Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
UK COVID Alert Level increased from Level 3 to Level 4
epidemic is in general circulation; transmission is high and direct COVID pressure on healthcare services is widespread and substantial or rising
Here we go....Boris up again on Monday?
I'm expecting the lockdown to be announced on the next scheduled review date, next Saturday, Dec 18. That'll allow the Parliamentary by-election on Thursday to be cleared first, but enable rules to (presumably) be railroaded through just in time to persuade that fraction of the population that's still very frightened, scrupulously law-abiding, or still willing to listen to Johnson's bullshit (no laughing at the back) to cancel Christmas.
Parliament closes for Christmas on Tuesday after the days business
Easy enough recalled.
(NB I'm usually wrong about anything to do with politics. I've decided that if I keep predicting new dates for the next lockdown then, as with those weird American cults that keep trying to prophesy the Rapture, it will never happen. No need to thank me.)
I detect a cunning plan. Total lockdown announced starting Thursday 16 December. Polling stations in North Shropshire all closed. In the interests of democracy, by-election to go ahead but will just be based on postal votes already received. Tories win. Job done. Lockdown lifted on Friday 17 December.
As per page 178 of the foreign office report on Belarus election. At least someone’s reading through their red boxes.
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
When life comes at you, it really comes at you.
That shouldn't be a like. Best of luck. Anecdotal positives are coming thick and fast.
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
That's not what I meant, apologies for my poor posting.
I meant, Boots etc are selling the FFP2 ones which are the ones I see most people wearing when they go for higher quality ones. And FFP2 I think are very effective, FFP3 moreso but not a huge difference for COVID from what I call.
I believe FFP2 is equivalent to 95 for the US?
N95 and FFP2 are similar kinds of respiratory masks. These masks supposedly protect both the wearer and people around them. The World Health Organisation cites studies which show the filtration systems of FFP2 and N95 masks are 94 and 95 per cent effective respectively. Their enhanced effectiveness has led to countries such as Austria and Germany making them a requirement on public transport. FFP3 masks are the most effective, followed by FFP2/N95, then surgical masks and, finally, cloth masks.
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
When I hear that expression, I am instantly 7 years old once again and clutching my sixpence at the corner shop near the old railway carriage where we had our seaside holidays ...
This Boris presser strikes me as a political event to boost his “Prime Ministerial” image and nothing more
I don't think so. I think all the SAGE lot have been on to him, telling him the end of the world is nigh and he has done what Boris always does and will try a fudge.
@Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".
For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.
That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.
I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.
The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
No, you're just attacking straw men now. The only point I'm trying to make is that masks work. This is in response to your repeated false assertions that they do not. At no point have I said masks should be mandated, I'm just trying to bring some truth in to usurp your lies.
You seem on the verge in the above post of saying that NPIs do, in fact, work. Alongside a separate argument which is saying that, to paraphrase, "they are bad BECAUSE they work".
Well, it's progress, I guess. I hope you'll stop with your anti-science premises now. I won't even attempt to tackle your argument that it's good to let this spread, not now at least.
No shit Sherlock that masks work. That's why I advocated for them last year.
I dispute that mask mandates work post vaccines because inhibiting those who are not bothered about catching Covid and putting them on the same footing as those who are bothered is a terrible idea.
The only way out of this is immunity. The best way to get immunity is vaccines, we've done that.
The second best way to get immunity is for those who don't care if they get infected, to naturally get infected before those who do care if they do.
Inhibiting the spread of the virus post vaccines is stupid. The sane solution is those who are bothered wear masks to protect themselves and nobody else does.
So you've gone on journey from being right about the facts of masks to being wrong about them. What do you want, part credit? Most people prefer to go the other way but horses for courses I guess.
If you were confident in your justification that masks shouldn't be mandated, why go around spreading misinformation about mask efficacy? Why lie?
I never said masks have no efficacy.
I said mask mandates are bad.
There's a difference. I've said that many times now. How many different ways do I need to say it?
'Sadly there is a bullshit idea that has been spread that "your mask protects others"'
'If mask mandates had efficacy, we should surely have studies demonstrating that by now. Where are they?'
You, just in the last few days. I remember older stuff too, but I'm not doing your homework for you a third time. You've been trying to get people to think masks don't work for several weeks. It would be better if you used honest means to push your agenda. Philip, you've lied repeatedly.
Mask mandates. Mask mandates not masks. 🤦♂️
"If mask mandates had efficacy"
They don't. Mask mandates don't work because they suppress the virus for everyone but the virus is still endemic. It doesn't ensure those capable of defeating the virus get immunity. It doesn't suppress the virus away from those vulnerable, since the virus remains endemic.
