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How will CON voters view Johnson’s relationship with Lededev? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    So far today we have had accusations that Angela Merkel was recruited by the KGB and that Boris is a Russian spy. Whatever happened to the sensible level headed comments for which PB is renowned?

    A candle shines all the brighter in the dark.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Not really. Could tell you the best books to look at for the 1980s but not the 1990s.

    I think however Robert Service's Penguin History Of Russia in the 20th Century has a list of further reading in it. But I haven't got it to hand and can't be bothered to go and look.
    Take a look at “Sale of the Century”. The title says it all.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    I’m one quarter Dundonian. I share the city’s distaste for the man who advocated gassing the Kurds.

    https://theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/sep/01/winston-churchill-shocking-use-chemical-weapons
    Twit, twit, twit, twit, twit. Churchill was advocating the use of CS gas. not in modern parlance a poison.

    I'd rather be CS gassed than

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1232632/Petrol-killer-guilty-murder-Wicked-teenager-doused-17-year-old-girlfriend-fuel-set-fire.html

    which is standard stuff fir Dundee
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    Twat of a ref at the rugby.

    Instead of 7 men at the scrum, England had 9...
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    Parked for now. But once the Ukraine war is in a new phase, hard to see how he explains this away to MPs.

    Daily Tellumguff - "How PM Made Lebedev a Lord to Fool Putin into Thinking Boris was His Buddy"
    Seriously, we can’t at this stage rule out Boris was a double agent all along, despite all appearances and the mounting evidence, he might actually have been on the side of the UK.

    Boris led us to believe he was the new Winston Churchill, until Zelenskyy came along to show us what a real Winston Churchill looks and sounds like.

    On topic. This will be viewed by the Conservative Party as the treason it is. This is the kicker: it’s not just his closeness to Putin’s inner circle here, it is how, it’s the grace and favour and friends with benefits Boris allowed himself to GET GROOMED by without a shred of awareness what was going on.
    He's got some chutzpah, hasn't he? Being a Russian agent and, in plain sight, calling himself Boris.
    Finally, Oxford gets the Russian agents it has always longed for. Cambridge is history now.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    mwadams said:

    Parked for now. But once the Ukraine war is in a new phase, hard to see how he explains this away to MPs.

    Daily Tellumguff - "How PM Made Lebedev a Lord to Fool Putin into Thinking Boris was His Buddy"
    Seriously, we can’t at this stage rule out Boris was a double agent all along, despite all appearances and the mounting evidence, he might actually have been on the side of the UK.

    Boris led us to believe he was the new Winston Churchill, until Zelenskyy came along to show us what a real Winston Churchill looks and sounds like.

    On topic. This will be viewed by the Conservative Party as the treason it is. This is the kicker: it’s not just his closeness to Putin’s inner circle here, it is how, it’s the grace and favour and friends with benefits Boris allowed himself to GET GROOMED by without a shred of awareness what was going on.
    He's got some chutzpah, hasn't he? Being a Russian agent and, in plain sight, calling himself Boris.
    Finally, Oxford gets the Russian agents it has always longed for. Cambridge is history now.
    Always had 'em. The Cambridge ones just get caught.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    “ Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition. “

    But he was a liberal from 1904? He was in the liberal government as minister for killing stuff.
    In 1945, he limited the damage by the extent of his name recognition.
    “ In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition. “

    That’s the misleading paragraph I was replying to, before you marked my Homework a fail, sir. I see now what you mean, but it was read as he was in the party 1906 and it would have been worse result if he wasn’t 😕
    you're welcome. In fairness to me, I have downed an entire bottle of Chardonnay so my clarity may not be all it should be.
    I’ve been drinking cocktails since half three, I’ve lost use of my legs but you are fortunate I can still type into my phone.

    You are being polite but you see why teachers hated me so I didn’t go to school much except for sport and arts. I always argued back with them. I had long argument with History over date of the Great Depression starting as teacher insisted 1872, but books in the library said. 1873 or 1875.
    I would have enjoyed teaching you, I like students who are knowledgeable and willing to bring that knowledge into a debate. Especially at A-level.

    I don't like arseholes who constantly criticise the way I teach them and demand I set less work, as a lazy Year 8 group I have are about to find out, but that's a different problem.
    👍🏻

    That’s a nice thing to say.

    But teachers get together and gang up on students so it sure becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of being trouble based on not much. Headmistress asked to see me and I didn’t have a clue what it was about. She warned me I was being too hands on in the showers. I said I am terribly sorry about that but i’ve always been pleased I had my fingers crossed behind my back as all I have ever remembered is everyone having a right laugh and fun so teacher must have reported me!
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited March 2022
    ydoethur said:

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Not really. Could tell you the best books to look at for the 1980s but not the 1990s.

