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Batley & Spen – the most significant 2021 by-election? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Benpointer


    “A real, if rather odd, person I suspect. A covid extremist - not surprising they exist in both sides of the spectrum.

    At the risk of generalising, I also suspect extreme lockdowners are more likely to be Remainers and extreme anti-vaxxers are more likely to be Brexiteers.

    I've no evidence to support that speculation (it would be interesting to see some polling) but my logic is that Remainers were more risk averse on average, Brexiteers more stupid.

    (Sorry about that last sentence, I just couldn't help myself 😂)”

    ++++


    No offence taken, old sport, and I think you’re right.

    It’s risk aversion. Remoaners are pathetic cowards scared of anything new, and deeply in love with bureaucratic control of everyone, of course they adore Lockdown

    Some do mate, I agree. Always a mistake to over-generalise though.

    For example, I think most Brexiters are stupid but there are plenty on here who are clearly very smart (if misguided).
    Correction: most PEOPLE are stupid. Remember the average IQ - by definition - is 100. So half the nation - half of humanity - has a sub-100 IQ. They will all appear stupid to a smart PB-er

    On top of those, you have the apparently clever, educated people, who also turn out to be as dim as all dandy-fuck. eg The Remoaners. Who expected Professor A C Grayling to reveal himself as a dribbling moron? But so it is. And there are millions like him
    IQ measures how good you are at IQ tests and nothing more
    My take is they are a bit more than that. They test a capacity for certain traits which many people associate with intelligence e.g. logical thinking and problem solving. But that is a narrow subset of what one might think of as general intelligence e.g. they don't measure any sort of creative abilities.
    Nor indeed "soft skills". Broadly speaking the ability to get on with folk. Which is arguably just as, or even more, important for many occupations.
    Or indeed for a happy existence.
    Yes that’s fair. Indeed there is evidence that extremely high IQs are associated with autism spectrum disorders, ie a severe lack of social skills and inability to empathize. Einstein and Newton have both been categorised as “autistic” (FWIW - and NB both were still spectacularly successful scientists)

    I once read some fascinating research on the IQs of Nobel prize winners in science. The conclusion was that the ideal (and most frequent) IQs were in the 140-160 range. That’s the sweet spot where you are extremely smart but still likely to have good social skills - and you’re able to empathise and build a team around you. Which leads to prizes

    Above 160 people get increasingly eccentric (or they so appear to everyone else) and become so clever they can’t figure out why regular humans do what they do - like Spock on Star Trek
    Hence we have also likely never had an election winning PM with an IQ over 160
    Wasn’t Harold Wilson enormously smart? As in a brilliant Oxford First in Maths or something? He might have troubled the 160 line
    Oxford's youngest ever don iirc.

    Super smart.
    You can make a case for Thatcher too

    Successful scientist
    Successful lawyer
    Super successful politician
    And doing all of that as a grammar school girl in a sexist era
    Thatcher got a second class degree, not even a first. She was bright and sharp but she was not over 160 IQ super intelligent
    I don't think she had much emotional intelligence either. She was famously poor at humour and couldn't empathise with her political opponents, not even within her own party.

    This was the achilies heal that ended her premiership, her arrogant disregard for the Scots, those on the sharp end of the Poll Tax or even those within her own party who wanted a One Nation approach. Hence her defenestration by her own party, despite a comfortable majority and 2 years off an election.
    Wouldn't Mrs T. fit into Leon's (in my opinion stereotypical, flawed, and simplistic) autism analysis?
    Yes, but I think that just shows his simplistic understanding of ASD. Lots of people lack EQ or empathy without being ASD, ASD is found at all intelligence levels, but lower mean than the general population, and there are plenty of superintelligent people with good people skills.
    Oh do fuck off, doc. I have done endless research on ASD, for a side project. I probably know a lot more than you. And I always make sure I actually read the first line of a paper I am going to quote, especially if it turns out that line is going to defeat my entire argument
    Although on this occasion your analysis is more sympathetic than usual, nonetheless you once again have to refer to anyone who is somewhat unusual as autistic. Your regular thesis regarding ASD is stereotypical, hackneyed uniformed and quite frankly offensive (and no I didn't off topic you, so I am clearly not alone).

    Life for many people on the spectrum is particularly difficult without uninformed bollocks from people like yourself serving to make matters worse. Even when autistic people succeed others expect them to fail. As an example, when my son passed his driving test on the first time of asking he was issued with a one year driving license because he had reported his autism on his original application form. After intervention from Alun Cairns that was resolved, but it serves to remind me that when people like you offload your autism prejudice it has consequences.

    Time for me to bugger off and calm down.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Not my type either, at all. Not remotely. And yet it is fascinating how many powerful, important men fell under her spell.

    Geoffrey Howe was said to be totally smitten, to an embarrassing degree. Ironic that he finally brought her down. Perhaps he felt spurned

    I remember hearing a story about the time America invaded Grenada, Her Majesty was furious and so was Maggie.

    She gave Reagan a diatribe that lasted for ages on the phone, a couple of Reagan's aides were also listening in, they were very angry (nobody talks to the President that way, no matter if she's our strongest ally) and a bit turned on a woman could be that assertive.
    Excellent gossip

    It is insane that lefty feminists still sneer at her. She is the ultimate heroine. A terrific role model for any ambitious girl
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Benpointer


    “A real, if rather odd, person I suspect. A covid extremist - not surprising they exist in both sides of the spectrum.

    At the risk of generalising, I also suspect extreme lockdowners are more likely to be Remainers and extreme anti-vaxxers are more likely to be Brexiteers.

    I've no evidence to support that speculation (it would be interesting to see some polling) but my logic is that Remainers were more risk averse on average, Brexiteers more stupid.

    (Sorry about that last sentence, I just couldn't help myself 😂)”

    ++++


    No offence taken, old sport, and I think you’re right.

    It’s risk aversion. Remoaners are pathetic cowards scared of anything new, and deeply in love with bureaucratic control of everyone, of course they adore Lockdown

    Some do mate, I agree. Always a mistake to over-generalise though.