Mandates don't work. Name any state or nation with mask mandates that has better immunity now than we do?
Mask mandates do work. It's right there in one of the studies I sent you earlier that you claim to have read. Jesus fucking Christ, how is it possible you cram so much stupid into just one head? You're like a fucking goldfish.
Define "work".
Working is getting out of restrictions and our normal life with high immunity so the virus isn't causing problems. How do mask mandates achieve that end?
They are counterproductive as they prevent the right people from getting infected, postponing the infection until down the road. They don't prevent infections, they just delay them for everyone which is not working.
But if you don't have mask mandates then you can have more infections amongst the low-risk, but if you are high-risk you can be better protected than everyone else.
Utter nonsense. And worse than that, dangerous.
How is it nonsense? Or dangerous?
What is dangerous is making the vulnerable as likely to be infected as the low-risk. Its bloody counterproductive in fact which is why hospitalisations have ended up higher in nations with mask mandates than those without them.
The sooner the low-risk unvaccinated people get infected the better. That builds even more herd immunity than we already have, preventing it and ensuring the high-risk are as likely to be infected as the low-risk is stupid.
Indeed. What is dangerous to you about other people dying?
If I was wearing a mask while encouraging others not to then you'd have a point.
You don't. Until it was the law I was following my own advice and not wearing a mask. I knew I could reduce my own risk by wearing an FFP2 mask but I'm not worried about being vulnerable so I would rather take my chances with the vaccine being enough and save the masks for the vulnerable instead.
Maybe the best thing would be for the law to be changed so that people don't need to wear a mask provided they have "I don't give a toss about other people's lives" tattooed on their foreheads.
It would probably be a public service in the long run.
Wouldn’t it be more effective to simply state fund FFP3 masks for the vulnerable?
I do sometimes wonder why that hasn't been done.
I understand initially the idea of telling people to make their own cloth ones. But we really should have switched to public education about what the different gradings mean to enable people to make an informed choice.
The girls in my office have very stylish silk ones. Whether they are much use I have never dared to inquire.
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
That's not what I meant, apologies for my poor posting.
I meant, Boots etc are selling the FFP2 ones which are the ones I see most people wearing when they go for higher quality ones. And FFP2 I think are very effective, FFP3 moreso but not a huge difference for COVID from what I call.
I believe FFP2 is equivalent to 95 for the US?
N95 and FFP2 are similar kinds of respiratory masks. These masks supposedly protect both the wearer and people around them. The World Health Organisation cites studies which show the filtration systems of FFP2 and N95 masks are 94 and 95 per cent effective respectively. Their enhanced effectiveness has led to countries such as Austria and Germany making them a requirement on public transport. FFP3 masks are the most effective, followed by FFP2/N95, then surgical masks and, finally, cloth masks.
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
I wonder if he will make an apology some time in his speech
It will be interesting to watch I content and tone
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
A relative made himself very unpopular with his workforce by forcing them to uses FFP3, noddy suits, gloves etc when handling fibre glass insulation on his building sites.
His theory is that he will be able to sleep in his old age, without hearing a lot of people coughing themselves to death, in his dreams.
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
That's not what I meant, apologies for my poor posting.
I meant, Boots etc are selling the FFP2 ones which are the ones I see most people wearing when they go for higher quality ones. And FFP2 I think are very effective, FFP3 moreso but not a huge difference for COVID from what I call.
I believe FFP2 is equivalent to 95 for the US?
N95 and FFP2 are similar kinds of respiratory masks. These masks supposedly protect both the wearer and people around them. The World Health Organisation cites studies which show the filtration systems of FFP2 and N95 masks are 94 and 95 per cent effective respectively. Their enhanced effectiveness has led to countries such as Austria and Germany making them a requirement on public transport. FFP3 masks are the most effective, followed by FFP2/N95, then surgical masks and, finally, cloth masks.
UK COVID Alert Level increased from Level 3 to Level 4
epidemic is in general circulation; transmission is high and direct COVID pressure on healthcare services is widespread and substantial or rising
Here we go....Boris up again on Monday?
I'm expecting the lockdown to be announced on the next scheduled review date, next Saturday, Dec 18. That'll allow the Parliamentary by-election on Thursday to be cleared first, but enable rules to (presumably) be railroaded through just in time to persuade that fraction of the population that's still very frightened, scrupulously law-abiding, or still willing to listen to Johnson's bullshit (no laughing at the back) to cancel Christmas.
Parliament closes for Christmas on Tuesday after the days business
Easy enough recalled.
