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Why Ukraine was particularly vulnerable to Putin’s ambitions – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 8 in General
imageWhy Ukraine was particularly vulnerable to Putin’s ambitions – politicalbetting.com

Between 1909 and 1943 geographer Halford John Mackinder outlined the Heartland theory which goes like this. You can split the world into three parts: The World-Island (Europe, Asia, and Africa combined), the Offshore Islands (British Isles, Japan, etc) and the Outlying Islands (North America, South America, and Oceania). The World-Island can in turn be split into three: the Heartland (approx the Soviet Union), the Southern Heartland (basically Africa), and the Rimlands (the bits between the two: Europe to China via the Middle East and India)

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,983
    "I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It's frightening. Turns the legs to jelly. I ask you, to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now, it's here. Or should I say, I am."

    Putin/Thanos

    Each with an aim to destroy half of all life.....
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    The world is full of people who think they are better than other people. The world is full of bullies. The world is full of liars. Putin is just a very unsubtle example. There are many other examples much closer to home.

    England would be well advised to drop her own “Heartland” exceptionalist fantasy.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    edited May 2
    Question for all of you, the answers to which will inform what I decide: How many of you are going to stay up Thursday night?

    I ask especially because I think I'm right that loads of councils are counting on Friday?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Heathener said:

    Question for all of you, the answers to which will inform what I decide: How many of you are going to stay up Thursday night?

    I ask especially because I think I'm right that loads of councils are counting on Friday?

    It’s usually pretty busy around here on counting nights. I used to prefer UK Polling Report back when that was a big thing. Long defunct.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    In fairness, it’s not really Viewcode’s thesis, but rather a very brief outline of other folks’ theories. The validity of which is not challenged. However, it is a fair assumption that Putin and many other Russians suffer from the exceptionalism bug. They think they are special. They’re not. Well, not any more special than any other nation.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 6,398
    edited May 2
    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    DELETED POST
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    edited May 2
    Is Nadine Dorries running the government?

    Every PBer will no doubt have seen Dorries's interview on Spectator TV
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMarkuxrdF8

    She talks, of course, about her department's three main bills: Online Harm (regulating the internet); privatising Channel 4; ending television licences and reforming the BBC. But these were dumped on her when she was promoted to SoS at the DCMS, and it shows because she has no real grasp of the detail, having recently misspoken about Channel 4's funding and Channel 5's privatisation, and told Microsoft to stop using algorithms.

    Dorries also speaks of the importance to her Conservatism of Mrs Thatcher's Right to Buy.

    And in today's edition of Her Majesty's Daily Telegraph, we read:-

    Boris Johnson planning to bring back Right to Buy
    Return of Thatcher-style scheme would enable tenants to purchase their housing association homes

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/boris-johnson-planning-bring-back-right-buy/ (£££)
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 6,398
    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    Heathener said:

    Question for all of you, the answers to which will inform what I decide: How many of you are going to stay up Thursday night?

    I ask especially because I think I'm right that loads of councils are counting on Friday?

    Probably to both but there will be actual councillors working the PB day shift.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    It might well describe the Russian world view, but objectively it’s a load of nonsense. Economically, which is what has always counted in terms of power, Russia is the periphery, not the centre, and always has been.

    It has a huge amount of territory, a lot of natural resources, and a history of brutal repression since it came into being.
    It’s brief superpower status was achieved entirely on the back of western technology.

    Without nukes it doesn’t even have the potential of Africa, and is more convincingly described as hinterland for Europe and/or China than ‘Heartland’.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Although they are going to be happy bunnies in Scotland, regaining the crucial second-place status. With the Tories down in third again, Labour can make a realistic bid to lead the Unionist cause for the coming campaign. BetterTogether2 was never going to be pretty, but Sarwar & Co are far more attractive than Govey, Money & Mendacity.

    - “The poll also shows Labour in second place, which if replicated on polling day would be the party's best result in years”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-line-council-election-victory-26842632
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    Plus, describing the Americas as ‘Outlying Islands’ is just risible.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    The question is whether Sue Gray has unearthed, amongst the hundreds of official photographs, a snap of Boris wearing a paper hat and quaffing champagne whilst leading a conga. Anything less and Boris will humbly apologise in the Commons and, having exhausted his faux humility, a couple of hours later rally the 1922, like last time.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    If the Express and Mail manage to help cement De Pfeffel in office until the GE then Starmer, Sturgeon and Davey are going to be delighted. Chapeau !
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    edited May 2

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Although they are going to be happy bunnies in Scotland, regaining the crucial second-place status. With the Tories down in third again, Labour can make a realistic bid to lead the Unionist cause for the coming campaign. BetterTogether2 was never going to be pretty, but Sarwar & Co are far more attractive than Govey, Money & Mendacity.

    - “The poll also shows Labour in second place, which if replicated on polling day would be the party's best result in years”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-line-council-election-victory-26842632
    Good morning Stuart.

    Labour's apparent Scottish revival under Anas Sarwar is really interesting isn't it. Much has been made on here about the impossibility of Labour winning an outright Westminster majority, but that's largely based on their implosion in Scotland. On latest polling they are on course to win c. 9 Westminster seats in Scotland with some suggesting they are beginning to push towards 15 seats.

    If they do continue this revival north of the border it changes the landscape.

    Thursday's vote could be a significant measure of how much ground they are really recovering.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20093787.adam-tomkins-anas-sarwar-forge-rosy-future-scottish-labour-expense-tories/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    Nigelb said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    It might well describe the Russian world view, but objectively it’s a load of nonsense. Economically, which is what has always counted in terms of power, Russia is the periphery, not the centre, and always has been.

