PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to do so without resorting to violence.
Although given how belligerent some of the fans of fisticuffs are on here it is no shock they support this needless escalation.
I think there is an inverse relationship between those who are fans of fisticuffs and those who have indulged or had to indulge in fisticuffs. Is my betting.
True, although by that yardstick I should be one of the greatest advocates of fisticuffs.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Your post is fine, except you don't define the parameters for "are entitled to defend themselves". Are they allowed to respond with angry profanity? Are they allowed to administer a good spanking? Are they allowed to empty the contents of a Glock into the aggressor?
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
I would advise anyone of any age to learn some form of combat skill. It does wonders for confidence, bearing, and a whole other bunch of stuff. Perhaps most importantly it can, if taught correctly, instill a non-victim mentality which in itself can head off problems before they become problems.
I do boxing as you know. Soon as I've shaken this wretched Covid off I'll be back at the bag.
Good for you. It all helps. More helpful would be if you jump into the ring with someone. Doesn't have to be crazy but having someone try to hit you is (a) very useful experience.
Big step, that, at my age. But thank you and noted.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
Verbal abuse can have fatal consequences. Why is physical violence in response to verbal abuse "disproportionate"?
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
I would advise anyone of any age to learn some form of combat skill. It does wonders for confidence, bearing, and a whole other bunch of stuff. Perhaps most importantly it can, if taught correctly, instill a non-victim mentality which in itself can head off problems before they become problems.
I do boxing as you know. Soon as I've shaken this wretched Covid off I'll be back at the bag.
Good for you. It all helps. More helpful would be if you jump into the ring with someone. Doesn't have to be crazy but having someone try to hit you is (a) very useful experience.
Big step, that, at my age. But thank you and noted.
If you're in the right gym it should be fine - people normally start off with body sparring and then see how it goes. I hope there are no egos in your gym and if there are then don't choose them! I bet you love it; it's quite addictive.
Idly scanning the press as I pas the bug-ridden time, I see two Times bits that made me raise an eyebrow:
"[The Turkish mediator proposed that] “Crimea and Donbas should be held by Moscow under a long-term lease, similar to Britain’s control over Hong Kong from 1898 to 1997, with their future decided at a later date”
- could be a possibility, maybe? Enables Ukraine to say they've not given up a ninch of soil, merely temporarily recignising the de facto situation, and Russia to say they've secured recognition for several decades. By the end of the period, both governments might look very different.
Also, "39 per cent of the French population would like an unelected strongman in charge."
Turkish intelligence claiming that four Armenian jets (and pilots for the same) are going to take part in the war in Ukraine. Putin is pulling on every lever.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
This is an important point for those chomping at the bit to defend easy resorting to physical violence as acceptable.
Self defence covers you a lot more than people might think it does from reading the Daily Mail about home owners defending themselves from burglars etc, but it still is not completely bonkers.
I still stand by my toe trodding analogy. A reaction, even possibly physical in that scenario, might be appropriate, but not without limits. And naughty words hurt and are not to be dismissed as nothing, it can even be abuse. But breaking out the fists?
Don't be so bloody childish (ironically - since I was taught it was ok to hit people if they hit me first, but not to be the first to hit).
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
"A source with direct knowledge has just confirmed to me the WSJ/Bellingcat reports that Abramovich suffered symptoms of poisoning. "Roman lost his sight for several hours" and was treated in Turkey, the source said."
Sounds pretty serious. Abramovich has been scared of poisoning for a good few years - famously refused food and water at Chelsea's away matches.
Idly scanning the press as I pas the bug-ridden time, I see two Times bits that made me raise an eyebrow:
"[The Turkish mediator proposed that] “Crimea and Donbas should be held by Moscow under a long-term lease, similar to Britain’s control over Hong Kong from 1898 to 1997, with their future decided at a later date”
- could be a possibility, maybe? Enables Ukraine to say they've not given up a ninch of soil, merely temporarily recignising the de facto situation, and Russia to say they've secured recognition for several decades. By the end of the period, both governments might look very different.
Also, "39 per cent of the French population would like an unelected strongman in charge."
WTAF?
LOL at the last bit. How would they, er, elect such a person to that position.
They already have. He fulfils all the requirements: thinks he's a direct descendent of Napoleon and Louis XIV; hates the English; etc.
The Oscars have always been about backslapping bullshit. The idea anyone could bemoan a decline in quality is risible.
The decline is in the quality of the films honoured, not in the ceremony itself (which has indeed been awful for as long as I can remember). But, the main awards - particularly Best Picture - used fairly often to be films lots of people had actually seen: the last one to break $100m at the US box office was in 2013, and the last to break $200m was Lord of the Rings in 2004.
Yes, fair.
Hollywood has been fucked by a combination of Marvel and Netflix.
I struggle to care about many new films these days. Yet I’d seen every film on that 1994 list published upthread.
And no, it’s not just age.
I've seen a couple of persuasive essays which make this point. Movies (like music) have got objectively worse in the last two decades. It's not just nostalgia and Fings Aint Wot They Used To Be, it is a real and measurable decline: even the vocabulary in the scripts has got simpler and more child-like
There are multiple reasons, from the death of the (hugely profitable) DVD to the decline in budgets to the advent of streaming to the atomising of audiences
One big reason is the rise of the Chinese and other markets. These are huge and irresistible for Hollywood studios under financial pressure, so movies are dumbed down so they can cross all cultures, and sell in Beijing as well as Brooklyn (hence all the Marvel/superhero/Star Wars bollocks); meanwhile the arthouse movie audience has almost completely vanished, decamped to watch excellent TV drama (which doesn't need Chinese/Indian/Brazilian audiences so can be really smart/meta/witty/rude)
It's a golden age for TV drama and video games. It's decline and fall for movies and music. Discuss
Not just about dumbing down for Chinese market, because limited slots per year for a Western film and the very strict censorship rules, you are going to resort to a certain type of film.
I think TV is somewhat in a slump at the moment. A lot of the big budget tv shows / primetime slots for the big networks like HBO aren't really very good. The big hit of the last few months, a weird South Korean show. Stuff like the Foundation on Apple+ weren't very good, despite mega bucks being plowed into it. There is nothing at the moment I am desperate to see the next episode. Severance is vaguely interesting.