(NB I'm usually wrong about anything to do with politics. I've decided that if I keep predicting new dates for the next lockdown then, as with those weird American cults that keep trying to prophesy the Rapture, it will never happen. No need to thank me.)
Nadhim Zahawi mentioned that Boris is doing a vaccine update tonight, on Trevor Phillips earlier. So I don't think we are going to see anything dramatic.
We are getting primed here.....I am absolutely convinced of this....its the same pattern as always.
Agree. The ostensible reason for this announcement is likely the extension of boosters to 30-39 year olds, but it's the ideal time to mention the latest batch of SAGE models that confidently predict we're all going to die by January 22nd 2022 without more restrictions. Is he going to be bringing along Whitty and Vallance again to confirm that we're all doomed?
@Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".
For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.
That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.
I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.
The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
No, you're just attacking straw men now. The only point I'm trying to make is that masks work. This is in response to your repeated false assertions that they do not. At no point have I said masks should be mandated, I'm just trying to bring some truth in to usurp your lies.
You seem on the verge in the above post of saying that NPIs do, in fact, work. Alongside a separate argument which is saying that, to paraphrase, "they are bad BECAUSE they work".
Well, it's progress, I guess. I hope you'll stop with your anti-science premises now. I won't even attempt to tackle your argument that it's good to let this spread, not now at least.
No shit Sherlock that masks work. That's why I advocated for them last year.
I dispute that mask mandates work post vaccines because inhibiting those who are not bothered about catching Covid and putting them on the same footing as those who are bothered is a terrible idea.
The only way out of this is immunity. The best way to get immunity is vaccines, we've done that.
The second best way to get immunity is for those who don't care if they get infected, to naturally get infected before those who do care if they do.
Inhibiting the spread of the virus post vaccines is stupid. The sane solution is those who are bothered wear masks to protect themselves and nobody else does.
So you've gone on journey from being right about the facts of masks to being wrong about them. What do you want, part credit? Most people prefer to go the other way but horses for courses I guess.
If you were confident in your justification that masks shouldn't be mandated, why go around spreading misinformation about mask efficacy? Why lie?
I never said masks have no efficacy.
I said mask mandates are bad.
There's a difference. I've said that many times now. How many different ways do I need to say it?
'Sadly there is a bullshit idea that has been spread that "your mask protects others"'
'If mask mandates had efficacy, we should surely have studies demonstrating that by now. Where are they?'
You, just in the last few days. I remember older stuff too, but I'm not doing your homework for you a third time. You've been trying to get people to think masks don't work for several weeks. It would be better if you used honest means to push your agenda. Philip, you've lied repeatedly.
Mask mandates. Mask mandates not masks. 🤦♂️
"If mask mandates had efficacy"
They don't. Mask mandates don't work because they suppress the virus for everyone but the virus is still endemic. It doesn't ensure those capable of defeating the virus get immunity. It doesn't suppress the virus away from those vulnerable, since the virus remains endemic.
Mandates don't work. Name any state or nation with mask mandates that has better immunity now than we do?
Mask mandates do work. It's right there in one of the studies I sent you earlier that you claim to have read. Jesus fucking Christ, how is it possible you cram so much stupid into just one head? You're like a fucking goldfish.
Define "work".
Working is getting out of restrictions and our normal life with high immunity so the virus isn't causing problems. How do mask mandates achieve that end?
They are counterproductive as they prevent the right people from getting infected, postponing the infection until down the road. They don't prevent infections, they just delay them for everyone which is not working.
But if you don't have mask mandates then you can have more infections amongst the low-risk, but if you are high-risk you can be better protected than everyone else.
Utter nonsense. And worse than that, dangerous.
How is it nonsense? Or dangerous?
What is dangerous is making the vulnerable as likely to be infected as the low-risk. Its bloody counterproductive in fact which is why hospitalisations have ended up higher in nations with mask mandates than those without them.
The sooner the low-risk unvaccinated people get infected the better. That builds even more herd immunity than we already have, preventing it and ensuring the high-risk are as likely to be infected as the low-risk is stupid.
Indeed. What is dangerous to you about other people dying?
If I was wearing a mask while encouraging others not to then you'd have a point.
You don't. Until it was the law I was following my own advice and not wearing a mask. I knew I could reduce my own risk by wearing an FFP2 mask but I'm not worried about being vulnerable so I would rather take my chances with the vaccine being enough and save the masks for the vulnerable instead.
Maybe the best thing would be for the law to be changed so that people don't need to wear a mask provided they have "I don't give a toss about other people's lives" tattooed on their foreheads.
