-43a0-953a-0d2323211476

    "Indian politicians brush off crime accusations in world’s largest democracy
    Rise of candidates facing serious charges including kidnap and murder alarms observers"
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 13,878
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    Agree, it would be terrible.

    However - and to be slightly controversial here - Rahman's actions would be considered normal political practices in the cultures from which many of the Aspire voters come from. It needs a better message to counteract than "he's a crook"
    Are you suggesting they might be Trumpians?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 2,424
    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    The stuff of dreams, legends, and a commentator who failed to notice the winner until just before the line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518

    making a point this year to watch as many UK based films as possible at the cinema to support UK film,cinema and well just because they are more intelligent that your Hollywood stuff in the main.

    Saw Downton Abbey today after watching recently
    Operation Mincemeat
    Death on the Nile
    Phantom of the Open
    The Duke

    Liked them all really but Downton Abbey surprised me with its mix of humour, taking the mick out of itself in parts (it has become a caricature of itself ) , intelligence and emotion . It is very stylish as always

    I've seen the top three, all were decent. I liked Downton Abbey the best, but that's probably as a fan, it was like they had a checklist to tie up every loose end.

    I confess the trailers for The Duke didn't really sell me on the film. It looked very very British.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Is that a parody post? Starmer is heading for the exit door.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    edited May 8
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    Agree, it would be terrible.

    However - and to be slightly controversial here - Rahman's actions would be considered normal political practices in the cultures from which many of the Aspire voters come from. It needs a better message to counteract than "he's a crook"
    Perhaps, but it should also be restated at every opportunity that he is one, particularly since he maintains he did nothing wrong (if he did, I'd not be as worried by his reentering public life), and he cannot credibly complain about the label.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    kle4 said:

    making a point this year to watch as many UK based films as possible at the cinema to support UK film,cinema and well just because they are more intelligent that your Hollywood stuff in the main.

    Saw Downton Abbey today after watching recently
    Operation Mincemeat
    Death on the Nile
    Phantom of the Open
    The Duke

    Liked them all really but Downton Abbey surprised me with its mix of humour, taking the mick out of itself in parts (it has become a caricature of itself ) , intelligence and emotion . It is very stylish as always

    I've seen the top three, all were decent. I liked Downton Abbey the best, but that's probably as a fan, it was like they had a checklist to tie up every loose end.

    I confess the trailers for The Duke didn't really sell me on the film. It looked very very British.
    the Duke was far better than the trailers . It was deeper than I thought it would be (as was Phantom of the Open) and The Duke even had a twist that was completely un-signposted until it happened
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,659

    Was Jess Phillips at Durham for Currygate? Just asking.

    Hopefully
  • glwglw Posts: 8,268

    Beijing loyalists have anointed an ex-security chief who oversaw the crackdown on Hong Kong's democracy movement as the region's new leader.

    John Lee, 64, was the only candidate in the Beijing-backed race to succeed outgoing leader Carrie Lam.

    The elevation of Lee, who is currently subject to US sanctions, places a security official in the top job for the first time amid a tumultuous few years for a city battered by political unrest and debilitating pandemic controls.

    Anointed? Only candidate?

    A hypothetical "Chinese PB.com" must be thoroughly boring! :lol:
    XIGIGSCCP&CCMC&PPRC needs some work.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    edited May 8

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
    There wasn't lots of dead wood in the Russian Army. It had been rebuilt pretty much from scratch for the Civil War. In fact, it contained many of the most forward thinking generals of their generation, the likes of Tukhachevsky and Yakir who were early exponents of tank warfare. Without them, the Russians looked inept in the Winter War and almost collapsed without a fight against Barbarossa. Officers were so frightened of being shot if they got things wrong they never gave their units orders to fire.