    For example, I think most Brexiters are stupid but there are plenty on here who are clearly very smart (if misguided).
    Correction: most PEOPLE are stupid. Remember the average IQ - by definition - is 100. So half the nation - half of humanity - has a sub-100 IQ. They will all appear stupid to a smart PB-er

    On top of those, you have the apparently clever, educated people, who also turn out to be as dim as all dandy-fuck. eg The Remoaners. Who expected Professor A C Grayling to reveal himself as a dribbling moron? But so it is. And there are millions like him
    IQ measures how good you are at IQ tests and nothing more
    My take is they are a bit more than that. They test a capacity for certain traits which many people associate with intelligence e.g. logical thinking and problem solving. But that is a narrow subset of what one might think of as general intelligence e.g. they don't measure any sort of creative abilities.
    Nor indeed "soft skills". Broadly speaking the ability to get on with folk. Which is arguably just as, or even more, important for many occupations.
    Or indeed for a happy existence.
    Yes that’s fair. Indeed there is evidence that extremely high IQs are associated with autism spectrum disorders, ie a severe lack of social skills and inability to empathize. Einstein and Newton have both been categorised as “autistic” (FWIW - and NB both were still spectacularly successful scientists)

    I once read some fascinating research on the IQs of Nobel prize winners in science. The conclusion was that the ideal (and most frequent) IQs were in the 140-160 range. That’s the sweet spot where you are extremely smart but still likely to have good social skills - and you’re able to empathise and build a team around you. Which leads to prizes

    Above 160 people get increasingly eccentric (or they so appear to everyone else) and become so clever they can’t figure out why regular humans do what they do - like Spock on Star Trek
    Hence we have also likely never had an election winning PM with an IQ over 160
    Wasn’t Harold Wilson enormously smart? As in a brilliant Oxford First in Maths or something? He might have troubled the 160 line
    Oxford's youngest ever don iirc.

    Super smart.
    You can make a case for Thatcher too

    Successful scientist
    Successful lawyer
    Super successful politician
    And doing all of that as a grammar school girl in a sexist era
    Thatcher got a second class degree, not even a first. She was bright and sharp but she was not over 160 IQ super intelligent
    I don't think she had much emotional intelligence either. She was famously poor at humour and couldn't empathise with her political opponents, not even within her own party.

    This was the achilies heal that ended her premiership, her arrogant disregard for the Scots, those on the sharp end of the Poll Tax or even those within her own party who wanted a One Nation approach. Hence her defenestration by her own party, despite a comfortable majority and 2 years off an election.
    Wouldn't Mrs T. fit into Leon's (in my opinion stereotypical, flawed, and simplistic) autism analysis?
    Yes, but I think that just shows his simplistic understanding of ASD. Lots of people lack EQ or empathy without being ASD, ASD is found at all intelligence levels, but lower mean than the general population, and there are plenty of superintelligent people with good people skills.
    Oh do fuck off, doc. I have done endless research on ASD, for a side project. I probably know a lot more than you. And I always make sure I actually read the first line of a paper I am going to quote, especially if it turns out that line is going to defeat my entire argument
    Although on this occasion your analysis is more sympathetic than usual, nonetheless you once again have to refer to anyone who is somewhat unusual as autistic. Your regular thesis regarding ASD is stereotypical, hackneyed uniformed and quite frankly offensive (and no I didn't off topic you, so I am clearly not alone).

    Life for many people on the spectrum is particularly difficult without uninformed bollocks from people like yourself serving to make matters worse. Even when autistic people succeed others expect them to fail. As an example, when my son passed his driving test on the first time of asking he was issued with a one year driving license because he had reported his autism on his original application form. After intervention from Alun Cairns that was resolved, but it serves to remind me that when people like you offload your autism prejudice it has consequences.

    Time for me to bugger off and calm down.
    It does not occur to you that I might have very close personal experience of ASD? Hence my pretty deep knowledge?

    You are clearly upset, so I will not argue this further. But I will continue to use the word "autistic" advisedly and carefully when I perceive it: in politicians or others
  • IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Didn't take long for the first Maggie tumescence of 2022 I see.

    For some PBers it’s almost a hair trigger thing, ready to spring ‘up’ at the drop of a hat.
    Oversharing...
    Outside the weird cult that is the Scottish Conservatives, up here we're more an observer of the phenomenon than an indulger in it. There's even a work of art..




  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    A Tory minister has referred himself for investigation after taking cash from a secretive organisation that does not name its members.

    Pensions chief Guy Opperman took the cash sum from a group called the London and Northern Dining Club in October.

    But the Mirror can reveal the club is linked to two men who have hosted events where Mr Opperman has given speeches.

    Ministers are forbidden from accepting payment for speeches on topics linked to their role in government.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-refers-himself-investigation-25830332

    I would greatly appreciate a Hexham by-election as a New Year gift.
    New MP would be nice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2022
    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy-OUG2ZXJw

    I didn't know anybody was strictly been asked to go into "shielding" this time around? I thought in fact Witty / Vallance said the opposite, there would be no such approach.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    The logical alternative is to die with it, which I agree would be suboptimal but has already happened to a great many people.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    If he was really angry about it you could type: Livid Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    But he might be happier in Pitcairn.
    What about the Island in the Loch on the Island in Loch Maree?

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    ...now Boris has been busted for holding Christmas parties during the 2020 holidays.
  • I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    Perhaps they should have asked Max Clifford for advice...
  • I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2022
    ydoethur said:

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    Perhaps they should have asked Max Clifford for advice...
    I honestly don't know why he did it. There is batting on a sticky wicket and there is facing Brett Lee at his pomp from 18 yards with a mini bat.....he seemed to be trying to argue that all the victims definitely weren't lying, but their memories had become extremely confused and despite his sister being in the company of Epstein all the time, she never actually did anything or knew anything.
  • ydoethur said:

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    Perhaps they should have asked Max Clifford for advice...
    Only via a ouija board.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    Perhaps they should have asked Max Clifford for advice...
    Only via a ouija board.
    Probably would still have been better advice than Prince Andrew got!
  • I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
    I thought Succession was supposed to be loosely based on Murdochs?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    I think it's leadership positioning. He's been tagged as a lockdown ultra alongside Gove which will guarantee he won't get the leadership.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    This is reminiscent of the evolution of the Climate Change debate.
    It doesn't exist.
    OK it might but it isn't a problem.
    OK it is, but it would be too disruptive and costly to fix.
    It's too late now anyway. We just have to put up with it.
  • I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
    I thought Succession was supposed to be loosely based on Murdochs?
    Plot/events wise a little, but not the people.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    IshmaelZ said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    If he was really angry about it you could type: Livid Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid
    Nice

    If he gets really REALLY angry about this brutal new flu-Covid crossbreed being irresponsibly dramatised in a children's movie then you could have the headline


    Livid Sajid Javid's Rabid Kidvid Covid Hybrid
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,425
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    But he might be happier in Pitcairn.
    What about the Island in the Loch on the Island in Loch Maree?

