France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
Classic something-must-be-done-ism - which, to be fair, is what we've also been practicing in the UK. I think that most of us would probably concur that, even if we assume that attempting to suppress Omicron is a good idea, nothing much short of Draconian limits on social interaction is going to stand any real chance of being effective in so doing.
Johnson and Macron both, for different reasons, have concerns about the continuation of their political careers at the moment, so erring on the side of caution and trusting in the vaccines makes sense for them. They're not going for lockdown or lockdown-lite unless the virus situation becomes obviously, irrefutably desperate.
The big mistake many European nations made in the summer and autumn, as many of us said at the time, is not taking that time to "learn to live with" the virus.
The very best thing in the whole pandemic besides the vaccines is the fact we lived for months with consistent 40k daily cases without restrictions.
That gives us multiple advantages. One is we've got much more people immune already to the whole virus not just the vaccine. The other is that we know we can live with cases.
Going from 40k daily Delta cases to 100k daily Omicron cases isn't a jump at all for us to worry about if it's 60% less severe. But for those countries that suppressed Delta the jump is far steeper because of both the lack of immunity and relative unpreparedness.
The multiple advantages including lots of dead people and folk with long covid.
OK. How many of the restrictions would you have kept in place continuously since March 2020 - and, given that easing any restrictions arguably means condemning at least a few people who would otherwise have survived to death by Covid, what (if any) Covid corpse count would you have been prepared to tolerate to let some of the rules go?
I think we should have followed the NZ model and we'd be in a much better spot
You do realise that "the NZ model" would have meant complete secession of all road supplies into the country. We would have quite possibly starved.
People talk about the NZ model as if it could be modified for the UK and have the same effect. Well, here's the thing, it couldn't. It relied on completely sealed borders, without exception and mandatory quarantine for anybody coming in. It really did mean taking measures to prevent Covid from entering the country. No tolerance levels, for eg. 1 in every 10,000 truck drivers having the virus and passing it on. Because if that happened the whole model failed.
Because of the number of UK citizens routinely abroad, the virus was also already seeded in this country to a far greater degree than it ever was in NZ. For all the claims in the early days that we were dealing with a handful of cases - we never were. Also the idea that the UK would or could have abandoned hundreds of thousands of UK citizens abroad without ability to return (as was the case in Australia and NZ) - again a complete non-starter.
I don’t think we would have starved, but there’d have been shortages of particular goods, which would have upset a lot of the usual suspects.
And you’re right about abandoning Brits abroad. I don’t think people here realise just how brutal the Australians and Kiwis have been in that regard.
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
Classic something-must-be-done-ism - which, to be fair, is what we've also been practicing in the UK. I think that most of us would probably concur that, even if we assume that attempting to suppress Omicron is a good idea, nothing much short of Draconian limits on social interaction is going to stand any real chance of being effective in so doing.
Johnson and Macron both, for different reasons, have concerns about the continuation of their political careers at the moment, so erring on the side of caution and trusting in the vaccines makes sense for them. They're not going for lockdown or lockdown-lite unless the virus situation becomes obviously, irrefutably desperate.
The big mistake many European nations made in the summer and autumn, as many of us said at the time, is not taking that time to "learn to live with" the virus.
The very best thing in the whole pandemic besides the vaccines is the fact we lived for months with consistent 40k daily cases without restrictions.
That gives us multiple advantages. One is we've got much more people immune already to the whole virus not just the vaccine. The other is that we know we can live with cases.
Going from 40k daily Delta cases to 100k daily Omicron cases isn't a jump at all for us to worry about if it's 60% less severe. But for those countries that suppressed Delta the jump is far steeper because of both the lack of immunity and relative unpreparedness.
The multiple advantages including lots of dead people and folk with long covid.
OK. How many of the restrictions would you have kept in place continuously since March 2020 - and, given that easing any restrictions arguably means condemning at least a few people who would otherwise have survived to death by Covid, what (if any) Covid corpse count would you have been prepared to tolerate to let some of the rules go?
I think we should have followed the NZ model and we'd be in a much better spot
You do realise that "the NZ model" would have meant complete secession of all road supplies into the country. We would have quite possibly starved.
People talk about the NZ model as if it could be modified for the UK and have the same effect. Well, here's the thing, it couldn't. It relied on completely sealed borders, without exception and mandatory quarantine for anybody coming in. It really did mean taking measures to prevent Covid from entering the country. No tolerance levels, for eg. 1 in every 10,000 truck drivers having the virus and passing it on. Because if that happened the whole model failed.
Because of the number of UK citizens routinely abroad, the virus was also already seeded in this country to a far greater degree than it ever was in NZ. For all the claims in the early days that we were dealing with a handful of cases - we never were. Also the idea that the UK would or could have abandoned hundreds of thousands of UK citizens abroad without ability to return (as was the case in Australia and NZ) - again a complete non-starter.
I don’t think we would have starved, but there’d have been shortages of particular goods, which would have upset a lot of the usual suspects.
And you’re right about abandoning Brits abroad. I don’t think people here realise just how brutal the Australians and Kiwis have been in that regard.
Not even just abroad, in the case of Australia in particular. Because of the independence of state governments there have been people who popped to a neighbouring state for a short weekend in the delta wave who then found themselves unable to return to home, family and job for several weeks! Although at least in those cases they weren't effectively destined to become effectively illegal aliens in a foreign country without the means to survive (outside of the goodwill of any friends they may have had there).
