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Tonight’s Southend W result will be compared with 2016 Batley & Spen – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,826
edited February 2022 in General
imageTonight’s Southend W result will be compared with 2016 Batley & Spen – politicalbetting.com

Thankfully we do not have too many by-elections being held because the sitting MP has been murdered. Back in 1990 other parties did NOT stand aside after the killing by the Provisional IRA of Eastbourne MP, Ian Gow, and the LDs went on to take the seat in the October 1990 by-election.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289
    10,000 Tories
    3,000 UKIP
    1,000 for the other assorted (Even further right wing) loons
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014
    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    News too important to miss FPT

    Oh no, not only are they looking to drop Modern Pentathlon from the Olympics, but even if it gets back in they are removing the most hilarious part of it, the showjumping! Seeing horses refuse to jump was great entertainment.

    (Boxing and Weightlifting are also at risk because they are dodgy AF)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59160490
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289
    I'll admit I'd be torn between voting Tory and sitting on my hands in this one.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    eek said:

    Wind is great when it's windy but not much use when it isn't - and we don't currently have any sane way to store enough power to get us through 2 to 3 days of zero wind when that happens (and will we ever have enough storage).

    Until we have a large surplus of wind that needs to be regularly stored we're never going to find out which potential storage technology scales economically to store the energy, because the energy doesn't need to be stored now.

    So we need to get on and build the wind turbines and create the surplus so that the market can work out what storage technology works. We can't wait until we've designed all the bits in advance.
    There are storage options but they aren't cheap. Batteries work on one level, Energy Vault may work on another. But all of them are gambles and need to be added to the cost of the wind turbines to calculate the real cost of wind power.
  • Options
    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    Based on nothing I say if any party bar the Tories gets into double figures percentage wise, that's a bad result. There are no serious competitors and if Batley is any indication at all, even on low turnout the disruptor parties and attention seekers should not make headway beyond, at best, saving deposit.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,509
    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    edited February 2022

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    That sort of thing is funny enough at regular by-elections (This win in a safe opposition seat during mid term shows people hate the government and we are on track to have a new government etc), but would be even better here.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    You'd have to hope they'd give a speech extolling the virtues of Amiss and vowing to work as hard as he did for their constituents.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    Or state in the acceptance speech that their first act will be to write a letter
  • Options
    Time to turn the heating down...
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited February 2022
    How quickly will Anna Firth be eligible to send a letter to Brady?

    (Edit: yep, several other people immediately thought along the same lines quicker than I could post this!)
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,054
    edited February 2022
    Energy price cap to rise to £1,971 (+£693)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,804

    Energy price cap to rise to £1,971 (+£693)

    Ouch
  • Options
    Rishi statement in HOC at 11.30
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,509

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    I saw something on twitter which was a very generous endorsement of the candidate from Sir David Amess's widow. I think that will be delivered door-to-door. Should be enough to reassure core Tory vote to actually vote.
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,804

    Rishi statement in HOC at 11.30

    Then BoE rate rise at 12
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I don't think parties should feel obliged to stand anywhere, it is up to them after all, so I don't see them refusing to as somehow dishonourable, but I do hope we get past it. I find the arguments in favour of standing aside to be misplaced.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,986
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289
    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    edited February 2022
    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289
    ping said:

    Rishi statement in HOC at 11.30

    Then BoE rate rise at 12
    Back to the issues....

    £20 a month on the mortgage and £50 on the energy....

    As you were..
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    On teledildonics, Amazon has 456 results for Bluetooth enabled vibrators.

    I have no idea how this works, readers should DTOR.
  • Options
    If I had any influence over Labour or the Lib Dems I'd have told them to put a candidate in. People remember Sir David fondly for his role as a constituency MP not for his party allegiance.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    edited February 2022

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    I saw something on twitter which was a very generous endorsement of the candidate from Sir David Amess's widow. I think that will be delivered door-to-door. Should be enough to reassure core Tory vote to actually vote.
    Should never have been permitted. Party political speech at the funeral, effectively. How on earth can they now morally expect a free run?

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,522

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    It was in Labour's gift to make sure that happened in B&S. If they had said to the Tories and Lib Dems (and anyone else) that they think it should be contested as normal, then we wouldn't be where we are now.

    But once it happened in B&S, that's it forever more. The precedent is set and no way is it going to be broken.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    If the Tories hold Southend West it will be a boost, only their second by election hold in government in the last 5 years after Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    A win is a win and that will boost Boris. The main winners tonight though may end up being UKIP, as the main non Tory alternative even 20-30% for them would see them making headlines tomorrow on their hardline 'stop the boats' and anti immigration message. Remember in 2015 UKIP got 17% in Southend West so they have potential voters there
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,276
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,822
    Curse of the new thread:

    Pulpstar said:


    Finding a good lawyers seems as hard as finding an accountant who can add.

    I recall spending an afternoon proof reading the conveyancing on a home purchase. Given it was all boiler plate, copy and pasta, the number of errors made was impressive. After finding the 3rd mistake, I binned the lawyer.

