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Johnson under fire for likening Ukraine to Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Scott_xP said:

    @guyverhofstadt As a former British diplomat, I feel deeply ashamed by our PM. All EU foreign ministries should call in British Ambassadors and ask them to explain Johnson’s remarks, which are grossly offensive to Ukrainians and the EU.
    https://twitter.com/alexhallhall/status/1505242246689525765

    Oh give it a fecking rest. Calling in ambassadors? We haven’t invaded a foreign country ffs. A politician made a comparison which some think was a bit ill judged.
    Grow the duck up and stop retweeting shit.
    Your country's leader compared the EU to Putin, a man against whose army he is shipping lethal weapons. He is also implicitly saying every other country needs to be liberated from the EU. So, yes, he is a plonker.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Yesterday Rees-Mogg tried to make the point that Ukraine is serious.

    Today BoZo reminded us he is a fucking clown.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Boris just completely lacks class.

    Britain had an opportunity to make amends and regain a place of international respect during this crisis, and he and Patel are doing their best to blow it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:


    To me everything has changed and how each party faces the huge problems going forward will decide GE24

    I do expect problems for labour and the SNP if they object to the development of oil and gas fields within the UK as we becoming self sufficient in the transition to net zero and stop importing energy, not just from Russia but elsewhere when we can provide it ourselves and with high paid UK jobs

    Net Zero is one thing - being self-sufficient in energy is another. We can ramp up oil and gas production but that won't make us net zero - investing more in renewables seems the obvious way forward and it wasn't that long ago we had 0% of our energy derived from coal on some days.

    The other side of the equation is how much energy we use and whether a few simple measures could reduce our energy consumption but that will depend on the degree to which we are prepared to change (or compromise) our lifestyle to reduce energy consumption. That's going to be the harder sell.
    It is a balance but it is a 20 year transition

    I would recommend that HMG makes energy efficiency in homes a statutory requirement with a minimum rating of C required on the sale of property, thereby making improving energy efficiency a real positive but also that house sales will need to reflect in negotiations the costs and no doubt the owner reducing the price or the buyer greeing to make the investment

    I understand some mortgages are available at at lower interest rates already for energy efficient homes

    The cost according to X rebellion is one trillion to insulate all our homes and that is not possible from the government purse
    It won't cost anything like a trillion. XR are dickheads.
    How much do you think it will cost for every home in the UK
    Let's assume there are 20 million homes in the UK. That's probably not too far from the truth.

    Now, at the one end you'll have 100 year old homes that have never had any insulation and leak heat like a sieve. On the other, you'll have modern apartment complexes with double or triple glazing, which will require nothing.

    Let's also not forget that the 80:20 rule applies here. You can achieve an awful lot pretty easily - you don't need to do *everything*, you can do the most cost effective things (such as roof insulation) pretty easily and cheaply.

    So, I'd say you can do an awful lot with just 20 billion.
    The easiest thing to do is to make sure that you have the highest standards in new builds, but every time a government proposes doing such a thing, the building industry sucks it collective teeth and mutters darkly about the government's house-building targets, and the standards are watered down, and implementation is delayed.
    That’s true. Developers can also water down the environmental standards of new builds by arguing that they’re not ‘viable’.

    An interesting stat is that 80% of the housing stock that will exist in 2050 is already built. Improving the thermal efficiency of the old stock is a mammoth task.

    It’s estimated that to bring the housing stock in Leeds alone to zero carbon (admittedly a very ambitious target) will be somewhere north of £5bn. Current government funding is targeted at social housing. Where the money will come from to help meet the cost for the private rented and owner occupiers is currently unknown.

    It’s a bit of a mess really. I’m all for zero carbon and I hope renewable energy generation comes on leaps and bounds as technology improves. But we might have to rely on fossil for some time yet, as unpalatable as that may be for some. And we have to figure out how to make old housing massively more thermal efficient and decide how we’re going to pay for it.
    There's a shopping list of changes that can be implemented to reduce energy usage - from insulation to solar panels to double glazing to LED lighting to more efficient household appliances.

    Some of these things are cheap, and have a big effect. Some are expensive, and only have a small one.

    Rather than fixating on the 'ohmygodweneedtodoeverythingatonce' number, how about identifying the lowest hanging fruit, and implementing them.

    And when we've done that, we'll have reduced energy usage (and imports) meaningfully, and then we can ask 'what next?'
    I heard a story about a couple who claimed to have turned the heating down by a degree each time it was recommended and are now at 4 degrees, or something like.
    I generally wonder how much low hanging fruit is left. Surely most have energy efficient light bulbs by now? And have lagged the loft? What is the true status of the targets in U.K. housing stock? I know they’re not all passive houses, but I dont believe that they are all single glazed uninsulated wrecks either.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed.

    That's what BoZo did

    He pissed off everybody to make himself feel better.

    Twat.
    Everybody?
    Probably not everybody. But even a slice of Brexit backers have come out against what he said. Our colleague @HYUFD1 for one, or this from Julia Hartley-Brewer;

    Even as a staunch Brexiteer, this is totally cringe from @BorisJohnson. Comparing the vote to leave the EU with the Ukrainian people fighting for their lives against a foreign invader is an insult to their bravery and sacrifice.

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1505199026446163971?s=20&t=qMMXhspNg4J_AB4wXCd2dw

    Put it this way. Do you think that Ukrainians hearing Boris's remarks will think more or less of him as a result?

    But that's the thing about Boris. Nearly everybody likes the idea of Boris, and nearly everybody likes him on first encounter. The dislike always comes later.
    \
    Somehow doubt Brexit is at forefront of most Ukrainians' thoughts at present. Or ever.
    They are literally asking the EU to throw out decades of accession policy to admit them.
    They want to anchor their western orientation and escape from Russian domination. They're not pining for the acquis communautaire.
    Says you. Then again, Boris does appeal to Britain who think they should tell the rest of the world what they should do.
    It's true. Dmitry Gordon, who's one of the main serious Ukrainian political broadcasters, said today that Ukraine's main allies are the US, UK, Poland and the Baltic states, in that order.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    EPG said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @guyverhofstadt As a former British diplomat, I feel deeply ashamed by our PM. All EU foreign ministries should call in British Ambassadors and ask them to explain Johnson’s remarks, which are grossly offensive to Ukrainians and the EU.
    https://twitter.com/alexhallhall/status/1505242246689525765

    Oh give it a fecking rest. Calling in ambassadors? We haven’t invaded a foreign country ffs. A politician made a comparison which some think was a bit ill judged.
    Grow the duck up and stop retweeting shit.
    Your country's leader compared the EU to Putin, a man against whose army he is shipping lethal weapons. He is also implicitly saying every other country needs to be liberated from the EU. So, yes, he is a plonker.
    Call in your ambassadors? Appropriate response?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division

    BoZo being PM helps Putin.
    Now that is just nonsense from a bitter poster

    If you had listened to his whole speech he railed against Putin throughout
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed.

