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Wallace and Truss top the latest CONHome ratings – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited April 2022
    First poll for the June French legislative elections has En Marche down 8% from the 32% it got in 2017 in the first round to 24%. However it is still just ahead of RN on 23%.

    Melenchon's LFI is 3rd on 19% with Les Republicains tied with the Greens on 8%

    https://twitter.com/rclmt/status/1518627443019501569?s=20&t=Eeu3ZOU0G623GQXoAgF4Sg
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    The Texas governor is now appealing to Elon to bring Twitter to his state.

    @GregAbbott_TX
    @elonmusk. Bring Twitter to Texas to join Tesla, SpaceX & the Boring company.


    https://twitter.com/GregAbbott_TX/status/1518693037337194496

    Perhaps create a special district just for Elon Musk? Like Florida did for Walt Disney?
    Musktopia?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    If you believe Putin is mad enough to use nukes now, why do you believe he'd suddenly become sane and not threaten to use them after he gets what he wants, and Russia is still a sh*thole and not the world leader it is in his head? Especially as the threat just worked?

    It is little to do with 'standing up to a bully'; it is trying to staunch the threat whilst we can.
    Again, metaphors are not your friend. You can't "staunch" a Sarmat ICBM.

    And I come back to my Piranha brothers point. Even the criminally violent tend to make and stick to arbitrary rules. There is no reason for an insane Putin to even recognise the existence of NATO, but it seems he does.
    Time to call the arsehole's bluff, tell him to put up or shut up and get back into the forest where he belongs.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357

    It seems to be really hard to use Amazon shopping now without inadvertently signing up to Prime.

    You have to concentrate on hitting the right (tiny and non-highlighted) button every time.

    Yes, who wants to deal with that hassle?

    My wife now only uses single-use virtual cards to pay for things on Amazon, so that she doesn't have to worry about being signed up to Prime, as they won't be able to take any recurring payments from her.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    If you believe Putin is mad enough to use nukes now, why do you believe he'd suddenly become sane and not threaten to use them after he gets what he wants, and Russia is still a sh*thole and not the world leader it is in his head? Especially as the threat just worked?

    It is little to do with 'standing up to a bully'; it is trying to staunch the threat whilst we can.
    Again, metaphors are not your friend. You can't "staunch" a Sarmat ICBM.

    And I come back to my Piranha brothers point. Even the criminally violent tend to make and stick to arbitrary rules. There is no reason for an insane Putin to even recognise the existence of NATO, but it seems he does.
    And you cannot stop Putin demanding more if we cravenly cave in to his evil.

    Then why is he and his regime threatening NATO states, and saying they should be under Russia's sphere of influence? he may 'recognise' the existence of NATO; that does not mean the NATO he envisages is the NATO we have at the moment.
    More metaphors. There is no "trying to staunch the threat while we still can" as if he were building up an empire which will one day be big enough to threaten us. He already has Sarmat.

    Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere and there seems to be a consensus that the line is NATO countries. I wouldn't be comfortable doing less than we are doing but it is already an ultra high risk strategy and I don't wanna do any more.

    Let us not forget russia nuking its own satellite last November. I wonder why it did that. There's a non zero chance Armageddon is already scripted in some detail: the timetable for Sarmat coming online must have been known for years, and I do wonder whether it dictated the timetable for Ukraine.
    Did anyone else watch Trump on TalkTV with Peirs Morgan last night? He claimed he would ban the "N word" in any discussions with Russia and repeatedly claimed that the threat to Russia was far, far more powerful than anything coming the other way. Of course there is the problem that he is as mad as a box of frogs.
    No.
    I'd prefer to watch real primary school kids trying to debate foreign policy, rather than two grown men trying to simulate that.
    It was mildly entertaining in a freak show kind of way. Part 2 tonight. He did say that a lot of people are going to be very happy about whether he was going for the Republican nomination again. Of course that would be the case both ways.

    He apparently gave Merkel a large white napkin to use as a surrender flag at a dinner when she was insisting on proceeding with Nordstream 2. I think, on reflection, you are being a bit unfair on Primary School kids.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    HYUFD said:

    First poll for the June French legislative elections has En Marche down 8% from the 32% it got in 2017 in the first round to 24%. However it is still just ahead of RN on 23%.

    Melenchon's LFI is 3rd on 19% with Les Republicains tied with the Greens on 8%

    https://twitter.com/rclmt/status/1518627443019501569?s=20&t=Eeu3ZOU0G623GQXoAgF4Sg

    Seat projections give the Macroin bloc another overall majority. I can just about understand the attractions of the two rounds for a presidential election. It makes no sense at all for the Assembly ones.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    edited April 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.
    Yes we are atop those sunlit uplands toasting Brexit as that great success story NOT.
    PS: easy to talk absolute urine from far away with your imaginary view of good old blighty.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    On the subject of the article, a few points:

    1) The poll is self selecting from a self selecting group

    2) The rapid rises, declines and falls is overwhelming evidence that the group is a weather vane and not a compass

    3) The key group is Tory MPs, who narrow the field down to two.

    4) Their recent history in this is mixed. They were forced by unique events into having Boris; they committed a collective disaster in T May; Cameron left at the very moment he had to stay, with no succession planning; of the ones before the less said the better.

    5) This time they will look beyond the superficial to longer term reliability, and will notice that polling is returning to the centre, as is politics

    6) No current minister stands a chance. All, however decent (Wallace) are dangerous choices. Look at Rishi

    7) The field will narrow to two moderates, not currently ministers. Unless the Tory party continues its current nervous breakdown.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    That's completely unfair. Every time I go on a plane there is someone who wants to explain that in the event of a crash they will be carefully looking after my body parts, here, there and way over there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    algarkirk said:

    On the subject of the article, a few points:

    1) The poll is self selecting from a self selecting group

    2) The rapid rises, declines and falls is overwhelming evidence that the group is a weather vane and not a compass

    3) The key group is Tory MPs, who narrow the field down to two.

    4) Their recent history in this is mixed. They were forced by unique events into having Boris; they committed a collective disaster in T May; Cameron left at the very moment he had to stay, with no succession planning; of the ones before the less said the better.

    5) This time they will look beyond the superficial to longer term reliability, and will notice that polling is returning to the centre, as is politics

    6) No current minister stands a chance. All, however decent (Wallace) are dangerous choices. Look at Rishi

    7) The field will narrow to two moderates, not currently ministers. Unless the Tory party continues its current nervous breakdown.

