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The Russian proposals – at least something is on the table – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    edited March 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    rpjs said:

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Personally I am very doubtful that it actually existed, but it could be a top way to troll Putin if Zelenskyy were to say tomorrow to the Commons that after the war he’d consider leasing the area to the UK as a thank you.
    The British did occupy Sevastopol for a short time after the Crimean War ended.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we
    You wrote "we share English with India" above.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    rpjs said:

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Personally I am very doubtful that it actually existed, but it could be a top way to troll Putin if Zelenskyy were to say tomorrow to the Commons that after the war he’d consider leasing the area to the UK as a thank you.
    Yes. Considering it is now home the Russian Black Sea fleet.

    Maybe it’s true, maybe not. We await genetic testing which seems to have developed immensely in recent years.

    Cue @Richard_Tyndall to talk about whether the invading Anglo-Saxons exterminated the existing Celts or whether they just intermarried.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    It's an interesting argument - and I'd agree that it's largely true for first and some second gen immigrants, I'm a dual citizen brought up in the (still very large) London Irish community, but the fate of our two countries is indelibly tied together.
    We don't even share a head of state or the Commonwealth or EU or NATO with the Republic of Ireland now.

    I feel closer to Australians, New Zealanders or Canadians than I do to citizens of the Republic
    We share a land border however. And the English language.
    NI does, thanks to the EU and Dublin GB now has a hard border with Ireland in the Irish Sea.

    39% of the Irish also speak Irish, Australians and New Zealanders do not speak a language distinct from English as well, nor do Canadians outside Quebec
    Fewer than 2% of the population of the Republic of Ireland today speak Irish on a daily basis, and under 10% regularly, outside of the education system.
    In April 2016 1,761,420 people in the Republic claimed that they could speak Irish, representing 39.8 per cent of respondents
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language
    And yet Irish (technically Gaelic, right?) is used exactly nowhere* in Ireland on a day-to-day basis.

    * MAYBE in the Gaelic Department of TCD
    Bit more than that, in Gaeltacht in western Ireland, but not much. Though virtually everyone in the Republic were taught some Irish in school. And of course used in street signs, many common names & etc.

    Am struck by proposed language test for British nationality, esp. one based NOT on use of English, but rather use of some other language.

    Which of course puts Outer Hebrides and North Wales beyond the Pale (pun intended).
    Has no-one else on PB seen the excellent John Michael McDonagh film “The Guard”, with Brendan Gleeson and Don Cheadle?

    Irish dialogue subtitled: “ This is Ireland. Go over to England if you want to speak English.”
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Aslan said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    Of course the Irish shaped Britain. As did a whole bunch of other nationalities. That still doesn't mean they should have a bunch of special privileges when they don't have a loyalty to Britain. I can understand letting them have special rights in Northern Ireland but it makes no sense in mainland GB.
    Perhaps these right exist in the first place, is because successive British governments since 1921 have regarded them as important, at times vital, to British national interest?

    And what interest was/is that? Primarily labor. Men and women who left/leave Ireland to work in Britain, in agriculture, construction, nursing, plenty of other fields. Including British military, such as 70k volunteers from Republic in WW2.



  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Aslan said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    Of course the Irish shaped Britain. As did a whole bunch of other nationalities. That still doesn't mean they should have a bunch of special privileges when they don't have a loyalty to Britain. I can understand letting them have special rights in Northern Ireland but it makes no sense in mainland GB.
    You do know that those privileges are reciprocal for British citizens living in Ireland?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    "It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system"

    The law is that that the Irish are not aliens, and enjoy all the same rights and responsibilities as Brits.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    Does anyone else find anti-Hibernianism a refreshing change from pro-Putinism?

    Right-wing fanatics. Pay them no mind :)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Coz the Irish are taking the fucking piss. They are now, theoretically, the third richest nation on earth. Why do we give them free movement to London and not more talented Brazilians, Bolivians and Bengalis?

    Enough. Fuck off. Be European
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    OK, so for the big six "Anglosphere" countries, it looks like the %-age of first-language English-speakers is as follows:

    Ireland 93.2%
    UK 92.3%
    NZ 85.9%
    USA 78.1%
    Aus 72.7%
    Can 54.4%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    I think that was one of the tidbits mentioned in The Last King English King by Julian Rathbone. A truly wondrous book.
    https://deremilitari.org/2014/06/english-refugees-in-the-byzantine-armed-forces-the-varangian-guard-and-anglo-saxon-ethnic-consciousness/

    "According to the recently discovered Chronicon universale anonymi Laudunensis, a group of English notables immigrated to Byzantium in 235 ships, reaching Constantinople in 1075. Some 4350 of the emigrants and their families remained in Constantinople in imperial service, while a majority of the refugees sailed to a place called Domapia, six days’ journey from Byzantium, conquered it and renamed it Nova Anglia (New England)."

    Also, this bit may be of use to Ukranians needing to cite family links when applying for UK visas:
    "For example, ties between the Kievan Rus’ and England were not unknown. The exiled Gyda, daughter of Harold II Godwinson, married Kievan Prince Vladimir Monomakh..."
    "You do realize, inspector, that my Aunt Gyda has intimate connections in the highest government circles?"

    Maybe they'll assume the reference is to the Prime Minister? Who does have Black Sea ancestry.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    It's an interesting argument - and I'd agree that it's largely true for first and some second gen immigrants, I'm a dual citizen brought up in the (still very large) London Irish community, but the fate of our two countries is indelibly tied together.
    We don't even share a head of state or the Commonwealth or EU or NATO with the Republic of Ireland now.

    I feel closer to Australians, New Zealanders or Canadians than I do to citizens of the Republic
    We share a land border however. And the English language.
    NI does, thanks to the EU and Dublin GB now has a hard border with Ireland in the Irish Sea.