    That's what BoZo did

    He pissed off everybody to make himself feel better.

    Twat.
    Yes, and even HYUFD thinks he shouldn't have said it.

    The situation is not improved by others acting the same. We learn as children two wrongs don't make a right.
    To be controversial:

    Mount Snowdon and Everest are both mountains. No one would deny that Everest is bigger and more significant than Snowdon.

    Brexit and Ukraine’s defence against Russian invasion are both examples of sovereign states choosing a path: both examples of freedom. No one would deny that Ukraine is far more significant a defence of freedom than Brexit
    The interesting thing about the objections to the comments is that they've been "insulting", "inappropriate", "offensive" etc.

    But few people have been arguing that they are wrong.
    Fuck me, killer point

    What are you applying for, again?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed.

    That's what BoZo did

    He pissed off everybody to make himself feel better.

    Twat.
    Everybody?
    Probably not everybody. But even a slice of Brexit backers have come out against what he said. Our colleague @HYUFD1 for one, or this from Julia Hartley-Brewer;

    Even as a staunch Brexiteer, this is totally cringe from @BorisJohnson. Comparing the vote to leave the EU with the Ukrainian people fighting for their lives against a foreign invader is an insult to their bravery and sacrifice.

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1505199026446163971?s=20&t=qMMXhspNg4J_AB4wXCd2dw

    Put it this way. Do you think that Ukrainians hearing Boris's remarks will think more or less of him as a result?

    But that's the thing about Boris. Nearly everybody likes the idea of Boris, and nearly everybody likes him on first encounter. The dislike always comes later.
    \
    Somehow doubt Brexit is at forefront of most Ukrainians' thoughts at present. Or ever.
    They are literally asking the EU to throw out decades of accession policy to admit them.
    They want to anchor their western orientation and escape from Russian domination. They're not pining for the acquis communautaire.
    Says you. Then again, Boris does appeal to Britain who think they should tell the rest of the world what they should do.
    It's true. Dmitry Gordon, who's one of the main serious Ukrainian political broadcasters, said today that Ukraine's main allies are the US, UK, Poland and the Baltic states, in that order.
    Like citing Owen Jones as a source for what you all think.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    Brexit helps Putin by sowing division. Exhibit A today.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed.

    That's what BoZo did

    He pissed off everybody to make himself feel better.

    Twat.
    Everybody?
    Probably not everybody. But even a slice of Brexit backers have come out against what he said. Our colleague @HYUFD1 for one, or this from Julia Hartley-Brewer;

    Even as a staunch Brexiteer, this is totally cringe from @BorisJohnson. Comparing the vote to leave the EU with the Ukrainian people fighting for their lives against a foreign invader is an insult to their bravery and sacrifice.

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1505199026446163971?s=20&t=qMMXhspNg4J_AB4wXCd2dw

    Put it this way. Do you think that Ukrainians hearing Boris's remarks will think more or less of him as a result?

    But that's the thing about Boris. Nearly everybody likes the idea of Boris, and nearly everybody likes him on first encounter. The dislike always comes later.
    \
    Somehow doubt Brexit is at forefront of most Ukrainians' thoughts at present. Or ever.
    They are literally asking the EU to throw out decades of accession policy to admit them.
    They want to anchor their western orientation and escape from Russian domination. They're not pining for the acquis communautaire.
    Says you. Then again, Boris does appeal to Britain who think they should tell the rest of the world what they should do.
    It's true. Dmitry Gordon, who's one of the main serious Ukrainian political broadcasters, said today that Ukraine's main allies are the US, UK, Poland and the Baltic states, in that order.
    Like citing Owen Jones as a source for what you all think.
    Oleksiy Arestovich says the same. It's not an unusual point of view.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division

    BoZo being PM helps Putin.
    By supplying arms, and having had Ukrainian troops trained for the last seven years? You have to be the most blinkered idiot on this site, and that includes hyfud.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022
    Eabhal said:

    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.

    Yes - his speech attacked Putin throughout and praised the Ambassador and Ukrainians for their steadfastness and bravery

    I would suggest for balances his speech I full should be listened to

    That does not say his comment were wise
  • TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    Brexit helps Putin by sowing division. Exhibit A today.
    The EU is not without serious divisions itself
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    Fatso in training for more socking it to the remoaners.

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1505312164797730820?s=20&t=BG-F6mqPRtXSBuXarWgxWg
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,216
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    Brexit helps Putin by sowing division. Exhibit A today.
    And the brilliant thing about democracy is that the system doesn't depend on one person and leaders who mess up are replaced.

    You really want to alarm Vlad? You really want to give hope to the Russian opposition?

    Show them how it's done. Dump Johnson and show them how life goes on without Big Dog.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    Eabhal said:

    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.

    Yes - his speech attacked Putin throughout and praised the Ambassador and Ukrainians for their steadfastness and bravery

    I would suggest for balances his speech I full should be listened to

    That does not say his comment were wise
    Politics is all about clips for media and he's fucked it.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:


    To me everything has changed and how each party faces the huge problems going forward will decide GE24

    I do expect problems for labour and the SNP if they object to the development of oil and gas fields within the UK as we becoming self sufficient in the transition to net zero and stop importing energy, not just from Russia but elsewhere when we can provide it ourselves and with high paid UK jobs

    Net Zero is one thing - being self-sufficient in energy is another. We can ramp up oil and gas production but that won't make us net zero - investing more in renewables seems the obvious way forward and it wasn't that long ago we had 0% of our energy derived from coal on some days.

    The other side of the equation is how much energy we use and whether a few simple measures could reduce our energy consumption but that will depend on the degree to which we are prepared to change (or compromise) our lifestyle to reduce energy consumption. That's going to be the harder sell.
    It is a balance but it is a 20 year transition

    I would recommend that HMG makes energy efficiency in homes a statutory requirement with a minimum rating of C required on the sale of property, thereby making improving energy efficiency a real positive but also that house sales will need to reflect in negotiations the costs and no doubt the owner reducing the price or the buyer greeing to make the investment

    I understand some mortgages are available at at lower interest rates already for energy efficient homes

    The cost according to X rebellion is one trillion to insulate all our homes and that is not possible from the government purse
    It won't cost anything like a trillion. XR are dickheads.
    How much do you think it will cost for every home in the UK
    Let's assume there are 20 million homes in the UK. That's probably not too far from the truth.