    In all honesty, accountants CAN'T add up. I use my calculator.
    A good accountant is one who can present the accounts in the way the client wants, without going overboard.

    If you want good results, then Debits belong in the balance sheet, Credits in the P&L [1]

    [1] Did an audit once where the client had basically done this. Accounts were materially wrong. Client presented profit of £150k, had actually lost £350k.
    Eek

    I'd be sacked if I made that sort of error (I'm an internal accountant) - did he have enough reserves to ride it out ?
    Effectively yes. It was deliberate by the client.
    The MD pressured the FD to present the 'right' result to the bank (basically, all senior management were in on it, and senior management were also the shareholders, presenting us as auditors in an impossible situation).

    The audit was a shambles. To his credit, the audit partner flatly refused to completely roll over. We insisted on £200k of adjustments (to a £50k loss) and repped the rest. They did this basically every year. Towards the end the real balance sheet was a complete disaster but a friendly bank kept them going till an outside investor saw something we didn't and bought them out.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,804

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    I do see another side to this: it was not a 'normal' death. IMV we do not want assassinations to be a way of changing the make-up of parliament.

    If an MP dies of disease, or a car crash, or a house fire, have a contested election. If they're assassinated, don't.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    On teledildonics, Amazon has 456 results for Bluetooth enabled vibrators.

    I have no idea how this works, readers should DTOR.

    Could be useful if you're having to self isolate from your partner.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,276
    ping said:

    Rishi statement in HOC at 11.30

    Then BoE rate rise at 12
    1922 committee announcement at 1?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,142
    If the Clown is cynical enough to collapse the GFA to get letters to Brady rescinded, Mrs May and her chums need to get their letter in.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Stereodog said:

    If I had any influence over Labour or the Lib Dems I'd have told them to put a candidate in. People remember Sir David fondly for his role as a constituency MP not for his party allegiance.

    Not after Batley & Spen. It would have looked ungracious at best and been a significant unforced error by SKS.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014
    FPT
    Carnyx said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    It doesn't even matter if it's a Ponzi job or not. When the first post Scottish Independence election came around in EWNI (or whatever is left) 1 party would offer to stop those pensions and spend the money on something in EWNI and win by a landslide.

    Even if the Scottish Government had a valid argument (and they don't as there is no pot of invested money to split) events outside their control would result in pensions ending up being their issue very, very quickly.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

    In 2005 GE, Catherine Taylor-Dawson got 1 in Cardiff North.

    Please look at Wikipedia for verification, I can't link from this non sophisticated phone!
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    If the Tories hold Southend West it will be a boost, only their second by election hold in government in the last 5 years after Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    A win is a win and that will boost Boris. The main winners tonight though may end up being UKIP, as the main non Tory alternative even 20-30% for them would see them making headlines tomorrow on their hardline 'stop the boats' and anti immigration message. Remember in 2015 UKIP got 17% in Southend West so they have potential voters there

    It's like winning a bum-kicking contest when the only competition is a one legged man. If that, and Fabricate lying on behalf of Sambrook, are your best points of the day you are in trouble.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    tlg86 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    It was in Labour's gift to make sure that happened in B&S. If they had said to the Tories and Lib Dems (and anyone else) that they think it should be contested as normal, then we wouldn't be where we are now.

    But once it happened in B&S, that's it forever more. The precedent is set and no way is it going to be broken.
    I'm not so sure about the last part. As there's now been one on each side, if the parties agreed now that it wouldn't happen again, that would be fine.

    Absent such agreement, though, then I would expect you'd be right that the precedent will be held to again next time.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    If the Clown is cynical enough to collapse the GFA to get letters to Brady rescinded, Mrs May and her chums need to get their letter in.

    How does collapsing the GFA result in letters being rescinded?
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,804
    I’ve posted on this before, but I strongly agree that this should be uncontested. Well done to the lds and labour. Our democracy must outright reject political violence and we simply cannot incentivise the murdering of MP’s in any way.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    To update a matter we were discussing recently: Raith Rovers has backtracked on signing Mr Goodwillie which led to the withdrawal of sponsorship, "the resignation of directors, club officials and the women's captain" while "Raith TV also vowed to stop broadcasting the men’s team’s matches, while the women’s team has sought to distance itself entirely from the men’s outfit."

    Chairman: “I can therefore confirm that, following a meeting of the Raith Rovers board, the player will not be selected by Raith Rovers and we will enter into discussions with the player regarding his contractual position."

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19895851.raith-rovers-fan-raises-10-000-rape-crisis-scotland/
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19896261.david-goodwillie-raith-rovers-apologise-signing-rapist/?ref=ebbn
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    News too important to miss FPT

    Oh no, not only are they looking to drop Modern Pentathlon from the Olympics, but even if it gets back in they are removing the most hilarious part of it, the showjumping! Seeing horses refuse to jump was great entertainment.