    You leave those beautiful islands alone.

    There are some rare birds on them and I don't trust Royals with shotguns.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    rcs1000 said:

    Book recommendation:

    Hitler's American Gamble.

    It's the story of why Germany declared war on the US. And it's one of those books that completely changes your understanding of a period of history.

    In short: Hitler was desperate to stop the flow of lend-lease to Russia (and to a lesser extent to the UK). He was therefore constantly pushing Japan to declare war on the the US, because he felt that that would result in supplies drying up to his European opponents. (In 1942, 40% of Russian armor came via lend-lease.) The cost of this was that he was obligated to declare war on the US: Japan didn't want to be left on their own facing the US.

    Well worth a read.

    Would have been better to have the Japanese invade Siberia, I guess. But I can see how that explanation makes sense of what otherwise seems a self-defeating bit of vanity.
    The Japanese Army wanted to invade Siberia, but the Navy wanted to "look south" and invade the East Indies, Philippines, etc.
    I thought the Japanese were thoroughly spanked by General Zhukov and others in the Soviet-Japanese conflict in ~1939, to the extent that a peace agreement was enforced on Japan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_border_conflicts
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    But he might be happier in Pitcairn.
    What about the Island in the Loch on the Island in Loch Maree?

    You leave those beautiful islands alone.

    There are some rare birds on them and I don't trust Royals with shotguns.
    Particularly not Andrew, who is famous for always chasing birds.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428

    A Tory minister has referred himself for investigation after taking cash from a secretive organisation that does not name its members.

    Pensions chief Guy Opperman took the cash sum from a group called the London and Northern Dining Club in October.

    But the Mirror can reveal the club is linked to two men who have hosted events where Mr Opperman has given speeches.

    Ministers are forbidden from accepting payment for speeches on topics linked to their role in government.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-refers-himself-investigation-25830332

    Tut tut Mr Opperman
  • Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    But he might be happier in Pitcairn.
    What about the Island in the Loch on the Island in Loch Maree?

    You leave those beautiful islands alone.

    There are some rare birds on them and I don't trust Royals with shotguns.
    Or birds.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    But he might be happier in Pitcairn.
    What about the Island in the Loch on the Island in Loch Maree?

    You leave those beautiful islands alone.

    There are some rare birds on them and I don't trust Royals with shotguns.
    He could have a tower like Rapunzel.
  • MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Book recommendation:

    Hitler's American Gamble.

    It's the story of why Germany declared war on the US. And it's one of those books that completely changes your understanding of a period of history.

    In short: Hitler was desperate to stop the flow of lend-lease to Russia (and to a lesser extent to the UK). He was therefore constantly pushing Japan to declare war on the the US, because he felt that that would result in supplies drying up to his European opponents. (In 1942, 40% of Russian armor came via lend-lease.) The cost of this was that he was obligated to declare war on the US: Japan didn't want to be left on their own facing the US.

    Well worth a read.

    Would have been better to have the Japanese invade Siberia, I guess. But I can see how that explanation makes sense of what otherwise seems a self-defeating bit of vanity.
    The Japanese Army wanted to invade Siberia, but the Navy wanted to "look south" and invade the East Indies, Philippines, etc.
    I thought the Japanese were thoroughly spanked by General Zhukov and others in the Soviet-Japanese conflict in ~1939, to the extent that a peace agreement was enforced on Japan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_border_conflicts
    Well, that was one reason why the Navy got the Emperor's favour!
  • The BEST Premier League Showboats of 2021!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daieVLZrbZE

    I don't think when you watch the games from the standard camera view you quite realise how much of this supreme quality goes on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    I think it's leadership positioning. He's been tagged as a lockdown ultra alongside Gove which will guarantee he won't get the leadership.
    I believe you are correct Max, but whether one is a lockdown dove or hawk, Government based on jockeying for position post Johnson is very concerning. A populist auction to win the votes of Chope, Bridgen and Philip Davies- wow!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2022
    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?

    Alpha Men Assemble?
    Good grief.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?

    Surely this is the only excuse we need to load up veterinary dart guns with AZ and just hit them where it will hurt - in the fantasy?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Couple of remarkable videos here


    Sturgeon's Stasi apparently shutting down a NYE party


    https://twitter.com/EOTILLOGICAL/status/1477319572311224321?s=20


    https://twitter.com/gmacman_gmac/status/1477346597969219587?s=20


    Actually feel a tiny bit sorry for the cops. Enforcing controversial if not foolish restrictions
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    I see France has banned plastic packaging for fruits and vegetables. I'm sure I read supermarket people say it would be impossible yet another similar country has just done it. This is an easy win for Boris and co, get rid of the packaging nightmare in supermarkets!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Evening all :)

    Vaguely on topic, it's probably fair to say had Labour lost Batley & Spen, it would have been an uncomfortable time for Starmer - oddly enough, all three main parties have had something from by-elections but they have reflected the changing political fortunes of the year.

    To be fair, I think Old Bexley & Sidcup is the most significant of the recent contests. The swing to Labour in a southern suburban seat was modest - if places like East Wickham, Falconwood and Sidcup had swung decisively to Labour, the panic in Conservative circles would have been obvious but we've yet to see that and indeed plenty of local by-elections in the north and midlands are still returning strong Conservative vote shares.

    For the LDs, winning Chesham & Amersham and North Shropshire keeps them in the game - it reminds the less politically aware they exist. The Conservatives will almost certainly regain North Shropshire at a future GE, Chesham & Amersham is less clear cut.