    Now, at the one end you'll have 100 year old homes that have never had any insulation and leak heat like a sieve. On the other, you'll have modern apartment complexes with double or triple glazing, which will require nothing.

    Let's also not forget that the 80:20 rule applies here. You can achieve an awful lot pretty easily - you don't need to do *everything*, you can do the most cost effective things (such as roof insulation) pretty easily and cheaply.

    So, I'd say you can do an awful lot with just 20 billion.
    The easiest thing to do is to make sure that you have the highest standards in new builds, but every time a government proposes doing such a thing, the building industry sucks it collective teeth and mutters darkly about the government's house-building targets, and the standards are watered down, and implementation is delayed.
    That’s true. Developers can also water down the environmental standards of new builds by arguing that they’re not ‘viable’.

    An interesting stat is that 80% of the housing stock that will exist in 2050 is already built. Improving the thermal efficiency of the old stock is a mammoth task.

    It’s estimated that to bring the housing stock in Leeds alone to zero carbon (admittedly a very ambitious target) will be somewhere north of £5bn. Current government funding is targeted at social housing. Where the money will come from to help meet the cost for the private rented and owner occupiers is currently unknown.

    It’s a bit of a mess really. I’m all for zero carbon and I hope renewable energy generation comes on leaps and bounds as technology improves. But we might have to rely on fossil for some time yet, as unpalatable as that may be for some. And we have to figure out how to make old housing massively more thermal efficient and decide how we’re going to pay for it.
    There's a shopping list of changes that can be implemented to reduce energy usage - from insulation to solar panels to double glazing to LED lighting to more efficient household appliances.

    Some of these things are cheap, and have a big effect. Some are expensive, and only have a small one.

    Rather than fixating on the 'ohmygodweneedtodoeverythingatonce' number, how about identifying the lowest hanging fruit, and implementing them.

    And when we've done that, we'll have reduced energy usage (and imports) meaningfully, and then we can ask 'what next?'
    I don’t disagree with you. But a lot of policy and decision makers are looking at the big, scary numbers. And a lot of the low hanging fruit has already been picked.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.

    Yes - his speech attacked Putin throughout and praised the Ambassador and Ukrainians for their steadfastness and bravery

    I would suggest for balances his speech I full should be listened to

    That does not say his comment were wise
    Politics is all about clips for media and he's fucked it.
    Surely more about votes? Huge majority and still in power. Next election at least a year away.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,216

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.

    Yes - his speech attacked Putin throughout and praised the Ambassador and Ukrainians for their steadfastness and bravery

    I would suggest for balances his speech I full should be listened to

    That does not say his comment were wise
    Politics is all about clips for media and he's fucked it.
    Surely more about votes? Huge majority and still in power. Next election at least a year away.
    More about keeping MPs and activists happy by flattering them; they're the only ones who can dump him before the next GE.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    Have you watched the video? That’s not what he actually said
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Boris was silly in his comment but as ever the whole speech was worth listening to and really did give an insight into how he intends fighting the next GE, if indeed he does

    With respect there is a degree of hyperbole here from the usual suspects and for some to suggest he should be sidelined in essential defence and security meetings in the EU is absurd and an absolute gift to Putin

    Heard something about "hyperbolic" weapons on the news :lol:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553

    Fatso in training for more socking it to the remoaners.

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1505312164797730820?s=20&t=BG-F6mqPRtXSBuXarWgxWg

    That isn't Boris is it? Maybe a lookalike.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    Andy_JS said:

    Fatso in training for more socking it to the remoaners.

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1505312164797730820?s=20&t=BG-F6mqPRtXSBuXarWgxWg

    That isn't Boris is it? Maybe a lookalike.
    It's got his hump and unerringly awful fashion sense
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    Nobody "needs" to listen to a confirmed fool like Boris.
    I would point out that a new person has arrived to sort out Johnson and No 10 - Cazzina i think is his name. And the first thing he did was make a presentation to the Cabinet saying 'Delivering on Brexit' was top of the agenda for next GE.

    Just a thought - but that may explain the speech?

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Scott_xP said:

    You can almost hear the Tory PR men phoning around ministers trying to find one - other than Nadine - willing to make the case that brave Brits voting for Brexit is on a par with Ukrainians seeing their children being blown to pieces by Putin’s long-range missiles.
    https://twitter.com/ThatTimWalker/status/1505302676522815496

    Guess it is Nadine on the Sunday shows tomorrow then.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    The tragic, infuriating thing is this: much of the speech is reasonable. Much of the last month of Tory behaviour, outside the home office, has been reasonable. Even the foreign secretary has shown moments of semi-competence. And then bang. He just can’t help himself.

    It is excruciating when things like this happen. They make Britain look unserious. They undo months of gradual goodwill building with our allies. They play perfectly into Putin’s divide and conquer strategy.

    Why can’t the man just f*ing shut up?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,216
    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Fatso in training for more socking it to the remoaners.

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1505312164797730820?s=20&t=BG-F6mqPRtXSBuXarWgxWg

    That isn't Boris is it? Maybe a lookalike.
    Little known fact, Boris has about a dozen body-doubles in strategic places around the country. The idea is to create diversions to stop anybody from the Child Support Agency from getting to him.
    In which case, can we find a Boris Body Double who has better morals and work ethic to run the country?

    #invisiblecoup
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    Nobody "needs" to listen to a confirmed fool like Boris.
    I would point out that a new person has arrived to sort out Johnson and No 10 - Cazzina i think is his name. And the first thing he did was make a presentation to the Cabinet saying 'Delivering on Brexit' was top of the agenda for next GE.

    Just a thought - but that may explain the speech?

    Actually I think it was a poor analogy but the wider context of his speech was uncompromising on Putin

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1505305321316798475?t=pZXhedRA1Vjn-pBbvIm4Jg&s=19
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Boris was silly in his comment but as ever the whole speech was worth listening to and really did give an insight into how he intends fighting the next GE, if indeed he does

    With respect there is a degree of hyperbole here from the usual suspects and for some to suggest he should be sidelined in essential defence and security meetings in the EU is absurd and an absolute gift to Putin

    Heard something about "hyperbolic" weapons on the news :lol:
    ... worth millions to the bio-weapons division. Now, if you're smart, we can both come out of it as heroes and we'll be set up for life.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    If Bozo is still droning on about Brexit come the next election the other parties should just remind him that he told everyone he got it done in 2019.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    Nobody "needs" to listen to a confirmed fool like Boris.
    I would point out that a new person has arrived to sort out Johnson and No 10 - Cazzina i think is his name. And the first thing he did was make a presentation to the Cabinet saying 'Delivering on Brexit' was top of the agenda for next GE.