    Do not confuse it with long established militaries, like say, ours or the US one where a bunch of 'old X's boys' get promoted due to their connections. Yes, connections were important, but you had to actually be good to make them.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 2,424
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
    No, but the Tories still have a majority over 70, so the first and third Principles are met - so it would just come down to an assessment on the second one. And it's certainly arguable in the current circumstances that fucking around with an unnecessary general election because the LOTO and his deputy had imploded would trigger that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Probably right. But that came with who they chose to lead them. Part of the deal. You can't have Boris Johnson AND retain your dignity. This goes for the Tories and also for the country.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
    On the theory that American ww2 generals were successful because, if they were stuck, they'd be rotated out to another theatre (unless I've found the wrong lecture)

    Why our Generals Were More Successful in World War II
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OehvY94N-WA
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361

    Was Jess Phillips at Durham for Currygate? Just asking.

    Hopefully
    Haha! Leaving... who to take over?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    Agree, it would be terrible.

    However - and to be slightly controversial here - Rahman's actions would be considered normal political practices in the cultures from which many of the Aspire voters come from. It needs a better message to counteract than "he's a crook"
    Are you suggesting they might be Trumpians?
    Not that corrupt surely?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,659

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579

    Was Jess Phillips at Durham for Currygate? Just asking.

    Hopefully
    Are you hellbent on Conservative Governments in perpetuity BJO? What two bit loser do you have in mind to lead Labour into oblivion? Remember Andy Burnham is UNAVAILABLE!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467
    ydoethur said:

    Beijing loyalists have anointed an ex-security chief who oversaw the crackdown on Hong Kong's democracy movement as the region's new leader.

    John Lee, 64, was the only candidate in the Beijing-backed race to succeed outgoing leader Carrie Lam.

    The elevation of Lee, who is currently subject to US sanctions, places a security official in the top job for the first time amid a tumultuous few years for a city battered by political unrest and debilitating pandemic controls.

    Anointed? Only candidate?

    A hypothetical "Chinese PB.com" must be thoroughly boring! :lol:
    There would be some interest in working out which posts would get the posters shot...
    How do the feel about Radiohead or Pineapple as a pizza topping? Thats what we need to know.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Is that a parody post? Starmer is heading for the exit door.
    Betting opp for punters who think this. 4s available.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    The stuff of dreams, legends, and a commentator who failed to notice the winner until just before the line.
    Hardly surprising really as the winner was about 10th until just before the line
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    edited May 8
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:



    From the Times, which is all UK and slightly different to the BBC. The NEV is horrible for Labour and the England only seat gains are similar to the BBC numbers.

    Honestly that NEV should be the cause of very loud alarm bells at Labour HQ, 35-33 is shocking at this stage. A 2 point lead is nothing, it reinforces my view that the Tories are on course for a slim majority even if they keep Boris.

    2 point lead against basically Duck House flipping in a recession meets Profumo, Jonathan Aitken and Archer is lamentable
    How crap are labour?!
    Lutfur Rahman owned them and dhowed everyone how to do it. Just offer anything at all program of government wise and their support disintegrares
    I really don't think the Lutfur Rahman model is one anyone would want expanded. Bad enough it's contain within Tower Hamlets.
    It was wildly popular with the Electorate there and, as such, is a template for parts of inner London. It being from such a person is irrelevant as is not wanting it repeated or to work- it will be and it does. As this country grows and diversifies, the old goods on offer are insufficient. Aspire is what the future of inner London may look like. Labour need to recognize and counter that as merely bemoaning it will see them overwhelmed. Scotland 2010 to 2015 outcomes beckons always for the coalition of the not Tories.
    How is it coming from a complete crook irrelevant? Scum like him and any group he leads should be opposed by all other people in political life, and any attempt to mirror the methods elsewhere uniformly opposed - it's nothing to do with the country 'diversifying' unless you think crooks are a natural followup to diversification.
    It's irrelevant to the facts on the ground. What he has done has worked. I said labour need to counter it, that means offering something to attract back voters. Stamping their feet and saying 'bad man' as they lose seats won't cut it. As the law stands he is now as entitled to run for office or lead a party as anyone. That might leave a sour taste in the mouth but it is what it is and complaining about it as a tactic will just drive further support to him as he plays the anti establishment outsider and portrays himself as a victim of casual racist tropes. I'm not suggesting anyone repeat the template that saw him prosecuted and banned for 5 years, but look at what he has offered the people of TH this time around that has made them flock to his banner.
    And I'm sorry but diversification means there will be more required in some areas than generic party offers.
    You counter all of this by giving something positive to vote for, nationally and then tailored locally as the circumstances dictate, not by saying 'well people like him shouldn't even be allowed in the game ' cos he is, like it or not.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Off topic

