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The UK political drama that’s topping the Netflix ratings – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 3 in General
The UK political drama that’s topping the Netflix ratings – politicalbetting.com

As I reported a couple of days ago I am self-isolating because I have contracted COVID. As a result I am watching a lot of TV and the one fortunate thing about this has been the timing which coincides with the launch of the Netflix series “Anatomy of a Scandal” based on Sarah Vaughan’s novel.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    At least one former Bullingdon member is unhappy at its portrayal,
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/stop-attacking-bullingdon-club/ (£££)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522
    edited April 21

    At least one former Bullingdon member is unhappy at its portrayal,
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/stop-attacking-bullingdon-club/ (£££)

    Ah. Perhaps I should have added "in the series Anatomy of a Scandal" as the reference to the Bullingdon Club is not shown in Vanilla's truncated version of OGH's header.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202

    At least one former Bullingdon member is unhappy at its portrayal,
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/stop-attacking-bullingdon-club/ (£££)

    Diddums.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Thanks so much for the recommendation Mike: it sounds brilliant and I'm going to watch it. I send you all my good wishes and really hope you feel better soon. Thank goodness for vaccines.

    Boris Johnson is the most corrupt politician ever to be prime minister of Britain. Starmer nailed him yesterday. I have this experience on impeccable authority. A friend of mine dared to criticise something Johnson proposed and she and her organisation were then vilified and slandered by him in an act of disgraceful, dishonest, revenge.

    The man is a shit.

    The one saving grace is that if his MPs continue not to do the honourable thing (he most certainly won't) then the voters will. The tories are increasing the chances of an outright Labour win at the next General Election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    This is, of course, exacerbated by the continuation of Russia’s war in Ukraine.
    It is strongly in the interest of the entire world that the invasion be rapidly defeated.
    (BBC)
    … The combination of massive pandemic debts with rising interest rates and rising prices is truly toxic.

    The talk on the sidelines here at the IMF and World Bank meetings is that the rich countries told emerging economies not to worry about borrowing in order to spend to help suppress the pandemic.

    Now those countries are wondering if these record debts will be written off.

    Campaigning groups are preparing mobilisations over a pandemic debt jubilee. But there is silence from the rich country lenders, so far.

    And there is a very new dynamic these days. The bankers to whom these sums are owed are no longer just in the West.

    China is now, very broadly, owed as much as the entire collection of Western creditors known as the Paris Club.

    How will it respond to calls for leniency on the repayment of loans?

    World Bank President David Malpass says of China: "They have different rules, for example, contracts that have non-disclosure clauses, meaning you can't share the terms with other people that makes it very hard to restructure those debts."

    China has also secured its lending against ports and natural resources. Sri Lanka is a case in point right now.

    The unwinding of all of this might not be orderly, and could have significant geopolitical consequences...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Meanwhile on the subject of 'nailed', Macron absolutely nailed Le Pen last night in the debat.

    His line of attack, with evidence she could not deny, is something Johnson will find himself. Johnson can try to lie his way out of this but the tories are very weak when it comes to dirty Russian money in their coffers. As we see again this morning in breaking news from the BBC:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,615
    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,638
    Nice to be back on the main site again.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,315
    Interesting Dalrymple article about Twitter IMO.

    https://lawliberty.org/which-came-first-twitter-or-the-troll/

    "Which Came First: Twitter or the Troll?

    Does the immense quantity of bile and hatred expressed on social media predate the platforms? Or have these means of expression conjured a new reality?"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,638
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile on the subject of 'nailed', Macron absolutely nailed Le Pen last night in the debat.

    His line of attack, with evidence she could not deny, is something Johnson will find himself. Johnson can try to lie his way out of this but the tories are very weak when it comes to dirty Russian money in their coffers. As we see again this morning in breaking news from the BBC:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    From what I can read (and my French is limited) Macron certainly seems to have got the better of the debate, albeit it was nothing like the 2017 debacle. It should persuade the waverers into his camp, hopefully getting him up to over 60%. My view on this is of course entirely impartial!
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Yebbut he calls you a 'Tory fan boy' and so ends the debate. :smile:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,529
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Good morning everyone.
    I wonder, Mr L, if you are crediting the Russians as a whole with too much 'coherence'.
    Putin is playing, overall, a long game; the oligarchs, or many of them, a short one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,739
    This is why Boris Johnson needs to be ousted now, in future he will be spoken with the same scorn as Lord North, and nobody will admit to ever voting for him, and this is in the Telegraph.

    Boris Johnson is condemning Britain to French-style declinism and despair

    The PM and Emmanuel Macron have much in common, as increasingly do our two countries


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2022/04/20/boris-johnson-condemning-britain-french-style-declinism-despair/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    DavidL said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Yebbut he calls you a 'Tory fan boy' and so ends the debate. :smile:
    If you want to see what Russian influence looks like in practice look no further than Germany. Their failure to support Ukraine in practice is a disgrace but so has been the Nordstream2 program supported vociferously by a former Chancellor which looked to exacerbate Russian dependency in the EU.
    You have to wonder why Putin felt it necessary to move his yacht to Kaliningrad. It's not as though the Germans have showna willingness to take decisive action.