    39% of the Irish also speak Irish, Australians and New Zealanders do not speak a language distinct from English as well, nor do Canadians outside Quebec
    Fewer than 2% of the population of the Republic of Ireland today speak Irish on a daily basis, and under 10% regularly, outside of the education system.
    In April 2016 1,761,420 people in the Republic claimed that they could speak Irish, representing 39.8 per cent of respondents
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language
    And yet Irish (technically Gaelic, right?) is used exactly nowhere* in Ireland on a day-to-day basis.

    * MAYBE in the Gaelic Department of TCD
    That's not true. There are a few small Gaeltacht areas scattered around. From time-to-time there's a bit of a minor scandal when someone from one of these areas wants to apply for a mortgage, and the nearest bank branch (not in the Gaeltacht area) struggles to find an employee who can do it in Irish for them.

    My wife's best friend recently broke up with her fiance because he didn't want to live in one of the Gaeltacht areas. I imagine the attitude to use of English in those areas must be rather hostile, even if only implicitly, because people have generally made a choice to live in an area where they can speak Irish day to day, and so use of English has to be kept out.

    In English, the name for the Irish language is Irish, while in Irish it is Gaeilge, which I think can be badly pronounced as Gaelic. Talking about the Irish language in English as Gaelic would be the equivalent of badly pronouncing "Francais" instead of saying French. But this is a bit confusing because of the desire to use Irish terms in English - eg for example with the use of Taoiseach.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353
    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rpjs said:

    Aslan said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    Of course the Irish shaped Britain. As did a whole bunch of other nationalities. That still doesn't mean they should have a bunch of special privileges when they don't have a loyalty to Britain. I can understand letting them have special rights in Northern Ireland but it makes no sense in mainland GB.
    You do know that those privileges are reciprocal for British citizens living in Ireland?
    Sure, which makes it easier to swallow than Indians and Pakistanis voting here with no reciprocal rights. But it is still unbalanced because net migration is overwhelmingly in one direction. If you want to have a say in British governance, become British. A lot of Irish don't want to do that because they define their identities as being the antithesis of British as described below. Which is fine. But you shouldn't be able to influence British elections in that case.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    rpjs said:

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Personally I am very doubtful that it actually existed, but it could be a top way to troll Putin if Zelenskyy were to say tomorrow to the Commons that after the war he’d consider leasing the area to the UK as a thank you.
    I wouldn't go that far, but if they wanted a location for a military training college, then that would be appropriate, given how well the British training of some of the members of the Ukrainian Armed Forces looks to have gone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
    No one wants to go live in “Ireland”. It is a shit version of Scotland with bits of a Gaelic Liverpool.

    It’s rubbish

    That’s the point. Freedom of movement is tempting if you chuck in the algarve, Provence and the Cyclades. Ireland is basically a toilet. No one wants to go there
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).

    Which is my exact position. I have no problem with the Irish, and I entirely distance myself from HYUFD's mad rantings. I just think running for office, voting and donating to political campaigns should be limited to British citizens.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Coz the Irish are taking the fucking piss. They are now, theoretically, the third richest nation on earth. Why do we give them free movement to London and not more talented Brazilians, Bolivians and Bengalis?

    Enough. Fuck off. Be European
    :
    Wot @rpjs said: "You do know that those privileges are reciprocal for British citizens living in Ireland?"
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    Especially as English-speakers who do NOT speak another language are included in the pseudo-logic behind fake history and bogus future.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).

    It is reciprocal for British citizens resident in Ireland.

    It's because we feel an affinity for them because of our close historical connections. It's a strength. Please don't trash things that are good about Britain.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353
    Our turn for an audience with Zelenskyy tomorrow 🙂

    He’s bringing a gift. Gifts will be exchanged.

    His gift to us is he is still alive. Russia haven’t won, Ukraine not annexed.

    He will ask for a no fly zone. If we are not prepared to give him that (but the numbers who would are growing by the day) we can’t just say no sorry, and be lost for words, what more have we got to announce to help him, tomorrow?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
    No one wants to go live in “Ireland”. It is a shit version of Scotland with bits of a Gaelic Liverpool.

    It’s rubbish

    That’s the point. Freedom of movement is tempting if you chuck in the algarve, Provence and the Cyclades. Ireland is basically a toilet. No one wants to go there
    I have a feeling Flint Knapper weekly won't now be sending you there anytime soon....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I'm so tired of this. I'm in my 20s and my entire adult life has been consumed by bitter old Boomers trying to destroy the world before they die. Just fuck off and let us have a chance for once

    Just count yourself damn lucky you did not have to make the sacrifices your great grandparents and great great grandparents had to make in WW1 and WW2 when they were your age to give you the freedoms you enjoy today.

    You have never had to fight in a war and probably still will not have to even now
    How was WW1 and WW2 for you, HYUFD? Do tell us about your sacrifices. ..
    If I had lived 800 yards further up the road, and as a baby in my mother's arms under a steel table in Greater Manchester, I would have died with my family as Hitler's bomb crashed through the house roof killing the 6 occupants
    Exactly BigG, some young people today don't know how lucky they are!
    Pls don't get me started on generational warfare topics given how screwed we are because of boomers' selfishness.
    Whinge, whinge, whinge, pathetic!
    Putin - Boomer
    Zelenskyy - Gen X

    That's it, I'm picking sides in this one, and I'm not even sorry.
    Putin could end up as the ultimate boomer.




  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rpjs said:

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_(medieval)

    Personally I am very doubtful that it actually existed, but it could be a top way to troll Putin if Zelenskyy were to say tomorrow to the Commons that after the war he’d consider leasing the area to the UK as a thank you.
    Perhaps Crimea could be given to the British as a neutral power between the Ukrainians and the Russians.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).

    It is reciprocal for British citizens resident in Ireland.

    It's because we feel an affinity for them because of our close historical connections. It's a strength. Please don't trash things that are good about Britain.
    There didn't seem to be much affinity when Varadkar was being as arsey as possible over the withdrawal negotiations.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
    No one wants to go live in “Ireland”. It is a shit version of Scotland with bits of a Gaelic Liverpool.