    Just a thought - but that may explain the speech?

    Another explanation is the Boris is sad little fantasist who thinks he's the protagonist in some heroic struggle, whereas he's just a thick posh twat who's been promoted too far. And when his fuzzy, narrowing arteries finally shut his stupid, melted, drooping eyes for the last time the world will shrug and pick up the pieces and definitely not build the 50ft statue of him he thinks he deserves.
    Due to having fessed up to suffering from excessive boredom during Lockdown, PB's resident flint-knapper @Leon was commissioned by CCHQ to knap the perfect sculpture of Boris Johnson! Finally able to take a break from knapping strangely shaped sex-toys, he accepted the work in a heartbeat, and got to sculpting the same day. Arduous work, but he felt that, over the course of several weeks of almost continuous knapping, that he got it almost completely spot on with just a little bit more required.

    However, @Leon had found that he had knapped so meticulously that his hands were thoroughly knackered and sore. He wondered about taking some time off in order to finish off his masterpiece at a later date. Boris's office phoned him back reasonably promptly, but to @Leon's horror, he was told in no uncertain terms that he would lose his fee if he stopped work!

    "Why?" asked @Leon on the phone incredulously.

    "Simple!" Boris's underling replied. "You're not entitled to any..." He paused for effect. "...Statue-Tory Sick Pay!"

    I thank you!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Scott_xP said:

    If we are to ultimately defeat Putin we require international leadership and unity.

    Comparing the Ukrainian people's fight against Putin's tyranny to the British people voting for Brexit damages the standard of statecraft we were beginning to exhibit.

    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1505292239714586627

    And this is why people said that a war made it even more important to remove Boris Johnson from a leadership position. But Conservative MPs had their chance, and they fluffed it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I haven’t listened to the whole speech, and won’t. Boris never says anything of interest, it’s all waffle and guffaw.

    I think this was just another careless throwaway comment, and not intended to mean much - but it is correct that the literal implication of his comparison is that the EU os some kind of fascist aggressor state, and - by implication - remainers are pro-fascist traitors.

    Boris doesn’t - rhetorically or in practice - govern for the whole country. Only to serve his own ego and for the craic.

    He needs to be history.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Wait, did he say this stuff in front of the Ukrainian Ambassador?!?!

    Not really following this story but it's just popped up in a non-political WhatsApp chat.

    Yes - his speech attacked Putin throughout and praised the Ambassador and Ukrainians for their steadfastness and bravery

    I would suggest for balances his speech I full should be listened to

    That does not say his comment were wise
    Politics is all about clips for media and he's fucked it.
    Surely more about votes? Huge majority and still in power. Next election at least a year away.
    You could make that comment about pretty much everything.

    My sense is that a lot of Tories are desperately scrabbling to find a reason to support Johnson (including those on here). He's not particularly helpful unless you're a Brexit ultra.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Lesia Vasylenko
    @lesiavasylenko
    ·
    10m
    #Mariupol #Azovstal One of the biggest metallurgic plants in #Europe destroyed. The economic losses for #Ukraine are huge. The environment is devastated #StopRussiaNOW

    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1505318174459265024
  • Scott_xP said:

    You can almost hear the Tory PR men phoning around ministers trying to find one - other than Nadine - willing to make the case that brave Brits voting for Brexit is on a par with Ukrainians seeing their children being blown to pieces by Putin’s long-range missiles.
    https://twitter.com/ThatTimWalker/status/1505302676522815496

    Guess it is Nadine on the Sunday shows tomorrow then.
    https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1505174713831772167?t=xcU7A2gaCcR61pMLnUUTlA&s=19
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    edited March 2022
    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.

    Edit: His crass statement today was trolling. The whole point was to get people even thinking about the 'B' word again because of late thanks to covid and Ukr we have all been talking about other stuff. He wants us to be talking about Brexit. 2024 GE will be about playing that old tune one more time.
    It is all he will have left.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
    It was established earlier that the changes to the FTPA requires an election by mid January 2025 at the latest
  • Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I haven’t listened to the whole speech, and won’t. Boris never says anything of interest, it’s all waffle and guffaw.

    I think this was just another careless throwaway comment, and not intended to mean much - but it is correct that the literal implication of his comparison is that the EU os some kind of fascist aggressor state, and - by implication - remainers are pro-fascist traitors.

    Boris doesn’t - rhetorically or in practice - govern for the whole country. Only to serve his own ego and for the craic.

    He needs to be history.
    And that is up to his mps or the electorate in a GE between 2024 and January 2025
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,216

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
    In theory, yes.

    Dissolution just before Christmas 2024 (GE 2019 + 5 years) followed by a campaign.

    The only reason to do that will be a combination of still being behind in the polls, Micawber and spite, so it's unlikely.

    But it could happen. In fact, I think February 2025 is theoretically possible.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    But does he? Is anyone actually asking the question? Is the stunning success of Brexit and our newfound prosperity really motivating thankful Red wall voters and P&O ferry staff to go and register their heartfelt thanks at the ballot box?

    Or - seeing that Ukraine analogies are today’s thing - is the legendary Brexit trump card like those hordes of pro-Russian Donbass residents ready to welcome the invaders with bouquets because once in an election several years ago they voted a particular way?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.
    Yup. Brexit, plus “strong leader” on Russia (worst thing anyone can do is get stuck into whataboutery over precious donations because he’ll just say “Ukraine”), and I now think some wedge issues around new U.K. oil drilling etc, wrapped in “energy sovereignty” “take back control” speak. Oh, and a bit of culture war, plus outflanking Labour on NHS/police numbers I expect.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Starmers task is to make 2024 about the future. Not about Brexit. That is done. Now we look forward. What is next?

    Wilson showed the way.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    GE 2024:

    We have a plan for a new britain in the 2030s vs Brexit got done, let's celebrate how wonderful Boris is.

    Labour looks forward.

    Johnson's Tories look back to 2016.

    By 2024, 2016 will be old. History. The past. Nearly a decade will have flowed under the bridge.

    Starmer must make the next election about a plan for the future. Who can write that plan? He needs to be finding out asap.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Starmers task is to make 2024 about the future. Not about Brexit. That is done. Now we look forward. What is next?

    Wilson showed the way.

    Yup. In some ways he’d be best rarely referring to Boris and co at all.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
    It was established earlier that the changes to the FTPA requires an election by mid January 2025 at the latest
    Really oh I thought it had to be December 2024 at the latest.