    Maybe he feared it would be a free hit for them to seize it while doing nothing actually useful.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Bought and paid for several times over David, corrupt to the core.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Why would you congratulate a bunching of lying , cheating , unprincipled scumbags.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    The suggestion that such donations have undermined the tories resolve to deal with Putin are laughable. Large parts of the left and the SNP (ban the bomb,etc) have been far more useful to the achievement of Russian foriegn policy aims in recent years, and these people often appear to have been paid off with pocket money from Russia Today, etc.
    NUTJOB
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Bought and paid for several times over David, corrupt to the core.
    With a show on RT like…..Eck?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,335
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Why would you congratulate a bunching of lying , cheating , unprincipled scumbags.
    I’d rather congratulate Mr Salmond for his fine patriotic work with a wholly Scottish production company.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178
    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    The suggestion that such donations have undermined the tories resolve to deal with Putin are laughable. Large parts of the left and the SNP (ban the bomb,etc) have been far more useful to the achievement of Russian foriegn policy aims in recent years, and these people often appear to have been paid off with pocket money from Russia Today, etc.
    NUTJOB
    Morning Malc, are you OK this morning? I ask because there is worrying absence of turnips and bollox in these three posts.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,883
    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    The suggestion that such donations have undermined the tories resolve to deal with Putin are laughable. Large parts of the left and the SNP (ban the bomb,etc) have been far more useful to the achievement of Russian foriegn policy aims in recent years, and these people often appear to have been paid off with pocket money from Russia Today, etc.
    NUTJOB
    Don't want to ruin your morning so early, but something something Salmond?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    Heathener said:

    Thanks so much for the recommendation Mike: it sounds brilliant and I'm going to watch it. I send you all my good wishes and really hope you feel better soon. Thank goodness for vaccines.

    Boris Johnson is the most corrupt politician ever to be prime minister of Britain. Starmer nailed him yesterday. I have this experience on impeccable authority. A friend of mine dared to criticise something Johnson proposed and she and her organisation were then vilified and slandered by him in an act of disgraceful, dishonest, revenge.

    The man is a shit.

    The one saving grace is that if his MPs continue not to do the honourable thing (he most certainly won't) then the voters will. The tories are increasing the chances of an outright Labour win at the next General Election.

    @Heathener meet Robert Walpole.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,983
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    A great many Russian oligarchs spent money like water in the UK so that they would (they hoped) have some protection if they fell out of favour with Putin.
    Just don't drink that London water (polonium enriched).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    A great many Russian oligarchs spent money like water in the UK so that they would (they hoped) have some protection if they fell out of favour with Putin.
    Indeed. Some are closely linked to Putin; some aren't. What they have in common was the desire to purchase influence - which is very obvious in this case.
    I think that is wrong, irrespective of any purported link to Putin.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    edited April 21
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting directly against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Why would you congratulate a bunching of lying , cheating , unprincipled scumbags.
    We aren't talking about the SNP !

    (runs for cover)
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 199

    Heathener said:

    Thanks so much for the recommendation Mike: it sounds brilliant and I'm going to watch it. I send you all my good wishes and really hope you feel better soon. Thank goodness for vaccines.

    Boris Johnson is the most corrupt politician ever to be prime minister of Britain. Starmer nailed him yesterday. I have this experience on impeccable authority. A friend of mine dared to criticise something Johnson proposed and she and her organisation were then vilified and slandered by him in an act of disgraceful, dishonest, revenge.

    The man is a shit.

    The one saving grace is that if his MPs continue not to do the honourable thing (he most certainly won't) then the voters will. The tories are increasing the chances of an outright Labour win at the next General Election.

    @Heathener meet Robert Walpole.

    Set up a meeting round at Lloyd Georges place. imagine what they could cook up....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 15,522

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
  • DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 50,178

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Why would you congratulate a bunching of lying , cheating , unprincipled scumbags.
    We aren't talking about the SNP !

    (runs for cover)
    Why? He’d agree with you!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,202
    edited April 21

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,620
    Nigelb said:

    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the kart of the Brexiteers?