    It’s rubbish

    That’s the point. Freedom of movement is tempting if you chuck in the algarve, Provence and the Cyclades. Ireland is basically a toilet. No one wants to go there
    According to the 2016 Irish Census, 103,000 UK Citizens were living in the Republic.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    OK, so for the big six "Anglosphere" countries, it looks like the %-age of first-language English-speakers is as follows:

    Ireland 93.2%
    UK 92.3%
    NZ 85.9%
    USA 78.1%
    Aus 72.7%
    Can 54.4%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

    They drink more tea per capita too!
  • Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
    No one wants to go live in “Ireland”. It is a shit version of Scotland with bits of a Gaelic Liverpool.

    It’s rubbish

    That’s the point. Freedom of movement is tempting if you chuck in the algarve, Provence and the Cyclades. Ireland is basically a toilet. No one wants to go there
    Wait, where do you "go" if not in a toilet?
    Relatedly, does the guy in the flat below you really, really, really hate you?
    Hands up who done the UK visit to Republic of Ireland must do, kiss the Blarney Stone 💋

    You know it’s a toilet?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,353
    edited March 2022

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    OMG. the Political Party itself come to tonight’s punch up.

    (That Michael Cain, crawling out the pub under the tables trick in Alfie, that’s me that is)

    Night 🙋‍♀️
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Aslan said:

    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).

    It is reciprocal for British citizens resident in Ireland.

    It's because we feel an affinity for them because of our close historical connections. It's a strength. Please don't trash things that are good about Britain.
    There didn't seem to be much affinity when Varadkar was being as arsey as possible over the withdrawal negotiations.
    I refer the reader to Callan's Kicks.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    edited March 2022
    Farooq said:

    It just occurred to me that Sean is an Irish name.

    Reminds me of IRA chief Seán Mac Stíofáin - who was actually an English bloke called John Stephenson!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Mac_Stíofáin
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Until Dublin and the EU remove the Irish Sea border I agree with Leon, we could well end the CTA.

    There is absolutely no reason why the Irish should have priority over migrants we share the Queen and Commonwealth with like Canadians, Australians or New Zealanders or those we share English with like India and the USA or other Europeans now. They can go via the same points system as everyone else.

    A hard border in the Irish Sea leads to inevitable consequences even if they face more difficulty finding work in London
    At the 2011 Indian Census, only 260,000 Indians spoke English as a first language (0.02%).
    We don't have a CTA with India do we, in fact we don't have a CTA with any other nation but the Republic of Ireland.

    It is the only nation exempt now from our points based immigration system despite the hard border in the Irish Sea Dublin and Brussels insisted on and despite the fact the Republic left the UK 100 years ago and got rid of the Queen as Head of State over 75 years ago.

    As Aslan states there might be merit in keeping the CTA with NI but if Dublin wants a hard border with GB no reason its citizens should get free movement with GB still
    *cough*

    Isle of Man
    Guernsey
    Jersey

    *cough*
    We don't have a hard border with them and we share the Queen as Head of State with them, they are Crown dependencies, not fully independent nations
    Yet tomorrow any British citizen can move to Ireland and live and work and buy property there with no restriction. They can’t do that in the Channel Islands or Isle of Man.
    No one wants to go live in “Ireland”. It is a shit version of Scotland with bits of a Gaelic Liverpool.

    It’s rubbish

    That’s the point. Freedom of movement is tempting if you chuck in the algarve, Provence and the Cyclades. Ireland is basically a toilet. No one wants to go there
    Wait, where do you "go" if not in a toilet?
    Relatedly, does the guy in the flat below you really, really, really hate you?

    My neighbours below are a delightful young mixed race couple. I confess I am occasionally disturbed by her gurgling phone calls. She is altogether too happy, blithe, innocent, and loudly cheerful. And a bit sexy

    But then I remember what I must have been like for my older neighbours. 24 hour parties. Monstrous amounts of drugs. Absolute mayhem. And I give thanks for having such civilised and genuinely polite young Londoners as my Camden Co-habitants

    I’ve sarcastically been a bit mean about the younger generation, on this thread, but in reality they seem much nicer if less audacious than my cohort. God bless them
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    Farooq said:

    It just occurred to me that Sean is an Irish name.

    Reminds me of IRA chief Seán Mac Stíofáin - who was actually an English bloke called John Stephenson!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Mac_Stíofáin
    Father of Pádraig (Patrick Henry) Pearse was an Unitarian Englishman from Birmingham.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Exc: Ministers have raised concerns about Ireland’s open-door policy to Ukrainian refugees, arguing it creates UK security risk.

    Dublin joined EU-wide scheme welcoming refugees for 3 years, via which Ukrainians can travel to UK (Common Travel Area) without biometric checks

    Govt source: “Ireland has basically opened the door to everyone in Ukraine, which creates a problem due to the CTA.

    “We've seen before with migrants from Albania that they hv come through Dublin, into Belfast & across to the mainland to L'pool. That's created a drug cartel route

    Source adds: “It's the Home Office that will get the blame if in three or fives’ years time there are problems with those who come. That’s why the security checks have to be done carefully now.”

    Ireland has said it expects to welcome more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1500964937207795713

    We need to end the CTA. Now
    100 years after Irish independence, I do wonder why the Irish still get such privileges in the UK. Even more ridiculous than CTA is Irish voting. I have yet to meet an Irish immigrant to the UK that ever started seeing themselves as British, so they are bad at integrating. And when they vote, they usually do so for the interests of Ireland not the UK.
    What an ignorant post.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000r370
    The Normans, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Huguenots, even the Jews and the Romans and the generations of Britons since, the Victorians, the Georgians etc indeed even the Afro Caribbeans and the immigrants from South Asia did more to create modern Great Britain than the Irish did
    You cannot tell the story of these islands, and thus this island, without the Irish. Big impact on early christianity here too, IIRC. I'm not sure what your problem is with the Irish that you want to cut them out of the tale.
    They had some influence but plenty of other groups had more.