    (Boxing and Weightlifting are also at risk because they are dodgy AF)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59160490

    Tbh I'm slightly worried about Youtube-trained kids jumping off concrete ramps on bikes and skateboards.
  • Options
    sladeslade Posts: 1,963
    As well as Southend West there is a varied selection of local by-elections today. The Conservatives are defending in Cotswold and Tamworth, Labour in Leicester and Manchester, and there are 2 Lib Dem defences in Dacorum.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

    In 2005 GE, Catherine Taylor-Dawson got 1 in Cardiff North.

    Please look at Wikipedia for verification, I can't link from this non sophisticated phone!
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/124.stm

    She stood on the "Vote for Yourself Rainbow Dream Ticket" - and it would appear everyone else in the constituency played along with the joke.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,522

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    I do see another side to this: it was not a 'normal' death. IMV we do not want assassinations to be a way of changing the make-up of parliament.

    If an MP dies of disease, or a car crash, or a house fire, have a contested election. If they're assassinated, don't.
    Yes, if a bomb went off at a party conference, it could be the difference between a government having a majority or not.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    edited February 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    The book of heroic failures (which incidentally includes reference to and a quote by the author Sean Thomas) makes reference to an election in North Dakota where no one voted for any of the six candidates, not even the candidates or the people at the ballot station, which is some achievement - lots of places have no candidates put forward and so no election, but that goes the extra mile.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,882
    edited February 2022

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

    In 2005 GE, Catherine Taylor-Dawson got 1 in Cardiff North.

    Please look at Wikipedia for verification, I can't link from this non sophisticated phone!
    Beeb report
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/wales/4523583.stm
    (Badly written as the second paragraph suggests she won only one vote across four constituencies, although later clarified)

    Aside: I didn't know you could stand in multiple seats. What happens if you win more than one?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,029
    edited February 2022

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    edited February 2022
    54% rise in Energy Price cap on 1/4/22

    Average bill to rise from £1277 to £1971

    M Lewis
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    eek said:

    If the Clown is cynical enough to collapse the GFA to get letters to Brady rescinded, Mrs May and her chums need to get their letter in.

    How does collapsing the GFA result in letters being rescinded?
    RallY Round And Defend Brexit - khaki election strategy I assume.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    53% rise in Energy Price cap on 1/4/22

    Average bill to rise from £1277 to £1971

    M Lewis

    And more to come in August when the other half of the current increase in prices is reflected in the cap..
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    edited February 2022
    54% Rise on Pre Pay meter £1309 - £2017
  • Options
    Interesting chat by Julia HB with an energy company boss about the situation:

    https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1489182114188824580
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ping said:

    I’ve posted on this before, but I strongly agree that this should be uncontested. Well done to the lds and labour. Our democracy must outright reject political violence and we simply cannot incentivise the murdering of MP’s in any way.

    What is wrong with that, is this: the true nutters in politics hate the wrong subtype of their own party much more than they hate the opposition. You therefore create opportunities for Corbynites to murder sitting Blairites safe in the knowledge that at best a Corbynite might get in, at worst at least Tory scum won't; and vice versa for soft vs hardline Brexiteer Tory nutters. So the argument is worthless.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    I’ve posted on this before, but I strongly agree that this should be uncontested. Well done to the lds and labour. Our democracy must outright reject political violence and we simply cannot incentivise the murdering of MP’s in any way.

    What is wrong with that, is this: the true nutters in politics hate the wrong subtype of their own party much more than they hate the opposition. You therefore create opportunities for Corbynites to murder sitting Blairites safe in the knowledge that at best a Corbynite might get in, at worst at least Tory scum won't; and vice versa for soft vs hardline Brexiteer Tory nutters. So the argument is worthless.
    Also because it's up to the voters to decide if the party deserves to be represented at all, given that the person for whom they actually voted is not there any more.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    eek said:

    53% rise in Energy Price cap on 1/4/22

    Average bill to rise from £1277 to £1971

    M Lewis

    And more to come in August when the other half of the current increase in prices is reflected in the cap..
    Next rise will be 1/10/22
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,971
    edited February 2022
    kle4 said:

    News too important to miss FPT

    Oh no, not only are they looking to drop Modern Pentathlon from the Olympics, but even if it gets back in they are removing the most hilarious part of it, the showjumping! Seeing horses refuse to jump was great entertainment.

    (Boxing and Weightlifting are also at risk because they are dodgy AF)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59160490

    It was a hoot but it really wasn't fair. You cannot make a horse do what it doesn't want to, no matter how good a horseperson you are.

    Boxing has been pushing its luck for decades. It has ignored innumerable warnings from the IOC to clean up its act and can hardly complain if the ultimate sanction is imposed.

    Don't know about weightlifting but I guess you can't compete seriously without chemical assistance.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    eek said:

    53% rise in Energy Price cap on 1/4/22

    Average bill to rise from £1277 to £1971

    M Lewis

    And more to come in August when the other half of the current increase in prices is reflected in the cap..
    Next rise will be 1/10/22
    And the next announcement is in August.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,306

    kle4 said:

    News too important to miss FPT

    Oh no, not only are they looking to drop Modern Pentathlon from the Olympics, but even if it gets back in they are removing the most hilarious part of it, the showjumping! Seeing horses refuse to jump was great entertainment.

