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Southend West: CON does 0.3% better than LAB at B&S in 2016 – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,316

    The DUP ought to be reminded that 56% of NI voted to Remain in 2016.
    Infantile gesture politics is much more satisfying.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    IanB2 said:

    A small factor is that we’re in the six month period during which those councils with elections in May - which are predominantly urban - can’t have by-elections. So those we do have are self-selected to Labour’s weaker areas.

    But I also agree with others that Labour are still miles from having sold any sort of deal with the electorate. They are benefitting from looking a little more clued up and professional just as the government has fallen apart. Doing better remains work in progress for Labour - but of course oppositions don’t need to be popular to win, if the government becomes sufficiently unpopular.
    I'm not sure unpopularity is enough in its own right, at least to win a majority starting from the other side having an 80-odd majority. In 1992 and 2010, the government was unpopular but the opposition wasn't popular enough to turn it into an outright win (or, in 1992, a win at all).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,316
    HYUFD said:

    You are a centrist liberal, Max is a centre right liberal.
    Well I have to ask about myself then.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    edited February 2022

    Pineapple on pizza (and ketchup on pasta) most popular in Hong Kong.
    France the only country other than Italy anti pineapple on pizza.

    I didn't realise there was any controversy about garlic bread with pasta..


    Pineapple on pizza (and ketchup on pasta) most popular in Hong Kong.
    France the only country other than Italy anti pineapple on pizza.

    I didn't realise there was any controversy about garlic bread with pasta..


    So pineapple on pizza is the fault of Mexicans and Ozzies….

    And of course it’s the Americans that see macaroni cheese as a side dish.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,553
    dixiedean said:

    The governor of the Bank of England appears to be willing to abandon the free market when it suits.

    Someone who earns £495,000 a year really shouldn't be suggesting what people who earn a 1/20th of what he does should do.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,220

    Looking on the ONS, in November 2021 they posted figures for the period to MARCH 2021.
    The ONS I quoted was from early this year, updating previous numbers for Nov 2021.

    Off to the ologist at the hospital, so no digging time.

    But the Pizza Oven just arrived, so I can take a break from filing.
  • kle4 said:

    I've never noticed a difference whether I salt pasta or not, can't see what the big deal is.

    Fair play to the Italians for setting out their own standards on traditionally italian dishes, but it's all about the cultural appropriation, and everyone can make their own pizza and pasta derived dishes to their own tastes.

    And what do they have against garlic bread?

    I think it's an American invention and doesn't exist in most regional Italian cuisines.
  • If the SM and CU options had both passed in the meaningful votes then perhaps that's where we would have ended up. Unfortunately we will never know because the Tories voted them down.
    Voting to stay in the Customs Union was like voting for free unicorns. It was legally and practically impossible gaving left the EU. No matter how many votes were passed in favour of it it still couldn't happen.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,316

    I think it's an American invention and doesn't exist in most regional Italian cuisines.
    Paprika isn't native to Hungary either, doesn't stop it being used in many 'traditional' dishes apparently.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Applicant said:

    Oh, dear. I did two of the bottom three yesterday (but those are the only negative ones that I ever do...
    I really hope it wasn't the ketchup one.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    I think your postulated universe could only have existed if Vote Leave hadn't been boxed in on the single market question during the referendum campaign. Having won the vote on the basis of leaving the SM/CU, it would have been asking a lot to expect the people who saw that kind of Brexit as pointless to hold their tongue throughout the whole process.
    Well, again, the single market question could have been best dealt with by Cameron putting it on the ballot paper. But since he wanted to get something that would be used as endorsement for full membership (euro/Schengen) without actually campaigning for it, your claim that VL "won the vote on the basis of leaving the SM/CU" is irrelevant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    HYUFD said:

    You are a centrist liberal, Max is a centre right liberal.
    Most liberals I know don't consider me a liberal. For example, I'd bring in a lot of treason laws to deal with people like Shamina Begum, though maybe not the death penalty. Most liberals would be pretty upset by that notion.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    kle4 said:

    I've never noticed a difference whether I salt pasta or not, can't see what the big deal is.