    The issue is the Irish have insisted on a hard border in the Irish Sea yet still demand to be part of a CTA with GB prioritising themselves over other European or Australian, Canadian or New Zealand migrants to the UK who we even still share the Queen with unlike them
    The Irish don't demand any such thing. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it ensures that Irish political independence from the UK doesn't negatively affect the opportunities for people on the neighbouring islands of Britain and Ireland by making it needlessly difficult for us to move between the two islands.

    Why would we want to wreck that?
    Coz the Irish are taking the fucking piss. They are now, theoretically, the third richest nation on earth. Why do we give them free movement to London and not more talented Brazilians, Bolivians and Bengalis?

    Enough. Fuck off. Be European
    Isn't it then an advantage for us to have free movement with the third richest nation on earth?

    Why is it always the case that free movement between the UK and elsewhere is always seen as a burden on the UK, rather than an opportunity?

    I can just about understand the argument with the EU, where most Europeans had some knowledge of English, but few Brits had knowledge of French, or German or Polish, and so there was a language imbalance - but that doesn't apply to the Irish.

    It's pathological to want to cut the country off from the outside world into a smaller and smaller area, all the while insisting that we're an outward-looking global country.
    Ireland isn't really the third richest nation on Earth. That is all accounting gimmicks. Look at median income instead and you will see Ireland is poorer than the UK.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Ireland should have agreed a 'technical solution'; it was clearly the best option for all on these isles. However there's a lot of chucking the baby out with the bathwater, then making sure beyond all doubt the baby is slain going on tonight from certain quarters.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    UK severing free passage with RI, makes as much sense in British national interest, as RI leaving the Commonwealth did in Irish national interest.

    Zero in both cases. Or rather less.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Re: previous palaver re: propriety of "Boris" (onomatologically speaking) on thing that has struck me, is the paucity of the once-frequent "BoJo". Including as used by yours truly.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    UK severing free passage with RI, makes as much sense in British national interest, as RI leaving the Commonwealth did in Irish national interest.
    Zero in both cases. Or rather less.

    Given Ire is a non-aligned nation with no notable defence forces and a land border with us you'd have to be on the Russian payroll, or just plain stupid to advocate loosening links. The UK needs to keep Ireland close to make sure that our national defence is secure.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Chameleon said:

    Ireland should have agreed a 'technical solution'; it was clearly the best option for all on these isles. However there's a lot of chucking the baby out with the bathwater, then making sure beyond all doubt the baby is slain going on tonight from certain quarters.

    Stomp the Baby and Stop the Woke!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Chameleon said:

    UK severing free passage with RI, makes as much sense in British national interest, as RI leaving the Commonwealth did in Irish national interest.
    Zero in both cases. Or rather less.

    Given Ire is a non-aligned nation with no notable defence forces and a land border with us you'd have to be on the Russian payroll, or just plain stupid to advocate loosening links. The UK needs to keep Ireland close to make sure that our national defence is secure.
    True enough. Though does appear that biting off one's nose to spite one's face, is becoming favorite Littlest Englander party trick.

    For the record, I do NOT include in this ending Irish voting rights in UK elections if non-reciprocal, UK has every right to do that. I'm NOT advocating it either, assuming there may be good reasons NOT to disenfranchise existing voters. Though reckon that their continued inclusion all these years has also NOT been exactly apolitical? Seem to recall that for many years Irish voters in UK tended to vote Labour?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    Chameleon said:

    Ireland should have agreed a 'technical solution'; it was clearly the best option for all on these isles. However there's a lot of chucking the baby out with the bathwater, then making sure beyond all doubt the baby is slain going on tonight from certain quarters.

    Pb is normally a fount of knowledge, but on Northern Ireland trade it is sadly ignorant.

    The UK and the EU (Ireland) agreed to implement a "smart border" with a trusted trader programme. The current arrangement - i.e. with a border in the North Sea - is meant to be transitional.

    In the initial post Brexit period, there was a lot of (largely justifiable) concern that the EU was not going to implement the "smart border". This led to the UK government (rightly) throwing their toys out the pram and threatening to invoke Article 16.

    Since then, the EU and the UK have both published their proposals for the border (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf ) and the parties are in the process of reconciliation.

    The government's own report to the Northern Ireland Select Committee ( https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/120/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/) is that progress is being made.

    The timetable is for reconciliation to be agreed by the end of this year, and then for IT services firms to bid on implementation in early 2023. In theory, things are supposed to be live by end 2023, but I suspect that it will end up being delayed somewhat (largely because Accenture and Cap Gemini are shit).

    Nevertheless, Northern Ireland is heading towards what was always envisaged -a proper technical solution.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    rcs1000 said:

    Chameleon said:

    Ireland should have agreed a 'technical solution'; it was clearly the best option for all on these isles. However there's a lot of chucking the baby out with the bathwater, then making sure beyond all doubt the baby is slain going on tonight from certain quarters.

    Pb is normally a fount of knowledge, but on Northern Ireland trade it is sadly ignorant.

    The UK and the EU (Ireland) agreed to implement a "smart border" with a trusted trader programme. The current arrangement - i.e. with a border in the North Sea - is meant to be transitional.

    In the initial post Brexit period, there was a lot of (largely justifiable) concern that the EU was not going to implement the "smart border". This led to the UK government (rightly) throwing their toys out the pram and threatening to invoke Article 16.

    Since then, the EU and the UK have both published their proposals for the border (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf ) and the parties are in the process of reconciliation.

    The government's own report to the Northern Ireland Select Committee ( https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/120/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/) is that progress is being made.

    The timetable is for reconciliation to be agreed by the end of this year, and then for IT services firms to bid on implementation in early 2023. In theory, things are supposed to be live by end 2023, but I suspect that it will end up being delayed somewhat (largely because Accenture and Cap Gemini are shit).

    Nevertheless, Northern Ireland is heading towards what was always envisaged -a proper technical solution….
    … which is a bit shit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Lots of unpleasant stuff on Twitter overnight about civilians being deliberately shot in Ukraine.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited March 2022
    Retired General Sir Chris Deverell says NATO needs to install a No Fly Zone, saying it's not a question of if we begin fighting Putin but when.

