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The PB 18th Birthday Celebration – March 2nd – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,714
edited February 2022 in General
imageThe PB 18th Birthday Celebration – March 2nd – politicalbetting.com

The event will be held at the offices of Smarkets at Katherine Docks close to the Tower of London, from 6 30pm to 9.pm. The address is 1 Commodity Quay, St Katharine Docks, London E1W 1AZ. Phone 020 7617 7413. These are nice offices overlooking the Dock.

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  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    First - through the door on the night possibly!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,213
    Second! Looking forward to it.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    @MikeSmithson Did you manage to confirm access is ok Mike?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,886
    Midweek Wednesday impossible for me. Take care of your livers!
  • Options

    @MikeSmithson Did you manage to confirm access is ok Mike?

    I have asked and I will let you know. My guess is that this is a modern building and will be.
  • Options
    Which boat is the party on?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    @MikeSmithson Did you manage to confirm access is ok Mike?

    I have asked and I will let you know. My guess is that this is a modern building and will be.
    Thanks Mike, much appreciated. I have emailed to say I'd like to attend. Looking forward to it.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Which boat is the party on?

    When you see the SS Smithson in the harbour you'll know. Mainly I guess because that's where all our (!) top-commentator helicoptors will land anyway. Apparently just 5 at a time.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,379
    Can't make it, sadly - a friend's husband's funeral.
  • Options

    @MikeSmithson Did you manage to confirm access is ok Mike?

    I have asked and I will let you know. My guess is that this is a modern building and will be.
    Thanks Mike, much appreciated. I have emailed to say I'd like to attend. Looking forward to it.
    Shadsy has messaged me to say there is no problem. I am also partially disabled
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,086
    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
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    I'll be there in my best feather boa.

    Anyone know if that old scallywag JackW will be dropping in, or does Matron still keep him under lock and key?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    @MikeSmithson Did you manage to confirm access is ok Mike?

    I have asked and I will let you know. My guess is that this is a modern building and will be.
    Thanks Mike, much appreciated. I have emailed to say I'd like to attend. Looking forward to it.
    Shadsy has messaged me to say there is no problem. I am also partially disabled
    Excellent news! (The access not your personal circumstances obvs! 😳)

    I look forward to meeting you and other PBers.
  • Options
    I shall not be attending. I nearly managed to get to the Manchester event quite some years back (2016???) but alas....
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    FPT re laptops

    Back briefly to laptops. With thanks to the various contributions the other day have decided we're going to buy Microsoft Surface devices. A choice of laptops and convertables should do the job.

    Fwiw I know someone who has just sent a Surface back in favour of Apple's finest. To add to the criteria we discussed the other day, check the camera is at the top of the screen for Zoom calls, or you'll look a right twerp, or better still get an external camera. Also check the keyboard if you use a software package with special keys.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,886
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    It really does seem that in order to be caught and convicted, someone has to be particularly stupid. Fortunately most crooks seem to be.
  • Options
    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,086
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    It really does seem that in order to be caught and convicted, someone has to be particularly stupid. Fortunately most crooks seem to be.
    Yet even them being stupid isn't enough if the authorities are ineffective or resource starved (not all areas suffer both those issues)
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,393

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    ITV are more skeptical.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    edited February 2022

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what sense is it working?
    Granted, the conversation changes, but the polling ain’t budging.

    Moreover, not a day goes by now without some government minister effectively pissing on your leg and telling you it’s raining, and the media is not really going along with it anymore.

    Like Kwarteng, “fraud doesn’t matter”.
    Or Elphicke, “queues are Brussels’s fault”
    Or Spencer, “people don’t care about Boris’s partying in the real world”

    Labour is pretty much guaranteed to win the next election.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,179
    A sprightly young 18! My granddaughter is a week older than PB.
    Sorry to miss it, but have fun and go easy on the peanuts.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,202

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,688
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    It really does seem that in order to be caught and convicted, someone has to be particularly stupid. Fortunately most crooks seem to be.
    I have always thought that to be the case.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    It really does seem that in order to be caught and convicted, someone has to be particularly stupid. Fortunately most crooks seem to be.
    The clever ones do not get caught and are therefore never classified as crooks ;)
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,422

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    New York is dropping its mask mandate on Thursday, although school pupils are still expected to wear them until at least end of February.

    It’s now up to individual shops and restaurants to enforce; will be interesting to see how they respond.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,886

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,422
    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
    Yep. Any decent sensible government will support people doing the right thing. Oh.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,886

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    It depends whether they can afford to isolate. A lot of poorer people won't if they get no money to permit it.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,877

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it a dead cat? Savile was a (very successful, in the long term, sadly) dead cat. This is just a distraction tactic, which is subtly different. Good news stories are not dead cats.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,422
    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    It depends whether they can afford to isolate. A lot of poorer people won't if they get no money to permit it.
    Yes, totally agree with you on this.
    I am however heartened that with ons figures of 1 in 19 people in England testing positive the admissions to hospital are falling, and gradually the hospital pressure is easing. Hopeful for a better spring summer for you guys.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,877
    OT I may turn up. It’s fairly local. Hope to see my fellow middle aged SE resident only living boy there.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,877
    Was at a dinner at Palace of Westminster this evening. Eerily quiet as they’ve just gone on recess.

    Remarkably it was, apparently, the first time they’ve held face to face dinners in the dining rooms since the pandemic started. I’d assumed - especially given the Downing St parties - that Westminster had been quite quick to open up.

    No discussion of Boris despite a minister and 2 MPs being present. It was like the taboo that dare not speak its name.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,877

    New York is dropping its mask mandate on Thursday, although school pupils are still expected to wear them until at least end of February.