It would probably be a public service in the long run.
Wouldn’t it be more effective to simply state fund FFP3 masks for the vulnerable?
I do sometimes wonder why that hasn't been done.
I understand initially the idea of telling people to make their own cloth ones. But we really should have switched to public education about what the different gradings mean to enable people to make an informed choice.
The girls in my office have very stylish silk ones. Whether they are much use I have dared to inquire.
Quite a few have a pocket to insert disposable filters.
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
When I hear that expression, I am instantly 7 years old once again and clutching my sixpence at the corner shop near the old railway carriage where we had our seaside holidays ...
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
I wonder if he will make an apology some time in his speech
It will be interesting to watch I content and tone
I can't bear to watch - all I think of is Benny Hill as Fred Scuttle:
My point was that when people refer to the "better" masks they're referring to FFP2, N95, 95% ones. FFP3 is the best one but that isn't what most are referring to when I say that.
UK COVID Alert Level increased from Level 3 to Level 4
epidemic is in general circulation; transmission is high and direct COVID pressure on healthcare services is widespread and substantial or rising
Here we go....Boris up again on Monday?
I'm expecting the lockdown to be announced on the next scheduled review date, next Saturday, Dec 18. That'll allow the Parliamentary by-election on Thursday to be cleared first, but enable rules to (presumably) be railroaded through just in time to persuade that fraction of the population that's still very frightened, scrupulously law-abiding, or still willing to listen to Johnson's bullshit (no laughing at the back) to cancel Christmas.
Parliament closes for Christmas on Tuesday after the days business
Easy enough recalled.
(NB I'm usually wrong about anything to do with politics. I've decided that if I keep predicting new dates for the next lockdown then, as with those weird American cults that keep trying to prophesy the Rapture, it will never happen. No need to thank me.)
You made me chuckle
We have to laugh Mr G or we'd all cry instead. Having been sunk in the mire of despond for the past couple of days, I am trying my best to remember this.
@Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".
For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.
That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.
I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.
The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
No, you're just attacking straw men now. The only point I'm trying to make is that masks work. This is in response to your repeated false assertions that they do not. At no point have I said masks should be mandated, I'm just trying to bring some truth in to usurp your lies.
You seem on the verge in the above post of saying that NPIs do, in fact, work. Alongside a separate argument which is saying that, to paraphrase, "they are bad BECAUSE they work".
Well, it's progress, I guess. I hope you'll stop with your anti-science premises now. I won't even attempt to tackle your argument that it's good to let this spread, not now at least.
No shit Sherlock that masks work. That's why I advocated for them last year.
I dispute that mask mandates work post vaccines because inhibiting those who are not bothered about catching Covid and putting them on the same footing as those who are bothered is a terrible idea.
The only way out of this is immunity. The best way to get immunity is vaccines, we've done that.
The second best way to get immunity is for those who don't care if they get infected, to naturally get infected before those who do care if they do.
Inhibiting the spread of the virus post vaccines is stupid. The sane solution is those who are bothered wear masks to protect themselves and nobody else does.
So you've gone on journey from being right about the facts of masks to being wrong about them. What do you want, part credit? Most people prefer to go the other way but horses for courses I guess.
If you were confident in your justification that masks shouldn't be mandated, why go around spreading misinformation about mask efficacy? Why lie?
I never said masks have no efficacy.
I said mask mandates are bad.
There's a difference. I've said that many times now. How many different ways do I need to say it?
'Sadly there is a bullshit idea that has been spread that "your mask protects others"'
'If mask mandates had efficacy, we should surely have studies demonstrating that by now. Where are they?'
You, just in the last few days. I remember older stuff too, but I'm not doing your homework for you a third time. You've been trying to get people to think masks don't work for several weeks. It would be better if you used honest means to push your agenda. Philip, you've lied repeatedly.
Mask mandates. Mask mandates not masks. 🤦♂️
"If mask mandates had efficacy"
They don't. Mask mandates don't work because they suppress the virus for everyone but the virus is still endemic. It doesn't ensure those capable of defeating the virus get immunity. It doesn't suppress the virus away from those vulnerable, since the virus remains endemic.
Mandates don't work. Name any state or nation with mask mandates that has better immunity now than we do?
Mask mandates do work. It's right there in one of the studies I sent you earlier that you claim to have read. Jesus fucking Christ, how is it possible you cram so much stupid into just one head? You're like a fucking goldfish.
Define "work".
Working is getting out of restrictions and our normal life with high immunity so the virus isn't causing problems. How do mask mandates achieve that end?