    (Boxing and Weightlifting are also at risk because they are dodgy AF)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59160490

    Tbh I'm slightly worried about Youtube-trained kids jumping off concrete ramps on bikes and skateboards.
    It's not a YouTube thing. I rode an RM80 off our garage roof when I was 13 in 1980.
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
    He might be right. It seems unlikely but not impossible. There are lots of edge cases (Scots who move to Europe, for instance) when it comes to pensions that will have to be negotiated so perhaps they will be bundled together. It might also depend on whether the split is between Scotland and E,W,NI or between Scotland and the United Kingdom.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    Selebian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

    In 2005 GE, Catherine Taylor-Dawson got 1 in Cardiff North.

    Please look at Wikipedia for verification, I can't link from this non sophisticated phone!
    Beeb report
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/wales/4523583.stm
    (Badly written as the second paragraph suggests she won only one vote across four constituencies, although later clarified)

    Aside: I didn't know you could stand in multiple seats. What happens if you win more than one?
    I'm not sure you can anymore. At local elections I'm sure there was someone local to me who would nominate for all wards on a council they were entitled to sit on (they were entitled to sit on 6-7 by virtue of being within 3 miles), and then they could withdraw nomination from the ones which were to be contested, but I believe now the deadlines are the same, so if you are nominated for more than one you are disqualified as you cannot withdraw only after seeing how many are standing?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    HYUFD said:

    If the Tories hold Southend West it will be a boost, only their second by election hold in government in the last 5 years after Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    A win is a win and that will boost Boris. The main winners tonight though may end up being UKIP, as the main non Tory alternative even 20-30% for them would see them making headlines tomorrow on their hardline 'stop the boats' and anti immigration message. Remember in 2015 UKIP got 17% in Southend West so they have potential voters there

    Increased Majority nailed on!!
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    Cookie said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
    He might be right. It seems unlikely but not impossible. There are lots of edge cases (Scots who move to Europe, for instance) when it comes to pensions that will have to be negotiated so perhaps they will be bundled together. It might also depend on whether the split is between Scotland and E,W,NI or between Scotland and the United Kingdom.
    But how do you square that with the next General Election campaign where the largest opposition party will turn round and say that Scottish Pension money could be spent on social care here and that is what we are going to do?

    It just doesn't work regardless of how the Scottish can hope it does
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,613
    (FPT)

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Wind is great when it's windy but not much use when it isn't - and we don't currently have any sane way to store enough power to get us through 2 to 3 days of zero wind when that happens (and will we ever have enough storage).

    Until we have a large surplus of wind that needs to be regularly stored we're never going to find out which potential storage technology scales economically to store the energy, because the energy doesn't need to be stored now.

    So we need to get on and build the wind turbines and create the surplus so that the market can work out what storage technology works. We can't wait until we've designed all the bits in advance.
    The other market, of course, is the inter-country interconnects.
    Which already exists, and will get much larger.
    Blocking highs usually cover most of western Europe.
    Large scale continent wide interconnects won't remove that problem, but they would greatly mitigate it - particularly when other renewables are added into the mix.

    But if you have sufficient renewables capacity, then it is manageable without excessive cost. There's been a lot of back and forth on this; here's recent example:

    Response to 'Burden of proof: A comprehensive review of the feasibility of 100% renewable-electricity systems'
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319895138_Response_to_'Burden_of_proof_A_comprehensive_review_of_the_feasibility_of_100_renewable-electricity_systems'
    …So what would it cost to maintain an open-cycle gas turbine (OCGT) fleet to cover, for example, Germany's peak demand of 80 GW? For the OCGT we take the cost assumptions from [117]: overnight investment cost of 400 €/kW, fixed operation and maintenance cost of 15 €/kW/a, lifetime of 30 years and discount rate of 10%. The latter two figures given an annuity of 10.6% of the overnight investment cost, so the annual cost per kW is 57.4 €/kW/a. For a peak load of 80 GW, assuming 90% availability of the OCGT, the total annual cost is therefore 5.1 billion €/a. Germany consumes more than 500 TWh/a, so this guaranteed capacity costs less than 0.01 €/kWh. This is just 7.3% of total spending on electricity in Germany (69.4 billion € in 2015 [118]).
    We are not suggesting that Germany builds an OCGT fleet to cover its peak demand. This is a worst-case rhetorical thought experiment, assuming that no biomass, hydroelectricity, demand response, imports or medium-term storage can be activated, yet it is still low cost.
    Solutions that use storage that is already in the system are likely to be even lower cost. However, some OCGT capacity could also be attractive for other reasons: it is a flexible source of upward reserve power and it can be used for other ancillary services such as inertia provision, fault current, voltage regulation and black-starting the system. A clutch can even be put on the shaft to decouple the generator from the turbine and allow the generator to operate in synchronous compensator mode, which means it can also provide many ancillary services without burning gas…
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Selebian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    A few years ago in a council ward in County Durham the Tory candidate got zero votes.