The Economist opposed the building of London's sewer system. I believe they thought we should learn to live with typhoid and cholera instead.
. Suffering and evil are nature’s admonitions””they cannot be got rid of; and the impatient attempts of benevolence to banish them from the world by legislation, before benevolence has learned their object and their end, have always been more productive of evil than good.
It is the folly of progress, much in evidence now as it has been for all time.
The main point is that you can deal with Covid and prevent associated avoidable deaths, in the same way that you can build sewers, but it always comes at a cost, and that has to be quantified and assessed. We know that there is a financial cost, of many unthinkable billions of pounds, but there is also a human cost which has not been assessed, also other costs that don't register, opportunity costs. And avoidable deaths that would not otherwise have occurred, for non covid related reasons. And so it goes on.
The inability of government and society to honestly run this calculation is a problem of civilisation ending proportions. It simply cannot comprehend a scenario where we accept that hundreds of thousands of people will die of natural causes, and insists we must do anything possible to avoid it, destroying our future in the process.
The Economist opposed the building of London's sewer system. I believe they thought we should learn to live with typhoid and cholera instead.
. Suffering and evil are nature’s admonitions””they cannot be got rid of; and the impatient attempts of benevolence to banish them from the world by legislation, before benevolence has learned their object and their end, have always been more productive of evil than good.
It is the folly of progress, much in evidence now as it has been for all time.
The main point is that you can deal with Covid and prevent associated avoidable deaths, in the same way that you can build sewers, but it always comes at a cost, and that has to be quantified and assessed. We know that there is a financial cost, of many unthinkable billions of pounds, but there is also a human cost which has not been assessed, also other costs that don't register, opportunity costs. And avoidable deaths that would not otherwise have occurred, for non covid related reasons. And so it goes on.
The inability of government and society to honestly run this calculation is a problem of civilisation ending proportions. It simply cannot comprehend a scenario where we accept that hundreds of thousands of people will die of natural causes, and insists we must do anything possible to avoid it, destroying our future in the process.
Yes, the "human cost" of building sewers is known to be... wait, I lost my place
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
It's not quite the same thing but I recall getting air conditioning for a classroom sized office costing somewhere around £15,000, and that was years and years ago. I suspect this is one of those things where you can do a cheap bodge job or you can do it right, and the price difference between the two will be large.
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot Good to hear from you Bunnco! How's life treating you?
Recovering from Covid! Politically I've had and have a ringside seat having worked closely with both Liz and Rishi over the last few years. I'd count them both as friends. Nowadays I really am 'Man on the Spot'
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Why do Conhomers prefer The Truss over Rishi Rich?
Hypothesis #1 - She gives some of them the horn.
Hypothesis #2 - Some of them are a bit racist/suffer from subconscious bias.
Hypothesis #3 - They want Maggie back.
Tories are like Aussies with Don Bradman who always hoped for another Don. Tories are always hoping for another Maggie. This is all the more poignant given what a terrible disappointment Boris Johnson is proving to be. Theresa May wasn't exactly brilliant either.
Your #2 may have a rather better angle on it. I'm not sure tories, like anyone else, particularly warm to the idea of a mega-rich multimillionaire businessman (and wife). Liz Truss' background is more similar to Maggie's and the northern links don't do her any harm either.
Hypothesis #4 Rishi is blamed for Corbyn-like levels of taxing and spending, possibly because none of them read the manifesto which pledged oodles of state investment even before Covid.
France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
I don't understand why there is the reinstatement of 2 metre, and even 1 metre, distancing rules and plastic screens as protective measures, when those ideas originated from the first wave with the Wuhan variant. We seem to have moved on from the idea of droplet spread to the virus being airborne, so at the very least surely these rules need reevaluating? And that's before you consider how transmissible the Omicron variant is.
I think there is quite a bit of being seen to be doing things going on.
France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
I don't understand why there is the reinstatement of 2 metre, and even 1 metre, distancing rules and plastic screens as protective measures, when those ideas originated from the first wave with the Wuhan variant. We seem to have moved on from the idea of droplet spread to the virus being airborne, so at the very least surely these rules need reevaluating? And that's before you consider how transmissible the Omicron variant is.
I think there is quite a bit of being seen to be doing things going on.
Do we know how Omicron is transmitted? We know that it "lives" in a different part of the respiratory system, so it seems plausible to me that the transmission is different too. Anyone seen anything reliable about the subject?
I would be happy to sell both Liz and Rishi here. I think there is no more than a 30-35% chance of one of them being the next Conservative Party leader - not least because I don't expect an imminent vacancy.
Sunak's ratings are going to be in the toilet by next May, that cost of living crisis is going to damage him a lot.
We don't know that. We've just had two opinion polls (this one and Survation on the last thread) telling us that the public rates Rishi higher than Boris, and the others, including Truss, not at all, in stark contrast to the Liz Truss love-in among activists at ConHome. If there were an election tomorrow, MPs will vote Rishi to save their seats. Only in Opposition might Truss win. Though as you say, the Chancellor's star might wane by the time Boris retires but we can look at the polls when that happens.
France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
I don't understand why there is the reinstatement of 2 metre, and even 1 metre, distancing rules and plastic screens as protective measures, when those ideas originated from the first wave with the Wuhan variant. We seem to have moved on from the idea of droplet spread to the virus being airborne, so at the very least surely these rules need reevaluating? And that's before you consider how transmissible the Omicron variant is.