They are counterproductive as they prevent the right people from getting infected, postponing the infection until down the road. They don't prevent infections, they just delay them for everyone which is not working.
But if you don't have mask mandates then you can have more infections amongst the low-risk, but if you are high-risk you can be better protected than everyone else.
Utter nonsense. And worse than that, dangerous.
How is it nonsense? Or dangerous?
What is dangerous is making the vulnerable as likely to be infected as the low-risk. Its bloody counterproductive in fact which is why hospitalisations have ended up higher in nations with mask mandates than those without them.
The sooner the low-risk unvaccinated people get infected the better. That builds even more herd immunity than we already have, preventing it and ensuring the high-risk are as likely to be infected as the low-risk is stupid.
Indeed. What is dangerous to you about other people dying?
If I was wearing a mask while encouraging others not to then you'd have a point.
You don't. Until it was the law I was following my own advice and not wearing a mask. I knew I could reduce my own risk by wearing an FFP2 mask but I'm not worried about being vulnerable so I would rather take my chances with the vaccine being enough and save the masks for the vulnerable instead.
Maybe the best thing would be for the law to be changed so that people don't need to wear a mask provided they have "I don't give a toss about other people's lives" tattooed on their foreheads.
It would probably be a public service in the long run.
Wouldn’t it be more effective to simply state fund FFP3 masks for the vulnerable?
I do sometimes wonder why that hasn't been done.
I understand initially the idea of telling people to make their own cloth ones. But we really should have switched to public education about what the different gradings mean to enable people to make an informed choice.
The girls in my office have very stylish silk ones. Whether they are much use I have dared to inquire.
Quite a few have a pocket to insert disposable filters.
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
When life comes at you, it really comes at you.
I am so sorry to read that and I am sure each and everyone on this forum sends you their love and best wishes at this most difficult family time for you
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
I wonder if he will make an apology some time in his speech
It will be interesting to watch I content and tone
It would, only I'm off to a pub quiz just before eight this evening. I shall have to read the reports later on after I return.
Might as well enjoy all these little occasions for the rest of the week, before they get cancelled until next Easter.
Israel has announced that it is adding the UK to its "red list" of countries that residents are banned from visiting amid its concern over the spread of omicron.
The measures will be in place from Wednesday, and a senior Israeli health official confirmed the ban would also apply to Denmark and Belgium.
Johnson addressing the nation at 8 o'clock and for once his boosterism is exactly what's needed. Big push on 3rd jabs has to be the number one priority.
I wonder if he will make an apology some time in his speech
It will be interesting to watch I content and tone
If I was him I'd try something like that. Nothing to lose really.
The biggest lie of the year has to now be the vaccine programme.
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
"Boosters have been woeful" is massively overegging it. The JCVI are the root cause of the problem with their delay and vax the world / boosters aren't needed, and even then we are doing much better than the rest of Europe.
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
A relative made himself very unpopular with his workforce by forcing them to uses FFP3, noddy suits, gloves etc when handling fibre glass insulation on his building sites.
His theory is that he will be able to sleep in his old age, without hearing a lot of people coughing themselves to death, in his dreams.
Had exactly that sentiment when getting the old garage at our house demolished - a previous owner had lined it with asbestos cement sheeting which was deteriorating so I never used it except as a dump for junk. Very relieved when the chaps tooled up with noddy suits and a complete airlock and shower/changing room in their trailer.
The biggest lie of the year has to now be the vaccine programme.
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
Lie doesn't begin to cover it. We were sold vaccines as the route out of restrictions. If, with nearly 90% of everyone over 12 now having had at least one shot, we still end up back in another bloody lockdown - my God, what will the country say?
The biggest lie of the year has to now be the vaccine programme.
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
Lie doesn't begin to cover it. We were sold vaccines as the route out of restrictions. If, with nearly 90% of everyone over 12 now having had at least one shot, we still end up back in another bloody lockdown - my God, what will the country say?
I said at the time vaccines would not be our way out and I was shouted down
The biggest lie of the year has to now be the vaccine programme.
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
Lie doesn't begin to cover it. We were sold vaccines as the route out of restrictions. If, with nearly 90% of everyone over 12 now having had at least one shot, we still end up back in another bloody lockdown - my God, what will the country say?
I said at the time vaccines would not be our way out and I was shouted down
What other way out is there? Natural immunity would be too damaging and take far longer time.
I don't think people mean FFP3 do they? It's FFP2 that are the better ones, FFP3 aren't the equivalent to the US 95 from what I just Googled
No, FFP3 are better than FFP2 AIUI. See eg.
