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BJ drops to MINUS 17 in latest ConHome satisfaction survey – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 2021 in General
imageBJ drops to MINUS 17 in latest ConHome satisfaction survey – politicalbetting.com

The December ConHome satisfaction ratings or just out and see a big drop for the prime minister who is now in deep negative territory in the latest monthly survey of what Conservative party members are thinking.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 17,710
    First as Boris will be (to the exit).
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    2nd rate...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975
    edited November 2021
    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975
    lizzie riding high, nice to be on her for next PM at 101
  • I'm not betting on the leaving of BoJo but I do think he's on a downward spiral and I wonder now what could save him, does anyone have any predictions?
  • Boris move to the left and his idiotic attempt to save Paterson has seen the inevitable consequence in this poll of members

    He has 'Ratnered' his brand and I doubt he will fight the next GE, but then I would 'caveat' that as he is an extraordinary and unique politician who may confound us all
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,163

    IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
    I think some parents just hate their kids.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    lizzie riding high, nice to be on her for next PM at 101

    Don't tell @HYUFD as he will not vote for her and has threatened to take his tanks and join Tice
  • Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    It's a survey of Tories, so maybe only a subset of the people are idiots.
    People are idiots though, as anyone who follows the public voting on Strictly can testify.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331

    Boris move to the left and his idiotic attempt to save Paterson has seen the inevitable consequence in this poll of members

    He has 'Ratnered' his brand and I doubt he will fight the next GE, but then I would 'caveat' that as he is an extraordinary and unique politician who may confound us all

    Entirely possible - but is it really the purpose of the PM to confound us all ?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,085
    BJ will jump the moment a decent (fat) advance is waved under his nose....either that or TMay's stiletto will hit him where the sun dont shine when the backbenchers finally get tired of him
  • Nigelb said:

    Boris move to the left and his idiotic attempt to save Paterson has seen the inevitable consequence in this poll of members

    He has 'Ratnered' his brand and I doubt he will fight the next GE, but then I would 'caveat' that as he is an extraordinary and unique politician who may confound us all

    Entirely possible - but is it really the purpose of the PM to confound us all ?
    Probably not but politics is anything but predictable
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,257

    does anyone have any predictions?

    Carrie gets binned off/scarpers.
    More financial shenanigans.
    N.O.M. at next GE.
    Javid launches a leadership bid that fails
    Hancock back in the cabinet as NI Secretary as punishment
    Shapps starts wearing a poppy in July
    Mad Nad will be back on the backbenches
    Sunak finally grows into those size 3 Crocs he's been keeping
  • I'm not betting on the leaving of BoJo but I do think he's on a downward spiral and I wonder now what could save him, does anyone have any predictions?

    In internal Conservative Party terms what will delay a move against him are the usual considerations: no-one wants to wield the knife and the fear that another would benefit more than them from the leader's fall.

    In terms of the public I am yet to be convinced this has moved beyond the normal midterm grumbling. The Boris show has at least one big [election-winning] performance left in it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    Quite a scoop:

    The E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that stops migrants before they reach Europe’s shores. A new investigation goes inside a secretive prison for migrants, controlled by one of Libya’s most powerful militias.

    https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1465079031809064960?s=20

    Tbh, good on them. It's exactly the kind of hard headed thinking we need to have.
    As ever the New Yorker is doing journalism

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe

    this image is... interesting. As is the section where it discuss the sale of prison labour in Libya. As an auction. In a market....

    image
    Who funded this? Is this the Italian funded first one, or the EuCo follow on?
    Read the article - it is a matrix of funding. All carefully indirect.

    Interesting that the EU has created the "Offshore Gulags" for immigrants that some people here are getting bent out of shape about in the UK context.

    Also in the article, the Libyan "Coast Guard" which is being funded by this - *shooting* at immigrants in boats....
    Or to put it another way, people who touch themselves inappropriately at the thought of the UK taking such actions but get bent out of shape about it in the EU context.
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone "bent out of shape". Just reading the article and asking questions.

    I am defending the borders of the EU
    You are mistreating immigrants
    He/She is running gulags, drowning and freezing the innocent
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    Dura_Ace said:

    does anyone have any predictions?