    A very poor "set" of elections? Wales and Scotland don't count then.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    It wasn’t just him. I posted at 05:30 the morning after, when I woke up and saw the England scoreboard. I said I was shocked by how poorly Labour were doing. Several posters told me off for talking nonsense, including Heathener. Turns out I was bang on the mark.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,806
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
    There wasn't lots of dead wood in the Russian Army. It had been rebuilt pretty much from scratch for the Civil War. In fact, it contained many of the most forward thinking generals of their generation, the likes of Tukhachevsky and Yakir who were early exponents of tank warfare. Without them, the Russians looked inept in the Winter War and almost collapsed without a fight against Barbarossa. Officers were so frightened of being shot if they got things wrong they never gave their units orders to fire.

    Do not confuse it with long established militaries, like say, ours or the US one where a bunch of 'old X's boys' get promoted due to their connections. Yes, connections were important, but you had to actually be good to make them.
    Tukhachevsky was a scumbag - but one with a brain.

    The problem was that he, and the other exponents of combined are warfare, were a bit too clever for Stalin. In DictatorWorld, being cleverer than the boss = the chop.

    So, while the tank designers kept on working away, the doctrine remained that tanks were infantry support vehicles rather than an arm in their own right. And the Red Army kept it's cavalry...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Off topic

    A very poor "set" of elections? Wales and Scotland don't count then.
    Wales was good. Scotland was a big disappointment.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,874
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Probably right. But that came with who they chose to lead them. Part of the deal. You can't have Boris Johnson AND retain your dignity. This goes for the Tories and also for the country.
    As someone who tries to learn from mistakes the refusal of Boris to do so is the most aggravating thing about him.

    Its not that he isn't capable - Nick Palmer told a good anecdote of how Boris can research details when he wants to.

    But its not just Boris - there's been too much immaturity, sleaze and general slackness in the government and the Conservative party overall.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,636

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
    There wasn't lots of dead wood in the Russian Army. It had been rebuilt pretty much from scratch for the Civil War. In fact, it contained many of the most forward thinking generals of their generation, the likes of Tukhachevsky and Yakir who were early exponents of tank warfare. Without them, the Russians looked inept in the Winter War and almost collapsed without a fight against Barbarossa. Officers were so frightened of being shot if they got things wrong they never gave their units orders to fire.

    Do not confuse it with long established militaries, like say, ours or the US one where a bunch of 'old X's boys' get promoted due to their connections. Yes, connections were important, but you had to actually be good to make them.
    Tukhachevsky was a scumbag - but one with a brain.

    The problem was that he, and the other exponents of combined are warfare, were a bit too clever for Stalin. In DictatorWorld, being cleverer than the boss = the chop.

    So, while the tank designers kept on working away, the doctrine remained that tanks were infantry support vehicles rather than an arm in their own right. And the Red Army kept it's cavalry...
    If you can name a leading Bolshevik who wasn't a scumbag...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,806
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    Thanks for posting. Actually makes me think win was legit, but again, I am Sergeant Schultz - I know nothing!
    FPT It's a short talk - a byway into Stalin's tactics 1929 - 1932 may be a little too much, even for my eloquence, let alone the audience!