    A minister will be there and a right candidate
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.
    Yes we are atop those sunlit uplands toasting Brexit as that great success story NOT.]
    All I’m saying, is that there’s two sides to every story. Too many people appear to enjoy reveling in trying to twist every data point as bad news.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715
    Morning all,

    Bleak news about Lavrov's latest statement. The whole regime has gone mad. They seem determined to escalate this and drag us in. We will be at war by the end of summer I fear.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Sandpit said:

    It seems to be really hard to use Amazon shopping now without inadvertently signing up to Prime.

    You have to concentrate on hitting the right (tiny and non-highlighted) button every time.

    Yep, it’s as bad as not turning on 2FA with Apple - requires careful thought to find the right button.
    Not for the seasoned shopper - I go to the left for 'no Gracias ' then onto next page for free delivery if you wait a day and use the hub locker!
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    One wonders re: Elon Musk's motives re: the Twit-sphere? Pure altruism seems unlikely.

    He wanted to own the libs.
    $44BN to own the libs. Hope it’s worth it.
    As recently as 2020 he was 'only' worth less than $40bn according to wiki. Not sure what the tipping point was which caused his wealth to shoot up 4x in a year.
    Probably the value of Tesla stock as it’s done pretty well since 2020.
    Yes, but what drove the sudden rise?
    $5bn operating profit last quarter and a dizzying growth rate. People don't buy EVs, they buy Teslas. Case in point, now that our move to Switzerland is close to being canned (praise be to whoever or whatever higher power convinced my wife) we've begun looking for a car, the Model X is at the top of the shopping list.
    When my Fiesta got rescued from the end of a Highland landrover track after being slightly on fire, the man who picked me up desperately urged me never to buy a Tesla.

    He seemed to make most of his living picking them up from the NC500.
    Because they're unreliable, or because everyone's surprised that the north of Scotland isn't a massive hotbed of electric charging points?
    Apparently the "important stuff" is fine but everything else breaks and has the car has to make its way to dealership to get fixed.

    There are charging points at every overpriced b&b you can throw your wallet at up here. Even ones in the Hebrides.
    On pb they still think everyone North of Glasgow runs about in kilts and use horses for transport
    There were even two Tesla's charging up at the point of Ardnamurchan last weekend.

    I think all the chat about better public transport in the Highlands is a waste of time. Cars are King, and we just need the government to focus on getting mass production of cheap electric ones running as quickly as possible.

    The charges for parking at work are deeply unfair on people living outwith the central belt, particularly as they are the ones least likely to be able to WFH and are already hammered by fuel prices.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    I can see the argument for masking in ships when you are in and out - though I instinctively feel it is disproportionate to the risk faced. But on a three hour flight, presumably you either get it or you don't. Masking surely doesn't help.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Borrowing figures for March are out:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/dzls/pusf

    Here are the March figures. They will be revised (Feb 2022 was revised down £2.5 billion in today's release), but March 2022 is currently £4.6 billion above the March 2009 figure.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Nigelb said:

    @ydoethur would have aced the Victorian civil service exams...
    https://mobile.twitter.com/dave_clay/status/1518456202639851520
    Would you have passed the exam to become a Foreign Office clerk in 1876?

    Here’s the Constitutional History of England paper.

    You have three hours.

    But now you have the Twitter alternative paper where you get 45 seconds.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    DavidL said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    That's completely unfair. Every time I go on a plane there is someone who wants to explain that in the event of a crash they will be carefully looking after my body parts, here, there and way over there.
    Bite down hard on your arm rest to preserve your dental record.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.

    How does less exporting help the balance of payments deficit?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    Still meant that airborne bugs went "Yippeeeeee!"......
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Last night's Navalny program (BBC2) was gripping. Not so much the revelations, though the extent of cooperation with Bellincat surprised me, but the sheer chutzpah and self-confidence of Navally and crew.
    If Putin hasn't snuffed him out before his own departure, there's a real hero for a candidate as Russian leader.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.

    How does less exporting help the balance of payments deficit?

    Because there’s been a lot less importing, than there’s been less exporting.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    Was once on a school coach trip in Italy and the air con spread some sort of horrendous disease to 55 people. Grim.
  • Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/26/no-evidence-sustained-hit-uk-exports-eu-since-brexit-trade-deal/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/26/no-evidence-sustained-hit-uk-exports-eu-since-brexit-trade-deal/
    🚨🚨🇪🇺🇬🇧🚨🚨NEW research by @thom_sampson et al. of LSE shows #Brexit triggered "steep decline"in the number of trading relationships Britain has with the bloc -- with small biz hit hardest - my @ft latest. Stay with me for links and charts. /1

    https://www.ft.com/content/b0860ee6-e06e-4fc4-bd87-d56dcc7ee946

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1518821911014387712
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    tlg86 said:

    Borrowing figures for March are out:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/dzls/pusf

    Here are the March figures. They will be revised (Feb 2022 was revised down £2.5 billion in today's release), but March 2022 is currently £4.6 billion above the March 2009 figure.


    The BBC are, for now, giving it a positive spin: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61226277

    Borrowing is less than half of what it was last year as pandemic spending unwinds.

    These are still terrible numbers though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Interesting article on (the very significant) Dutch weapons supplies to Ukraine.
    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/beyond-call-dutch-arms-deliveries-to.html?m=1

    What I hadn't appreciated is how much decommissioned kit NATO members have hung onto and kept in good order (massively better than Russia's reserves, I think) with the hope of selling it on.
    It's recent enough to be very useful in the current conflict, but of very little commercial value, and quite quickly available for combat use.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    edited April 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.

    How does less exporting help the balance of payments deficit?

    Because there’s been a lot less importing, than there’s been less exporting.

    That doesn't answer the question. Exporting less does not have a positive effect on the balance of payments deficit. What you may mean is that less exporting doesn't matter if it is replaced by more import substitution. But is there any actual evidence of that? What we do know is that, overall, UK export performance is now comparatively poor:

    https://www.ft.com/content/021c629d-5853-4111-9600-ab5f0eb65a35
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    If you believe Putin is mad enough to use nukes now, why do you believe he'd suddenly become sane and not threaten to use them after he gets what he wants, and Russia is still a sh*thole and not the world leader it is in his head? Especially as the threat just worked?

