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Old Bexley & Sidcup: Another CON by-election flop? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Rayner vs Starmer briefing war in full flow now...

    Shadow Cabinet source: "This is all very curious. Angela has been telling us she would sort a reshuffle for months and that Keir couldn't do it without her. And now it happens she's saying she knew nothing about it."

    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1465302260855021568?s=20
  • Must be gutted for @bigjohnowls to see Labour having recovered from 26 points behind to be leading in the polls
  • 3.00pm Downing Street briefing
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited November 2021

    Oh goody, Rayner making a nuisance again and undermining the leader.

    Here's where I damn myself with the PB northern contigent for linguo-geographical inconsistencies...but if I were Angela Rayner I would be hoping very much that AJ Odudu wins Strictly. I am already mellowing to that otherwise quite harsh, dare I say unlovely accent. Coming from AJ however it is sweeter than the Fab Four's best.
  • TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Congratulations to Barbados who shrug the yoke of imperialism and become a republic from midnight tonight. Australia next, I reckon.

    It is also black majority while the majority of people who live in the remaining Commonwealth realms are of white British origin.

    So no, Australia is not likely next either.
    Er what?
    It's a good point. How far would Oliver Cromwell have got without an indigenous black majority?
    Black people aren't indigenous to Barbados either.
    IIRC there are some Barbadians with Carib in their ancestry. Went to a very interesting u3a talk on Barbados and it's people some years ago.
    Given by the Vicar of Canvey Island, who himself has very mixed ancestry.
    I'm not sure that's right. Barbados was unoccupied when the English showed up, probably owing to exposure to disease from previous European visitors. Indigenous populations have contributed to the gene pool in other parts of the Eastern Caribbean though.
    Most Barbadians have a mixture of African and European ancestry, the latter both as a result of plantation rape as well as intermarriage with the relatively large white population (mostly Irish and Scottish indentured workers). There's also a small number of wealthy white families who own much of the private sector economy. It's a pretty interesting country, quite messed up in some ways but a lot to like about it. It's probably my favourite place west of Ireland.
    Agree with your second paragraph, but wikipedia suggests some indigenes were brought in from other islands.
    That's interesting, I never heard that when I lived there. The Caribbean is a beautiful part of the world but their societies were forged in evil and that has cast a long shadow.
    I love Barbados. Probably more than nearly any other island around there. I always do a quick check for any potential danger (I use the word very broadly) by doing a per capital GDP check. The lower it is the greater the problem for tourists might be. Barbados I believe has a relatively high per capital GDP certainly vs many of the other caribbean islands.

    How long did you live there?
    Three years, in my early-mid 20s which is a pretty good age to enjoy it too. I absolutely love the place, had three of the best years of my life there.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Time to privatise and stop subsidising TFL then @HYUFD?

    To stop subsidising the large pay packets of striking tube drivers certainly as strikes will certainly not help it back into a healthy financial position post lockdown
    The ability to take collective action and to have collective bargaining has certainly helped to enhance the pay and conditions of the drivers.

    Unity is strength.
    They also got TfL to agree to not advertise driver jobs outside of TfL.

    This is the problem I have. Loads of money. But people like me can’t apply for the jobs.
    You can, you just need to start at a Station.

    Hey that's no different from the current career path for a policeman. You start as a Special or as a Community support officer.
    Wrong:

    https://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/disclosure-2019/august/direct-entry-detective/

    We do have an entry route called ‘Detective Career Pathway, where a candidate can apply as a direct entrant to become a Detective. This route provides individuals with the opportunity to come into the role directly as a trainee detective constable with no prior policing experience, and without having to join as a PC first.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    @NadineDorries

    I’ve just signed a groundbreaking international agreement with my Singaporean counterpart, Minister
    @mpjoteo
    .

    This is great news for our two countries. An agreement that will speed up trade, boost cyber security and reduce costs for businesses. Global Britain in action Flag of United KingdomFlag of Singapore
    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1465303634560925698?s=20
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Just wondering has anybody tried a sneaky booster jab bookage today i.e. have they done what they often do and update the backend before an announcement so that under 40s and 5 monthers can book?