    I think however Robert Service's Penguin History Of Russia in the 20th Century has a list of further reading in it. But I haven't got it to hand and can't be bothered to go and look.
    I'm struggling.

    Vladimir Gel’Man’s “Authoritarian Russia: Analysing post-soviet regime changes” (2015)

    Is apparently a good read. But at nearly £50 second hand its not going on my birthday list.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    So far today we have had accusations that Angela Merkel was recruited by the KGB and that Boris is a Russian spy. Whatever happened to the sensible level headed comments for which PB is renowned?

    He's not a Russian spy. He's just a useful idiot, like Farage.
    Was there anyone involved in Brexit who isn’t/wasn’t some kind of national security risk?
    17-plus million voters?
  • I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Business-Relationships-Reform-Antonys/dp/0333710835
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    Hilarious stuff from Scotland’s own Lenin-in-exile.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited March 2022
    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Not really. Could tell you the best books to look at for the 1980s but not the 1990s.

    I think however Robert Service's Penguin History Of Russia in the 20th Century has a list of further reading in it. But I haven't got it to hand and can't be bothered to go and look.
    Take a look at “Sale of the Century”. The title says it all.
    From Politburo to McMafia gangsters?

    Ha. We are now all moving on to a club! They are going to have to carry me 🤣
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sweden selects Hold Me Closer by Cornelia Jakobs for our Eurovision entry. Thank goodness. Ukraine has a challenger.

    They’ll still win mind.

    Ukraine 2.38
    Italy 4.4
    Sweden 15
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Applicant said:

    So far today we have had accusations that Angela Merkel was recruited by the KGB and that Boris is a Russian spy. Whatever happened to the sensible level headed comments for which PB is renowned?

    He's not a Russian spy. He's just a useful idiot, like Farage.
    Was there anyone involved in Brexit who isn’t/wasn’t some kind of national security risk?
    17-plus million voters?
    Dodgy to a man though! (Apart from one N Farage of 17 Artillery Terrace who was judged too daft!)

    (I was a leaver)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2022
    Applicant said:

    So far today we have had accusations that Angela Merkel was recruited by the KGB and that Boris is a Russian spy. Whatever happened to the sensible level headed comments for which PB is renowned?

    He's not a Russian spy. He's just a useful idiot, like Farage.
    Was there anyone involved in Brexit who isn’t/wasn’t some kind of national security risk?
    17-plus million voters?
    They were the useful idiots mentioned upthread.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Putin's useful idiots


  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Utter bullshit. He might have been if he had died in 1939. But he genuinely and almost single handedly kept Britain in the war, when others would have sued for peace. He enabled final victory, as in the old saying Britain contributed time, Russia, lives and America material (or something like that).
    When he died the country mourned. Even the dockers, no friends of the Tories, bowed their cranes as the barge passed.
    "Between 1940 and 1945 Winston Churchill was probably the most popular British prime minister of all time. In May 1945 his approval rating in the opinion polls, which had never fallen below 78 per cent, stood at 83 per cent."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/election_01.shtml
    That completely fucks with Mike's theory about opinion polls.
    Indeed.

    But please don’t challenge PB accepted wisdom.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Dundee is a very nice place to visit. My son is at Uni there and gas has a great time on a good course. It has its rough parts but where doesn’t?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    @John Lilburne, I'd struggle to think of any successful wartime leader or military commander who was not a bit of a bastard. It's an essential qualification.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Sean_F said:

    @John Lilburne, I'd struggle to think of any successful wartime leader or military commander who was not a bit of a bastard. It's an essential qualification.

    I can think of plenty.

    In the sense that they were not *a bit* of a bastard.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    edited March 2022

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Utter bullshit. He might have been if he had died in 1939. But he genuinely and almost single handedly kept Britain in the war, when others would have sued for peace. He enabled final victory, as in the old saying Britain contributed time, Russia, lives and America material (or something like that).
    When he died the country mourned. Even the dockers, no friends of the Tories, bowed their cranes as the barge passed.
    "Between 1940 and 1945 Winston Churchill was probably the most popular British prime minister of all time. In May 1945 his approval rating in the opinion polls, which had never fallen below 78 per cent, stood at 83 per cent."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/election_01.shtml
    That completely fucks with Mike's theory about opinion polls.
    Indeed.

    But please don’t challenge PB accepted wisdom.
    Just bet against it if you disagree!