I think there is quite a bit of being seen to be doing things going on.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
France going to mandatory WFH 3 days a week.... otherwise known as full time WFH in France.
They have also banned people from eating on long-distance trains....but i presume drinking and smoking is still allowed.
Seems up there with Drakeford ban on oven glove sales in terms of actually making a difference to covid spread.
I don't understand why there is the reinstatement of 2 metre, and even 1 metre, distancing rules and plastic screens as protective measures, when those ideas originated from the first wave with the Wuhan variant. We seem to have moved on from the idea of droplet spread to the virus being airborne, so at the very least surely these rules need reevaluating? And that's before you consider how transmissible the Omicron variant is.
I think there is quite a bit of being seen to be doing things going on.
Do we know how Omicron is transmitted? We know that it "lives" in a different part of the respiratory system, so it seems plausible to me that the transmission is different too. Anyone seen anything reliable about the subject?
No, and no expertise either, but it seems pretty unlikely that it has changed transmission vectors, given that the known one for Covid is about as perfect for transmissible virus spread as you could get.
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
Yours ever, mostly lurking because nowadays I know too much,
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
At what odds? Asking as a 100/1er
That third article contains this hidden gem from 2009:
To have knocked-off the Europe Issue and taken-on the reactionaries and come-out ahead in two short weeks is probably why The Guardian today has begrudgingly recognised that Cameron has what it takes.
I would be happy to sell both Liz and Rishi here. I think there is no more than a 30-35% chance of one of them being the next Conservative Party leader - not least because I don't expect an imminent vacancy.
Sunak's ratings are going to be in the toilet by next May, that cost of living crisis is going to damage him a lot.
We don't know that. We've just had two opinion polls (this one and Survation on the last thread) telling us that the public rates Rishi higher than Boris, and the others, including Truss, not at all, in stark contrast to the Liz Truss love-in among activists at ConHome. If there were an election tomorrow, MPs will vote Rishi to save their seats. Only in Opposition might Truss win. Though as you say, the Chancellor's star might wane by the time Boris retires but we can look at the polls when that happens.
One completely unmentioned aspect to all this leadership discussion is the attitude of Johnson were he to lose a VoNC. Does anyone really think he would be content, a la May, to carry on as PM until such point as his successor was decided? And would the Conservative party even want him there? I think no on both counts.
Which means, short of a rapid coronation amongst Tory MPs, with only some sort of confirmatory vote with the membership to retain the illusion of party member involvement, an interim PM. Who may or may not be a candidate in the subsequent election. Basically a big mess.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
It's not quite the same thing but I recall getting air conditioning for a classroom sized office costing somewhere around £15,000, and that was years and years ago. I suspect this is one of those things where you can do a cheap bodge job or you can do it right, and the price difference between the two will be large.
To do it right will be a properly insulated near zero energy building, and a whole building mvhr.
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
Yours ever, mostly lurking because nowadays I know too much,
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
At what odds? Asking as a 100/1er
That third article contains this hidden gem from 2009:
To have knocked-off the Europe Issue and taken-on the reactionaries and come-out ahead in two short weeks is probably why The Guardian today has begrudgingly recognised that Cameron has what it takes.
God, it seems several lifetimes ago, doesn't it? CAMERON SAYS NON and so on. Jesus.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
At the end of all this, we may very well find that the only NPIs that did much good were (1) social isolation (not the 2m rule and such limited measures, just straightforwardly going nowhere near people,) (2) fresh air, and possibly (3) medical grade masks (not the pointless blue paper things, worn as earrings or chinstraps.) The rest of it - obsessional surface cleaning, silly mask theatre and table service in restaurants, queuing up for everything in rigidly distanced lines - well, let's just say I remain to be convinced. Though then again, perhaps we'll never know the truth of it?
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
I was saying that the precautions were a load of old bollocks right from the get-go. It circulates in the air I said. Two metres separation achieves nothing I said. I'm no genius - I just paid attention to the evidence.
And Bozo kept telling us to sing Happy Birthday. Twice.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. You could open up both ends to the outside with sliding windows too. Just mosquito netting remained. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
Sale shopping done, bought a new TV, last time was about 8 years ago so we made it a good one. Did our bit for the, err, Japanese economy!
Reading back a few of the comments about waning immunity, I think there's a bit of talking across purposes, maybe just a misunderstanding, this is my understanding and @Charles can correct me if I'm wrong.
1. Neutralising antibodies are a first line defence and booster shots are very good at creating these. For older people this can be the difference between life and death. 2. T-cells and b-cells are second and third line defence, 2 doses of vaccine are just ok at training these to recognise COVID, prior infection is very good. Omicron doesn't evade either of these, dilution of CD4 response is tiny and dilution of the CD8 response is nil. 3. The problem with t-cells and b-cell based immunity is that it needs our own immune system to mount a defence, for people under 80 this is not really an issue and the immune system training we get from three jabs is thought to be excellent. For over 80+ it's not so good because the virus can overwhelm them and cause severe symptoms before memory based immune responses are mounted.
Summarising, cases in the triple or even double jabbed under 80s might not be a huge deal, cases in the over 80s may result in worse outcomes the further away from a booster shot they are. Post 12 weeks nAb concentration may be too low to protect from severe symptom meaning they will be wholly reliant on memory cell based immunity, which is where point 3 becomes relevant.
