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Could Reform’s Tice surprise us on Thursday? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    Completely agree, would have been a poor leader
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,088
    Does all the admiration mean that Dr Rosena has got a new job?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited November 2021

    isam said:

    Rubbish numbers for BoJo in latest Redfield, Starmer will take over soon

    So rubbish Con are 2 points ahead of the useless nonentity you are fanboy for.
    As predicted, you will jump on this poll even though on average Labour are now ahead and indeed have been in all other polls released of late, as far as I am aware.

    BoJo's ratings way down, below Starmer's and losing its grip, the trend is clear, Labour up, Tories down.

    Resign and join the SWP as you'd be happier with the racists there
    Boris leads on Gross Positives, don’t be fooled by net scores
    Goalposts shifting as isam needs to find a new way to post "Starmer is crap"
    Not really, Mr Bet Inventor - I wrote this in March

    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-optical-illusion-of-net-ratings.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable

    The very poorest places like the Democratic Republic of Congo have more to worry about than Covid tbh.
    A different issue. All I'm pointing out is that the vaccine to fight this global pandemic has been distributed based not on where it would do the most good but on ability to pay. This will prolong it. It's inefficient.
    Sure, though like climate change we're pulling our weight with Covax iirc.
  • AlistairM said:

    maaarsh said:

    42,583 (+3.7%) 35 deaths (-18.4%) admissions (-11.2%)

    Of course that + number on the cases is 7 days on 7 days. Today's data, same as previous 2 days, is down on prior week. Case growth already lower than testing growth and should flip back green tomorrow or the day after.
    Anecdotally I am not hearing now of entire classes going down with Covid in schools. Is is the odd pupil here and there now, even in the primaries. Obviously I only know about a small area but very different from a little while ago where people seemed to be going down with Covid everywhere.
    I think that is to be expected as so many will already have had it. I know this has been predicted many times over the pandemic, but I do really think we have got there this time, and covid is running out of new targets.
    Hopefully omicron doesn't upset that picture too much.
    I don't have kids, but colleagues who do say the situation in local schools is mayhem, with teachers and pupils alike going down with it in turn and all Christmas and other school events cancelled as the "bubbles" resume to limit spread. On the upside, though, the same sources say that the symptoms are typically mild - often a bad headache and a high temperature for a few days, manageable with paracetamol/aspirin. Only one reported case ended up in hospital.

    Cautionary note: I've only talked to three parents and I don't have any involvement with education at all.
    There are enough off at my school to be notified, but not much more than usual at this time of year and far fewer than back in October. But, anecdote.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,088
    Hmmm.

    KICIPM sounds like an over-articulated race-based organisation.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited November 2021
    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Rubbish numbers for BoJo in latest Redfield, Starmer will take over soon

    So rubbish Con are 2 points ahead of the useless nonentity you are fanboy for.
    As predicted, you will jump on this poll even though on average Labour are now ahead and indeed have been in all other polls released of late, as far as I am aware.

    BoJo's ratings way down, below Starmer's and losing its grip, the trend is clear, Labour up, Tories down.

    Resign and join the SWP as you'd be happier with the racists there
    Boris leads on Gross Positives, don’t be fooled by net scores
    Goalposts shifting as isam needs to find a new way to post "Starmer is crap"
    Not really, Mr Bet Inventor - I wrote this in March

    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-optical-illusion-of-net-ratings.html
    I didn't invent any bets, I placed a bet with my friend and he kindly paid out.

    Was the prediction wrong? No, in fact I was right twice in a row. Perhaps if you posted something other than "Starmer is crap" you might win some money too
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,258
    1000 kids have been orphaned by Covid in Hungary


    https://twitter.com/Peter_PM_Marton/status/1465217421451612165?s=20
  • isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You're a troll. And not a very good one!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,168

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    What was that about megaphone diplomacy?

    The UK boasts “an economic model of, sometimes, quasi-modern slavery,” according to French Europe Minister Clément Beaune.

    https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1465372511961600000?s=20

    I am really not sure that you are getting the correct mindset. When foreigners make observations like this they are simply telling us hard truths and bringing home to us the consequences of our folly. When our politicians respond in kind they are being bombastic simpletons, simply denying the inevitable.

    Ask @Scott_xP for more detailed guidance.
    Quite. The reason these people are risking their lives to cross the Channel to Britain is because Britain is a quasi-slave economy and these people want to be, er ~~ checks notes ~~ slaves?

    Yes. That's it
    Both sides are just indulging in histrionics. The reason some people risk lives to get to Britain is because they have specific reasons to want to come here - like family or wider kin, or the English language - just as others want to get to Germany (mostly), or Sweden, or France etc. for their own reasons.

    You don't have to be a swivel-eyed right wing loon to think that the international asylum system might have a little more credibility if asylum seekers had to claim asylum in their first "safe" country they enter. Then having obtained sanctuary they should then apply to live in a country they prefer.
    That kind of two step process would have a lot to recommend it so long as there was a reasonable prospect of getting accepted in the preferred country, assuming the rationale was reasonable (I would see reuniting family as being reasonable).
  • Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    She's not a North London hand wringer. So that's a good start.
  • Taz said:

    Pagin TSE....Steps axe their remaining tour dates due to further Covid cases

    Seen them many many times, so long as Slade cancel on me on the 19th of December.
    I presumed Noddy Holder didn't do winters in the UK....imagine where ever you go for a 6 weeks all you hear is that bloody song. At least until very recently, apparently he was still making £200k a year out of the royalties, so I presumed he buggered off somewhere warm with the money.
    He left the band ages ago.

    This is Slade sans Noddy Holder.
    How can you have Slade without Noddy?
    On a side note ‘Slade in Flame’ is an excellent movie.
    I still have the Album!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,168
    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Troubling



    "Gabriele Steinhauser
    @gksteinhauser
    ·
    5h
    2/x These are super-early conclusions (1st known case in SA is from Nov 11) and will take time, and, sadly, more patients, to firm up. Covid 19 hospitalizations have jumped sharply since #Omicron was detected, but in line with what we saw during previous waves,


    Gabriele Steinhauser
    @gksteinhauser
    3/x that were driven by other variants. The main outbreak here also started among young people, which further distorts the early picture we're getting on severe outcomes. One thing that stood out to experts is the unusually high number of babies and toddlers in hospital."