"The British Standard BS EN 149:2001 covers disposable filtering facepiece (FFP) respirators. FFP respirators are classified as FFP1, FFP2 and FFP3 according to the level of protection afforded as assessed by specified laboratory tests, with FFP3 offering the most protection. In order to aid the correct selection of ‘adequate’ RPE assigned protection factors (APF) have been derived, and for FFP respirators these are 4, 10 and 20 respectively. The APF is the ratio of pollutant outside the device to that inside the device and is defined by British Standard BS EN 529:2005 as the ‘level of respiratory protection that can realistically be expected to be achieved in the workplace by 95% of adequately trained and supervised wearers using a properly functioning and correctly fitted respiratory protective device and is based on the 5th percentile of the Workplace Protection Factor (WPF) data’. APFs are published by both BS EN 529:2005 and by HSE in its RPE guidance HSG53 (HSE 2005a). Table 1 shows the efficiency requirement levels for the three classes of filtering facepieces from British Standards, together with their assigned protection factors"
I certainly hope so as I've spent a morning rummaging around in a very dusty woodwork room in a FFP3!
A relative made himself very unpopular with his workforce by forcing them to uses FFP3, noddy suits, gloves etc when handling fibre glass insulation on his building sites.
His theory is that he will be able to sleep in his old age, without hearing a lot of people coughing themselves to death, in his dreams.
Had exactly that sentiment when getting the old garage at our house demolished - a previous owner had lined it with asbestos cement sheeting which was deteriorating so I never used it except as a dump for junk. Very relieved when the chaps tooled up with noddy suits and a complete airlock and shower/changing room in their trailer.
Those "kit" concrete garages are everywhere. The best bit are the roof tiles - nearly universally full of asbestos fibre...
The number of times I've told a friend that they are the proud owners of some asbestos......
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
When life comes at you, it really comes at you.
Very sorry to hear all that. Best wishes to all concerned.
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
By the way, my 34 year old friend says he can’t book his booster. Sounds like someone went early and they’ve shut it down for 30 somethings.
Can't book as in no slots or can't book as in the system says too young?
Think they have realised half the nation's under 40s are trying to book before tomorrow's official announcement.
Yeah. I fail to understand. As a 55yo I couldn't get an appointment before last Wednesday. How do they intend to ramp up capacity so quickly? Or are they going to open it up but with appointments in late January?
@Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".
For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.
That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.
I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.
The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
No, you're just attacking straw men now. The only point I'm trying to make is that masks work. This is in response to your repeated false assertions that they do not. At no point have I said masks should be mandated, I'm just trying to bring some truth in to usurp your lies.
You seem on the verge in the above post of saying that NPIs do, in fact, work. Alongside a separate argument which is saying that, to paraphrase, "they are bad BECAUSE they work".
Well, it's progress, I guess. I hope you'll stop with your anti-science premises now. I won't even attempt to tackle your argument that it's good to let this spread, not now at least.
No shit Sherlock that masks work. That's why I advocated for them last year.
I dispute that mask mandates work post vaccines because inhibiting those who are not bothered about catching Covid and putting them on the same footing as those who are bothered is a terrible idea.
The only way out of this is immunity. The best way to get immunity is vaccines, we've done that.
The second best way to get immunity is for those who don't care if they get infected, to naturally get infected before those who do care if they do.
Inhibiting the spread of the virus post vaccines is stupid. The sane solution is those who are bothered wear masks to protect themselves and nobody else does.
So you've gone on journey from being right about the facts of masks to being wrong about them. What do you want, part credit? Most people prefer to go the other way but horses for courses I guess.
If you were confident in your justification that masks shouldn't be mandated, why go around spreading misinformation about mask efficacy? Why lie?
I never said masks have no efficacy.
I said mask mandates are bad.
There's a difference. I've said that many times now. How many different ways do I need to say it?
'Sadly there is a bullshit idea that has been spread that "your mask protects others"'
'If mask mandates had efficacy, we should surely have studies demonstrating that by now. Where are they?'
You, just in the last few days. I remember older stuff too, but I'm not doing your homework for you a third time. You've been trying to get people to think masks don't work for several weeks. It would be better if you used honest means to push your agenda. Philip, you've lied repeatedly.
Mask mandates. Mask mandates not masks. 🤦♂️
"If mask mandates had efficacy"
They don't. Mask mandates don't work because they suppress the virus for everyone but the virus is still endemic. It doesn't ensure those capable of defeating the virus get immunity. It doesn't suppress the virus away from those vulnerable, since the virus remains endemic.
Mandates don't work. Name any state or nation with mask mandates that has better immunity now than we do?