There's a definitely a dip in TV quality. Foundation is ponderous, as is the other big fantasy thing, whose name escapes me it is so ephemeral (yet cost $$$$$)
However I am still finding decent stuff. The new Vikings Valhalla is a pretty good iteration (despite the hint of Woke creeping in). I am enjoying an excellent Danish history, 1864 (I think it's a few years old) about a mad nationalist invasion of another European country (it is incredibly timely, of course, but it is also good. Recommended). Mare of Easttown is gritty and moving. Succession is superb
And of course there is THE GREAT. Probably the funniest historical comedy ever made, a work of genius, and renewed for a new season
The quality is somewhat down, but we have been feasting on absolute riches for years, and maybe this is just a Covid hiatus, and the real good times will return
TV has always had good years and had years.
In the last two decades, we've had the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Succession, Curb Your Enthusiasm and also a bunch of utter shit.
There have been an awful lot of decent first series, that failed in their second or third, that we don't remember (or just remember the decline): Ted Lasso, Shut Eye, Lost, Desperate Housewives.
I think that's a pretty good haul for the last two decades.
Yes but sopranos breaking bad, the wire, mad men all quite old now rather proving my point that TV likely peaked in the 2010s
Last few years: Succession, Superstore, Top Boy, This is Us, Fargo, Black Mirror.
Some people like The Marvellous Mrs Maisel, Mrs America.
Then some great limited series: Small Axe, When They See Us, Chernobyl, The Night Of.
My daughter is obsessed with the Marvelous and Chernobyl was outstanding.
Everything about Chernobyl was superb. The constant low level hum/beat/sound which permeated nearly every scene reminded me of the same in Dunkirk, which rightly won an Oscar for sound. Oh damn and we're back to the Oscars..
Best TV show I've seen in years.
I do think there has been a bit of a downward trend in great stuff in the last 5-7 years, but there is still some good stuff out there.
Idly scanning the press as I pas the bug-ridden time, I see two Times bits that made me raise an eyebrow:
"[The Turkish mediator proposed that] “Crimea and Donbas should be held by Moscow under a long-term lease, similar to Britain’s control over Hong Kong from 1898 to 1997, with their future decided at a later date”
- could be a possibility, maybe? Enables Ukraine to say they've not given up a ninch of soil, merely temporarily recignising the de facto situation, and Russia to say they've secured recognition for several decades. By the end of the period, both governments might look very different.
Also, "39 per cent of the French population would like an unelected strongman in charge."
WTAF?
LOL at the last bit. How would they, er, elect such a person to that position.
More to the point, this is the first time I recall seeing Nick Palmer swearing.
Though I agree it is merited and can think of few other reactions.
My understanding is that France is not a country particularly at ease with itself right now. The ex-generals warning of a civil war was one of many straws in the wind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56899765
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Your post is fine, except you don't define the parameters for "are entitled to defend themselves". Are they allowed to respond with angry profanity? Are they allowed to administer a good spanking? Are they allowed to empty the contents of a Glock into the aggressor?
There's no need to define the parameters.
There's a reason I like the Common Law system where these things are deliberately left vague and left to the "reasonable person" to determine what is "reasonable".
It seems plenty of reasonable people believe that Chris Rock got what he deserved, and I rather suspect that includes Chris Rock (!) - he chose already and has made it clear that he is not going to press charges.
Everyone has the freedom to decide for themselves what is reasonable and what is not, and it depends upon the situation. In this situation, I don't think a slap was unreasonable and it was self-defence of his wife.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to do so without resorting to violence.
Although given how belligerent some of the fans of fisticuffs are on here it is no shock they support this needless escalation.
I think there is an inverse relationship between those who are fans of fisticuffs and those who have indulged or had to indulge in fisticuffs. Is my betting.
It's certainly a very cavalier attitude toward the prospect of physical violence. I wouldn't diminish the potential impact of mere words, but physical is a major line to cross. Sometimes people who have experienced it very little or way too much can be equally blase about the prospect.
"A source with direct knowledge has just confirmed to me the WSJ/Bellingcat reports that Abramovich suffered symptoms of poisoning. "Roman lost his sight for several hours" and was treated in Turkey, the source said."
Sounds pretty serious. Abramovich has been scared of poisoning for a good few years - famously refused food and water at Chelsea's away matches.
If true - does this mean we give Chelsea back as a get well present?
"Bellingcat can confirm that three members of the delegation attending the peace talks between Ukraine and Russia on the night of 3 to 4 March 2022 experienced symptoms consistent with poisoning with chemical weapons. One of victims was Russian entrepreneur Roman Abramovich."
I was expecting chemical weapons to be used in this conflict; this was not the vector I expected. Oddly, as it has been used several times before by one of the players...
One of the characteristics of evil is a complete inifference to human suffering. The Putin regime qualifies high on that score. Indeed their contempt for human life borders on the psychopathic.
Following the meeting in Kyiv, Abramovich as well as two senior members of the Ukrainian team developed symptoms that included red eyes, painful tearing as well as peeling skin on their faces and hands, sources told the newspaper.
Must have been allergic to the complementary warm towels on the plane over there....
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
The Oscars have always been about backslapping bullshit. The idea anyone could bemoan a decline in quality is risible.
The decline is in the quality of the films honoured, not in the ceremony itself (which has indeed been awful for as long as I can remember). But, the main awards - particularly Best Picture - used fairly often to be films lots of people had actually seen: the last one to break $100m at the US box office was in 2013, and the last to break $200m was Lord of the Rings in 2004.
Yes, fair.
Hollywood has been fucked by a combination of Marvel and Netflix.
I struggle to care about many new films these days. Yet I’d seen every film on that 1994 list published upthread.
And no, it’s not just age.
I've seen a couple of persuasive essays which make this point. Movies (like music) have got objectively worse in the last two decades. It's not just nostalgia and Fings Aint Wot They Used To Be, it is a real and measurable decline: even the vocabulary in the scripts has got simpler and more child-like
There are multiple reasons, from the death of the (hugely profitable) DVD to the decline in budgets to the advent of streaming to the atomising of audiences
One big reason is the rise of the Chinese and other markets. These are huge and irresistible for Hollywood studios under financial pressure, so movies are dumbed down so they can cross all cultures, and sell in Beijing as well as Brooklyn (hence all the Marvel/superhero/Star Wars bollocks); meanwhile the arthouse movie audience has almost completely vanished, decamped to watch excellent TV drama (which doesn't need Chinese/Indian/Brazilian audiences so can be really smart/meta/witty/rude)
It's a golden age for TV drama and video games. It's decline and fall for movies and music. Discuss
Not just about dumbing down for Chinese market, because limited slots per year for a Western film and the very strict censorship rules, you are going to resort to a certain type of film.