    It’s now up to individual shops and restaurants to enforce; will be interesting to see how they respond.

    With hearty partisan zeal I expect.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,399

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    ITV are more skeptical.
    Ch4 news just came out and said the motive was distraction. Talk about telling it like it is. Can't have that. They'll be privatized if they're not careful.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    I am amazed that no-one has yet pointed out that the title should be changed to "PB Work Event - March 2nd", so can I be the first, please?
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,924
    edited February 2022

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    I'm not sure it's desperate but I am far from convinced it's being done for the right reasons.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    Cyclefree said:

    This is very interesting.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/09/met-police-considering-whether-investigate-pm-boris-johnson-downing-street-flat-refurb

    And very suitable under a Cyclefree header. Is right place for cash for access under bribery?

    I have no wish to be banned - or say anything sub judicial, are we allowed to speculate the money for the flat and then the Dowden meeting looks like a case of straight forward corruption? Are we allowed to post, in my opinion it looks like a case of cash getting access?

    Corruption and bribery are quite hard to prove. Let alone by the Met which admitted last year that it did not have a working definition of corruption for its own use.

    Breaches of various Parliamentary standards and codes would be easier, assuming we can find another brave civil servant not under investigation themselves to look at it.
    Thank you for the reply.

    The obvious person to investigate this as cash for access I think would be Kathryn Stone. But Labour, in their infinite lawyerly wisdom seem to be pushing the Met route first. 🤔
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
    To be honest, he may well completely backtrack when recess ends. It was just something, anything, to say to try and get through another day without 54 letters.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    TimS said:

    New York is dropping its mask mandate on Thursday, although school pupils are still expected to wear them until at least end of February.

    It’s now up to individual shops and restaurants to enforce; will be interesting to see how they respond.

    With hearty partisan zeal I expect.
    That’s my expectation.

    Although even before this I found a few coffee shops where they don’t seem to care. Which is reassuring.
  • Options
    QTWTAIN?



  • Options
    Looking forward to this. It's always great having a chance to meet PBers, even or perhaps especially if you've been rude to them online.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,086

    Looking forward to this. It's always great having a chance to meet PBers, even or perhaps especially if you've been rude to them online.

    Indeed? Well in that case, screw you Nabavi!
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    kinabalu said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    ITV are more skeptical.
    Ch4 news just came out and said the motive was distraction. Talk about telling it like it is. Can't have that. They'll be privatized if they're not careful.
    I actually think Boris is right. We should go about as though Covid never happened under Omicron. Boris was wrong to bring in the measures he did over Christmas. I didn’t say that at the time, I’m saying it now with my Captain Hindsight glasses on. But the libdems didn’t join Tory’s and Labour pushing through those measures.

    This is the second and likely last freedom day announced by Boris. But can we rule out the next Covid mutant not being as kittenish as Omicron?
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,134
    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
    Statutory sick pay is crap, and AIUI the only additional grants made specifically in respect of Covid are the payments to poorer workers who are asked to isolate by Test and Trace. Presumably those will stop when the legal requirement to isolate stops or, at the very latest, when Test and Trace is wound up, which it will be sooner rather than later?

    There's no prospect of SSP being made more generous (after all, it goes to workers not pensioners,) so I fully expect that we'll return to the status quo ante-2020, in which ill people drag themselves to work because they can't afford to fall back on SSP and/or their employers are crap. And when it comes to sickness absence there are an awful lot of bad employers: quite apart from the mercenary scalper bosses, there are also many otherwise not so bad firms that have Draconian policies on sick leave, that basically place anybody who doesn't turn up to work on exactly 100% of the days on which they are expected under suspicion of skiving.

    For good or ill, the Government is obviously now relying entirely on population immunity (whether acquired through infection, vaccination or both) to keep serious Covid illness down to manageable levels.
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    Apologies if this has already been covered, but are the 'questionnaires' that the Met is sending out addressed to witnesses, or suspects, or both? If potentially to suspects, are they under caution?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,179
     
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
    Statutory sick pay is crap, and AIUI the only additional grants made specifically in respect of Covid are the payments to poorer workers who are asked to isolate by Test and Trace. Presumably those will stop when the legal requirement to isolate stops or, at the very latest, when Test and Trace is wound up, which it will be sooner rather than later?

    There's no prospect of SSP being made more generous (after all, it goes to workers not pensioners,) so I fully expect that we'll return to the status quo ante-2020, in which ill people drag themselves to work because they can't afford to fall back on SSP and/or their employers are crap. And when it comes to sickness absence there are an awful lot of bad employers: quite apart from the mercenary scalper bosses, there are also many otherwise not so bad firms that have Draconian policies on sick leave, that basically place anybody who doesn't turn up to work on exactly 100% of the days on which they are expected under suspicion of skiving.

    For good or ill, the Government is obviously now relying entirely on population immunity (whether acquired through infection, vaccination or both) to keep serious Covid illness down to manageable levels.
    Well yes, that is how the pandemic ends: herd immunity.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to this. It's always great having a chance to meet PBers, even or perhaps especially if you've been rude to them online.

    Indeed? Well in that case, screw you Nabavi!
    That’s the spirit. If his hairs as long as in his photo, there better not be anything living in it. 🪳
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    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to this. It's always great having a chance to meet PBers, even or perhaps especially if you've been rude to them online.