    BUT it may just be nervous parents, important to note


    https://twitter.com/gksteinhauser/status/1465299210631323650?s=20

    I'm 99% sure I remember almost identical stories about every other variant too.
    Every time.

  • If my children were upset by something in my neighbours house then I'd comfort them and teach them that there's nothing to be afraid of.

    I'd parent my kids, not my neighbours.

    My mother's family who left the USSR in 1922 to live in Danzig were disturbed to see that the neighbour had put up a large swastika (later on he became the Nazi gauleiter in the city after the Germans took it over). Actually arguing with the neighbour seemed unpromising. But while they weren't enthusiastic about developments back home - that's why they'd left - they felt this shouldn't go unanswered, so my grandfather bought a Soviet hammer and sickle flag and they flew that, as a silent indication that the neighbour was Not One Of Us.

    In a much more minor key, I'm not sure what the correct response is to a nationalist neighbour with a giant St George's flag. Perhaps putting up a tricoleur would be a good wind-up? But in general I tend to live and let live with people you can't escape from.
    Surely the best counter to a St George’s flag would be a Welsh one:

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    eek said:

    I wasn't kidding earlier when I hinted that TFL are in serious trouble finance wise.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254463/Could-Bakerloo-line-SHUT-Fears-Sadiq-Khan-close-115-year-old-Tube-route-save-cash.html

    In theory there is a document saying what lines and services need to be kept open come what may.

    That list was never specified to begin with so the only services the TFL need to run is the Thames Clipper, the Woolwich ferry and um services unkown.

    Not surprising, when the Tories want to run down TfL so they can sell it off and privatise it.

    TfL is something we should be hugely proud of it and it were not for COVID it would be on the way to running a surplus. Private companies for the trains get unlimited money but TfL gets shafted. Because the Mayor is Labour.
    Urrrm, that just seems like a verbal diarrhetic reply to a problem with anything where Labour is in charge. TfL has had funding problems for decades; they have been wallpapered over. Unfortunately there comes a time when the wallpaper can no longer hide the gaping chasm behind. Covid has provided that time.

    TfL lost hundreds of millions - over a billion in some years - pre-Covid. It has expanded massively over the last couple of decades, and it might just have over-expanded itself.

    I am not *proud* of TfL. Why should I? I am not *proud* of the private companies that provide services to me. I am not *proud* even of the NHS - for many reasons, including the fact that that is the first moment you get into Burnham-style shitbaggery where the 'customer' matters less than the organisation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable

    The very poorest places like the Democratic Republic of Congo have more to worry about than Covid tbh.
    The combination of low vaxx rate, endemic HIV and nonexistent health care will make for a disaster in the DRC.

    The absence of reporters will mean that we won't see it on our screens.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited November 2021

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary?

    She never managed to lay a glove on Theresa May.
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    I think that increasingly likely especially as there are 3 years before GE24
  • TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    What was that about megaphone diplomacy?

    The UK boasts “an economic model of, sometimes, quasi-modern slavery,” according to French Europe Minister Clément Beaune.

    https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1465372511961600000?s=20

    I am really not sure that you are getting the correct mindset. When foreigners make observations like this they are simply telling us hard truths and bringing home to us the consequences of our folly. When our politicians respond in kind they are being bombastic simpletons, simply denying the inevitable.

    Ask @Scott_xP for more detailed guidance.
    Quite. The reason these people are risking their lives to cross the Channel to Britain is because Britain is a quasi-slave economy and these people want to be, er ~~ checks notes ~~ slaves?

    Yes. That's it
    Both sides are just indulging in histrionics. The reason some people risk lives to get to Britain is because they have specific reasons to want to come here - like family or wider kin, or the English language - just as others want to get to Germany (mostly), or Sweden, or France etc. for their own reasons.

    You don't have to be a swivel-eyed right wing loon to think that the international asylum system might have a little more credibility if asylum seekers had to claim asylum in their first "safe" country they enter. Then having obtained sanctuary they should then apply to live in a country they prefer.
    That kind of two step process would have a lot to recommend it so long as there was a reasonable prospect of getting accepted in the preferred country, assuming the rationale was reasonable (I would see reuniting family as being reasonable).
    I agree. International agreements would help, but they are reliant on fair minded international cooperation that seems sadly lacking at the moment.
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
  • Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
  • Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    She's not a North London hand wringer. So that's a good start.
    Not really if she is otherwise pretty crap.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kinabalu said:

    Not sure that I get the flap about flags. There is a difference between hoisting the England flag on the lawn every day and doing nazi salutes to having one because you identify with the nation / region. I've seen people with England / Scotland / Yorkshire / Kernow flags on their house or in their garden and it doesn't bother me that much.

    Anyway, the classy way to fly a flag is to make sure that people get the message you want to communicate. The Scotland flag design that covers the giant YES letters in Alex Salmond's garden for example...

    I agree. Not a big deal and each to his own.

    But back to where this started, Thornberry and the notorious tweet, that was a property on a normal street completely festooned with the St George. There was more flag than house. And not an international football tournament in sight.

    There is no way imo that most people wouldn't look at that and quite reasonably think "oh dear oh dear, numbskull little englander alert!"

    Now that could be unfair and be disproved on personal acquaintance. But still, c'mon.
    The problem we have is that national shame in England means that the St George's flag (and to a lesser extent the Union flag) have been hijacked by fascists. Why do we think negatively about someone with their national flag? Because usually its racist or its En-ger-land morons.

    Can't people take back control of the flag from knuckledraggers? Do other countries have this "oh no, not the flag" reaction?
    Not really. And I think we can take back control from the knuckledraggers. It won't appeal to some, but a modest amount of flagshagging by national leaders is part of that effort - contrarily, it's just embarrassing when some think it is embarrassing for leaders to be flanked by flags, when any international zoom call or press conference shows that as absolutely standard behaviour.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    Completely agree, would have been a poor leader
    Boo! Where's the "Dislike" button?

    I voted for her, and I think she would have done a good job. More to offer than Starmer. Her chance may still come, but Reeves seems to be in the box seat at the moment.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,168

    Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    In politics it's not all about swings from the last election, but they are important. On that score, Starmer is self-evidently more electable than Corbyn, and the Johnson 2021 variant is less electable than the Johnson 2019 wild-type. That should mean a fairly material swing towards Labour all things being equal.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    Completely agree, would have been a poor leader
    Yep, she's a decent rank and filer – not leadership material.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    edited November 2021

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary?