I think TV is somewhat in a slump at the moment. A lot of the big budget tv shows / primetime slots for the big networks like HBO aren't really very good. The big hit of the last few months, a weird South Korean show. Stuff like the Foundation on Apple+ weren't very good, despite mega bucks being plowed into it. There is nothing at the moment I am desperate to see the next episode. Severance is vaguely interesting.
There's a definitely a dip in TV quality. Foundation is ponderous, as is the other big fantasy thing, whose name escapes me it is so ephemeral (yet cost $$$$$)
However I am still finding decent stuff. The new Vikings Valhalla is a pretty good iteration (despite the hint of Woke creeping in). I am enjoying an excellent Danish history, 1864 (I think it's a few years old) about a mad nationalist invasion of another European country (it is incredibly timely, of course, but it is also good. Recommended). Mare of Easttown is gritty and moving. Succession is superb
And of course there is THE GREAT. Probably the funniest historical comedy ever made, a work of genius, and renewed for a new season
The quality is somewhat down, but we have been feasting on absolute riches for years, and maybe this is just a Covid hiatus, and the real good times will return
TV has always had good years and had years.
In the last two decades, we've had the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Succession, Curb Your Enthusiasm and also a bunch of utter shit.
There have been an awful lot of decent first series, that failed in their second or third, that we don't remember (or just remember the decline): Ted Lasso, Shut Eye, Lost, Desperate Housewives.
I think that's a pretty good haul for the last two decades.
Yes but sopranos breaking bad, the wire, mad men all quite old now rather proving my point that TV likely peaked in the 2010s
Last few years: Succession, Superstore, Top Boy, This is Us, Fargo, Black Mirror.
Some people like The Marvellous Mrs Maisel, Mrs America.
Then some great limited series: Small Axe, When They See Us, Chernobyl, The Night Of.
My daughter is obsessed with the Marvelous and Chernobyl was outstanding.
I love Maisel. It is popcorn, but really good popcorn with excellent condiments.
Rachel Brosnahan is also excellent in the underrated "Manhattan". Cancelled one season too soon, probably to its benefit.
Maisel great. We really enjoyed Ted Lasso. Some real laugh out loud moments
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
Verbal abuse can have fatal consequences. Why is physical violence in response to verbal abuse "disproportionate"?
And any level of physical violence can also be fatal, with higher rates of fatal consequences than verbal abuse. Thus it is out of proportion to the abuse received.
There is a clear hierarchy, established in case law, for very good reason.
To drill down into the details a bit more, suppose you were verbally abused, and you took the defensive step of walking away from the incident, but you were then pursued with more verbal abuse. The fact that the assailant pursued you in this scenario puts it on a higher level in the hierarchy of threat, and would justify a higher level of response as being reasonable in your defence.
It is a graduated thing. We have seen before that you have very on and off thinking in these sorts of arguments, but this is a good example of where the fine distinctions between different scenarios have been worked out over many arguments in many cases over a long time. You cannot simplify it to a categorical response. Society disagrees with you, and has decided upon a more nuanced view.
A tragedy when Jodie Comer is such a fantastic actor (eg Help).
Killing Eve was a classic example of a good first season, and then a swift decline.
True Detective also.
That was less swift decline, more like fell off a cliff. As did Westworld.
Series 3 of True Detective was again superb.
It's progress was a deep V.
I don't know what happened with Westworld. I wonder if they watched the second installment of Blade Runner and went "Shit - we were going to do that replicant baby thing" and had to throw a revised storyline together.
"Bellingcat can confirm that three members of the delegation attending the peace talks between Ukraine and Russia on the night of 3 to 4 March 2022 experienced symptoms consistent with poisoning with chemical weapons. One of victims was Russian entrepreneur Roman Abramovich."
I was expecting chemical weapons to be used in this conflict; this was not the vector I expected. Oddly, as it has been used several times before by one of the players...
One of the characteristics of evil is a complete inifference to human suffering. The Putin regime qualifies high on that score. Indeed their contempt for human life borders on the psychopathic.
Putin and the boys aren't *indifferent* to suffering.
Very actively *creating* human suffering is what they do.
Can people please stop catching Covid? That's the second interview that we're having to postpone because they have a dose of the dreaded pox. Its proving hard enough to get the required people in the same place at the same time and they keep bloody dropping with the plague.
Referring to it as the pox and the plague just makes you sound childish.
A tragedy when Jodie Comer is such a fantastic actor (eg Help).
Killing Eve was a classic example of a good first season, and then a swift decline.
True Detective also.
That was less swift decline, more like fell off a cliff. As did Westworld.
Series 3 of True Detective was again superb.
It's progress was a deep V.
I don't know what happened with Westworld. I wonder if they watched the second installment of Blade Runner and went "Shit - we were going to do that replicant baby thing" and had to throw a revised storyline together.
I think in reality, Westworld was perfect for a single season. The twists, the turns, lots of things not as they seem, coming together for the big finale....perfect to leave it at that.
"Bellingcat can confirm that three members of the delegation attending the peace talks between Ukraine and Russia on the night of 3 to 4 March 2022 experienced symptoms consistent with poisoning with chemical weapons. One of victims was Russian entrepreneur Roman Abramovich."
I was expecting chemical weapons to be used in this conflict; this was not the vector I expected. Oddly, as it has been used several times before by one of the players...
One of the characteristics of evil is a complete inifference to human suffering. The Putin regime qualifies high on that score. Indeed their contempt for human life borders on the psychopathic.
Is this in any way similar to the symptoms at US embassies?
Symptoms seem a bit microwavey but no idea how that would be set up.
The Oscars have always been about backslapping bullshit. The idea anyone could bemoan a decline in quality is risible.
The decline is in the quality of the films honoured, not in the ceremony itself (which has indeed been awful for as long as I can remember). But, the main awards - particularly Best Picture - used fairly often to be films lots of people had actually seen: the last one to break $100m at the US box office was in 2013, and the last to break $200m was Lord of the Rings in 2004.
Yes, fair.
Hollywood has been fucked by a combination of Marvel and Netflix.
I struggle to care about many new films these days. Yet I’d seen every film on that 1994 list published upthread.
And no, it’s not just age.