    We have the London local elections this year - in 2018, the vote split was Lab 44 Con 29 LD 13 and Green 8.5. There are challenges for the three main parties - the Conservatives might not find holding Barnet and Wandsworth so easy while Labour might be looking to make progress in Hillingdon. As for the LDs, they need to hold their three boroughs and I think they may be vulnerable in Kingston and Sutton.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    Leon said:

    @HYUFD

    "I also saw her briefly at a 2001 meeting of the Young International Democrats' Union and she still dominated the room, agreed and spoke with the same conviction and piercing eyes she had had as PM "


    ++++


    Of course, I might have perceived her as charismatic in 1993 simply because of who she was and what she had achieved. But the weird thing is, the word I would use to describer her charisma is "aura" - and the same word is also used in that description of her back in 1982 (when she hadn't done much).

    Lefty poet Al Alvarez:

    "She also had this dazzling aura of power around her. "

    Aura. From the Latin aura "breeze, wind, the upper air," from Greek aura "breath, cool breeze, air in motion," from PIE *aur-, from root *wer- (1) "to raise, lift, hold suspended.


    A peculiar but definite THING. Not sure I've seen it anywhere else. Maybe the pop singer Robbie Williams in his pomp. And Zinedine Zidane at an airport

    I used to go to a Tuesday evening poker game where Alvarez was an occasional player. He never struck me as particularly left wing. (Mind you, I didn't realise he was a poet until years later.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ydoethur said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    The logical alternative is to die with it, which I agree would be suboptimal but has already happened to a great many people.
    Very true, although my interpretation of Javid's commentary is that Boris Johnson can't be trusted to stick to Covid rules therefore Javid cannot make any without humiliating consequences and questions.
  • londoneyelondoneye Posts: 112
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    I think it's leadership positioning. He's been tagged as a lockdown ultra alongside Gove which will guarantee he won't get the leadership.
    mood music on further restrictions not good tonite. This from chris hopson of nhs providers

    https://twitter.com/ChrisCEOHopson/status/1477263146779910149?s=20
  • londoneyelondoneye Posts: 112
    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Leon said:

    Couple of remarkable videos here


    Sturgeon's Stasi apparently shutting down a NYE party


    https://twitter.com/EOTILLOGICAL/status/1477319572311224321?s=20


    https://twitter.com/gmacman_gmac/status/1477346597969219587?s=20


    Actually feel a tiny bit sorry for the cops. Enforcing controversial if not foolish restrictions

    How dare you criticise Sturgeon.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    @HYUFD

    "I also saw her briefly at a 2001 meeting of the Young International Democrats' Union and she still dominated the room, agreed and spoke with the same conviction and piercing eyes she had had as PM "


    ++++


    Of course, I might have perceived her as charismatic in 1993 simply because of who she was and what she had achieved. But the weird thing is, the word I would use to describer her charisma is "aura" - and the same word is also used in that description of her back in 1982 (when she hadn't done much).

    Lefty poet Al Alvarez:

    "She also had this dazzling aura of power around her. "

    Aura. From the Latin aura "breeze, wind, the upper air," from Greek aura "breath, cool breeze, air in motion," from PIE *aur-, from root *wer- (1) "to raise, lift, hold suspended.


    A peculiar but definite THING. Not sure I've seen it anywhere else. Maybe the pop singer Robbie Williams in his pomp. And Zinedine Zidane at an airport

    I used to go to a Tuesday evening poker game where Alvarez was an occasional player. He never struck me as particularly left wing. (Mind you, I didn't realise he was a poet until years later.)
    Yes, I think he was an associate of a group of poets who weren't particularly left-wing. Compared to the increasingly conservative Amis, Larkin and a couple of others who were at the Thatcher dinner, I think he was probably somewhat more moderate, though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    @HYUFD

    "I also saw her briefly at a 2001 meeting of the Young International Democrats' Union and she still dominated the room, agreed and spoke with the same conviction and piercing eyes she had had as PM "


    ++++


    Of course, I might have perceived her as charismatic in 1993 simply because of who she was and what she had achieved. But the weird thing is, the word I would use to describer her charisma is "aura" - and the same word is also used in that description of her back in 1982 (when she hadn't done much).

    Lefty poet Al Alvarez:

    "She also had this dazzling aura of power around her. "

    Aura. From the Latin aura "breeze, wind, the upper air," from Greek aura "breath, cool breeze, air in motion," from PIE *aur-, from root *wer- (1) "to raise, lift, hold suspended.


    A peculiar but definite THING. Not sure I've seen it anywhere else. Maybe the pop singer Robbie Williams in his pomp. And Zinedine Zidane at an airport

    I used to go to a Tuesday evening poker game where Alvarez was an occasional player. He never struck me as particularly left wing. (Mind you, I didn't realise he was a poet until years later.)
    Also, famously, one of the last people to speak to Sylvia Plath (it is alleged she tried to seduce him)

    He probably got more right wing as he aged. I hear it happens
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,425
    Leon said:

    Couple of remarkable videos here


    Sturgeon's Stasi apparently shutting down a NYE party


    https://twitter.com/EOTILLOGICAL/status/1477319572311224321?s=20


    https://twitter.com/gmacman_gmac/status/1477346597969219587?s=20


    Actually feel a tiny bit sorry for the cops. Enforcing controversial if not foolish restrictions

    I think this undermines the position. Like students dropping that fire extinguisher in the riots.
  • Macron's decision to fly the EU flag at the Arc de Triomphe de l'Étoile has triggered many.

    Qu'un #drapeau européen remplace le drapeau français sous l #ArcDeTriomphe est une faute. Le soldat inconnu n'est pas mort pour #Bruxelles. Les européistes comme #Macron réécrivent l'histoire et permettent aux pétainistes comme #Zemmour de se faire passer pour patriotes.

    https://twitter.com/LachaudB/status/1477284280577544198
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited January 2022

    Royal insiders admit that it might be difficult to persuade the monarch to take away the title of Duke of York. “It was the title held by her father, George VI, before he became king and she bestowed it on her favourite son,” the source said.