    Everyone's taste buds are different, but I never learned the difference as a child between my mum's spaghetti and her mum's (better, sorry mum) spaghetti - when I became an adult and started experimenting, it turned out it was the salt.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,967
    HYUFD said:

    You are a centrist liberal, Max is a centre right liberal.

    If only you were more competent in persuading all these liberals to actually vote liberal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,531
    edited February 2022

    Yes.

    The point that @kinabalu (and others) misses is that while the New Establishment is not hereditary*, it is still a system by which people are schooled in how to belong to it.

    *Well not entirely. There is a lot of family linkage going on.
    One's chances of entering the financial/social/political elites - plural on purpose - of this country are impacted more than anything by who your parents are and where you went to school. I not only don't miss this point it's the very essence (!) of my politics that I want the link between birth circumstances and life outcomes to be radically weakened. I want it so much that I actually support economic & social policies that would act strongly in that direction.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,509
    Applicant said:

    Well, again, the single market question could have been best dealt with by Cameron putting it on the ballot paper. But since he wanted to get something that would be used as endorsement for full membership (euro/Schengen) without actually campaigning for it, your claim that VL "won the vote on the basis of leaving the SM/CU" is irrelevant.
    That's an odd rewriting of history. Are you claiming that his deal was a sham?
  • Applicant said:

    Well, again, the single market question could have been best dealt with by Cameron putting it on the ballot paper. But since he wanted to get something that would be used as endorsement for full membership (euro/Schengen) without actually campaigning for it, your claim that VL "won the vote on the basis of leaving the SM/CU" is irrelevant.
    Cameron devised the EU referendum as a way of signing us up to the Euro and Schengen by stealth? I have to say that really is a new one.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,946
    Applicant said:

    Everyone's taste buds are different, but I never learned the difference as a child between my mum's spaghetti and her mum's (better, sorry mum) spaghetti - when I became an adult and started experimenting, it turned out it was the salt.

    Salt water also boils at a slightly higher temperature which will affect the absorbtion rate of the pasta. But I gave up putting salt in water for pasta, or indeed pretty much anything else a long time ago.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    That's an odd rewriting of history. Are you claiming that his deal was a sham?
    I am claiming that, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, a Remain vote would have been taken as an endorsement of the EU Project. At first it would have started with things like feeling forced to take part in the EU vaccine procurement programme "to show we are good Europeans" but would certainly have ended with full membership being required. And we couldn't have said no - we would have chosen to Remain "knowing what it meant" just like we "knew what it meant" at the 1975 referendum.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,865
    MaxPB said:

    Most liberals I know don't consider me a liberal. For example, I'd bring in a lot of treason laws to deal with people like Shamina Begum, though maybe not the death penalty. Most liberals would be pretty upset by that notion.
    I actually think of that as Old Fashioned Liberalism.

    1) Define the crime - both for the potential criminals and the world at large. Everyone knows the score.
    2) The punishment for the crime is in a court of law, with all the proper check and balances.

    Contrast that with deleting your citizenship at whim - which was introduced precisely because of the elimination of ways of dealing with such situations under the law!

    I'd include in the legislation, specifically, that it pulls in the international law on war crimes. So Begum, for example, could be prosecuted for war crimes *and* treason.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,745
    Cyclefree said:

    You make a good point. But the key issue is not that you believe the victims. But that you listen to them properly and you investigate what they say thoroughly. So that you can do them justice.

    What those who raise concerns want above all else is to be truly heard and for those concerns to be taken seriously.

    That has been conflated into "you must believe" for the reasons you describe. But it is an erroneous conflation. Because there is a subtle but important distinction between the two.

    That distinction has not been appreciated fully or taught effectively. The combination of empathy and a ruthless focus on evidence and facts is essential for an investigator. But hard to get right.