    She never managed to lay a glove on Theresa May.
    I had a lot of contact with her department over HIPS including 18 trips to London and she was utterly hopeless at understanding the subject
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408


    If my children were upset by something in my neighbours house then I'd comfort them and teach them that there's nothing to be afraid of.

    I'd parent my kids, not my neighbours.

    My mother's family who left the USSR in 1922 to live in Danzig were disturbed to see that the neighbour had put up a large swastika (later on he became the Nazi gauleiter in the city after the Germans took it over). Actually arguing with the neighbour seemed unpromising. But while they weren't enthusiastic about developments back home - that's why they'd left - they felt this shouldn't go unanswered, so my grandfather bought a Soviet hammer and sickle flag and they flew that, as a silent indication that the neighbour was Not One Of Us.

    In a much more minor key, I'm not sure what the correct response is to a nationalist neighbour with a giant St George's flag. Perhaps putting up a tricoleur would be a good wind-up? But in general I tend to live and let live with people you can't escape from.
    Surely the best counter to a St George’s flag would be a Welsh one:

    It's why I've long advocated this flag.


    It'd be badass, albeit harder to draw.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    eek said:

    I wasn't kidding earlier when I hinted that TFL are in serious trouble finance wise.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254463/Could-Bakerloo-line-SHUT-Fears-Sadiq-Khan-close-115-year-old-Tube-route-save-cash.html

    In theory there is a document saying what lines and services need to be kept open come what may.

    That list was never specified to begin with so the only services the TFL need to run is the Thames Clipper, the Woolwich ferry and um services unkown.

    I was well into my 40s before I twigged how the name Bakerloo was derived.
    They need to think of similarly pithy names for the Hammersmith & City and the Waterloo & City lines – both are typographically awkward and needlessly long and clunky.

    They should all be one word.

    City line

    and

    Waterloo line

    would work fine.
    Drain is fine
  • Leon said:

    eek said:

    I wasn't kidding earlier when I hinted that TFL are in serious trouble finance wise.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254463/Could-Bakerloo-line-SHUT-Fears-Sadiq-Khan-close-115-year-old-Tube-route-save-cash.html

    In theory there is a document saying what lines and services need to be kept open come what may.

    That list was never specified to begin with so the only services the TFL need to run is the Thames Clipper, the Woolwich ferry and um services unkown.

    TfL has a "£1.7 BILLION" funding gap but don't worry, Sadiq Khan is going to save "£60m over five years" by moving London City Hall to a dump in the middle of nowhere

    What a gesturing dickhead he is
    The government found£1.7bn quick enough for the fly-by-night private energy companies which folded.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    Bullshit. Total and unmitigated bullshit.

    Having vaccine feast in some places is the ONLY way to avoid vaccine famine in others.

    You seem to be under the misapprehension that vaccines are a zero sum limited supply. They're not. They can be scaled up depending upon investment and the only way to get that investment is to ensure that those who invest get the supply.

    By increasing our own supply we invest in boosting global supply. We don't shrink it.
  • kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    I don't think she would get passed lower middle management in any corporate environment. No gravitas.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Cooper-Balls about to rise like a phoenix from the ashes... :D
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    AlistairM said:

    maaarsh said:

    42,583 (+3.7%) 35 deaths (-18.4%) admissions (-11.2%)

    Of course that + number on the cases is 7 days on 7 days. Today's data, same as previous 2 days, is down on prior week. Case growth already lower than testing growth and should flip back green tomorrow or the day after.
    Anecdotally I am not hearing now of entire classes going down with Covid in schools. Is is the odd pupil here and there now, even in the primaries. Obviously I only know about a small area but very different from a little while ago where people seemed to be going down with Covid everywhere.
    I think that is to be expected as so many will already have had it. I know this has been predicted many times over the pandemic, but I do really think we have got there this time, and covid is running out of new targets.
    Hopefully omicron doesn't upset that picture too much.
    I don't have kids, but colleagues who do say the situation in local schools is mayhem, with teachers and pupils alike going down with it in turn and all Christmas and other school events cancelled as the "bubbles" resume to limit spread. On the upside, though, the same sources say that the symptoms are typically mild - often a bad headache and a high temperature for a few days, manageable with paracetamol/aspirin. Only one reported case ended up in hospital.

    Cautionary note: I've only talked to three parents and I don't have any involvement with education at all.
    There are enough off at my school to be notified, but not much more than usual at this time of year and far fewer than back in October. But, anecdote.
    My son has just returned from school moaning about the masks – says it's totally pointless (they don't wear them in the classroom, for obvious reasons) and just holds up the lunch queue as loads of children forget to put them on and therefore block the whole line while a mask can be found for them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    I suspect you’re right. It’s small steps and Labour has a huge amount of crazies in its online support and a fair few in its elected element but he seems to be, gradually, taking the right steps.

  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You're a troll. And not a very good one!
    All the best with your illness
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    BBC News saying Labour at War!

    And referring to the leader as Sir Keir! Passive aggressive nonsense, I blame Mad Nad
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You and Horse should just get a room
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
    Yes it’s interesting. Select committees are different beasts from shadow/ministerial positions. Hunt is similar, yet he is widely held to have been a poor minister. I do welcome starmer getting more centrists in his team. Labour wins in the centre, not on the far left.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You're a troll. And not a very good one!
    All the best with your illness
    You're a massive prick, that much is obvious. I'd never make light of somebody suffering mental health issues but you seem to do it constantly. What a pathetic individual you are.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    She has quite the fan club on here!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable

    The very poorest places like the Democratic Republic of Congo have more to worry about than Covid tbh.
    A different issue. All I'm pointing out is that the vaccine to fight this global pandemic has been distributed based not on where it would do the most good but on ability to pay. This will prolong it. It's inefficient.
    Sure, though like climate change we're pulling our weight with Covax iirc.
    I'm not having a go at "us" as such. I'm just saying this is a pretty dumb way to handle vaccination in the fight against a global pandemic for which vaccines are the main weapon.
  • isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You and Horse should just get a room
    You won't have to worry, isam on the ignore list after comments on my mental health issues.
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
    I am very neutral on the subject as to whether he will be PM, but I think you massively underestimate him. "Out of touch" seems a little misplaced coming from Boris PfPeppaPig Johnson's No. 1 fanboy.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    She has quite the fan club on here!
    She lacks, for me, the sheer phwoar factor of the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    For countries which do not have the same vaccination percentages that we do, what has been the limiting factors? Vaccine availability? Distribution? Take-up? Anti-vax stupidity?