    In 2005 GE, Catherine Taylor-Dawson got 1 in Cardiff North.

    Please look at Wikipedia for verification, I can't link from this non sophisticated phone!
    Beeb report
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/wales/4523583.stm
    (Badly written as the second paragraph suggests she won only one vote across four constituencies, although later clarified)

    Aside: I didn't know you could stand in multiple seats. What happens if you win more than one?
    Good question, and one which I can't immediately find an answer for. I think that you have to choose one and the others all get immediate by-elections, but that could just be what I expect would happen rather than having any actual knowledge about it.

    I did learn in my reading that in India, candidates are limited to standing in two constituencies, which strikes me as strange - if limiting it, why not limit it to one?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,029
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking back at recent by-elections, someone only got 3 votes in North Shropshire, which a 'citation needed' comment claims is the lowest since 1918, beating out previous lows of 5.

    Lol how do you manage only 3 votes :D
    The book of heroic failures (which incidentally includes reference to and a quote by the author Sean Thomas) makes reference to an election in North Dakota where no one voted for any of the six candidates, not even the candidates or the people at the ballot station, which is some achievement - lots of places have no candidates put forward and so no election, but that goes the extra mile.
    I seem to remember a story of an election in Poland in the early years of democracy in which a candidate sportingly voted for his opponent (not something I've ever come across, but traditions differ), who subsequently won by one vote to zero.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
    He might be right. It seems unlikely but not impossible. There are lots of edge cases (Scots who move to Europe, for instance) when it comes to pensions that will have to be negotiated so perhaps they will be bundled together. It might also depend on whether the split is between Scotland and E,W,NI or between Scotland and the United Kingdom.
    But how do you square that with the next General Election campaign where the largest opposition party will turn round and say that Scottish Pension money could be spent on social care here and that is what we are going to do?

    It just doesn't work regardless of how the Scottish can hope it does
    It'd be part of a wider agreement of payments from the new Scottish exchequer to rUK, anyway, assuming an agreed exit, so disrupting part of it would not be in anyone's wider interests.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,630
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    I’ve posted on this before, but I strongly agree that this should be uncontested. Well done to the lds and labour. Our democracy must outright reject political violence and we simply cannot incentivise the murdering of MP’s in any way.

    What is wrong with that, is this: the true nutters in politics hate the wrong subtype of their own party much more than they hate the opposition. You therefore create opportunities for Corbynites to murder sitting Blairites safe in the knowledge that at best a Corbynite might get in, at worst at least Tory scum won't; and vice versa for soft vs hardline Brexiteer Tory nutters. So the argument is worthless.
    Also because it's up to the voters to decide if the party deserves to be represented at all, given that the person for whom they actually voted is not there any more.
    I think it is a misplaced attempt at niceness, done for the best of motivations. But the person doing the killing has already affected our democratic system by their action (whether they had a political motivation or not), and I see no problem in saying 'We will not let this affect us having our political debates, we shall contest'. I get why they don't do that now, but I don't think the alternative view, to contest, should be seen as unreasonable.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,056
    Statements from the various candidates here, except the 2 independents, one of whom has withdrawn.

    Can't say that they tempt me to Southend!

    https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/sir-david-amess-southend-west-6561112

    From the Psychedelic Movement candidate:

    "The title of Aldous Huxley’s second book on the psychedelic experience was “Heaven & Hell,” I think that equally sums up Southend. Southend is sunsets on the Thames and its dog-mess on the pavements. Acid-trips in Belfairs Wood and knife-crime on the seafront.

    Bike-rides along the Brook and a football-team that wrecked itself through delusions of grandeur. Boutique shops and corporate eye ache adverts. Southend has some of the nicest people in the world and plenty of aggressive morons. We’re candyfloss and we’re phlegm. We’re witches and witch-trials."
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,557

    Cookie said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
    He might be right. It seems unlikely but not impossible. There are lots of edge cases (Scots who move to Europe, for instance) when it comes to pensions that will have to be negotiated so perhaps they will be bundled together. It might also depend on whether the split is between Scotland and E,W,NI or between Scotland and the United Kingdom.

    Cookie said:

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    ISTR @malcolmg is very firmly and typically colourfully of the view that the UK government will pay his pension post-indy.
    He might be right. It seems unlikely but not impossible. There are lots of edge cases (Scots who move to Europe, for instance) when it comes to pensions that will have to be negotiated so perhaps they will be bundled together. It might also depend on whether the split is between Scotland and E,W,NI or between Scotland and the United Kingdom.
    It will all come down to the settlement after we vote for independence. My expectation is that rUK would not welch on its liabilities or would compensate up front for them. I am not of the opinion that they will wish to be International pariah's despite the protestations of the unionist frothers on here.
    At worst once trident is impounded they will see sense.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,882
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    Yep, this makes sense. Either rUK pays for the pension (theoretically) built up or a transfer of an appropriate amount of the wodge of (non-existent, but notional) cash happens to pay an identified group that will then receive their pensions from Scottish Government. The former is probably simpler, in many ways (otherwise, how do you do it - based on residence when tax was paid? current residence? future citizenship?).