    I believe he may be right. If Putin isn't winning I suspect he will try to escalate this anyway. We may be kidding ourselves to think this is containable.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10588295/Its-no-longer-Nato-fight-Putin-says-retired-UK-general.html
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    edited March 2022
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    Is Germany not rather better off than the UK - much more able also to borrow, etc to absorb the pain.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    I'm sure that data is completely correct, but you're kinda missing my point.

    Let's imagine that there were two sources of gas in the world, Russia and the USA.

    And let us imagine that there were two buyers of gas: Germany and the UK.

    At the beginning of the exercise, Germany buys all their gas from Russia, and the UK buys all theirs from the USA.

    One day, Russia falls out of favour and Germany decides to not buy from them again. Big problem for Germany, not for anyone else, right?

    No.

    The reality is that - unless the US is locked in by a long-term supply contract - that it will sell to the highest bidder.

    So, that means that both the UK and Germany want to buy US gas and no-one wants to buy Russian gas.

    The price of gas trebles for Germany and the UK, the US makes out like a bandit, and Russia is fucked.

    In other words, the US will increase the price they sell gas at. They have no obligation to us. It is simply that we were the customer. Only now there are two customers.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    On Ukraine - I missed this 'deal', but my instinct is that 'peace' is only going to be achieved if Russia are completely beaten. Otherwise we will quickly be in the same place again.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited March 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    I'm sure that data is completely correct, but you're kinda missing my point.

    Let's imagine that there were two sources of gas in the world, Russia and the USA.

    And let us imagine that there were two buyers of gas: Germany and the UK.

    At the beginning of the exercise, Germany buys all their gas from Russia, and the UK buys all theirs from the USA.

    One day, Russia falls out of favour and Germany decides to not buy from them again. Big problem for Germany, not for anyone else, right?

    No.

    The reality is that - unless the US is locked in by a long-term supply contract - that it will sell to the highest bidder.

    So, that means that both the UK and Germany want to buy US gas and no-one wants to buy Russian gas.

    The price of gas trebles for Germany and the UK, the US makes out like a bandit, and Russia is fucked.

    In other words, the US will increase the price they sell gas at. They have no obligation to us. It is simply that we were the customer. Only now there are two customers.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I agree with your point, and was just adding some context.

    One thing I don't know is whether DE actually has any capacity to pivot away from Russian gas, given the absence of LNG import terminals there.

    How extensive and below capacity is the cross border gas grid within mainland Europe?

    Is there capacity to increase imports and transfer to DE via pipelines?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    I think that was one of the tidbits mentioned in The Last King English King by Julian Rathbone. A truly wondrous book.
    https://deremilitari.org/2014/06/english-refugees-in-the-byzantine-armed-forces-the-varangian-guard-and-anglo-saxon-ethnic-consciousness/

    "According to the recently discovered Chronicon universale anonymi Laudunensis, a group of English notables immigrated to Byzantium in 235 ships, reaching Constantinople in 1075. Some 4350 of the emigrants and their families remained in Constantinople in imperial service, while a majority of the refugees sailed to a place called Domapia, six days’ journey from Byzantium, conquered it and renamed it Nova Anglia (New England)."

    Also, this bit may be of use to Ukranians needing to cite family links when applying for UK visas:
    "For example, ties between the Kievan Rus’ and England were not unknown. The exiled Gyda, daughter of Harold II Godwinson, married Kievan Prince Vladimir Monomakh..."
    Its quite striking how people moved around a lot, and often vast distances in olden times, intermarrying and living new lives. The good old days?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    I'm sure that data is completely correct, but you're kinda missing my point.

    Let's imagine that there were two sources of gas in the world, Russia and the USA.

    And let us imagine that there were two buyers of gas: Germany and the UK.

    At the beginning of the exercise, Germany buys all their gas from Russia, and the UK buys all theirs from the USA.

    One day, Russia falls out of favour and Germany decides to not buy from them again. Big problem for Germany, not for anyone else, right?

    No.

    The reality is that - unless the US is locked in by a long-term supply contract - that it will sell to the highest bidder.

    So, that means that both the UK and Germany want to buy US gas and no-one wants to buy Russian gas.

    The price of gas trebles for Germany and the UK, the US makes out like a bandit, and Russia is fucked.

    In other words, the US will increase the price they sell gas at. They have no obligation to us. It is simply that we were the customer. Only now there are two customers.
    Gas seems cheap as chips in the USA, and costs a fortune in Europe now
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    I'm sure that data is completely correct, but you're kinda missing my point.

    Let's imagine that there were two sources of gas in the world, Russia and the USA.

    And let us imagine that there were two buyers of gas: Germany and the UK.

    At the beginning of the exercise, Germany buys all their gas from Russia, and the UK buys all theirs from the USA.

    One day, Russia falls out of favour and Germany decides to not buy from them again. Big problem for Germany, not for anyone else, right?

    No.

    The reality is that - unless the US is locked in by a long-term supply contract - that it will sell to the highest bidder.

    So, that means that both the UK and Germany want to buy US gas and no-one wants to buy Russian gas.

    The price of gas trebles for Germany and the UK, the US makes out like a bandit, and Russia is fucked.

    In other words, the US will increase the price they sell gas at. They have no obligation to us. It is simply that we were the customer. Only now there are two customers.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I agree with your point, and was just adding some context.

    One thing I don't know is whether DE actually has any capacity to pivot away from Russian gas, given the absence of LNG import terminals there.

    How extensive and below capacity is the cross border gas grid within mainland Europe?

    Is there capacity to increase imports and transfer to DE via pipelines?
    Well, there is more availability for oil, as that is 90% shipped rather than piped.

    But don't forget than European gas transit is pretty cheap. If you land LNG at Spain's Bilbao LNG import terminal at $12.20/mmbtu, you'll probably pay $0.40 to get it piped to Hannover.