    If we take South Africa as an example, then we see a country that has had a terrible time with AIDS, partially because of previous governments' evil denigration of the HIV/AIDS link and treatments, particularly under Mbeki. They behaved poorly over the AZ vaccine.

    Some of these countries are having a vaccine 'famine' not because of evil western countries, but because of the reluctance of the population to get vaccinated, and their poor (at best) leadership.

    You would have these countries not using vaccines they are given, whilst our people - where there is a demand - go unvaccinated. That's the quickest way for a government to be thrown out. Which is probably why you are advising it ...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    She's not a North London hand wringer. So that's a good start.
    Is there something in particular that you don't like about north Londoners, or is it just old-fashioned northern prejudice?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You're a troll. And not a very good one!
    All the best with your illness
    You're a massive prick, that much is obvious. I'd never make light of somebody suffering mental health issues but you seem to do it constantly. What a pathetic individual you are.
    Who’s making light of it? I don’t want to get into ding dongs with vulnerable people who can abuse me but I have to tiptoe around because they’re delicate
  • My issue with Nandy is that she just doesn't come across particularly strongly, she's competent and knows her stuff but she'd be a non-entity as a leader. Ideas yes, leadership, no
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
    I am very neutral on the subject as to whether he will be PM, but I think you massively underestimate him. "Out of touch" seems a little misplaced coming from Boris PfPeppaPig Johnson's No. 1 fanboy.
    Peppa Pig is relevant to not just our household (my kids love Peppa Pig) but possibly hundreds of millions of families globally.

    The fact you think Peppa is out of touch says it all. No wonder you're such a terrible judge of character.
  • Sorry, is the suggestion that Peppa Pig was actually a success for the PM, is this the angle we're going with now
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    eek said:

    I wasn't kidding earlier when I hinted that TFL are in serious trouble finance wise.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254463/Could-Bakerloo-line-SHUT-Fears-Sadiq-Khan-close-115-year-old-Tube-route-save-cash.html

    In theory there is a document saying what lines and services need to be kept open come what may.

    That list was never specified to begin with so the only services the TFL need to run is the Thames Clipper, the Woolwich ferry and um services unkown.

    Not surprising, when the Tories want to run down TfL so they can sell it off and privatise it.

    TfL is something we should be hugely proud of it and it were not for COVID it would be on the way to running a surplus. Private companies for the trains get unlimited money but TfL gets shafted. Because the Mayor is Labour.
    I really don’t know enough to say one way or the other but it really isn’t surprising that a network dependent on commuters is in trouble when the government has been encouraging WFH for more than 18 months.
    I also think that a short term deficit like that should receive government assistance to keep an essential service going.
    The longer term is much more complicated. If there is to be reduced demand going forward costs clearly have to be cut. Politicians of all stripes trying to make political capital out of this is not what is needed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    I don't think she would get passed lower middle management in any corporate environment. No gravitas.
    That may be so, but I think you are overestimating the ability of corporate environments to filter out those with no gravitas from senior positions. Many a non-entity can rise high.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    I don't think she would get passed lower middle management in any corporate environment. No gravitas.
    Shrill?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
    Yes it’s interesting. Select committees are different beasts from shadow/ministerial positions. Hunt is similar, yet he is widely held to have been a poor minister. I do welcome starmer getting more centrists in his team. Labour wins in the centre, not on the far left.
    I think he was an excellent Health Secretary. Culture Secretary maybe not so much.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    She has quite the fan club on here!
    She lacks, for me, the sheer phwoar factor of the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    She also has a big fan club on PB, with you perhaps a strong candidate for president!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    DavidL said:

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
    Yes it’s interesting. Select committees are different beasts from shadow/ministerial positions. Hunt is similar, yet he is widely held to have been a poor minister. I do welcome starmer getting more centrists in his team. Labour wins in the centre, not on the far left.
    I think he was an excellent Health Secretary. Culture Secretary maybe not so much.
    Was that a general opinion (at health)?
  • Sorry, is the suggestion that Peppa Pig was actually a success for the PM, is this the angle we're going with now

    Well I said on the day that Peppa Pig is huge for almost any household with children or grandchildren, not just in this country but around the globe too.

    It wouldn't surprise me if people mocking the PM for referencing Peppa Pig backfires and makes the PM seem in touch and his critics out of touch.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
    I am very neutral on the subject as to whether he will be PM, but I think you massively underestimate him. "Out of touch" seems a little misplaced coming from Boris PfPeppaPig Johnson's No. 1 fanboy.
    Putting to one side whether the Labour Party is right or wrong on the timing of the exit wave. As someone said earlier, he is treading a very dangerous line setting up the Labour Party as the party of masks, lockdowns and travel bans.

    If he continues down that path, it will come to be seen as a fatal political misjudgment, because as has been pointed out, there appears to be more than anecdotal overlap between the lost Labour voters he needs to regain and the It’s Time To Get On With Life attitude.

    It underlines to me in fact that the man does not have a sharp enough political antenna to win office. He designed the debacle of Labour’s post referendum Brexit policy after all.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Well he’s losing on the measure to a PM that’s in a hole. I had a billion pounds at 8/1 with a mate that Sir Keir would win Best PM this week w R&W too, bah
    You're a troll. And not a very good one!
    All the best with your illness
    Really? I mean really? You are better than this.
  • DavidL said:

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
    Yes it’s interesting. Select committees are different beasts from shadow/ministerial positions. Hunt is similar, yet he is widely held to have been a poor minister. I do welcome starmer getting more centrists in his team. Labour wins in the centre, not on the far left.
    I think he was an excellent Health Secretary. Culture Secretary maybe not so much.
    Was that a general opinion (at health)?
    Since he ran against Boris for the leadership.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    isam said:

    BBC News saying Labour at War!

    And referring to the leader as Sir Keir! Passive aggressive nonsense, I blame Mad Nad


    I've never understood Kina's opposition to that – indeed the BBC and the quality press HAVE to refer to him on second mention as Sir Keir as that is the correct style for the honorific.
  • Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
    I am very neutral on the subject as to whether he will be PM, but I think you massively underestimate him. "Out of touch" seems a little misplaced coming from Boris PfPeppaPig Johnson's No. 1 fanboy.
    Peppa Pig is relevant to not just our household (my kids love Peppa Pig) but possibly hundreds of millions of families globally.