    But a bit of a non-issue, surely, in that it would all be part of the negotiations about divvying up reserves and debts. Take on the pension liability and Scotland gets more of the reserves. A negotiating tool depending on each side's expectation of the future liability weighed against immediate cash.

    I'd both be sorry to see Scotland go and horrified at the time and opportuity cost of the negotiations at least from a rUK perspective (as I see no real upside for rUK from a break up of the Union) but the reality is that all this will be dealt with in the negotiations.
  • Options
    Rishi live on Sky
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    News too important to miss FPT

    Oh no, not only are they looking to drop Modern Pentathlon from the Olympics, but even if it gets back in they are removing the most hilarious part of it, the showjumping! Seeing horses refuse to jump was great entertainment.

    (Boxing and Weightlifting are also at risk because they are dodgy AF)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59160490

    Tbh I'm slightly worried about Youtube-trained kids jumping off concrete ramps on bikes and skateboards.
    Relax, John. It's just Darwinism at work.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,142
    edited February 2022
    eek said:

    If the Clown is cynical enough to collapse the GFA to get letters to Brady rescinded, Mrs May and her chums need to get their letter in.

    How does collapsing the GFA result in letters being rescinded?
    Because the Irish Sea border is an issue for the pro- pure Brexiteers, as is Unionist sovereignty. The first letters into Brady were ERG members.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    Yep, this makes sense. Either rUK pays for the pension (theoretically) built up or a transfer of an appropriate amount of the wodge of (non-existent, but notional) cash happens to pay an identified group that will then receive their pensions from Scottish Government. The former is probably simpler, in many ways (otherwise, how do you do it - based on residence when tax was paid? current residence? future citizenship?).

    But a bit of a non-issue, surely, in that it would all be part of the negotiations about divvying up reserves and debts. Take on the pension liability and Scotland gets more of the reserves. A negotiating tool depending on each side's expectation of the future liability weighed against immediate cash.

    I'd both be sorry to see Scotland go and horrified at the time and opportuity cost of the negotiations at least from a rUK perspective (as I see no real upside for rUK from a break up of the Union) but the reality is that all this will be dealt with in the negotiations.
    Hmm, unless I miss soemthing, the other option is to regard the Scot with a pension credit up to independence day as having personally emigrated to an independent Scotland just as to Australia or Spain and being paid individually. Not least cos what happens if the Scot then moves to Oz, or Spain? Anything after independence is SG's problem. BVut, as you say, negotiations.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,056
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    Yep, this makes sense. Either rUK pays for the pension (theoretically) built up or a transfer of an appropriate amount of the wodge of (non-existent, but notional) cash happens to pay an identified group that will then receive their pensions from Scottish Government. The former is probably simpler, in many ways (otherwise, how do you do it - based on residence when tax was paid? current residence? future citizenship?).

    But a bit of a non-issue, surely, in that it would all be part of the negotiations about divvying up reserves and debts. Take on the pension liability and Scotland gets more of the reserves. A negotiating tool depending on each side's expectation of the future liability weighed against immediate cash.

    I'd both be sorry to see Scotland go and horrified at the time and opportuity cost of the negotiations at least from a rUK perspective (as I see no real upside for rUK from a break up of the Union) but the reality is that all this will be dealt with in the negotiations.
    Yes, clearly it would all be part of the divorce agreement. Either pensions paid* or part of a wider discussion of splitting assets and liabilities.

    *wasn't this what happened when the Irish Free State got independence?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,874
    On topic, I expect a very very low turnout today in Southend. I would expect some people will turn out to honour the life of David Amess (as they did for Jo Cox), but otherwise why bother. Disaffected Tories who find far right parties distasteful are just going to sit on their hands.
  • Options

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out - my standard position is that the absolutism from both extremes will not be what happens.

    If we assume a divorce rather than a secession then it seems reasonable to assume that the division of assets would include a pension provision. Whether that is a legacy pension payment from rUK to Scottish pensioners or a value transfer of their pension contributions, it would be something.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,944
    The Tories should win this but they aren't the value and a couple of big price challengers have caught my eye. Ben Downton, who is standing for "common sense", a clever pitch for these times that most ordinary people find utterly incomprehensible, and Jason Pilley, who is actually from Southend and will be known and liked by many of those voting. No bet.
  • Options
    FPT
    Mr. B, not properly. I had a £1 free bet which I stuck on Ferrari at 8, but given the substantial rule changes I'm not inclined to bet so early.

    Interesting note on the penalty points.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    Yep, this makes sense. Either rUK pays for the pension (theoretically) built up or a transfer of an appropriate amount of the wodge of (non-existent, but notional) cash happens to pay an identified group that will then receive their pensions from Scottish Government. The former is probably simpler, in many ways (otherwise, how do you do it - based on residence when tax was paid? current residence? future citizenship?).