    Indeed? Well in that case, screw you Nabavi!
    That’s the spirit. If his hairs as long as in his photo, there better not be anything living in it. 🪳
    You really don't want to see the wig removed...
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    I don't know whether anyone has ever flagged this before:
    https://longbets.org/

    Look at bet 9. Not settled yet!
  • Options

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    It sounds spot-on to me
  • Options

    QTWTAIN?



    Has anyone ever seen Sunak from that angle?
    To butcher Oscar Wilde;

    We are all lying in the gutter but some of us are looking up Rishi Sunak's left nostril.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,242
    edited February 2022

    Apologies if this has already been covered, but are the 'questionnaires' that the Met is sending out addressed to witnesses, or suspects, or both? If potentially to suspects, are they under caution?

    The questionnaires are an absolute joke.

    As per my FPT comment:

    A short interview with relevant evidence for each interviewee in a file to be referred to as needed is the minimum I would expect.

    I'm beginning to think, you know, that the police are a bit rubbish at their job.

    Anyway ....

    I plan to be at this shindig.

    I do hope we get some sort of surprise guest bursting out of a cake - Carrie, perhaps.

    Edited: Or @Leon!
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited February 2022
    Farooq said:

    I don't know whether anyone has ever flagged this before:
    https://longbets.org/

    Look at bet 9. Not settled yet!

    If you are really thinking long term, look at No 11

    https://longbets.org/11/

    No. 704 is looking fairly safe as well ;)
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,131

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    Some time ago I spoke to one of the 21 who lost the whip. He said he would have done the same if he had been Pm - the 21 had defied the government and left them with no choice
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,529
    1) Having complained for 2 years that the government have been over-cautious and over-prescriptive, introducing laws where no laws should ever be introduced, I can hardly not issue a cheer when they propose to remove the rules.
    Would I isolate if I had covid? Absolutely. Should this be mandated by law? Absolutely not.
    There's a general principle here that we should be very hesitant to change 'should' to 'must'.
    It is very, very hard to get rid of laws, so I am very pleased to see this being done, even if I'd also argue these laws should never have been introduced in the first place.
    Now for the rest of the world to follow suit (not Denmark, of course - all credit to them for getting there first).

    2) I once had a girlfriend who lived near St. Katherine's Dock. Good news - she is no longer my girlfriend: she is now my wife. Bad news: since she now lives in the same house as me in suburban Manchester, rather than near St. Katherine's Dock, no obvious opportunities for a trip to the pb.c party. I hope it is tremendous fun and I hope to make it to one one day.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    It really does seem that in order to be caught and convicted, someone has to be particularly stupid. Fortunately most crooks seem to be.
    The clever ones do not get caught and are therefore never classified as crooks ;)
    The really crafty ones become pm and it doesn’t matter a feck if they’re caught.
  • Options

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,064
    geoffw said:

     

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    I think that we have to wait for the detail. A lot depends on whether payments/sick pay etc are to continue. If those go, then a lot of front line workers will go to work even if symptomatic.
    Statutory sick pay is crap, and AIUI the only additional grants made specifically in respect of Covid are the payments to poorer workers who are asked to isolate by Test and Trace. Presumably those will stop when the legal requirement to isolate stops or, at the very latest, when Test and Trace is wound up, which it will be sooner rather than later?

    There's no prospect of SSP being made more generous (after all, it goes to workers not pensioners,) so I fully expect that we'll return to the status quo ante-2020, in which ill people drag themselves to work because they can't afford to fall back on SSP and/or their employers are crap. And when it comes to sickness absence there are an awful lot of bad employers: quite apart from the mercenary scalper bosses, there are also many otherwise not so bad firms that have Draconian policies on sick leave, that basically place anybody who doesn't turn up to work on exactly 100% of the days on which they are expected under suspicion of skiving.

    For good or ill, the Government is obviously now relying entirely on population immunity (whether acquired through infection, vaccination or both) to keep serious Covid illness down to manageable levels.
    Well yes, that is how the pandemic ends: herd immunity.
    It's a serious point though as to whether we want people with viruses to be going around infecting everyone. Cold virus I might make an exception for but for flu/covid 19 isolation seems reasonable. If employers are going to struggle with that heaven help us.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,064

    QTWTAIN?



    Has anyone ever seen Sunak from that angle?
    Not all the party photos have been released yet.
  • Options
    Bozo to scrap covid rules that he and his chum didn't stick to says Star.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    Latest NZ poll has Jacinda’s Labour Party behind for the first time since…???

    Labour 33.0% (-2.5% from December)
    National 35.0% (+3.5%)
    Greens 10.5% (+2.0%)
    ACT 13.5% (-5.0%)
    Maori 2.5% (+1.5%)
    NZ First 2.5% (+0.5%)

    This poll would allow National/Act to govern.

  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    QTWTAIN?



    Has anyone ever seen Sunak from that angle?
    The Downing Street cat?
    You think Larry looks up to any of these ministerial clowns?

    Clearly you have not been following his life on the street. :wink:
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Apologies if this has already been covered, but are the 'questionnaires' that the Met is sending out addressed to witnesses, or suspects, or both? If potentially to suspects, are they under caution?

    The questionnaires are an absolute joke.

    As per my FPT comment:

    A short interview with relevant evidence for each interviewee in a file to be referred to as needed is the minimum I would expect.

    I'm beginning to think, you know, that the police are a bit rubbish at their job.

    Anyway ....

    I plan to be at this shindig.

    I do hope we get some sort of surprise guest bursting out of a cake - Carrie, perhaps.