    Thanks Big G
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited March 2022

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed.

    That's what BoZo did

    He pissed off everybody to make himself feel better.

    Twat.
    Yes, and even HYUFD thinks he shouldn't have said it.

    The situation is not improved by others acting the same. We learn as children two wrongs don't make a right.
    To be controversial:

    Mount Snowden’s and Everest are both mountains. No one would deny that Everest is bigger and more significant than Snowdon.

    Brexit and Ukraine’s defence against Russian invasion are both examples of sovereign states choosing a path: both examples of freedom. No one would deny that Ukraine is far more significant a defence of freedom than Brexit
    Make a comparison broad enough and we could compare anything, but it would lose particular relevance as a point.
    In the Brexit vote the UK decided it didn’t want to be part of the EU.

    Ukraine has made its views on being incorporated into Russia abundantly clear.

    They are both examples of the same desire for independence.

    It’s a relevant comparison but it is certainly not saying they are equivalent, just that they are part of the same category
    So, to be clear, Johnson has been saying for a month that a battle between western values and undemocratic ones is paramount. Are the Ukrainians to conclude that the entirety of western and eastern europe, with the exception of Norway, the UK, and Switzwerland, represents an equivalently undemocratic and oppressive to bloc to the Russian Federation in its worst, and current, Putinist incarnation ? Otherwise why make the comparison at all ?

    It's just imbecility and counter-productive anti western unity at a hugely important time ; but it does have the one attribute - it illustrates more succinctly than ever before how utterly out of touch with reality the "EUSSR" mentality, that this speech was designed to appeal to amongst conservative activists, really is.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
    In theory, yes.

    Dissolution just before Christmas 2024 (GE 2019 + 5 years) followed by a campaign.

    The only reason to do that will be a combination of still being behind in the polls, Micawber and spite, so it's unlikely.

    But it could happen. In fact, I think February 2025 is theoretically possible.
    Thanks
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    biggles said:

    Starmers task is to make 2024 about the future. Not about Brexit. That is done. Now we look forward. What is next?

    Wilson showed the way.

    Yup. In some ways he’d be best rarely referring to Boris and co at all.
    Good idea. Look as if he is irrelevant. We've moved on. The cost of living is a gift, sadly - but still a gift, Johnson looks out of touch and lost as that crisis engulfs the tories. Who gives a flying feck about the 2016 vote when your energy bill has gone by by £1,000?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.
    Yup. Brexit, plus “strong leader” on Russia (worst thing anyone can do is get stuck into whataboutery over precious donations because he’ll just say “Ukraine”), and I now think some wedge issues around new U.K. oil drilling etc, wrapped in “energy sovereignty” “take back control” speak. Oh, and a bit of culture war, plus outflanking Labour on NHS/police numbers I expect.
    It’s very predictable.
    Not that it can’t prove effective.

    Keir needs to make a speech now, accusing Boris of being “caught napping” - on energy issues, on Russian influence, and on the cost of living.

    There’s huge truth to it, we all know very well Boris’s governance style by now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    The BBC have an edit with the EU bit removed. This edit of the speech (a speech presumably written by someone sensible with the contentious off the cuff riffing added by Johnson) is quite good. The Boris Today BBC seem to have given up on the speech completely at 11.00 on News 24.

    We all know Johnson likes to showboat, but this wasn't in the best possible taste.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521

    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.

    Edit: His crass statement today was trolling. The whole point was to get people even thinking about the 'B' word again because of late thanks to covid and Ukr we have all been talking about other stuff. He wants us to be talking about Brexit. 2024 GE will be about playing that old tune one more time.
    It is all he will have left.
    If that is their strategy then they are doomed. It is as stupid in the opposite way as the Remoaners (rather than Remainers) after the referendum who thought that Brexit would be such a disaster they would be able to drive the Brexiteers from power and reverse the result.

    As some clever people observed on here both before and after the referendum, Brexit was never gong to as good or as bad as the opposite sides claimed. It was a process - necessary from my point of view, unnecessary from the view of Remain voters - which would allow further changes as we move forward rather than being some sort of big bang change that so many claimed.

    If the Tory party are hanging their hopes on Brexit making any difference one way or another by 2024 then they are deluded.

    Starmer seems to get this which is just one reason amongst many why I think he would make a better PM right now than Johnson.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.
    Yup. Brexit, plus “strong leader” on Russia (worst thing anyone can do is get stuck into whataboutery over precious donations because he’ll just say “Ukraine”), and I now think some wedge issues around new U.K. oil drilling etc, wrapped in “energy sovereignty” “take back control” speak. Oh, and a bit of culture war, plus outflanking Labour on NHS/police numbers I expect.
    Labour can totally outgun Johnson on NHS and police etc, if Reeves does her maths right. There is a massive ton of money that could be raised in this country by better taxation that does not involve charging the average working person extra NI.

    Starmer needs to be bold. Or at least let his team be bold.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited March 2022
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is truly disgraceful. Despicable. Any thought of inviting this man to an 🇪🇺 summit should be shelved. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    That would be an unhelpful reaction. It doesn't help the EU or anyone else to not invite the UK PM to summits they otherwise intended to invite him to. All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed. I hope the EU are sensible enough not to act in such a petty manner.

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Things are not judged solely on who they annoy or offend, but on their own merits.
    If you were the EU, would you be feeling inclined to invite someone who had just compared you to Putin's Russia ? It certainly wouldn't be the right decision not to, but I can't say I would be particularly surprised if it made a decision not to more likely.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    GE 2024:

    We have a plan for a new britain in the 2030s vs Brexit got done, let's celebrate how wonderful Boris is.

    Labour looks forward.

    Johnson's Tories look back to 2016.

    By 2024, 2016 will be old. History. The past. Nearly a decade will have flowed under the bridge.

    Starmer must make the next election about a plan for the future. Who can write that plan? He needs to be finding out asap.

    We face very high inflation, caused by multiple supply shocks.

    Sadly, the appropriate response economic response is pretty much the reverse of what is currently offered by the Tories.

    I’m not sure Labour realises this either.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    biggles said:

    Starmers task is to make 2024 about the future. Not about Brexit. That is done. Now we look forward. What is next?

    Wilson showed the way.