    Am asking for a friend as I have already had my third and they are wondering if they could cancel their 6 month booster and rebook for 5.

    I tried on Friday. Saturday was available, then Dec 17th next. So not sure about availability.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,735
    Someone should explain this to the (checks notes) Brexit Minister...

    If Conservatives want to understand why tax as a %age of GDP is predicted to remain high, Brexit is a big factor - bigger, long-term, than COVID. The cake is smaller, so the state has to take a bigger share to maintain public services https://twitter.com/JohnSpringford/status/1465296399344586757
  • This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Naughty. Plus tiring. It will take six steps from there to get him to where you want him.

    So bravo also.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021
    glw said:

    Just wondering has anybody tried a sneaky booster jab bookage today i.e. have they done what they often do and update the backend before an announcement so that under 40s and 5 monthers can book?

    Am asking for a friend as I have already had my third and they are wondering if they could cancel their 6 month booster and rebook for 5.

    No. I just tried it and nothing has changed.
    Cheers. Will pass it on. I presume come the middle of the night tonight the site will be updated, on the presumption that the JCVI don't have a temper tantrum and come up with some ridiculous stupid fudge of you can be 5 months but only if you haven't already booked for a 6 month and there are people in your household over the age of 50, you have blue eyes and a cat named Fred.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Why does Mike keep spinning that Tice is ex-UKIP when he's ex-Brexit Party?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    No doubt now that it is wildly transmissible

    "Michael Mina
    @michaelmina_lab
    Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size

    In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta

    This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift"


    It is gonna race around the world, and everyone will encounter it, or catch it.

    There's no real indication that it will be very mild. This means a whole lot of dead and diseased people, just from the sheer number of infections


    https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1465126369608744968?s=20

    Yes but unless the vaccines prove completely ineffective in protecting against hospitalisation or death from it there is no need for more lockdowns even if more people catch it.

    Otherwise there will be riots if hasty lockdowns are imposed again
    I'd say the impact on us here in the UK depends on the extent to which Omicron evades the vaccines. This is the most important metric. If it's projected to cause a take-off in hospitalizations we'll be having to enact measures to mitigate this while we wait for evolved vaccines and antivirals. So not really a new pandemic, since we'd be in better shape than we were when this started, and also when Delta hit, but certainly a prolonging of the pandemic beyond next Feb which was when we were otherwise on track for it to be over.
  • Oh goody, Rayner making a nuisance again and undermining the leader.

    R4 WATO lead on Labour reshuffle is “Rayner out of loop”…..
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    I think it’s a shame that Barbados is now a republic.

    At its best, the monarchy can be a symbol of, and force for, multi-cultural kinship and constitutional sobriety.

    I tend to agree, though, that apres elle, le deluge.
  • MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    You can't fully automate the Tube without proper investment which now can't go ahead as the cuts mean TfL have been unable to finance it.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    I have always assumed that the government would forget the lessons of the pandemic, but I had also assumed that that would only happen once the pandemic was over, not whilst it was still raging.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Dura_Ace said:

    Congratulations to Barbados who shrug the yoke of imperialism and become a republic from midnight tonight. Australia next, I reckon.

    Given they've said they would do it for bloody years now I'd assume Jamaica, cant see what the hold up is when they appear to have consensus.
  • moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Beatles documentary is way too long.

    Fascinating, though, in its micro-details.

    They seem to subsist entirely on dry buttered toast and Riesling.

    5 minutes would be too long for me. In my very controversial humble opinion they were a good band, but the most overrated of all time.
    Sorry, you’re wrong about that.

    They remind me of Dylan, and indeed Shakespeare, in that the more you look into the work, the more there is to look at.

    One problem they have is their ridiculous ubiquity in the culture, rendering all their stuff like wallpaper.

    I have actually tried not to listen for them for the past 20 years, but rediscovered them during lockdown, thus resulting in sheer jubilation and excitement once more.

