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It looks as though the lockdown bandits think they can tough it out – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited April 2022 in General
imageIt looks as though the lockdown bandits think they can tough it out – politicalbetting.com

The PM and Chancellor are going to brazen it out. That much is clear. An apology, a reference to all the other much more important work that needs to be done, Ukraine, a hope that MPs and voters are weary of it all, the happy coincidence that Parliament is not sitting, and so on. It is likely to work for now, even if opinion polls show a certain amount of buyer’s remorse. The May elections may bring a change of heart. But even if they are bad, expect Tory MPs to blame the cost of living, energy prices, tax increases and “every day concerns“.

Read the full story here

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    Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    Let he who is without sin cake, throw the first stone.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    We are pretty much at the stage where Johnson defecates on the dispatch box during PMQs and it dawns on people that there is nothing they can do about it. Hoyle says something really quite stern, Blackford calls for a resignation, Johnson promises to ask Lord Geidt to investigate and report, Shapps goes on r4 to ask why people are asking Westminster bubble questions about a single bowel movement when Ukraine, are his critics seriously saying they have never taken a dump themselves, and HYUFD says that only crypto communists will change their vote as a result, and Big_G says he will abide by the verdict of the voters in 2024
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Rwanda processing centre is the first good idea the government has had in ages. Completely smashes the pull factor for economic migrants trying to cross the channel but still provides a safe country for legitimate asylum seekers to await their case to be processed.

    Anyone who is unwilling to even contemplate that overseas processing will reduce deaths in the channel is part of the problem. The people smuggler's useful idiot. Same as those charity boats doing rescues off the coast of Italy. Just enriching people smugglers.

    Not so sure. A really forward thinking government would be setting up an arrangement like this -

    image

    Apparently, they even sell the labour of the detainees to the local farmers. Auction it at a local market on a daily basis.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe
    Oh but those are EU funded labour/slave camps. The reports must be wrong, the virtuous EU could never do anything like this. Only Brexit Britain would, the NYT must have it wrong.
    But think - we could solve the cotton pickingstrawberry picking problems in a single stroke....
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    IshmaelZ said:

    We are pretty much at the stage where Johnson defecates on the dispatch box during PMQs and it dawns on people that there is nothing they can do about it. Hoyle says something really quite stern, Blackford calls for a resignation, Johnson promises to ask Lord Geidt to investigate and report, Shapps goes on r4 to ask why people are asking Westminster bubble questions about a single bowel movement when Ukraine, are his critics seriously saying they have never taken a dump themselves, and HYUFD says that only crypto communists will change their vote as a result, and Big_G says he will abide by the verdict of the voters in 2024

    That is the nature of our democracy is it not? An executive that controls the confidence of the house carries on until the next election? You, me and others might think the house would be better served by removing confidence but ultimately the electorate will judge that decision.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    The Kigali comeback.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    Great article @Cyclefree !
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    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    Next year he can retire as the PM that got Brexit done, got us through the pandemic, helped win World War Three and let someone else take the forthcoming election defeat.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    Against that you have the fact there’s no one waiting in the wings and Boris will destroy any potential rival.

    My best hunch is Javid, who has weathered the storm. But he’s a long shot.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited April 2022
    £120m cost of the scheme. Even at 10x the cost it's good value.

    The idea that we could fund a UK based immigration inspection team to go and check the immigration status of workers in businesses for £120m is laughable. That's a £2-3bn per year cost of expanding the border agency with thousands of agents needing to be recruited in a very tight labour market.

    Just in case RP is looking for the costs.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Sandpit said:

    Let he who is without sin cake, throw the first stone.

    It is not the act of breaking the law, or the sin/cake, that is the real problem. It is the constant lying, gaslighting and refusal to live in a real world that breaks democracy.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    We are pretty much at the stage where Johnson defecates on the dispatch box during PMQs and it dawns on people that there is nothing they can do about it. Hoyle says something really quite stern, Blackford calls for a resignation, Johnson promises to ask Lord Geidt to investigate and report, Shapps goes on r4 to ask why people are asking Westminster bubble questions about a single bowel movement when Ukraine, are his critics seriously saying they have never taken a dump themselves, and HYUFD says that only crypto communists will change their vote as a result, and Big_G says he will abide by the verdict of the voters in 2024

    That is the nature of our democracy is it not? An executive that controls the confidence of the house carries on until the next election? You, me and others might think the house would be better served by removing confidence but ultimately the electorate will judge that decision.
    Not so straightforward because as well as the framework of rules there's meant to be a parallel system based on guilt (feeling bad about having done something) or shame (feeling bad about being found out). If an officer is found to have been cottaging in the other ranks latrines you don't prosecute him, you leave him alone with the whisky and revolver and he does the decent thing. Except you get a rogue officer who realises you can drink the whisky and leave the revolver well alone, and the system has suddenly broken down.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176
    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    IshmaelZ said:

    We are pretty much at the stage where Johnson defecates on the dispatch box during PMQs and it dawns on people that there is nothing they can do about it. Hoyle says something really quite stern, Blackford calls for a resignation, Johnson promises to ask Lord Geidt to investigate and report, Shapps goes on r4 to ask why people are asking Westminster bubble questions about a single bowel movement when Ukraine, are his critics seriously saying they have never taken a dump themselves, and HYUFD says that only crypto communists will change their vote as a result, and Big_G says he will abide by the verdict of the voters in 2024