    It is little to do with 'standing up to a bully'; it is trying to staunch the threat whilst we can.
    Again, metaphors are not your friend. You can't "staunch" a Sarmat ICBM.

    And I come back to my Piranha brothers point. Even the criminally violent tend to make and stick to arbitrary rules. There is no reason for an insane Putin to even recognise the existence of NATO, but it seems he does.
    And you cannot stop Putin demanding more if we cravenly cave in to his evil.

    Then why is he and his regime threatening NATO states, and saying they should be under Russia's sphere of influence? he may 'recognise' the existence of NATO; that does not mean the NATO he envisages is the NATO we have at the moment.
    More metaphors. There is no "trying to staunch the threat while we still can" as if he were building up an empire which will one day be big enough to threaten us. He already has Sarmat.

    Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere and there seems to be a consensus that the line is NATO countries. I wouldn't be comfortable doing less than we are doing but it is already an ultra high risk strategy and I don't wanna do any more.

    Let us not forget russia nuking its own satellite last November. I wonder why it did that. There's a non zero chance Armageddon is already scripted in some detail: the timetable for Sarmat coming online must have been known for years, and I do wonder whether it dictated the timetable for Ukraine.
    Did anyone else watch Trump on TalkTV with Peirs Morgan last night? He claimed he would ban the "N word" in any discussions with Russia and repeatedly claimed that the threat to Russia was far, far more powerful than anything coming the other way. Of course there is the problem that he is as mad as a box of frogs.
    No.
    I'd prefer to watch real primary school kids trying to debate foreign policy, rather than two grown men trying to simulate that.
    It was mildly entertaining in a freak show kind of way. Part 2 tonight. He did say that a lot of people are going to be very happy about whether he was going for the Republican nomination again. Of course that would be the case both ways.

    He apparently gave Merkel a large white napkin to use as a surrender flag at a dinner when she was insisting on proceeding with Nordstream 2. I think, on reflection, you are being a bit unfair on Primary School kids.
    Indeed. And one of them will be POTUS in 2024.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    There’s a sad story behind each individual statistic here of a small company - possible a future giant - hobbled by the red tape and costs they now face trading with our biggest market. Or they are simply giving up https://twitter.com/gilesyb/status/1518843868321837056
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    Cookie said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    I can see the argument for masking in ships when you are in and out - though I instinctively feel it is disproportionate to the risk faced. But on a three hour flight, presumably you either get it or you don't. Masking surely doesn't help.
    That's what I thought, but I guess it might depend on the quality of your mask.

    My wife and I went to London for a week over Easter. She's still very worried about Covid - on the basis of long Covid risks - so I agreed to wear masks on public transport/inside shops for the benefit of her feelings. We spent more than four hours in each direction on trains to/from Kings Cross, and did quite a bit of taking buses, trains, etc, around the city to visit family and enjoy the fine weather.

    I was fairly confident we'd both end up catching Covid, and then hopefully we'd both recover from it and my wife would find that her fears were unfounded. Somehow, though, well-fitted use of FFP2 masks, and possibly a dose of fortune, meant that neither of us have subsequently tested positive.

    So I think I have a couple more months of caution to go, until the big family wedding in June, when we surely won't be able to escape it any longer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    geoffw said:

    Last night's Navalny program (BBC2) was gripping. Not so much the revelations, though the extent of cooperation with Bellincat surprised me, but the sheer chutzpah and self-confidence of Navally and crew.
    If Putin hasn't snuffed him out before his own departure, there's a real hero for a candidate as Russian leader.

    I don't know much about Navalny; what are his geopolitical views, and how does he view Russia's place in the world?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    If you believe Putin is mad enough to use nukes now, why do you believe he'd suddenly become sane and not threaten to use them after he gets what he wants, and Russia is still a sh*thole and not the world leader it is in his head? Especially as the threat just worked?

    It is little to do with 'standing up to a bully'; it is trying to staunch the threat whilst we can.
    Again, metaphors are not your friend. You can't "staunch" a Sarmat ICBM.

    And I come back to my Piranha brothers point. Even the criminally violent tend to make and stick to arbitrary rules. There is no reason for an insane Putin to even recognise the existence of NATO, but it seems he does.
    And you cannot stop Putin demanding more if we cravenly cave in to his evil.

    Then why is he and his regime threatening NATO states, and saying they should be under Russia's sphere of influence? he may 'recognise' the existence of NATO; that does not mean the NATO he envisages is the NATO we have at the moment.
    More metaphors. There is no "trying to staunch the threat while we still can" as if he were building up an empire which will one day be big enough to threaten us. He already has Sarmat.

    Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere and there seems to be a consensus that the line is NATO countries. I wouldn't be comfortable doing less than we are doing but it is already an ultra high risk strategy and I don't wanna do any more.

    Let us not forget russia nuking its own satellite last November. I wonder why it did that. There's a non zero chance Armageddon is already scripted in some detail: the timetable for Sarmat coming online must have been known for years, and I do wonder whether it dictated the timetable for Ukraine.
    Did anyone else watch Trump on TalkTV with Peirs Morgan last night? He claimed he would ban the "N word" in any discussions with Russia and repeatedly claimed that the threat to Russia was far, far more powerful than anything coming the other way. Of course there is the problem that he is as mad as a box of frogs.
    No.
    I'd prefer to watch real primary school kids trying to debate foreign policy, rather than two grown men trying to simulate that.
    It was mildly entertaining in a freak show kind of way. Part 2 tonight. He did say that a lot of people are going to be very happy about whether he was going for the Republican nomination again. Of course that would be the case both ways.

    He apparently gave Merkel a large white napkin to use as a surrender flag at a dinner when she was insisting on proceeding with Nordstream 2. I think, on reflection, you are being a bit unfair on Primary School kids.
    Indeed. And one of them will be POTUS in 2024.
    I don't think Peirs is eligible, thankfully.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    If you believe Putin is mad enough to use nukes now, why do you believe he'd suddenly become sane and not threaten to use them after he gets what he wants, and Russia is still a sh*thole and not the world leader it is in his head? Especially as the threat just worked?

    It is little to do with 'standing up to a bully'; it is trying to staunch the threat whilst we can.
    Again, metaphors are not your friend. You can't "staunch" a Sarmat ICBM.

    And I come back to my Piranha brothers point. Even the criminally violent tend to make and stick to arbitrary rules. There is no reason for an insane Putin to even recognise the existence of NATO, but it seems he does.
    And you cannot stop Putin demanding more if we cravenly cave in to his evil.