    It’s possible I will try to ignore them again for 20 years.
    They're brilliant. By definition overrated simply because you can't be rated that high without being overrated. But brilliant.
    Bizarre

    do you like the Grateful Dead? They are the closest stab I can have at a guess as to what the beatles would have been like if they'd been any good. Try the "Best Of" album.
    I do but I don't place that much above the Beatles last 4 or 5 years. Bob's my uber alles.
    You could retire to a desert island with a playlist of Dylan covers, and never get bored. the only Beatles cover I can think of is hendrix doing Sgt pepper on one occasion, and he covered Wild Thing, so not much of an accolade. let's ponder the reasons for the discrepancy.
    Probably because Dylan was a first rate songwriter but a second rate singer. Far easier to listen to a Dylan song and think "this is a great song but it would sound better sung in tune". When you listen to a Beatles song it's usually hard to think of how it could be improved. Many people have covered their songs, of course, notably Yesterday, but the originals are always the standards, with good reason.
    Always on the look out for a good Beatles cover to add to my playlist. Not saying they’re all better than the original. But a great way of hearing the songs semi fresh again.

    Al Green - I wanna hold your hand
    Joe Cocker - She came in through the bathroom window
    Joe Cocker - With a little help from my friends
    Paul Weller - Sexy Sadie
    Stevie Wonder - We can work it out
    Jonny Cash - In my life
    Prince et al - While my guitar gently weeps
    Fats Domino - Lady Madonna
    Elbow - Golden Slumbers
    Bristol Love - Strawberry Fields Forever
    Billy Preston - Eight Days a Week
    Scary Pockets - Rocky Racoon
    Wilson Picket - hey Jude
    Oasis - I am the walrus
    David Bowie - across the universe
    Hendrix - sgt pepper / day tripper
    John Farnham - Help!

    First concert I ever went to with friends instead of family, while I was living down under, and this was part of the setlist. It seems like he's always had it in his setlist, he did it really well, found this on YouTube (it isn't the concert I went to).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv54giOSRKs
  • Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    My only experience of Barbados is Mount Gay Rum.

    A memorable name.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    Ignore. It's not meant for you. It is elaborate bait for @HYUFD.

    It will go something along the lines of:

    KB: you changed your mind on Brexit
    HY: no I didn't
    KB: you mean you still believe it was wrong
    HY: I voted Remain but I respect the vote
    KB: So you support someone whose policy you disagree with
    HY: It is a democratic decision
    KB: So would Lab winning the next GE be but you wouldn't support them after, would you.

    And mate to KB.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,151
    HYUFD said:

    @NadineDorries

    I’ve just signed a groundbreaking international agreement with my Singaporean counterpart, Minister
    @mpjoteo
    .

    This is great news for our two countries. An agreement that will speed up trade, boost cyber security and reduce costs for businesses. Global Britain in action Flag of United KingdomFlag of Singapore
    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1465303634560925698?s=20

    I'm sure Singapore will happily offer Nadine lots of tips on how to maintain a healthy free and uncensored media landscape.
  • eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Congratulations to Barbados who shrug the yoke of imperialism and become a republic from midnight tonight. Australia next, I reckon.

    It is also black majority while the majority of people who live in the remaining Commonwealth realms are of white British origin.