    The way it's going Andrew would be well advised to steer clear of Parisian tunnels for the time being! ;)

    Happy New Year PB :D
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Couple of remarkable videos here


    Sturgeon's Stasi apparently shutting down a NYE party


    https://twitter.com/EOTILLOGICAL/status/1477319572311224321?s=20


    https://twitter.com/gmacman_gmac/status/1477346597969219587?s=20


    Actually feel a tiny bit sorry for the cops. Enforcing controversial if not foolish restrictions

    I think this undermines the position. Like students dropping that fire extinguisher in the riots.
    It's not clear what is happening in the videos. Some are claiming the bar staff wanted a guy ejected and the cops just helped out. But that doesn't really gel with the way the police behave, let alone the half dozen police vans parked outside (to arrest one man for dancing?)

    Terrible optics for the Scottish police
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
    I thought Succession was supposed to be loosely based on Murdochs?
    Plot/events wise a little, but not the people.
    I dunno, I get Lachlan vibes from Kendall. And Elisabeth and Shiv have some similarities (not in terms of husbands or sexual behaviour). But Roman is definitely not James. And Connor is a comedic work of genius that I simply cannot place.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    @HYUFD

    "I also saw her briefly at a 2001 meeting of the Young International Democrats' Union and she still dominated the room, agreed and spoke with the same conviction and piercing eyes she had had as PM "


    ++++


    Of course, I might have perceived her as charismatic in 1993 simply because of who she was and what she had achieved. But the weird thing is, the word I would use to describer her charisma is "aura" - and the same word is also used in that description of her back in 1982 (when she hadn't done much).

    Lefty poet Al Alvarez:

    "She also had this dazzling aura of power around her. "

    Aura. From the Latin aura "breeze, wind, the upper air," from Greek aura "breath, cool breeze, air in motion," from PIE *aur-, from root *wer- (1) "to raise, lift, hold suspended.


    A peculiar but definite THING. Not sure I've seen it anywhere else. Maybe the pop singer Robbie Williams in his pomp. And Zinedine Zidane at an airport

    I used to go to a Tuesday evening poker game where Alvarez was an occasional player. He never struck me as particularly left wing. (Mind you, I didn't realise he was a poet until years later.)
    Also, famously, one of the last people to speak to Sylvia Plath (it is alleged she tried to seduce him)

    He probably got more right wing as he aged. I hear it happens
    You have summat to look forward to, l suppose.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    rcs1000 said:

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
    I thought Succession was supposed to be loosely based on Murdochs?
    Plot/events wise a little, but not the people.
    I dunno, I get Lachlan vibes from Kendall. And Elisabeth and Shiv have some similarities (not in terms of husbands or sexual behaviour). But Roman is definitely not James. And Connor is a comedic work of genius that I simply cannot place.
    As I understand it they have blended 3 or 4 very rich, well known, ultra high profile families
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,302
    edited January 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    I saw the Sky interviews with Maxwell's brother. Did he use the same PR agency as Prince Andrew, as it was a total car crash.

    I know somebody who did some investigations into the Maxwell family after the pension theft came to light.

    He said if you watch Succession, that gives a pretty good idea of how the Maxwell family thinks and operates, except they make Kendall, Roman, Connor, and Shiv look like good people.
    I thought Succession was supposed to be loosely based on Murdochs?
    Plot/events wise a little, but not the people.
    I dunno, I get Lachlan vibes from Kendall. And Elisabeth and Shiv have some similarities (not in terms of husbands or sexual behaviour). But Roman is definitely not James. And Connor is a comedic work of genius that I simply cannot place.
    Peak Succession moment was that choice of song at the company meeting dealing with the rape allegations.

    For the first time in probably twenty years I genuinely felt bad for laughing at something.
  • MaxPB said:

    I see France has banned plastic packaging for fruits and vegetables. I'm sure I read supermarket people say it would be impossible yet another similar country has just done it. This is an easy win for Boris and co, get rid of the packaging nightmare in supermarkets!

    I'm not sure why packaging is a nightmare. Having seen the mauling some fresh produce gets, I'd not want to buy it loose. But no doubt George Eustice will be on the case.
  • Spooky coincidence: my leaning tower of Mrs Thatcher DVDs has just toppled over.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Sure to go down a treat with the Brexit constituency.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Unless the pubs close due to lack of staff I guess.
  • Young autistic man confined in hospital’s former storage room for four years

    A vulnerable man of 24 has spent years caught in a vicious circle, where confinement makes his violent episodes worse. All his mother wants is a chance for him to have a normal life

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/young-autistic-man-confined-in-hospitals-former-storage-room-for-four-years-lcp8pn26p

    Almost as if most autistic people are not just one paper away from a phone call from Stockholm.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,425
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Couple of remarkable videos here


    Sturgeon's Stasi apparently shutting down a NYE party


    https://twitter.com/EOTILLOGICAL/status/1477319572311224321?s=20


    https://twitter.com/gmacman_gmac/status/1477346597969219587?s=20


    Actually feel a tiny bit sorry for the cops. Enforcing controversial if not foolish restrictions

    I think this undermines the position. Like students dropping that fire extinguisher in the riots.
    It's not clear what is happening in the videos. Some are claiming the bar staff wanted a guy ejected and the cops just helped out. But that doesn't really gel with the way the police behave, let alone the half dozen police vans parked outside (to arrest one man for dancing?)

    Terrible optics for the Scottish police
    You know where I stand on this, but don't underestimate the number of people who will just think "sensible, caring Nicola locking the nutters up"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Vaguely on topic, it's probably fair to say had Labour lost Batley & Spen, it would have been an uncomfortable time for Starmer - oddly enough, all three main parties have had something from by-elections but they have reflected the changing political fortunes of the year.

    To be fair, I think Old Bexley & Sidcup is the most significant of the recent contests. The swing to Labour in a southern suburban seat was modest - if places like East Wickham, Falconwood and Sidcup had swung decisively to Labour, the panic in Conservative circles would have been obvious but we've yet to see that and indeed plenty of local by-elections in the north and midlands are still returning strong Conservative vote shares.

    For the LDs, winning Chesham & Amersham and North Shropshire keeps them in the game - it reminds the less politically aware they exist. The Conservatives will almost certainly regain North Shropshire at a future GE, Chesham & Amersham is less clear cut.

    We have the London local elections this year - in 2018, the vote split was Lab 44 Con 29 LD 13 and Green 8.5. There are challenges for the three main parties - the Conservatives might not find holding Barnet and Wandsworth so easy while Labour might be looking to make progress in Hillingdon. As for the LDs, they need to hold their three boroughs and I think they may be vulnerable in Kingston and Sutton.