    The fact you think Peppa is out of touch says it all. No wonder you're such a terrible judge of character.
    lol. I've made my living (a very good one) from judging character. I can judge yours pretty well: A sad, frustrated, gullible, silly little keyboard warrior who loves politics but clearly knows as much about the real world as Peppa Pig on a bad day in Peppa Pigworld . Have a nice evening Phil. Sorry I upset you about Peppa (not real you know!!).
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Weirdly, Peppa Pig is actually on our telly now. No idea why.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sorry, is the suggestion that Peppa Pig was actually a success for the PM, is this the angle we're going with now

    Well I said on the day that Peppa Pig is huge for almost any household with children or grandchildren, not just in this country but around the globe too.

    It wouldn't surprise me if people mocking the PM for referencing Peppa Pig backfires and makes the PM seem in touch and his critics out of touch.
    “I think they will take a bit of a battering, actually,” he [38 y.o. tory party member] says, when stopped while walking his dog, Fleur, to Costa Coffee on the high street.

    “I was saying to my wife the other day that when he initially got in, I think he was quite endearing.

    “He initially came across as a man of the people, and I think people are now getting a bit more clued up to what he’s actually like.”

    Top of the list of Tory gaffes is Mr Johnson’s speech to the CBI conference last week, in which the Prime Minister mislaid his notes and spoke at length about his recent visit to Peppa Pig World.

    “More than anything else, it was just cringey. I felt really awkward for him,” Mr Barfield says.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/11/28/blue-wall-tories-could-give-boris-bloody-nose-bexley/

    It's not "referencing" PP that's the prob, it's doing it in a speech to a serious non-after-dinner audience
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    For countries which do not have the same vaccination percentages that we do, what has been the limiting factors? Vaccine availability? Distribution? Take-up? Anti-vax stupidity?

    If we take South Africa as an example, then we see a country that has had a terrible time with AIDS, partially because of previous governments' evil denigration of the HIV/AIDS link and treatments, particularly under Mbeki. They behaved poorly over the AZ vaccine.

    Some of these countries are having a vaccine 'famine' not because of evil western countries, but because of the reluctance of the population to get vaccinated, and their poor (at best) leadership.

    You would have these countries not using vaccines they are given, whilst our people - where there is a demand - go unvaccinated. That's the quickest way for a government to be thrown out. Which is probably why you are advising it ...
    Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest. And it's not an 'evil west' observation I'm making. There are obviously domestic political imperatives in play and commercial ones too. But put it all together and you have an overall approach to a global pandemic that makes little sense for anybody apart from Pfizer & Co.
  • The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres says he is "deeply concerned" by travel restrictions being imposed on southern African countries to halt the spread of the Omicron variant.

    Guterres says he's worried about the "isolation" of southern African countries as a result of the restrictions. The UK, US and EU members are among countries that have imposed curbs on travel to the region.

    "The people of Africa cannot be blamed for the immorally low level of vaccinations available in Africa - and they should not be penalized for identifying and sharing crucial science and health information with the world," he says.

    South Africa's president says he is is "deeply disappointed" by the travel curbs, while Malawi's president has accused western countries of "Afrophobia".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited November 2021

    The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres says he is "deeply concerned" by travel restrictions being imposed on southern African countries to halt the spread of the Omicron variant.

    Guterres says he's worried about the "isolation" of southern African countries as a result of the restrictions. The UK, US and EU members are among countries that have imposed curbs on travel to the region.

    "The people of Africa cannot be blamed for the immorally low level of vaccinations available in Africa - and they should not be penalized for identifying and sharing crucial science and health information with the world," he says.

    South Africa's president says he is is "deeply disappointed" by the travel curbs, while Malawi's president has accused western countries of "Afrophobia".

    Did we have similar concerns raised by the UN when the UK was treated the same way at the end of last year?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    My vague impression was she came across quite strongly for the 2020 leadership contest, but hasn't really had much particular to shine with since, though she also hasn't fallen into any bear traps. I don't think that that I find her quite attractive has biased my view, as I would be most disappointed in myself were that so.
    She has quite the fan club on here!
    She lacks, for me, the sheer phwoar factor of the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    She also has a big fan club on PB, with you perhaps a strong candidate for president!
    I wish I could pretend my interest was inspired by politics, or betting.

    I am a Lancastrian by birth, though. That must be it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    Weirdly, Peppa Pig is actually on our telly now. No idea why.

    To clarify, this is the 'real' Peppa rather than the PM.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Sorry, is the suggestion that Peppa Pig was actually a success for the PM, is this the angle we're going with now

    Well I said on the day that Peppa Pig is huge for almost any household with children or grandchildren, not just in this country but around the globe too.

    It wouldn't surprise me if people mocking the PM for referencing Peppa Pig backfires and makes the PM seem in touch and his critics out of touch.
    “I think they will take a bit of a battering, actually,” he [38 y.o. tory party member] says, when stopped while walking his dog, Fleur, to Costa Coffee on the high street.

    “I was saying to my wife the other day that when he initially got in, I think he was quite endearing.

    “He initially came across as a man of the people, and I think people are now getting a bit more clued up to what he’s actually like.”

    Top of the list of Tory gaffes is Mr Johnson’s speech to the CBI conference last week, in which the Prime Minister mislaid his notes and spoke at length about his recent visit to Peppa Pig World.

    “More than anything else, it was just cringey. I felt really awkward for him,” Mr Barfield says.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/11/28/blue-wall-tories-could-give-boris-bloody-nose-bexley/

    It's not "referencing" PP that's the prob, it's doing it in a speech to a serious non-after-dinner audience
    As if the only audience is the one in the room.

    I seem to recall a certain leader of the Remain campaign telling an assembled group of business leaders that Brexit would be bad because wages would go up. It's a good job that message never left the room he was speaking to at the time, isn't it ...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021
    RobD said:

    The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres says he is "deeply concerned" by travel restrictions being imposed on southern African countries to halt the spread of the Omicron variant.

    Guterres says he's worried about the "isolation" of southern African countries as a result of the restrictions. The UK, US and EU members are among countries that have imposed curbs on travel to the region.

    "The people of Africa cannot be blamed for the immorally low level of vaccinations available in Africa - and they should not be penalized for identifying and sharing crucial science and health information with the world," he says.

    South Africa's president says he is is "deeply disappointed" by the travel curbs, while Malawi's president has accused western countries of "Afrophobia".