    It was illuminating when Trump claimed (in his customary "Is he joking? I'm not sure" way) that he could shoot someone on Pennsylvania Avenue and he'd still win. He turned out not to be entirely right, but very nearly so. As Cyclefree observes, the proportion of the electorate who really care about democratic principle and honesty above all other considerations is not as large as we may like to think. If the answer to "Do you want to be governed by the rule of law?" is "I'm not sure, what do the polls say?" then the argument has already been lost.
    Does the FPN not demonstrate that they are not above the law?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,790
    Funny they’re announcing this new refugee policy on the day more shocking NHS figures are due to be released .
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    ydoethur said:

    English County Cricket season starts today, Yorkshire have a gentle opener against minor county south west. Toss don’t matter, both options lead to a 3 day win and back home for lamb roast for the boys.
    Harry Brook Englands number 1 Batsman. Go Harry!

    image

    That’s optimistic. Unless Harris and Dent both get big hundreds batting first no way will Gloucestershire win in three days even against a minor county of bankrupt racists.
    There ain’t any Dent on the scorecard? LOL Harris versus King Harry then 😁

    That’s not my legs btw, that’s Charlotte, my thighs are fat!
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    Good to see Max and Bartholomew Roberts supporting the Rwanda policy. Even Big G NorthWales would appear to support it and yet the attacks on poor HYUFD continue.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    We are pretty much at the stage where Johnson defecates on the dispatch box during PMQs and it dawns on people that there is nothing they can do about it. Hoyle says something really quite stern, Blackford calls for a resignation, Johnson promises to ask Lord Geidt to investigate and report, Shapps goes on r4 to ask why people are asking Westminster bubble questions about a single bowel movement when Ukraine, are his critics seriously saying they have never taken a dump themselves, and HYUFD says that only crypto communists will change their vote as a result, and Big_G says he will abide by the verdict of the voters in 2024

    It was illuminating when Trump claimed (in his customary "Is he joking? I'm not sure" way) that he could shoot someone on Pennsylvania Avenue and he'd still win. He turned out not to be entirely right, but very nearly so. As Cyclefree observes, the proportion of the electorate who really care about democratic principle and honesty above all other considerations is not as large as we may like to think. If the answer to "Do you want to be governed by the rule of law?" is "I'm not sure, what do the polls say?" then the argument has already been lost.
    My first requirement of Starmer will be that he put in place robust rules to make sure that someone other than the PM is the arbiter of the PM's conduct so that this cannot happen again. A big ask, obv, as the person bound by the new rules will be Starmer, but he's gotta do it.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Carnyx said:

    A depressingly accurate and cutting piece on morality in UK public life and the 'conservative' party; thank you.

    Then where’s the opposition making hay in all this?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited April 2022
    Could the Human Rights Lawyers appeal this policy on the grounds of sex discrimination seeing as it will apply only to young men ?
    & What happens if there is a boat full of self identified young girls*

    * Just because they have a beard doesn't mean...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    With more time, I could do a better job, but in the meantime...
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    Interesting, who are these people who created the laws? Perhaps Sue Gray may be able to tell us if we give her six months?
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,418
    edited April 2022

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    Next year he can retire as the PM that got Brexit done, got us through the pandemic, helped win World War Three and let someone else take the forthcoming election defeat.
    That might be the interesting bit, actually. Suppose Johnson hangs on long enough to properly scupper the Conservative ship; he probably has already, because of the economy. But really scupper the ship, so that it's visibly beyond repair without time in the dry dock of opposition.

    To take over in those circumstances you would have to either be mad, have a sense of duty that is indistinguishable from madness, or know that a Hail Mary pass is your only chance at the top job.

    Who goes for it?

    (I can imagine Boris dining out on the idea that he would have won in 2024, unlike whatstheirname.)
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    nico679 said:

    Funny they’re announcing this new refugee policy on the day more shocking NHS figures are due to be released .

    Suspect it is more to do with making sure Patel's name is still in the frame come the leadership election.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    MaxPB said:

    £120m cost of the scheme. Even at 10x the cost it's good value.

    The idea that we could fund a UK based immigration inspection team to go and check the immigration status of workers in businesses for £120m is laughable. That's a £2-3bn per year cost of expanding the border agency with thousands of agents needing to be recruited in a very tight labour market.

    Just in case RP is looking for the costs.

    Trivial to make it self funding and self prosecuting. No government involvement required.

    100K fine per undocumented worker.

    50% goes to the undocumented worker. Providing they give evidence and there is a conviction that is upheld on appeal.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,311
    edited April 2022

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    That's a rational and well-argued case, Turbo, but based on a misapprehension.

    You fail to appreciate that Boris's conduct is driven by a huge sense of entitlement. Many of those who surround him feel the same. Laws are for me and thee, not for them. Once you understand that, you understand how behaviour which to normal people would be regarded as unacceptable is brushed aside.

    It's not complicated, really. He was entirely sincere in his pleadings. He just didn't think the rules applied to him, or his mates.

    If you have any doubt about this, don't just look at partygate; look at his whole career, his whole life.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,790

    nico679 said:

    Funny they’re announcing this new refugee policy on the day more shocking NHS figures are due to be released .