Mask mandates do work. It's right there in one of the studies I sent you earlier that you claim to have read. Jesus fucking Christ, how is it possible you cram so much stupid into just one head? You're like a fucking goldfish.
Define "work".
Working is getting out of restrictions and our normal life with high immunity so the virus isn't causing problems. How do mask mandates achieve that end?
They are counterproductive as they prevent the right people from getting infected, postponing the infection until down the road. They don't prevent infections, they just delay them for everyone which is not working.
But if you don't have mask mandates then you can have more infections amongst the low-risk, but if you are high-risk you can be better protected than everyone else.
Work in that they reduce transmission of the virus. And, in the right circumstances, they can keep the R below 1. That's it. It's a perfectly simple fact.
Once again I'm trying not to involve myself in the argument you're making beyond that which is "is that even desirable?" You make your case well but I'll note that there are arguments against what you're saying too. But I'm not going to enter into those right now, especially not with you because you have a tendency to resort easily to fallacies and even lies. And partially because I would be exploring an issue where I haven't decided where I stand. And you are a very poor person to do that with, for the reasons stated above: I don't trust you not to lie.
The one thing that concerns me most about what you're saying is I think high incidence leads to higher chances of mutations.I haven't read into it or thought much about it, but it "feels" like it's a gamble. But again, I'm not pushing a point of view there. I need to know more facts.
Then you have a completely different and in my view faintly ridiculous definition of working.
Using your logic, lockdowns work, so we should be under lockdown still.
Why is suppressing cases the aim? Suppressing cases should only ever be a means to an end.
My definition for working would be getting to the other side and out of restrictions with as few restrictions, hospitalisations and deaths as possible.
If you end up with more restrictions which suppresses cases in the short term, but overall leads to more hospitalisations and deaths, then you have failed all three of my tests but passed yours.
Do you really think fewer cases in the short term, but more restrictions, more deaths and more hospitalisations over the long term is "working"?
The biggest lie of the year has to now be the vaccine programme.
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
Lie doesn't begin to cover it. We were sold vaccines as the route out of restrictions. If, with nearly 90% of everyone over 12 now having had at least one shot, we still end up back in another bloody lockdown - my God, what will the country say?
The country will "say" we like lockdowns. Steve Baker meanwhile will try to do something against it.
By the way, my 34 year old friend says he can’t book his booster. Sounds like someone went early and they’ve shut it down for 30 somethings.
Can't book as in no slots or can't book as in the system says too young?
Think they have realised half the nation's under 40s are trying to book before tomorrow's official announcement.
Yeah. I fail to understand. As a 55yo I couldn't get an appointment before last Wednesday. How do they intend to ramp up capacity so quickly? Or are they going to open it up but with appointments in late January?
Presumably not as far ahead as late January, but you do wonder if the under 40s are going to have to be shunted to after Christmas at least. I'm 45 and my own appointment isn't until Friday 17th.
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
When life comes at you, it really comes at you.
I’m so sorry. You have my best wishes.
I’m not sure I should do this (mods please delete this or ban me if I’m overstepping a line) but if you need any pro-bono employment law advice on the work re-org then DM me.
(Again - mods - if that’s advertising/solicitation (excuse the pun) huge apologies and please delete)
Johnson press conference at 8pm.... any ideas what that's about?
Resignation?
Would be good for Lab. if so.
I agree. So you are not one of these people saying Labour are only polling well now under SKS because BJ is shit?
You think LP polling well and Johnson imploding in shitness is a coincidence?
No, but BJO thinks (like me) that BJ is an asset for the Cons (cf their alternatives). And BJO is also of the Lab faction that thinks SKS is rubbish and a liability. So I was wondering how he reconciles these 2 views.
How can SKS be rubbish and a liability if he's polling miles clear of a Tory Party under their strongest leader?
Percentages of people who have had a 3rd dose of vaccine in England and Scotland
Experimental. Not to be trusted. The management take no all responsibility for the numbers in this item. The management take no responsibility. Your mileage will vary. May contain nuts. May contain nutters, May contain trained Marxist nutters.
I'm upset that no-one has said anything rude about this one.
By the way, my 34 year old friend says he can’t book his booster. Sounds like someone went early and they’ve shut it down for 30 somethings.
Can't book as in no slots or can't book as in the system says too young?
Think they have realised half the nation's under 40s are trying to book before tomorrow's official announcement.
Yeah. I fail to understand. As a 55yo I couldn't get an appointment before last Wednesday. How do they intend to ramp up capacity so quickly? Or are they going to open it up but with appointments in late January?