    Did we have similar concerns raised by the UN when the UK was treated the same way at the end of last year?
    There does seem to be a big double standard. China travel bans, that's racist (then in hindsight, why were countries so stupid not to do earlier), UK travel ban, not racist, India travel ban not racist (then in hindsight, why were countries so stupid not to do earlier), Southern Africa ban, racist and premature.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sorry, is the suggestion that Peppa Pig was actually a success for the PM, is this the angle we're going with now

    Well I said on the day that Peppa Pig is huge for almost any household with children or grandchildren, not just in this country but around the globe too.

    It wouldn't surprise me if people mocking the PM for referencing Peppa Pig backfires and makes the PM seem in touch and his critics out of touch.
    “I think they will take a bit of a battering, actually,” he [38 y.o. tory party member] says, when stopped while walking his dog, Fleur, to Costa Coffee on the high street.

    “I was saying to my wife the other day that when he initially got in, I think he was quite endearing.

    “He initially came across as a man of the people, and I think people are now getting a bit more clued up to what he’s actually like.”

    Top of the list of Tory gaffes is Mr Johnson’s speech to the CBI conference last week, in which the Prime Minister mislaid his notes and spoke at length about his recent visit to Peppa Pig World.

    “More than anything else, it was just cringey. I felt really awkward for him,” Mr Barfield says.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/11/28/blue-wall-tories-could-give-boris-bloody-nose-bexley/

    It's not "referencing" PP that's the prob, it's doing it in a speech to a serious non-after-dinner audience
    As if the only audience is the one in the room.

    I seem to recall a certain leader of the Remain campaign telling an assembled group of business leaders that Brexit would be bad because wages would go up. It's a good job that message never left the room he was speaking to at the time, isn't it ...
    No, but part of the wider audience is Mr Barfield

    Calling it now: tories will hold but with a seriously, wake-up-call reduced maj
  • Google, Microsoft, Adobe, IBM, Palo Alto Networks, and now Twitter run by CEOs who grew up in India.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Cooper nearly confirmed as Home Office, excellent

    Really?

    Am I the only one who remembers her near 5 year tenure as Shadow Home Secretary and she was dire?
    She's been doing well on the select committee
    Yes it’s interesting. Select committees are different beasts from shadow/ministerial positions. Hunt is similar, yet he is widely held to have been a poor minister. I do welcome starmer getting more centrists in his team. Labour wins in the centre, not on the far left.
    I think he was an excellent Health Secretary. Culture Secretary maybe not so much.
    Was that a general opinion (at health)?
    Think so. I seem to recall even @Foxy speaking relatively well of him ( compared to the other idiots who had been health Secretary). He was brave enough to face down the junior doctors too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    For countries which do not have the same vaccination percentages that we do, what has been the limiting factors? Vaccine availability? Distribution? Take-up? Anti-vax stupidity?

    If we take South Africa as an example, then we see a country that has had a terrible time with AIDS, partially because of previous governments' evil denigration of the HIV/AIDS link and treatments, particularly under Mbeki. They behaved poorly over the AZ vaccine.

    Some of these countries are having a vaccine 'famine' not because of evil western countries, but because of the reluctance of the population to get vaccinated, and their poor (at best) leadership.

    You would have these countries not using vaccines they are given, whilst our people - where there is a demand - go unvaccinated. That's the quickest way for a government to be thrown out. Which is probably why you are advising it ...
    Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest. And it's not an 'evil west' observation I'm making. There are obviously domestic political imperatives in play and commercial ones too. But put it all together and you have an overall approach to a global pandemic that makes little sense for anybody apart from Pfizer & Co.
    "Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest."

    Can you provide some figures for that assertion, please?
  • Mirror reporting Lammy shadow foreign secretary and Nandy to shadow Gove
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Lady Nugee is the new Shadow Home Secretary.

    Fantastic appointment.

    Ha ha. She’s proper rubbish. Matron from the carry on films. 🤣
    That's what I love about PB. The sophisticated political insight.
    Over the weekend I was getting worried we might get a Labour government. Looks like Starmer has put that worry to death today 🙂
    If that is your idea of a witty repost you might be disappointed to know I am a (lapsed) Tory. If you are worried about a Labour government you should be concerned that Starmer might be putting serious people in shadow cabinet positions and making Johnson's government look even more lightweight and ridiculous than it does already. Surprised he hasn't done it before tbh. If he brings in Cooper and other people that don't scare floating voters then Peppa Pig might get the chance for a new full time brand ambassador
    This is a serious repost. Cooper ain’t no heavy weight, she just been around a long time that’s all. Don’t you think Cooper sounds horribly full of herself and that’s the reason Labour lose, too many people like that? Good politicians aren’t shouty or sharp and aggressive. Vince Cable never was, nor Nick Clegg. You’ve just got to calmly make the right case.
    You mention good politicians. Why do you then talk about Vince Cable and Nick Clegg?
    1. You clearly show a bias.
    2. You can’t spell fyzicks.
    3. I won’t even bother answering you!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Lady Nugee is the new Shadow Home Secretary.

    Fantastic appointment.

    Ha ha. She’s proper rubbish. Matron from the carry on films. 🤣
    That's what I love about PB. The sophisticated political insight.
    Over the weekend I was getting worried we might get a Labour government. Looks like Starmer has put that worry to death today 🙂
    If that is your idea of a witty repost you might be disappointed to know I am a (lapsed) Tory. If you are worried about a Labour government you should be concerned that Starmer might be putting serious people in shadow cabinet positions and making Johnson's government look even more lightweight and ridiculous than it does already. Surprised he hasn't done it before tbh. If he brings in Cooper and other people that don't scare floating voters then Peppa Pig might get the chance for a new full time brand ambassador
    This is a serious repost. Cooper ain’t no heavy weight, she just been around a long time that’s all. Don’t you think Cooper sounds horribly full of herself and that’s the reason Labour lose, too many people like that? Good politicians aren’t shouty or sharp and aggressive. Vince Cable never was, nor Nick Clegg. You’ve just got to calmly make the right case.
    You mention good politicians. Why do you then talk about Vince Cable and Nick Clegg?
    1. You clearly show a bias.
    2. You can’t spell fyzicks.
    3. I won’t even bother answering you!
  • I would support a Cameron Government over the current lot by a country mile
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Labour is 26 points behind - Starmer is crap

    Labour is 2 points ahead - Starmer is crap

    Starmer beats BoJo as best PM - Starmer is crap

    A strange pattern

    What's strange about it? It seems like a pretty consistent pattern.