    Edit:
    (The heart of PB is of course disagreement - to the extent we disagree, then lets settle it with a bet)

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Sweden selects Hold Me Closer by Cornelia Jakobs for our Eurovision entry. Thank goodness. Ukraine has a challenger.

    They’ll still win mind.

    Ukraine 2.38
    Italy 4.4
    Sweden 15

    For a few seconds I thought it was David Essex cover.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    That’s exactly what a Russian agent would ask!!!!

    Found another one.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    Lots of crystal meth in them parts. Coincidentally.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    biggles said:

    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    That’s exactly what a Russian agent would ask!!!!

    Found another one.
    Вы нашли меня! его справедливое полицейское правительство.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    Do you not get bored of your own rubbish?
    He never seems to.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    There’s far more evidence that Germany’s energy policies were useful to Putin than that Brexit was.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Scott_xP said:

    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2

    How nice of her ! Even this useless government seems to have worked out that starting another drama and more anti EU bile might not be a good look at this time .
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Yet more shit leadership from Root letting Stokes bowl. Batsman? Yup, first name on the team sheet. Captain? Nope.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Not really. Could tell you the best books to look at for the 1980s but not the 1990s.

    I think however Robert Service's Penguin History Of Russia in the 20th Century has a list of further reading in it. But I haven't got it to hand and can't be bothered to go and look.
    Take a look at “Sale of the Century”. The title says it all.
    From Politburo to McMafia gangsters?

    Ha. We are now all moving on to a club! They are going to have to carry me 🤣
    Enjoy and make sure you don’t wake up in a stranger’s bed :)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    There’s far more evidence that Germany’s energy policies were useful to Putin than that Brexit was.
    Sure. An energy policy keeps you warm and fed, though. Brexit otoh...
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Nigelb said:

    If confirmed, then (very) significant.
    There are Initial Reports coming out that a Ukrainian Counteroffensive has Secured the town of Volnovakha in the Donetsk Region effectively breaking the Siege on the Ukrainian held Coastal city of Mariupol which is just South of the town and the Key Donetsk-Mariupol Highway.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1502719026522431492

    Slightly surprised if the Ukrainians have resources to counter-attack in the south (there was overnight news of a counter-attack in Kharkiv too). Assumed they were keeping force in reserve to repel the katsapy from Kyiv.
    Catch the bastards napping, not a bad plan.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    Ronaldo. Simply the best player of all time. 59 hat tricks. Absolutely ridiculous.

    Maradona says hello.
    I am 58. Maradona emerged shortly after I started watching football seriously. Subsequently, I’ve seen and admired all the other contenders: Zidane, Figo, Messi, Ronaldo etc. All truly great players, but none of them as good as Maradona, who was simply the greatest of all time.
    Yes. I concur. Unlike the others he rarely played for great teams with superstars round him. He dragged ordinary sides to win Championships.
    He almost signed for Sheffield United.
    They got Alex Sabella instead.
    A friend of mine saw Maradonna a few years back in a soft play centre in Chorlton, Manchester. I think he is related to one of Man City' players who had a small child who Maradonna was looking after. Having a lovely time, he was.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Nigelb said:
    The chap who nearly sold me a Saracen APC told me that the things he'd seen people do with tanks, it terms of ludicrous places they'd end up, was one of his joys in running a drive-a-tank-thing.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    Ronaldo. Simply the best player of all time. 59 hat tricks. Absolutely ridiculous.

    Maradona says hello.
    I am 58. Maradona emerged shortly after I started watching football seriously. Subsequently, I’ve seen and admired all the other contenders: Zidane, Figo, Messi, Ronaldo etc. All truly great players, but none of them as good as Maradona, who was simply the greatest of all time.
    Yes. I concur. Unlike the others he rarely played for great teams with superstars round him. He dragged ordinary sides to win Championships.
    He almost signed for Sheffield United.
    They got Alex Sabella instead.
    A friend of mine saw Maradonna a few years back in a soft play centre in Chorlton, Manchester. I think he is related to one of Man City' players who had a small child who Maradonna was looking after. Having a lovely time, he was.

    Aguero's father-in-law.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited March 2022

    Nigelb said:
    The chap who nearly sold me a Saracen APC told me that the things he'd seen people do with tanks, it terms of ludicrous places they'd end up, was one of his joys in running a drive-a-tank-thing.