    Suspect it is more to do with making sure Patel's name is still in the frame come the leadership election.
    I expect the refugee policy will be popular with certain voters . Whether it’s enough to stop a bad local elections for the Tories difficult to say .

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Jonathan said:

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    Against that you have the fact there’s no one waiting in the wings and Boris will destroy any potential rival.

    My best hunch is Javid, who has weathered the storm. But he’s a long shot.
    Not completely

    https://www.ft.com/content/647eb171-1cf3-4561-b85d-55d499300367

    “It’s not entirely clear the basis of his non-domicile status,” said Dan Neidle, former head of tax at Clifford Chance, the law firm. “On the face of it, it seems a bit racier than Mrs Sunak’s claim.”

    Nimesh Shah, chief executive at Blick Rothenberg, an accountancy firm, added there was “a question mark” over Javid’s non-dom status. “He was born here, he’s lived here most of his life. Whilst legally, there is a question mark here, this whole law is all very subjective . . . But his claim is not as strong.”

    Javid held non-dom status for an unspecified period during the two decades when he was a wealthy globe-trotting banker.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Rwanda and Glasgow have broadly the same amount of rainfall each year.
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    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,434

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I hope you're right, and that he will go. I'm truly fed up with BJ.

    HOWEVER - given the nauseating approach of the French and Germans to Ukraine, there is still a very real bit of me that wants Boris to stay at least for a bit because he, at least, has given unstinting support to Zelinskyy. I really think it would be a body-blow for Ukraine if Boris was kicked out now. It would give too much satisfaction to Putin and his appeasers.

    So, for now, Boris should stay.

    https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/frence-president-emmanuel-macrons-refusal-to-talk-of-genocide-in-ukraine-painful-ukraine-president-volodymyr-zelensky-2886723
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    Interesting, who are these people who created the laws? Perhaps Sue Gray may be able to tell us if we give her six months?
    Yes - I agree with you - it was the same people.

    The laws were probably impossible to draft. You have two extremes - either strong recommendation to people how to behave to minimise risks (WFH, no indoor contacts etc) or complete legally enforced with the army on the street lockdown. The economy needed some stuff kept going - food, energy etc. So the mistake was to prepare laws to try to set out what was and wasn't allowed, because Barrack Room Lawyer country we are, twats everywhere will immediately start looking for loopholes and edge cases. As indeed happened.
    See for example 'substantial meal'.
    Clearly the intention was that socialising stopped. Yet if people were working together in an office all day, its not much of a leap to see how a coffee break at 3 becomes a glass of wine at 7. They were undoubtedly working under high stress and pressure.*
    It wasn't right, they should not have done it. The laws were difficult, and not well set out or explained.
    But the vase majority of the country did their best. Those in No 10 did not, and the price is being extracted now. I hope for the Grey report next week. That may be the moment. Or it may be after the locals as the Tory MP's in the marginal seats realise that there is only two years to go to turn things around.

    *A lot of people were working under high stress and pressure, not least in hospitals. Some of the stories were amazing - people living away from home to avoid bringing covid home. Many staff changing cloths in porches before going into their homes. And if some of them shared a drink after a shift I couldn't give a shit.
  • Options

    Good to see Max and Bartholomew Roberts supporting the Rwanda policy. Even Big G NorthWales would appear to support it and yet the attacks on poor HYUFD continue.

    I want to see the detail of the scheme before passing judgement
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    That's a rational and well-argued case, Turbo, but based on a misapprehension.

    You fail to appreciate that Boris's conduct is driven by a huge sense of entitlement. Many of those who surround him feel the same. Laws are for me and thee, not for them. Once you understand that, you understand how behaviour which to normal people would be regarded as unacceptable is brushed aside.

    It's not complicated, really. He was entirely sincere in his pleadings. He just didn't think the rules applied to him, or his mates.

    If you have any doubt about this, don't just look at partygate; look at his whole career, his whole life.
    I agree with you - I'm just putting a counter argument up for discussion.

    He's a shit and the sooner he is gone the better.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,525
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.

    Everyone active in stopping it will never ever vote Conservative. That's the political angle for the Tories.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,418

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    That's a rational and well-argued case, Turbo, but based on a misapprehension.

    You fail to appreciate that Boris's conduct is driven by a huge sense of entitlement. Many of those who surround him feel the same. Laws are for me and thee, not for them. Once you understand that, you understand how behaviour which to normal people would be regarded as unacceptable is brushed aside.

    It's not complicated, really. He was entirely sincere in his pleadings. He just didn't think the rules applied to him, or his mates.

    If you have any doubt about this, don't just look at partygate; look at his whole career, his whole life.
    I agree with you - I'm just putting a counter argument up for discussion.

    He's a shit and the sooner he is gone the better.
    Unfortunately, some stools do an excellent job of floating and not flushing.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    edited April 2022

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,434

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    That's a rational and well-argued case, Turbo, but based on a misapprehension.

    You fail to appreciate that Boris's conduct is driven by a huge sense of entitlement. Many of those who surround him feel the same. Laws are for me and thee, not for them. Once you understand that, you understand how behaviour which to normal people would be regarded as unacceptable is brushed aside.