    It doesn't matter what the polls say, Starmer being crap isn't related to midterm polls.

    Corbyn's Labour were ahead in the polls for most of March to July 2019, until Boris replaced May as PM.

    16/4/19 and 21/5/19 Corbyn's Labour was 10 points in the lead.

    Corbyn was crap throughout, even when 10 points in the lead he was still crap.
    Corbyn was crap. Starmer isn't. He is gradually steering Labour back into contention. Your mate The Clown is helping him, and will continue to help him. My hope is that the Tories realise in time to ditch Johnson and get a person in who is vaguely suitable for high office.
    We'll see.

    I think Starmer is a crap, out of touch, disingenuous London Labour lefty. I am more confident he'll never be PM than I was with Ed Miliband.

    Time will tell who is right.
    I am very neutral on the subject as to whether he will be PM, but I think you massively underestimate him. "Out of touch" seems a little misplaced coming from Boris PfPeppaPig Johnson's No. 1 fanboy.
    Though people sometimes say otherwise, I genuinely don't think the public really care in practice if someone is out of touch or not.

    Being for the people rather than of the people matters, and there's not necessarily any logic as to who the public will consider to be best placed for the former.
  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not sure that I get the flap about flags. There is a difference between hoisting the England flag on the lawn every day and doing nazi salutes to having one because you identify with the nation / region. I've seen people with England / Scotland / Yorkshire / Kernow flags on their house or in their garden and it doesn't bother me that much.

    Anyway, the classy way to fly a flag is to make sure that people get the message you want to communicate. The Scotland flag design that covers the giant YES letters in Alex Salmond's garden for example...

    I agree. Not a big deal and each to his own.

    But back to where this started, Thornberry and the notorious tweet, that was a property on a normal street completely festooned with the St George. There was more flag than house. And not an international football tournament in sight.

    There is no way imo that most people wouldn't look at that and quite reasonably think "oh dear oh dear, numbskull little englander alert!"

    Now that could be unfair and be disproved on personal acquaintance. But still, c'mon.
    The problem we have is that national shame in England means that the St George's flag (and to a lesser extent the Union flag) have been hijacked by fascists. Why do we think negatively about someone with their national flag? Because usually its racist or its En-ger-land morons.

    Can't people take back control of the flag from knuckledraggers? Do other countries have this "oh no, not the flag" reaction?
    Not really. And I think we can take back control from the knuckledraggers. It won't appeal to some, but a modest amount of flagshagging by national leaders is part of that effort - contrarily, it's just embarrassing when some think it is embarrassing for leaders to be flanked by flags, when any international zoom call or press conference shows that as absolutely standard behaviour.
    I was thinking more along the 1960s/1990s fashion things, where the union jack becomes cool for non-fascists.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    My issue with Nandy is that she just doesn't come across particularly strongly, she's competent and knows her stuff but she'd be a non-entity as a leader. Ideas yes, leadership, no

    No vacancies for nonentity at leader.

    Labour already has one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    How many cases a day do we sequence - the omicron seems to be a lot of '2 more here, 6 more there' at the moment.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    For countries which do not have the same vaccination percentages that we do, what has been the limiting factors? Vaccine availability? Distribution? Take-up? Anti-vax stupidity?

    If we take South Africa as an example, then we see a country that has had a terrible time with AIDS, partially because of previous governments' evil denigration of the HIV/AIDS link and treatments, particularly under Mbeki. They behaved poorly over the AZ vaccine.

    Some of these countries are having a vaccine 'famine' not because of evil western countries, but because of the reluctance of the population to get vaccinated, and their poor (at best) leadership.

    You would have these countries not using vaccines they are given, whilst our people - where there is a demand - go unvaccinated. That's the quickest way for a government to be thrown out. Which is probably why you are advising it ...
    Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest. And it's not an 'evil west' observation I'm making. There are obviously domestic political imperatives in play and commercial ones too. But put it all together and you have an overall approach to a global pandemic that makes little sense for anybody apart from Pfizer & Co.
    "Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest."

    Can you provide some figures for that assertion, please?
    I know a lot of saffas. Lived there in fact. You’d be surprised how prevalent anti-vax mythology is even amongst the most highly educated and internationalised of them. That’s without taking into account the masses who can be quite distrustful of western medicine in general and lean towards muthi. Finally layer on top the logistical challenge of delivering mrna vaccines in townships. It’s ignorantly simplistic to blame low vaccine rates in South Africa on evil English Tories.
  • My issue with Nandy is that she just doesn't come across particularly strongly, she's competent and knows her stuff but she'd be a non-entity as a leader. Ideas yes, leadership, no

    No vacancies for nonentity at leader.

    Labour already has one.
    Another one where every post is "Starmer is crap"
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Pulpstar said:

    How many cases a day do we sequence - the omicron seems to be a lot of '2 more here, 6 more there' at the moment.

    Apparently around 1/3rd of our PCR tests include an element which makes them stick out like a sore thumb compared to delta
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    She's not a North London hand wringer. So that's a good start.
    Is there something in particular that you don't like about north Londoners, or is it just old-fashioned northern prejudice?
    I want Labour to be fronted by politicians who can connect with working people up and down the country. Attending dinner parties in Islington where you can demonstrate your wokeness is not the way to achieve this.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres says he is "deeply concerned" by travel restrictions being imposed on southern African countries to halt the spread of the Omicron variant.

    Guterres says he's worried about the "isolation" of southern African countries as a result of the restrictions. The UK, US and EU members are among countries that have imposed curbs on travel to the region.

    "The people of Africa cannot be blamed for the immorally low level of vaccinations available in Africa - and they should not be penalized for identifying and sharing crucial science and health information with the world," he says.

    South Africa's president says he is is "deeply disappointed" by the travel curbs, while Malawi's president has accused western countries of "Afrophobia".

    Whilst I support the steps our government has taken re Southern Africa I have some sympathy for this. We are not doing enough to vaccinate the third world. Just maybe, when we get the next variant of concern and the next from there we will realise this is not just a moral imperative but pure self interest.
  • Seems like if you grew up in a working class family in London you're not really working class and have no connection with people outside of London, who knew
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Seems a better gig for Nandy. Her northern credentials were wasted on Foreign Affairs.
    I cannot see what anyone finds impressive about her. Seems a complete lightweight to me.
    She's not a North London hand wringer. So that's a good start.
    Is there something in particular that you don't like about north Londoners, or is it just old-fashioned northern prejudice?
    I want Labour to be fronted by politicians who can connect with working people up and down the country. Attending dinner parties in Islington where you can demonstrate your wokeness is not the way to achieve this.
    Have you ever been to Islington?
  • Clapham and Brixton are a lot more yuppy and "woke" than Islington, stupid stereotype
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    DavidL said:

    The UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres says he is "deeply concerned" by travel restrictions being imposed on southern African countries to halt the spread of the Omicron variant.