    When I am PB PM OTOH .....
    Was just reading eye-witness account by Fitzroy MacLean in "Eastern Approaches" of purge trial in 1938 featuring Nikolai Bukharin. Who despite pleading guilty - for his own ideological imperative - gave even better than he got, in the courtroom anyway.

    Still open question whether Stalin's massive late-30s purges of party, army, security, you name it, were a plus or minus to Soviets in the impending Great Patriotic War.
    No it isn't. There is no way they were a positive. Even Soviet historians gave up pretending otherwise.
    That's my view in general.

    But it's a fact that when he took charge as US Army Chief of Staff in 1940, Gen. George Marshall - himself advanced over scores of superior officers by FDR - had to rid the higher ranks of deadwood accumulated as result of WW1 seniority.

    Also a fact - again speaking of generals - that Stalin secured the WW2 services of Gen. Konstantin Rokossovsky by having the foresight NOT to execute him, but instead sending him to the Gulag in Siberia, where he was located, freed and put to work helping the Red Army hold and roll back the Germans.
    There wasn't lots of dead wood in the Russian Army. It had been rebuilt pretty much from scratch for the Civil War. In fact, it contained many of the most forward thinking generals of their generation, the likes of Tukhachevsky and Yakir who were early exponents of tank warfare. Without them, the Russians looked inept in the Winter War and almost collapsed without a fight against Barbarossa. Officers were so frightened of being shot if they got things wrong they never gave their units orders to fire.

    Do not confuse it with long established militaries, like say, ours or the US one where a bunch of 'old X's boys' get promoted due to their connections. Yes, connections were important, but you had to actually be good to make them.
    Tukhachevsky was a scumbag - but one with a brain.

    The problem was that he, and the other exponents of combined are warfare, were a bit too clever for Stalin. In DictatorWorld, being cleverer than the boss = the chop.

    So, while the tank designers kept on working away, the doctrine remained that tanks were infantry support vehicles rather than an arm in their own right. And the Red Army kept it's cavalry...
    If you can name a leading Bolshevik who wasn't a scumbag...
    True.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    It wasn’t just him. I posted at 05:30 the morning after, when I woke up and saw the England scoreboard. I said I was shocked by how poorly Labour were doing. Several posters told me off for talking nonsense, including Heathener. Turns out I was bang on the mark.
    In my opinion, these results just aren't good enough for Labour and they are hopefully conducting an internal review on the quiet as to where they go next. After 12 years of Tory administrations with a economic storm hitting and now unpopular PM, Labour should be making leaps and bounds.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    edited May 8
    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
    No, but the Tories still have a majority over 70, so the first and third Principles are met - so it would just come down to an assessment on the second one. And it's certainly arguable in the current circumstances that fucking around with an unnecessary general election because the LOTO and his deputy had imploded would trigger that.
    Butd arguably any general election is unnecessary till it comes to the time limit (however defined). It's well accepted that PMs try to game the system by picking their time (the FPA excepted obvs)..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Is that a parody post? Starmer is heading for the exit door.
    Betting opp for punters who think this. 4s available.
    I'm on already.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    The stuff of dreams, legends, and a commentator who failed to notice the winner until just before the line.
    Hardly surprising really as the winner was about 10th until just before the line
    Yes, and the corollary was that Rich Strike was making ground hand over fist, unnoticed by the commentator who was concentrating on the favourite.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    It wasn’t just him. I posted at 05:30 the morning after, when I woke up and saw the England scoreboard. I said I was shocked by how poorly Labour were doing. Several posters told me off for talking nonsense, including Heathener. Turns out I was bang on the mark.
    What you mean Heathener was actually wrong? Surely not?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,466

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    It wasn’t just him. I posted at 05:30 the morning after, when I woke up and saw the England scoreboard. I said I was shocked by how poorly Labour were doing. Several posters told me off for talking nonsense, including Heathener. Turns out I was bang on the mark.
    What you mean Heathener was actually wrong? Surely not?
    And weirdly government wasn’t planning autumn lockdowns in 2021 either.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    It wasn’t just him. I posted at 05:30 the morning after, when I woke up and saw the England scoreboard. I said I was shocked by how poorly Labour were doing. Several posters told me off for talking nonsense, including Heathener. Turns out I was bang on the mark.
    Even in London, it was basically a score draw but it won't stop people saying London is a Labour city.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,659
    edited May 8