    Carrie gets binned off/scarpers.
    More financial shenanigans.
    N.O.M. at next GE.
    Javid launches a leadership bid that fails
    Hancock back in the cabinet as NI Secretary as punishment
    Shapps starts wearing a poppy in July
    Mad Nad will be back on the backbenches
    Sunak finally grows into those size 3 Crocs he's been keeping
    If you truly wished him ill, you'd be going for a majority of four, and Carrie still calling the shots.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    lizzie riding high, nice to be on her for next PM at 101

    V good. I could only manage 32/1
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,511
    I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380
    Nigelb said:

    Boris move to the left and his idiotic attempt to save Paterson has seen the inevitable consequence in this poll of members

    He has 'Ratnered' his brand and I doubt he will fight the next GE, but then I would 'caveat' that as he is an extraordinary and unique politician who may confound us all

    Entirely possible - but is it really the purpose of the PM to confound us all ?
    Looking at the history of the Prime Ministers we've had - that's arguably a Yes.

    Not sure it's a good thing. But seems to be a thing.

    Consider Blair - anyone bet on where he ended up?
  • Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    Except the only reason that anybody knows who Prince Charles is, is because of his ancestors and continuing that line.

    I'm a big fan of treating people as individuals and not responsible for the past, but if you're going to do that it isn't compatible with a monarchy.
  • Selebian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
    I think some parents just hate their kids.
    I think I remember reading about some twins in New Zealand called Benson and Hedges. I'm hoping it was apocryphal.
  • Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108

    BJ will jump the moment a decent (fat) advance is waved under his nose....either that or TMay's stiletto will hit him where the sun dont shine when the backbenchers finally get tired of him

    Trump hasn't got a book deal of his own AFAIK. Kushner has, though, I think.
    Of course, Trump may be turning them down on the grounds that he's still, or at least will again be, President.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,472

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    And this is why I'm no longer in the field. By my final year I couldn't wait for it to be over. It was such a huge error, I should have done physics where I have a really genuine interest and the optional modules were great. Though I imagine the social life would have been quite different.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021
    Dura_Ace said:

    does anyone have any predictions?

    Carrie gets binned off/scarpers.
    More financial shenanigans.
    N.O.M. at next GE.
    Javid launches a leadership bid that fails
    Hancock back in the cabinet as NI Secretary as punishment
    Shapps starts wearing a poppy in July
    Mad Nad will be back on the backbenches
    Sunak finally grows into those size 3 Crocs he's been keeping
    I presume there will be beatings and an immediate vote of zero for any leadership candidate who has dared to remove their poppy between Nov 11th and Nov 10th.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    Quite a scoop:

    The E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that stops migrants before they reach Europe’s shores. A new investigation goes inside a secretive prison for migrants, controlled by one of Libya’s most powerful militias.

    https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1465079031809064960?s=20

    Tbh, good on them. It's exactly the kind of hard headed thinking we need to have.
    As ever the New Yorker is doing journalism

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe

    this image is... interesting. As is the section where it discuss the sale of prison labour in Libya. As an auction. In a market....

    image
    Who funded this? Is this the Italian funded first one, or the EuCo follow on?
    Read the article - it is a matrix of funding. All carefully indirect.

    Interesting that the EU has created the "Offshore Gulags" for immigrants that some people here are getting bent out of shape about in the UK context.

    Also in the article, the Libyan "Coast Guard" which is being funded by this - *shooting* at immigrants in boats....
    Or to put it another way, people who touch themselves inappropriately at the thought of the UK taking such actions but get bent out of shape about it in the EU context.
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone "bent out of shape". Just reading the article and asking questions.

    I am defending the borders of the EU
    You are mistreating immigrants
    He/She is running gulags, drowning and freezing the innocent
    Interesting that Oz is stopping its PNG offshore processing centre, and will use Nauru only.

    Press reports say it has cost them "tens of billions" of dollars. No idea if that's true.

    Plus a derisory number of migrants actually processed in the dozens or hundreds I think
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    Acknowledging the past is a part of not repeating it in the future.

    When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?

    Indeed.

    There is a reason that anti-slavery societies are still going strong.

    And for an American connection (George Floyd and all) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZsYe5Uwg0
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,069

    Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.

    The Saj has a somewhat bombastic style which I personally find off putting but he does seem to get things done.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    OK.

    What would suggest as the most... interesting rocket fuel and oxidiser combination?
  • I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.

    Two out of four have done an absolutely fantastic job.