    Then why is he and his regime threatening NATO states, and saying they should be under Russia's sphere of influence? he may 'recognise' the existence of NATO; that does not mean the NATO he envisages is the NATO we have at the moment.
    More metaphors. There is no "trying to staunch the threat while we still can" as if he were building up an empire which will one day be big enough to threaten us. He already has Sarmat.

    Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere and there seems to be a consensus that the line is NATO countries. I wouldn't be comfortable doing less than we are doing but it is already an ultra high risk strategy and I don't wanna do any more.

    Let us not forget russia nuking its own satellite last November. I wonder why it did that. There's a non zero chance Armageddon is already scripted in some detail: the timetable for Sarmat coming online must have been known for years, and I do wonder whether it dictated the timetable for Ukraine.
    It did not 'nuke' its own satellite; it performed an ASAT test that was non-nuclear.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Morning all,

    Bleak news about Lavrov's latest statement. The whole regime has gone mad. They seem determined to escalate this and drag us in. We will be at war by the end of summer I fear.

    Most if it is just a regurgitation of what they've been saying for a while.
    From the start their line has been they have the right to prosecute what is a war of aggression, and that any aid to the victim is a provocation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit caused U.K. imports from the EU to collapse and led many small British businesses to give up exporting to the EU altogether, according to a new LSE study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/brexit-caused-a-major-shock-to-u-k-trade-patterns-study-says?sref=yMmXm5Iy via @markets @PhilAldrick

    Alternatively, Brexit has led to a significantly improved balance of payments deficit (remember when this used to be headline news?) and an increase in import substitution.
    Yes we are atop those sunlit uplands toasting Brexit as that great success story NOT.]
    All I’m saying, is that there’s two sides to every story. Too many people appear to enjoy reveling in trying to twist every data point as bad news.
    From your lofty viewpoint at the top of the Burj Khalifa Brexit does indeed look fine today.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215
    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    Planes are pretty low risk Covid-wise. Hepa filters now;

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c2b6fdb-d2dd-428d-8ec2-7d8b99e8da1f
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Next time we go to Barcelona we are going by train. You can do it from London in a day apparently:

    https://www.seat61.com/Spain.htm#london-to-barcelona-by-train
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    One wonders re: Elon Musk's motives re: the Twit-sphere? Pure altruism seems unlikely.

    He wanted to own the libs.
    $44BN to own the libs. Hope it’s worth it.
    As recently as 2020 he was 'only' worth less than $40bn according to wiki. Not sure what the tipping point was which caused his wealth to shoot up 4x in a year.
    Probably the value of Tesla stock as it’s done pretty well since 2020.
    Yes, but what drove the sudden rise?
    $5bn operating profit last quarter and a dizzying growth rate. People don't buy EVs, they buy Teslas. Case in point, now that our move to Switzerland is close to being canned (praise be to whoever or whatever higher power convinced my wife) we've begun looking for a car, the Model X is at the top of the shopping list.
    When my Fiesta got rescued from the end of a Highland landrover track after being slightly on fire, the man who picked me up desperately urged me never to buy a Tesla.

    He seemed to make most of his living picking them up from the NC500.
    Because they're unreliable, or because everyone's surprised that the north of Scotland isn't a massive hotbed of electric charging points?
    Apparently the "important stuff" is fine but everything else breaks and has the car has to make its way to dealership to get fixed.

    There are charging points at every overpriced b&b you can throw your wallet at up here. Even ones in the Hebrides.
    On pb they still think everyone North of Glasgow runs about in kilts and use horses for transport
    There were even two Tesla's charging up at the point of Ardnamurchan last weekend.

    I think all the chat about better public transport in the Highlands is a waste of time. Cars are King, and we just need the government to focus on getting mass production of cheap electric ones running as quickly as possible.

    The charges for parking at work are deeply unfair on people living outwith the central belt, particularly as they are the ones least likely to be able to WFH and are already hammered by fuel prices.
    One of the things that surprised me during my walk around Scotland 20 years ago was how available the Internet was. The Scottish government spent a lot of money creating links to settlements, and having public access points in places like surgeries and libraries. It was very useful to me, and I think money well spent. I could get reasonable (for the time) Internet access even in tiny little hamlets in the middle of nowhere.

    I wonder if they've extended that with public WiFi?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Well, I can barely remember the journey out. Though that might have something to do with the amount of alcohol I’ve consumed in the meantime!
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 882
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    One wonders re: Elon Musk's motives re: the Twit-sphere? Pure altruism seems unlikely.

    He wanted to own the libs.
    $44BN to own the libs. Hope it’s worth it.
    As recently as 2020 he was 'only' worth less than $40bn according to wiki. Not sure what the tipping point was which caused his wealth to shoot up 4x in a year.
    Probably the value of Tesla stock as it’s done pretty well since 2020.
    Yes, but what drove the sudden rise?
    $5bn operating profit last quarter and a dizzying growth rate. People don't buy EVs, they buy Teslas. Case in point, now that our move to Switzerland is close to being canned (praise be to whoever or whatever higher power convinced my wife) we've begun looking for a car, the Model X is at the top of the shopping list.
    When my Fiesta got rescued from the end of a Highland landrover track after being slightly on fire, the man who picked me up desperately urged me never to buy a Tesla.

    He seemed to make most of his living picking them up from the NC500.
    Because they're unreliable, or because everyone's surprised that the north of Scotland isn't a massive hotbed of electric charging points?
    Apparently the "important stuff" is fine but everything else breaks and has the car has to make its way to dealership to get fixed.

    There are charging points at every overpriced b&b you can throw your wallet at up here. Even ones in the Hebrides.
    On pb they still think everyone North of Glasgow runs about in kilts and use horses for transport
    There were even two Tesla's charging up at the point of Ardnamurchan last weekend.

    I think all the chat about better public transport in the Highlands is a waste of time. Cars are King, and we just need the government to focus on getting mass production of cheap electric ones running as quickly as possible.

    The charges for parking at work are deeply unfair on people living outwith the central belt, particularly as they are the ones least likely to be able to WFH and are already hammered by fuel prices.
    I think there could be a case made for some kind of Inverness metro area, including Dingwall, the Black Isle and out to Nairn, but in reality that would probably be just more frequent busses and additional routes.

    Outside of Inverness, I reckon some light rail could be useful to link Inverness to the West Coast, but, while I'm sure such a project would bring economic benefits, the cost would surely be eye watering.