    It's not complicated, really. He was entirely sincere in his pleadings. He just didn't think the rules applied to him, or his mates.

    If you have any doubt about this, don't just look at partygate; look at his whole career, his whole life.
    I think this is fair comment. But you also need to see the historic context which, certainly, Boris does. He is a historian of a sort.

    Churchill, Lloyd George, Disraeli, etc. (the predecessors that most appeal to BJ) all led fairly rackety lives, were pretty cynical in many respects, and rode out crises which would have felled other politicians. And yet, looking back, we all forget that stuff, and remember them as consequential figures. I suspect Boris thinks like that. If so, it explains a lot.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    IshmaelZ said:

    Jonathan said:

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    Against that you have the fact there’s no one waiting in the wings and Boris will destroy any potential rival.

    My best hunch is Javid, who has weathered the storm. But he’s a long shot.
    Not completely

    https://www.ft.com/content/647eb171-1cf3-4561-b85d-55d499300367

    “It’s not entirely clear the basis of his non-domicile status,” said Dan Neidle, former head of tax at Clifford Chance, the law firm. “On the face of it, it seems a bit racier than Mrs Sunak’s claim.”

    Nimesh Shah, chief executive at Blick Rothenberg, an accountancy firm, added there was “a question mark” over Javid’s non-dom status. “He was born here, he’s lived here most of his life. Whilst legally, there is a question mark here, this whole law is all very subjective . . . But his claim is not as strong.”

    Javid held non-dom status for an unspecified period during the two decades when he was a wealthy globe-trotting banker.

    Tax laws are always going to be grey. We have the notion of self-assessment, which means it is the judgement of the tax payer to declare income and the tax treatment of their affairs, and then for HMRC to decide to challenge that assessment if they so wish.

    Until a tax case is tested in tribunals and the such we can;t really judge. We can draw inference from other cases, and what an interpretation of the rules are, but there's always a subjectiveness there,
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    The 'nothing much' defence might have worked had he fessed up at the start and not spent months lying about it.
    It would still have angered a lot of people, but an apology might have been believed by many, too.

    As it is, it's valiantly obvious he's taking the piss, and doesn't give a damn about laws if he thinks he can get away something. That is simply not someone you want as PM, and to your great credit you are one of his supporters who recognises that.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    Musk is smart enough not to blatantly abuse what's becoming an effective monopoly position.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    MaxPB said:

    £120m cost of the scheme. Even at 10x the cost it's good value.

    The idea that we could fund a UK based immigration inspection team to go and check the immigration status of workers in businesses for £120m is laughable. That's a £2-3bn per year cost of expanding the border agency with thousands of agents needing to be recruited in a very tight labour market.

    Just in case RP is looking for the costs.

    Trivial to make it self funding and self prosecuting. No government involvement required.

    100K fine per undocumented worker.

    50% goes to the undocumented worker. Providing they give evidence and there is a conviction that is upheld on appeal.
    That's essentially just Operation Papyrus from Switzerland, but offering money rather than a work permit.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,979
    Nigelb said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    Musk is smart enough not to blatantly abuse what's becoming an effective monopoly position.
    Having said that, at the same time SpaceX suddenly stopped their rideshare agreement with Spaceflight, Inc. SpaceX have their own rideshare service...

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/12/spacex-pushes-spaceflight-inc-out-the-airlock/
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    The garden one was the clearer breach imo. For a start, the fact they were sort of half-complying with the rules shows they did remember there are rules. But if you look at Boris's table, it must have been obvious even to Boris that he was mixing work (Dominic Cummings) and family (Carrie & Wilf). And that is betting without "bring your own booze".
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Let he who is without sin cake, throw the first stone.

    Shouldn't that be scone ?
    Dpends on the quality of the bake!
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620

    Good to see Max and Bartholomew Roberts supporting the Rwanda policy. Even Big G NorthWales would appear to support it and yet the attacks on poor HYUFD continue.

    Are you ever going to post anything constructive? Although HYUFD does drive us mad at times he always engages in debate, although sometimes it's difficult to get a handle on it. You ought to try it.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.

    Everyone active in stopping it will never ever vote Conservative. That's the political angle for the Tories.
    Of course - it's designed to bring out the handwringers onto Twitter, PB, etc., who want fully open borders to admit it. Works every time.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited April 2022
    .
    kjh said:

    Good to see Max and Bartholomew Roberts supporting the Rwanda policy. Even Big G NorthWales would appear to support it and yet the attacks on poor HYUFD continue.

    Are you ever going to post anything constructive? Although HYUFD does drive us mad at times he always engages in debate, although sometimes it's difficult to get a handle on it. You ought to try it.
    We found out pretty conclusively yesterday that this particular poster is a sockpuppet/reincarnation.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    Nigelb said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    Musk is smart enough not to blatantly abuse what's becoming an effective monopoly position.
    Indeed - various people are sniffing around the concept of vertical integration. Doing these launches is a killer for any anti-trust case.

    Apparently SpaceX gave them the same price per launch as the last couple of launches they booked for other customers. And sent engineers to help adapting the payload dispenser.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,386

    Good morning, everyone.

    With more time, I could do a better job, but in the meantime...