    It has a huge amount of territory, a lot of natural resources, and a history of brutal repression since it came into being.
    It’s brief superpower status was achieved entirely on the back of western technology.

    Without nukes it doesn’t even have the potential of Africa, and is more convincingly described as hinterland for Europe and/or China than ‘Heartland’.
    Russia has immense natural resources, a large agricultural sector and some very clever people. There is no intrinsic reason it could not develop in the same way as China. Both have nominally communist near-dictatorships running capitalist economies; neither has the rule of law in the way we understand it.

    Its problem is more likely being run by corrupt, paranoid kleptocrats, rather than any inherent geographic flaws.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Nigelb said:

    Plus, describing the Americas as ‘Outlying Islands’ is just risible.

    Most of these sweeping geopolitical generalisations are risible. However, it is conceivable that Putin and many other Russians have been duped by guff like this.

    It’s funny how often politicians fail to observe elementary rules, eg. never believe your own propaganda.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    edited May 2

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this?
    Oh this is just a classic Boris attempt to rubbish her report because it's obviously damning. Of course the Express will latch onto it. But I would expect better of PB, if not you, than to come out with a line like 'Tory hating member of the Labour Party helped create it.'

    Daniel Stilitz QC is Director of the High Pay Centre, a think tank with close links to the Left-leaning Compass group. The think tank says it is independent and non-partisan. I don't see any evidence that he is personally a Labour party member? But even if he is, he is a professional barrister.

    Hopefully on PB we are above such nonsense.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    edited May 2
    Chums by Simon Kuper looks really good, and coming hot on the heels of Anatomy of a Scandal: reinforcing this notion that the Etonian and Oxford posh boys decided to make their own rules.

    I hate them. They have ruined Britain.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chums-by-simon-kuper-review-the-oxford-tories-who-rule-us-256fgr85q

    "Chums by Simon Kuper review — the Oxford Tories who rule us

    Johnson, Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Cummings and their tiny clique came to dominate politics — and made up their own rules"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    My take, FWIW, is that the Tories are done, and this is death throes.
    You’ve been overreacting to their attempts at pushback more than once.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    edited May 2

    Nigelb said:

    Plus, describing the Americas as ‘Outlying Islands’ is just risible.

    Most of these sweeping geopolitical generalisations are risible. However, it is conceivable that Putin and many other Russians have been duped by guff like this.

    It’s funny how often politicians fail to observe elementary rules, eg. never believe your own propaganda.
    As I acknowledged in the post above.
    It’s possible, even likely, that something along these lines is Putin’s worldview.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Although they are going to be happy bunnies in Scotland, regaining the crucial second-place status. With the Tories down in third again, Labour can make a realistic bid to lead the Unionist cause for the coming campaign. BetterTogether2 was never going to be pretty, but Sarwar & Co are far more attractive than Govey, Money & Mendacity.

    - “The poll also shows Labour in second place, which if replicated on polling day would be the party's best result in years”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-line-council-election-victory-26842632
    Good morning Stuart.

    Labour's apparent Scottish revival under Anas Sarwar is really interesting isn't it. Much has been made on here about the impossibility of Labour winning an outright Westminster majority, but that's largely based on their implosion in Scotland. On latest polling they are on course to win c. 9 Westminster seats in Scotland with some suggesting they are beginning to push towards 15 seats.

    If they do continue this revival north of the border it changes the landscape.

    Thursday's vote could be a significant measure of how much ground they are really recovering.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20093787.adam-tomkins-anas-sarwar-forge-rosy-future-scottish-labour-expense-tories/
    Good morning Heathener.

    9 to 15 SLab seats is conceivable, but still looking highly unlikely under the new boundaries. In order to reach respectable numbers like that they would need to get up to approx 30%, with the SNP dropping to around 40%. The SNP are already in that MoE ballpark (42% in last two full-sample Westminster VI polls), but SLab are still a way off 30% (24% and 26% in last two polls).

    However, and it’s a big however, 9-15 SLab seats is simply not enough to give Starmer a majority. He needs a Tory collapse in the Midlands. That just looks inconceivable in the current climate.

    Lab Maj 5 looks way too short.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    edited May 2

    Nigelb said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    It might well describe the Russian world view, but objectively it’s a load of nonsense. Economically, which is what has always counted in terms of power, Russia is the periphery, not the centre, and always has been.

    It has a huge amount of territory, a lot of natural resources, and a history of brutal repression since it came into being.
    It’s brief superpower status was achieved entirely on the back of western technology.

    Without nukes it doesn’t even have the potential of Africa, and is more convincingly described as hinterland for Europe and/or China than ‘Heartland’.
    Russia has immense natural resources, a large agricultural sector and some very clever people. There is no intrinsic reason it could not develop in the same way as China. Both have nominally communist near-dictatorships running capitalist economies; neither has the rule of law in the way we understand it.

    Its problem is more likely being run by corrupt, paranoid kleptocrats, rather than any inherent geographic flaws.
    No particular reason other than demographics, and the opposite lessons of its entire history. It has been periphery since the first Czars.

    And many of the very clever people are trying to leave since the invasion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    Interesting.
    Today, @nytimes is publishing “American Nationalist,” our 3-part investigation into the fall and rise of Tucker Carlson and the transformation of American conservatism. Part 1 will appear in Sunday’s paper. A 🧵on our story and findings
    https://twitter.com/nickconfessore/status/1520465256866357248
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    I love cycle sport, but I think the UCI are making a serious error of judgment allowing Russian athletes to compete in their events. Aleksandr Vlasov is said to be an opponent of Putin, but his victory in the Tour de Romandie yesterday still leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    Heathener said:

    Chums by Simon Kuper looks really good, and coming hot on the heels of Anatomy of a Scandal: reinforcing this notion that the Etonian and Oxford posh boys decided to make their own rules.