    Edited: Or @Leon!
    I hope you realise that in order to qualify as a first class PB occasion it's necessary for at least one participant to make their way home via Exeter.
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:

    This is very interesting.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/09/met-police-considering-whether-investigate-pm-boris-johnson-downing-street-flat-refurb

    And very suitable under a Cyclefree header. Is right place for cash for access under bribery?

    I have no wish to be banned - or say anything sub judicial, are we allowed to speculate the money for the flat and then the Dowden meeting looks like a case of straight forward corruption? Are we allowed to post, in my opinion it looks like a case of cash getting access?

    Corruption and bribery are quite hard to prove. Let alone by the Met which admitted last year that it did not have a working definition of corruption for its own use.

    Breaches of various Parliamentary standards and codes would be easier, assuming we can find another brave civil servant not under investigation themselves to look at it.
    Thank you for the reply.

    The obvious person to investigate this as cash for access I think would be Kathryn Stone. But Labour, in their infinite lawyerly wisdom seem to be pushing the Met route first. 🤔
    This is wallpapergate which Kathryn Stone, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, has decided not to investigate. Her decision is presumably why Labour has gone to the police.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,641

    Latest NZ poll has Jacinda’s Labour Party behind for the first time since…???

    Labour 33.0% (-2.5% from December)
    National 35.0% (+3.5%)
    Greens 10.5% (+2.0%)
    ACT 13.5% (-5.0%)
    Maori 2.5% (+1.5%)
    NZ First 2.5% (+0.5%)

    This poll would allow National/Act to govern.

    Let's hope, I think some of us would like to visit NZ without being locked up for two or three weeks.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    QTWTAIN?



    Has anyone ever seen Sunak from that angle?
    Yes, me on Saturday as he chatted to our table. (One on our table was 6 foot 5, so we thought it politic to remain seated....)
  • Options

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    It is all very sad.

    One caveat is that, if a party really wants to change and moderate, it can do so remarkably quickly. The Conservatives took less than five years to go from electing IDS to electing Cameron. Starmer is showing similar efficiency in moving on from the Corbyn years. I'm hopeful that, once the party is ready to listen, there will be sufficient numbers of sufficiently smart, sufficiently attractive people prepared to think about sane Conservative politics.

    The tricky part is getting to a point where the party really does want to change. Milestone 1 will be ditching Bozza. Milestone 2 will be recognising that the 2019 manifesto, whilst electorally popular, is a con trick that's impossible to implement. You can't be low tax and high spend for long without the roof falling in.

    And there's no sign at all that the Conservatives have begun that journey. It's not easy to see how they can without being in opposition first.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,134
    edited February 2022

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
    We shall see how long the new crusade against the curse of presenteeism (a crusade which I endorse) actually lasts - especially when both free Covid home testing ends, and employees start to assume that they have a reasonable expectation of being allowed time off for other debilitating conditions (stomach upsets, flu, etc.,) without being persecuted by overzealous HR officers.

    By the end of this year I reckon it'll be like Covid never happened.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    QTWTAIN?



    Has anyone ever seen Sunak from that angle?
    Yes, me on Saturday as he chatted to our table. (One on our table was 6 foot 5, so we thought it politic to remain seated....)
    One of you must of stood up for him though, or was there a spare chair for him to stand on?
  • Options

    Latest NZ poll has Jacinda’s Labour Party behind for the first time since…???

    Labour 33.0% (-2.5% from December)
    National 35.0% (+3.5%)
    Greens 10.5% (+2.0%)
    ACT 13.5% (-5.0%)
    Maori 2.5% (+1.5%)
    NZ First 2.5% (+0.5%)

    This poll would allow National/Act to govern.

    It's an interesting poll although it appears to have been conducted over a period of 3.5 weeks in January. I would expect some shine to be coming of Ardern with some leader bounce for Luxon but the true position to be between this poll and the Newshub-Reid one.

    Even on this poll, ACT+NAT is still about neck and neck with Lab+Grn+NZF+MRI.
  • Options
    pigeon said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
    We shall see how long the new crusade against the curse of presenteeism (which I endorse) actually lasts - especially when both free Covid home testing ends, and employees start to assume that they have a reasonable expectation of being allowed time off for other debilitating conditions (stomach upsets, flu, etc.,) without being persecuted by overzealous HR officers.

    By the end of this year I reckon it'll be like Covid never happened.
    Nah as far as offices are concerned the fear of being sued will outweigh anything else. All the more so as so many companies have found out they can operate perfectly well with people working remotely. Many have already taken the opportunity to move to hybrid working on a permanent basis and that trend will only continue.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,134

    pigeon said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
    We shall see how long the new crusade against the curse of presenteeism (which I endorse) actually lasts - especially when both free Covid home testing ends, and employees start to assume that they have a reasonable expectation of being allowed time off for other debilitating conditions (stomach upsets, flu, etc.,) without being persecuted by overzealous HR officers.

    By the end of this year I reckon it'll be like Covid never happened.
    Nah as far as offices are concerned the fear of being sued will outweigh anything else. All the more so as so many companies have found out they can operate perfectly well with people working remotely. Many have already taken the opportunity to move to hybrid working on a permanent basis and that trend will only continue.
    Most employees can't work from home.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,242

    Cyclefree said:

    Apologies if this has already been covered, but are the 'questionnaires' that the Met is sending out addressed to witnesses, or suspects, or both? If potentially to suspects, are they under caution?

    The questionnaires are an absolute joke.

    As per my FPT comment:

    A short interview with relevant evidence for each interviewee in a file to be referred to as needed is the minimum I would expect.

    I'm beginning to think, you know, that the police are a bit rubbish at their job.

    Anyway ....

    I plan to be at this shindig.