    Yup. In some ways he’d be best rarely referring to Boris and co at all.
    Good idea. Look as if he is irrelevant. We've moved on. The cost of living is a gift, sadly - but still a gift, Johnson looks out of touch and lost as that crisis engulfs the tories. Who gives a flying feck about the 2016 vote when your energy bill has gone by by £1,000?
    Yup. The important thing for Labour to grasp is that Brexit is a fact of life now, and many of the voters they need like it. They also aren’t, frankly, going to change any of the fundamentals of the 2020 settlement in a first term. So ignore it. Take it as a given and talk about things that affect people every day. You might think Brexit is implicated, but don’t say that. Focus on the solution starting from here.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is truly disgraceful. Despicable. Any thought of inviting this man to an 🇪🇺 summit should be shelved. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    That would be an unhelpful reaction. It doesn't help the EU or anyone else to not invite the UK PM to summits they otherwise intended to invite him to. All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed. I hope the EU are sensible enough not to act in such a petty manner.

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Things are not judged solely on who they annoy or offend, but on their own merits.
    If you were the EU, would you be feeling inclined to invite someone who had just compared you to Putin's Russia ? It certainly wouldn't be the right decision not to, but I can't say I would be particularly surprised if it might the decision not to more likely.
    Because Ukraine matters more than we or the EU do and the British PM has to be part of the discussion.

    As it happens I don’t think he quite said that, or that his speech was anything other than the usual politics, but I can see why you (and they) would, at least for effect.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:


    To me everything has changed and how each party faces the huge problems going forward will decide GE24

    I do expect problems for labour and the SNP if they object to the development of oil and gas fields within the UK as we becoming self sufficient in the transition to net zero and stop importing energy, not just from Russia but elsewhere when we can provide it ourselves and with high paid UK jobs

    Net Zero is one thing - being self-sufficient in energy is another. We can ramp up oil and gas production but that won't make us net zero - investing more in renewables seems the obvious way forward and it wasn't that long ago we had 0% of our energy derived from coal on some days.

    The other side of the equation is how much energy we use and whether a few simple measures could reduce our energy consumption but that will depend on the degree to which we are prepared to change (or compromise) our lifestyle to reduce energy consumption. That's going to be the harder sell.
    It is a balance but it is a 20 year transition

    I would recommend that HMG makes energy efficiency in homes a statutory requirement with a minimum rating of C required on the sale of property, thereby making improving energy efficiency a real positive but also that house sales will need to reflect in negotiations the costs and no doubt the owner reducing the price or the buyer greeing to make the investment

    I understand some mortgages are available at at lower interest rates already for energy efficient homes

    The cost according to X rebellion is one trillion to insulate all our homes and that is not possible from the government purse
    It won't cost anything like a trillion. XR are dickheads.
    How much do you think it will cost for every home in the UK
    Let's assume there are 20 million homes in the UK. That's probably not too far from the truth.

    Now, at the one end you'll have 100 year old homes that have never had any insulation and leak heat like a sieve. On the other, you'll have modern apartment complexes with double or triple glazing, which will require nothing.

    Let's also not forget that the 80:20 rule applies here. You can achieve an awful lot pretty easily - you don't need to do *everything*, you can do the most cost effective things (such as roof insulation) pretty easily and cheaply.

    So, I'd say you can do an awful lot with just 20 billion.
    The easiest thing to do is to make sure that you have the highest standards in new builds, but every time a government proposes doing such a thing, the building industry sucks it collective teeth and mutters darkly about the government's house-building targets, and the standards are watered down, and implementation is delayed.
    That’s true. Developers can also water down the environmental standards of new builds by arguing that they’re not ‘viable’.

    An interesting stat is that 80% of the housing stock that will exist in 2050 is already built. Improving the thermal efficiency of the old stock is a mammoth task.

    It’s estimated that to bring the housing stock in Leeds alone to zero carbon (admittedly a very ambitious target) will be somewhere north of £5bn. Current government funding is targeted at social housing. Where the money will come from to help meet the cost for the private rented and owner occupiers is currently unknown.

    It’s a bit of a mess really. I’m all for zero carbon and I hope renewable energy generation comes on leaps and bounds as technology improves. But we might have to rely on fossil for some time yet, as unpalatable as that may be for some. And we have to figure out how to make old housing massively more thermal efficient and decide how we’re going to pay for it.
    There's a shopping list of changes that can be implemented to reduce energy usage - from insulation to solar panels to double glazing to LED lighting to more efficient household appliances.

    Some of these things are cheap, and have a big effect. Some are expensive, and only have a small one.

    Rather than fixating on the 'ohmygodweneedtodoeverythingatonce' number, how about identifying the lowest hanging fruit, and implementing them.

    And when we've done that, we'll have reduced energy usage (and imports) meaningfully, and then we can ask 'what next?'
    I heard a story about a couple who claimed to have turned the heating down by a degree each time it was recommended and are now at 4 degrees, or something like.
    I generally wonder how much low hanging fruit is left. Surely most have energy efficient light bulbs by now? And have lagged the loft? What is the true status of the targets in U.K. housing stock? I know they’re not all passive houses, but I dont believe that they are all single glazed uninsulated wrecks either.
    Energy use is not a sin - it is a hallmark of prosperity and progress. I haven't listened to Boris's speech, and don't intend to, but it seems like we're being offered a prospectus of cold showers and gruel, much like Churchill's blood, toil, sweat and tears, with wicked uncle Vlad and his gas taps being cast in the Hitler role.

    Speaking personally, I do not accord to quality of life in Britain being lessened because a foreign country invaded another foreign country. And for a Government to impose such a change is a grotesque dereliction of duty.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited March 2022

    Starmers task is to make 2024 about the future. Not about Brexit. That is done. Now we look forward. What is next?

    Wilson showed the way.

    As did Blair and Attlee.
    Bit of a pattern there.
    Labour win when they focus on the future and not the past.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is truly disgraceful. Despicable. Any thought of inviting this man to an 🇪🇺 summit should be shelved. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    That would be an unhelpful reaction. It doesn't help the EU or anyone else to not invite the UK PM to summits they otherwise intended to invite him to. All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed. I hope the EU are sensible enough not to act in such a petty manner.

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Things are not judged solely on who they annoy or offend, but on their own merits.
    If you were the EU, would you be feeling inclined to invite someone who had just compared you to Putin's Russia ? It certainly wouldn't be the right decision not to, but I can't say I would be particularly surprised if it made a decision not to more likely.
    I'd hope that today's news from the mayor of Mariupol would concentrate minds.
  • I would just comment that we all know Boris misspeaks and on Brexit it causes meltdown with those EU devotees

    I would just say this will not be the last, and he may pay the price but caution maybe prudent when it comes to the unique politician, that is Boris Johnson

    And with that I say goodnight on the day my son had his first 'shout ' and he and two colleagues rescued a young lady from the sea in the early hours of this morning and who apparently did not want rescuing

    There is good in the world

    Good night folks
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scottish parents completing census forms are being advised they can assign the sex of their children, including toddlers, according to “what describes them better”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/parents-told-they-can-swap-toddlers-sex-in-scottish-census-5s7mqnnnw
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    edited March 2022

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Pssst If a part of the next election is about Brexit, then Boris wins. Just saying. If you dislike the man, focus on the parties etc.