    I hate them. They have ruined Britain.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chums-by-simon-kuper-review-the-oxford-tories-who-rule-us-256fgr85q

    "Chums by Simon Kuper review — the Oxford Tories who rule us

    Johnson, Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Cummings and their tiny clique came to dominate politics — and made up their own rules"

    Thanks. Added to kindle.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    Just to be clear, I didn’t intend to rubbish Viewcode’s article, which is interesting. The views it describes are absurd, but probably not far from what the Russian nationalists believe.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,394
    A thread referencing Halford Mackinder gets my approval. :smile:

    I think this analysis is spot on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    A very good article length account of actual Russian and Ukrainian history can be found here.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/essay/the-war-in-ukraine-is-a-colonial-war

    This part of its conclusion was interesting.
    … Ukraine is a post-colonial country, one that does not define itself against exploitation so much as accept, and sometimes even celebrate, the complications of emerging from it. Its people are bilingual, and its soldiers speak the language of the invader as well as their own. The war is fought in a decentralized way, dependent on the solidarity of local communities. These communities are diverse, but together they defend the notion of Ukraine as a political nation. There is something heartening in this. The model of the nation as a mini-empire, replicating inequalities on a smaller scale, and aiming for a homogeneity that is confused with identity, has worn itself out. If we are going to have democratic states in the twenty-first century, they will have to accept some of the complexity that is taken for granted in Ukraine...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,315
    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    ‘Porn MP’ Neil Parish was looking for ‘Dominator’, friends say
    Devon councillor believes search for popular brand of combine harvester led to ‘excellent’ MP watching pornography in Parliament

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/porn-mp-neil-parish-looking-dominator-friends-say/ (£££)

    MPs might be well advised to check their "safe search" settings.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    And people say Biden is getting a bit yonderly….

    Trump just said at a rally that he endorsed a candidate named “JP right? JD Mandel” in the Ohio Senate race. In reality, he endorsed JD Vance over Josh Mandel, revealing that he can’t even remember the candidate he endorsed.
    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1520934472543354880
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    German FM Annalena Baerbock says withdrawal of all 🇷🇺 soldiers from Ukraine could be precondition for lifting sanctions against 🇷🇺

    "Peace under conditions dictated by 🇷🇺 will not bring security to 🇺🇦 or Europe; may be invitation to next war"

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1520938705845903360
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Nigelb said:

    A very good article length account of actual Russian and Ukrainian history can be found here.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/essay/the-war-in-ukraine-is-a-colonial-war

    This part of its conclusion was interesting.
    … Ukraine is a post-colonial country, one that does not define itself against exploitation so much as accept, and sometimes even celebrate, the complications of emerging from it. Its people are bilingual, and its soldiers speak the language of the invader as well as their own. The war is fought in a decentralized way, dependent on the solidarity of local communities. These communities are diverse, but together they defend the notion of Ukraine as a political nation. There is something heartening in this. The model of the nation as a mini-empire, replicating inequalities on a smaller scale, and aiming for a homogeneity that is confused with identity, has worn itself out. If we are going to have democratic states in the twenty-first century, they will have to accept some of the complexity that is taken for granted in Ukraine...

    Sorely tempted, but I’ll resist.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,206
    Good morning from “Rimland”, and Eid Mubarak to all Muslim PBers.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
    Can one “order” someone to “self-identify”?

    Some folks might like to “order” rebellious Jocks to identify as “Brits” (sic), which is their rather odd inclination. Our prerogative is to choose our own identity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
    Can one “order” someone to “self-identify”?

    Some folks might like to “order” rebellious Jocks to identify as “Brits” (sic), which is their rather odd inclination. Our prerogative is to choose our own identity.
    I don’t know, I was just picking up on your comment that there are lots of men and we need to stop them threatening to use nuclear weapons. It seemed an obvious solution.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,010
    Isn't Putin considering western Europe to be fans of rimming where all this started?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,034
    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
    Can one “order” someone to “self-identify”?

    Some folks might like to “order” rebellious Jocks to identify as “Brits” (sic), which is their rather odd inclination. Our prerogative is to choose our own identity.
    For centuries, non-rebellious Jocks have also been Brits but many now are wondering to what extent those two identities are compatible. Not many orders have been issued.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,234

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    In fairness, it’s not really Viewcode’s thesis, but rather a very brief outline of other folks’ theories. The validity of which is not challenged. However, it is a fair assumption that Putin and many other Russians suffer from the exceptionalism bug. They think they are special. They’re not. Well, not any more special than any other nation.
    And nations themselves are not that special either. They are just human constructs, some of which have a bit more longevity than a Tom Knox airport thriller.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,234

    Is Nadine Dorries running the government?

    Every PBer will no doubt have seen Dorries's interview on Spectator TV
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMarkuxrdF8

    She talks, of course, about her department's three main bills: Online Harm (regulating the internet); privatising Channel 4; ending television licences and reforming the BBC. But these were dumped on her when she was promoted to SoS at the DCMS, and it shows because she has no real grasp of the detail, having recently misspoken about Channel 4's funding and Channel 5's privatisation, and told Microsoft to stop using algorithms.

    Dorries also speaks of the importance to her Conservatism of Mrs Thatcher's Right to Buy.