    So no, Australia is not likely next either.
    Er what?
    It's a good point. How far would Oliver Cromwell have got without an indigenous black majority?
    Black people aren't indigenous to Barbados either.
    IIRC there are some Barbadians with Carib in their ancestry. Went to a very interesting u3a talk on Barbados and it's people some years ago.
    Given by the Vicar of Canvey Island, who himself has very mixed ancestry.
    I'm not sure that's right. Barbados was unoccupied when the English showed up, probably owing to exposure to disease from previous European visitors. Indigenous populations have contributed to the gene pool in other parts of the Eastern Caribbean though.
    Most Barbadians have a mixture of African and European ancestry, the latter both as a result of plantation rape as well as intermarriage with the relatively large white population (mostly Irish and Scottish indentured workers). There's also a small number of wealthy white families who own much of the private sector economy. It's a pretty interesting country, quite messed up in some ways but a lot to like about it. It's probably my favourite place west of Ireland.
    Agree with your second paragraph, but wikipedia suggests some indigenes were brought in from other islands.
    That's interesting, I never heard that when I lived there. The Caribbean is a beautiful part of the world but their societies were forged in evil and that has cast a long shadow.
    I love Barbados. Probably more than nearly any other island around there. I always do a quick check for any potential danger (I use the word very broadly) by doing a per capital GDP check. The lower it is the greater the problem for tourists might be. Barbados I believe has a relatively high per capital GDP certainly vs many of the other caribbean islands.

    How long did you live there?
    Three years, in my early-mid 20s which is a pretty good age to enjoy it too. I absolutely love the place, had three of the best years of my life there.
    I bet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021
    glw said:

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    I have always assumed that the government would forget the lessons of the pandemic, but I had also assumed that that would only happen once the pandemic was over, not whilst it was still raging.
    It also doesn't really fit with the whole "levelling up more state involvement" agenda. Also if I remember correctly this centre had been planned well before COVID, precisely for the UK to regain a foothold in vaccine production shielded a bit from ultimate globalisation pressures that result in basically India and China ruling the world when it comes to these things, and capable of doing world leading research.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    I read all his posts for my sins. And what I see there is someone who voted Remain but now thinks Brexit is the bees knees.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Politics is about hope, which springs eternal I'm told.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Day 3 without power or water for many in sub zero temperatures.
    Doesn't seem to be an important issue for any bugger else though.

    I was very surprised when I heard there were still lots of people unconnected after 24 hours.

    I wonder whether it's the combination of the high winds with the cold weather that is causing difficulties. Such a strong storm from the north is unusual. Polar lows are normally weaker, and our strong storms are normally south-westers.

    Or it could be that the county's infrastructure is creaking and more vulnerable.
    Sheer scale of damage according to this

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/29/storm-arwen-homes-in-north-of-england-without-power-for-third-night

    No phone lines either in an area with little to no mobile coverage.
    Still. I suppose it will be said it's their own fault for living there. Most people who want to mitigate a storm will own a JCB.

    Really was the worst storm I remember in this country. Far worse than the London one in the 80's. And we only caught the edge.
    There were a large number of trees down around Windermere, completely uprooted (though that’s as much because this soil over bedrock makes for very shallow roots), and very little mobile phone signal in the area.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080

    Labour source confirms shadow cabinet reshuffle underway.

    But sounds like Angela Rayner may have been left out of loop (because that worked so well last time).

    Deputy leader: "I don't know the details of any reshuffle, I've been concentrating on the job I have been doing."


    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1465285029865607170?s=20

    Angela Rayner being interviewed live on Sky as she makes her speech and has no idea of a reshuffle

    Adam Boulton 'looks like Starmer has overshadowed his deputy ' !!!!!!!!!
    How does Ang do an interview whilst making a speech?

    Isn't that extreme multitasking even for a lady?
  • This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
  • JVCI up at 3pm....
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw

    That doesn't even begin to top - William Shatner's version of Common People.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
  • My only experience of Barbados is Mount Gay Rum.

    A memorable name.

    Sounds like a good night out at a drag queen contest.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Leon said:

    No doubt now that it is wildly transmissible

    "Michael Mina
    @michaelmina_lab
    Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size

    In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta

    This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift"


    It is gonna race around the world, and everyone will encounter it, or catch it.

    There's no real indication that it will be very mild. This means a whole lot of dead and diseased people, just from the sheer number of infections


    https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1465126369608744968?s=20

    Great news - where are the bodies? Genuinely if there is that much of it around, without the huge increase in hospitals and deaths, then its good news,
  • eek said:

    Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw

    That doesn't even begin to top - William Shatner's version of Common People.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
    It is, but Common People should only be sung by Sheffield lads.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    Even without test and trace wastage, £215 million isn't a very large sum of money for having a world class vaccine research and production facility.