    Which one's the Loan Arranger, and which one's Tonto?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176

    My view on this is not popular, but what the hell. I will preface that I want Johnson to go asap, if not before. He is a disgrace, unsuited to running a whelk stall. He is a liar, a cheat, a serial love rat, clearly only interested in Boris Johnson.

    However, in the case the the 'parties' I can genuinely see how he became convinced that it was within guidelines. Take the one he has already been fined for. For a start it was in the cabinet room where he was working. Secondly the people there were also working in No 10 too. And it was for a very short amount of time (under the mythical, and forgotten 15 minutes). In no sense was this a party, yet the name has been attached to it. If thats the only type of parties you ever attend then you have lived a dull life.

    We don't yet know the other occasions he is likely to be fined for. It may be the infamous garden one - where the photo clearly shows people outside and socially distanced. Again, he may have been convinced this was within the guidelines.

    So did he lie in the house? If he genuinely believed the events as described above were in the guideines then no. The Met have chosen to interpret the law otherwise. I note it is unlikely to be challenged in court, even though those receiving the FPNs have the right to contest it. We have seen consistently that many many challenged fines were revoked, usually because the police didn't understand what they were enforcing.

    While its tempting to blame the police, I actually blame those who created the laws. They were always a nonsense. And the messaging was also confused. Most people seem to think it was the law that you could leave the house once a day for exercise and for not more than 1 hour. That was never the law - it was a suggested sensible approach.

    And so at heart, the reasons Johnson should go are many and various, but I am happy to believe he did not knowingly lie in the house.

    The garden one was the clearer breach imo. For a start, the fact they were sort of half-complying with the rules shows they did remember there are rules. But if you look at Boris's table, it must have been obvious even to Boris that he was mixing work (Dominic Cummings) and family (Carrie & Wilf). And that is betting without "bring your own booze".
    I thought you could meet one person in the garden at the time?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    £120m cost of the scheme. Even at 10x the cost it's good value.

    The idea that we could fund a UK based immigration inspection team to go and check the immigration status of workers in businesses for £120m is laughable. That's a £2-3bn per year cost of expanding the border agency with thousands of agents needing to be recruited in a very tight labour market.

    Just in case RP is looking for the costs.

    Trivial to make it self funding and self prosecuting. No government involvement required.

    100K fine per undocumented worker.

    50% goes to the undocumented worker. Providing they give evidence and there is a conviction that is upheld on appeal.
    That's essentially just Operation Papyrus from Switzerland, but offering money rather than a work permit.
    Interesting - hell, throw in a 5 year work permit with the 50K.

    There wouldn't be an undocumented employee in the country within 20 minutes of the law going into force, though.

    And since you'd have to make the prosecution start point the implementation of the law (otherwise a lot of businesses sued out of existence), probably no prosecutions, either.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,434

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
    No postwar PM has really gone voluntarily. Either defeated at an election (Attlee, Douglas-Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major, Brown) resigned due to health concerns (Churchill, Macmillan, Wilson) or due to circumstances which made staying on untenable (Eden, Thatcher, Blair, May, Cameron). So, maybe, being a first in that respect might appeal to BJ?
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,790
    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
  • Options
    Rishi Sunak has seen an extraordinary fall.

    Of course I said it would never last. And I was right.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,979

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    Incidentally, I listened to a podcast recently with an old-time Arianespace manager. In real terms, the Ariane 4 was 40% cheaper to launch at its final launch than it was at its first. Things like piggybacking aluminium orders onto the back of aerospace contracts to get bulk discounts. ISTR he also said roughly the same was true for Ariane 5.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,418

    Good morning, everyone.

    With more time, I could do a better job, but in the meantime...

    Which one's the Loan Arranger, and which one's Tonto?
    I thought Rishi didn't like us calling the fuel bill loans that?

    And they're both pretty Tonto at the moment.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
    And yet people go crazy about this one without knowing a speck of detail. How many cross-channel illegals from the UKI have ended up in Rwanda?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
    No postwar PM has really gone voluntarily. Either defeated at an election (Attlee, Douglas-Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major, Brown) resigned due to health concerns (Churchill, Macmillan, Wilson) or due to circumstances which made staying on untenable (Eden, Thatcher, Blair, May, Cameron). So, maybe, being a first in that respect might appeal to BJ?
    Being PM is quite close to being a God King. The power, adulation, RAF jets - just being incredibly rich doesn't come close. Gordon Brown was moaning the other day that it took him a year's hard work and lobbying to bring about some change or other, which when he ruled the world would have needed the 3 words, Make it so. Can't see anyone letting it go.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    And what has resulted from that ?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Rishi Sunak has seen an extraordinary fall.

    Of course I said it would never last. And I was right.

    You're a veritable seer for the age - who ever knew politics was an up and down game?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,501
    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Are 36 Oneweb satellites still stuck in Russia?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    .

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
    No postwar PM has really gone voluntarily. Either defeated at an election (Attlee, Douglas-Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major, Brown) resigned due to health concerns (Churchill, Macmillan, Wilson) or due to circumstances which made staying on untenable (Eden, Thatcher, Blair, May, Cameron). So, maybe, being a first in that respect might appeal to BJ?
    Blair pretty much left on his own terms in 2007 - with pretty fortuitous timing.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,979

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    There will be plenty of competitors, even in the US. Blue Origin on the large side, and whatever ULA is allowed to make after Vulcan/Centaur. On the small side, Rocketlab, firefly, Astra, VO, etc, etc. Then there will be the international rivals (can Rocketlab be classed as American?)