    The third I'm not sure about, the fourth is simply amusing because of how apoplectic she drives opponents.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
  • TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    Quite a scoop:

    The E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that stops migrants before they reach Europe’s shores. A new investigation goes inside a secretive prison for migrants, controlled by one of Libya’s most powerful militias.

    https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1465079031809064960?s=20

    Tbh, good on them. It's exactly the kind of hard headed thinking we need to have.
    As ever the New Yorker is doing journalism

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe

    this image is... interesting. As is the section where it discuss the sale of prison labour in Libya. As an auction. In a market....

    image
    Who funded this? Is this the Italian funded first one, or the EuCo follow on?
    Read the article - it is a matrix of funding. All carefully indirect.

    Interesting that the EU has created the "Offshore Gulags" for immigrants that some people here are getting bent out of shape about in the UK context.

    Also in the article, the Libyan "Coast Guard" which is being funded by this - *shooting* at immigrants in boats....
    Or to put it another way, people who touch themselves inappropriately at the thought of the UK taking such actions but get bent out of shape about it in the EU context.
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone "bent out of shape". Just reading the article and asking questions.

    I am defending the borders of the EU
    You are mistreating immigrants
    He/She is running gulags, drowning and freezing the innocent
    Interesting that Oz is stopping its PNG offshore processing centre, and will use Nauru only.

    Press reports say it has cost them "tens of billions" of dollars. No idea if that's true.

    Plus a derisory number of migrants actually processed in the dozens or hundreds I think
    Isn't a derisory number being processed the entire point of having offshore processing?

    Since people cease to make the journey that way, they cease to require to be processed anymore.
  • MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    And this is why I'm no longer in the field. By my final year I couldn't wait for it to be over. It was such a huge error, I should have done physics where I have a really genuine interest and the optional modules were great. Though I imagine the social life would have been quite different.
    Quite, particle physics gives you a Hadron.
  • MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    And this is why I'm no longer in the field. By my final year I couldn't wait for it to be over. It was such a huge error, I should have done physics where I have a really genuine interest and the optional modules were great. Though I imagine the social life would have been quite different.
    For my final year at University I took the Astrophysics option. At the end of the final lecture the lecturers had bought us all pizza, which was good of them, and the most exciting thing to happen was to see the Astronomer Royal shuffle along with his instant coffee jar.

    I suspect your imagination would have been accurate.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    And this is why I'm no longer in the field. By my final year I couldn't wait for it to be over. It was such a huge error, I should have done physics where I have a really genuine interest and the optional modules were great. Though I imagine the social life would have been quite different.
    You've probably earned far more money than me too (and you are younger). I still get the buzz when we get a good result. Thats how I know I am in the right job.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    Acknowledging the past is a part of not repeating it in the future.

    When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?

    Indeed.

    There is a reason that anti-slavery societies are still going strong.

    And for an American connection (George Floyd and all) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZsYe5Uwg0
    'When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?'

    Is not modern Libya, at least in part, part of the Barbary Coast? A notorious hive of slave traders.
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,461

    Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.

    Thats a very good point. Covid is still the biggest news and the fact that the Governement has immediately extended the booster programme so quickly will benefit them. I do think people forget that Covid has been the biggest challenge to our Government since WW2. If you compare Blair's first 2 years, nothing really happened in those years.

    I am still very surprised that SKS chose yesterday to do the reshuffle, obviously people on this site were aware of it, but it got very little coverage.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    OK.

    What would suggest as the most... interesting rocket fuel and oxidiser combination?
    Sounds like physical chemistry - not interested! I'm a medicinal/analytical chemist now...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,689

    Farooq said:

    Nadine has higher ratings than Nadhim?

    Just fucking end democracy now, the people are idiots.

    Missed you question last night. So in answer to "What is my favourite alkane?" - currently any dimethylsubstituted nonanoic acid, as part of a synthetic capsaicinoid project (which is limping along).
    Exactly what I thought you'd say! :neutral:
  • DavidL said:

    Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.

    The Saj has a somewhat bombastic style which I personally find off putting but he does seem to get things done.
    He was an absolutely fantastic appointment to Health Secretary.

    Whoever released the "Hand. Face. Arse." video deserves an OBE.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    Quite a scoop:

    The E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that stops migrants before they reach Europe’s shores. A new investigation goes inside a secretive prison for migrants, controlled by one of Libya’s most powerful militias.

    https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1465079031809064960?s=20

    Tbh, good on them. It's exactly the kind of hard headed thinking we need to have.
    As ever the New Yorker is doing journalism

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe

    this image is... interesting. As is the section where it discuss the sale of prison labour in Libya. As an auction. In a market....

    image
    Who funded this? Is this the Italian funded first one, or the EuCo follow on?
    Read the article - it is a matrix of funding. All carefully indirect.