    They know they voted for a shitshow and they have to be mad at somebody
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,688
    edited April 21
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    I agree the government has been solidly supportive of Ukraine during the current offensive. It wasn't always the case before this year. Including after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when Boris Johnson wrote an article criticising the EU and indirectly Ukraine for provoking Russia. The Conservative Party has certainly received a lot of Russian money. This money may not have directly come from Putin, but it never does. The Government tried to suppress a Russia Report that said while there is no identified Russian influence on the 2016 Brexit vote, it was because the government deliberately chose not to investigate (presumably in case someone found something). The UK has a flourishing money laundering business that was (still is?) targeted at Russian oligarchs who have established themselves in all parts of UK society including parliament.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,577
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
    Because they are divided equally between globalists and chauvinists and haven't begun to address the consequences?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Why would you congratulate a bunching of lying , cheating , unprincipled scumbags.
    I'm with you Malc.

    I am not quite up to speed with the fiction that Boris Johnson has led the Western charge against Putin.

    The evidence surrounding Ukrainian refugees certainly suggests no such thing.

    Since the war started it would seem we have done our bit, but this painting of Johnson as Churchill is an utter fabrication.

    Johnson regaling stories in the HoC of
    his bravery at being the "first" G7 Leader to walk the wartorn streets of Kyiv (technically true, but later than several non-G7 including UVDL) which The Mail, Telegraph, Express and loyalist MPs are trying to manufacture into Churchillian war hero Johnson, is vomit inducing in the light of the horrors of the invasion.

    I'm not buying it, but it's a pup they've clearly sold to DavidL and JosiasJessop.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    I think they are allowing their dislike of Boris to cloud their assessment of the situation
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
    Cases of sour grapes? Maybe from delayed customs clearance at Dover?
  • .
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
    Speaking personally I have no sour grapes because I think Brexit is going well. I think by and large we have what I voted for now.

    However there are definite elements of sour grapes within some people who voted for Brexit:

    1: There is a perpetually-sour element of society (stereotypical "grumpy old man") that Brexit appealed to. These people are never happier than when complaining, so they're never going to be happy.

    2: An element of society ( @RochdalePioneers may fall in this category) that voted for it because it was contrarian to the Tory government policy and they could give the government a kicking. Now the Tory government is doing Brexit, they're appalled at what the Tory government is doing (as they always are) so are unhappy.

    3: People who had a specific vision in mind for Brexit and its not "this" Brexit. I personally fell under this category when Theresa May was in charge and was trying to force through the Backstop, I think but am not certain that @Richard_Tyndall may fall in this category now.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    How about those who were prepared to serve in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    I agree the government has been solidly supportive of Ukraine during the current offensive. It wasn't always the case before this year. Including after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when Boris Johnson wrote an article criticising the EU and indirectly Ukraine for provoking Russia. The Conservative Party has certainly received a lot of Russian money. This money may not have directly come from Putin, but it never does. The Government tried to suppress a Russia Report that said while there is no identified Russian influence on the 2016 Brexit vote, it was because the government deliberately chose not to investigate (presumably in case someone found something). The UK has a flourishing money laundering business that was (still is?) targeted at Russian oligarchs who have established themselves in all parts of UK society including parliament.
    So if there is evidence they are guilty and if there is no evidence they are guilty. Ok then
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    Cyclefree said:

    Here is Parliament's Russia report. Worth reading. We are too complacent about why very wealthy people from autocracies and tyrannies seek to put their money here and what it does to us. IMO.

    https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf

    Sadly all the interesting stuff is (***) and the rest is well written bromide
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,828
    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,015
    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote. Otherwise he is, apparently, worse than Boris Johnson.

    My suggestion that he could try and move policy gradually in a direction, trying to bring the voters with him, is apparently heresy.

    I voted Remain and all. But I just can't get my head to work that way - especially the demand for not vote - in parliament or otherwise!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 29,754
    Just finished the series and quite enjoyed it. The message about privilege undermining equity and ethics is a bit clunkily delivered but it's very apt and true.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    edited April 21

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think you are being unfair there. It’s always a bit silly to personalise things, but the UK government and diplomatic machine has been very active rounding up and chivvying people along. There is no way Ukraine would have gathered such a coalition of support without a major player cheerleading for them.

    Boris, as PM, deserves credit for that but (a) it was the path of least resistance for him; (b) it plays to his self image and strengths; (c) it is very much a team sport
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,574

    This is why Boris Johnson needs to be ousted now, in future he will be spoken with the same scorn as Lord North, and nobody will admit to ever voting for him, and this is in the Telegraph.

    Boris Johnson is condemning Britain to French-style declinism and despair

    The PM and Emmanuel Macron have much in common, as increasingly do our two countries


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2022/04/20/boris-johnson-condemning-britain-french-style-declinism-despair/

    I think it was David Frum in US who used to regular write and tweet that once Trump had finally been ousted no one would admit to having supported him. Doesn't look that way to be honest. GOP candidates desperate for his blessing and all that.

    Frum might be right after the second term of chaos and destruction.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785
    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Last night's Russian hack is still not quite fixed, I've been diverted to Trip Advisor by the looks of it.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote.
    Only a Conservative mole would advocate that policy.

    Seriously. Madness. And I'm a Remainer.