    The real question is whether SpaceX's SH/SS combination works. The jury is very much out on that. I'd give it an 90% chance of being made to work, but only 10% chance of meeting the performance objectives Musk has set it.

    But those figures have been plucked out of my backside. ;)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Are 36 Oneweb satellites still stuck in Russia?
    Considered lost, is my understanding. The chain of custody has broken down, so they are assumed compromised.

    The next generation satellites are already beginning production, I believe.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    And what has resulted from that ?
    No more than has resulted from the UK deal so far. I missed the howls of protest about the Denmark one however.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited April 2022

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
    No postwar PM has really gone voluntarily. Either defeated at an election (Attlee, Douglas-Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major, Brown) resigned due to health concerns (Churchill, Macmillan, Wilson) or due to circumstances which made staying on untenable (Eden, Thatcher, Blair, May, Cameron). So, maybe, being a first in that respect might appeal to BJ?
    Whenever he leaves, it'll either be at least as much "staying on untenable" as a couple of those (if before the next election) or at the next election.
  • Options
    felix said:

    Rishi Sunak has seen an extraordinary fall.

    Of course I said it would never last. And I was right.

    You're a veritable seer for the age - who ever knew politics was an up and down game?
    How you doing felix?
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,790
    felix said:

    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
    And yet people go crazy about this one without knowing a speck of detail. How many cross-channel illegals from the UKI have ended up in Rwanda?
    The problems with the proposal is won’t the traffickers just move to take more families and determining the age of single males if they don’t have passports . The increase in crossings is strongly correlated with the end of the Brexit transition period . Patel thinks it’s more palatable to pay a shed load of money to Rwanda than increase payments to the French !
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    Incidentally, I listened to a podcast recently with an old-time Arianespace manager. In real terms, the Ariane 4 was 40% cheaper to launch at its final launch than it was at its first. Things like piggybacking aluminium orders onto the back of aerospace contracts to get bulk discounts. ISTR he also said roughly the same was true for Ariane 5.
    The big problem is that Ariane has a requirement to be expensive.

    The French insist on solid boosters to support the solid rocket industry, and so on...

    The design of Ariane 6 was about making all the owners of the pieces of the space industrial complex in Europe happy, rather than reducing costs.

    As Stéphane Israël commented - if he made his rockets reusable, what would all the engineers do for the rest of the year?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Are 36 Oneweb satellites still stuck in Russia?
    Good question. Their people all left Bykonur without them, so would assume they’re considered lost. Even if they get them back, they won’t be fit for launch if the Russians had unfettered access to them.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Are 36 Oneweb satellites still stuck in Russia?
    Considered lost, is my understanding. The chain of custody has broken down, so they are assumed compromised.

    The next generation satellites are already beginning production, I believe.
    FPT

    Do you have any more info re. IJN "Zuma Class" cruisers?
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    I reckon there is maybe 30% of the voters who think Boris is being hung out to try for nothing much - let him get on with the job. There's a few % more who think Starmer is a bit rubbish so stick with what they have.

    But it is not enough to counter the lost millions saying "I won't vote for a liar." That reality will seep into the consciousness of Tory MPs. And into that of Boris too.

    Boris wants to be remembered for winning an 80 seat majority. He does NOT want to be remembered as the PM who lost an 80 seat majority - to someone who is a bit rubbish. Those who think Boris will plough on regardless are reading the man all wrong.

    He'll be gone next year.

    I think the only recent PM who really didn't want the job (towards the later part, at least) was Major, and he fought on till the end.

    Think of Brown - it was utterly clear that the job made him miserable. In a perfectly rational world, he would have arranged a leadership election in the Labour Party, anointed his successor and walked out of the door to a happier life. Instead he hung on and on.

    Politicians are utterly driven to hang on until the bitter end. By the time they get to the top, they've fought endless elections/votes - selection for councils, councils, selections for MP, elections as MP etc etc.
    But Brown had to stay on to, er, save the world. He was trapped by circumstances.

    What has Boris got left to achieve? Levelling up? He can make a start but that is a thirty year project.

    "PM" is already on his CV. Continuing as PM doesn't add anything. It also detracts from opportunities to make some serious money.

    No, he'll be gone next year.
    No postwar PM has really gone voluntarily. Either defeated at an election (Attlee, Douglas-Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major, Brown) resigned due to health concerns (Churchill, Macmillan, Wilson) or due to circumstances which made staying on untenable (Eden, Thatcher, Blair, May, Cameron). So, maybe, being a first in that respect might appeal to BJ?
    Boris is somewhat unlike previous PMs though. My hunch is that he will go within next 12 months. If he can time it so it looks like some kind of "job done" (e.g. end of hostilities in Ukraine) then so much the better from his viewpoint.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    edited April 2022
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    And what has resulted from that ?
    No more than has resulted from the UK deal so far. I missed the howls of protest about the Denmark one however.
    There were plenty in Europe.
    Not least because the deal was just smoke to distract from passing off their refugee obligations on their immediate neighbours.
    https://ecre.org/denmark-meps-confront-danish-minister-on-rogue-asylum-policies-as-syrians-flee-to-other-member-states/

    The African Union took a pretty dim view, too.
    https://au.int/en/pressreleases/20210802/press-statement-denmarks-alien-act-provision-externalize-asylum-procedures
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    edited April 2022

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    Incidentally, I listened to a podcast recently with an old-time Arianespace manager. In real terms, the Ariane 4 was 40% cheaper to launch at its final launch than it was at its first. Things like piggybacking aluminium orders onto the back of aerospace contracts to get bulk discounts. ISTR he also said roughly the same was true for Ariane 5.
    The big problem is that Ariane has a requirement to be expensive.