    So, yes, Germany is disadvantaged by not having its own import terminals. But RWE can buy gas from import into Spain or Italy and then pay a (fairly modest) transit fee.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    felix said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    Is Germany not rather better off than the UK - much more able also to borrow, etc to absorb the pain.
    Both Germany and the UK (governments) can borrow at pretty low rates.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Foxy said:

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    I think that was one of the tidbits mentioned in The Last King English King by Julian Rathbone. A truly wondrous book.
    https://deremilitari.org/2014/06/english-refugees-in-the-byzantine-armed-forces-the-varangian-guard-and-anglo-saxon-ethnic-consciousness/

    "According to the recently discovered Chronicon universale anonymi Laudunensis, a group of English notables immigrated to Byzantium in 235 ships, reaching Constantinople in 1075. Some 4350 of the emigrants and their families remained in Constantinople in imperial service, while a majority of the refugees sailed to a place called Domapia, six days’ journey from Byzantium, conquered it and renamed it Nova Anglia (New England)."

    Also, this bit may be of use to Ukranians needing to cite family links when applying for UK visas:
    "For example, ties between the Kievan Rus’ and England were not unknown. The exiled Gyda, daughter of Harold II Godwinson, married Kievan Prince Vladimir Monomakh..."
    Its quite striking how people moved around a lot, and often vast distances in olden times, intermarrying and living new lives. The good old days?
    It's amazing how far the Vikings roamed eastwards.

    Then there's the gold coin of Mercian king Offa, which has Arabic inscriptions:
    https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/gold-dinar-of-king-offa

    King Offa, by the way, is an archetypal case of plans going awry. He allegedly killed off every rival who might have a claim to power when he died, so his son Ecgfrith would inherit the kingdom. Ecgfrith did inherit. Only to die a few months later.

    As someone in Charlemagne's court said:
    "That most noble young man has not died for his sins, but the vengeance for the blood shed by the father has reached the son. For you know how much blood his father shed to secure the kingdom upon his son."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274
    Heathener said:

    Retired General Sir Chris Deverell says NATO needs to install a No Fly Zone, saying it's not a question of if we begin fighting Putin but when.

    I believe he may be right. If Putin isn't winning I suspect he will try to escalate this anyway. We may be kidding ourselves to think this is containable.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10588295/Its-no-longer-Nato-fight-Putin-says-retired-UK-general.html

    In which case it is World War 3.

    Absolutely not unless Putin goes beyond Ukraine to invade a NATO state
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    A day of reckoning for Mark Cavendish today. He’s looked poor so far this season. Age has taken its toll?

    I could list 10 sprinters that look tastier so far this season (early days yet mind). Jakobsen, who easily whacked Van Aert yesterday, looks invincible. Luckily for Cavendish he’s only up against Ewan and Merlier this afternoon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, were they not fleeing Norman dominion over England?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274

    HYUFD said:

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
    Inconveniently for you it was Boris Johnson who signed the agreement putting the border in the Irish Sea.

    You really have posted a lot of bigoted, ignorant rubbish on here tonight.

    It was the EU who demanded the hard border in the Irish Sea for a trade deal not the UK
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    edited March 2022

    The UK is immensely richer for its Irish heritage. I really struggle to understand this smaller and smaller conception of England.

    It seems strange that Irish can vote though. Commonwealth citizens too. I’ve no idea why this is maintained, it isn’t reciprocal (and still wouldn’t make sense if it was).

    Its maintained as it does no harm so there's no need to remove it, even though its not a common arrangement. Traditionalists should be in favour as a result.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
    Inconveniently for you it was Boris Johnson who signed the agreement putting the border in the Irish Sea.

    You really have posted a lot of bigoted, ignorant rubbish on here tonight.

    It was the EU who demanded the hard border in the Irish Sea for a trade deal not the UK
    The "hard border" (which is no such thing) exists only until the TTP and SmartBorder are implemented.

    If the EU reneges on the plans for this (which they themselves published), we would be morally and legally justified in triggering Article 16.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274
    Chameleon said:

    UK severing free passage with RI, makes as much sense in British national interest, as RI leaving the Commonwealth did in Irish national interest.
    Zero in both cases. Or rather less.

    Given Ire is a non-aligned nation with no notable defence forces and a land border with us you'd have to be on the Russian payroll, or just plain stupid to advocate loosening links. The UK needs to keep Ireland close to make sure that our national defence is secure.
    If anything the CTA increases the security risk to GB then.

    The Republic of Ireland increasing defence spending and joining NATO would do far more to protect our national security re Russia than the CTA does
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Good morning, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, were they not fleeing Norman dominion over England?

    Refugees, fleeing war and persecution, travelling by boat and not stopping in the first safe country? 🤔
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited March 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
    Inconveniently for you it was Boris Johnson who signed the agreement putting the border in the Irish Sea.

    You really have posted a lot of bigoted, ignorant rubbish on here tonight.

    It was the EU who demanded the hard border in the Irish Sea for a trade deal not the UK
    Because we didn't want a trade deal (due to the freedom of movement requirements) the EU required a border - with May’s deal the border was between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    Bozo moved it
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited March 2022
    Good morning everyone.

    I see our young friend from SW Essex has taken against the Irish now. A people abused by the Anglo Norman aristocracy for centuries and mocked by the Saxons as a consequence.
    That they are prepared to be friendly to us is remarkable, and a tribute to their generosity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Maybe a downer this post, unless you have some cheery answers

    *oil, gas, Big Macs

    The UK appear to be announcing all sorts of plans for extra drilling of North sea for Gas and Oil tonight. It seems the markets were spooked today by the push, largely from US, to stop paying Putin for Gas and Oil. Which does make sense, why punish breadline Russians when at same time we are pouring money into the Kremlin?

    With the EU saying to UK, hurry up and pillage your Oligarchs, US saying to EU, our consumers are happy to be Russian free on energy use hurry up and do the same - it’s obvious not everyone is exposed in the same way. Whilst we are cancelling the Russian peoples access to Premiership football and shaming McDonalds for still trading there, European governments still handing Putin’s government the money to stay afloat and fund his war. When can we turn off our supply of good money straight into Putin’s regime?