    Saracens were NBC rated weren’t they? Bet you’re regretting the decision not to buy. You could camp out in the garden when the sirens go off.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    Do you not get bored of your own rubbish?
    Always gets a good crop of replies, mind.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    Let me explain. It was late on an autumn evening, I walked up past the little Catholic church on the promontory and looked alone across the bay, Angus's seaside towns dotted across and Dundee tucked behind the hill. And as I stood, the nightlit towns, Dundee included, appeared a little way above the backdrop hills, and hovered on and off for the next 20 minutes - the reflections of the street lamps suspended as, what I understood many years later to be, Fata Morgana.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:
    The chap who nearly sold me a Saracen APC told me that the things he'd seen people do with tanks, it terms of ludicrous places they'd end up, was one of his joys in running a drive-a-tank-thing.

    Saracens were NBC rated weren’t they? Bet you’re regretting the decision not to buy. You could camp out in the garden when the sirens go off.
    And then.. camp out in the garden..

    After that, on tuesdays, ..camp out in the garden

    Happily though there were always the holidays, we ...camped out in the garden. but had little flags in the baked beans.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022
    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2

    How nice of her ! Even this useless government seems to have worked out that starting another drama and more anti EU bile might not be a good look at this time .
    I have predicted this for months and before this war

    Time for both sides to come together for the greater good and cooperate on security, defence and improving trade between UK and EU
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:
    The chap who nearly sold me a Saracen APC told me that the things he'd seen people do with tanks, it terms of ludicrous places they'd end up, was one of his joys in running a drive-a-tank-thing.

    Saracens were NBC rated weren’t they? Bet you’re regretting the decision not to buy. You could camp out in the garden when the sirens go off.
    It was part of a business plan that fell down on getting hire-and-reward insurance for it. Since the type had never been assessed for that, we would have had to pay for the insurance assessment. You could get regular insurance for it for £50 (or something silly like that) - A year.

    The strangest moment was when a guy at the *DVLA* advised me to run it on standard insurance, since everyone else was using standard insurance to run businesses with un-assessed vehicles - such as those ghastly HumVee things.
  • biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    Do you not get bored of your own rubbish?
    All it does is polarise both sides to neither gain
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Its not a book, but this chap is quite interesting: Andrey Illarionov he was a key economic adviser at one point being Putins top economic adviser, where he encouraged, de-regulation and low flat taxes based on Laffer curve, that enabled the Russian economy to recover a lot in late 1990s and early 2000s, he then fell out with Putin over his increasingly authoritarian side and came to the west in 2005. and is now very very vocal critic of him, I am not sure if he has written a book, but there are a few youtube videos with him giving talks, here is one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2fGDfLAFpA

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ping said:

    The latest
    @OpiniumResearch

    @ObserverUK
    poll shows a 2 point Labour lead, which has halved since a fortnight ago.

    Con 35% (+1)
    Lab 37% (-1)
    Lib Dem 9% (-2)
    Green 7% (+1)

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1502736435064967168

    Three months and 6 days since the last Tory poll lead.
    Seven years and 7 months since the last Unionist poll lead:

    SLab 37%
    SNP 36%
    SCon 16%
    SLD 4%

    (YouGov/The Sun; 1,142; 4-7 August 2014)
    Seems like a lifetime ago
    Indeed. Remember Cleggasm?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    ping said:

    The latest
    @OpiniumResearch

    @ObserverUK
    poll shows a 2 point Labour lead, which has halved since a fortnight ago.

    Con 35% (+1)
    Lab 37% (-1)
    Lib Dem 9% (-2)
    Green 7% (+1)

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1502736435064967168

    Three months and 6 days since the last Tory poll lead.
    Seven years and 7 months since the last Unionist poll lead:

    SLab 37%
    SNP 36%
    SCon 16%
    SLD 4%

    (YouGov/The Sun; 1,142; 4-7 August 2014)
    Seems like a lifetimegeneration ago
    Corrected?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2

    How nice of her ! Even this useless government seems to have worked out that starting another drama and more anti EU bile might not be a good look at this time .
    I have predicted this for months and before this war

    Time for both sides to cone together for the greater good and cooperate on security, defence and improving trade between UK and EU
    Europhilia is back in fashion! Boris is a lucky boy: Farage and other elements of the Brexit Right have utterly discredited themselves over Putin and Ukraine, so Boris can now re-board that bus without having to worry about his right flank.
  • nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2

    How nice of her ! Even this useless government seems to have worked out that starting another drama and more anti EU bile might not be a good look at this time .
    I have predicted this for months and before this war