I've seen a couple of persuasive essays which make this point. Movies (like music) have got objectively worse in the last two decades. It's not just nostalgia and Fings Aint Wot They Used To Be, it is a real and measurable decline: even the vocabulary in the scripts has got simpler and more child-like
There are multiple reasons, from the death of the (hugely profitable) DVD to the decline in budgets to the advent of streaming to the atomising of audiences
One big reason is the rise of the Chinese and other markets. These are huge and irresistible for Hollywood studios under financial pressure, so movies are dumbed down so they can cross all cultures, and sell in Beijing as well as Brooklyn (hence all the Marvel/superhero/Star Wars bollocks); meanwhile the arthouse movie audience has almost completely vanished, decamped to watch excellent TV drama (which doesn't need Chinese/Indian/Brazilian audiences so can be really smart/meta/witty/rude)
It's a golden age for TV drama and video games. It's decline and fall for movies and music. Discuss
Not just about dumbing down for Chinese market, because limited slots per year for a Western film and the very strict censorship rules, you are going to resort to a certain type of film.
I think TV is somewhat in a slump at the moment. A lot of the big budget tv shows / primetime slots for the big networks like HBO aren't really very good. The big hit of the last few months, a weird South Korean show. Stuff like the Foundation on Apple+ weren't very good, despite mega bucks being plowed into it. There is nothing at the moment I am desperate to see the next episode. Severance is vaguely interesting.
There's a definitely a dip in TV quality. Foundation is ponderous, as is the other big fantasy thing, whose name escapes me it is so ephemeral (yet cost $$$$$)
However I am still finding decent stuff. The new Vikings Valhalla is a pretty good iteration (despite the hint of Woke creeping in). I am enjoying an excellent Danish history, 1864 (I think it's a few years old) about a mad nationalist invasion of another European country (it is incredibly timely, of course, but it is also good. Recommended). Mare of Easttown is gritty and moving. Succession is superb
And of course there is THE GREAT. Probably the funniest historical comedy ever made, a work of genius, and renewed for a new season
The quality is somewhat down, but we have been feasting on absolute riches for years, and maybe this is just a Covid hiatus, and the real good times will return
TV has always had good years and had years.
In the last two decades, we've had the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Succession, Curb Your Enthusiasm and also a bunch of utter shit.
There have been an awful lot of decent first series, that failed in their second or third, that we don't remember (or just remember the decline): Ted Lasso, Shut Eye, Lost, Desperate Housewives.
I think that's a pretty good haul for the last two decades.
Yes but sopranos breaking bad, the wire, mad men all quite old now rather proving my point that TV likely peaked in the 2010s
Bosch on Amazon was also excellent. Euphoria is disturbing, but excellent. (And it's also a very long way from woke.)
I think this is all a classic example of survivorship bias. You remember all the crap that's out today that will never be renewed. And you forget all the crap that was around in 2000s that wasn't.
I quite liked Bosch (something I watched while on Zwift), but I don't think many were talking about it then, or now, let alone in a few years.
It's very popular in the US. I thought it was one of the best police procedurals in decades. High production value, complex plots, three dimensional characters.
Ended shittily, as most series do, but I do love me some Titus Welliver. It's 'spinoff starring the same character' presumably starts soon.
Funny. I had assumed the spin-off would focus on Maddie, not Bosch.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
It can be mitigation though. Eg a person subjected to prolonged and intense verbal abuse and humiliation by their sadistic controlling partner, who finally snaps and physically attacks them, causing GBH, they might not go to jail.
For me it's case by case. What fails is general rules like "a slap in response to verbal abuse is never justified". It's a good rule-of-thumb - and probably applicable here with Smith - but no more than that.
The Oscars have always been about backslapping bullshit. The idea anyone could bemoan a decline in quality is risible.
The decline is in the quality of the films honoured, not in the ceremony itself (which has indeed been awful for as long as I can remember). But, the main awards - particularly Best Picture - used fairly often to be films lots of people had actually seen: the last one to break $100m at the US box office was in 2013, and the last to break $200m was Lord of the Rings in 2004.
Yes, fair.
Hollywood has been fucked by a combination of Marvel and Netflix.
I struggle to care about many new films these days. Yet I’d seen every film on that 1994 list published upthread.
And no, it’s not just age.
I've seen a couple of persuasive essays which make this point. Movies (like music) have got objectively worse in the last two decades. It's not just nostalgia and Fings Aint Wot They Used To Be, it is a real and measurable decline: even the vocabulary in the scripts has got simpler and more child-like
There are multiple reasons, from the death of the (hugely profitable) DVD to the decline in budgets to the advent of streaming to the atomising of audiences
One big reason is the rise of the Chinese and other markets. These are huge and irresistible for Hollywood studios under financial pressure, so movies are dumbed down so they can cross all cultures, and sell in Beijing as well as Brooklyn (hence all the Marvel/superhero/Star Wars bollocks); meanwhile the arthouse movie audience has almost completely vanished, decamped to watch excellent TV drama (which doesn't need Chinese/Indian/Brazilian audiences so can be really smart/meta/witty/rude)
It's a golden age for TV drama and video games. It's decline and fall for movies and music. Discuss
Not just about dumbing down for Chinese market, because limited slots per year for a Western film and the very strict censorship rules, you are going to resort to a certain type of film.
I think TV is somewhat in a slump at the moment. A lot of the big budget tv shows / primetime slots for the big networks like HBO aren't really very good. The big hit of the last few months, a weird South Korean show. Stuff like the Foundation on Apple+ weren't very good, despite mega bucks being plowed into it. There is nothing at the moment I am desperate to see the next episode. Severance is vaguely interesting.
There's a definitely a dip in TV quality. Foundation is ponderous, as is the other big fantasy thing, whose name escapes me it is so ephemeral (yet cost $$$$$)
However I am still finding decent stuff. The new Vikings Valhalla is a pretty good iteration (despite the hint of Woke creeping in). I am enjoying an excellent Danish history, 1864 (I think it's a few years old) about a mad nationalist invasion of another European country (it is incredibly timely, of course, but it is also good. Recommended). Mare of Easttown is gritty and moving. Succession is superb
And of course there is THE GREAT. Probably the funniest historical comedy ever made, a work of genius, and renewed for a new season
The quality is somewhat down, but we have been feasting on absolute riches for years, and maybe this is just a Covid hiatus, and the real good times will return
TV has always had good years and had years.
In the last two decades, we've had the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Succession, Curb Your Enthusiasm and also a bunch of utter shit.
There have been an awful lot of decent first series, that failed in their second or third, that we don't remember (or just remember the decline): Ted Lasso, Shut Eye, Lost, Desperate Housewives.
I think that's a pretty good haul for the last two decades.
Yes but sopranos breaking bad, the wire, mad men all quite old now rather proving my point that TV likely peaked in the 2010s
Bosch on Amazon was also excellent. Euphoria is disturbing, but excellent. (And it's also a very long way from woke.)
I think this is all a classic example of survivorship bias. You remember all the crap that's out today that will never be renewed. And you forget all the crap that was around in 2000s that wasn't.