    And in today's edition of Her Majesty's Daily Telegraph, we read:-

    Boris Johnson planning to bring back Right to Buy
    Return of Thatcher-style scheme would enable tenants to purchase their housing association homes

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/boris-johnson-planning-bring-back-right-buy/ (£££)

    Wait: Microsoft uses algorithms??? The bastards.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 46,234

    Nigelb said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    It might well describe the Russian world view, but objectively it’s a load of nonsense. Economically, which is what has always counted in terms of power, Russia is the periphery, not the centre, and always has been.

    It has a huge amount of territory, a lot of natural resources, and a history of brutal repression since it came into being.
    It’s brief superpower status was achieved entirely on the back of western technology.

    Without nukes it doesn’t even have the potential of Africa, and is more convincingly described as hinterland for Europe and/or China than ‘Heartland’.
    Russia has immense natural resources, a large agricultural sector and some very clever people. There is no intrinsic reason it could not develop in the same way as China. Both have nominally communist near-dictatorships running capitalist economies; neither has the rule of law in the way we understand it.

    Its problem is more likely being run by corrupt, paranoid kleptocrats, rather than any inherent geographic flaws.
    Russia does not have a nominally communist leadership.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
    Can one “order” someone to “self-identify”?

    Some folks might like to “order” rebellious Jocks to identify as “Brits” (sic), which is their rather odd inclination. Our prerogative is to choose our own identity.
    For centuries, non-rebellious Jocks have also been Brits but many now are wondering to what extent those two identities are compatible. Not many orders have been issued.
    There must have been some people who start a flight as citizens of one country, and land as citizens of another, because the country has changed whilst they were flying?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,335
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Thanks Viewcode. How do we stop a man threatening to use nuclear weapons?

    How do we stop men threatening to use nuclear weapons? There are lots of them.
    If we ordered all of them to self identify as women, there would cease to be lots of men. Problem solved.
    Can one “order” someone to “self-identify”?

    Some folks might like to “order” rebellious Jocks to identify as “Brits” (sic), which is their rather odd inclination. Our prerogative is to choose our own identity.
    I don’t know, I was just picking up on your comment that there are lots of men and we need to stop them threatening to use nuclear weapons. It seemed an obvious solution.
    I think Stuart just wants a Scotch Recognition Certificate.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    rcs1000 said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    In fairness, it’s not really Viewcode’s thesis, but rather a very brief outline of other folks’ theories. The validity of which is not challenged. However, it is a fair assumption that Putin and many other Russians suffer from the exceptionalism bug. They think they are special. They’re not. Well, not any more special than any other nation.
    And nations themselves are not that special either. They are just human constructs, some of which have a bit more longevity than a Tom Knox airport thriller.
    The world would be a much better place if we recognised this truth.

    It's particularly apparent in Africa, where colonialists carved up the continent, slicing across all sorts of tribal, ethnic and geographical fault lines.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Heathener said:

    rcs1000 said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    In fairness, it’s not really Viewcode’s thesis, but rather a very brief outline of other folks’ theories. The validity of which is not challenged. However, it is a fair assumption that Putin and many other Russians suffer from the exceptionalism bug. They think they are special. They’re not. Well, not any more special than any other nation.
    And nations themselves are not that special either. They are just human constructs, some of which have a bit more longevity than a Tom Knox airport thriller.
    The world would be a much better place if we recognised this truth.

    It's particularly apparent in Africa, where colonialists carved up the continent, slicing across all sorts of tribal, ethnic and geographical fault lines.
    Just one example: the BaKongo people, Kikongo speaking, were divided from one another by three artificial national boundaries across northern Angola, south-western DRC (formerly Zaire) and Cabinda.

    There are myriads of other crass examples.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    Extinction Rebellion started in Stroud. It's not untypical of much of the town.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    This was inevitable. Shoot the messenger. The Gray report stuffed full of hard evidence of how many times good-old Boris partied? Just rubbish the people who really wrote it - then you can ignore all the evidence as its a political stitch up. Anyway where is the Gray report into whether Angela Rayner has a vagina?

    We're into our version of the final sequence of Don't Look Up. You can't trust what your eyes see because we have persuaded you to dislike the people who warned you it was coming.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    If the Express and Mail manage to help cement De Pfeffel in office until the GE then Starmer, Sturgeon and Davey are going to be delighted. Chapeau !
    Remember that in the real world the cost of living crisis is growing worse and worse, and the government's preferred "solution" is to have people spend their savings on heating their homes.

    Which does make some kind of sense. There is no money to be made in saving money, so you may as well spend it on an appreciating asset like gas.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    Yes, many times.

    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.

    And since this blog ultimately focuses on the implications of events for UK politics, they were discussed for a while or when they were in the news but not usually on general principles.

    You could of course write a thread header drawing the parallels - that might stimulate discussion.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,983
    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,094
    Mr Mark,

    "I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It's frightening. Turns the legs to jelly. I ask you, to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now, it's here. Or should I say, I am."

    I assumed that was the definition of an 'activist'?

    Add in someone asked by the BBC to appear and pontificate on a subject because they're guaranteed to emote. How does being described as an 'activist' add any lustre or knowledge?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,482

    Heathener said:

    And another very interesting piece on Sky suggesting a big divide with Labour failing to make a breakthrough in northern towns and former industrial heartlands:

    https://news.sky.com/story/local-elections-2022-growing-divide-in-england-predicted-as-cities-could-swing-to-labour-while-tories-likely-to-hold-on-in-towns-12603868

    Why are deprived red wall areas still sticking with Boris despite everything?

    In more gloom for opposition to Boris, the DT front page headline that Sue Gray report is far from unbiased now, as a Tory hating member of the Labour Party has helped create it, has already done the rounds in express and mail.