    Interesting that the EU has created the "Offshore Gulags" for immigrants that some people here are getting bent out of shape about in the UK context.

    Also in the article, the Libyan "Coast Guard" which is being funded by this - *shooting* at immigrants in boats....
    Or to put it another way, people who touch themselves inappropriately at the thought of the UK taking such actions but get bent out of shape about it in the EU context.
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone "bent out of shape". Just reading the article and asking questions.

    I am defending the borders of the EU
    You are mistreating immigrants
    He/She is running gulags, drowning and freezing the innocent
    Interesting that Oz is stopping its PNG offshore processing centre, and will use Nauru only.

    Press reports say it has cost them "tens of billions" of dollars. No idea if that's true.

    Plus a derisory number of migrants actually processed in the dozens or hundreds I think
    Isn't a derisory number being processed the entire point of having offshore processing?

    Since people cease to make the journey that way, they cease to require to be processed anymore.
    The key question there is - What is the number of people currently trying the illegal route to Australia? Boat to drop off on the northern coast, that is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,069

    I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.

    Two out of four have done an absolutely fantastic job.

    The third I'm not sure about, the fourth is simply amusing because of how apoplectic she drives opponents.
    Cabinets are a team building exercise and most PMs seem to find it useful to have a Minister for stupidity who makes everyone else feel better about themselves. Its a morale thing, I think. After the departure of Williamson there was a vacancy and Mad Nad seems destined to fill it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,656
    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D
  • TimTTimT Posts: 5,188

    IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
    There was a Mark Spencer at business school with me. I wonder if it is the same ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380
    DavidL said:

    Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.

    The Saj has a somewhat bombastic style which I personally find off putting but he does seem to get things done.
    Lighting a fire under JCVI is definitely a good decision. The way it was done was also excellent - instead of publicly binning them, telling them that if they didn't report by date X, the matter would be handed to the national CMOs.
  • DavidL said:

    I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.

    Two out of four have done an absolutely fantastic job.

    The third I'm not sure about, the fourth is simply amusing because of how apoplectic she drives opponents.
    Cabinets are a team building exercise and most PMs seem to find it useful to have a Minister for stupidity who makes everyone else feel better about themselves. Its a morale thing, I think. After the departure of Williamson there was a vacancy and Mad Nad seems destined to fill it.
    Probably less harmful to have that role filled by the Secretary of State for Culture than the Secretary of State for Education too ...
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    DavidL said:

    Just as a general note, I'm normally very critical of Tories, and of the Johnson ministry in particular, but I think credit is due to them for their initial reaction to Omicron.

    They've acted quickly and decisively with action on the key interventions that can make a difference: travel restrictions and booster doses.

    Perhaps the bar had been set very low by previous poor performance, but I've been surprised by the change and it's been reassuring to both me, and my wife - who is normally much less forgiving than me of politicians' failings.

    The Saj has a somewhat bombastic style which I personally find off putting but he does seem to get things done.
    They call him Mr Offputting
  • RogerRoger Posts: 15,380
    Just reading the names is like the start of a John Carpenter movie.......
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
    No, same point: acknowledgment and, specifically, non-denial are what we are after.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    RobD said:

    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D

    Got to be better than posting yet more tweets based on the same initial SA GP's report...
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
    Used to work with a chap who went out with a girl called Caroline Puller.
    Found out Caroline's dad was called Richard.

    The grandparents must've been complete idiots.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Well, over the years, he has indulged in such stupid irrelevancies as cross-cultural relations, the environment and housing.

    And made some people very angry because he wrote letters to ministers asking about the same.
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,511
    edited November 2021
    I came on here this morning expecting to see hundreds, if not thousands, of repetitive posts on the extent to which the new mask-wearing mandate is being complied with in shops and on trains and buses. Yet nothing at all, I think. What's going on? Have PBers finally got bored with mask updates? If so, yippee.

    (I already regret this post if it provokes an outpouring of mask anecdotes).
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
    Successive governments that the twenty year old German may or may not have voted for very much make a point of apologising for the Nazis.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,308
    edited November 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    I do wonder if the Caribbean slave owners and slave traders realised they were creating the basis for future Black Republics.