    Beyond that, though, personal transport is likely to be king forever. When I first lived there, I didn't leave Inverness (apart from trips down south on the train) for about 4 years until I got a car.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    geoffw said:

    Last night's Navalny program (BBC2) was gripping. Not so much the revelations, though the extent of cooperation with Bellincat surprised me, but the sheer chutzpah and self-confidence of Navally and crew.
    If Putin hasn't snuffed him out before his own departure, there's a real hero for a candidate as Russian leader.

    I don't know much about Navalny; what are his geopolitical views, and how does he view Russia's place in the world?
    Navalny has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated; sort of a Russian Chirac. He was definitely more stridently Russian nationalist than Putin at one point. When I lived in Russia in the late noughties he was head of the Russian National Liberation Movement and was greatly attached to making videos where he pretended to shoot muslims.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Next time we go to Barcelona we are going by train. You can do it from London in a day apparently:

    https://www.seat61.com/Spain.htm#london-to-barcelona-by-train
    Good plan, when I had a year as a visiting fellow at humboldt in Berlin I used to alternate Bristol flights with taking the train.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    Unfortunately, I don't see any route to multilateral nuclear disarmament that isn't a consequence of autocracies becoming democracies first. And that's a very big task that we can't do much to accelerate. I agree with everything else you write though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Next time we go to Barcelona we are going by train. You can do it from London in a day apparently:

    https://www.seat61.com/Spain.htm#london-to-barcelona-by-train
    I’ve done that trip before, way easier than driving and more relaxing than airports. Change Lille and Lyon, to avoid lugging luggage across Paris. Book ahead, and 1st class is not much more expensive than standard class.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715
    Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Next time we go to Barcelona we are going by train. You can do it from London in a day apparently:

    https://www.seat61.com/Spain.htm#london-to-barcelona-by-train
    I’ve done that trip before, way easier than driving and more relaxing than airports. Change Lille and Lyon, to avoid lugging luggage across Paris. Book ahead, and 1st class is not much more expensive than standard class.
    I did it overnight once from Paris to Madrid. Years ago, so don't know whether they still run that service.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    geoffw said:

    Last night's Navalny program (BBC2) was gripping. Not so much the revelations, though the extent of cooperation with Bellincat surprised me, but the sheer chutzpah and self-confidence of Navally and crew.
    If Putin hasn't snuffed him out before his own departure, there's a real hero for a candidate as Russian leader.

    I don't know much about Navalny; what are his geopolitical views, and how does he view Russia's place in the world?
    Human rights, anti corruption, Russo-centric foreign policy strangely not a million miles from Putin.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    A third of passengers? They had never accounted for flying in eastern Europe/the Middle East!

    I remember flying back from Istanbul to London. Turkish Airlines. I asked for a non-smoking seat. There were two rows - the back two. Even as we took off and before the non-smoking signs were turned off, a wall of smoke billowed up in the front rows and proceeded to engulf the two non-smoking rows. Not so much passive smoking as really aggressive!

    A little trip down nostalgia lane. Just a few decades back. You have to make a conscious effort to remember how horrible flying used to be!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    All wars end in some kind of deal. Even WWII in europe ended with Jodl signing an unconditional surrender agreement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The fact that Putin's Russia won't "stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want", is exactly why Sweden and Finland are looking to join NATO.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:



    You back home?

    Not quite.. my flight ended up arriving in Bristol eight hours late. Two and a half of those were spent in the plane on the ground in Girona. When they finally came round with their “food” trolley, and eventually got to me in the middle of the plane, the only option available was microwaved pizza and chips in a box. I declined. Even later they came around with the drinks trolley. I asked for a red wine. The lady gave me the mini seven quid bottle and asked “Do you want a glass?”. Do people drink those straight from the bottle?! I was less than halfway through it when we started our descent.

    At Bristol I found a Ryanair worker and she suggested I get a hotel room and try to claim the cost back. At 1:30am I didn’t really fancy trying to find a hotel room, nor paying for one with only the chance of a probably partial rebate from Ryanair. So I did what I’d threatened in one of my messages to them from Girona when this prospect began to look possible, and went for a performative lie down on their luggage conveyor belt at the empty check in desk. This soon alerted some attention, but only from airport security. Luckily airport security in this case was a very nice (blue haired) lady, who said I had to get off the conveyor belt as I might break the scale. I feigned offence and said “I’ll have you know I lost over half a stone on holiday!”

    We had a chat about how awful Ryanair is, and she suggested that if I was going to wait at the airport until the morning I’d be more comfortable in the bus waiting room as it at least had a carpet. So I grabbed a couple of cans G&T from the thankfully still open snack bar, and went for a rather uncomfortable four hour wait there.

    I got the 5:30 bus to Temple Meads, two trains, and I’m now waiting for the last bus back. It’s been an interesting journey..

    Interesting indeed

    My main problem with travel is this, that no matter how long and how Interesting the actual holiday I retain an insanely detailed real-time mental record of every second of the journeys out and back, and half an hour worth of vague impressions of the time in between. I hope you are not the same
    Next time we go to Barcelona we are going by train. You can do it from London in a day apparently:

    https://www.seat61.com/Spain.htm#london-to-barcelona-by-train
    I’ve done that trip before, way easier than driving and more relaxing than airports. Change Lille and Lyon, to avoid lugging luggage across Paris. Book ahead, and 1st class is not much more expensive than standard class.
    Great tips there, @Sandpit
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    Unfortunately, I don't see any route to multilateral nuclear disarmament that isn't a consequence of autocracies becoming democracies first. And that's a very big task that we can't do much to accelerate. I agree with everything else you write though.
    After what has happened to Ukraine, every state larger than Pitcairn is thinking that some nukes would nice to have.

    And probably the Pitcairn Islanders are wondering if.....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    A third of passengers? They had never accounted for flying in eastern Europe/the Middle East!

    I remember flying back from Istanbul to London. Turkish Airlines. I asked for a non-smoking seat. There were two rows - the back two. Even as we took off and before the non-smoking signs were turned off, a wall of smoke billowed up in the front rows and proceeded to engulf the two non-smoking rows. Not so much passive smoking as really aggressive!