    What is the PB take on this? Tories seem at least on way if not already there neutralising Sue Report as a threat to Boris, whenever published - what MP could use it to try to oust Boris when it’s impartiality from party politics is now questioned like this? 🤔

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1602905/sue-gray-partygate-boris-johnson-daniel-stillitz-labour-brexit-tory-latest-news-ont

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10769221/Totally-inappropriate-Backlash-grows-Remain-backing-QC-advising-Sue-Gray-Partygate-inquiry.html
    This was inevitable. Shoot the messenger. The Gray report stuffed full of hard evidence of how many times good-old Boris partied? Just rubbish the people who really wrote it - then you can ignore all the evidence as its a political stitch up. Anyway where is the Gray report into whether Angela Rayner has a vagina?

    We're into our version of the final sequence of Don't Look Up. You can't trust what your eyes see because we have persuaded you to dislike the people who warned you it was coming.
    It could be the final sequence, but then again, people have been saying that about Johnson for years. We could quite easily go round the loop again in an even more absurd way.

    Sort of like the finale to this;
    https://youtu.be/CtLpv6huG3A
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    I'm not sure you're right here MM. I really am not. I have not detected more anger around since 1997.

    And your response does rather tie-in, if I may say, with the tory candidate's own comment, resonating with a few other pb tories. Essentially it's to stick fingers in ears and tell us what we're hearing is not true.

    We will see, but I sense the mood has changed and the anger is for real this time.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    Yes, many times.

    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.
    .
    A thread on those conflicts? You sure?

    And there is lots we could do to help in those conflicts.

    I suggest the real reason is that this one is kind-of in our back yard and it's happening to white Europeans not nig-nogs and gollywogs in far away lands.

    Appalling but true?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,405

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    It happens to everyone, but you plough on and reach your voters. If Tory candidates are running away from this because they have to work a little for the first time in years that’s not a great sign for the Conservatives.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,482

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Anyway, I'm off out so have a good day folks.

    For the avoidance of doubt, the situation in Ukraine is godawful and Putin is Public Enemy no.1. A menace to the entire world. He needs removing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
    Okay, I'll take issue with this. firstly, I was responding to what the previous poster wrote, not the candidate. Secondly, 'alt-facts' are everywhere in politics, in all parties. The more you get into politics, and particularly a political party, the deeper the 'alt-facts' can get. I'm certainly not immune to them; and I bet you are not either.

    When you canvas, are you really sure that *everything* you say is the true, unvarnished truth? No exaggerations or simplifications to make someone more likely to vote for you?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,405

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
    The new Tories are very Trumpian in that regard. They spend too much time in a bubble. If they poke their noses outside, they can’t handle it and call foul. Look at the Daily Mail and it’s influence on some posters here.

    Similar scenario on the far left.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,983
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    I'm not sure you're right here MM. I really am not. I have not detected more anger around since 1997.

    And your response does rather tie-in, if I may say, with the tory candidate's own comment, resonating with a few other pb tories. Essentially it's to stick fingers in ears and tell us what we're hearing is not true.

    We will see, but I sense the mood has changed and the anger is for real this time.
    "I'm not sure you're right here MM. I really am not."

    Of course I'm right. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

    Thank you for reinventing my reality.

    How very typical of you.

    PS Do you have any idea what the Infinity Stones are? Or who wields them? Or his intention for all life in the Universe? No Googling now.....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
    Its Johnson - he is a populist. He needs to be loved and has instilled that boosterism bullshit deep into the operating manual for his party. Well I say manual, its more like 10 PRINT "BOOBS" 20 GOTO 10

    Observationally what really upsets them most is when they tell egregious lies and people stand up to them with facts. Just lie about how amazing everything is - boosterism - and if someone points out that people are poor and unhappy just blame the media or Angela Rayner's growler or say people are poorer in the EU or any old bullshit to deflect away from reality.

    This is how we end up with intelligent people saying the most stupid things. They go along with the mood which starts off based on reality but even after it drifts into "there is no asteroid" they're still willing to suspend disbelief because all the people they have decided are allies and even friends are saying it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    edited May 2
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    Yes, many times.

    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.
    .
    A thread on those conflicts? You sure?

    And there is lots we could do to help in those conflicts.

    I suggest the real reason is that this one is kind-of in our back yard and it's happening to white Europeans not nig-nogs and gollywogs in far away lands.

    Appalling but true?
    Not threads - discussions. The thread headers tend to focus on betting implications. There aren't any for British politics on the Yemen conflict. Cyclefree's headers tend to be about more moral and ethical matters, but are also UK focused.

    That's why I'm suggesting you write a thread. Particularly if you can suggest ways to help. I'm sure many people, like me, have donated money to the relief programmes, but it's difficult to see how we can say, arm the side under attack so they can fight back as we do in Ukraine when they're not actually fighting back (largely because they can't).
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
    The new Tories are very Trumpian in that regard. They spend too much time in a bubble. If they poke their noses outside, they can’t handle it and call foul. Look at the Daily Mail and it’s influence on some posters here.

    Similar scenario on the far left.
    Great post and spot on about the far left too. Actually I think it also happened to Metropolitan elite Remainers: there was a period under Tony Blair, and probably the coalition, when they lost touch with what was really happening. How significant places were not on the benevolent Brussels gravy train: ghost towns up the east coast and across the north.

    Blair & Co. didn't listen. They were in their own bubble.

    The rest, as they say, is history.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    edited May 2
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    Yes, many times.

    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.
    .
    A thread on those conflicts? You sure?

    And there is lots we could do to help in those conflicts.