    My understanding was the whole reason for building it in the first place was the worry that the UK was far too reliant on foreign manufacture and meaning advanced research could be supported.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    I think the question is what are we going to do with it and how/who on earth would run it.

    And that last question may make selling it off to someone a better than doing it ourselves?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569

    Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw

    Fair to say he Shat on those.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    glw said:

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    I have always assumed that the government would forget the lessons of the pandemic, but I had also assumed that that would only happen once the pandemic was over, not whilst it was still raging.
    If we really don't need the output ourselves why are we not pumping out vaccines for the rest of the world on the aid budget? Southern Africa looks a really excellent place to start right now.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080

    JVCI up at 3pm....

    Everyone has to get out of bed sometime :smile:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    dixiedean said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Beatles documentary is way too long.

    Fascinating, though, in its micro-details.

    They seem to subsist entirely on dry buttered toast and Riesling.

    5 minutes would be too long for me. In my very controversial humble opinion they were a good band, but the most overrated of all time.
    Sorry, you’re wrong about that.

    They remind me of Dylan, and indeed Shakespeare, in that the more you look into the work, the more there is to look at.

    One problem they have is their ridiculous ubiquity in the culture, rendering all their stuff like wallpaper.

    I have actually tried not to listen for them for the past 20 years, but rediscovered them during lockdown, thus resulting in sheer jubilation and excitement once more.

    It’s possible I will try to ignore them again for 20 years.
    They're brilliant. By definition overrated simply because you can't be rated that high without being overrated. But brilliant.
    Bizarre

    do you like the Grateful Dead? They are the closest stab I can have at a guess as to what the beatles would have been like if they'd been any good. Try the "Best Of" album.
    I do but I don't place that much above the Beatles last 4 or 5 years. Bob's my uber alles.
    You could retire to a desert island with a playlist of Dylan covers, and never get bored. the only Beatles cover I can think of is hendrix doing Sgt pepper on one occasion, and he covered Wild Thing, so not much of an accolade. let's ponder the reasons for the discrepancy.
    Probably because Dylan was a first rate songwriter but a second rate singer. Far easier to listen to a Dylan song and think "this is a great song but it would sound better sung in tune". When you listen to a Beatles song it's usually hard to think of how it could be improved. Many people have covered their songs, of course, notably Yesterday, but the originals are always the standards, with good reason.
    Disagree. I prefer the dylan versions of Mr Tambourine Man, Mighty Quinn, bitw, you ain't going nowhere. Ambivalent about aatwt.
    I still think the Dylan version of All Along the Watchtower is superior to that of Hendrix. There is a depth in the former that sounds like it comes from some ancient time, whereas the latter seems superficial.
    Me too. Although it is such a great cover it is almost pointless comparing with the original. Best to treat as a completely different song
    Yes, different songs really. Which is what the best covers manage to do and especially the best Dylan covers.
  • I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Angela Rayner wants the expected outcome of the reshuffle (ie more competence on the front bench), but refuses to be associated with the some of the dirty work involved (ie, sacking people).

    I like her a lot, but she hasn’t really understood that the number one requirement for deputy is loyalty. Her public antics risk a progressive majority at the next election.

    (I write this as someone who think Keir should be rolled at the next election).
  • This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    Even without test and trace wastage, £215 million isn't a very large sum of money for having a world class vaccine research and production facility.

    My understanding was the whole reason for building it in the first place was the worry that the UK was far too reliant on foreign manufacture.
    Yup, we're going to sell it to the Chinese or an EU country and when the next pandemic event happens it will look even worse.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Ella Fitzgerald does a very groovy “Savoy Truffle”.

    The best Beatles covers are to be found in the jazz/soul/reggae world.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021
    MattW said:

    JVCI up at 3pm....