    Some individual policemen may do so. But on the whole this is not understood or appreciated or taught or rewarded. Investigation is both art and science and becoming skilled in it is much much harder than it seems.
    I think we're in agreement, actually, especially if you read what I wrote carefully. I didn't say that the key issue is that you believe the victims. I said that your starting point should be to believe the victims - there's a big difference. The issue being that the starting point should definitely not be to disbelieve the victims, as it so often used to be.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Scott_xP said:

    Day 5...

    Sajid Javid says that Sir Keir Starmer did "a good job" as director of public prosecutions and insists Boris Johnson has "clarified" his accusation that he had failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile.

    Latest politics: https://news.sky.com/politics https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1489591161958379525/video/1

    Praise by Tories for SKS.

    Shocked!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272
    MaxPB said:

    Most liberals I know don't consider me a liberal. For example, I'd bring in a lot of treason laws to deal with people like Shamina Begum, though maybe not the death penalty. Most liberals would be pretty upset by that notion.
    Go you gravitate towards the importance of family, nation and retaining the status-quo; or do you gravitate towards individual rights and freedoms?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,292
    edited February 2022
    MaxPB said:

    The Big Dog wouldn't flounce and neither should you.
    Really? Is it fun reading him throw around discredited crap that he picked up from an Alt Right website? If anyone enjoys that sort of stuff you'll find it all over the place. You could work your way up to it by a trudge through Guido's site.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,239
    Scott_xP said:

    Day 5...

    Sajid Javid says that Sir Keir Starmer did "a good job" as director of public prosecutions and insists Boris Johnson has "clarified" his accusation that he had failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile.

    Latest politics: https://news.sky.com/politics https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1489591161958379525/video/1

    Boris gets "clarified" like butter: by applying heat.....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,865

    I think we're in agreement, actually, especially if you read what I wrote carefully. I didn't say that the key issue is that you believe the victims. I said that your starting point should be to believe the victims - there's a big difference. The issue being that the starting point should definitely not be to disbelieve the victims, as it so often used to be.
    The problem, I think is people who have problems understanding even the slightest concept of judgement and accountability. They seem to be able to either

    - Disbelieve the accusers
    - Believe the accusers

    The idea that you start by accepting the accusers evidence and then go and get other evidence and add it up to see what is *probably true* seems too complex for them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,531
    edited February 2022
    Cookie said:

    Hm.
    If the Establishment is a sliding scale from 0 to 100, I must be at least an 80. I have a public sector office job and live in a comfortable middle class suburb of a big city. The views I am surrounded by are overwhelmingly left-wing. Every voice at work (people sometimes talk about being in 'the party' - there is never any doubt which party they mean). The schools my children attend. The views expressed by my Establishment peers.

    There may be right wing views in the Establishment. But apart from some noisy and ineffective froth in the political sphere, you almost never hear any right wing views expressed.

    I did once hear someone confess to me, sotto voce, that having worked in a field which required European funding, he had become a little sceptical about the whole European process. And once, in a previous (non-public sector) job, someone admitted to me he had voted Conservative at the 2015 GE.

    These are the only right wing views I can remember being openly expressed in the last ten years.
    But what I'm talking about are the upper echelons. The people with real political and financial clout. What you're talking about here is more the affluent middle class. In Malmesbury speak the Establishment is the 10,000 not the 2 million.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272

    Boris gets "clarified" like butter: by applying heat.....
    Has your MP put a letter in?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,509
    Applicant said:

    I am claiming that, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, a Remain vote would have been taken as an endorsement of the EU Project. At first it would have started with things like feeling forced to take part in the EU vaccine procurement programme "to show we are good Europeans" but would certainly have ended with full membership being required. And we couldn't have said no - we would have chosen to Remain "knowing what it meant" just like we "knew what it meant" at the 1975 referendum.
    The difference is that in 1975, people spoke about the possibiltiy of a future single currency, even a future United States of Europe. It really was an endorsement of the project.