    A little trip down nostalgia lane. Just a few decades back. You have to make a conscious effort to remember how horrible flying used to be!
    I was always astonished how quickly they were turned off, almost with wheels still on tarmac
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715
    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    Last night's Navalny program (BBC2) was gripping. Not so much the revelations, though the extent of cooperation with Bellincat surprised me, but the sheer chutzpah and self-confidence of Navally and crew.
    If Putin hasn't snuffed him out before his own departure, there's a real hero for a candidate as Russian leader.

    I don't know much about Navalny; what are his geopolitical views, and how does he view Russia's place in the world?
    Navalny has occupied every part of the political spectrum as convenience has dictated; sort of a Russian Chirac. He was definitely more stridently Russian nationalist than Putin at one point. When I lived in Russia in the late noughties he was head of the Russian National Liberation Movement and was greatly attached to making videos where he pretended to shoot muslims.
    Navalny has remained a Russian nationalist throughout, hasn't he ?
    It's just that his line is now that nationalism entails building a stronger Russia within its current borders,.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The fact that Putin's Russia won't "stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want", is exactly why Sweden and Finland are looking to join NATO.
    Putin's tactics work on the "mad beats bad" principle, namely that it is better to be seen as deranged, as your opponents don't know what the hell you will do, than bad, where they can predict your actions. Lavrov's comments fit into that strategy, namely act as though you are mad whereas, in fact, you are just bad.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    A third of passengers? They had never accounted for flying in eastern Europe/the Middle East!

    I remember flying back from Istanbul to London. Turkish Airlines. I asked for a non-smoking seat. There were two rows - the back two. Even as we took off and before the non-smoking signs were turned off, a wall of smoke billowed up in the front rows and proceeded to engulf the two non-smoking rows. Not so much passive smoking as really aggressive!

    A little trip down nostalgia lane. Just a few decades back. You have to make a conscious effort to remember how horrible flying used to be!
    I was always astonished how quickly they were turned off, almost with wheels still on tarmac
    Airline run (and have run on) fuel costs for many many years. There was a chap who made a fortune with a lighter food trolley, IIRC - this saved x litres of fuel per flight, which added up into serious money. So everyone bought his design.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    Vladimir Putin has lost interest in diplomatic efforts to end his war with Ukraine and instead appears set on seizing as much Ukrainian territory as possible
    https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1518608161019682817

    I don't disagree - but while territory is being fought over in the east, there's no real prospect of any deal (unless we make Ukraine surrender, which isn't going to happen).

    Until Putin starts losing some of the ground he's taken, there's no prospect of getting him to the table, either.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    The irrational (or semi-irrational) opponent is a much studied part of game theory and deterrence theory. See Herman Kahn, Bernard Brodie and others
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    One wonders re: Elon Musk's motives re: the Twit-sphere? Pure altruism seems unlikely.

    He wanted to own the libs.
    $44BN to own the libs. Hope it’s worth it.
    As recently as 2020 he was 'only' worth less than $40bn according to wiki. Not sure what the tipping point was which caused his wealth to shoot up 4x in a year.
    Probably the value of Tesla stock as it’s done pretty well since 2020.
    Yes, but what drove the sudden rise?
    $5bn operating profit last quarter and a dizzying growth rate. People don't buy EVs, they buy Teslas. Case in point, now that our move to Switzerland is close to being canned (praise be to whoever or whatever higher power convinced my wife) we've begun looking for a car, the Model X is at the top of the shopping list.
    You really don’t want a Model X - unless you see sh!tty build quality, huge panel gaps and unreliability of the minor electrics as positives because you’re part of the great Tesla cult.

    Get a Taycan instead, or the new Merc EQS.
    The Model X is pointlessly vast - a real USDM car. Everyone knows about the shit non-powertrain quality going in. That's the compromise people accept for the Telsa charging network. I think a 3LR is the sweet spot in the Tesla range for the UK.

    The Taycan is a great car and relatively good value on a lease due its high residuals but it's l-o-w, small inside and doesn't have great visibility. That was Mrs DA's primary complaints about hers. It's probably the best sporty electric car at the moment.

    You will find no more fervent Porsche ultra than me but even I would be forced to admit the platform probably suits the Audi brand better in the e-tron GT.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    The irrational (or semi-irrational) opponent is a much studied part of game theory and deterrence theory. See Herman Kahn, Bernard Brodie and others
    TLDR = ??
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Cookie said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    I can see the argument for masking in ships when you are in and out - though I instinctively feel it is disproportionate to the risk faced. But on a three hour flight, presumably you either get it or you don't. Masking surely doesn't help.
    We're seriously considering a flight to Thailand at Christmas. The thought of masks all the way is somewhat off-putting, but only somewhat.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    Planes are pretty low risk Covid-wise. Hepa filters now;

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c2b6fdb-d2dd-428d-8ec2-7d8b99e8da1f
    I saw an article somewhere that said during flight, due to the filtration, planes are pretty good, but take off and landing (and I guess getting on and off) the air circulation isn't running, so the high risk times are not during the flight but at the start and end.

    In the UK the ONS will be interesting this week. Recorded cases on the dashboard have collapsed, partly because of the end of free testing, but not just that. The anecdotes off 'everyone I know has got covid' have slowed down and crucially the admissions to hospital are falling well now. I think we have are 25% fewer 'covid' patients in hospital now than two weeks ago. All positive signs as we get into summer.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The government and people of Russia believe, with 100% confidence, that they will come out of the other end of a nuclear exchange in far better shape than NATO. This is a recurrent theme on Russian TV.

    It's a vast and sparsely populated country with shit infrastructure and people who are used to roughing it anyway.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    All wars end in some kind of deal. Even WWII in europe ended with Jodl signing an unconditional surrender agreement.
    Fighting in Prague continued until the 11th May.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited April 2022

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    The irrational (or semi-irrational) opponent is a much studied part of game theory and deterrence theory. See Herman Kahn, Bernard Brodie and others
    I understand that Khruschev quite falsely claimed that his missiles were set up in such a way that he could not prevent a retaliatory strike even if he wanted to, computer would say no, to head off the argument that a rational actor who had sustained a first strike would think, what's the use retaliating

    It is probably true that Putin is more comfortable with Biden than Trump in the White House, for this sort of reason
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    Planes are pretty low risk Covid-wise. Hepa filters now;

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c2b6fdb-d2dd-428d-8ec2-7d8b99e8da1f
    I saw an article somewhere that said during flight, due to the filtration, planes are pretty good, but take off and landing (and I guess getting on and off) the air circulation isn't running, so the high risk times are not during the flight but at the start and end.