    One thing I've never seen is an analysis as to what date the lives of slaves and their descendants became preferable to what they would have been in their ancestors had not been transported.

    It would be different dates depending on location of course - slavery and its aftermath was different between Missouri, Jamaica, Haiti and Brazil.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108

    IshmaelZ said:

    Last like Mark Spencer. Who the hell is he?

    ETA chief whip. Made such a name for himself he ranks below M&S in a google search

    Mark Spencer? His parents really weren't thinking when they named him.
    Used to work with a chap who went out with a girl called Caroline Puller.
    Found out Caroline's dad was called Richard.

    The grandparents must've been complete idiots.
    Used to come across a guy called Philip Green. He seemed to have got used to the sniggers, which persisted, to my knowledge, into his 40's.
  • I vote for Griti Patel.

    Yes! It's the r/ukpolitics officially unofficial politician gritter naming competition!



    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/r5j6ul/yes_its_the_rukpolitics_officially_unofficial/
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    edited November 2021

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    I do wonder if the Caribbean slave owners and slave traders realised they were creating the basis for future Black Republics.

    One thing I've never seen is an analysis as to what date the lives of slaves and their descendants became preferable to what they would have been in their ancestors had not been transported.

    It would be different dates depending on location of course - slavery and its aftermath was different between Missouri, Jamaica, Haiti and Brazil.
    Haiti?

    Did you add that later or did I miss it?
    Of course, AIUI, the USA tried to make sure Haiti didn't prosper. For obvious reasons.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
    Successive governments that the twenty year old German may or may not have voted for very much make a point of apologising for the Nazis.
    Perhaps more exactly - making it 111% clear that West Germany (and now a united Germany) was the Anti-Imperial-and-Anti-Nazi-Germany
  • RobD said:

    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D

    It was no discussion about AV and other voting systems.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 1,167

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    Acknowledging the past is a part of not repeating it in the future.

    When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?

    Indeed.

    There is a reason that anti-slavery societies are still going strong.

    And for an American connection (George Floyd and all) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZsYe5Uwg0
    'When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?'

    Is not modern Libya, at least in part, part of the Barbary Coast? A notorious hive of slave traders.
    Barbary Coast?

    Wasn't William Shatner in a series of that name? Quite entertaining as I recall.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,975

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    My takeaway from Trump and Johnson is that people don't rise to occasions or grow into roles; they are who they are. I don't think anyone is capable of a lifetime sustained fakery, so I sort of believe Charles. If he were playing a long game he would have been a bit less of a prominent supporter of the disgraceful, outmoded so-called "sport" of f*x h*nting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
    I thought that "fornicator and adulterer" used to be pretty much mandatory for heads of state?

    It still is for the French Presidency.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,298
    DavidL said:

    I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.

    Two out of four have done an absolutely fantastic job.

    The third I'm not sure about, the fourth is simply amusing because of how apoplectic she drives opponents.
    Cabinets are a team building exercise and most PMs seem to find it useful to have a Minister for stupidity who makes everyone else feel better about themselves. Its a morale thing, I think. After the departure of Williamson there was a vacancy and Mad Nad seems destined to fill it.
    Culture is something Britain is very good at. An example of soft power. Media is vital in the world we live in. And sport too matters.

    All 3 deserve a Cabinet Minister of real clout, intelligence and standing not the office joke. This government has cut spending on arts education thus styming opportunities for the young. Culture is not an optional extra. It is vital to a rounded education, an intelligent nation, a country's well being, a country which punches above its weight. That a government led by a man who boasts about his knowledge of the classics and had one of the best educations money can buy should appoint an ignorant dimwit like Dorries to the role is depressing.

    Why do we no longer aspire to anything beyond the second-rate at best?

    As for the Shadow Cabinet, pleased about Streeting and Philippson. Let's see what they make of their new roles. Cooper has been forensic in her demolition of Patel in Select Committees. But she now has the infinitely harder task of coming up with a migration/refugee policy which is both popular and effective. Is she up to it?

    As for Lammy, am in 2 minds about him. He can be very good on some things. But he can also be an arse on others. His recent statements about womens bodies and women "hoarding rights" like dinosaurs has marked him down considerably in my eyes.