I believe this is why the government are already weighing up fourth shots for older people 12 weeks after their 3rd.
What we may end up with is a lot of under 60s getting some variant of COVID and then their second and third line of defence seeing it off before severe symptoms manifest but the over 60s requiring a medium to high nAb concentration to maintain neutralising immunity. It could potentially be done with half doses of Pfizer or quarter doses of Moderna two or three times a year.
A fourth dose of Moderna or Pfizer feels completely wasted on someone like me, I've just successfully mounted an immune response to Omicron clearly my system is up to the task after two or three doses.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
At the end of all this, we may very well find that the only NPIs that did much good were (1) social isolation (not the 2m rule and such limited measures, just straightforwardly going nowhere near people,) (2) fresh air, and possibly (3) medical grade masks (not the pointless blue paper things, worn as earrings or chinstraps.) The rest of it - obsessional surface cleaning, silly mask theatre and table service in restaurants, queuing up for everything in rigidly distanced lines - well, let's just say I remain to be convinced. Though then again, perhaps we'll never know the truth of it?
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Tokyo is probably colder than London on an average winter's day. Bits of Hokkaido will be colder than Braemar.
I feel fairly confident that one-way systems in 99% of instances added to the problem rather than helped, by making people walk further in more unnatural patterns and often in such a way as to pass people coming the other direction anyway.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Tokyo is probably colder than London on an average winter's day. Bits of Hokkaido will be colder than Braemar.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Meanwhile in the Balkans, I am led to believe, they are culturally hostile to ventilation. "No one ever died of a bad smell" is, ISTR, something of a Yugoslav aphorism - meaning "close the bloody window". Not sure how true this is.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Tokyo is probably colder than London on an average winter's day. Bits of Hokkaido will be colder than Braemar.
But they were in Taiwan.
My apologies, I got fixated on "Japanese" and flubbed the next bit.
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Tokyo is probably colder than London on an average winter's day. Bits of Hokkaido will be colder than Braemar.
But they were in Taiwan.
My apologies, I got fixated on "Japanese" and flubbed the next bit.
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
To be instantly shut by someone obsessed by the draught.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
The droplets-aerosols distinction is an absolute massive fuck up by WHO. They basically applied a model used for the spread of TB to all respiratory diseases with zero evidence.
The Economist opposed the building of London's sewer system. I believe they thought we should learn to live with typhoid and cholera instead.
. Suffering and evil are nature’s admonitions””they cannot be got rid of; and the impatient attempts of benevolence to banish them from the world by legislation, before benevolence has learned their object and their end, have always been more productive of evil than good.
It is the folly of progress, much in evidence now as it has been for all time.
The main point is that you can deal with Covid and prevent associated avoidable deaths, in the same way that you can build sewers, but it always comes at a cost, and that has to be quantified and assessed. We know that there is a financial cost, of many unthinkable billions of pounds, but there is also a human cost which has not been assessed, also other costs that don't register, opportunity costs. And avoidable deaths that would not otherwise have occurred, for non covid related reasons. And so it goes on.
The inability of government and society to honestly run this calculation is a problem of civilisation ending proportions. It simply cannot comprehend a scenario where we accept that hundreds of thousands of people will die of natural causes, and insists we must do anything possible to avoid it, destroying our future in the process.
Yes, the "human cost" of building sewers is known to be... wait, I lost my place
I just happened to be looking up details of a friend of my dad (Dr Roddy Ross, a well known piper and 'character') and noticed this resonant gem. This is a theory worthy of PB.
'Looking at the same aerial photos of Boreraig region you will see on the right side a hill road leading to Glendale. On this road is the famous stone — Clach Soraidh (Farewell Stone) which emigrants would kiss before making their way to Portree from where they would sail away, usually for ever.
What had happened was that an English GP, Dr Jenner, from Buckley, Gloucester, had in 1796 successfully developed a vaccine for smallpox. It rapidly was used in Europe and North America. The 40% who normally would have died from smallpox now lived, bringing about general starvation which in turn induced the spread of TB due to overcrowding. Emigration was the only answer — and here the MacLeod chiefs spent almost their all in transport fees. As did the Church of Scotland. And we must give thanks to the many MacLeod chiefs, who always stood loyally by their kinsmen, and also to the C. of S.'
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
I'm not sure it's correct even to say that the original rules were developed in response to the original Wuhan variant. We spent a long time discussing on here as long ago as back in March/April 2020 how they seemed more designed from assumptions for virus spread, rather than based on real world evidence. And they've just stuck around ever since, probably just to avoid confusing the message (and possibly because it was thought that some things - hands/face were just good hygiene practice anyway).
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Helps that they are a nation used to ventilation. Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer. Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
That mysterious evil is probably the freezing cold in the winter.
Tokyo is probably colder than London on an average winter's day. Bits of Hokkaido will be colder than Braemar.
But they were in Taiwan.
Yeah. Was colder inside in the Winter than most in the UK would tolerate tbf. No heating or double glazing. Wear a coat inside job.
I feel fairly confident that one-way systems in 99% of instances added to the problem rather than helped, by making people walk further in more unnatural patterns and often in such a way as to pass people coming the other direction anyway.
One way systems, like table service in pubs, are one of the measures which probably had at best a minor impact on the pandemic but I'd secretly like to keep forever. The supermarket was just so much more orderly and smooth when everyone was going the same paths around...