    If ever we were to rejoin the EU it would have to be following a referendum and there's absolutely NO guarantee that the EU would have us back. We would lose all of the opt-out privileges we previously wangled.

    Total madness.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,983

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    The people of Ukraine respectfully think you are talking out your arse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,015
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Surely nobody thinks he’s the devil incarnate? The devil works much harder and more efficiently than this rabble.
    The biggest problem with the Ukraine war that some have is that it is contra-narrative.

    1) Everything that BJ does is wrong and evil
    2) Ukraine is in the right
    3) Therefor BJ can't be supporting Ukraine.

    The fact that some of the "Good" Big European countries - France, Germany, Italy - were not of this mind makes it worse.

    It's almost as if human beings have multiple facets - they can do good and bad things. At the same time.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    .

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
    Speaking personally I have no sour grapes because I think Brexit is going well. I think by and large we have what I voted for now.
    .
    Except you haven't yet got back the Troubles in Northern Ireland, which you said you wanted as a fair price to pay for Brexit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,828

    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
    I am inspired, in all ways, by the exploits of Blanche Livermore

    Also I’ve got a long flight in Treblinka Class, so I want to sleep. A carafe of white and 2 Clonazapam should do it, I reckon
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,574

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    How about those who were prepared to serve in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet?
    I too am of the view that he should not be PM. I've wanted him to be thrown out for a while now. But in last few weeks have become increasingly concerned that with Sunak no longer looking like a coronation we could see a contest and end up with the members choosing someone worse e.g Patel.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,157
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    Paper thin argument. First, who ever thought Russian oligarchs had the same interests as Russia? Secondly corrupt financial arrangements like honest ones have defined scope and subject matter: you don't hire a lawyer and expect him to wash your car for you, you don't assume that if someone is prepared to sell you illegal drugs they will also source an AK47 for you. the Ukraine war is simply outside the scope of the corrupt dealings of the tory party. Coming at it from the other direction, you have to ask what the oligarchs are getting for their (undenied) payments to the tory party? Are you saying the tories are defrauding them?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think you are being unfair there. It’s always a bit silly to personalise things, but the UK government and diplomatic machine has been very active rounding up and chivvying people along. There is no way Ukraine would have gathered such a coalition of support without a major player cheerleading for them.

    Boris, as PM, deserves credit for that but (a) it was the path of least resistance for him; (b) it plays to his self image and strengths; (c) it is very much a team sport
    Your final paragraph is unadultersted Johnsonian propaganda.

    I am not critical of much of the effort, just how it is being sold, and by whom.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712
    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    There is now, but we were dragged kicking and screaming to that position doing all we could to resist taking action against Russian money in the UK. THAT is what money buys you - enough time to get some assets out of the way.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think the 'fantasy notion' is one of your own creation?

    "The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others."

    We've done much more than France (and earlier), and massively more than Germany. Germany in particular seems to be in rather a muddle. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-scholz-tries-to-dodge-criticism-over-ukraine-heavy-weapons-deliveries/a-61516713

    And you might want to remember what Zelenskyy says about Johnson and the UK's support.

    It's sad that so many people on the left have to belittle the UK, just because they do not like what the country has done under the Conservative Party and Johnson. There's plenty to fairly criticise, but criticising us when we've done well is a little sad.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,688
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    I agree the government has been solidly supportive of Ukraine during the current offensive. It wasn't always the case before this year. Including after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when Boris Johnson wrote an article criticising the EU and indirectly Ukraine for provoking Russia. The Conservative Party has certainly received a lot of Russian money. This money may not have directly come from Putin, but it never does. The Government tried to suppress a Russia Report that said while there is no identified Russian influence on the 2016 Brexit vote, it was because the government deliberately chose not to investigate (presumably in case someone found something). The UK has a flourishing money laundering business that was (still is?) targeted at Russian oligarchs who have established themselves in all parts of UK society including parliament.
    Should add the Telegraph was getting funding from the Russian government I think until this year. This presumably supported Johnson's unusually large salary as a journalist on that paper when he wrote articles generally supportive of Russia.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
    I am inspired, in all ways, by the exploits of Blanche Livermore

    Also I’ve got a long flight in Treblinka Class, so I want to sleep. A carafe of white and 2 Clonazapam should do it, I reckon
    Prefer Business lounges myself.

    Not that I'd post pics of it on pb.com. Kind of show-offy which is not very classy Leon. Nonetheless have a good flight.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748
    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    That's utter rubbish.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,157

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    How about those who were prepared to serve in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet?
    I too am of the view that he should not be PM. I've wanted him to be thrown out for a while now. But in last few weeks have become increasingly concerned that with Sunak no longer looking like a coronation we could see a contest and end up with the members choosing someone worse e.g Patel.