I quite liked Bosch (something I watched while on Zwift), but I don't think many were talking about it then, or now, let alone in a few years.
It's very popular in the US. I thought it was one of the best police procedurals in decades. High production value, complex plots, three dimensional characters.
Ended shittily, as most series do, but I do love me some Titus Welliver. It's 'spinoff starring the same character' presumably starts soon.
Funny. I had assumed the spin-off would focus on Maddie, not Bosch.
Its because that is what happened in the books. Bosch leave the police and becomes a private detective in partnership with the hard nosed lawyer lady.
The weird thing about is it, they are putting it on IMDB Tv (which Amazon owns a stake in), rather than continue with it on Amazon Prime.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Your post is fine, except you don't define the parameters for "are entitled to defend themselves". Are they allowed to respond with angry profanity? Are they allowed to administer a good spanking? Are they allowed to empty the contents of a Glock into the aggressor?
There's no need to define the parameters.
There's a reason I like the Common Law system where these things are deliberately left vague and left to the "reasonable person" to determine what is "reasonable".
It seems plenty of reasonable people believe that Chris Rock got what he deserved, and I rather suspect that includes Chris Rock (!) - he chose already and has made it clear that he is not going to press charges.
I'm surprised. After all, there's no doubt who did it: the police have fresh prints.
Idly scanning the press as I pas the bug-ridden time, I see two Times bits that made me raise an eyebrow:
"[The Turkish mediator proposed that] “Crimea and Donbas should be held by Moscow under a long-term lease, similar to Britain’s control over Hong Kong from 1898 to 1997, with their future decided at a later date”
- could be a possibility, maybe? Enables Ukraine to say they've not given up a ninch of soil, merely temporarily recignising the de facto situation, and Russia to say they've secured recognition for several decades. By the end of the period, both governments might look very different.
Also, "39 per cent of the French population would like an unelected strongman in charge."
WTAF?
Man on White Horse To Reset Things To How They Should Be.
The problem with De Gaulle is that he made this look easy.
Much as George Bush Senior made war in the Middle East look like a good idea - quick, easy and get the Arabs and Israelis on the same side - what's not to like?
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
So you don't think me saying Putin is a repressed sadistic homosexual is a valid reason for Putin to nuke London?
So what are we learning on here today? Violence against a man who gave some verbal is okay; if you don't do violence, you're a 'door mat'.
But all trans people have to be despised and hated because *a few* do bad things?
If we really wanted to stop violence of all sorts - and yes, against women - we would talk much more about the former, and not excuse it because you're an alpha-male wannabe idiot.
No what you're learning today is that violence in self-defence of those you love is sometimes appropriate.
Yes that includes tackling bullies sometimes.
Chris Rock deserved the smack. Smith was right to apologise to others but he notably and appropriately didn't apologise to Chris Rock, and nor should he.
He acted in self-defence of his wife. Nothing wrong with that.
Hmm interesting perspective. Let's come back to my thought experiment. You are walking along the road with your wife and Tyson Fury calls her a ****. What's your next move.
My case? Holding back the wife. "He's not worth it, luv...."
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
Verbal abuse can have fatal consequences. Why is physical violence in response to verbal abuse "disproportionate"?
And any level of physical violence can also be fatal, with higher rates of fatal consequences than verbal abuse. Thus it is out of proportion to the abuse received.
There is a clear hierarchy, established in case law, for very good reason.
To drill down into the details a bit more, suppose you were verbally abused, and you took the defensive step of walking away from the incident, but you were then pursued with more verbal abuse. The fact that the assailant pursued you in this scenario puts it on a higher level in the hierarchy of threat, and would justify a higher level of response as being reasonable in your defence.
It is a graduated thing. We have seen before that you have very on and off thinking in these sorts of arguments, but this is a good example of where the fine distinctions between different scenarios have been worked out over many arguments in many cases over a long time. You cannot simplify it to a categorical response. Society disagrees with you, and has decided upon a more nuanced view.
I'm sorry, but society agrees with me.
There is a difference in society, whether you like it or not, between a slap and a punch - and for very good reason. I've mentioned before but I was punched once, unprovoked, it shattered my eyesocket and nearly left me blind. So I don't treat the concept of violence lightly.
But a slap is different to a punch and quite rightly too.
I witnessed a slap at work once, a young man said something inappropriate to a female colleague and she slapped him. Both could have got in trouble for that - him for saying something sexually inapproriate, her for being violent in response, but both apologised and that was the end of the matter. I think (and many would agree) that she was within her rights to defend herself with that slap, which is why people in charge chose not to push the matter further despite it being "violence in the workplace".
As you said, its nuanced, yet you're trying to make it black and white about violent being black and verbal being white. It doesn't work that way. The nuance between verbal and physical can be very blurred at times and a slap can be an entirely reasonable in that moment response to verbal abuse.
You have to factor in how Melenchon is viewed differently close to the first vote, If people of the left and centre and youth see he has mo and is close to knocking Le Pen out it will act like a Magic Vote tree, won’t it?
Your second round fantasy splits are gibberish until we actually have campaign between just two, plus the fact if Macron, with his declaration of war on France manifesto wins this, it won’t be by much.
"Bellingcat can confirm that three members of the delegation attending the peace talks between Ukraine and Russia on the night of 3 to 4 March 2022 experienced symptoms consistent with poisoning with chemical weapons. One of victims was Russian entrepreneur Roman Abramovich."
I was expecting chemical weapons to be used in this conflict; this was not the vector I expected. Oddly, as it has been used several times before by one of the players...
Bring a whole new meaning to the term "bad faith negotiations"
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
Why am I wrong?
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
Verbal abuse can have fatal consequences. Why is physical violence in response to verbal abuse "disproportionate"?
And any level of physical violence can also be fatal, with higher rates of fatal consequences than verbal abuse. Thus it is out of proportion to the abuse received.
There is a clear hierarchy, established in case law, for very good reason.
To drill down into the details a bit more, suppose you were verbally abused, and you took the defensive step of walking away from the incident, but you were then pursued with more verbal abuse. The fact that the assailant pursued you in this scenario puts it on a higher level in the hierarchy of threat, and would justify a higher level of response as being reasonable in your defence.
It is a graduated thing. We have seen before that you have very on and off thinking in these sorts of arguments, but this is a good example of where the fine distinctions between different scenarios have been worked out over many arguments in many cases over a long time. You cannot simplify it to a categorical response. Society disagrees with you, and has decided upon a more nuanced view.
But a slap is different to a punch and quite rightly too.