In the case of the plastic screens i recall there was a lot of people calling for their removal because they actually potentially increased the risks of transmission - because they restricted ventilation and potentially trapped Covid in little air pockets...
I expect when there is finally a proper inquiry into covid we are going to be told that a lot of what we did was a waste of time and money, and some of it will have proven to be counterproductive.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
At the end of all this, we may very well find that the only NPIs that did much good were (1) social isolation (not the 2m rule and such limited measures, just straightforwardly going nowhere near people,) (2) fresh air, and possibly (3) medical grade masks (not the pointless blue paper things, worn as earrings or chinstraps.) The rest of it - obsessional surface cleaning, silly mask theatre and table service in restaurants, queuing up for everything in rigidly distanced lines - well, let's just say I remain to be convinced. Though then again, perhaps we'll never know the truth of it?
Lots of wierd about Covid. Right at the start a colleague caught Covid from a London trip, end of feb 2020. (No test at the time, but antibodies a couple of months later). I sat drinking coffee with him twice a day for a couple of weeks as he complained that ‘coffee tastes shit’ and he started drinking tea made with three ginger tea bags. Classic taste/smell disturbance. We had no ventilation, and sat opposite each other in our offices. He passed Covid on to his wife. I didn’t catch it. I think the original strain was not as infectious as has been portrayed, but it’s clearly massively less than delta and now omicron. I’m pretty sure if my colleague had had omicron I would have been infected. As to the measures we’ve used - it’s not really clear what is most effective, other than the original style lockdown. Social distancing seems like a bust based on the latest government ads (clouds of black virus particles that don’t obey the 2m rule). Hand washing probably helps a bit, but not much, and the same for the endless ckeaning of surfaces. Won’t have done much harm, but not much good either. One way routes, again, totally pointless with the black clouds of virus... Screens seem to be the enemy of good air circulation.
Masks, much as I hate them, and yes the ones in general use are not the best generally, but they probably are about the best nip short of the physical isolation of lockdown/wfh.
Sadly I don’t expect anything to change with our approaches, should more restrictions etc be needed. It looks like we are ok for a while in England at least, and long may that continue.
People insist we are not in any danger, the same people here who insisted there was no danger with Delta and I recall with the original lockdown as well.
I will take their predictions with a grain of salt. And I hope as always, I am wrong - and things turn out to be okay.
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
What is frustrating is there is much more known about covid, but there was no update on symptoms, no sinple life saving advice e.g. rather hand, face, space, get a bloody oxygen sat meter (and what to look for if you get covid), get an ffp3 mask, lose weight...
Truss may have led with Con members on ConHome a few days ago but the point is that both Con MPs and Con members are going to want to win the next GE and will therefore be heavily influenced by the polling during a contest.
If the polling suggests Truss will do badly at a GE then Con MPs won't put her into the Final 2 and even if they do, members may still reject her when they see polling of how the Final 2 would both do at a GE.
If the polling isn't clear cut then it may not be critical. But if the polling is clear cut that one candidate would do best by miles at a GE then that candidate is highly likely to win. Indeed this is exactly what happened with Boris.
In contrast, members on ConHome a few days ago hadn't seen any such polling.
@CorrectHorseBattery if the jabs aren't enough then they’ll have to be enough because we physically cant restrict social interaction indefinitely. It’s irrelevant if that would work in a computer model, its just not workable in reality and anyone pretending otherwise either has an agenda or is fooling themselves.
I had £50 on her to be next PM at Labdrokes back in 2015. Brexit got in the way of that one but twelve years on you can learn all you need to know about how mentally tough and driven Liz Truss is by reading the three articles on her original parliamentary selection shenanigans in this series of Long Reads on Political Betting's Channel 2 [yes there was one] from 2009
I feel fairly confident that one-way systems in 99% of instances added to the problem rather than helped, by making people walk further in more unnatural patterns and often in such a way as to pass people coming the other direction anyway.
One way systems, like table service in pubs, are one of the measures which probably had at best a minor impact on the pandemic but I'd secretly like to keep forever. The supermarket was just so much more orderly and smooth when everyone was going the same paths around...
There are establishments that do table service for food - restaurants. Pubs should never have table service. It’s too dangerous. Getting up to visit the bar is a good test of how pissed you are getting...
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
Yea, but like FFP3 masks for HCW, it is a lot cheaper than the alternatives. Both are fairly simple mitigation measures that don't inconvenience the public.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
Luft (air) has been part of the German recommendation for a long time too.
With regard to omicron symptoms. Today I have managed a full day awake without a nap for the first time, 19 days after testing positive. Hooray for me! Feels like a bit of an achievement.
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
Yea, but like FFP3 masks for HCW, it is a lot cheaper than the alternatives. Both are fairly simple mitigation measures that don't inconvenience the public.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
Luft (air) has been part of the German recommendation for a long time too.
A few negative connotations from German history though!
With regard to omicron symptoms. Today I have managed a full day awake without a nap for the first time, 19 days after testing positive. Hooray for me! Feels like a bit of an achievement.
Dr John Campbell is always banging on about Vitamin D and this time last year the government ran a free supplement program. Was there any hard evidence that vitamin d deficiency was a risk factor?
Because obviously vitamin supplements are dirt cheap.
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
Yea, but like FFP3 masks for HCW, it is a lot cheaper than the alternatives. Both are fairly simple mitigation measures that don't inconvenience the public.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
Luft (air) has been part of the German recommendation for a long time too.