    In contrast, David Cameron campaigned by saying that will *never* join the Euro. It's a bit hard to twist that after the fact.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    Stocky said:

    Go you gravitate towards the importance of family, nation and retaining the status-quo; or do you gravitate towards individual rights and freedoms?
    It really depends on the situation, in general I'd favour the rights of individuals in most situations, but there are times where the greater good or the unity of the nation are more important. Hence my support for much tougher treason laws and sentencing. There are some cases where the national interest overrides individual rights, war is a common example given, the pandemic start is a recent one as well. It's why Boris' parties offend us all so much, lots of people agree that in times of war special governance is needed to get through a tough spot and we expect everyone around us to abide by the rules even if they disagree.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    The difference is that in 1975, people spoke about the possibiltiy of a future single currency, even a future United States of Europe. It really was an endorsement of the project.

    In contrast, David Cameron campaigned by saying that will *never* join the Euro. It's a bit hard to twist that after the fact.
    Have you ever met the EU? Twisting things towards the way they see the world is exactly what they do.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,509
    A shocking article about the state of San Francisco. The death toll from fentanyl overdoses has been higher than from covid during the pandemic.

    https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/sf-fentanyl-opioid-epidemic/
  • Voting to stay in the Customs Union was like voting for free unicorns. It was legally and practically impossible gaving left the EU. No matter how many votes were passed in favour of it it still couldn't happen.
    "The CU" vs "a CU".
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,935
    edited February 2022
    kinabalu said:

    But what I'm talking about are the upper echelons. The people with real political and financial clout. What you're talking about here is more the affluent middle class. In Malmesbury speak it's the 10,000 not the 2 million.
    The Crispin Odeys, the William and Jacob Rees-Moggs, even the Sir Jim Ratcliffes, Britain's richest person. Also the Lord Rothermeres and Rupert Murdochs, equally globally financially mobile as all of these.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,509
    Applicant said:

    Have you ever met the EU? Twisting things towards the way they see the world is exactly what they do.
    I'm beginning to think that you wouldn't have accepted David Cameron going for an EEA-style option.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Praise by Tories for SKS.

    Shocked!
    My understanding is that you yourself are a Tory these days.
  • Applicant said:

    Have you ever met the EU? Twisting things towards the way they see the world is exactly what they do.
    If Remain had won by a thirty point margin or more, then I could maybe have seen that as a mandate for the *project*.
    A 52-48 win for Remain really wouldn't have been.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,544
    edited February 2022
    dixiedean said:

    This is true.
    However, the cost of living crisis hasn't hit yet. I commented yesterday that 1992 was a one -two punch.
    The election of a credible LOTO was the first. Black Wednesday was the knockout. The economic picture is truly dire.
    To be truly dire, we would have to have high unemployment. Wages falling behind prices is bad, and for the poor very bad, but it’s nothing compared to the personal and societal damage of long-term unemployment.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272
    MaxPB said:

    It really depends on the situation, in general I'd favour the rights of individuals in most situations, but there are times where the greater good or the unity of the nation are more important. Hence my support for much tougher treason laws and sentencing. There are some cases where the national interest overrides individual rights, war is a common example given, the pandemic start is a recent one as well. It's why Boris' parties offend us all so much, lots of people agree that in times of war special governance is needed to get through a tough spot and we expect everyone around us to abide by the rules even if they disagree.
    I suspect you have a high level of tolerance for alternative (i.e. not trad family) lifestyles and eccentricities. And prefer a smaller state generally but accepts its role in ameliorating inequality to some degree in the name of extending freedoms?

    From your posts I have you down more of a liberal than a conservative I think.