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
    In 2018
    Lab 2353
    LD 542

    MORE THAN 4 TIMES
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    The stuff of dreams, legends, and a commentator who failed to notice the winner until just before the line.
    That was hilarious. Reminded me of when Donovan Bailey won the Olympic 100m.

    "And Greene going well, so's Ato Bolden, Greene pumping now, Bolden coming back at him, looking strong, Greene, Bolden, two of them locked, Greene, Greene, Bolden ... BAILEY!"
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 2,424
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
    No, but the Tories still have a majority over 70, so the first and third Principles are met - so it would just come down to an assessment on the second one. And it's certainly arguable in the current circumstances that fucking around with an unnecessary general election because the LOTO and his deputy had imploded would trigger that.
    Butd arguably any general election is unnecessary till it comes to the time limit (however defined). It's well accepted that PMs try to game the system by picking their time (the FPA excepted obvs)..
    That's true, but there's a big difference between having an election one year early and having one two and a half years early.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,874
    Contrast with 2012:

    Lab 38%
    Con 31%
    LD 16%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    EICIPM
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
    No, but the Tories still have a majority over 70, so the first and third Principles are met - so it would just come down to an assessment on the second one. And it's certainly arguable in the current circumstances that fucking around with an unnecessary general election because the LOTO and his deputy had imploded would trigger that.
    Very much doubt the Queen would make the judgment that the economic situation was so bad an election should not be granted.

    Anyway the 3rd test doesn't pass. If Johnson wants an early election who is the Queen to call to form a government without him unless enough of his party also don't want an early election and are prepared to indicate that ANother from the Cabinet would have their support?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    kinabalu said:

    FPT:

    Betting Question - How many PBer are wondering today, was the 2022 Kentucky Derby entirely kosher?

    Know I am. But then, what do I know?


    Come on, where's your sense of romance? That was the stuff of dreams, of legends:

    https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/1523104042427334660?s=20&t=kml_1oY8uGBJAYXC9Fe8_A

    The stuff of dreams, legends, and a commentator who failed to notice the winner until just before the line.
    That was hilarious. Reminded me of when Donovan Bailey won the Olympic 100m.

    "And Greene going well, so's Ato Bolden, Greene pumping now, Bolden coming back at him, looking strong, Greene, Bolden, two of them locked, Greene, Greene, Bolden ... BAILEY!"
    Or when Paul Lawrie won the open and never featured in the final day coverage until the play off
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    edited May 8

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Off topic

    A very poor "set" of elections? Wales and Scotland don't count then.
    Wales was good. Scotland was a big disappointment.
    Yes, Scotland is skewed by the results being against the everyone loves Ruth era. Overall they are marginally second, a very slight improvement from the Holyrood election and a small move ahead of the Tories who even in 'disaster' managed 20% but they and the Tories are fishing in different ponds mainly- Labour in Central and Dunbartonshire, the West and Glasgow. Cons in Borders, Dumfries, Perthshire and Aberdeenshire with their only direct clashes likely to be possible three way fights in Ayrshire next time out
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,659

    Contrast with 2012:

    Lab 38%
    Con 31%
    LD 16%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    EICIPM

    Nailed on
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,061

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
    But it has to be recognised that the areas with elections this year were very favourable to Labour, Mr Prasannan, so it is not surprising they ended up holding most seats. And they did lose control of Hull as well.....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,659

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Off topic

    A very poor "set" of elections? Wales and Scotland don't count then.
    Not for Starmer no

    Wales in particular ran a Welsh Labour campaign distanced from the National Party