    I suggest the real reason is that this one is kind-of in our back yard and it's happening to white Europeans not [redacted] and [redacted] in far away lands.

    Appalling but true?
    Please don't use offensive racial epithets that will, inter alia, trip corporate filters to block pb, and that are, as the name suggests, offensive.

    ETA and five minutes later you announce your departure, which suggests greater interest in trolling than in discussion.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748
    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    There have even rare discussions on Kashmir, Uighars and Myanmar in-thread. And from memory we ?used? to have someone who I believe was pro-Tamil (who also performed a worthy and unusual change of mind on a politician he did not like). I have gone into the Kurdish situation on a few occasions.

    But the answer is simple: if you want them discussed, produce either a threader for OGH, or compose a well-considered comment about it. If you care about something that you believe does not get enough attention, mention it regularly, hopefully in context and politely.

    The problem is that this is a UK blog, mainly frequented by UK citizens. Its main focus is on UK politics, with certain other countries getting occasional look-ins (e.g. France recently). The way politics has been moving over the last six years, it's probably hard for much else to get a look-in!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
    Okay, I'll take issue with this. firstly, I was responding to what the previous poster wrote, not the candidate. Secondly, 'alt-facts' are everywhere in politics, in all parties. The more you get into politics, and particularly a political party, the deeper the 'alt-facts' can get. I'm certainly not immune to them; and I bet you are not either.

    When you canvas, are you really sure that *everything* you say is the true, unvarnished truth? No exaggerations or simplifications to make someone more likely to vote for you?
    You are an intelligent chap, you know the boundaries between political spin and open lies. Its absolutely the case that all parties have said things that are silly - I will proffer various LD bar charts as evidence from my own lot.

    But there is a massive difference between that and open lies on pretty much every subject. The Tories get pulled up for lying on almost every subject these days - usually by people like the ONS. they say "I didn't say that", then get played the clip of them saying that, and respond with "no no no its you biased media types making it up".

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one. When you call it out they get uppity. And that "I'VE BEEN CANCELLED" approach is what this candidate is doing. Nobody has said she isn't welcome. But as they will challenge lies with evidence she won't go.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Heathener said:

    rcs1000 said:

    An interesting thesis from @viewcode in the header, though I am not sure how far it gets us.

    In fairness, it’s not really Viewcode’s thesis, but rather a very brief outline of other folks’ theories. The validity of which is not challenged. However, it is a fair assumption that Putin and many other Russians suffer from the exceptionalism bug. They think they are special. They’re not. Well, not any more special than any other nation.
    And nations themselves are not that special either. They are just human constructs, some of which have a bit more longevity than a Tom Knox airport thriller.
    The world would be a much better place if we recognised this truth.

    It's particularly apparent in Africa, where colonialists carved up the continent, slicing across all sorts of tribal, ethnic and geographical fault lines.
    They created states, not nations.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    I'm not sure you're right here MM. I really am not. I have not detected more anger around since 1997.

    And your response does rather tie-in, if I may say, with the tory candidate's own comment, resonating with a few other pb tories. Essentially it's to stick fingers in ears and tell us what we're hearing is not true.

    We will see, but I sense the mood has changed and the anger is for real this time.
    "I'm not sure you're right here MM. I really am not."

    Of course I'm right. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

    Thank you for reinventing my reality.

    How very typical of you.

    PS Do you have any idea what the Infinity Stones are? Or who wields them? Or his intention for all life in the Universe? No Googling now.....
    Difficult to respond to someone who says that of course they are right, but I assume that's in jest.

    I've watched all of the Marvel movies many times over with my son. Thanks for being so patronising.

    The comparison of Putin to Thanos is beyond a joke. Putin, of course, would adore the idea. He's not Thanos. He's a little man in every regard who has got away with blue murder because we let him.

    p.s. obvs my hero is Captain Marvel although there are a few other kickass females. Stan was pretty progressive in that regard.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,405
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
    The new Tories are very Trumpian in that regard. They spend too much time in a bubble. If they poke their noses outside, they can’t handle it and call foul. Look at the Daily Mail and it’s influence on some posters here.

    Similar scenario on the far left.
    Great post and spot on about the far left too. Actually I think it also happened to Metropolitan elite Remainers: there was a period under Tony Blair, and probably the coalition, when they lost touch with what was really happening. How significant places were not on the benevolent Brussels gravy train: ghost towns up the east coast and across the north.

    Blair & Co. didn't listen. They were in their own bubble.

    The rest, as they say, is history.
    I would say that the last 7-8 years have punctured any bubbles or illusions around centrism. It was not a comfortable place to be, The good news is that as a result, the centrists have toughened up, got organised and started to figure out ways to fight back against the extremes. The unravelling of Boris’s promises has provided the opportunity and it’s great to see it being grabbed.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Though one of the curiosities of this iteration of the Conservative party is how thin-skinned it is. Maggie revelled in opposition- this lot get incredibly batey about anyone saying that they are not national saviours.

    How much that is Johnson's personality and how much it's the bubbleisation of news media, I don't know.
    The new Tories are very Trumpian in that regard. They spend too much time in a bubble. If they poke their noses outside, they can’t handle it and call foul. Look at the Daily Mail and it’s influence on some posters here.

    Similar scenario on the far left.
    Great post and spot on about the far left too. Actually I think it also happened to Metropolitan elite Remainers: there was a period under Tony Blair, and probably the coalition, when they lost touch with what was really happening. How significant places were not on the benevolent Brussels gravy train: ghost towns up the east coast and across the north.

    Blair & Co. didn't listen. They were in their own bubble.