    Yep.

    His new strategy man has said as much. Johnson wants 2024 to be a division election between 'yay' Brexit and regret Brexit thereby avoiding the economic shitstorm he is presiding over.
    Yup. Brexit, plus “strong leader” on Russia (worst thing anyone can do is get stuck into whataboutery over precious donations because he’ll just say “Ukraine”), and I now think some wedge issues around new U.K. oil drilling etc, wrapped in “energy sovereignty” “take back control” speak. Oh, and a bit of culture war, plus outflanking Labour on NHS/police numbers I expect.
    Labour can totally outgun Johnson on NHS and police etc, if Reeves does her maths right. There is a massive ton of money that could be raised in this country by better taxation that does not involve charging the average working person extra NI.

    Starmer needs to be bold. Or at least let his team be bold.
    All fine but until Starmer is able to say that a man in a dress with a cock and bollocks is, actually, a man in a dress and not a woman he's going to struggle to win Tory voters over. Blair would have cleared this up by now and told the transgender activists to get fucked and support the Greens or Lib Dems if they don't like it. Starmer isn't strong enough to withstand a few days of twitter condemnation from the loud minority who will try and cancel him.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    I imagine that Brexit is to Boris what making love to a beautiful woman is to Swiss Toni. Doesn't matter what he's actually talking about: it's got to be linked back to Brexit/making love to a beautiful woman.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited March 2022

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is truly disgraceful. Despicable. Any thought of inviting this man to an 🇪🇺 summit should be shelved. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    That would be an unhelpful reaction. It doesn't help the EU or anyone else to not invite the UK PM to summits they otherwise intended to invite him to. All it would achieve is momentary satisfaction, at the cost of cooperation at a time when cooperation is needed. I hope the EU are sensible enough not to act in such a petty manner.

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Things are not judged solely on who they annoy or offend, but on their own merits.
    If you were the EU, would you be feeling inclined to invite someone who had just compared you to Putin's Russia ? It certainly wouldn't be the right decision not to, but I can't say I would be particularly surprised if it made a decision not to more likely.
    And what a stupid decision that would be. A lot of people claim the EU have been the grown ups in the room when it comes to Brexit matters, not always correctly (though our lot have been worse). This would be a chance to prove it was true, in this case, and I suggest they take it. Taking the high road would speak for itself rather than throwing a fit which undermines other work.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited March 2022

    I would just comment that we all know Boris misspeaks and on Brexit it causes meltdown with those EU devotees

    I would just say this will not be the last, and he may pay the price but caution maybe prudent when it comes to the unique politician, that is Boris Johnson

    And with that I say goodnight on the day my son had his first 'shout ' and he and two colleagues rescued a young lady from the sea in the early hours of this morning and who apparently did not want rescuing

    There is good in the world

    Good night folks

    But he didn't misspeak. It was deliberate. Start from there. You can argue he was right or wrong. Foolish, offensive, or savvy.
    But don't pretend it wasn't planned.

    And well done your son.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    Scottish parents completing census forms are being advised they can assign the sex of their children, including toddlers, according to “what describes them better”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/parents-told-they-can-swap-toddlers-sex-in-scottish-census-5s7mqnnnw

    Completely insane. Sex is intrinsic. It's the kind of shit that makes me want to run to be an MP and win power rather than wait for the silent majority to tell them to get fucked at an election.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    Cyclefree said:

    One of the reasons I wrote the header for the last thread was because of the continuing failure to learn from other problems and also sharing good practice. The sharing of knowledge is one thing that is essential to preventing problems recurring.

    There was to be a conference of child psychiatrists at Great Ormond Street. But because a pro-trans charity objected to some of the participants (who the fuck made them arbiters anyway?) the conference has been cancelled.

    And so child psychiatrists dealing with troubled children needing the most sensitive and best evidenced care possible will be deprived of an opportunity to share knowledge, have open honest discussion etc. The people they will not be hearing from include -

    1. The Director of the Tavistock Clinic, Dr Polly Carmichael
    2. Dr Hilary Cass - who is leading the NHS's Independent Review into GID services
    3. Dr David Bell, a psychiatrist who worked at the Tavistock for 25 years and who resigned after becoming a whistleblower
    4. The former head of psychology at the Tavistock
    5. Helen Joyce - who wrote "Trans".

    And many others.

    I ask again - why is a small charity able to bully a major hospital in this way? Why does a major hospital allow itself to be bullied? Frank and honest debate on sensitive topics is needed more than ever. When there is no debate, when information is not shared, when concerns are not addressed, that is when sloppy, bad or dangerous practice begins to develop and spread - with dangerous consequences for the vulnerable. It is iniquitous.

    Dr Cass said just this in her interim report - that the toxic debate around adult gender issues had badly impacted on the care available for children because of the fear it had engendered among professionals in the field.

    I feel strongly about this because one of my children was one of those vulnerable children and if I had not had the determination and means to get them away from the utterly inadequate and misguided care on offer God knows what would have happened. Well, I do know. We'd be visiting a grave every week.

    These bullies are beneath contempt.

    Sfaict from the Telegraph report, the conference was cancelled after "complaints from all sides" and the withdrawal of invited trans activist speakers who objected to other speakers.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/19/great-ormond-street-cancels-trainee-doctor-conference-trans/ (£££)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all, beyond tory conferences, and day-to-day polling . He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.

    He just doesn't have the breadth of vision to be Prime Minister, even when it looks like he's showing some signs of it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1505324160679124994?s=21

    In 2019, the salience of Brexit (72%) was its highest since 1972. In February it was 13%, its lowest since December 2015. It will be very difficult to fight the next election as if its 2016-19

    (Tweet includes chart)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1505324160679124994?s=21

    In 2019, the salience of Brexit (72%) was its highest since 1972. In February it was 13%, its lowest since December 2015. It will be very difficult to fight the next election as if its 2016-19

    (Tweet includes chart)

    Wont stop Johnson trying. Starmer needs a plan.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited March 2022
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    A key part of our reputation over the last month has been to galvanise western unity. The two are effectively one and the same ; damaging the function, through undermining of the reputation.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    To some degree, but that was just from idiots on twitter, I don't recall Macron or Scholz saying anything about it. If idiots in twitter we're making the comparison then who gives a fuck right? This is the PM of the UK, that still means something despite how much Boris has debased the office.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all, beyond tory conferences, and day-to-day polling . He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.