    I do hope we get some sort of surprise guest bursting out of a cake - Carrie, perhaps.

    Edited: Or @Leon!
    I hope you realise that in order to qualify as a first class PB occasion it's necessary for at least one participant to make their way home via Exeter.
    We can do better, no. Someone runs off with @Leon to post descriptions of cocktails at various bars in ever more insalubrious locations, finally ending up in a ménage a trois with some bemused sheep in Wick.

    Is that the sort of thing? It will be the talk of PB on slow news days forever.
  • Options
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
    We shall see how long the new crusade against the curse of presenteeism (which I endorse) actually lasts - especially when both free Covid home testing ends, and employees start to assume that they have a reasonable expectation of being allowed time off for other debilitating conditions (stomach upsets, flu, etc.,) without being persecuted by overzealous HR officers.

    By the end of this year I reckon it'll be like Covid never happened.
    Nah as far as offices are concerned the fear of being sued will outweigh anything else. All the more so as so many companies have found out they can operate perfectly well with people working remotely. Many have already taken the opportunity to move to hybrid working on a permanent basis and that trend will only continue.
    Most employees can't work from home.
    Many can't. I seriously doubt that is most. Certainly in the dozen or so companies I regularly contract to, every single one has moved to hybrid working for the vast majority of their employees on a permanent basis.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666

    Cyclefree said:

    This is very interesting.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/09/met-police-considering-whether-investigate-pm-boris-johnson-downing-street-flat-refurb

    And very suitable under a Cyclefree header. Is right place for cash for access under bribery?

    I have no wish to be banned - or say anything sub judicial, are we allowed to speculate the money for the flat and then the Dowden meeting looks like a case of straight forward corruption? Are we allowed to post, in my opinion it looks like a case of cash getting access?

    Corruption and bribery are quite hard to prove. Let alone by the Met which admitted last year that it did not have a working definition of corruption for its own use.

    Breaches of various Parliamentary standards and codes would be easier, assuming we can find another brave civil servant not under investigation themselves to look at it.
    Thank you for the reply.

    The obvious person to investigate this as cash for access I think would be Kathryn Stone. But Labour, in their infinite lawyerly wisdom seem to be pushing the Met route first. 🤔
    This is wallpapergate which Kathryn Stone, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, has decided not to investigate. Her decision is presumably why Labour has gone to the police.
    Is there a loophole in our democracy, where an MP at ministerial level can gain from cash for access, and not be properly and independently investigated? I don’t think there is John. To put it politely, those with independence and power to sanction have merely taken a while to investigate.

    What is my reasoning? No one but the guilty would want such a loophole, so if everyone want to prove there is no loophole without suggesting changing current codes and law, they will do so.
  • Options
    I can't argue with any of this from Nellist. Have I become a Trot? Or is he going to do better than we expect?


    Dave Nellist - A Socialist MP For Erdington
    @Dave4Erdington
    Working-class people in Erdington have been thrown under the bus for years now by the council and property developers. While luxury apartments appear in the city centre, social housing declines elsewhere.

    [1/8]

    https://twitter.com/Dave4Erdington/status/1491515238709174278
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,014
    Apropros of being bored this evening, surface plot of monthly repayments on a 25 year mortgage

    Interest x axis, capital y axis

    https://rpubs.com/Pulpstar/Mortgage

    15% +1.5 = 16.5% / 75k = £1034.46
    0.5% + 1.5 = 2% / 275k = £1057.87

    Maybe this is why houses have gone up so much..
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882

    Latest NZ poll has Jacinda’s Labour Party behind for the first time since…???

    Labour 33.0% (-2.5% from December)
    National 35.0% (+3.5%)
    Greens 10.5% (+2.0%)
    ACT 13.5% (-5.0%)
    Maori 2.5% (+1.5%)
    NZ First 2.5% (+0.5%)

    This poll would allow National/Act to govern.

    It's an interesting poll although it appears to have been conducted over a period of 3.5 weeks in January. I would expect some shine to be coming of Ardern with some leader bounce for Luxon but the true position to be between this poll and the Newshub-Reid one.

    Even on this poll, ACT+NAT is still about neck and neck with Lab+Grn+NZF+MRI.
    Sure, but it’s noteworthy nonetheless.

    Pedantic quibble: NZF will not get back, so should effectively be ignored.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,722
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I cannot think of a time when the SFO has not been an embarrassing shambles.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sfo-head-lisa-osofsky-faces-questions-over-investigators-failings-lmxp8bj6k

    I was once interviewed by them as, according to them, an essential witness in a LIBOR trial. This was bollocks on stilts. The interview was amateurishly bad. I was told to expect to be called as a witness the day I was due to go the Hampton Court flower show. I was furious. At the last minute prosecution counsel finally read the statement and told the SFO not to be so bloody silly and I was stood down.

    I just don't know why they are so bad. But it really hampers our ability to deal with financial crime effectively enough - and has done for years.

    When something is really bad for a long time, despite being supposedly important, then my general assumption is that it being bad is actually of some bizarre benefit to decision makers. That despite the right comments there is no will to actually fix it as it would be too much hassle, or cause a fuss with something.
    Without being too mean about the higher ups, they certainly don't want to improve it.
    In my limited experience in company audits, if I ever uncover..... things that aren't right.... it is usually management who have deliberately done it.
    The days of the cash clerk snaffling half the takings are long gone. These days its all tax evasion or bank fraud (depending on what they want) by management.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,877
    edited February 2022
    On a very packed train and tube this evening. Most people wearing masks, in fact a higher proportion than a few months ago. I wonder if that’s because the politics has started to dissipate from issues like mask wearing, so it’s now just a question of following the TFL rules.