    Guterres says he's worried about the "isolation" of southern African countries as a result of the restrictions. The UK, US and EU members are among countries that have imposed curbs on travel to the region.

    "The people of Africa cannot be blamed for the immorally low level of vaccinations available in Africa - and they should not be penalized for identifying and sharing crucial science and health information with the world," he says.

    South Africa's president says he is is "deeply disappointed" by the travel curbs, while Malawi's president has accused western countries of "Afrophobia".

    Whilst I support the steps our government has taken re Southern Africa I have some sympathy for this. We are not doing enough to vaccinate the third world. Just maybe, when we get the next variant of concern and the next from there we will realise this is not just a moral imperative but pure self interest.
    Why then did the president of South Africa say on tv last night that his country is under vaccinated because of demand rather than supply? What do you suggest we do? Pitch up with gunboats and threaten to shoot the place up if they won’t take jabs?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    I would support a Cameron Government over the current lot by a country mile

    Save for a bit less of Osborne's penny rich, pound poor scrimping/austerity the coalition was pretty much as good as it gets in terms of governance. I'd have Blair's first term near the top of the list too, with Clarke 93-97 as the chancellor.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    UK COVID Summary

    - Cases have stopped rising nationally - pretty much. The cases among the older part of the population is still falling.
    - Admissions are still falling. In the England data this is largely in the 64-85 group.
    - Deaths are still falling.

    Still riding the exit Delta wave quite nicely but will Omicron knock us off the board and force us to remount?
    Difficult to say just yet, we need to know whether Omicron can cause severe disease in vaccinated and recovered patients with high immunity to Delta. If it does then we're all pretty much fucked, if it doesn't then it's really no change.
    Yes, fingers crossed it's nearer to 'as we were' than 'oh no, Covid rides again'.

    I found this a striking sentence from the BBC write up of Omicron:

    "This level of mutation has most likely come from a single patient who was unable to beat the virus."
    Yes, it's the same as Alpha and Delta, an immunocompromised person who was kept on life support. The subject came up yesterday, the one doctor at lunch was very much unable to resolve the ethical quandary of turning off the life support machines for the greater good while the scientists and academics were all pretty clear that life support shouldn't be available to COVID patients unable to defeat the virus in one or two attempts as it allows for significant viral evolution and may set the whole world back and cause countless deaths. It is the reason doctors make for poor public health officials, they can't see beyond the single patient, as harsh as that sounds.
    That's quite a thought - a single dying person cooking up inside them a new malign variant. And, yes, an interesting ethical issue. There are quite a few of those thrown up by Covid.
    Indeed, and think about this - the person in whom Omicron originated may not have been eligible for a vaccine anyway, a lot of people who are severely immunocompromised aren't. So the whole narrative of this being caused by vaccine inequity may not even apply in this case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing our part to fix vaccine inequity, we should, but in the most serious mutation cases it's been the same class of patients making multiple attempts to defeat the virus which gives the virus a lot of opportunities to evolve and evade multiple standard natural immune responses.

    As you say, quite an interesting ethical issue.
    It really is. And it's one I wasn't aware of. Not a nice thought at all. Still, the other point, the global dimension to this remains very valid imo.

    There was a famous ad years ago ("for Mash get Smash") that featured very intellectually advanced aliens observing us earthlings and laughing fondly at our absurd behaviours.

    When considering the 'big picture' vaccination profile for this global pandemic, how in some places there's heated debate about which of the many available flavours is best for 3rd and 4th jabs, and how quickly they should happen, should children be given one, etc etc, when in other places they haven't been able to hardly get started on a 1st jab for the most vulnerable, I often think of that advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAbJjktk7E
    There's nothing absurd about it at all.

    Those countries that haven't done jabs for their vulnerable should have sorted themselves out to get jabs available.

    If they haven't because they can't sort themselves out and they need our generosity to get it sorted, then our generosity is dependent upon us running normally. So getting our own ones done first is still the right thing to do, in order to be able to better aid others.

    If we go back into lockdown and halt aid as a result, then who does that help?

    Its the same in an airplane - always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    Having vaccine feast in some places and famine in others - as opposed to distributing according to need - means the pandemic will last longer and kill more people than it otherwise would. Trite 'oxygen mask on first' analogies notwithstanding.
    For countries which do not have the same vaccination percentages that we do, what has been the limiting factors? Vaccine availability? Distribution? Take-up? Anti-vax stupidity?

    If we take South Africa as an example, then we see a country that has had a terrible time with AIDS, partially because of previous governments' evil denigration of the HIV/AIDS link and treatments, particularly under Mbeki. They behaved poorly over the AZ vaccine.

    Some of these countries are having a vaccine 'famine' not because of evil western countries, but because of the reluctance of the population to get vaccinated, and their poor (at best) leadership.

    You would have these countries not using vaccines they are given, whilst our people - where there is a demand - go unvaccinated. That's the quickest way for a government to be thrown out. Which is probably why you are advising it ...
    Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest. And it's not an 'evil west' observation I'm making. There are obviously domestic political imperatives in play and commercial ones too. But put it all together and you have an overall approach to a global pandemic that makes little sense for anybody apart from Pfizer & Co.
    "Other factors, yes, but availability is the biggest."

    Can you provide some figures for that assertion, please?
    I know a lot of saffas. Lived there in fact. You’d be surprised how prevalent anti-vax mythology is even amongst the most highly educated and internationalised of them. That’s without taking into account the masses who can be quite distrustful of western medicine in general and lean towards muthi. Finally layer on top the logistical challenge of delivering mrna vaccines in townships. It’s ignorantly simplistic to blame low vaccine rates in South Africa on evil English Tories.
    That's my impression as well. I mentioned Mbeki who, when he dies, should surely be going straight to hell over his behaviour wrt HIV/AIDS. Hundreds of thousands of deaths weight too lightly on his shoulders. Such 'leadership' can have long-lasting effects.
This discussion has been closed.