    Time for both sides to cone together for the greater good and cooperate on security, defence and improving trade between UK and EU
    Europhilia is back in fashion! Boris is a lucky boy: Farage and other elements of the Brexit Right have utterly discredited themselves over Putin and Ukraine, so Boris can now re-board that bus without having to worry about his right flank.
    I am sure you are correct and a closer relationship is almost certainly going to develop
  • Hyundai withdraws Chelsea sponsorship
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴 Liz Truss has set out plans to put the potential triggering of Article 16 on hold because of the Ukraine crisis and instead help Northern Ireland businesses with an "economic stimulus" package including tax cuts https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/12/liz-truss-reveals-plan-put-article-16-hold-ukraine-war/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1647119703-2

    How nice of her ! Even this useless government seems to have worked out that starting another drama and more anti EU bile might not be a good look at this time .
    I have predicted this for months and before this war

    Time for both sides to cone together for the greater good and cooperate on security, defence and improving trade between UK and EU
    Europhilia is back in fashion! Boris is a lucky boy: Farage and other elements of the Brexit Right have utterly discredited themselves over Putin and Ukraine, so Boris can now re-board that bus without having to worry about his right flank.
    I am sure you are correct and a closer relationship is almost certainly going to develop
    Hand in glove, but not in-pocket is the happy state.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    ydoethur said:

    I've been looking for books on Russian economic liberalisation (1990s). Has anyone any leads?

    Not really. Could tell you the best books to look at for the 1980s but not the 1990s.

    I think however Robert Service's Penguin History Of Russia in the 20th Century has a list of further reading in it. But I haven't got it to hand and can't be bothered to go and look.
    I'm struggling.

    Vladimir Gel’Man’s “Authoritarian Russia: Analysing post-soviet regime changes” (2015)

    Is apparently a good read. But at nearly £50 second hand its not going on my birthday list.
    Gessen’s the Future is History
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
  • @Leon

    'The Victoria Falls are massively overrated....'

    Second big disappointment of the honeymoon, so I'm told.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Is there a PB chess playing community? I'd seek an invite if so.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    Do you not get bored of your own rubbish?
    All it does is polarise both sides to neither gain
    I find when I read books about the holocaust, they tend to be quite polarising. Oddly, I do not end up thinking yada yada, faults on both sides.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    IshmaelZ said:

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    Do you not get bored of your own rubbish?
    All it does is polarise both sides to neither gain
    I find when I read books about the holocaust, they tend to be quite polarising. Oddly, I do not end up thinking yada yada, faults on both sides.
    Not so oddly.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    Indeed. Poltava seemed to be entirely Russian-speaking when I was there. Didn't stop them flying Stepan Bandera's flag from the victory column though.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    "At the beginning of the 20th century, the city was predominantly Russian in population, but after the Soviet government's policy of Ukrainization the city became populated mainly by Ukrainians with a significant number of Russians."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Hyundai withdraws Chelsea sponsorship

    Korea-changing move.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    Hyundai withdraws Chelsea sponsorship

    Korea-changing move.
    Surely a Korea break.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    Hilarious stuff from Scotland’s own Lenin-in-exile.
    Hardly. I served as a councillor for the Moderates. Not known for our Leninism.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
    one of those The url says it all situations, I feel

    Look, there was no fucking law against Scots representing Dundee or leading the Scotch Fusiliers at any relevant time. What does that tell you?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    Putin's useful idiots


    They have served their purpose.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    "At the beginning of the 20th century, the city was predominantly Russian in population, but after the Soviet government's policy of Ukrainization the city became populated mainly by Ukrainians with a significant number of Russians."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv
    AIUI, in the east of Ukraine, many of the villages are frequently Russian while big towns and city's have mostly Ukrainian population, where as in the centre and west the countryside is almost entirely Ukraine and the big towns and city's have significant Russian populations. all to do with when the city's grow in size and who was moving there at the time, i.e. not necessarily the local peasant farmers, who where often obliged to stay on the land both under Czar and communism.



    however lots of caveats, Russian and Russian speaking are not the same thing, significant population is not the same as majority, and somebody who may come form a long family of Russians or Ukrainians may or may not still Identify that way, and ether way is not the same as a Russian Passport holder, and so on. and how people Identify after this was will probably be slightly different anyway.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    Indeed. Poltava seemed to be entirely Russian-speaking when I was there. Didn't stop them flying Stepan Bandera's flag from the victory column though.
    In 2001, 85% of Poltavans were Ukrainian-speakers, 14% Russian-speakers:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Населення_Полтави

    (auto-translated in Edge)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
    One of the best of my friends is a Scotsman, a passionate europhile. I guess I might be more Scottish than he is though.

    I would lay down my life for my friend, without a thought, and with perhaps a certain wistfulness I'd protect his children simarly.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    Russian котёл, cauldron. Not sure if there is a verb. To strategically encircle the enemy and then destroy in detail using artillery, air power etc. WW2 military doctrine.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
    One of the best of my friends is a Scotsman, a passionate europhile. I guess I might be more Scottish than he is though.