Presumably not as far ahead as late January, but you do wonder if the under 40s are going to have to be shunted to after Christmas at least. I'm 45 and my own appointment isn't until Friday 17th.
My wife is same age and she got appt next day. Check different postcodes?
Sitting here for CV19 booster. 😀 Son gets result of positive PCR test. 😱
Don’t need this.
Wife due to have CT scan for cancer investigation on Tuesday😬🤞 Father in law alas has days/ weeks left with lung cancer. 😔 Work having reorg to having to reapply for job. 😡
Comments
The last time the UK was at level four was in May"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59629916
(NB I'm usually wrong about anything to do with politics. I've decided that if I keep predicting new dates for the next lockdown then, as with those weird American cults that keep trying to prophesy the Rapture, it will never happen. No need to thank me.)
Anecdotal positives are coming thick and fast.
I meant, Boots etc are selling the FFP2 ones which are the ones I see most people wearing when they go for higher quality ones. And FFP2 I think are very effective, FFP3 moreso but not a huge difference for COVID from what I call.
I believe FFP2 is equivalent to 95 for the US?
N95 and FFP2 are similar kinds of respiratory masks. These masks supposedly protect both the wearer and people around them. The World Health Organisation cites studies which show the filtration systems of FFP2 and N95 masks are 94 and 95 per cent effective respectively. Their enhanced effectiveness has led to countries such as Austria and Germany making them a requirement on public transport. FFP3 masks are the most effective, followed by FFP2/N95, then surgical masks and, finally, cloth masks.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-are-n95-and-ffp2-face-masks
These look really interesting but unsure of effectiveness
FFP3 - The total leakage may amount to a maximum of 5% and they must filter 99% of all particles measuring up to 0.6 μm.
FFP2 - The total leakage may amount to a maximum of 11% and they must filter 94% of all particles measuring up to 0.6 μm
We're on the back foot again then. He'll announce stricter measures when it is too late.
Virtue signalling is just that.
https://twitter.com/PulpLibrarian/status/1154432150344732672/photo/1
I take it you haven't seen Dr Strangeglove?
I wasn't disputing that FFP3 is better, just that the "higher quality" mask that people are referring to in Boots etc is FFP2, not FFP3
If so I've got an estimate of about 90,000 cases by christmas day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7248188/
I could write for several pages on why. But I won't.
It will be interesting to watch I content and tone
His theory is that he will be able to sleep in his old age, without hearing a lot of people coughing themselves to death, in his dreams.
I was saying - and you've confirmed - that N95 is EQUIVALENT to FFP2. FFP3 is better still, that wasn't the point I was making.
Lockdown decree to follow next Saturday.
https://twitter.com/antonyshepherd/status/1153914452661723136
https://www.boots.com/the-body-doctor-reusable-antibacterial-mask-10285764
Good start then complacency and the boosters have been woeful
Its not going to say anything of real note.
Might as well enjoy all these little occasions for the rest of the week, before they get cancelled until next Easter.
The measures will be in place from Wednesday, and a senior Israeli health official confirmed the ban would also apply to Denmark and Belgium.
----
Racist.
I agree with complacency in the middle.
Mercedes came with a barrister on hand.
ENDS.
The number of times I've told a friend that they are the proud owners of some asbestos......
In unrelated news, Ant and Dec are entering Downing Street
https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1469998211863621636?s=21
How do they intend to ramp up capacity so quickly?
Or are they going to open it up but with appointments in late January?
Using your logic, lockdowns work, so we should be under lockdown still.
Why is suppressing cases the aim? Suppressing cases should only ever be a means to an end.
My definition for working would be getting to the other side and out of restrictions with as few restrictions, hospitalisations and deaths as possible.
If you end up with more restrictions which suppresses cases in the short term, but overall leads to more hospitalisations and deaths, then you have failed all three of my tests but passed yours.
Do you really think fewer cases in the short term, but more restrictions, more deaths and more hospitalisations over the long term is "working"?
Bahrain - Not Free
Azerbaijan - Not Free
Russia - Not Free
Turkey - Not Free
Qatar - Not Free
Saudi - Not Free
Abu Dhabi - Not Free
I’m not sure I should do this (mods please delete this or ban me if I’m overstepping a line) but if you need any pro-bono employment law advice on the work re-org then DM me.
(Again - mods - if that’s advertising/solicitation (excuse the pun) huge apologies and please delete)
How can SKS be rubbish and a liability if he's polling miles clear of a Tory Party under their strongest leader?
I wish you well in navigating through it and also best wishes.
Tower Hamlets is fucked, it looks like.