    The French insist on solid boosters to support the solid rocket industry, and so on...

    The design of Ariane 6 was about making all the owners of the pieces of the space industrial complex in Europe happy, rather than reducing costs.

    As Stéphane Israël commented - if he made his rockets reusable, what would all the engineers do for the rest of the year?
    The biggest achievement of SpaceX is to show what can be done when the end result is the achievement, rather than the allocation of spending.

    When the project was run by government, whether in the US or Europe, all the people with the money - the politicians - cared about, was that the project supported jobs local to themselves. This being irrespective of whether the actual mission ever got flown, in fact there were bonus points for running late and over budget, as the politicians could support the local jobs for longer and argue about sunk costs.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
    And yet people go crazy about this one without knowing a speck of detail. How many cross-channel illegals from the UKI have ended up in Rwanda?
    The problems with the proposal is won’t the traffickers just move to take more families and determining the age of single males if they don’t have passports . The increase in crossings is strongly correlated with the end of the Brexit transition period . Patel thinks it’s more palatable to pay a shed load of money to Rwanda than increase payments to the French !
    Or.... we could wait to see the details before passinmg judgement.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
    And yet people go crazy about this one without knowing a speck of detail. How many cross-channel illegals from the UKI have ended up in Rwanda?
    The problems with the proposal is won’t the traffickers just move to take more families and determining the age of single males if they don’t have passports . The increase in crossings is strongly correlated with the end of the Brexit transition period . Patel thinks it’s more palatable to pay a shed load of money to Rwanda than increase payments to the French !
    An issue is the destruction of documents. This is quite standard for the cross channel illegal entry method.

    The original suggestion for this was that people trying to enter without documents would be sent to an overseas processing centre, IIRC.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    If the Rwanda announcement is intended to reignite the culture war and get the Tories back on safe lib-owning territory then, morality aside, I'm not sure it does the PR job it intends.

    Bear in mind most people know very little about Rwanda (nowadays an economically fairly successful and stable country but with an authoritarian government) but what they do know is that a. it had a genocide, b. it's a long way away in an exotic country. So I'd have thought the public reaction is going to be:

    - That sounds dangerous
    - That sounds expensive
    - That sounds like it's depending on another unreliable country

    Not sure anyone, even the most gullible, is going to believe this will only cost £120 million.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    The Constitution Unit.
    Unit Director Meg Russell on @thetimes letters page:

    "The prime minister & chancellor have broken the ministerial code on two counts [law breaking & misleading parliament]... Both are resigning matters, but the keeper of the code is the PM himself"

    https://twitter.com/ConUnit_UCL/status/1514365548435550210
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    And what has resulted from that ?
    No more than has resulted from the UK deal so far. I missed the howls of protest about the Denmark one however.
    There were plenty in Europe.
    Not least because the deal was just smoke to distract from passing off their refugee obligations on their immediate neighbours.
    https://ecre.org/denmark-meps-confront-danish-minister-on-rogue-asylum-policies-as-syrians-flee-to-other-member-states/

    The African Union took a pretty dim view, too.
    https://au.int/en/pressreleases/20210802/press-statement-denmarks-alien-act-provision-externalize-asylum-procedures
    Yes, people tend to think "if it wasn't reported in the British press it didn't happen".
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    felix said:

    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    nico679 said:

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rwanda: the thing about the third world is it's third world. The correct response to the thought of being a penniless friendless non-white prisoner there is not frustration with the inconvenience and delay, it's stark terror.

    I am sure there will be some flannel about welfare being observed and monitored. It will be bollocks.

    The BBC is curiously misleading in its extensive coverage, including headlines like "UK to give migrants one way ticket to Rwanda".... as if it is a future fact.

    It isn't. It's just about policy and presentation; it is not possible to implement, has not been legislated, drafting its laws without direct or indirect discrimination will be impossible, the courts will block it, and it will be impossible to do it without it backfiring.
    Hasn't Denmark already passed a law to do this and signed an MOU with Rwanda last year?

    https://twitter.com/RwandaMFA/status/1389630931254890500
    Can 't be true - they're in the EU and no-one in the EU does anything wrong.
    A MOU is not a finalized deal and no refugees have ended up in Rwanda .
    And yet people go crazy about this one without knowing a speck of detail. How many cross-channel illegals from the UKI have ended up in Rwanda?
    The problems with the proposal is won’t the traffickers just move to take more families and determining the age of single males if they don’t have passports . The increase in crossings is strongly correlated with the end of the Brexit transition period . Patel thinks it’s more palatable to pay a shed load of money to Rwanda than increase payments to the French !
    Or.... we could wait to see the details before passinmg judgement.
    You want to wait for the actual detail of a government policy, before mouthing off in opposition to it? Heresy!
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,189
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Rishi Sunak has seen an extraordinary fall.