You have evidently never been lost down the wormhole of watching slapping contests.
The main insight from this morning's LBC interview with Starmer is that Labour is going to get hit with a whole bunch of culture war wedge issues in the run-up to the next election. Those issues say a lot more about the distorted concerns of Westminster/media than the country.
I'm not sure "women's rights & safety" are a "distorted concern"....
There are a lot of 'yebbuts' in those sorts of issues. For example, the man in the pub is initially against whatever it is, but then says 'yebbut' and turns out that on reflection he thinks it's quite a good idea. Like gay marriage. Your average 'straight' isn't bothered, finds it mildly amusing, but if it's not hurting anyone, and it protects the survivors rights on death, why not?
Yebbut.....gay marriage does not impinge upon anyone else's rights. The debate over the GRA is the potential for some bad actors to impinge on natal women's rights, and the terrible muddle some have got into over "sex" and "gender" arguing that only the latter is "real" and should trump any rights based on "sex".
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
Why am I wrong?
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
I am saying for your wellbeing please do not employ the judgement that verbal abuse of the type we saw last night (ie a comedian's joke) justifies a physical response.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
Why am I wrong?
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
I am saying for your wellbeing please do not employ the judgement that verbal abuse of the type we saw last night (ie a comedian's joke) justifies a physical response.
You will either end up in hospital or court.
If someone abuses my wife then I absolutely well and truly reserve the right to defend my wife.
A tragedy when Jodie Comer is such a fantastic actor (eg Help).
Killing Eve was a classic example of a good first season, and then a swift decline.
Another example of this was "Labour Leader" starring Jeremy Corbyn.
The 1st season in 2017 was quality and raised big hopes for the 2nd. But when it came 2 years later, oh dear oh dear. It was like a totally different show. Script, acting, production values, everything had gone to pot.
The main lesson of the Oscars is the awards validated Sunday's PB consensus that the dog film was rubbish.
Well, apart from giving Jane Campion best director.
No. Leon added she would obviously win it for services to woke.
The cinematography in Dune wasn’t better than dog film was it? Time to completely ignore Oscars now if they can’t get a single award right. Licorice Pizza far better screenplay than Belfast too. Did anyone else enjoy licorice pizza too, it’s affecting realism an opposite of the contrived whimsy of Belfast. In such abysmal decisions the Oscar academy patently told the world they haven’t a clue about decent film making.
Don't know about the dog film, but I thought the Dune effects were pretty good.
You mean the computer animation or good old fashioned camera artistry?
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Self-defence has to be proportionate. Using physical violence in response to verbal abuse is disproportionate. Consequently a self-defence argument would fail.
So you don't think me saying Putin is a repressed sadistic homosexual is a valid reason for Putin to nuke London?
I don't, no, but that will be of little comfort were he to decide otherwise.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
Why am I wrong?
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
I am saying for your wellbeing please do not employ the judgement that verbal abuse of the type we saw last night (ie a comedian's joke) justifies a physical response.
You will either end up in hospital or court.
If someone abuses my wife then I absolutely well and truly reserve the right to defend my wife.
As I said, hospital or court although it is not your right to specify which.
A tragedy when Jodie Comer is such a fantastic actor (eg Help).
Killing Eve was a classic example of a good first season, and then a swift decline.
True Detective also.
That was less swift decline, more like fell off a cliff. As did Westworld.
Westworld season one had the nice trick of showing three timelines in a way that led you to believe it was happening concurrently, which in a sense it was for Delores. It worked pretty well and allowed a good second viewing to get all the bits you didn't on first watch. They then decided in season 2 that there had to be another mess your head gimmic, and messed with Bernard. Nowhere near as good. Christ knows what happened in the third series, which is out of the park and into a completely different universe really. Season 2 had some great points - Samurai world, with its carbon copy characters from the Western zone was great. The man in black killing his daughter because he thinks shes a droid. The nth iteration of James Delos breaking down, as always. It also had some clunkers - why would the script writer save Maeve by sacrificing himself? Made now sense. Best bit of the last series was when Delores asked why Caleb helped her, implying it was because she was beautiful. Touched a nerve for me.
PB vigilantes: bloody left full of snowflakes demanding comedians are cancelled because they make "offensive" jokes.
Also PB vigilantes: excellent news that a comedian got a slap for being offensive.
Not the same thing though, are they. Chris Rock getting what was due after insulting another man's wife isn't the same as wanting him to be cancelled. I've got no issue with him doing tours or hosting next year's event if they ask him.
Mate I applaud you for what you did to the people who were bullying you.
But this is a comedian being a comedian (making a joke about one of the most powerful Hollywood couples) and you think it's great to slap them for it. Can present the show next year but rightly gets a black eye if someone takes offence to what he says. Have a word with yourself.
Nah, you've misread the scenario if you think that's what this is about. Will Smith and Chris Rock have got a long standing mutual loathing of each other, my reading of it (and this has been confirmed by a studio exec this morning) is that Chris Rock wanted to have a go at Will Smith because he was odds on to win the award just for the sake of getting a dig in against a long standing rival. If he'd gone direct we wouldn't be talking about it but Chris Rock went indirect, insulted Will Smith's wife and made fun of her medical condition which all insiders say she's pretty sensitive about, loads were praising her bravery for coming to the ceremony without wearing a weave or a wig. Chris Rock made it personal and ultimately got what was coming to him. He should have realised if he was going to shit chat another man's wife this was a likely result.
Someone said it on here earlier, there's loads of things people say anonymously on the internet they wouldn't say to someone's face, well Chris Rock tested and proved that theory.
I get all that but I don't think it should end in violence. It's a comedian making a joke and the response was the act of a bully. Imagine instead of Chris Rock it had been The Rock. That would have been worth watching.
You're missing the point then, Dwayne Johnson wouldn't be making that joke. This is Chris Rock wanting to shit on Will Smith's big day in the sun, no more, no less. He got what was coming to him. Chris Rock abused his position as the host to have a pop at someone who he's already got a beef with, there's a word for people who abuse their authority.
I understand that - it was Chris Rock's golden opportunity to get at the Smiths. And he did so by making fun (not what he said but who cares) of Mrs Smith. And he got a slap for it. That is the law of the jungle. If the bully you beat up at school had come back with 10 of his brothers and slapped the fuck out of you then what? Once you are on that train you don't know where it's going to go.
My point is that Chris Rock invited the law of the jungle into the room, those who live by the sword will ultimately die by it.