    Not sure Rishi was ever going to be coronated.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
    I am inspired, in all ways, by the exploits of Blanche Livermore

    Also I’ve got a long flight in Treblinka Class, so I want to sleep. A carafe of white and 2 Clonazapam should do it, I reckon
    Lucky you.

    My schedule for the next week:

    Dublin, Stockholm, London, New York, Austin, Wamego (WTAF? You’d think that people with choices would move…), Trenton, Indianapolis, NYC and then back to Europe.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    The people of Ukraine respectfully think you are talking out your arse.
    That is not unusual, but I am nonetheless right on this occasion.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,015
    Heathener said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote.
    Only a Conservative mole would advocate that policy.

    Seriously. Madness. And I'm a Remainer.

    If ever we were to rejoin the EU it would have to be following a referendum and there's absolutely NO guarantee that the EU would have us back. We would lose all of the opt-out privileges we previously wangled.

    Total madness.
    It is the method - a total denial of democracy - that I find the mad part.

    To me, the failure in British politics is the absence of connection to the people. We need more democracy, not less. I want a Swiss style vote-of-everything. Everything is on the table.

    Some then say, what if the Head Count demand a referendum on the death penalty?

    To the terror of many, I say "Let it happen".

    To me, JA Froude was right. "Constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions".

    A "living constitution" (and similar laws) is the *current* settled will of the people. They are not there to bar the people from actions.

    If you can't get the majority to ban the death penalty, then you have a choice between the death penalty and democracy.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    That's utter rubbish.
    Clearly it isn't. Your Conservative Party is funded by Russia. Dirty Putin money.

    Boris Johnson and the tories have been Russia's greatest allies.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,801
    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    So all the miltary training & equipment the UK provided Ukraine including when RAF flights had to detour around Germany, was that supporting Russia?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 8,968

    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
    Possibly adjusting to the timezone of the destination...?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    So all the miltary training & equipment the UK provided Ukraine including when RAF flights had to detour around Germany, was that supporting Russia?
    Ah my ultra right wing NHS worker, who in fact turns out to be a construction business manager, is back.

    The links between the Conservatives and Putin's dirty money go back years. The last few months of fluff and bluster won't undo the truth I'm afraid.

    You tories are riddled with dirty Putin money.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,157

    Heathener said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote.
    Only a Conservative mole would advocate that policy.

    Seriously. Madness. And I'm a Remainer.

    If ever we were to rejoin the EU it would have to be following a referendum and there's absolutely NO guarantee that the EU would have us back. We would lose all of the opt-out privileges we previously wangled.

    Total madness.
    It is the method - a total denial of democracy - that I find the mad part.

    To me, the failure in British politics is the absence of connection to the people. We need more democracy, not less. I want a Swiss style vote-of-everything. Everything is on the table.

    Some then say, what if the Head Count demand a referendum on the death penalty?

    To the terror of many, I say "Let it happen".

    To me, JA Froude was right. "Constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions".

    A "living constitution" (and similar laws) is the *current* settled will of the people. They are not there to bar the people from actions.

    If you can't get the majority to ban the death penalty, then you have a choice between the death penalty and democracy.
    And that is why you fudge it. Seriously. We have a well documented case study in ancient Athens, and I can promise you Athens would have voted for the Holocaust

    In fact there's a test for you. You happy for a democratically mandated holocaust?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 2,127

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think you are being unfair there. It’s always a bit silly to personalise things, but the UK government and diplomatic machine has been very active rounding up and chivvying people along. There is no way Ukraine would have gathered such a coalition of support without a major player cheerleading for them.

    Boris, as PM, deserves credit for that but (a) it was the path of least resistance for him; (b) it plays to his self image and strengths; (c) it is very much a team sport
    Your final paragraph is unadultersted Johnsonian propaganda.

    I am not critical of much of the effort, just how it is being sold, and by whom.
    I think you misunderstand my last paragraph. Let me rephrase:

    Boris is supporting Ukraine because (a) he’s a lazy shit and anything else would be hard work to change settled government policy; (b) he thinks he’s Churchill and he is good at running around making enthusiastic speeches but not doing much that is practical; and (c) all the real work was done by other people.

    Which bit is the “unadulterated Johnsonian propaganda”?

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,688
    edited April 21

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    I agree the government has been solidly supportive of Ukraine during the current offensive. It wasn't always the case before this year. Including after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 when Boris Johnson wrote an article criticising the EU and indirectly Ukraine for provoking Russia. The Conservative Party has certainly received a lot of Russian money. This money may not have directly come from Putin, but it never does. The Government tried to suppress a Russia Report that said while there is no identified Russian influence on the 2016 Brexit vote, it was because the government deliberately chose not to investigate (presumably in case someone found something). The UK has a flourishing money laundering business that was (still is?) targeted at Russian oligarchs who have established themselves in all parts of UK society including parliament.
    So if there is evidence they are guilty and if there is no evidence they are guilty. Ok then
    Russia and the Conservative Party are associated. How much effective influence the first have on the second is unknown because governance is weak and the current government is undermining it further. If they had proper governance in place these Russian actors would be not be close to the Conservative Party as now.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,731
    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    Seriously? In what way?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    The Boris band on here seem very riled this morning. Like their lord and leader yesterday. As Sky News said, SKS got under Johnson's skin.