    In the UK the ONS will be interesting this week. Recorded cases on the dashboard have collapsed, partly because of the end of free testing, but not just that. The anecdotes off 'everyone I know has got covid' have slowed down and crucially the admissions to hospital are falling well now. I think we have are 25% fewer 'covid' patients in hospital now than two weeks ago. All positive signs as we get into summer.
    I'm not sure that the falling off of anecdotes isn't more to the ubiquity of covid nowadays than to any reduction in incidence.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    Planes are pretty low risk Covid-wise. Hepa filters now;

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c2b6fdb-d2dd-428d-8ec2-7d8b99e8da1f
    I saw an article somewhere that said during flight, due to the filtration, planes are pretty good, but take off and landing (and I guess getting on and off) the air circulation isn't running, so the high risk times are not during the flight but at the start and end.

    In the UK the ONS will be interesting this week. Recorded cases on the dashboard have collapsed, partly because of the end of free testing, but not just that. The anecdotes off 'everyone I know has got covid' have slowed down and crucially the admissions to hospital are falling well now. I think we have are 25% fewer 'covid' patients in hospital now than two weeks ago. All positive signs as we get into summer.
    I'm not sure that the falling off of anecdotes isn't more to the ubiquity of covid nowadays than to any reduction in incidence.
    Could be, although I like to use the media as a bellwether. Certainly radio presenters with kids of school age have stopped majoring on it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited April 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The government and people of Russia believe, with 100% confidence, that they will come out of the other end of a nuclear exchange in far better shape than NATO. This is a recurrent theme on Russian TV.

    It's a vast and sparsely populated country with shit infrastructure and people who are used to roughing it anyway.
    Yes, that's a strong theme of

    https://reaction.life/wartime-putins-russia-has-become-a-madhouse-threatening-the-world

    I was hoping you were going to say it was unmitigated bollocks
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cookie said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    I can see the argument for masking in ships when you are in and out - though I instinctively feel it is disproportionate to the risk faced. But on a three hour flight, presumably you either get it or you don't. Masking surely doesn't help.
    We're seriously considering a flight to Thailand at Christmas. The thought of masks all the way is somewhat off-putting, but only somewhat.
    You can unmask to eat and drink, and it's amazing how long you can spin out a drink for.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    All wars end in some kind of deal. Even WWII in europe ended with Jodl signing an unconditional surrender agreement.
    Fighting in Prague continued until the 11th May.
    Did you have to czech the date?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    DavidL said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    That's completely unfair. Every time I go on a plane there is someone who wants to explain that in the event of a crash they will be carefully looking after my body parts, here, there and way over there.
    Dave Allen said all that needs saying on airlines - https://youtu.be/yBca1ixoEbg
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    The irrational (or semi-irrational) opponent is a much studied part of game theory and deterrence theory. See Herman Kahn, Bernard Brodie and others
    TLDR = ??
    Don't actually be mad, but [sometimes] act it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    I can see the argument for masking in ships when you are in and out - though I instinctively feel it is disproportionate to the risk faced. But on a three hour flight, presumably you either get it or you don't. Masking surely doesn't help.
    We're seriously considering a flight to Thailand at Christmas. The thought of masks all the way is somewhat off-putting, but only somewhat.
    You can unmask to eat and drink, and it's amazing how long you can spin out a drink for.
    Good thought!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    All wars end in some kind of deal. Even WWII in europe ended with Jodl signing an unconditional surrender agreement.
    Fighting in Prague continued until the 11th May.
    Did you have to czech the date?
    I looked but the Czech's had cancelled....
  • Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The government and people of Russia believe, with 100% confidence, that they will come out of the other end of a nuclear exchange in far better shape than NATO. This is a recurrent theme on Russian TV.

    It's a vast and sparsely populated country with shit infrastructure and people who are used to roughing it anyway.
    Oh I'm sure that Putin, his cronies and oligarchs with their luxurious palaces and yachts are completely used to roughing it (!)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,149

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    IIRC Putin declared that the *last* deal no longer applied 'because the situation has changed'. In 2014.

    I wonder what leadership would take over post-Putin?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Breaking: Germany to deliver “Gepard” anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine.

    According to several German media reports, the government has finally approved the delivery of such heavy weapons to Ukraine. The step will be officially announced at the Ukraine conference in Rammstein today.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1518846126144765952

    Note, the ammo is again Swiss, so there might be an attempt to veto, as with the Marder vehicles.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    True - although consider that Brezhnev in his latter years was a drunk, drug-addicted depressive, and Andropov and Chernenko were both, to all extents and purposes, dead for pretty much their entire term in office. I'm not sure the soviets in the 1976-1985 period had leadership which could be characterised as 'rational'. Though by all accounts we were uncomfortably close to nuclear armageddon at least once during that period.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    On 19 March 2021, I tweeted:

    "the OBR said three weeks ago that borrowing in 2021-2 would be £233.9bn. I think you could do better by taking the last reported month's data (a deficit of £14.2 billion for Feb) timesing it up by 12 and getting £170bn"

    Today's figures put it at £151bn, and likely to be revised down.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Nigelb said:

    Breaking: Germany to deliver “Gepard” anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine.

    According to several German media reports, the government has finally approved the delivery of such heavy weapons to Ukraine. The step will be officially announced at the Ukraine conference in Rammstein today.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1518846126144765952

    Note, the ammo is again Swiss, so there might be an attempt to veto, as with the Marder vehicles.

    Gepard has been out of service for a decade. Better hope the guys doing mothballing were good at their jobs....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    Utter codswallop.

    Instead of fighting the Battle of Britain, should the UK have been pressured to reach a "deal" with Nazi Germany in WWII? That's not a Godwin, that's the situation Ukraine are in right now.

    Russia needs to lose the war and Ukraine needs to win it. That means supporting Ukraine and pressuring Russia, not pressuring both of them.
    And if Hitler had nukes ?

    In any event, the realpolitik is that Russia will have to lose ground before they agree to negotiate.
    The case for carrying on with what we're doing is as much pragmatic as it is a moral one.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The government and people of Russia believe, with 100% confidence, that they will come out of the other end of a nuclear exchange in far better shape than NATO. This is a recurrent theme on Russian TV.