    The other interesting London Borough is Merton: can the LDs maintain the momentum they had in the Wimbledon Parliamentary constituency?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Scott_xP said:
    In all fairness Scott, Johnson did suggest many years ago that any employee shortfall by sending Eastern Europeans packing as a result of Brexit could be made up by "our friends from the Indian subcontinent". In this instance his word was his bond and I am totally comfortable with this.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Beyond that, it is not at all obvious that a lockdown would achieve ANYTHING - apart from wrecking business, damaging minds, and further indebting the country. Omicron is just too infectious, and too widely seeded. All the models said this before Xmas, either lockdown immediately (ie before NYE) or it is pointless, and too late, and won't ease the pressure on hospitals
  • londoneyelondoneye Posts: 112

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    they wont close the pubs unless things become dire...but a return to table service only is quite possible together with a shuttering of nightclubs
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    londoneye said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    I think it's leadership positioning. He's been tagged as a lockdown ultra alongside Gove which will guarantee he won't get the leadership.
    mood music on further restrictions not good tonite. This from chris hopson of nhs providers

    https://twitter.com/ChrisCEOHopson/status/1477263146779910149?s=20
    Yeah, that pretty much fits with what I have seen from our SMT. Buckle up people, we are in for a bumpy ride.

    I think there will be a lot more resistance to redeployment than last time though. Mrs Foxy has PTSD from working ICU last wave. She isn't going back.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2022

    Scott_xP said:
    In all fairness Scott, Johnson did suggest many years ago that any employee shortfall by sending Eastern Europeans packing as a result of Brexit could be made up by "our friends from the Indian subcontinent". In this instance his word was his bond and I am totally comfortable with this.
    The seaside towns and the Red Wall constituencies will also clearly agree, lovers of modern multicultural Britain as they are one and all.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    londoneye said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    they wont close the pubs unless things become dire...but a return to table service only is quite possible together with a shuttering of nightclubs
    What on earth is that going to do against Omicron? It's like aiming a pea-shooter at Gibraltar
  • dixiedean said:

    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?

    Alpha Men Assemble?
    Good grief.
    Sounds like a @Leon fan club :lol:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Beyond that, it is not at all obvious that a lockdown would achieve ANYTHING - apart from wrecking business, damaging minds, and further indebting the country. Omicron is just too infectious, and too widely seeded. All the models said this before Xmas, either lockdown immediately (ie before NYE) or it is pointless, and too late, and won't ease the pressure on hospitals
    Though a formal closure of pubs etc brings support. Simply people staying away does as much harm to the businesses, but without compensation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Beyond that, it is not at all obvious that a lockdown would achieve ANYTHING - apart from wrecking business, damaging minds, and further indebting the country. Omicron is just too infectious, and too widely seeded. All the models said this before Xmas, either lockdown immediately (ie before NYE) or it is pointless, and too late, and won't ease the pressure on hospitals
    Though a formal closure of pubs etc brings support. Simply people staying away does as much harm to the businesses, but without compensation.
    But we can't afford it
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Beyond that, it is not at all obvious that a lockdown would achieve ANYTHING - apart from wrecking business, damaging minds, and further indebting the country. Omicron is just too infectious, and too widely seeded. All the models said this before Xmas, either lockdown immediately (ie before NYE) or it is pointless, and too late, and won't ease the pressure on hospitals
    Though a formal closure of pubs etc brings support. Simply people staying away does as much harm to the businesses, but without compensation.
    But we can't afford it
    Then pubs, theatres, shops and restaurants will close their doors for good.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    londoneye said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    they wont close the pubs unless things become dire...but a return to table service only is quite possible together with a shuttering of nightclubs
    I've busted you! You are Mark Drakeford!
  • Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    What are the odds that having said that in their prior models, the new models presented on 4 January say that we must lockdown now and its not too late. 🙄

    They're so predictable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Royal courtiers have discussed plans to ask the Duke of York to stop using his title if he loses a lawsuit brought by a victim of the sex abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

    Prince Andrew would also be asked to give up his remaining links to charities and would be sent into a form of “internal exile”, according to ideas being debated in the royal household.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-andrew-may-be-cast-into-royal-exile-if-he-loses-virginia-giuffre-sex-case-h2fngbdr9

    Where's he going to go, this internal exile stuff? Basingstoke?
    The Pitcairn Islands or Rockall.
    The former is not internal IIRC. BVI more likely.
    Pitcairn ruled out I think

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands#Sexual_misconduct_in_modern_times

    BVI - bear in mind he does shady finance as well as shady sex. Permanent grounding at Balmoral with ankle tag seems most realistic option.
    What's wrong with York? What have the Scots done to deserve that?

    Of course, that's assuming the case goes the wrong way.
    I am not sure the wrong way, is the wrong way, iyswim. I thought balmoral because gulags = siberia = north and because the rf don't afaik have 10s of 000s acres of nothing but heather in the vicinity of York.
    What else are the North York Moors? Lots of **** all but sheep, old alum mines and Fylingdales.
  • I thought hospitalisations were supposed to be very often briefer than in Delta, at the moment ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    dixiedean said:

    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?

    Alpha Men Assemble?
    Good grief.
    Sounds like a @Leon fan club :lol:
    Surely with all the different iterations we've had, it's Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon Mean Assemble?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    I thought hospitalisations were supposed to be very often briefer than in Delta, at the moment ?

    Indeed. I thought so, but there is this in that Telegraph article linked below

    "There is also nothing yet in the UK data yet to suggest that hospital stays are any shorter, and Covid occupancy of ICU beds has once again started to creep up."


    Gawd elp us
  • dixiedean said:

    Antivaxers threaten ‘radical action’ after boxing drills on beach

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/antivaxers-threaten-radical-action-after-boxing-drills-on-beach-h3rf9khkq

    Are they planning on fighting off COVID via hand to hand combat?