    Not working out quite as you hoped, is it?

    Have a nice day everyone else ;)

    xx
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,015
    edited April 21
    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote.
    Only a Conservative mole would advocate that policy.

    Seriously. Madness. And I'm a Remainer.

    If ever we were to rejoin the EU it would have to be following a referendum and there's absolutely NO guarantee that the EU would have us back. We would lose all of the opt-out privileges we previously wangled.

    Total madness.
    It is the method - a total denial of democracy - that I find the mad part.

    To me, the failure in British politics is the absence of connection to the people. We need more democracy, not less. I want a Swiss style vote-of-everything. Everything is on the table.

    Some then say, what if the Head Count demand a referendum on the death penalty?

    To the terror of many, I say "Let it happen".

    To me, JA Froude was right. "Constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions".

    A "living constitution" (and similar laws) is the *current* settled will of the people. They are not there to bar the people from actions.

    If you can't get the majority to ban the death penalty, then you have a choice between the death penalty and democracy.
    And that is why you fudge it. Seriously. We have a well documented case study in ancient Athens, and I can promise you Athens would have voted for the Holocaust

    In fact there's a test for you. You happy for a democratically mandated holocaust?
    Then you need to stand up and say "No democracy today"

    Not "I am protecting democracy from democracy".

    I'd also note that the number of genocides in modern Switzerland seems on the low side. A country where the Germans, French and Italians live to together in harmony. With a common vision of the future.

    The protection against genocide is not in the laws. It is in the culture and customs of the people as a group. See the reaction of the Dutch to the Hunger Winter.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    The suggestion that such donations have undermined the tories resolve to deal with Putin are laughable. Large parts of the left and the SNP (ban the bomb,etc) have been far more useful to the achievement of Russian foriegn policy aims in recent years, and these people often appear to have been paid off with pocket money from Russia Today, etc.
    NUTJOB
    Don't want to ruin your morning so early, but something something Salmond?
    This Salmond? https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-ordered-remove-massive-26591015

    I can confirm that I am not the member of the public who made the complaint...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,157

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think the 'fantasy notion' is one of your own creation?

    "The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others."

    We've done much more than France (and earlier), and massively more than Germany. Germany in particular seems to be in rather a muddle. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-scholz-tries-to-dodge-criticism-over-ukraine-heavy-weapons-deliveries/a-61516713

    And you might want to remember what Zelenskyy says about Johnson and the UK's support.

    It's sad that so many people on the left have to belittle the UK, just because they do not like what the country has done under the Conservative Party and Johnson. There's plenty to fairly criticise, but criticising us when we've done well is a little sad.
    That's the UK supporting them. Me and, I hope, you. Phatboi is, until we can make better arrangements, the figurehead of the country

    He would have sold out Ukraine in a heartbeat if he didn't fear a grass roots rebellion, too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    That's utter rubbish.
    Clearly it isn't. Your Conservative Party is funded by Russia. Dirty Putin money.

    Boris Johnson and the tories have been Russia's greatest allies.
    "Your Conservative Party"

    It is not 'my' Conservative Party. I have never been a member, and often do not vote for them. I therefore find it hard to see how you can call it 'my' Conservative Party.

    If 'Russia's greatest allies' do things like Operation Orbital, then I'd hate to think what their enemies do.

    And you are also really, really inaccurate. Look at Germany for a country supposedly against Russia that is doing everything it can to help them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    .

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The sour grapes are just because some Remainers still don't understand why they lost the vote, since they think all sensible people must have voted like them, and so therefore there must be some nefarious explanation - despite no evidence for such being found despite nearly a decade of the most ardent Remainers digging and looking for that non-existent evidence.

    As often in modern times the existence of Twitter has helped to further reinforce and radicalise those with these delusions.
    And how do you account for the continuing sour grapes on the part of the Brexiteers?
    Speaking personally I have no sour grapes because I think Brexit is going well. I think by and large we have what I voted for now.

    However there are definite elements of sour grapes within some people who voted for Brexit:

    1: There is a perpetually-sour element of society (stereotypical "grumpy old man") that Brexit appealed to. These people are never happier than when complaining, so they're never going to be happy.

    2: An element of society ( @RochdalePioneers may fall in this category) that voted for it because it was contrarian to the Tory government policy and they could give the government a kicking. Now the Tory government is doing Brexit, they're appalled at what the Tory government is doing (as they always are) so are unhappy.