    As you must know surely
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,698
    My take. England
    LD's. Big winners. I was more bullish on them than most, but I underestimated it. They are back as a serious force in certain counties.
    Greens did damn well. Also in specific places.
    Labour. Meh. SKS just isn't very good at politics. Be careful what Tories wish for. He hasn't cut through, and there is no chance of a Corbynite replacement.
    Tories was an off the scale disaster. They are facing an electoral pincer movement of tactical voting. I expected 200 losses UK wide. They've far exceeded that in England alone.
    Scotland.
    A bit meh all round really. Labour coming second is of symbolic importance mind. LD's did well.
    Wales.
    A super result for Llafur. Tories have chucked away a decade of hard graft. Dismal.
    NI.
    Could have been much worse
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748

    It’s interesting. The Corbyn cult thinks Starmer being investigated is great, that better results than St Jeremy which they called fantastic are poor and that Johnson should be PM.

    Almost like they’re not really Labour at all

    They would rather there were tory governments for decades without interruption than have a labour leader who does not pass their weird Marxist purity tests win.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,806

    It’s interesting. The Corbyn cult thinks Starmer being investigated is great, that better results than St Jeremy which they called fantastic are poor and that Johnson should be PM.

    Almost like they’re not really Labour at all

    They would rather there were tory governments for decades without interruption than have a labour leader who does not pass their weird Marxist purity tests win.

    Yes - they live in a world where everyone else is a Tory. And Starmer is a Tory Traitor which is Tory Squared.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 504

    It’s interesting. The Corbyn cult thinks Starmer being investigated is great, that better results than St Jeremy which they called fantastic are poor and that Johnson should be PM.

    Almost like they’re not really Labour at all

    They think if Starmer goes they'll get control of the party again.
    Unfortunately, they don't seem to have realised because of the changes to the leadership election rules they won't be able to get a candidate on the ballot.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,423

    It’s interesting. The Corbyn cult thinks Starmer being investigated is great, that better results than St Jeremy which they called fantastic are poor and that Johnson should be PM.

    Almost like they’re not really Labour at all

    Particularly pathetic given Corbyn didn't demonstrate strong adherence to the rules.

    I'm just a bit depressed about Labour, tbh. Rubbish in most of England, no real breakthrough here in Scotland.

    The Lib Dem gains aren't going to translate to the 50 - 60 seats that would cause a significant change to the arithmetic in the absence of a Labour revival in Scotland/red wall.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/1523058171488907265

    Surely Keir will have to sue over this. They’re literally libelling him
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,443
    edited May 8
    Rallings and Thrasher have the projected national share at Lab 35%, Con 33%.

    Westminster and Wandsworth accounted for about 95% of Labour's net council gains in England. 21 in those two boroughs and 22 in England.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    ClippP said:

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
    But it has to be recognised that the areas with elections this year were very favourable to Labour, Mr Prasannan, so it is not surprising they ended up holding most seats. And they did lose control of Hull as well.....
    And Harrow, Croydon, Newcastle under Lyme..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    dixiedean said:

    My take. England
    LD's. Big winners. I was more bullish on them than most, but I underestimated it. They are back as a serious force in certain counties.
    Greens did damn well. Also in specific places.
    Labour. Meh. SKS just isn't very good at politics. Be careful what Tories wish for. He hasn't cut through, and there is no chance of a Corbynite replacement.
    Tories was an off the scale disaster. They are facing an electoral pincer movement of tactical voting. I expected 200 losses UK wide. They've far exceeded that in England alone.
    Scotland.
    A bit meh all round really. Labour coming second is of symbolic importance mind. LD's did well.
    Wales.
    A super result for Llafur. Tories have chucked away a decade of hard graft. Dismal.
    NI.
    Could have been much worse

    "Labour. Meh. SKS just isn't very good at politics. Be careful what Tories wish for. He hasn't cut through, and there is no chance of a Corbynite replacement."