    Everyone has to get out of bed sometime :smile:
    Well they spent the whole of the summer asleep like a teenager.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Plonker. You should stick to weekend trips to Blackpool!
  • TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    I have always assumed that the government would forget the lessons of the pandemic, but I had also assumed that that would only happen once the pandemic was over, not whilst it was still raging.
    If we really don't need the output ourselves why are we not pumping out vaccines for the rest of the world on the aid budget? Southern Africa looks a really excellent place to start right now.
    It was pointed out to me (on here) that that is not the issue with SA's vax status.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    .
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    I read all his posts for my sins. And what I see there is someone who voted Remain but now thinks Brexit is the bees knees.
    ...until "rejoin" becomes official Conservative Party policy.
  • TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was, Harrods was like the first twenty five minutes of Saving Private Ryan.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    Even without test and trace wastage, £215 million isn't a very large sum of money for having a world class vaccine research and production facility.

    My understanding was the whole reason for building it in the first place was the worry that the UK was far too reliant on foreign manufacture and meaning advanced research could be done.
    Maybe, but if they sell it to, say, Pfizer who turn it into a new research and manufacturing hub of vaccines in the UK the ROI would be potentially huge. Selling it isn't a bad idea, it just depends on who buys it, if it's a PE or VC fund then yes, it will be a waste of everyone's time. If it's a medium sized or larger pharmaceutical company it could provide the small push needed to get a big private investment in manufacturing and development of vaccines in the UK.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,702

    Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw

    Love The Shat, his Columbo Episode is just magnificent. Fade into Murder. Genius. He played the killer who was an actor in a tv detective show and he ends up getting so into character he helps Columbo solve the case.

    His Rocket man Is also terrific. Parodied quite well by family guy. He did an album with Leonard Nimoy whose voice isn’t great but better than Shatners.

    https://youtu.be/Awn_qRWFFsI
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
    We call them Sadiq Cycles now
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    I read all his posts for my sins. And what I see there is someone who voted Remain but now thinks Brexit is the bees knees.
    ...until "rejoin" becomes official Conservative Party policy.
    Which it (or at least EEA membership) will eventually, given the no-longer-possible-to-ignore dent to the economy and in turn public finances.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2021

    I think it’s a shame that Barbados is now a republic.

    At its best, the monarchy can be a symbol of, and force for, multi-cultural kinship and constitutional sobriety.

    I tend to agree, though, that apres elle, le deluge.

    38 out of 54 Commonwealth nations became republics or (or in the case of Tonga have their own monarch) in the reign of the Queen or her father George VIth. Barbados becoming a republic this month makes that 39 out of 54.

    So the deluge already happened and it happened mainly in the reign of the current Queen with India and Ireland for example going in the reign of her father.

    The only Commonwealth realms left when the Queen dies of any significance will be nations with primarily populations of mainly white British Isles heritage eg Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    So it may have been correct to say when King George Vth died in 1936, apres il le deluge, it would not be true on the death of the current Queen
  • Discuss: Covid-19 is the only thing keeping the United Kingdom together.

    Timing of Nicola Sturgeon's conference speech today isn't ideal for the SNP.

    At 10.30am, she warned Scots over a new covid variant.

    At 12.45pm, she pledged to party members the campaign for independence will resume next year - "covid permitting".


    https://twitter.com/Dennynews/status/1465301165265072130
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Leon said:

    No doubt now that it is wildly transmissible

    "Michael Mina
    @michaelmina_lab
    Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size

    In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta

    This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift"


    It is gonna race around the world, and everyone will encounter it, or catch it.

    There's no real indication that it will be very mild. This means a whole lot of dead and diseased people, just from the sheer number of infections


    https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1465126369608744968?s=20

    Great news - where are the bodies? Genuinely if there is that much of it around, without the huge increase in hospitals and deaths, then its good news,
    Covid seems to hospitalise people after 7 to 10 days and kills them 7 days after that.

    We haven't got to those time frames yet with Omicron
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254

    Discuss: Covid-19 is the only thing keeping the United Kingdom together.

    Timing of Nicola Sturgeon's conference speech today isn't ideal for the SNP.

    At 10.30am, she warned Scots over a new covid variant.