    Of course, we are talking ideology (small c and small l). Party affiliation is a different, though connected, matter.
  • kinabalu said:

    I wonder what the DUP were thinking when they campaigned for Brexit? Were they (secretly and sordidly) hoping it would lead to a hard border between NI and the Republic? Or were they assuming the whole of the UK would stay in the Single Market? It's quite hard to fathom.
    I don’t think they could tell you themselves. I suspect Brexit right wing populism chimed with their own version of conservatism, their distrust of May and the foolish trust they put in BJ kinda indicates such. Never let it be said that Doopers let analysis get in the way of atavistic feeling.

    Quite something to remember that there was a time on here when the DUP were according grudging respect for the way they’d played Theresa.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    edited February 2022
    Roger said:

    Really? Is it fun reading him throw around discredited crap that he picked up from an Alt Right website? If anyone enjoys that sort of stuff you'll find it all over the place. You could work your way up to it by a trudge through Guido's site.
    HYUFD said:

    No you are a fiscal conservative, centre right liberal.

    However again still not hard right populist like Mr Ed
    How would you classify me, out of interest?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,976
    MrEd said:

    Chaps, I am coming off this website. After this morning, I've just decided the downsides are far greater than the upsides re info, betting tips. Good luck to the many decent individuals on here and thanks for all the betting tips you have given over the years.

    Sorry to see this. I have often agreed with your posts.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,713
    kinabalu said:

    But what I'm talking about are the upper echelons. The people with real political and financial clout. What you're talking about here is more the affluent middle class. In Malmesbury speak the Establishment is the 10,000 not the 2 million.
    But presumably the upper echelons of my organisation are part of the 10,000 rather than the 2 million. And they move in the circles of others from the 10,000. And it seems unlikely that the consistently left-leaning voices that those people use to us in the organisation, and which is communicated so assiduously in weekly emails, is suddenly turned off behind closed doors.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    I'm beginning to think that you wouldn't have accepted David Cameron going for an EEA-style option.
    Then you are wrong.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,865
    edited February 2022
    kinabalu said:

    But what I'm talking about are the upper echelons. The people with real political and financial clout. What you're talking about here is more the affluent middle class. In Malmesbury speak it's the 10,000 not the 2 million.
    It's the same all the way up.

    A fun example....

    You may remember some entertainment in Afghanistan with guns jamming. The spin was that Ol' Ma Duece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning) was unreliable. Which is hysterically funny - people have been trying to replace the M2 for a century. And failing, since it is so reliable.

    What happened was this.

    - Ammunition procurement for the British Army was run by an office of old farts.
    - The New Establishment types replaced them with a new office of representative, modern, younger civil servants
    - They knew nothing of ammunition or guns. As good, modern, sensible people, they hated firearms and regarded them as unpleasant.
    - ...And bought the cheapest they could find.
    - The cheap stuff leaves massive amounts of residue in the guns. Which is great for jamming things up

    When I talked to a bright young star in the Cabinet Office (a friend) - he was horrified by the suggestion that anything had gone wrong.

    They had replaced tired old fashioned people with properly selected and trained people. Who were impeccably right in every way.

    He actually said "Do you want the ammunition for the British Army to be bought by a bunch of gun nuts??!?"

    As a postscript. It was discovered, in the nick of time that the same people had noticed that sniper ammunition was costing a lot of money. So they were about to place an order to replace all of it with the cheapest they could find. And sell the expensive stuff.....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,997
    One of the partners in my firm declared the other day that the cost of living situation is starting to bite and even he is having to scrutinise his direct debits more closely.

    My “tone deaf”-dar was screaming.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,553

    New Thread

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    I actually think of that as Old Fashioned Liberalism.

    1) Define the crime - both for the potential criminals and the world at large. Everyone knows the score.
    2) The punishment for the crime is in a court of law, with all the proper check and balances.

    Contrast that with deleting your citizenship at whim - which was introduced precisely because of the elimination of ways of dealing with such situations under the law!

    I'd include in the legislation, specifically, that it pulls in the international law on war crimes. So Begum, for example, could be prosecuted for war crimes *and* treason.
    Good post.