    Johnson to launch Operation Save Islington Lawyer tomorrow?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,361
    edited May 8

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Taz said:

    So all the seats are finally counted in England

    192 Gains LDs - excellent job

    63 Gains Greens - excellent work from a low base

    27 Gains Independents decent performance

    22 Gains Labour - pathetic performance for the main opposition party SKS must go

    You may be about to get your wish. Both the removal of Starmer and the re-election of Johnson who surely would go straight for an election.
    Risky strategy unless ahead in the Polls
    Sure. But its downhill all the way from here. The economy is shagged and getting worse, and they have no ideas how to fix it, and they don't care about peons anyway. So if Starmer and Rayner both say "I resign" isn't that the obvious time to spin the dice?

    "I'm calling an election". Who is representing Labour? On what platform? Its something that no respectable politician of any party has done, but happily Johnson and his fans have no respect or morals to worry about.

    I'm serious. If Starmer and Rayner quit, its the perfect opportunity for that snap election people have been musing about.
    I’m still in the nothing to see with this story camp but in that case who would lead the party into an election. Would the PLP elect a leader.

    The economy is in a mess and it is a global problem but this, lot don’t have a clue about mitigating it. They need to act quickly.
    I've been saying "nothing to see" since the start and the "revelations" still haven't added anything of substance. But - and its a big but - Starmer and Rayner having to quit is now a viable proposition. So for all the reasons you list were I an unprincipled cnut like Johnson that is exactly why I would call an election.
    I can't see HMQ granting a dissolution in such circumstances. The Lascelles Principles are still valid, aren't they?
    Have they ever been seen in practice, do we know? I doubt the monarch would ever refuse.
    Not in this country, but in other countries of which she is queen IIRC.

    I would think refusal unlikely in normal circumstances. But we're positing a situation where an unconventional PM tries to take advantage of the main opposition party being temporarily leaderless - this would surely be deemed "not cricket".
    But even deeming it not cricket would be Political, unlike for some reason her intervention in indyref 1, so it would go through ont he nod. .

    I cited the Principles on the previous thread. None of them refer to the LOTO being incapacitated.
    No, but the Tories still have a majority over 70, so the first and third Principles are met - so it would just come down to an assessment on the second one. And it's certainly arguable in the current circumstances that fucking around with an unnecessary general election because the LOTO and his deputy had imploded would trigger that.
    Very much doubt the Queen would make the judgment that the economic situation was so bad an election should not be granted.

    Anyway the 3rd test doesn't pass. If Johnson wants an early election who is the Queen to call to form a government without him unless enough of his party also don't want an early election and are prepared to indicate that ANother from the Cabinet would have their support?
    Surely following 12 years of Tory mismanagement, not having an election would detrimental to the economy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 28,267

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    It's interesting because on the PM head to heads and issues tracker the Tories are now behind Labour on almost everything.

    The Tories have suffered atrocious local election results but Labour's are also very poor.

    They are not convincing.

    Yes, very few Con -> Lab switchers and only a 2 point NEV lead now that all the results are in. There's no sugar coating it for either of the two parties. The voters don't like the Tories and they really hate Boris, but they also don't like Labour either and are wholly unconvinced by Starmer and now he's also likely to be tainted by a FPN.
    If the Conservatives hadn't wallowed in immaturity and sleaze this last year then they would have been comfortably ahead and Starmer would now be heading for the exit door.
    Is that a parody post? Starmer is heading for the exit door.
    Betting opp for punters who think this. 4s available.
    I'm on already.
    You lose, I think, but let's see. It would certainly be a rock in the pond.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    dixiedean said:

    My take. England
    LD's. Big winners. I was more bullish on them than most, but I underestimated it. They are back as a serious force in certain counties.
    Greens did damn well. Also in specific places.
    Labour. Meh. SKS just isn't very good at politics. Be careful what Tories wish for. He hasn't cut through, and there is no chance of a Corbynite replacement.
    Tories was an off the scale disaster. They are facing an electoral pincer movement of tactical voting. I expected 200 losses UK wide. They've far exceeded that in England alone.
    Scotland.
    A bit meh all round really. Labour coming second is of symbolic importance mind. LD's did well.
    Wales.
    A super result for Llafur. Tories have chucked away a decade of hard graft. Dismal.
    NI.
    Could have been much worse