    I would lay down my life for my friend, without a thought, and with perhaps a certain wistfulness I'd protect his children simarly.
    On no account discontinue the tablets without consulting your medical team.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
    one of those The url says it all situations, I feel

    Look, there was no fucking law against Scots representing Dundee or leading the Scotch Fusiliers at any relevant time. What does that tell you?
    The url? Err… thoroughly Unionist if the reviews are anything to go by:

    Extracts from some reviews of Scottish Military Disasters

    "Author and war journalist Paul Cowan gives a pithy thumbnail sketch of each battle or incident (the longest episode is nine pages), and sets each event in the context of its time and also lists, where appropriate, its military or historical consequences. All in all, it is a cracking good read."
    --Brian Townsend, The Courier

    "[T]his pacy, lucidly written history is extremely readable and highly informative"
    —Martin Tierney, The Herald

    "A fascinating and highly recommended read."
    —Ian Smith, Scots Magazine
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    Rubbish. Serious rubbish. He was no doubt too English, too posh and not tall enough for you, he had all kinds of faults but he was as right as right could be on the biggest question ever asked of this country, his physical courage was such that he went to fight in the trenches at the head of a bunch of Scottishers, and he was the greatest orator the world has known, at the moment oratory was what was most wanted.
    A bunch of Scottishers?

    Whatever.

    “Although an Englishman, it was in Scotland that I found the three best things in my life: my wife, my constituency and my regiment,” he once announced to his officers. His declaration of regimental loyalty should be judged by his insistence on wearing the uniform of the Oxfordshire Hussars in later life.

    https://www.scottishmilitarydisasters.com/index.php/titles-sp-26803/66-churchill-in-the-trenches
    One of the best of my friends is a Scotsman, a passionate europhile. I guess I might be more Scottish than he is though.

    I would lay down my life for my friend, without a thought, and with perhaps a certain wistfulness I'd protect his children simarly.
    On no account discontinue the tablets without consulting your medical team.
    As you say.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    I’ve not been to Iguazu, but Gullfoss was incredible for the surprise. The time I visited there were no more than 3 or 4 tourists (there would be more now) and it was so under-marketed there was no expectation at all. I thought our little trip had peaked at Geysir.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    And to think that people used to say that travel broadened the mind.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
    Nice and distant from any WW3 fallout too.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    TimS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
    Nice and distant from any WW3 fallout too.
    So, immigration is a good thing now?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    Indeed. Poltava seemed to be entirely Russian-speaking when I was there. Didn't stop them flying Stepan Bandera's flag from the victory column though.
    In 2001, 85% of Poltavans were Ukrainian-speakers, 14% Russian-speakers:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Населення_Полтави

    (auto-translated in Edge)

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Things are getting quite difficult here in Tallinn, There is very little room to house refugees: hotels are full, Now discussions of opening schools and lots of people taking in refugees into their homes. Already there are twice the number Estonia thought they could cope with, and if we have it bad, Poland is taking in tens of thousands every day. At least 1.7 million now in Poland alone and now the forecast is maybe at total of 7 million. The UK needs to get its act together, every country in Europe is trying to help and larger countries like Britain can not just turn their backs. Putin is using terror as a weapon to create this refugee crisis and if we are not prepared to defend the Ukrainians ourselves the minimum must surely be to help the victims of this senseless and criminal war.

    As for British right wing politicians´ relationships with the Siloviki, we should note that many people warned about this a long time ago. As people here know well, I am particularly contemptuous of those like Banks, Farage, or Rees Mogg among others (and Alex Salmond, I may add), who have had close financial relationships with Russia, even when it was quite clear what kind of regime Putin leads. As for Johnson, he too was warned. At the very least all of them should disclose the precise nature of their dealings with those close to the Russian regime. However that will needs must be after this crisis abates, for now we must concentrate on saving as much as we can in Ukraine and weakening the Putin regime with all the tools we have. This does not end for at least as long as VVP leads Russia.