    Alpha Men Assemble?
    Good grief.
    Alpha Men Assemble sounds a bit like a children's toy construction or model assembly kit.
  • londoneyelondoneye Posts: 112
    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    yes i think javid is playing politics here he doesnt want to seem keen for restrictions but he can always say new data has changed his mind
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    dixiedean said:

    londoneye said:

    and this from the telegraph tonite

    Frightening new Covid data shows Boris Johnson’s omicron gamble may be about to implode

    The Prime Minister put everything on NHS blue – but the wheel is still spinning and hospital admissions are rising fast

    ByPaul Nuki, GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY EDITOR, LONDON1 January 2022 • 5:37pm

    I cannot see any further restrictions in England. Political expediency suggests "steady as she goes". If the NHS falls over and/or more people start to die that is troublesome but not as troublesome as closing the pubs.

    Besides which the policy is clearly now one of herd immunity through a combination of vaccination and infection. It's probably the right call, but it won't be without negative consequences.
    Unless the pubs close due to lack of staff I guess.
    Although that call isn't Johnson's. He"s done his best. It's just events.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    What are the odds that having said that in their prior models, the new models presented on 4 January say that we must lockdown now and its not too late. 🙄

    They're so predictable.
    And so are you. Whatever evidence is presented, your answer will always be that your personal freedom is more valuable than any number of lives.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    Nah, that model is "for COVID" and they're comparing it to real world data which is "with COVID" and the incremental admissions are coming in at only ~50% for COVID.

    Annoyingly we only get the incidentals report once a week, this week it showed that of the ~11k in hospital registered on the dash in England 7k were primarily for COVID and the other 4k for something else and that with 1/3 English cases in the relating period being Delta infections.

    If 1/20 people have got COVID then 1/20 hospital admissions will have it, and that's what the dashboard stats are registering right now. Once again, the journalists are doing a skin deep analysis rather than actually getting into it.
  • US judge delivers double setback to Prince Andrew’s abuse case battle

    Pressure grows on duke to settle alleged victim’s claim before key hearing this week


    Two of Prince Andrew’s avenues to prevent or stall the progression of Virginia Roberts Giuffre’s sex assault lawsuit against him were blocked on Saturday by a federal judge, increasing pressure to settle claims before a crucial court hearing this week.

    Judge Lewis A Kaplan, in a written order, told the prince’s lawyers they must turn over documents on the schedule that has been set in the lawsuit brought by Guiffre who claims she was abused – aged 17 – by the prince on multiple occasions in 2001 while she was being sexually abused by financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Kaplan also rejected arguments by the prince’s lawyer, Andrew Brettler, on jurisdiction grounds after they argued last week that the lawsuit should be dismissed because Giuffre, a US citizen, no longer lives in the US.

    The rulings come before an important case hearing in New York on Tuesday, one day after the scheduled public release on Monday of a 2009 settlement agreement between Epstein and Giuffre that lawyers for Andrew had hoped would protect him from Guiffre’s claims.

    The developments follow revelations that Giuffre’s lawyers are reportedly claiming they have up to six witnesses linking the duke to his accuser on the eve of the hearing into a civil lawsuit filed by the 38-year-old, in which she accuses Prince Andrew of sexual assault.

    In a separate development, Andrew’s lawyers are also reported to have not provided documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, despite the claim supporting his denial against allegations he had sex with Giuffre.

    The duke is also said not to have so far named any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night in 2001 he was accused of having sex with Giuffre.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/01/prince-andrew-lawsuit-virginia-giuffre-effort-block-rejected

    He should get used to be called Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor from now on.
  • Had my brother and sister-in-law and my little nephew round for Christmas. Anecdotally, per my sister-in-law (who, I must stress, works quite legally as an NHS medic in Essex), it appears that many of "our friends from the Indian Subcontinent", ah, "accidentally" destroy their papers on purpose after a few years so that the Home Office can't "prove" they are overstaying.

    Not sure if she's right, but I wouldn't it past them!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    Johnson cannot lockdown after "Partygate". If he does he's finished.

    What did he say about corpses 18 months ago?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Unnoticed (at least by me) Quebec has just gone into curfew and quasi-lockdown


    "Premier Francois Legault announced Thursday he was reimposing a curfew because the province's hospitals risked becoming overwhelmed with COVID-19 cases. The 10 p.m. to 5 p.m. curfew was scheduled to begin on New Year's Eve and run for an indefinite period of time. He also banned indoor private gatherings and forced restaurants to close their dining rooms."

    I think "5pm" must be a typo, otherwise that's the most draconian curfew in history


    https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/quebec-opposition-parties-say-covid-19-curfew-a-sign-of-government-s-failure-1.5724686

    This is not a very cheerful New Year's Day
  • 2 years ago today: 8 people, including Dr. Li Wenliang, are reprimanded by police for "spreading rumors" about a virus outbreak in Wuhan

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1477373810189996033?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    londoneye said:

    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    yes i think javid is playing politics here he doesnt want to seem keen for restrictions but he can always say new data has changed his mind
    A politician with a mind?

    Can't remember when we last had one of those.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    Nah, that model is "for COVID" and they're comparing it to real world data which is "with COVID" and the incremental admissions are coming in at only ~50% for COVID.

    Annoyingly we only get the incidentals report once a week, this week it showed that of the ~11k in hospital registered on the dash in England 7k were primarily for COVID and the other 4k for something else and that with 1/3 English cases in the relating period being Delta infections.

    If 1/20 people have got COVID then 1/20 hospital admissions will have it, and that's what the dashboard stats are registering right now. Once again, the journalists are doing a skin deep analysis rather than actually getting into it.
    I hope you are right, Max. You often are
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Leon said:

    I thought hospitalisations were supposed to be very often briefer than in Delta, at the moment ?

    Indeed. I thought so, but there is this in that Telegraph article linked below

    "There is also nothing yet in the UK data yet to suggest that hospital stays are any shorter, and Covid occupancy of ICU beds has once again started to creep up."


    Gawd elp us
    Actually Chris Hopson has said the opposite on ICU beds and length of stay (notably ICU usage is not going up very much, and this is reflected in the mechanical ventilation stats on the dash). His alarm is actually related to general numbers in hospital (for anything) and staff sickness causing burnout for the ones who aren't as well as test shortages meaning some COVID contacts are having to isolate rather than do their daily negative test. He's clearly angling to get that negative test requirement removed for NHS staff (which is fair).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    I thought hospitalisations were supposed to be very often briefer than in Delta, at the moment ?