    It's a vast and sparsely populated country with shit infrastructure and people who are used to roughing it anyway.
    Oh I'm sure that Putin, his cronies and oligarchs with their luxurious palaces and yachts are completely used to roughing it (!)
    Not a very strong point, surely? Have you any idea how luxurious you can make a bunker, or anything else, when you have virtually unlimited wealth?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Cookie said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The Russian nuclear threat, to some degree, has to be faced down in the same way that the wider Russian threat is. The way it is being waved about as a solution to even quite modest NATO stances, the accession of long-democratic Sweden and Finland, for instance, shows that Russia wouldn't limit how they would try and push NATO further and further back with nuclear threats if they were seen to work, perhaps, over years, all the way to Plzen.

    There is no zero risk here and NATO should therefore, with all the due care and caution that war must always entail anyway, act freely in adopting an appropriate stance.

    The clarity was already there: Ukraine had a defence partnership but was not under article 5, and everything being done is pretty much consistent with that. In terms of the facts on the ground, in conventional terms, a Ukranian liberation of as many as possible of the captured lands under war, including pushing back Donbass, would suit.

    Whether opening up Crimea, heavily militarised no doubt, but not a current theatre of active fighting and whose people aren't under the local warlord type governance of Donbass, would be to the benefit of Crimean residents, is a tougher call. Much as I'd love to see genuine free choice for Crimeans, that may be one for longer term diplomatic pressure.

    What is clear though is that, if we get through this in one piece, and end up with a Russia we can deal with, disarmament of MAD type nuclear arsenals must be a much more aggressively pursued aim. We cannot tolerate the ability to threaten like this as a permanent reality of living on earth because, even if Putin does not cross the line, somebody, sometime, eventually will - the idea of deterrence will, ultimately, fail.

    MAD worked because the two regimes for want of a better word, USA and Soviet, were controlled by rational people. I'm not a game theorist or a MAD strategist but it looks like it doesn't work if one of the parties is controlled by a lunatic.

    In Jan 2025 both parties could be.
    True - although consider that Brezhnev in his latter years was a drunk, drug-addicted depressive, and Andropov and Chernenko were both, to all extents and purposes, dead for pretty much their entire term in office. I'm not sure the soviets in the 1976-1985 period had leadership which could be characterised as 'rational'. Though by all accounts we were uncomfortably close to nuclear armageddon at least once during that period.
    Russian relatives said that Chernenko was one of the best leaders during the slow fall of the Soviet Union. He was quiet, didn't make long boring speeches and was very unlikely to start a purge or something.

    Perhaps dead leaders are the way to go?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Western arms shipments to Ukraine mean Nato is "in essence engaged in war with Russia" and there is "considerable" risk of the conflict going nuclear

    This is now a settled theme from Russia,.

    Tbh I'm amazed they haven't said this from the outset, and it's part of the reason why I think we've being really disingenuous about the No Fly Zone. We have drawn our own line by saying that it's fine to supply tons of military equipment, intelligence and, even, special 'advisors' (SAS) to Ukraine but it's not fine to install a NFZ. 95% of people on here have gone along with this, often vociferously. They've told themselves that the one will help Ukraine but won't escalate it but the other would lead to WWIII and Armageddon.

    But it's cant and hypocrisy basically, isn't it? If we're going to support Ukraine, bloody well support Ukraine. We should have backed Zelensky's request and stood up to Putin.

    Just my opinion. Don't flame me.
    Not going to flame you, but consider this: all but the most psychopathic criminals retain a demented sense of justice, a point quite neatly illustrated by monty python's piranha brothers who nail someone's head to the floor "because he had transgressed the unwritten code." Putin's unwritten code includes no nfz.

    Or of course, he is bluffing and we only think it does. But don't fall into the narrative of Stand up to the bully, give Ivan a bloody nose and he will always cave in to true British grit. That is a school story and there's no nukes in schools.
    It's amazing how many people think this is fucking Michael Bay film and that Russia will back down if, in some as yet to be defined manner, Ukraine wins.

    There is going to have to be a deal sooner or later and the pressure should be on Ukraine and Russia to make it sooner.
    What 'pressure to do a deal' can we put on a Russia that is doing, and saying, what it is?

    And what makes you think they'll stick with the deal for a microsecond longer than it takes to get what they want?
    Again, even nutters have a sense of justice. You adhere to the unwritten code, you don't get your head nailed to the coffee table. Russia's sabre rattling is consistently if...then, else..., not, we are going to nuke you just for shits n giggles and because we can

    But OK you think a deal can't be done, so whats your alternative? Give Ivan a dam' good thrashing because then he'll back down, like bullies always do?
    The government and people of Russia believe, with 100% confidence, that they will come out of the other end of a nuclear exchange in far better shape than NATO. This is a recurrent theme on Russian TV.

    It's a vast and sparsely populated country with shit infrastructure and people who are used to roughing it anyway.
    Oh I'm sure that Putin, his cronies and oligarchs with their luxurious palaces and yachts are completely used to roughing it (!)
    Not a very strong point, surely? Have you any idea how luxurious you can make a bunker, or anything else, when you have virtually unlimited wealth?
    As much as I enjoy playing games in the Fallout series, no even virtually unlimited wealth I can't imagine will go very far in making a post-apocalyptic bunker anywhere comparable to your palaces etc pre-apocalypse.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    And before anyone asks, yes I wear a mask when flying. And will likely continue to do so for a while. Even before Covid it was clear that aircraft were great places to catch the lurgy.

    Some twenty-odd years back, the airline industry downgraded the filtering of air in planes. That may not have given Omicron a leg up, being so infectious. But it showed what the industry thought of protecting its passengers....
    To be fair, the previous level of filtering was predicated on a third of the passengers chain-smoking down the back, and used a lot of fuel to keep the pumps running.
    A third of passengers? They had never accounted for flying in eastern Europe/the Middle East!

    I remember flying back from Istanbul to London. Turkish Airlines. I asked for a non-smoking seat. There were two rows - the back two. Even as we took off and before the non-smoking signs were turned off, a wall of smoke billowed up in the front rows and proceeded to engulf the two non-smoking rows. Not so much passive smoking as really aggressive!

    A little trip down nostalgia lane. Just a few decades back. You have to make a conscious effort to remember how horrible flying used to be!
    IMO the best time to fly was the late ‘90s. The new 777 was the plane of choice, and there was a window of a few years between the smoking ban and the post-9/11 security nightmare.
    Pretty sure Gulf Air had smoking seats in 1999/2000. Remember being moved to the back rows!
This discussion has been closed.