    In light of a conversation I was having with my father, who used to run an exchange programme with Estonia:

    How are Russians in Estonia reacting to what's happening?
    Mostly horrified, For the time being I would say it has brought different communities togetehr somewhat, but we will see how things develop,
    We see exactly the same in Ukraine. Kharkiv, a Russian speaking city reduced to rubble.
    Kharkiv is actually 63% Ukrainian, 33% Russian (or at least it was pre-war).
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t Russian speaking. Lots of Ukrainians speak Russian.
    Indeed. Poltava seemed to be entirely Russian-speaking when I was there. Didn't stop them flying Stepan Bandera's flag from the victory column though.
    In 2001, 85% of Poltavans were Ukrainian-speakers, 14% Russian-speakers:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Населення_Полтави

    (auto-translated in Edge)
    That is interesting. I was there about 4 years ago and everyone appeared to speak Russian, I bought my breakfast in Russian and the cafe even had its menu up in Russian. Maybe it's just that everyone uses Russian as a daily working language. Which certainly happens in Kyiv, I bought some rail tickets, wished the girl behind the kassa до побачення and she replied до свидания. You can't win. They do like it when you say будь ласка and дякую rather than пожалуйста and спасибо though.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
    Vasquez: Hey, Mira. Who's IshmaelZ?

    Ferro: He's supposed to be some kind of consultant. Apparently he saw some Waterfalls once.

    Hudson: Well, whoopee-f***in'-do! Hey, I'm impressed!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Has there ever been a discussion about trans without it descending into accusations of bigotry?
    I hate to "both sides" it, but both sides have a problem.

    But there aren't two sides, are there? I suppose I am what a mindless gammon like @kyf_100 would call anti-trans, but what I am against is opportunistic shits pretending to be trans and screwing things up for women and for the genuinely trans.
    Both sides have legitimate and persuasive positions, and I do not intend to endorse or reject either. But it's really not so helpful when discussions immediately descend into accusations of intolerance. It's a particularly bad debate because both sides tend to have a hair trigger for doing it.
    I still don't see that there are two sides. Are there two sides to the racist/anti-racist debate? Nobody morally sane could be "against" trans people, but there's some tedious but very necessary qualifications that need to be made over safety, over the making of irreversible choices by the young, and over sport. The End.
    "The End"?
    Oh, that's a pity, I had more to say. How lucky for you "The End" came just at the moment you stopped speaking.
    OK, you have the floor.
    No, it's all yours. I don't care enough about this to get in a fight about it. And it's dinner time.
    You: I have more to say

    Me: So say it

    You: I have no more to say

    Fine
    I changed my mind. I don't want to get sucked into it. So in fact I'll change what I said to a thank you, for stopping me getting more involved.
    OK

    That was Fine in English btw, I'd hate you to think it was an Italian taunt

    Good dinner?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    US embassy in Erbil being hit by 5+ rockets: https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1502772024774737923
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
    Vasquez: Hey, Mira. Who's IshmaelZ?

    Ferro: He's supposed to be some kind of consultant. Apparently he saw some Waterfalls once.

    Hudson: Well, whoopee-f***in'-do! Hey, I'm impressed!
    Hey Prassanan, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
  • Jonathan said:

    Hyundai withdraws Chelsea sponsorship

    Korea-changing move.
    Surely a Korea break.
    A Korea-limiting move.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited March 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I should have to explain why despite a war Labour is still in the lead? And this is with the new Opinium methodology?

    Has BJO given up?

    Labour led for all of the Second World War, usually by colossal margins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1945_United_Kingdom_general_election
    One of the oddest myths of the twentieth century is that Churchill was popular. He was an odious little man, widely reviled. His only redeeming feature was that he was less odious than Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco.
    In 1906, on a somewhat larger share of the vote, admittedly under a rather different franchise, the Tories fell to just 157 seats when led by the bland Arthur Balfour. Churchill limited the damage partly by the extent of his name recognition.

    He was undoubtedly popular, although he was also controversial. That's not to say he wasn't also a deeply flawed character. There was a reason why he was out of government from 1929 to 1939.
    Dundonians had the measure of the man.

    In fairness, he despised Dundonians as much as they despised him.
    By voting him in at two by-elections and three consecutive general elections? If you say so.
    - “… you will search in vain for a monument to Winston Churchill, despite the fact that he was Dundee’s MP for a full fourteen years, from 1908 until his humiliating defeat in 1922.

    If I am right, there was such a plan but it came to nought. In the decades after that defeat, Dundee’s relationship with the great man was slightly fraught.