    Starmer has not been good at choosing people so far. His initial instincts have been poor and he has had to make quite a few changes in 2 years. That is not a great sign of someone who is good at assessing people. May be it is because he felt forced to do so. I'm not sure about that. Still let's see.
  • @bigjohnowls

    Please explain :lol:
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
    Successive governments that the twenty year old German may or may not have voted for very much make a point of apologising for the Nazis.
    Perhaps more exactly - making it 111% clear that West Germany (and now a united Germany) was the Anti-Imperial-and-Anti-Nazi-Germany
    Well, perhaps the UK should take a leaf out of that book and make it very clear that we're now the anti imperialism and anti slavery Britain rather than commissioning reports that advised looking for the positive points of enslavement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    Acknowledging the past is a part of not repeating it in the future.

    When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?

    Indeed.

    There is a reason that anti-slavery societies are still going strong.

    And for an American connection (George Floyd and all) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZsYe5Uwg0
    'When I read that Libyans are auctioning imprisoned migrant labour. In markets... What does that remind you of?'

    Is not modern Libya, at least in part, part of the Barbary Coast? A notorious hive of slave traders.
    Indeed.

    Where's Lord Exmouth when you need him?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 99,680
    edited November 2021

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
    I thought that "fornicator and adulterer" used to be pretty much mandatory for heads of state?

    It still is for the French Presidency.
    But the President of France isn't Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

    I miss the days when we ousted Kings who wanted to marry divorcées.

    We need high standards of moral hygiene if we want to remain a Christian country.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572

    I came on here this morning expecting to see hundreds, if not thousands, of repetitive posts on the extent to which the new mask-wearing mandate is being complied with in shops and on trains and buses. Yet nothing at all, I think. What's going on? Have PBers finally got bored with mask updates? If so, yippee.

    (I already regret this post if it provokes an outpouring of mask anecdotes).

    Makes no difference to me as I have not stopped wearing a mask in shops and don't use public transport. Anecdotally in the campus shop everyone was wearing a mask (most students haven't been) but it was at 8.15, so they were mostly still in bed...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    Interesting bit of anecdata ...

    Moderna Booster Update: 8+ months

    People question long term data on the vaccine. I'm the longest term data there is at 20+ months post vax.
    8+ months ago I was boosted.
    I now had a 2nd LabCorp test my blood for antibodies, and I am STILL off the charts still at >2,500U/ml

    https://twitter.com/NealBrowning/status/1460630344672034824
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    I know it's only a subset of Conservative activists, but to have Truss, Frost, Trevelyan and Dorries as the top four suggests they have lost the plot.

    I'd think the same if an equivalent Labour survey in 2019 had Pidcock, Burgon, Abbott and Lavery in the top four positions - which was plausible back then.

    Two out of four have done an absolutely fantastic job.

    The third I'm not sure about, the fourth is simply amusing because of how apoplectic she drives opponents.
    Cabinets are a team building exercise and most PMs seem to find it useful to have a Minister for stupidity who makes everyone else feel better about themselves. Its a morale thing, I think. After the departure of Williamson there was a vacancy and Mad Nad seems destined to fill it.
    Culture is something Britain is very good at. An example of soft power. Media is vital in the world we live in. And sport too matters.

    All 3 deserve a Cabinet Minister of real clout, intelligence and standing not the office joke. This government has cut spending on arts education thus styming opportunities for the young. Culture is not an optional extra. It is vital to a rounded education, an intelligent nation, a country's well being, a country which punches above its weight. That a government led by a man who boasts about his knowledge of the classics and had one of the best educations money can buy should appoint an ignorant dimwit like Dorries to the role is depressing.

    Why do we no longer aspire to anything beyond the second-rate at best?

    As for the Shadow Cabinet, pleased about Streeting and Philippson. Let's see what they make of their new roles. Cooper has been forensic in her demolition of Patel in Select Committees. But she now has the infinitely harder task of coming up with a migration/refugee policy which is both popular and effective. Is she up to it?

    As for Lammy, am in 2 minds about him. He can be very good on some things. But he can also be an arse on others. His recent statements about womens bodies and women "hoarding rights" like dinosaurs has marked him down considerably in my eyes.

    Starmer has not been good at choosing people so far. His initial instincts have been poor and he has had to make quite a few changes in 2 years. That is not a great sign of someone who is good at assessing people. May be it is because he felt forced to do so. I'm not sure about that. Still let's see.
    Culture is also being handicapped by Brexit-related travel restrictions.
  • RobD said:

    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D

    It was no discussion about AV and other voting systems.
    DO NOT Google "Japanese AV idol" while you're at work!