    3: People who had a specific vision in mind for Brexit and its not "this" Brexit. I personally fell under this category when Theresa May was in charge and was trying to force through the Backstop, I think but am not certain that @Richard_Tyndall may fall in this category now.
    I voted for Brexit because I could see the logic that as we did not want to participate in the currency or Schengen or the Army that we would be spun to the outer edges at some point anyway so best do it ourselves than be pushed.

    As for Brexit going well, clearly. M20 car park, best in the world.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,748
    Heathener said:

    The Boris band on here seem very riled this morning. Like their lord and leader yesterday. As Sky News said, SKS got under Johnson's skin.

    Not working out quite as you hoped, is it?

    Have a nice day everyone else ;)

    xx

    'Boris band'.

    If you are referring to me, then you obviously missed where I repeatedly say Boris is not a good PM. Indeed, below I wrote; "He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,785

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. And whilst you are correct that the training started before Boris was in office, it was extended and expanded whilst he was in office - amongst others, in 2019 and 2020. It would have been easy for Boris to cur Operation Orbital off at the knees.

    I am not a fan of Boris, but the attempts of some to make him into the devil incarnate are ridiculous. He is a deeply flawed man, and he should not be PM, but even deeply flawed people can make the right decisions for the right reasons.

    It's especially rich from those who supported Corbyn's Labour party...
    Your argument is weak when your benchmark for success is that a Corbyn Labour Government would be even worse.

    The UK's support for Ukraine is admirable, better than some, not as good as others. But this fantasy notion that Johnson is leading the charge and making the running is a fiction, disrespectful to those suffering in and those now out of Ukraine.
    I think you are being unfair there. It’s always a bit silly to personalise things, but the UK government and diplomatic machine has been very active rounding up and chivvying people along. There is no way Ukraine would have gathered such a coalition of support without a major player cheerleading for them.

    Boris, as PM, deserves credit for that but (a) it was the path of least resistance for him; (b) it plays to his self image and strengths; (c) it is very much a team sport
    Your final paragraph is unadultersted Johnsonian propaganda.

    I am not critical of much of the effort, just how it is being sold, and by whom.
    I think you misunderstand my last paragraph. Let me rephrase:

    Boris is supporting Ukraine because (a) he’s a lazy shit and anything else would be hard work to change settled government policy; (b) he thinks he’s Churchill and he is good at running around making enthusiastic speeches but not doing much that is practical; and (c) all the real work was done by other people.

    Which bit is the “unadulterated Johnsonian propaganda”?

    Thank you for your explanation. I couldn't disagree
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,015

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    That's utter rubbish.
    Clearly it isn't. Your Conservative Party is funded by Russia. Dirty Putin money.

    Boris Johnson and the tories have been Russia's greatest allies.
    "Your Conservative Party"

    It is not 'my' Conservative Party. I have never been a member, and often do not vote for them. I therefore find it hard to see how you can call it 'my' Conservative Party.

    If 'Russia's greatest allies' do things like Operation Orbital, then I'd hate to think what their enemies do.

    And you are also really, really inaccurate. Look at Germany for a country supposedly against Russia that is doing everything it can to help them.
    Simple case.

    Since 2014 (and before), the UK government consistently opposed NordStream 2.

    The German government participated in it, and even tried to get neighbouring countries such as Poland to not extend their LNG facilities.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,157

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    If someone truly believes that Russia spent millions trying to get influence within the Conservative Party, then they should be congratulating the Conservative Party for having taken the money, and then done exactly the opposite of what the Kremlin desired! Indeed, doing the opposite even whilst the money was being given... ;)

    Although IMV it's probably much more complex than that. I do not think all Russian donors who gave money in any western country were doing so under Putin's orders. It's just the way things are done in Russia, and the amounts were trivial to many of them. Some would also be feeling (with good reason) uncertain about their status.
    Aside from Brexit, presumably.

    And the defence is that oligarchs were trying to buy influence but that is all right because it is separate from the Russian state trying to buy influence? Some neutral observers might think influence-peddling is morally suspect from the off. Notwithstanding that some might be less independent from the Kremlin than advertised.
    I think any connection between Brexit and Russia is fairly minor, if it exists at all.

    Brexit occurred because the people voted for it; and remain lost the vote (sadly, IMO) because they could not make a good enough case for remaining. If they had made a better case, they would have won.
    The level of dissonance created by Brexit among the 'chattering classes' has scarred them for a generation. Even with the chance of a returning Labour/Left Coalition government the level of derangement will still be there and place huge pressure on a Starmer led government. It may yet prevent it ever happening. The PB tendency to extrapolate 2 years ahead from current polling is already creating hubristic levels of expectations among some posters.
    I have a friend of a friend who is *demanding* that Starmer immediately announces Rejoin. Specifically without any vote.
    Only a Conservative mole would advocate that policy.