    The froideur, it seems, was returned. In 1943, at the height of Churchill’s wartime power, councillors in Dundee agreed by a single vote to offer him the Freedom of the City. The offer was curtly declined.“

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3xkCTcZDNkg0DGHrgJWJ52t/dundee-the-beginning-of-me-and-modern-scotland
    Have you been to Dundee? I wouldn't take the Freedom of the place if you paid me

    It rankles with you that WSC had to represent one of your constituencies, lead your Fusiliers and win a world war for you. No good deed goes unpunished.
    The closest I had to a religious experience in my life was a vision of Dundee across the Firth. Literally true.
    Really? I mean, Dundee isn't exactly the Victoria Falls but I wouldn't have said it was hell on Earth either.
    The Victoria Falls are massively overrated, as epochal falls go

    Iguazu. That's where it's at. The Iguazu falls are stupefying
    You don't get to look down at elephants from a helicopter over Iguazu

    Rafting downstream of vic falls is good too
    Meh. I've done the chopper ride and the rafting and seen the elephants at Vic Falls. The Iguazu are still 5 times better. Different league

    Honorary mention for Gullfoss in Iceland and the various cascades of the Kimberley Coast
    Sure

    Checking out Iguazu next Feb/Mar. will report.
    Vasquez: Hey, Mira. Who's IshmaelZ?

    Ferro: He's supposed to be some kind of consultant. Apparently he saw some Waterfalls once.

    Hudson: Well, whoopee-f***in'-do! Hey, I'm impressed!
    Hey Prasannan, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
    No, have you??
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    Russian котёл, cauldron. Not sure if there is a verb. To strategically encircle the enemy and then destroy in detail using artillery, air power etc. WW2 military doctrine.
    Metropolitan Police applies it as well to UK subjects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/apr/14/history-police-kettling
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Farooq said:

    @malcolmg
    What are you even here for? You hate everybody, and everybody hates you. You repeatedly post content-free screeds and now you've even taken to outsourcing your invective to images. You seem to be single-handedly ensuring the convergence between the capabilities of AI and humans by dragging humanity into the dumbest recesses possible.
    I don't mind the robustness, but when there's no substance you just resemble one of those booze-addled wanker you get on the street shouting at the voices in their head. It's not even really fun winding you up because your reaction is just the same as when people are having sensible conversations.

    You remember the Scousers from the Harry Enfield show, who were always starting fights over absolutely nothing? That's you, except you're just on your own. It's just you, in a room on your own, being unreasonably upset with people you don't know who aren't really doing anything. You really seem to hate it here, so I'll ask again, what are you even here for?

    No, chill. There's any number of annoying wankers here. Malc is emphatically not one of them. His rages are so pure that they are merely endearing, and the targets of them generally well chosen. Like Miranda Richardson in Blackadder.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Farooq said:

    @malcolmg
    What are you even here for? You hate everybody, and everybody hates you. You repeatedly post content-free screeds and now you've even taken to outsourcing your invective to images. You seem to be single-handedly ensuring the convergence between the capabilities of AI and humans by dragging humanity into the dumbest recesses possible.
    I don't mind the robustness, but when there's no substance you just resemble one of those booze-addled wankers you get on the street shouting at the voices in their head. It's not even really fun winding you up because your reaction is just the same as when people are having sensible conversations.

    You remember the Scousers from the Harry Enfield show, who were always starting fights over absolutely nothing? That's you, except you're just on your own. It's just you, in a room on your own, being unreasonably upset with people you don't know who aren't really doing anything. You really seem to hate it here, so I'll ask again, what are you even here for?

    Seems a little over the top, but I haven't been following this evening's debates.

    Malc is here for the turnips above all else.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    biggles said:

    BigRich said:

    Nigelb said:

    The professionals were as clueless as the rest of us.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1502346783334318085
    "The computer models would have said Russia wins in 72 to 96 hours," said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger. They "cannot explain why Ukraine is still hanging on. Why is that?"

    The same reason that the models of COVID didn't match what happened. The models either had

    - had bad inputs.
    - failed to model some parameters.
    - plain bad algorithms.

    Perhaps it is that fighting head to head, the Ukrainians would have been smashed in a couple of days. That doesn't seem to be what they are doing.

    At least in some places they seem to be manoeuvring and using strategic depth to extend the Russians supply lines. This may just be that the Russians advanced until there supply line became a problem and the Ukrainians gnawed at them all the while, rather than some brilliant Ukrainian plan.
    Saw a YouTube video from some Putin shill saying that the Russians planned to kettle the Ukrainians (and were still on track to do so). So the Russians launched themselves across the border without backup, and the Ukrainians let them do so - defending the border would have been suicidal. Unsurprisingly the Ukrainians know Russian military doctrine, they were taught it too.
    in this context what does 'to kettle' mean, I am not use to kettle being a verb,
    That’s exactly what a Russian agent would ask!!!!

    Found another one.
    BigRich is clearly a non-native English speaker's attempt to describe an oligarch. That Roman Abramovich, he is, how you say, a BigRich?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Keep it off the European continent and you can do what you like, it's very 19th century.
This discussion has been closed.