    Earlier this morning I drove a couple of ladies to a club for dementia sufferers at a local community garden, and they and the organisers seemed very laid back about masks and distancing.

    I sense the country has lost the fear, and unless something extreme happens, it’s not coming back.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    Some time ago I spoke to one of the 21 who lost the whip. He said he would have done the same if he had been Pm - the 21 had defied the government and left them with no choice
    Even if what you are saying is true, the fact is many moderates, at all levels in the party, who weren’t even sanctioned, walked away as Cummings and Boris fashioned a different kind of Right wing populist party built around the charisma of the populist leader. Even if what you are saying is true, was that not the moment the Conservative Party, the natural party of government in this country, did something very different than it traditionally does?
  • Options

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dead cat works.

    BBC News at 10 leads on Johnson's desperate change to covid rules.

    In what way is it desperate? Do you think Denmark has got it wrong?
    So when it’s no longer a legal requirement to isolate, are you all going to (a) continue to isolate if still testing positive or (b) say stuff it and run round the supermarket linking everyone? I think most people will be a. Time to trust the great British public to do the right thing. Which they’ve been doing for two years. Tory government, and no 10 staff, not so much.
    Yep as a matter of common decency if I get this thing again I will self isolate for 5 days at least. Easier for me as I work from home almost all the time anyway. But from what I have heard most sensible companies are going to keep a requirement in place that you don't come into work if you catch Covid and I think that will remain semi-permanently. They will be concerned both about staff being off sick if they catch it and also the H&S and insurance angles. The fear of getting sued for ignoring their duty of care by making people come into the office when they were positive will be enough to keep those requirements in place.
    We shall see how long the new crusade against the curse of presenteeism (which I endorse) actually lasts - especially when both free Covid home testing ends, and employees start to assume that they have a reasonable expectation of being allowed time off for other debilitating conditions (stomach upsets, flu, etc.,) without being persecuted by overzealous HR officers.

    By the end of this year I reckon it'll be like Covid never happened.
    Nah as far as offices are concerned the fear of being sued will outweigh anything else. All the more so as so many companies have found out they can operate perfectly well with people working remotely. Many have already taken the opportunity to move to hybrid working on a permanent basis and that trend will only continue.
    Most employees can't work from home.
    Many can't. I seriously doubt that is most. Certainly in the dozen or so companies I regularly contract to, every single one has moved to hybrid working for the vast majority of their employees on a permanent basis.
    It does depend on the nature of the work. And whilst it's a massive simplification to split it along blue/white collar lines, it's still a useful one. Work from home isn't an option for many kinds of work.

    However, one of the things that I hoped the Plague Experience would teach us was the folly of presenteeism. If you have an infection, it's in everyone's interests (including your employer's) that you stay at home so you don't make other people sick. That's true even if it means paying people not to come to work. Even if it means having spare staff some of the time.

    Unofrtunately, it seems that Britain isn't planning on learning many lessons from the last couple of years.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,036
    edited February 2022
    Has anyone thought of a PB North gathering?
    Taz, Gallowgate, Pulpstar (?), Cyclefree, eek, cookie, Mr.Ed (?), Another Richard, TSE, Barty, even Big G, maybe, flatlander, etc...?
    Apologies to anyone I have missed. BJO too? And Valiant.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,202

    I can't argue with any of this from Nellist. Have I become a Trot? Or is he going to do better than we expect?


    Dave Nellist - A Socialist MP For Erdington
    @Dave4Erdington
    Working-class people in Erdington have been thrown under the bus for years now by the council and property developers. While luxury apartments appear in the city centre, social housing declines elsewhere.

    [1/8]

    https://twitter.com/Dave4Erdington/status/1491515238709174278

    Birmingham Erdington is a safe Labour seat but not impossible Nellist could come second
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    Some time ago I spoke to one of the 21 who lost the whip. He said he would have done the same if he had been Pm - the 21 had defied the government and left them with no choice
    Even if what you are saying is true, the fact is many moderates, at all levels in the party, who weren’t even sanctioned, walked away as Cummings and Boris fashioned a different kind of Right wing populist party built around the charisma of the populist leader. Even if what you are saying is true, was that not the moment the Conservative Party, the natural party of government in this country, did something very different than it traditionally does?
    I don't buy into this "natural party of government" guff.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    I can't argue with any of this from Nellist. Have I become a Trot? Or is he going to do better than we expect?


    Dave Nellist - A Socialist MP For Erdington
    @Dave4Erdington
    Working-class people in Erdington have been thrown under the bus for years now by the council and property developers. While luxury apartments appear in the city centre, social housing declines elsewhere.

    [1/8]

    https://twitter.com/Dave4Erdington/status/1491515238709174278

    Birmingham Erdington is a safe Labour seat but not impossible Nellist could come second
    It will be interesting to see how the Tories will do, although I can't see how they get less than 25-30% with their respected local candidate.

    I have no idea about local issues or the un/popularity of Bham Council but I'm still predicting an easy Lab hold with 55%+.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    FPT:
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    Legal question: if you have evidence that somebody has accepted bribes, and the police fail to prosecute, is there any way a civil case can be brought by a third party?

    Interesting question. A first glance comment:

    It may be worth looking at the tort of conspiracy if, and only if, you can show that you may have suffered loss by the actions of the other two parties.

    So A trades in plastic ducks. So does B. B bribes C, a wholesale purchase of plastic ducks, to contract with B for the delivery of 400 million plastic ducks.