    Bring Begum back for whatever crime you think she's committed and then try her in a court of law. Don't just bow to the masses and exclude her rendering her effectively stateless.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,598
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, with the Rotherham and similar, there's much heard about how it was allowed to go on because of cultural cringe to muslim sensibilities, and that's a valid and important observation, but I also (like you) think a part of it was the dismissal of the victims because they were working class girls. So class and gender - or sex! :smile: - in there too.

    And as for rocking up at Pride, that looks particularly sick in the light of the Stephen Port case. Did you see the report and the various progs on that? What an absolute scandal. 3 gay men murdered due to the police deciding the death of the 1st one was no big deal.
    Yes. Sex matters. 😉

    I wrote a whole header on the Stephen Port case. Here - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/12/12/dont-tell-show-us/.

    (You need to pay more attention ..... to me anyway ....😁)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,436
    MaxPB said:

    Most liberals I know don't consider me a liberal. For example, I'd bring in a lot of treason laws to deal with people like Shamina Begum, though maybe not the death penalty. Most liberals would be pretty upset by that notion.
    I'm liking the 'maybe' not the death penalty!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,965
    HYUFD said:

    Ironically it is probably better for the DUP now that Starmer wins the next general election.

    Starmer would align the whole UK closer to a CU and the EEA than either Boris or Sunak would (hence solving much of the NIP and Irish Sea border issue by default anyway). Plus unlike Corbyn, Starmer has said he wants to keep Northern Ireland in the UK
    That sounds like a converted Remain voter to Leaver with secondhand buyer's remorse.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,531

    It's the same all the way up.

    A fun example....

    You may remember some entertainment in Afghanistan with guns jamming. The spin was that Ol' Ma Duece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning) was unreliable. Which is hysterically funny - people have been trying to replace the M2 for a century. And failing, since it is so reliable.

    What happened was this.

    - Ammunition procurement for the British Army was run by an office of old farts.
    - The New Establishment types replaced them with a new office of representative, modern, younger civil servants
    - They knew nothing of ammunition or guns. As good, modern, sensible people, they hated firearms and regarded them as unpleasant.
    - ...And bought the cheapest they could find.
    - The cheap stuff leaves massive amounts of residue in the guns. Which is great for jamming things up

    When I talked to a bright young star in the Cabinet Office (a friend) - he was horrified by the suggestion that anything had gone wrong.

    They had replaced tired old fashioned people with properly selected and trained people. Who were impeccably right in every way.

    He actually said "Do you want the ammunition for the British Army to be bought by a bunch of gun nuts??!?"

    As a postscript. It was discovered, in the nick of time that the same people had noticed that sniper ammunition was costing a lot of money. So they were about to place an order to replace all of it with the cheapest they could find. And sell the expensive stuff.....
    Yes, subject matter expertise increasingly ignored in favour of bland slick generalism. Good point. Agree. But you don't draw the same conclusions from it as I do. Don't think you do, anyway, because you never support me when I'm floating remedies.
  • Your table does not give the number of spoilt papers which I see elsewhere exceeded 1000. Thus "spoilt papers" would have come "second" and "saved" its deposit. Food for thought for those of us interested in the nuts and bolts of the electoral process.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,531
    Cookie said:

    But presumably the upper echelons of my organisation are part of the 10,000 rather than the 2 million. And they move in the circles of others from the 10,000. And it seems unlikely that the consistently left-leaning voices that those people use to us in the organisation, and which is communicated so assiduously in weekly emails, is suddenly turned off behind closed doors.
    Yes, fair enough. Amongst the elites - which I'm defining as the small number of people will big political and financial clout - there will be some lefties. But I was mainly disagreeing with Algakirk's assertion that this was 'overwhelmingly' the case. I think the opposite. There are far more of the type of operators that Whispering Oracle refers to.
This discussion has been closed.