    He just doesn't have the breadth of vision to be Prime Minister, even when it looks like he's showing some signs of it.
    Boris is right. Ukraine, in a way, IS like Brexit

    Putin is trying to destroy democracy. How is that different from what the Remoaners did with their 2nd referendum shit? Remoaners ARE c*nts, just like Putin

    Boris should double down and say Jacob Rees Mogg is the Azov Battalion of eurosceptics, being targeted by the Wagner group of Anna Soubry
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
    Synthetic because it was an irrelevant metric and mainly served as a distraction from the EU's weaker position on energy.

    https://twitter.com/RobinBrooksIIF/status/1505169457198604290

    Russia's financial conditions are easing and the bite of our sanctions is fading, because Russia's energy exports are constantly generating hard currency inflows, so - even though we blocked FX reserves - Russia is generating new ones. A Russian energy boycott would stop this...
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Ukrainian forces have defeated the initial Russian campaign of this war.  That campaign aimed to conduct airborne and mechanized operations to seize Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odesa, and other major Ukrainian cities to force a change of government in Ukraine. That campaign has culminated. Russian forces continue to make limited advances in some parts of the theater but are very unlikely to be able to seize their objectives in this way.  The doctrinally sound Russian response to this situation would be to end this campaign, accept a possibly lengthy operational pause, develop the plan for a new campaign, build up resources for that new campaign, and launch it when the resources and other conditions are ready.

    https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-19

    The question is if the West is stupid enough to give the Russians room to do this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
    A lot of that was down to the UK having already sanctioned a lot of the list the EU agreed. You can't sanction people twice so there was a big element of catch up. I think the larger point is that even that rubbish was twitter nonsense, this is the PM which makes it substantive.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all, beyond tory conferences, and day-to-day polling . He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.

    He just doesn't have the breadth of vision to be Prime Minister, even when it looks like he's showing some signs of it.
    Boris is right. Ukraine, in a way, IS like Brexit

    Putin is trying to destroy democracy. How is that different from what the Remoaners did with their 2nd referendum shit? Remoaners ARE c*nts, just like Putin

    Boris should double down and say Jacob Rees Mogg is the Azov Battalion of eurosceptics, being targeted by the Wagner group of Anna Soubry
    Absurd.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Scott_xP said:

    Heseltine: “Boris Johnson cannot escape his responsibility for the disasters of Brexit by a cynical exploitation of the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/19/pms-comparison-of-ukraine-resistance-to-uk-brexit-vote-criticised-as-crass

    Strange that tonight you have been quoting all those who have never come to terms with Brexit

    Boris was silly but all these posts are doing is helping Putin by sowing division
    The PM sowed division by likening the EU to Putin and by implication calling Remain voters traitors. He is utterly lacking in class and a disgrace to this country. Anyone who defends him is swimming in the same sewer.
    You need to listen to the whole speech
    I really don't. The man is a fucking embarassment. You're a Tory member, just get rid of him already, I'm so tired of his shit.
    I am not a conservative member nor have been for six months

    The matter of Boris's future rests with his mps and unless they act he could be fighting an election as late as January 2025
    January 2025??
    It was established earlier that the changes to the FTPA requires an election by mid January 2025 at the latest
    Really oh I thought it had to be December 2024 at the latest.

    Thanks Big G
    I laid out the timetable as best as I could find sources here: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3849282/#Comment_3849282
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
    Read the fucking news for once. We had to tread carefully because of prior court cases. In the end British sanctions on Russia have proved the most significant in the world, alongside those of the USA

    That is partly because so much Russian cash was parked in London - private and state - and that may be intrinsically regrettable (or not) but that is an entirely different argument. The fact is the sanctions bile aimed at Britain was indeed "synthetic". As MaxPB says
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
    A lot of that was down to the UK having already sanctioned a lot of the list the EU agreed. You can't sanction people twice so there was a big element of catch up. I think the larger point is that even that rubbish was twitter nonsense, this is the PM which makes it substantive.
    I actually think the government were trying to figure out how to sanction lawfully.

    We can see with Chelsea it’s not a switch you can just flick.

    The problem is they communicated very poorly; claimed we were “world leading”; accused critics of Russophobia etc. The usual crap. Coupled with their known fondness for Russian money, they looked like they were foot dragging.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    BBC have finally reported Johnson's remarks. Apparently it's offended Ed Davey, Gavin Barwell and Donald Tusk . And that is a bad thing how?

    Also Guy Verhoefwhatsit

    And Michael Heseltine

    The Guardian just can't help themselves. These are the people they quote

    Boris' remarks were clumsy and ugly, but I can now see a logic. Get the stupid Remoaners to over-react and condemn Brexit outright, then kick off the Brexit Culture Wars all over again, and reunite the Leavery tribe, as they remember how the Remoaners really did try to torpedo democracy, so their lofty outrage is absurd and rancid

    Will it work? Dunno. But it's not necessarily THAT stupid. It was an NLAW of crassness aimed at the lumbering battletank of Remoaner hypocrisy
    The problem is the utter narrowness and short-sightedness of it all. He had helped to restore some of Britain's reputation internationally over the last month, and reverse some of his own damage to it, and this just helps to drag us all back down with him.
    It's not that, it's causing division within the western alliance at a time we need absolute unity. Completely undermines everything we're trying to achieve to bring Putin down or at least force a withdrawal from Ukraine. Our reputation globally isn't really going to change either way with this, it's the actual issue of causing unnecessary division.
    In the first days of the invasion, Western countries were racing with each other to apply the most punitive sanctions so division can be healthy if there is a common goal. Remember the synthetic sneering about the UK not sanctioning as many entities as the EU.
    What was synthetic about it?
    The UK foot dragged. Or at least, gave the strong impression of food dragging.
    Synthetic because it was an irrelevant metric and mainly served as a distraction from the EU's weaker position on energy.

    https://twitter.com/RobinBrooksIIF/status/1505169457198604290

    Russia's financial conditions are easing and the bite of our sanctions is fading, because Russia's energy exports are constantly generating hard currency inflows, so - even though we blocked FX reserves - Russia is generating new ones. A Russian energy boycott would stop this...
    Yes, this is one of the major problems. As long as we're happy buying Russian oil and gas at full price it means Putin can keep his army paid and fed. The EU absolutely needs to step up and so does the UK with ending imports of Russian oil and gas by the end of April.
This discussion has been closed.