    A, despite being wholly uninvolved may have a cause of action in conspiracy for loss of opportunity.

    Not sure. There is no doubt plenty more to be said.

    At the moment there isn't a route that springs to mind where the third party has no interest in the matter except a moral one. But maybe there is.

    BTW when people want to litigate out of principle and not for money (as perhaps in this question) lawyers rub their hands together.
    Thank you for this.
    I was just thinking out loud about today's allegations that there is a potential police interest in Boris Johnson's wallpaper, and whether someone with deep pockets might decide to make trouble for Boris if the police decide there're better things to do.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    dixiedean said:

    Has anyone thought of a PB North gathering?
    Taz, Gallowgate, Pulpstar (?), Cyclefree, eek, cookie, Mr.Ed (?), Another Richard, TSE, Barty, even Big G, maybe, flatlander, etc...?
    Apologies to anyone I have missed. BJO too? And Valiant.

    level up!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,202
    edited February 2022

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    It is all very sad.

    One caveat is that, if a party really wants to change and moderate, it can do so remarkably quickly. The Conservatives took less than five years to go from electing IDS to electing Cameron. Starmer is showing similar efficiency in moving on from the Corbyn years. I'm hopeful that, once the party is ready to listen, there will be sufficient numbers of sufficiently smart, sufficiently attractive people prepared to think about sane Conservative politics.

    The tricky part is getting to a point where the party really does want to change. Milestone 1 will be ditching Bozza. Milestone 2 will be recognising that the 2019 manifesto, whilst electorally popular, is a con trick that's impossible to implement. You can't be low tax and high spend for long without the roof falling in.

    And there's no sign at all that the Conservatives have begun that journey. It's not easy to see how they can without being in opposition first.
    Boris is actually left of Cameron on economics and much more of a big spender.

    The idea the Conservatives are going to go on any journey back to the centre for a decade or more is laughable. The party has won most seats for 4 general elections in a row and been in power for 12 years. Once Boris goes if anything the party will move further to the Thatcherite right economically and if it loses the next general election even further to the populist right too.

    It took 8 years in opposition and 3 general election defeats and the leaderships of Hague, IDS and Howard before the party decided to move to the centre with Cameron. It took 10 years in opposition and 4 general election defeats and the leaderships of Ed Miliband and Corbyn for Labour to move to the centre under Starmer.

    In fact the journey to the right of the Tories has barely even begun
  • Options

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    Some time ago I spoke to one of the 21 who lost the whip. He said he would have done the same if he had been Pm - the 21 had defied the government and left them with no choice
    Even if what you are saying is true, the fact is many moderates, at all levels in the party, who weren’t even sanctioned, walked away as Cummings and Boris fashioned a different kind of Right wing populist party built around the charisma of the populist leader. Even if what you are saying is true, was that not the moment the Conservative Party, the natural party of government in this country, did something very different than it traditionally does?
    It was the moment that the Conservative Party ceased to exist and was replaced by the current "Conservative" Party which is closer to being UKIP than the Tory Party of old.
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:

    This is very interesting.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/09/met-police-considering-whether-investigate-pm-boris-johnson-downing-street-flat-refurb

    And very suitable under a Cyclefree header. Is right place for cash for access under bribery?

    I have no wish to be banned - or say anything sub judicial, are we allowed to speculate the money for the flat and then the Dowden meeting looks like a case of straight forward corruption? Are we allowed to post, in my opinion it looks like a case of cash getting access?

    Corruption and bribery are quite hard to prove. Let alone by the Met which admitted last year that it did not have a working definition of corruption for its own use.

    Breaches of various Parliamentary standards and codes would be easier, assuming we can find another brave civil servant not under investigation themselves to look at it.
    Thank you for the reply.

    The obvious person to investigate this as cash for access I think would be Kathryn Stone. But Labour, in their infinite lawyerly wisdom seem to be pushing the Met route first. 🤔
    This is wallpapergate which Kathryn Stone, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, has decided not to investigate. Her decision is presumably why Labour has gone to the police.
    Is there a loophole in our democracy, where an MP at ministerial level can gain from cash for access, and not be properly and independently investigated? I don’t think there is John. To put it politely, those with independence and power to sanction have merely taken a while to investigate.

    What is my reasoning? No one but the guilty would want such a loophole, so if everyone want to prove there is no loophole without suggesting changing current codes and law, they will do so.
    One obvious loophole is where cash goes to parties, rather than in brown envelopes to politicians themselves. Cash for access and cash for honours generally fall into this bracket, whereas Neil Hamilton was actually receiving fine old English banknotes. Wallpapergate might, depending what facts can be established, fall somewhere between these positions.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,666
    edited February 2022
    Farooq said:

    As promised. As well as making the two greatest bowls of tagliatelle ever, I have spoken to my dad about Conservative politics 🙂

    I FaceTimed quite excited by politics, but it ended up a bit of a downer. He has been a Conservative member for decades, but is a remainer so keeps his head down, so no doxing him. When it was quiet after Christmas and the polls closing up, and I said it’s all going to kick off and Boris gone soon, and quite a lot of you disagreed, it wasn’t my thinking it was my Dad telling me it was going to happen.

    I’ll bullet point relevant bits to be brief.

    If there is a leadership election how would you vote? Rishi Sunak. Is a vote of no conference going to happen? At some point, maybe anytime now. But surely they only let it to happen if they aren’t going to hand Boris a win in it? Nope. It could happen any time. Boris could win it. Like Steve Baker said they may need more than one vote. once it’s going to happen everyone on the fence will have to get off it. But you don’t like Steve Baker? This is not a Brexit/Remain thing. This is about propriety in politics. If Steve Baker was in Boris government he would have resigned by now over this, maybe didn’t join because he suspected this end and saw Boris packing the cabinet with useless sycophants.