    But a bit of a non-issue, surely, in that it would all be part of the negotiations about divvying up reserves and debts. Take on the pension liability and Scotland gets more of the reserves. A negotiating tool depending on each side's expectation of the future liability weighed against immediate cash.

    I'd both be sorry to see Scotland go and horrified at the time and opportuity cost of the negotiations at least from a rUK perspective (as I see no real upside for rUK from a break up of the Union) but the reality is that all this will be dealt with in the negotiations.
    Hmm, unless I miss soemthing, the other option is to regard the Scot with a pension credit up to independence day as having personally emigrated to an independent Scotland just as to Australia or Spain and being paid individually. Not least cos what happens if the Scot then moves to Oz, or Spain? Anything after independence is SG's problem. BVut, as you say, negotiations.

    Isn’t the difference that the person emigrating to Australia etc is still a citizen of the U.K? That’s not the case for someone in an independent Scotland, so I don’t see how they are comparable situations.
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    Mr. Pioneers, a division of assets including pensions? I'm surprised the Scots would be so generous they'd offer to part-fund the pensions of the country they'd just left, but it would certainly help foster warm relations.
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    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    I don't think it's just civility, it's also about incentives. If you let murdering politicians potentially change policy, you encourage people to murder politicians. Politicians prefer not to be murdered, so preserving the norm that you don't contest these races is in their rational self-interest.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,056
    kinabalu said:

    The Tories should win this but they aren't the value and a couple of big price challengers have caught my eye. Ben Downton, who is standing for "common sense", a clever pitch for these times that most ordinary people find utterly incomprehensible, and Jason Pilley, who is actually from Southend and will be known and liked by many of those voting. No bet.

    I cannot find a market for second place. Is anyone running one?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,289
    Anything for hard working Band E homeowners ?
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    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    https://twitter.com/scotfax/status/1489118123420749824

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    Labour MSP Paul Sweeney said: "National Insurance contributions are also a precondition for accessing Jobseekers' Allowance - is he suggesting that the rest of the UK will pay that in separate Scottish state too?

    "State pensions are funded from current state revenue. This sophistry would make the Vote Leave campaign blush."

    Donald Cameron, Scottish Conservative spokesman on the constitution, said: "For such senior SNP figures, including the Finance Secretary, to be suggesting pension rights will be unaffected in an independent Scotland is astonishing and blatantly inaccurate.

    "It is clear that the SNP are all too happy to spread misinformation as they ramp up their plans for another divisive referendum."


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-pensions-row-snp-insists-26125410
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    eekeek Posts: 26,014

    eek said:

    If the Clown is cynical enough to collapse the GFA to get letters to Brady rescinded, Mrs May and her chums need to get their letter in.

    How does collapsing the GFA result in letters being rescinded?
    Because the Irish Sea border is an issue for the pro- pure Brexiteers, as is Unionist sovereignty. The first letters into Brady were ERG members.
    But nothing has changed - all that has happened is someone in NI has decided to play games.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,944
    Foxy said:

    Statements from the various candidates here, except the 2 independents, one of whom has withdrawn.

    Can't say that they tempt me to Southend!

    https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/sir-david-amess-southend-west-6561112

    From the Psychedelic Movement candidate:

    "The title of Aldous Huxley’s second book on the psychedelic experience was “Heaven & Hell,” I think that equally sums up Southend. Southend is sunsets on the Thames and its dog-mess on the pavements. Acid-trips in Belfairs Wood and knife-crime on the seafront.

    Bike-rides along the Brook and a football-team that wrecked itself through delusions of grandeur. Boutique shops and corporate eye ache adverts. Southend has some of the nicest people in the world and plenty of aggressive morons. We’re candyfloss and we’re phlegm. We’re witches and witch-trials."

    Ah yes, that's Pilley. He'd be where my pencil settles, I think.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,168

    FPT

    Andy_JS said:

    The John Hopkins study is being reported in the mainstream media despite being accused of being propaganda by supporters of the Great Barrington Declaration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/02/02/trusting-people-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/


    ... and ...

    "... This finding implies that a combination of interventions related to a strict lockdown environment and public awareness (such as closures of schools and workplaces, cancellations of public events, travel restrictions, keeping the public informed, testing and contact tracing) was most
    likely a more effective measure of slowing down the spread of the virus and the related number of deaths."


    I doubt that those clinging to what it says have read it or care about these issues. It's just useful for people to have an outwardly credible response for the "research" method of typing into Google "what I want to be true"
    I don't think anyone doubts that putting in place 'lockdown' measures reduces the spread of the virus. The issue is whether you are simply slowing the spread of a virus that people will eventually get anyway. Now we have vaccines and a milder variant so Denmark may come out of this better than Sweden but the key point of the GBD was that the harms of lockdown were greater than the virus. Questionable but that is a different point.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,986

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    First as the Tories will be tonight but only because Labour and the Lib Dems are way more honourable than others we could mention.