    LDs need to be wary though. They were back as serious players under Swinson post Euro triumph 2019 and after Change UK blew it and became Twitter whiners. Then she got ideas of grandeur. Ed Davey will struggle to get airtime apart from a quick cheesy by election piece to camera with a load of grinning sandalistas holding lib dem diamonds and breaking a cardboard box blue wall with an orange magic lib dem hammer and the electorate will gradually forget his successes over the next 2 years. The extra feet on the ground with the gains will help but it's a long way back to anything over 20 seats I think. A first step but still in precarious territory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 8

    https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/1523058171488907265

    Surely Keir will have to sue over this. They’re literally libelling him

    What are you wittering about libelling him. Its absolute barrel scraping nonsense, but its no different to the ones we had about Boris not having his mask on all the time at the theatre etc.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471

    https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/1523058171488907265

    Surely Keir will have to sue over this. They’re literally libelling him

    What are you wittering about libelling him. Its absolute barrel scraping nonsense, but its no different to the ones we had about Boris not having his mask on all the time at the theatre etc.
    Johnson should sue too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Off topic

    A very poor "set" of elections? Wales and Scotland don't count then.
    Not for Starmer no

    Wales in particular ran a Welsh Labour campaign distanced from the National Party

    As you must know surely
    No it wasn't distanced from the leadership. Local issues were promoted here in the Vale. There was no embarrassment of the leader like the Conservative campaign, and there was no endorsement of the Government in Cardiff, they are not especially popular, particularly on the issue of the NHS.

    You can spin it all you like that I and thousands like me voted for Drakeford despite Starmer, but that is a lie.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471

    It’s interesting. The Corbyn cult thinks Starmer being investigated is great, that better results than St Jeremy which they called fantastic are poor and that Johnson should be PM.

    Almost like they’re not really Labour at all

    They think if Starmer goes they'll get control of the party again.
    Unfortunately, they don't seem to have realised because of the changes to the leadership election rules they won't be able to get a candidate on the ballot.
    And no MP will nominate one anyway.

    This will only be good for Labour. They’ll end up with Reeves or Streeting and go onto win.

    This is like Smith all over again
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 8

    https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/1523058171488907265

    Surely Keir will have to sue over this. They’re literally libelling him

    What are you wittering about libelling him. Its absolute barrel scraping nonsense, but its no different to the ones we had about Boris not having his mask on all the time at the theatre etc.
    Johnson should sue too.
    Why? Its non story, but how it is "libelling" them pointing out they didn't stick 100% to every rule, recommendation and request?

    It does back up what I said about Starmer playing the politics really badly. He played it as I am the law man, I never ever break the law. He could have easily covered his own arse for these sort of minor infractions as as he claimed at the time rules being very confusing, while still making a solid point about Boris actively encouraging this staff to ignore the rules.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 2,727
    felix said:

    ClippP said:

    Labour +22 is pathetic. I am surprised Liberals have not had more coverage of their big winning night.

    Doesn’t suit the narrative the big media players thought they were going to be reporting. They looked for a Labour triumph and therefore found one where none existed.
    CHB was posting excitedly for nearly 24 hrs amplifying the Lab are back message when it was always pretty obvious they were having a very poor set of Elections
    Labour ended up with more than double the number of seats the Tories got and more than THREE TIMES the number of LibDems!
    But it has to be recognised that the areas with elections this year were very favourable to Labour, Mr Prasannan, so it is not surprising they ended up holding most seats. And they did lose control of Hull as well.....
    And Harrow, Croydon, Newcastle under Lyme..
    And Tower Hamlets.
This discussion has been closed.