    I said I have bets on both Harper and Javid, will they win? Nope was the reply. So I explained my thinking Is they could get on a roll because the media will like them, a Top Tory brought up in flat above a high street shop. And he said nope, Javid has a long way to go convincing people in a leadership election he is good choice for leader. Actually before that he said, do a lot of people bet on politics? 🤦‍♀️

    There was then a more complicated discussion where he felt I didn’t appreciate how significant September and October 2019 was. Which is probably true, I was shopping and partying a lot before and during the election. Dads point was, not the Maastricht rebels or wets under Lady Thatcher were thrown or driven out the party before, it was always important to respect one another and keep the wings working together, Boris wrecked the party being a broad church, it lost many experienced and talented up and coming moderate conservatives, just look at the talent in the list of names that disappeared. I said will the next leader after Boris allow them to come back? He answered it will be more complicated than that as it changed the party at parliament, but many moderate members in the party took a que from that to stop paying subs and drift away - what top quality moderate candidates will moderate members have they can vote for in a leadership election, what Boris done changed the party, the price for the damage will be paid for a long time.

    And there you have it. Make of it what you will.

    It all sounds a bit unexpectedly sad 🙁

    Some time ago I spoke to one of the 21 who lost the whip. He said he would have done the same if he had been Pm - the 21 had defied the government and left them with no choice
    Even if what you are saying is true, the fact is many moderates, at all levels in the party, who weren’t even sanctioned, walked away as Cummings and Boris fashioned a different kind of Right wing populist party built around the charisma of the populist leader. Even if what you are saying is true, was that not the moment the Conservative Party, the natural party of government in this country, did something very different than it traditionally does?
    I don't buy into this "natural party of government" guff.
    Even though 20th was the Conservatives century? Even with totting up the wins and years in power since Labour became the main opposition? Surely the stats prove it isn’t guff?

    There always was something wrong with us agreeing with each other. I felt dirty. 😆
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,036
    Farooq said:

    dixiedean said:

    Has anyone thought of a PB North gathering?
    Taz, Gallowgate, Pulpstar (?), Cyclefree, eek, cookie, Mr.Ed (?), Another Richard, TSE, Barty, even Big G, maybe, flatlander, etc...?
    Apologies to anyone I have missed. BJO too? And Valiant.

    level up!
    Several pints of mild in a WMC. With chips and gravy.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,529
    edited February 2022

    I can't argue with any of this from Nellist. Have I become a Trot? Or is he going to do better than we expect?


    Dave Nellist - A Socialist MP For Erdington
    @Dave4Erdington
    Working-class people in Erdington have been thrown under the bus for years now by the council and property developers. While luxury apartments appear in the city centre, social housing declines elsewhere.

    [1/8]

    https://twitter.com/Dave4Erdington/status/1491515238709174278

    Hm. This is an issue in Manchester too - I put the LD victory in Ancoats and Beswick ward down to this very issue.

    But I don't totally take Dave Nellist's line.

    I am very supportive of Manchester CC supporting the development of high value apartments in the city centre. We need fundamentally different city centres to what we used to have - places where people aspire to live, rather than just get put. People don't need city centres any more - they have to want them.
    I'm also not sure (and again, I'm looking at Manchester, not Birmingham, but from what I've seen Birmingham's experience is very similar) that social housing declines elsewhere. There has been a revolution in the quality of social housing in Manchester in my lifetime. It's not all there yet - but back in the 80s and early 90s, ALL council housing in Manchester was horrible and depressing and vaguely threatening. Whereas now you get some really quite nice estates. They're not all nice - but the process of replacing horrible council housing* from the post war era is a long one.
    I do agree that housing is a problem. Demand for housing has outstripped supply. The population of Manchester has increased by about a quarter in the past 20 years. But the problem is supply, not quality of supply (which, as I said, is not yet perfect, but is being addressed heroically). And even this is a problem Manchester is addressing (take a look at proposals for Victoria North - a massive, mixed neighbourhood on the northern edges of the city centre).
    Having worked in planning and development in the past, I'm pretty sceptical of the argument that we provide social housing by compelling developers to provide larger proportions of their output as 'affordable'. There is a belief amongst the dimmer elements of the public sector that by increasing the requirement for affordable housing you increase the amount of affordable housing delivered. You don't: developers go elsewhere and you reduce the quanta delivered.
    So what's the answer? Well I'd say MCC's approach at Victoria North is a good model, although I'm nervous of the amount of Chinese money involved. Other than that, I'd be keen to explore the council-as-developer model, which we have discussed on here before.

    *Note that while post war social housing is almost all horrible, there remains a pretty good stock of housing from the 1930 built as social housing. Drive around some of the older bits of Wythenshawe and blur your eyes a bit and you could be in Welwyn Garden City or Letchworth. It's not a given that the public sector cannot develop attractive housing stock.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,202
    edited February 2022

    Latest NZ poll has Jacinda’s Labour Party behind for the first time since…???

    Labour 33.0% (-2.5% from December)
    National 35.0% (+3.5%)
    Greens 10.5% (+2.0%)
    ACT 13.5% (-5.0%)
    Maori 2.5% (+1.5%)
    NZ First 2.5% (+0.5%)

    This poll would allow National/Act to govern.

    No general election due in New Zealand though for 2 years so a long way to go.

    Ardern also still leads as preferred PM
This discussion has been closed.