    DO NOT! :lol:
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
    I thought that "fornicator and adulterer" used to be pretty much mandatory for heads of state?

    It still is for the French Presidency.
    But the President of France isn't Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

    I miss the days when we ousted Kings who wanted to marry divorcées.

    We need high standards of moral hygiene if we want to remain a Christian country.
    Henry VIII was a divorcee :lol:
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,298

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Aren't the speeches on such occasions written for them? With considerable input from the relevant Ministers and, probably, also the Barbados government?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    Interesting point and a good analogy. Not exactly a Royal Caribbean cruise...
    But should we expect a twenty year old German to apologise for the Nazis?
    My view has long been that once you get past the generation that perpetrated the crimes, one should no longer expect people to apologise for something they had no part of and which they could do nothing to stop. I don't expect the modern Spaniards to apologise for the Conquistadors, nor the Italians to apologise for the Roman Empire. If you could do nothing to prevent it then you should not apologise for it. Of course the obverse also applies. I do not see the point of being proud of the achievements of our ancestors. Things happened - for good and bad - and if we had no part in them then why should we take either credit or blame for them.

    This doesn't mean one should not express some form of regret that they occurred and endeavour to ensure they are not repeated but this should not involve any feeling of guilt or personal responsibility. It is meaningless.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,572
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting bit of anecdata ...

    Moderna Booster Update: 8+ months

    People question long term data on the vaccine. I'm the longest term data there is at 20+ months post vax.
    8+ months ago I was boosted.
    I now had a 2nd LabCorp test my blood for antibodies, and I am STILL off the charts still at >2,500U/ml

    https://twitter.com/NealBrowning/status/1460630344672034824

    Its possible that the vaccine programme will be three and done for most, at least until significant variants come along (if they do, I'm not convinced that omicron is that variant).
  • Mr. Eagles, ha. It was Meghan and her husband who flounced once they were told they couldn't be celebrities with a sideline in the odd royal duty, when they felt like it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    Educative thread on epistasis (our word for the day ?).

    https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1465453818921947139
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,511

    RobD said:

    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D

    It was no discussion about AV and other voting systems.
    DO NOT Google "Japanese AV idol" while you're at work!

    DO NOT! :lol:
    Yes, you tempted me. But I'm retired.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
    I thought that "fornicator and adulterer" used to be pretty much mandatory for heads of state?

    It still is for the French Presidency.
    But the President of France isn't Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

    I miss the days when we ousted Kings who wanted to marry divorcées.
    I miss the days when the response of the King to "You can't get divorced" was prompt, decisive institutional reform. Bleeding edge management technique, you might say.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    I do wonder if the Caribbean slave owners and slave traders realised they were creating the basis for future Black Republics.

    One thing I've never seen is an analysis as to what date the lives of slaves and their descendants became preferable to what they would have been in their ancestors had not been transported.

    It would be different dates depending on location of course - slavery and its aftermath was different between Missouri, Jamaica, Haiti and Brazil.
    Haiti?

    Did you add that later or did I miss it?
    Of course, AIUI, the USA tried to make sure Haiti didn't prosper. For obvious reasons.
    Added it later to include a French slave colony.

    Now you could also contrast the lives of the slaves and their descendants on Haiti compared with Martinique or Guadeloupe.

    It just strikes me that the current lives of tens of millions of slave descendants are primarily determined by what country their ancestors were transported to.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380
    Cyclefree said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Aren't the speeches on such occasions written for them? With considerable input from the relevant Ministers and, probably, also the Barbados government?
    I believe it is a mix. Race relations has been a thing that Charles has been making statements on since before it was fashionable. Remember the issue with the Brigade of Guards back in the 80s?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    I think, while it still has measurable detrimental effects on the descendants of the victims. And I'm afraid there is a direct line of causation between your ancestors and mine running a slaving based economy, and shooting George Floyd being more OK than shooting a white version of him.
    And Africans who enslaved other Africans? By repute the slave ships were buying already enslaved Africans on the coast.

    It just doesn't sit well for me. A bit like non-religious people getting married in church, and mentioning God in their vows, when they don't believe in God. Bit fake. I cannot apologise for what my ancestors did. I can try and make things better now.
    I don't think if it were me I would be expecting an apology, but just acknowledgment or at least non-denial. I unexpectedly infuriated a righty PBer the other day, can't remember who, by making the point that there isn't much to choose in terms of ill fortune between waiting for a death camp train in 1941 Germany and waiting to be picked up by a British slave ship on the 18th century Slave Coast. I assume he saw the latter as: free all expenses paid trade wind passage on a classic tall ship followed by guaranteed lifetime employment in a Caribbean paradise.
    I do wonder if the Caribbean slave owners and slave traders realised they were creating the basis for future Black Republics.