In my situation, I honestly felt as though I had nothing to lose. My life couldn't have got much worse anyway and (horrifyingly) I had thought of the outcome you mentioned and I thought if they killed me someone might finally realise what was going on. I'm still ashamed of thinking that, to this day.
Blimmin' heck 2x well done you that is awful. Without wishing to take you back there was no one in authority in a position to help?
Edit: and it seems trivial vs the above and I think people know my view on it now but I don't think a comedian telling an offensive joke is inviting the law of the jungle into the room...
That's the thing with bullies, they make it seem as though there is no way out. The school was fucking useless, my dad was working basically 7am to 11pm and when he was home I didn't want to worry him with my trivial problems and my mum has eerily similar views to JJ about suffering in silence and waiting for God to deliver us from pain.
The only way out seemed to be a confrontation for which I was poorly prepared. In the end he was even less well prepared and once I had pushed him to the ground a few kicks to his head and body were enough to make him back off. It was only a few days later in the "clear the air" meeting between the two families that the headmaster realised what had been going on for almost two years. It was that realisation and the eventual coming forwards of other bullied kids that actually helped keep me in the school and, probably, the other bullies away.
Interesting thanks. And I presume the staff had dismissed it as boys being boys previously. And of course you could have killed him with a "few kicks to the head".
But I would rather not use yours as a case study as you did what you had to to, it was wholly admirable then, and achieved its aim and I am not intending to discuss it with any kind of smart-arse hindsight.
Back to Chris & Will!!
Worse than that, it was a boys school so there was a culture of not snitching and the teachers were very much part of pushing that culture. As I've said, the authorities, whether it's teachers at school or the police either seem to not care or simply don't want to know. Sadly, not much has changed in the 20 or so years since my experience, I'd say it's probably got worse, especially for girls.
Anyway, I'm heading off for a late lunch but I hope you can see why comments like "maybe you handled it incorrectly" from the likes of @JosiasJessop really, really annoy me. I think anyone who has been seriously bullied will recognise what I went through and also find his comment repulsive. Bullies don't give you a nice easy way out which is why so many victims commit suicide. It's almost as though people like him would rather that happen than people choosing to fight back because "violence is never the answer" which to me is such a hugely bullshit phrase, sometimes the situation requires words and reasoning, in other situations fighting might be the only way out.
On a similar note, my kid(s) is going to some kind of personal combat classes from early on, just to ensure they are prepared for what's out there so they've always got that way out if they need it. I never had that and had to hope the other kid wasn't much of a fighter either, I don't ever want my kid(s) to be in the same situation.
Thanks, Max. As I said, if you've read my comments previously, you'll know a different angle on this.
And a final note: behaviour that may be okay as a child may not be okay as an adult. It's called growing up.
You should try it.
But what's your advice to people being bullied? Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care. They want people who are being bullied to quietly disappear to make their lives easier and when the victim commits suicide we get the same old "lessons need to be learned" nonsense from the same authorities who didn't care enough to actually do something about it. I've lived through racist bullying, almost two years at school, you may think what I did was unethical or wrong but I know it was the only way out and as I mentioned to TOPPING then thought of being seriously injured or dying had crossed my mind many times before I snapped back, it was the other way out of my situation. That's what bullied people are faced with, being ignored by those who were supposed to protect us with no way out.
As for growing up, I've mentioned it on here before, the worst case of racism I've experienced as an adult resulted in me not reacting to it. I said it on here, my then girlfriend and now wife told me after we got married it was one of the moments she realised we'd get married and have kids.
"Anyone who has been in that situation knows that the authorities neither care nor want to care."
I've had friends with kids who have had very mixed experiences. For a couple, the schools behaved brilliantly. In one in particular, the school behaved very poorly (not helped by the fact the bully and victim were changing from primary to secondary). That was a particularly nasty case, but was physical abuse by the bully.
So in my limited second-hand experience it is mixed. I know the primary school the little 'un is in is quite responsive to bullying, though thankfully we haven't learnt about their response first-hand. The little 'un is an only child and quite introverted, so we're trying to educate him about how to respond.
As I've said many times previously, I went through much of my school life with my leg in a cast, and sometimes unable to walk. I was bullied a little, although oddly not as much as some. Never physically. I ignored it. Then again, I had an older brother and sister so probably was a little hardened.
I just don't see how resorting physically to verbal abuse is in any way warranted, especially in adults.
Violence is warranted some times in self-defence.
Its as simple as that.
Absolutely, in self-defence. I haven't said anything different.
Hitting an idiot because they give you verbal is not 'self-defence'. It's escalation.
It is self-defence.
Verbal abuse is still abuse. Using violence in defence against abuse is acceptable.
Wow. Are you sure you want to go down that road.
Clearly the answer is yes.
Verbal abuse is a form of abuse.
Abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves.
Which bit do you disagree with?
Mind boggling.
Yet you're not prepared to say which bit you disagree with, funny that.
Is it that you don't think abuse victims are entitled to defend themselves?
Or that you don't consider verbal abuse to really be abuse?
LOL.
So you have twatted or reserve the right to twat everyone that has verbally abused you?
I take it you have either never been verbally abused or you have been in many fights in which case great life to lead and you are very very lucky not to have ended up in court or hospital.
Reserve the right to, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't mean I would, as I said earlier to you, human beings are capable of this thing called "judgement" but if in your judgement the best way to end abuse is to turn physical, then that is self-defence.
How many times a) have you been abused; and b) as a result turned physical. Just wondering about how it works in practice.
Not many.
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
LOL you are taking an incident from the playground and using it as a life lesson.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
For the umpteenth time, I like everyone else am capable of using judgement in a situation.
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
You say you should apply judgement and of course you are right. However, you think Will Smith was justified in smacking Chris Rock and on this you are wrong. And if you apply that judgement in your real life you will I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever have a very bad time of it.
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
Why am I wrong?
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
I am saying for your wellbeing please do not employ the judgement that verbal abuse of the type we saw last night (ie a comedian's joke) justifies a physical response.
You will either end up in hospital or court.
If someone abuses my wife then I absolutely well and truly reserve the right to defend my wife.
Is she incapable of defending herself from verbal comments she doesn’t like ?
The main lesson of the Oscars is the awards validated Sunday's PB consensus that the dog film was rubbish.
Well, apart from giving Jane Campion best director.
No. Leon added she would obviously win it for services to woke.
The cinematography in Dune wasn’t better than dog film was it? Time to completely ignore Oscars now if they can’t get a single award right. Licorice Pizza far better screenplay than Belfast too. Did anyone else enjoy licorice pizza too, it’s affecting realism an opposite of the contrived whimsy of Belfast. In such abysmal decisions the Oscar academy patently told the world they haven’t a clue about decent film making.