    It's also complicated by the fact that - with around 1 in 15 or 1 in 20 Brits having Covid right now - there will be a lot of incidental admissions. *And* I suspect there will be a fair number of people infected in hospital.

    Ultimately, though, we're probably close to the peak of cases - certainly it will be reached in the next 10 days (and is likely already behind us in London). Adding restrictions now seems like a case of bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    I sense we are on the knife edge tonight as hospitalisation numbers (far more important than case or death numbers) are continuing to be worrying.

    Javid may be whistling to keep his hopes (primarily political) up as he knows a return of restrictions will neuter his chances in a post-Johnson leadership election.

    The argument of the re-imposition of restrictions to "help save the NHS and the hospitals" will carry a lot of weight and we've got through Christmas. I don't expect the stringency of spring 2020 or early 2021 but we may well see an attempt to reduce large gatherings and perhaps a return to table service for 4 weeks.

    All speculation of course - the politics of it are curious. There's probably plenty of public support for a brief return of restrictions but the internal debate within the Conservative Party seems in a very different place.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    US judge delivers double setback to Prince Andrew’s abuse case battle

    Pressure grows on duke to settle alleged victim’s claim before key hearing this week


    Two of Prince Andrew’s avenues to prevent or stall the progression of Virginia Roberts Giuffre’s sex assault lawsuit against him were blocked on Saturday by a federal judge, increasing pressure to settle claims before a crucial court hearing this week.

    Judge Lewis A Kaplan, in a written order, told the prince’s lawyers they must turn over documents on the schedule that has been set in the lawsuit brought by Guiffre who claims she was abused – aged 17 – by the prince on multiple occasions in 2001 while she was being sexually abused by financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Kaplan also rejected arguments by the prince’s lawyer, Andrew Brettler, on jurisdiction grounds after they argued last week that the lawsuit should be dismissed because Giuffre, a US citizen, no longer lives in the US.

    The rulings come before an important case hearing in New York on Tuesday, one day after the scheduled public release on Monday of a 2009 settlement agreement between Epstein and Giuffre that lawyers for Andrew had hoped would protect him from Guiffre’s claims.

    The developments follow revelations that Giuffre’s lawyers are reportedly claiming they have up to six witnesses linking the duke to his accuser on the eve of the hearing into a civil lawsuit filed by the 38-year-old, in which she accuses Prince Andrew of sexual assault.

    In a separate development, Andrew’s lawyers are also reported to have not provided documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, despite the claim supporting his denial against allegations he had sex with Giuffre.

    The duke is also said not to have so far named any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night in 2001 he was accused of having sex with Giuffre.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/01/prince-andrew-lawsuit-virginia-giuffre-effort-block-rejected

    He should get used to be called Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor from now on.

    He should score 20m dollars off his mum and settle.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2022

    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    Johnson cannot lockdown after "Partygate". If he does he's finished.

    What did he say about corpses 18 months ago?
    I also get the feeling that another of Dominic's "videos" might appear again, were Johnson to order us back into any lockdown - although I don't get the sense that he's about to take any kind of decision like that at the moment. Another one of his videos or sets of pictures may be appear soonish anyway, now that Christmas is over, however.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    That Telegraph article is..... quite depressing


    "UK hospitalisations are outpacing three of the four projections produced by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) in the run-up to Christmas.

    "Currently, the real-world hospital data fits only into the lower range of the modeller's most "pessimistic" scenario – a scenario that could see hospitalisations spike in the next few weeks at more than double last January's peak (see charts above)."


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/frightening-new-covid-data-shows-boris-johnsons-omicron-gamble/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


    JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER WINTER LOCKDOWN

    Nah, that model is "for COVID" and they're comparing it to real world data which is "with COVID" and the incremental admissions are coming in at only ~50% for COVID.

    Annoyingly we only get the incidentals report once a week, this week it showed that of the ~11k in hospital registered on the dash in England 7k were primarily for COVID and the other 4k for something else and that with 1/3 English cases in the relating period being Delta infections.

    If 1/20 people have got COVID then 1/20 hospital admissions will have it, and that's what the dashboard stats are registering right now. Once again, the journalists are doing a skin deep analysis rather than actually getting into it.
    Doesn't make it much easier for the folk on the hospital staff, or the other patients, if the covid in the next bed is only incidental ...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    I thought hospitalisations were supposed to be very often briefer than in Delta, at the moment ?

    Indeed. I thought so, but there is this in that Telegraph article linked below

    "There is also nothing yet in the UK data yet to suggest that hospital stays are any shorter, and Covid occupancy of ICU beds has once again started to creep up."


    Gawd elp us
    Actually Chris Hopson has said the opposite on ICU beds and length of stay (notably ICU usage is not going up very much, and this is reflected in the mechanical ventilation stats on the dash). His alarm is actually related to general numbers in hospital (for anything) and staff sickness causing burnout for the ones who aren't as well as test shortages meaning some COVID contacts are having to isolate rather than do their daily negative test. He's clearly angling to get that negative test requirement removed for NHS staff (which is fair).
    My understanding is that length of stay is around 4.5 days for Covid patients now against historic numbers of 7-8. So that's a positive, as is the mechanical ventilation data.

    While I'm fairly sure we'll be OK, it doesn't mean the next four weeks won't be pretty unpleasant for those working in our health services. Hats of to them for the work they do.
  • Leon said:

    Sajid Javid: We must live with Covid

    He's meant to be pro-lockdown, so that's a good sign

    And of course he is right. All the models said that if we wanted to impose even a halfway effective lockdown we had to do it by December 31st at the latest

    It's Jan 1, 2022. It is now too late. We must endure
    What are the odds that having said that in their prior models, the new models presented on 4 January say that we must lockdown now and its not too late. 🙄

    They're so predictable.
    And so are you. Whatever evidence is presented, your answer will always be that your personal freedom is more valuable than any number of lives.
    Yes I will, its a point of principle for me. I'm not trying to twist the evidence to force it to suit my aims, I literally don't care what the "evidence" says.

    Where do you draw the line.

    Would you imprison a suspected killer without any evidence in order to save lives?
    Would you imprison an innocent person if it would save others lives?

    I wouldn't. I regret accepting lockdown last year and I certainly can't accept it post-vaccines.
This discussion has been closed.