    Seriously. Madness. And I'm a Remainer.

    If ever we were to rejoin the EU it would have to be following a referendum and there's absolutely NO guarantee that the EU would have us back. We would lose all of the opt-out privileges we previously wangled.

    Total madness.
    It is the method - a total denial of democracy - that I find the mad part.

    To me, the failure in British politics is the absence of connection to the people. We need more democracy, not less. I want a Swiss style vote-of-everything. Everything is on the table.

    Some then say, what if the Head Count demand a referendum on the death penalty?

    To the terror of many, I say "Let it happen".

    To me, JA Froude was right. "Constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions".

    A "living constitution" (and similar laws) is the *current* settled will of the people. They are not there to bar the people from actions.

    If you can't get the majority to ban the death penalty, then you have a choice between the death penalty and democracy.
    And that is why you fudge it. Seriously. We have a well documented case study in ancient Athens, and I can promise you Athens would have voted for the Holocaust

    In fact there's a test for you. You happy for a democratically mandated holocaust?
    Then you need to stand up and say "No democracy today"

    Not "I am protecting democracy from democracy".

    I'd also note that the number of genocides in modern Switzerland seems on the low side. A country where the Germans, French and Italians live to together in harmony. With a common vision of the future.

    The protection against genocide is not in the laws. It is in the culture and customs of the people as a group. See the reaction of the Dutch to the Hunger Winter.
    Switzerland has nothing to do with it, we are talking about IF the vote THEN what do you do about it?

    The Athenian assembly explicitly voted for the genocide of Mitylene, so if you are suggesting that highly educated democracies don't do that kind of shit, you are wrong
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,712

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Lubov Chernukhin wife of ex Putin crony and who has had paid for access to our last 3 PMs with £2m donated to the Tory party turns out to have been a director of a company secretly owned by a sanctioned Russian oligarch. Of course she now can't recall being a director of said company. Her husband received $8m from the same Russian oligarch she can't remember being a director for.

    I wonder if the Tory fan boys will continue to say it is racist for links between Putin and Tory funding to be highlighted.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

    Racist? Who on earth said it was racist?

    The ridicule is directed at the idea that the Tory party has been bought or influenced by Russian oligarchs when the UK has led the charge in both supporting and training Ukrainian forces. Yesterday the UK was being specifically named as having caused the default on Russian state backed loans by its sanctions regime. Not only is there no evidence of influence but such evidence as there is points in the opposite direction.
    AH! But that just because since they’ve been bought they need to prove their independence by acting direct against Russia’s interests.

    I think that was the argument that the anti-Tories were advancing yesterday….
    Some were arguing that Boris's fondness for Ukraine is not out of principle (and the much-heralded training began long before Boris was in office) but because he has seized on Putin's invasion as a massive dead cat. Never mind partygate, there's a war on!
    The government have been supporting Ukraine from well before partygate. ..
    Swap the word Ukraine for Russia and you're there.
    So all the miltary training & equipment the UK provided Ukraine including when RAF flights had to detour around Germany, was that supporting Russia?
    No, thats them doing the reverse ferret. Dragged their heels on sanctions until they couldn't defend the position of their donors any more, then did the complete about turn and started chasing them so hard as to make everyone forget just how much Russian money they trousered.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,088
    Heathener said:

    The Boris band on here seem very riled this morning. Like their lord and leader yesterday. As Sky News said, SKS got under Johnson's skin.

    Not working out quite as you hoped, is it?

    Have a nice day everyone else ;)

    xx

    Ah, we're onto the 'my opponents are upset at what I said, therefore they must be rattled' dodge. I always like that one, along with its partner 'they are saying leader X is crap, this must be because they fear X'.

    I think Keir is doing a good job and in any case Boris should not be PM, but you do know people reacting to deliberately provocative comments doesnt prove they are rattled? Not least since you're presuming anyone who disagrees is a tory loyalist, which is probably nonsense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 23,828
    edited April 21
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning PB


    A healthy breakfast at LHR Terminal 5.

    The wine is Davenport Hosmornden Dry, from Sussex, England, and quite delicious







    Wine for breakfast?
    I am inspired, in all ways, by the exploits of Blanche Livermore

    Also I’ve got a long flight in Treblinka Class, so I want to sleep. A carafe of white and 2 Clonazapam should do it, I reckon
    Prefer Business lounges myself.

    Not that I'd post pics of it on pb.com. Kind of show-offy which is not very classy Leon. Nonetheless have a good flight.

    Times are hard at the Knappers’ Gazette*. As everywhere in the world

    No biz class, no lounges, hence the alcoholic anaesthetic

    *I mean, I could have paid for my own biz class ticket, I suppose, but $4000 for a somewhat wider seat and some weird cheese and crackers in a lounge, or a curry you don’t want. Hmm. I have accepted my humble status and a free ticket in the cattle section
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