    If McDonalds shut, that’s some low paid people who don’t have much say in sane government in Kremlin out of a job. Are we now just picking low hanging fruit to make ourselves feel better? The right way to do this sanctioning is target the evil regime, not the poor everyday Russian people who we actually want on our side?

    How soon can EU and UK be less dependent on paying Putin, without ravaged by supply and price issues?
    I fear the answer is much more than weeks isn’t it?

    The UK is not dependent on paying Putin, as less than 5% of our gas comes from Russia.

    Plus there seems to be some scope for increasing our own production:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/government-should-loosen-gas-rules-amid-price-spike-north-sea-firm-says-b1924229.html

    And our oil imports from Russia are only about 10%. Though oil is more complex, as it is a more categorised product.

    The main issue for us is linkage of prices we pay to world prices.

    There's a good thread from the Bus and Energy Secretary here:
    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1498197281144725505

    Oil is fungible.

    If Germany or Italy stops buys Russian oil, then they compete with us for Mexican or Saudi Arabian oil.

    We both get hit equally.

    Gas is more complex, but there we are incredibly dependent on spot LNG cargoes. If we're competing with Germany for them... well, we'll both be hit equally.
    Hmmm. Two points to add:

    1 - Germany has declared that they aren't stopping buying Russian energy
    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/

    2 - You need to take account of relative amounts of imports to identify potential "hurt".

    2020 Imports of Oil by Germany: 610 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Oil by UK: 330 million barrels
    2020 Imports of Gas by Germany: 155 million cubic m
    2020 Imports of Gas by UK: 44 million cubic m

    The overall problem here is much smaller than in Germany. Not helped by their larger manufacturing base.

    (Note: obvs both affected by Corona as 2020 figures, but that does not change the point.)

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/natural-gas-imports
    https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/germany/natural-gas-imports
    I'm sure that data is completely correct, but you're kinda missing my point.

    Let's imagine that there were two sources of gas in the world, Russia and the USA.

    And let us imagine that there were two buyers of gas: Germany and the UK.

    At the beginning of the exercise, Germany buys all their gas from Russia, and the UK buys all theirs from the USA.

    One day, Russia falls out of favour and Germany decides to not buy from them again. Big problem for Germany, not for anyone else, right?

    No.

    The reality is that - unless the US is locked in by a long-term supply contract - that it will sell to the highest bidder.

    So, that means that both the UK and Germany want to buy US gas and no-one wants to buy Russian gas.

    The price of gas trebles for Germany and the UK, the US makes out like a bandit, and Russia is fucked.

    In other words, the US will increase the price they sell gas at. They have no obligation to us. It is simply that we were the customer. Only now there are two customers.
    Not so easy to redirect the Norwegian pipelines, though ? And there are contracts in place.
    You're largely correct, but it's not quite that simple.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited March 2022
    rcs1000 said:



    Ultimately, the Germans have four options:

    (1) Buy the F35
    (2) Buy the Saab Grippen
    (3) Fuck around attempting to make the Eurofughter Typhoon into something it isn't and waste billions
    (4) Do nothing

    My view - fwiw - is that option (2) is probably the best, quickest and most cost efficient route forward. And while it wouldn't create true fifth gen fighter, the reality is that a decent fourth gen one - that doesn't suffer from a long list of defects and low uptime - would serve Germany very well.

    The GAF have two requirements:

    1. Replace the Buchel wing Tornado IDS with a platform cleared for B61 carriage and release under NATO's nuclear weapon sharing program.

    2. Replace the Schleswig wing Tornado ECR with a DEAD/SEAD capable platform.

    Gripen can fulfill neither of these missions.

    At one point last year the thinking was F/A-18E for the B61 mission and EA-18G for the ECR/SEAD mission. This actually makes quite a lot of sense as its a common platform and they get all of the USN economies of scale.

    Now the situation has developed since AKK left office and the favoured plan appears to be F-35A for Buchel and a new ECR version of Typhoon which only exists in PowerPoint form for Schleswig. They also have the 'Quadriga' Typhoon program going on which replaces 38 x Tranche 1 jets with the latest spec. in a job creation scheme that, much like Gripen, satisfies neither Requirement 1 nor Requirement 2.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the obscure suggestion that a colony of Varangian English settled on the shore of the Black Sea after the Norman Invasion.

    Something like that. I can’t find it on Google, but it’s definitely a thing.

    Perhaps we could have that bit.

    Medieval New England.

    Fascinating.
    Or Kaliningrad could be the new Calais
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Only one email in my spam folder overnight; remarkable.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    On the CTA we should just do what the Irish do to arrivals from Britain - demand documentary proof that you are entitled to travel without documentary proof. Between NI & U.K. the Ferry & Airline operators can police it (they require photo id anyway). Problem solved.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    Good morning everyone.

    I see our young friend from SW Essex has taken against the Irish now. A people abused by the Anglo Norman aristocracy for centuries and mocked by the Saxons as a consequence.
    That they are prepared to be friendly to us is remarkable, and a tribute to their generosity.

    Is it remarkable? I don't hold anything against the Germans, for example.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708
    darkage said:

    On Ukraine - I missed this 'deal', but my instinct is that 'peace' is only going to be achieved if Russia are completely beaten. Otherwise we will quickly be in the same place again.

    There's going to be a deal with Ukraine and a deal with the west. It is imperative that we do not remove sanctions until there is a commitment to remove all Russian military from near to the Ukraine border. I actually wonder if peacekeepers are necessary. We can tell what they are doing by satellite. This could give Ukraine security without having to join Nato.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    I see Patel misled the Commons about the existence of a visa application centre at Calais - until obliged to correct herself by Yvette Cooper. And even then insisted that the latter had 'misheard'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Nigelb said:

    I see Patel misled the Commons about the existence of a visa application centre at Calais - until obliged to correct herself by Yvette Cooper. And even then insisted that the latter had 'misheard'.

    A member of this government misled the House?