    One thing I've never seen is an analysis as to what date the lives of slaves and their descendants became preferable to what they would have been in their ancestors had not been transported.

    It would be different dates depending on location of course - slavery and its aftermath was different between Missouri, Jamaica, Haiti and Brazil.
    Mauretania was the last country to outlaw slavery, as recently as 1981.
  • Mr. Eagles, ha. It was Meghan and her husband who flounced once they were told they couldn't be celebrities with a sideline in the odd royal duty, when they felt like it.

    Wait until you hear what Prince Andrew gets up to.
  • I vote for Griti Patel.

    Yes! It's the r/ukpolitics officially unofficial politician gritter naming competition!



    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/r5j6ul/yes_its_the_rukpolitics_officially_unofficial/

    The Scrumming Ogles.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,380

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Huge moment. ‘An appalling atrocity,' says Prince Charles of transatlantic slavery. No British royal - or Prime Minister - has come as close to apologising for the 250 years of state-sanctioned exploitation and murder. #Barbados https://t.co/gMBibgB3QY

    https://twitter.com/axrenton/status/1465578624292212739?s=19

    Costs little, but I'm still not a fan. When/where do you draw the line? Should the Italians apologise for the Roman empire? How about the Egyptians enslaving the people of Israel?
    If you personally have done something wrong, then apologising is the right thing. When our ancestors did something to their ancestors, I'm not so sure.
    If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, you also don't revel in the glories of a country unless you partook at least in some small way.

    I'm ok with that, but not with those who celebrate their country's greatness without also feeling shame for her squalor.
    Thankfully we haven't constructed an honours system based around the British Empire under which much of the horrors of transantlantic slavery took place.

    We haven't, right?
    I was struck by Duke of Rothesay’s speech in Barbados. I cannot recall a member of the British Establishment being so clear on the disgraceful role played by said Establishment in the slave trade.

    Maybe he’ll not be such a poor monarch after all?
    Charlie does show occasional glimmers of membership of the human race, his brothers not so much. The cynic in me thinks that they're well advised and realise that the continuation of 'the Firm' means that they get with the programme. See also young bawheid's conversion to the green agenda.
    Charles is a very bad man, not only is he a fornicator and adulterer but....

    The Prince of Wales unwittingly triggered the royal family’s rift with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex when he speculated about the skin tone of their future children, a book claims.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prince-charles-rejects-claim-he-queried-baby-skin-tone-b9vmp2bbx
    I thought that "fornicator and adulterer" used to be pretty much mandatory for heads of state?

    It still is for the French Presidency.
    But the President of France isn't Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

    I miss the days when we ousted Kings who wanted to marry divorcées.

    We need high standards of moral hygiene if we want to remain a Christian country.
    Henry VIII was a divorcee :lol:
    The whole reason for the Church of England is that the Monarch can marry/divorce whoever he/she wants.

    Otherwise, might as well re-franchise with the Roman chaps....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,094
    The Anti-Sex League is at it again

    ‘Christmas parties and other social events in the festive period should not go ahead if they are not necessary in order to help slow the spread of the new Covid variant, one of the UK’s most senior health officials has suggested.

    ‘Jenny Harries, the chief executive of the UK Health Security Agency, urged everyone in the UK to cut down their social contact – even if only by a little – as fears grow that existing vaccines will prove less effective against Omicron than against other variants.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/30/omicron-variant-festive-socialising-uk-health-official-caution?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1638265451

    BTW that’s Jenny ‘masks are totally useless’ Harries
  • RobD said:

    Can't believe I missed the PB thread where everyone discussed their favourite alkane. Must have been a right humdimger.

    :D

    It was no discussion about AV and other voting systems.
    DO NOT Google "Japanese AV idol" while you're at work!

    DO NOT! :lol:
    It's fine, I once googled 'Sexy Fish' on my work laptop.

    After that, everything else is remarkably tame.

    If anyone is wondering, Sexy Fish is a restaurant I like and wanted to host a work related lunch at.

    https://sexyfish.com/
This discussion has been closed.