    The rest, as they say, is history.
    I think they lost touch with the *impact* not the data. None of what the Labour lot were saying about how many new hospitals they had built was a lie. The employment claims backed up by the ONS. It wasn't open lies like we get now from the Tories.

    The problem was the "why" not the "what". Red Wall places which were crapholes in 1997 got a load of cash. New facilities. Better infrastructure. Educational and health attainments way up. But people didn't like other places doing better.

    They quickly forgot the rampant decay of the early 90s and instead wanted the best and thought they didn't get it. Then Labour councils - faced with budget cuts from Westminster - meekly said "its their fault not ours" and tried to blame a decade of drift onto the coalition then Tory governments. Didn't work.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,353
    edited May 2

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
    Okay, I'll take issue with this. firstly, I was responding to what the previous poster wrote, not the candidate. Secondly, 'alt-facts' are everywhere in politics, in all parties. The more you get into politics, and particularly a political party, the deeper the 'alt-facts' can get. I'm certainly not immune to them; and I bet you are not either.

    When you canvas, are you really sure that *everything* you say is the true, unvarnished truth? No exaggerations or simplifications to make someone more likely to vote for you?
    You are an intelligent chap, you know the boundaries between political spin and open lies. Its absolutely the case that all parties have said things that are silly - I will proffer various LD bar charts as evidence from my own lot.

    But there is a massive difference between that and open lies on pretty much every subject. The Tories get pulled up for lying on almost every subject these days - usually by people like the ONS. they say "I didn't say that", then get played the clip of them saying that, and respond with "no no no its you biased media types making it up".

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one. When you call it out they get uppity. And that "I'VE BEEN CANCELLED" approach is what this candidate is doing. Nobody has said she isn't welcome. But as they will challenge lies with evidence she won't go.
    That candidate isn’t claiming to have been cancelled. She is just making up an excuse for dodging a hustings. Effectively she is cancelling herself and not putting herself and her policies up for scrutiny. I’d think, whatever the party, such a candidate would not be an ideal councillor.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,620

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one.

    The SNP are having a good go though
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 9,627
    Scott_xP said:

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one.

    The SNP are having a good go though
    Just when you start thinking Scott is a reformed character, his true colours show.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
    Okay, I'll take issue with this. firstly, I was responding to what the previous poster wrote, not the candidate. Secondly, 'alt-facts' are everywhere in politics, in all parties. The more you get into politics, and particularly a political party, the deeper the 'alt-facts' can get. I'm certainly not immune to them; and I bet you are not either.

    When you canvas, are you really sure that *everything* you say is the true, unvarnished truth? No exaggerations or simplifications to make someone more likely to vote for you?
    You are an intelligent chap, you know the boundaries between political spin and open lies. Its absolutely the case that all parties have said things that are silly - I will proffer various LD bar charts as evidence from my own lot.

    But there is a massive difference between that and open lies on pretty much every subject. The Tories get pulled up for lying on almost every subject these days - usually by people like the ONS. they say "I didn't say that", then get played the clip of them saying that, and respond with "no no no its you biased media types making it up".

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one. When you call it out they get uppity. And that "I'VE BEEN CANCELLED" approach is what this candidate is doing. Nobody has said she isn't welcome. But as they will challenge lies with evidence she won't go.
    That candidate isn’t claiming to have been cancelled. She is just making up an excuse for dodging a hustings. Effectively she is cancelling herself and not putting herself and her policies up for scrutiny.
    Exactly! And "they won't give me a hearing" is the narrative which fuels the cancel woke culture complaint that our favourite travel writer seems obsessed with. So yes, Dorries needs to sell Channel 4 to GBeebies and quickly, to stop them asking her nasty questions and broadcasting her swaying drunkenly in the central lobby.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    CD13 said:

    While I'm having a moan ... I listened to a 'defence expert' who was a real expert on BBC recently. He was giving a very clear and concise explanation of the invasion, and the reasons it had bogged down. He was contunually being interrupted by the interviewer with questions he'd just answered and irrelevant ones. She was reading from a crib sheet and not even listening to his answers.

    As soon as he reached an interesting point, she interrupt with a barmy question of her own. Just let him speak, I found my self saying. It felt like Einstein was being harassed by an intelligent lettuce.

    I thought the journalists had learned from the enbarrassing debacle of some of the Covid press conferences. Obviously not.

    Talleyrand would have been nodding...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,420
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    It happens to everyone, but you plough on and reach your voters. If Tory candidates are running away from this because they have to work a little for the first time in years that’s not a great sign for the Conservatives.
    No elections near me but I was out in the High Peak yesterday, and came back the scenic route.

    Poster count:

    1 Lab and 1 LD in Sheffield

    7 for Green in a bit of Derwent just north of Derby, all within a mile.

    Conservative nil
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I stifled a laugh at this bit:

    “Ms Denton, a South African-born former tour guide, has also decided not to attend a hustings in Frome, near Bath, because she does not think “nasty” locals in the town will give her a fair hearing.”

    Frome is up there with Hebden Bridge, Totnes and perhaps Bishops Castle and Stroud as a bastion of hand-knitted, organic progressive politics. If the Conservatives ever thought attending a hustings there would be a good idea then I have serious doubts about their strategy.
    So 'progressive' means not listening to what a candidate has to say?
    She didn't say they wouldn't listen, just that they wouldn't listen "fairly". Which is Tory talk for not accepting the absolute pack of lies being offered and being nasty by producing facts and lived experience examples demonstrating how the Tory hasn't a clue.