    I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    kle4 said:

    A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

    If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
    If you are in NATO we probably won't.
    Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

    8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.
    I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round
    I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.
    So Scotland isn't a free country?
    Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
    Inconveniently for you it was Boris Johnson who signed the agreement putting the border in the Irish Sea.

    You really have posted a lot of bigoted, ignorant rubbish on here tonight.

    It was the EU who demanded the hard border in the Irish Sea for a trade deal not the UK
    Because we didn't want a trade deal (due to the freedom of movement requirements) the EU required a border - with May’s deal the border was between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    Bozo moved it
    To be fair to BoJo, putting a techno border on the land border was bound to be infinitely harder than putting it at the sea and air ports. Putting the formalities at places where journeys paused anyway was always the sensible point. A transition that was exited when the land border was fixed would have gone on for a very long time.

    But this isn't really about the inconvenience of goods travel across the Irish Sea, is it? It's about the symbolism, like most of you-know-what. That doesn't mean stupid; symbols are important. But problems with symbols rarely respond well to a technical fix.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

    If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
    If you are in NATO we probably won't.
    Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

    8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.
    I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round
    I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.
    So Scotland isn't a free country?
    Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.
    Cue jokes about it not being free because the Scots charge for everything....

    (And don't forget, the 1st Epping Foresters are willing to supply the bombs if you feel the parallel needs improving.)
  • So after yesterday's faux outrage from certain posters at my "forrin" skit on embedded racism, we have a long multi-post diatribe against the Irish followed by a pile on telling them to "fuck off".

    Perhaps, demonstrably, we have a fear of the forrin after all...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited March 2022
    tlg86 said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see our young friend from SW Essex has taken against the Irish now. A people abused by the Anglo Norman aristocracy for centuries and mocked by the Saxons as a consequence.
    That they are prepared to be friendly to us is remarkable, and a tribute to their generosity.

    Is it remarkable? I don't hold anything against the Germans, for example.
    The conglomerate nation which is the UK has only been in an 'unfriendly' situation with the Germans for about 70 years. Before then there were much more friendly; even got several kings and royal consorts from what is now Germany. And Wellington would have been in deep trouble at Waterloo had Blucher and the (mainly) Prussian army not arrived.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274
    edited March 2022

    Good morning everyone.

    I see our young friend from SW Essex has taken against the Irish now. A people abused by the Anglo Norman aristocracy for centuries and mocked by the Saxons as a consequence.
    That they are prepared to be friendly to us is remarkable, and a tribute to their generosity.

    It was actually Leon who first suggested removing the CTA last night.

    Until the Irish Sea border is removed I merely agreed given the Republic of Ireland is the only foreign nation whose migrants to the UK can avoid our points based immigration system, yet is also not even in the Commonwealth either now or shares the Queen as head of state unlike say Australia, Canada and New Zealand who all face the same points based immigration system for migrants as everyone else except Ireland.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

    If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
    If you are in NATO we probably won't.
    Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

    8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.
    I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round
    I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.
    So Scotland isn't a free country?
    Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.
    Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.
  • ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I see Patel misled the Commons about the existence of a visa application centre at Calais - until obliged to correct herself by Yvette Cooper. And even then insisted that the latter had 'misheard'.

    A member of this government misled the House?

    I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
    Lets not tiptoe round the language. Patel Lied.

    This is demonstrably why BigG was unwise to be ignoring all the evidence and relying on "but Patel said". Patel is a liar. Lied to the house on this very subject only yesterday. You cannot take anything said by most UK ministers as truth because of the sheer number of prima facie lies they tell.

    Its a disgrace that things are like this - and that people who should know better provide liars with succour - but we are where we are.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    See we can't be arsed to set up a visa office in Calais. I'm sure @NerysHughes will be here shortly to justify it. British citizen rescues his Ukrainian wife and children then struggles to get over that last strip of water between Calais and Dover. Embarrassing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Oireland and the EU insisted on the hard border did they?

    Bloody EU - we vote to leave, and then there's a border with the thing we voted not to be part of...

    We could have used a technical solution as we proposed. The Irish demanded a hard border in the Irish Sea with Brussels.

    Well if that in turn means no CTA until it is removed so be it.

    The Republic of Ireland chose to leave the UK and chose to remove the Queen as Head of State and now chose to impose a hard border in the Irish Sea.

    If that means Irish migrants face the same points system as every other nations' migrants then so be it
    Inconveniently for you it was Boris Johnson who signed the agreement putting the border in the Irish Sea.

    You really have posted a lot of bigoted, ignorant rubbish on here tonight.

    It was the EU who demanded the hard border in the Irish Sea for a trade deal not the UK
    Because we didn't want a trade deal (due to the freedom of movement requirements) the EU required a border - with May’s deal the border was between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    Bozo moved it
    To be fair to BoJo, putting a techno border on the land border was bound to be infinitely harder than putting it at the sea and air ports. Putting the formalities at places where journeys paused anyway was always the sensible point. A transition that was exited when the land border was fixed would have gone on for a very long time.

    But this isn't really about the inconvenience of goods travel across the Irish Sea, is it? It's about the symbolism, like most of you-know-what. That doesn't mean stupid; symbols are important. But problems with symbols rarely respond well to a technical fix.
    IIRC he intimated that a land-based techno solution was easy.
  • HYUFD said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see our young friend from SW Essex has taken against the Irish now. A people abused by the Anglo Norman aristocracy for centuries and mocked by the Saxons as a consequence.
    That they are prepared to be friendly to us is remarkable, and a tribute to their generosity.

    It was actually Leon who first suggested removing the CTA last night.

    Until the Irish Sea is removed I merely agreed given the Republic of Ireland is the only foreign nation whose migrants to the UK can avoid our points based immigration system, yet is also not even in the Commonwealth either now or shares the Queen as head of state unlike say Australia, Canada and New Zealand who all face the same points based immigration system for migrants as everyone else except Ireland
    Outrageous concept as it is to a man of your morality, but we have a long-standing legal agreement with Ireland. A debt of honour between our nations. Made at a time when an Englishman's word was his Bond.
    Unlike now with you lot.
This discussion has been closed.