Another nation with a cultural love of ventilation.
With regard to omicron symptoms. Today I have managed a full day awake without a nap for the first time, 19 days after testing positive. Hooray for me! Feels like a bit of an achievement.
Good news. You sure it’s not just old age creeping up?
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
You keep being sarcastic with lines like "Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around"? I'm happy for legitimate debate too, but then you keep sarcastically insulting our beliefs and actions so its so tempting to respond.
The Royal parasites should fund their own yacht, we shouldn't spend this money on the country's largest benefit scroungers, but use the money to look after our children.
England could fit an air purifier to every classroom for half the price of the new royal yacht, a move which scientists and campaigners say would significantly reduce the spread of Covid in schools.
The move would cost about £140m, according to calculations by the Liberal Democrats. Government sources have said there will be no delay to the start of the school term, despite surging Omicron cases, and that any additional restrictions will not include classroom closures.
I broadly agree with the idea, but last year a US expert put a much higher figure* proportionally on doing the same thing for schools in the US. And he also concluded it wasn't really feasible as the supply simply didn't exist to do the job at that time. Look at the bottom of the article, New York City alone is distributing 100,000 HEPA purifiers. It is probably a good idea, and certainly better than many other measures that have been taken, but good air filtration fitted to schools will take quite a bit of time and almost certainly a lot more than £140 million.
* I don't remember exactly what it was but it was many billions of dollars to fit and supply all US classrooms.
I think we are being subjected to Lib Dem Maths in search of a headline.
A normal classroom is a little under 200 cubic metres, and has around 30 people in it for 6-7 hours a day. Can anyone come up with a public building enclosed space grade HEPA air purifier, and deliver, certify (PAT test etc), and fit it for £230?
If not, I'm inclined to call bullshit on this.
Yea, but like FFP3 masks for HCW, it is a lot cheaper than the alternatives. Both are fairly simple mitigation measures that don't inconvenience the public.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
Yes there was a case in South Korea or Japan right at the start where one person in a canteen or restaurant had passed the virus on to dozens of people, and the contact tracers had figured out where people had sat (CCTV I presume), and it sure as hell didn't look like droplets could explain the spread. At the same time we were basically being told to stand 2 metres apart, and there wasn't even much support for masks either.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
Luft (air) has been part of the German recommendation for a long time too.
Dr John Campbell is always banging on about Vitamin D and this time last year the government ran a free supplement program. Was there any hard evidence that vitamin d deficiency was a risk factor?
Because obviously vitamin supplements are dirt cheap.
Doesn't look like there's any benefit to having vitamin D supplements in terms of Covid.
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
You keep being sarcastic with lines like "Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around"? I'm happy for legitimate debate too, but then you keep sarcastically insulting our beliefs and actions so its so tempting to respond.
You chose to respond, I did not tag you.
I was responding to the Mail's stupid headline. We need to be careful about the virus, I think caution is sensible and that is how I will continue to be.
Dr John Campbell is always banging on about Vitamin D and this time last year the government ran a free supplement program. Was there any hard evidence that vitamin d deficiency was a risk factor?
Because obviously vitamin supplements are dirt cheap.
One issue with vitamin D supplements is that it’s not as simple as more vit D in, boosted immunity. I recall a lecture where vitamin D supplementing was attempted for various issues, with very little benefit. I think, but am not sure, that this may be linked to homopeostasis, with the body setting levels incorrectly. That may not be right though.
What is frustrating is there is much more known about covid, but there was no update on symptoms, no sinple life saving advice e.g. rather hand, face, space, get a bloody oxygen sat meter (and what to look for if you get covid), get an ffp3 mask, lose weight...
Yes they are still using the classic 3 symptoms for ordering tests, even though the ZOE study has pointed to symptoms being broader than that and changing. I do get the "keep the message clear" idea, but surely that can't be so strictly adhered to that it ultimately leads to its own confusion by persuading people that they don't have the right symptoms to warrant a test?
Dr John Campbell is always banging on about Vitamin D and this time last year the government ran a free supplement program. Was there any hard evidence that vitamin d deficiency was a risk factor?
Because obviously vitamin supplements are dirt cheap.
Doesn't look like there's any benefit to having vitamin D supplements in terms of Covid.
I presumed that was the case as other than him, only the nutters talk about it and the government discontinued the program. For all the "follow the latest science" stuff he does, he has gone down a few rather iffy rabbit holes.
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Another Important public health message! As well as knowing about cold like symptoms- always swab both your throat as well as your nose if you want an accurate #LFT ! We are lucky in U.K. to have them - so let’s use wisely
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
You keep being sarcastic with lines like "Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around"? I'm happy for legitimate debate too, but then you keep sarcastically insulting our beliefs and actions so its so tempting to respond.
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
You keep being sarcastic with lines like "Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around"? I'm happy for legitimate debate too, but then you keep sarcastically insulting our beliefs and actions so its so tempting to respond.
You chose to respond, I did not tag you.
I was responding to the Mail's stupid headline. We need to be careful about the virus, I think caution is sensible and that is how I will continue to be.
Headline seemed pretty low key to me, given what it could have been.
Interesting - Sunak improves the Tory position by:
- Winning back 2019 Con voters who currently say 'don't know' - Wining 1 in 6(!) voters currently backing LDs.