    Its very difficult to debate with people when alt-fact has embedded in their brains. Anyway, it won't have been the town refusing to debate, it will have been the Tory. Whilst shrieking I'M BEING SILENCED or something.
    Okay, I'll take issue with this. firstly, I was responding to what the previous poster wrote, not the candidate. Secondly, 'alt-facts' are everywhere in politics, in all parties. The more you get into politics, and particularly a political party, the deeper the 'alt-facts' can get. I'm certainly not immune to them; and I bet you are not either.

    When you canvas, are you really sure that *everything* you say is the true, unvarnished truth? No exaggerations or simplifications to make someone more likely to vote for you?
    You are an intelligent chap, you know the boundaries between political spin and open lies. Its absolutely the case that all parties have said things that are silly - I will proffer various LD bar charts as evidence from my own lot.

    But there is a massive difference between that and open lies on pretty much every subject. The Tories get pulled up for lying on almost every subject these days - usually by people like the ONS. they say "I didn't say that", then get played the clip of them saying that, and respond with "no no no its you biased media types making it up".

    There has never been a party in government or close to it that has build its entire ethos on lies like this one. When you call it out they get uppity. And that "I'VE BEEN CANCELLED" approach is what this candidate is doing. Nobody has said she isn't welcome. But as they will challenge lies with evidence she won't go.
    Let's take a simple and topical example: Rayner's apology over her 'scum' comment. Many on here call her apology heartfelt, commendable and good: to the extent she cannot be criticised for her original comment. Yet the 'facts' are that she initially refused to apologise, and only apologised a month later (after a fellow MP was murdered). An opinion - her apology was good - becomes in the minds of many a 'fact' that you cannot argue with, and if you do argue, it's because you're the bad person.

    I have made some statements there that can be backed up:
    *) she made the 'scum' comment;
    *) she refused to apologise;
    *) she eventually apologised after a month;
    *) and that was after a colleague was murdered.

    I don't think these can be disputed. What can be disputed is whether those facts make her apology a 'good' or a 'bad' one. But that's opinion.

    Yet people take these and, because they like her, or like her party, or agree with her, they turn them into a 'fact' that her apology means that she cannot be criticised for her original comment.

    And yet when someone they don't like does something - say a Tory MP - then *no* apology, however immediate, however heartfelt, can ever be genuine.

    Facts, eh?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,883

    The world is full of people who think they are better than other people. The world is full of bullies. The world is full of liars. Putin is just a very unsubtle example. There are many other examples much closer to home.

    England would be well advised to drop her own “Heartland” exceptionalist fantasy.

    That's just pathetic Stuart.

    It's demonstrably not the case that modern "England" considers Scotland a colony to subsume, rape and plunder in the way that Russia is dismantling Ukraine.

    Scotland has its own imperialist past to contend with, in particular the "Yes" cities of Dundee and Glasgow.

    Most PB nationalists have the grace to direct their ire at "Westminster" or the Tories. It's smart too - independence will never be won on the blood and soil ticket.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,112
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, 'bubbles' are nothing new. Social media echo chambers are commonplace, and the Westminster agreement that the EU was lovely meant our politicians were, through lack of practice, unable to have a conversation regarding the institution beyond the we agree it's splendid/you're a fruitcake dichotomy.

    That bubble cost Remain an eminently winnable victory because they'd utterly lost the art of making the case for the EU.

    People often dislike disagreement and some even take it as a personal slight. There may be a natural trend for modern social media to create such circles of singing from the same hymn sheet which does not require much thinking as views aren't challenged. I do wonder if older style forums which had scope for disagreement as a feature and a flame board if things got toasty were better.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,412
    Heathener said:

    And whilst I'm on international affairs, I know it's horrendous in Ukraine but has there ever been a thread or discussion on here about the situation in Kashmir? Or Tigray? Or Yemen? Or the horrendous treatment of Rohingya refugees in Myanmar? Or Uighurs?

    This isn't whataboutery. There are conflicts and wars across the globe.

    The situation in Kashmir particularly gets me. What has happened in beautiful Srinigar is beyond awful.

    “Message for the day: distract attention from Russian war crimes by talking about other wars”.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,080

    Heathener said:

    MM, really and truly that's such a silly comparison. Moving on from the war gaming:

    Interesting piece in the Telegraph about a Conservative candidate in Somerset. Leaflets getting thrown in her face and posters being ripped down.

    There's a lot of anger out there ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/01/disillusioned-blue-wall-voters-spell-trouble-tories-ahead-local/

    I would suggest that at virtually every election, there are leaflets thrown back at Conservatives and posters ripped down. Happened to me at every election where I have had the Conservative candidate I was working for get elected.

    Suggest folks don't get carried away at every little anecdote.
    Same for me on the other side of the fence. Shame though that it happens.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,335
    Foodie map porn - 1920 Gastronomic Map of France
    Link to high def version below

    https://i.redd.it/n1i7kthvc7v11.jpg
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,596
    ydoethur said:



    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.

    The tories have sold the Saudis 7bn quid worth of weapons since the war in Yemen began. What more do you want them to do for the Yemeni people?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    I still love the Peter Mandelson guacamole story.

    Even if doubt has been cast on its veracity, it does rather sum it up. As did Private Eye's 'It's Grim up North London' series.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:



    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.

    The tories have sold the Saudis 7bn quid worth of weapons since the war in Yemen began. What more do you want them to do for the Yemeni people?
    Rig one of them to explode in front of Mohammed bin Salman?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:



    I think the reason why they are less prominent is because in most of those cases there was rapid realisation that there was little the government or us as individuals could do to help. Ukraine is different because there's an actual fight going on that we can support.

    The tories have sold the Saudis 7bn quid worth of weapons since the war in Yemen began. What more do you want them to do for the Yemeni people?
    !!!
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