Don't know about the dog film, but I thought the Dune effects were pretty good.
You mean the computer animation or good old fashioned camera artistry?
"Adolescent drip grows up a bit with help from his mum ... ON ANOTHER PLANET."
Seems a weak proposal for a movie but they swung it somehow.
Comments
Self defence covers you a lot more than people might think it does from reading the Daily Mail about home owners defending themselves from burglars etc, but it still is not completely bonkers.
I still stand by my toe trodding analogy. A reaction, even possibly physical in that scenario, might be appropriate, but not without limits. And naughty words hurt and are not to be dismissed as nothing, it can even be abuse. But breaking out the fists?
Don't be so bloody childish (ironically - since I was taught it was ok to hit people if they hit me first, but not to be the first to hit).
It happened at school, someone was bullying me and I'm not an aggressive person. My dad advised me to hit them back next time - I did hit them the next day, the bullying stopped. It was good advice.
"A source with direct knowledge has just confirmed to me the WSJ/Bellingcat reports that Abramovich suffered symptoms of poisoning. "Roman lost his sight for several hours" and was treated in Turkey, the source said."
Sounds pretty serious. Abramovich has been scared of poisoning for a good few years - famously refused food and water at Chelsea's away matches.
I do think there has been a bit of a downward trend in great stuff in the last 5-7 years, but there is still some good stuff out there.
Lovely afternoon to go and make sure the nuclear bomb shelter at the bottom of the garden is still in working order....
Though I agree it is merited and can think of few other reactions.
My understanding is that France is not a country particularly at ease with itself right now. The ex-generals warning of a civil war was one of many straws in the wind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56899765
There's a reason I like the Common Law system where these things are deliberately left vague and left to the "reasonable person" to determine what is "reasonable".
It seems plenty of reasonable people believe that Chris Rock got what he deserved, and I rather suspect that includes Chris Rock (!) - he chose already and has made it clear that he is not going to press charges.
Everyone has the freedom to decide for themselves what is reasonable and what is not, and it depends upon the situation. In this situation, I don't think a slap was unreasonable and it was self-defence of his wife.
Jesus Fucking Christ may you never get verbally abused and may you never get in a fight (as a result or just anyway) but I would seriously counsel you don't apply that strategy to your daily life when you and your family are out and about.
Redfield & Wilton Strategies
Westminster Voting Intention (27 Mar):
Labour 37% (-3)
Conservative 35% (–)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-2)
Green 5% (-2)
Scottish National Party 6% (+2)
Reform UK 5% (+3)
Other 3% (+2)
Must have been allergic to the complementary warm towels on the plane over there....
If I were subject to abuse in my daily life while out and about, or my wife or other loved ones were to be, then I would deal with that in that moment however I deemed appropriate then based upon that moment and all that is happening then. It is called using your judgement and there is no predetermined right or wrong answer.
I feel sorry for you if you're incapable of using sound judgement in a situation based upon the specifics of that situation.
There is a clear hierarchy, established in case law, for very good reason.
To drill down into the details a bit more, suppose you were verbally abused, and you took the defensive step of walking away from the incident, but you were then pursued with more verbal abuse. The fact that the assailant pursued you in this scenario puts it on a higher level in the hierarchy of threat, and would justify a higher level of response as being reasonable in your defence.
It is a graduated thing. We have seen before that you have very on and off thinking in these sorts of arguments, but this is a good example of where the fine distinctions between different scenarios have been worked out over many arguments in many cases over a long time. You cannot simplify it to a categorical response. Society disagrees with you, and has decided upon a more nuanced view.
It's progress was a deep V.
I don't know what happened with Westworld. I wonder if they watched the second installment of Blade Runner and went "Shit - we were going to do that replicant baby thing" and had to throw a revised storyline together.
Very actively *creating* human suffering is what they do.
Symptoms seem a bit microwavey but no idea how that would be set up.
I wonder how many voters could correctly match names to photos of those 3
So perhaps I should modify my position. Yes use judgement when responding to verbal abuse; no, please don't use *your* judgement when so doing.
For me it's case by case. What fails is general rules like "a slap in response to verbal abuse is never justified". It's a good rule-of-thumb - and probably applicable here with Smith - but no more than that.
The weird thing about is it, they are putting it on IMDB Tv (which Amazon owns a stake in), rather than continue with it on Amazon Prime.
The problem with De Gaulle is that he made this look easy.
Much as George Bush Senior made war in the Middle East look like a good idea - quick, easy and get the Arabs and Israelis on the same side - what's not to like?
There is a difference in society, whether you like it or not, between a slap and a punch - and for very good reason. I've mentioned before but I was punched once, unprovoked, it shattered my eyesocket and nearly left me blind. So I don't treat the concept of violence lightly.
But a slap is different to a punch and quite rightly too.
I witnessed a slap at work once, a young man said something inappropriate to a female colleague and she slapped him. Both could have got in trouble for that - him for saying something sexually inapproriate, her for being violent in response, but both apologised and that was the end of the matter. I think (and many would agree) that she was within her rights to defend herself with that slap, which is why people in charge chose not to push the matter further despite it being "violence in the workplace".
As you said, its nuanced, yet you're trying to make it black and white about violent being black and verbal being white. It doesn't work that way. The nuance between verbal and physical can be very blurred at times and a slap can be an entirely reasonable in that moment response to verbal abuse.
Your second round fantasy splits are gibberish until we actually have campaign between just two, plus the fact if Macron, with his declaration of war on France manifesto wins this, it won’t be by much.
He was justified, his wife was visibly upset and he was defending his wife. That's quite honourable, good for him.
If you're saying that you'd never defend your wife, then I don't even want to go there.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=slapping+contest+2021
You will either end up in hospital or court.
The 1st season in 2017 was quality and raised big hopes for the 2nd. But when it came 2 years later, oh dear oh dear. It was like a totally different show. Script, acting, production values, everything had gone to pot.
Christ knows what happened in the third series, which is out of the park and into a completely different universe really.
Season 2 had some great points - Samurai world, with its carbon copy characters from the Western zone was great. The man in black killing his daughter because he thinks shes a droid. The nth iteration of James Delos breaking down, as always.
It also had some clunkers - why would the script writer save Maeve by sacrificing himself? Made now sense.
Best bit of the last series was when Delores asked why Caleb helped her, implying it was because she was beautiful. Touched a nerve for me.
I mean NOT of Whig persuasion!
Seems a weak proposal for a movie but they swung it somehow.