He makes no net gains from Labour at all - gains 3% of voters currently intending to vote Lab, but loses 3% to Lab.
If we are honest, apart from political geeks on here, do the public know anything about Sunak at all? I’m wary of polling like this. Better to pull over one hundred punters in the street and show pictures of politicians and see how many they recognise.
Worthwhile points made about people who just aren't aware of new restrictions coming in. A lot of people have just switched off the news these days, and are likely increasingly less aware of what is going on through simple pandemic fatigue. As often pointed out in other contexts, Government has a lot of levers to pull, but sometimes it just comes to a point that they have little or no effect.
The Economist opposed the building of London's sewer system. I believe they thought we should learn to live with typhoid and cholera instead.
. Suffering and evil are nature’s admonitions””they cannot be got rid of; and the impatient attempts of benevolence to banish them from the world by legislation, before benevolence has learned their object and their end, have always been more productive of evil than good.
It is the folly of progress, much in evidence now as it has been for all time.
The main point is that you can deal with Covid and prevent associated avoidable deaths, in the same way that you can build sewers, but it always comes at a cost, and that has to be quantified and assessed. We know that there is a financial cost, of many unthinkable billions of pounds, but there is also a human cost which has not been assessed, also other costs that don't register, opportunity costs. And avoidable deaths that would not otherwise have occurred, for non covid related reasons. And so it goes on.
The inability of government and society to honestly run this calculation is a problem of civilisation ending proportions. It simply cannot comprehend a scenario where we accept that hundreds of thousands of people will die of natural causes, and insists we must do anything possible to avoid it, destroying our future in the process.
Yes, the "human cost" of building sewers is known to be... wait, I lost my place
I just happened to be looking up details of a friend of my dad (Dr Roddy Ross, a well known piper and 'character') and noticed this resonant gem. This is a theory worthy of PB.
'Looking at the same aerial photos of Boreraig region you will see on the right side a hill road leading to Glendale. On this road is the famous stone — Clach Soraidh (Farewell Stone) which emigrants would kiss before making their way to Portree from where they would sail away, usually for ever.
What had happened was that an English GP, Dr Jenner, from Buckley, Gloucester, had in 1796 successfully developed a vaccine for smallpox. It rapidly was used in Europe and North America. The 40% who normally would have died from smallpox now lived, bringing about general starvation which in turn induced the spread of TB due to overcrowding. Emigration was the only answer — and here the MacLeod chiefs spent almost their all in transport fees. As did the Church of Scotland. And we must give thanks to the many MacLeod chiefs, who always stood loyally by their kinsmen, and also to the C. of S.'
Huh. Interesting idea. I knew there was issue with over-population and croft splitting (hence some of the incredibly narrow ones on Uist), but hadn't ever investigated why.
I was always told it the main reason for emigration was because the kelp got replaced by Whale oil, rather than enforced clearances (though this was a larger factor in Sutherland).
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
You're practically giddy at the idea things might go wrong.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I'm sorry I'm concerned about public health and that I don't share your rosey view of things. I hope I am wrong.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
You keep being sarcastic with lines like "Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around"? I'm happy for legitimate debate too, but then you keep sarcastically insulting our beliefs and actions so its so tempting to respond.
You chose to respond, I did not tag you.
I was responding to the Mail's stupid headline. We need to be careful about the virus, I think caution is sensible and that is how I will continue to be.
Yes you want "caution" but I think "caution" is atrocious. It destroys opportunities, livelihoods and is a terrible way to live.
The Mail is a hate-filled rag normally, but there's absolutely nothing hate-filled or negative about that headline. Are you so bitter that you are getting wound-up by the word "cheer"?
Comments
And you’re right about abandoning Brits abroad. I don’t think people here realise just how brutal the Australians and Kiwis have been in that regard.
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/all-trussed-up-and-nowhere-to-go.html
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/south-west-norfolk-were-going-into.html
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/cinders-shall-go-to-ball.html
Yours ever, mostly lurking because nowadays I know too much,
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
Part of my standard house reno is to install permanent trickle ventilation, which has costs in pennies per month.
The main point is that you can deal with Covid and prevent associated avoidable deaths, in the same way that you can build sewers, but it always comes at a cost, and that has to be quantified and assessed. We know that there is a financial cost, of many unthinkable billions of pounds, but there is also a human cost which has not been assessed, also other costs that don't register, opportunity costs. And avoidable deaths that would not otherwise have occurred, for non covid related reasons. And so it goes on.
The inability of government and society to honestly run this calculation is a problem of civilisation ending proportions. It simply cannot comprehend a scenario where we accept that hundreds of thousands of people will die of natural causes, and insists we must do anything possible to avoid it, destroying our future in the process.
I think there is quite a bit of being seen to be doing things going on.
*to people who don't have my good fortune of being hung like a mammoth
To have knocked-off the Europe Issue and taken-on the reactionaries and come-out ahead in two short weeks is probably why The Guardian today has begrudgingly recognised that Cameron has what it takes.
Which means, short of a rapid coronation amongst Tory MPs, with only some sort of confirmatory vote with the membership to retain the illusion of party member involvement, an interim PM. Who may or may not be a candidate in the subsequent election. Basically a big mess.
I'm not saying the rules being reinstated are definitely wrong, I'm wondering if a more transmissible variant and the now accepted belief that airborne transmission matters are still compatible with the original rules that were put in place. If they are that's fine, but I've not seen anything saying so.