    Nothing less honourable then depriving the electorate of democratic choice as an exercise in flouncy point making. This nonsense must now cease
    I know its tragic that Ames was murdered, and this leads to some suggesting that no-one should contest the by-election. But if he had died in an accident there would be no such qualms. And if he had died during auto-erotic asphyxiation and been discovered thus, then again, there would be no such qualms.

    Its awful for the murdered MP and his family and friends. But the by-election is about who represents the constituency, not how sorry we all are. It should be contested. By all means do it with civility (as always should be the case) but make your case.
    I don't think it's just civility, it's also about incentives. If you let murdering politicians potentially change policy, you encourage people to murder politicians. Politicians prefer not to be murdered, so preserving the norm that you don't contest these races is in their rational self-interest.
    I don't believe murdering a politician is a logical choice - its is something that mentally ill people do, so I don't buy the argument that 'incentives' would lead to more MP's being murdered. Far better to focus on mental health and trying to stop these people before things go too far.
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    The contrast between Sunak's clear outline of policy at despatch box compared to Johnson's blather and stumbling bluster is very sharp.
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    pingping Posts: 3,804
    £150 CT discount + £200 loan via energy bill
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    Carnyx said:

    No idea who the Tory candidate is, but if they proclaim their victory as a valedictory moment for Liar I will have to laugh loudly.

    I saw something on twitter which was a very generous endorsement of the candidate from Sir David Amess's widow. I think that will be delivered door-to-door. Should be enough to reassure core Tory vote to actually vote.
    Should never have been permitted. Party political speech at the funeral, effectively. How on earth can they now morally expect a free run?

    Hard agree, with all the piety flying about don’t think this is whiter than white. I suppose they can play the it’s what Sir Dave would have wanted card..
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,126
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SNP leadership still doubling down on assertion that you Brits will be paying for Scots' pensions after Indy.

    Be interested if our resident PB SNPers are sold on this. Don't think they've commented so far?

    Don't have a lot of time for Gorgeous George but enjoyed this tweet:


    George Galloway
    @georgegalloway
    ·
    33m
    If #Scots think #England will pay their pension in the event of #independence then no greater testimony to the collapse of Scotland’s once famous education system could exist. Not to mention our once infamous reputation of a tight-grasp of monetary matters.

    It is not surprising at all

    (a) HMG has always said it's a contributory scheme - you pay in, you get
    (b) HMT said it would cover HMG obligations in the events of independence
    (c) in 2014 HMG, I think the DHSS or whatever dept dealt with pensions, was confirming the position when asked.
    (d) we're all familiar with former UK citizens being paid their OAP after they emigrate to another country

    Of course,it's a Ponzi job, and in reality negotiations would quite possibly trump that. But HMG did make promises more generally.
    Yep, this makes sense. Either rUK pays for the pension (theoretically) built up or a transfer of an appropriate amount of the wodge of (non-existent, but notional) cash happens to pay an identified group that will then receive their pensions from Scottish Government. The former is probably simpler, in many ways (otherwise, how do you do it - based on residence when tax was paid? current residence? future citizenship?).

    But a bit of a non-issue, surely, in that it would all be part of the negotiations about divvying up reserves and debts. Take on the pension liability and Scotland gets more of the reserves. A negotiating tool depending on each side's expectation of the future liability weighed against immediate cash.

    I'd both be sorry to see Scotland go and horrified at the time and opportuity cost of the negotiations at least from a rUK perspective (as I see no real upside for rUK from a break up of the Union) but the reality is that all this will be dealt with in the negotiations.
    Hmm, unless I miss soemthing, the other option is to regard the Scot with a pension credit up to independence day as having personally emigrated to an independent Scotland just as to Australia or Spain and being paid individually. Not least cos what happens if the Scot then moves to Oz, or Spain? Anything after independence is SG's problem. BVut, as you say, negotiations.

    Isn’t the difference that the person emigrating to Australia etc is still a citizen of the U.K? That’s not the case for someone in an independent Scotland, so I don’t see how they are comparable situations.
    The Australian situation is in a sense irrelevant as we would be dealing with a new situation here (well not in the last 100 years). It depends how citizenship is dealt with - some people may want to become dual nationals, and quite a few people will be so by right anyway (e.g. residency and/or birth/marriage).
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    Rebate for Council Tax A-D

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,557
    Carnyx said:

    To update a matter we were discussing recently: Raith Rovers has backtracked on signing Mr Goodwillie which led to the withdrawal of sponsorship, "the resignation of directors, club officials and the women's captain" while "Raith TV also vowed to stop broadcasting the men’s team’s matches, while the women’s team has sought to distance itself entirely from the men’s outfit."

    Chairman: “I can therefore confirm that, following a meeting of the Raith Rovers board, the player will not be selected by Raith Rovers and we will enter into discussions with the player regarding his contractual position."

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19895851.raith-rovers-fan-raises-10-000-rape-crisis-scotland/
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19896261.david-goodwillie-raith-rovers-apologise-signing-rapist/?ref=ebbn

    The club must be run by idiots, make a horse's rear end of it and now compound by having to pay him a shedload to go away. Has Brown got Bozo involved with advising them.
This discussion has been closed.