    Of course I said it would never last. And I was right.

    You're a veritable seer for the age - who ever knew politics was an up and down game?
    How you doing felix?
    Good - off to a celebratory lunch for my 68th later!
    Have a good time! 👍
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    There will be plenty of competitors, even in the US. Blue Origin on the large side, and whatever ULA is allowed to make after Vulcan/Centaur. On the small side, Rocketlab, firefly, Astra, VO, etc, etc. Then there will be the international rivals (can Rocketlab be classed as American?)

    The real question is whether SpaceX's SH/SS combination works. The jury is very much out on that. I'd give it an 90% chance of being made to work, but only 10% chance of meeting the performance objectives Musk has set it.

    But those figures have been plucked out of my backside. ;)
    On cost - Vulcan can't compete with F9.

    The international small sat launchers have some chance - but the rideshare price from SpaceX undercuts them on raw price. For specialist services they do have some market, though.

    Sue Origin needs to make orbit. Unless Bezos simply swallows the development costs, their prices won't be competitive.

    SH/SS with an expendable user stage (Starship) would still be cheaper than F9 per ton. There is no doubt, in my mind, that they can make SH reusable - it's just a bigger version of what they are already doing with the F9 first stage.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election

    Because they can't find someone more disreputable at such short notice?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Rishi Sunak has seen an extraordinary fall.

    Of course I said it would never last. And I was right.

    You're a veritable seer for the age - who ever knew politics was an up and down game?
    How you doing felix?
    Good - off to a celebratory lunch for my 68th later!
    Happy birthday mate, have a good one!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,979

    Sandpit said:

    This is the sort of self-delusion Russia is suffering from:

    “Everything that we’ve seen during our visit to Vostochny, all successes in space exploration achieved in recent years prove that our country retains its leadership in space industry, is one of the leaders in this area,” President Vladimir Putin said.

    http://www.parabolicarc.com/2022/04/13/putin-celebrates-gagarin-flight-anniversary-vows-russia-will-remain-a-leader-in-space-amid-sanctions/

    They were a leader in the space industry, decades ago. Since then, they have relied on old rocket designs that were reliable. They have very little that is *new*. Their commercial launches came because they were cheap and reliable - even Arianespace used a Soyuz for some launches.

    But their offerings are being left behind. Not just with SpaceX in the US, but companies like RocketLab and others. And other states who might once have booked rides have their own space programs.

    The real killer for their program is the invasion. Few commercial companies will continue to go with a Russian launcher after the problems OneWeb and others have been caused.

    I fully expect Russia's 'leadership' in space to vanish, and for them to be left with one or two military launches of their own each year. So much for 'leadership'.

    The Russian international space program is dead. Apart from NASA swapping seats no one is going to fly astronauts with the Russians. SpaceX is cheaper and better, now.

    For the unmanned stuff - no-one is going to fly Russian rockets anymore. The question is how ESA pivots. The block buy from Bezos has given some life to Ariane 6 - is that enough to kill off the planned move of the "cheap" launches away from the Russians (contracted through ESA) to a reusable European rocket?

    An interesting point within this was that OneWeb got SpaceX rides very rapidly - negotiations took 72 hours, according to OneWeb.
    SpaceX and OneWeb was a win-win.

    The Americans got the cash for the launches, as well as a good defence against accusations of monopoly for Starlink. The Brits got their satellites launched cheaply and quickly, and managed to get away from having to rely on the Russians.

    The big remaining issue is the ISS, and the hope that Russia doesn’t bring the project to an early end. It’s been one of the best things humans have ever done, certainly one of the most expensive, and has survived more than three decades of political trouble up to now.
    Someone needs to pull their finger out and build a competitor to SpaceX.

    Ariane 6 may have won some orders from Bezos, but it is very much the best 1990s rocket.

    ISS is nearly past it's sell buy date. Thermal cycling twice each orbit and all that.

    The future is NASA as anchor tenant for a mixed public/private station - see Axiom and their plans.
    Incidentally, I listened to a podcast recently with an old-time Arianespace manager. In real terms, the Ariane 4 was 40% cheaper to launch at its final launch than it was at its first. Things like piggybacking aluminium orders onto the back of aerospace contracts to get bulk discounts. ISTR he also said roughly the same was true for Ariane 5.
    The big problem is that Ariane has a requirement to be expensive.

    The French insist on solid boosters to support the solid rocket industry, and so on...

    The design of Ariane 6 was about making all the owners of the pieces of the space industrial complex in Europe happy, rather than reducing costs.

    As Stéphane Israël commented - if he made his rockets reusable, what would all the engineers do for the rest of the year?
    I think historically it's been a little more complex than that. A couple of decades ago (Ariane 5 dev period?) Arianespace did a study into reusability. They judged it not cost-effective as there was not enough demand for launches.

    It should be noted that (most/many?) of SpaceX launches are 'internal' ones for Starlink.

    Incidentally, von Braun also did a study into reusing Saturn V via a winged-flyback iC stage. From memory, they would need over 100 launches to make it pay. Leaving that to one side, imagine what we could have done with over 100 Saturn V launches...
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