Tough to retrofit.
Meanwhile from a very early stage the Japanese (who decided that their constitution ruled out many of the extreme lockdown approaches ultimately implemented elsewhere) seemed to have grasped that the key was masks and ventilation and seemed to have a lot of early actual evidence to back this up. Largely ignored it seems by the rest of the world.
And Bozo kept telling us to sing Happy Birthday. Twice.
https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/nsw-records-6394-new-covid19-cases-on-boxing-day/news-story/5597110356b6f45ecda751a1e3f02c8b
Used to have a Japanese-era flat in Taiwan. Had decorative, elaborate holes cut out of all the wooden internal walls to aid airflow. You could open up both ends to the outside with sliding windows too. Just mosquito netting remained. Used to cool the place in the steamy Summer.
Here someone would be plastering them up to stop the bloody draught working whatever mysterious evil it is supposed to do.
Instead of hands, face, space, we probably should have been told to open a couple of windows.
Not sure how true this is.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1475591498964025347?t=yG6639GTdo2g4FqpiOoa2Q&s=19
Oh goody, go crazy, spread the virus around. We are doomed if anything goes wrong
Household energy bills set to double, let's see how the Tories do for popularity then
This comment is a good example.
We are not doomed. Worst case things get a bit sticky and there is a more severe lockdown than we would like
'Looking at the same aerial photos of Boreraig region you will see on the right side a hill road leading to Glendale. On this road is the famous stone — Clach Soraidh (Farewell Stone) which emigrants would kiss before making their way to Portree from where they would sail away, usually for ever.
What had happened was that an English GP, Dr Jenner, from Buckley, Gloucester, had in 1796 successfully developed a vaccine for smallpox. It rapidly was used in Europe and North America. The 40% who normally would have died from smallpox now lived, bringing about general starvation which in turn induced the spread of TB due to overcrowding. Emigration was the only answer — and here the MacLeod chiefs spent almost their all in transport fees. As did the Church of Scotland. And we must give thanks to the many MacLeod chiefs, who always stood loyally by their kinsmen, and also to the C. of S.'
https://bagpipe.news/2020/01/05/journey-to-glendale-1931/
https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1475571003539533825?t=emV5X67u04ds4rcEwbsPbA&s=19
Just astonishing.
Please consider reading my posts in the future, instead of what you think they say in your imagination.
Have a lovely evening.
We had no ventilation, and sat opposite each other in our offices. He passed Covid on to his wife. I didn’t catch it.
I think the original strain was not as infectious as has been portrayed, but it’s clearly massively less than delta and now omicron. I’m pretty sure if my colleague had had omicron I would have been infected.
As to the measures we’ve used - it’s not really clear what is most effective, other than the original style lockdown. Social distancing seems like a bust based on the latest government ads (clouds of black virus particles that don’t obey the 2m rule). Hand washing probably helps a bit, but not much, and the same for the endless ckeaning of surfaces. Won’t have done much harm, but not much good either. One way routes, again, totally pointless with the black clouds of virus...
Screens seem to be the enemy of good air circulation.
Masks, much as I hate them, and yes the ones in general use are not the best generally, but they probably are about the best nip short of the physical isolation of lockdown/wfh.
Sadly I don’t expect anything to change with our approaches, should more restrictions etc be needed. It looks like we are ok for a while in England at least, and long may that continue.
You're going to be so disappointed if they don't.
I will take their predictions with a grain of salt. And I hope as always, I am wrong - and things turn out to be okay.
I respect your views, how about you respect mine for a change? Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not here for a legitimate debate and instead trolling.
Btw, how were your symptoms and are you fully recovered?
If the polling suggests Truss will do badly at a GE then Con MPs won't put her into the Final 2 and even if they do, members may still reject her when they see polling of how the Final 2 would both do at a GE.
If the polling isn't clear cut then it may not be critical. But if the polling is clear cut that one candidate would do best by miles at a GE then that candidate is highly likely to win. Indeed this is exactly what happened with Boris.
In contrast, members on ConHome a few days ago hadn't seen any such polling.
Omicron infection enhances neutralizing immunity against the Delta variant
https://twitter.com/sigallab/status/1475584463941914635
Hooray for me! Feels like a bit of an achievement.
Because obviously vitamin supplements are dirt cheap.
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937-021-00744-y
I was responding to the Mail's stupid headline. We need to be careful about the virus, I think caution is sensible and that is how I will continue to be.
"Take that Omicron, and party!"
"Boris says 'party like it's 1999!'" etc etc
Interesting - Sunak improves the Tory position by:
- Winning back 2019 Con voters who currently say 'don't know'
- Wining 1 in 6(!) voters currently backing LDs.
He makes no net gains from Labour at all - gains 3% of voters currently intending to vote Lab, but loses 3% to Lab.
Worthwhile points made about people who just aren't aware of new restrictions coming in. A lot of people have just switched off the news these days, and are likely increasingly less aware of what is going on through simple pandemic fatigue. As often pointed out in other contexts, Government has a lot of levers to pull, but sometimes it just comes to a point that they have little or no effect.
I was always told it the main reason for emigration was because the kelp got replaced by Whale oil, rather than enforced clearances (though this was a larger factor in Sutherland).
The Mail is a hate-filled rag normally, but there's absolutely nothing hate-filled or negative about that headline. Are you so bitter that you are getting wound-up by the word "cheer"?