    At 12.45pm, she pledged to party members the campaign for independence will resume next year - "covid permitting".


    https://twitter.com/Dennynews/status/1465301165265072130

    There is nothing so Nailed On in politics as that letter coming from Nippy to BJ.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,702
    Starmer is the leader, he needs to assert himself. She’s his deputy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
    We call them Sadiq Cycles now
    Not the worst. I save one syllable, though.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    Andrew Bridgen on WATO. Oh joy!
  • I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Plonker. You should stick to weekend trips to Blackpool!
    Already booked my 2022 trip to Blackpool.

    This time four days and three nights.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
    We call them Sadiq Cycles now
    Not the worst. I save one syllable, though.
    ‘Diq Cycles is a cryptic crossword clue for Boris Bikes.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    It's not about the money, it's about ensuring that vaccines continue to get investment in the UK. The state isn't going to keep putting taxpayer money in and then watch as AZ and Pfizer make billions of dollars in revenue.

    The knee jerk reaction is to say it's a poor decision, yet I'm not sure it is, the manufacturing capacity now exists where it didn't previously and we have a strategic manufacturing reserve for many types of vaccine in the UK including viral vector, mRNA and viral protein, having a state owned company involved may not make sense any more and getting private investment in from Pfizer, AZ, GSK or even a mid-sized biotech makes a lot of sense. Think of this as the government overcoming the inertia stage of the investment decision and then recouping all of the cost of that.

    Personally, I think with the right buyer it could be a really good move, if we got GSK or Pfizer to buy it with a guarantee of further investment in production capacity it's exactly the outcome we would want from this sort of project.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
    We call them Sadiq Cycles now
    Not the worst. I save one syllable, though.
    Technically, as an idea of Ken's, we should call them Livingstone's something?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    Ella Fitzgerald does a very groovy “Savoy Truffle”.

    The best Beatles covers are to be found in the jazz/soul/reggae world.

    For me one of the very best Dylan covers comes from there too. Richie Havens and Just Like a Woman.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2021
    MaxPB said:

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    Even without test and trace wastage, £215 million isn't a very large sum of money for having a world class vaccine research and production facility.

    My understanding was the whole reason for building it in the first place was the worry that the UK was far too reliant on foreign manufacture and meaning advanced research could be done.
    Maybe, but if they sell it to, say, Pfizer who turn it into a new research and manufacturing hub of vaccines in the UK the ROI would be potentially huge. Selling it isn't a bad idea, it just depends on who buys it, if it's a PE or VC fund then yes, it will be a waste of everyone's time. If it's a medium sized or larger pharmaceutical company it could provide the small push needed to get a big private investment in manufacturing and development of vaccines in the UK.
    My understanding from the very beginning (pre COVID) was that it was supposed to be a not for profit, essentially an academic venture, to enable R&D in conjunction with a number of leading universities, so basically enabling them to do world leading stuff shielded from immediate commercial pressures.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,133
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Congratulations to Barbados who shrug the yoke of imperialism and become a republic from midnight tonight. Australia next, I reckon.

    Given they've said they would do it for bloody years now I'd assume Jamaica, cant see what the hold up is when they appear to have consensus.
    Waiting for the change of monarchs, I expect. Tactful.
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 234

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    Clear the dead wood Starmer, good job.

    He's reshuffled himself? Novel. :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Beatles documentary is way too long.

    Fascinating, though, in its micro-details.

    They seem to subsist entirely on dry buttered toast and Riesling.

    5 minutes would be too long for me. In my very controversial humble opinion they were a good band, but the most overrated of all time.
    Sorry, you’re wrong about that.

    They remind me of Dylan, and indeed Shakespeare, in that the more you look into the work, the more there is to look at.

    One problem they have is their ridiculous ubiquity in the culture, rendering all their stuff like wallpaper.

    I have actually tried not to listen for them for the past 20 years, but rediscovered them during lockdown, thus resulting in sheer jubilation and excitement once more.

    It’s possible I will try to ignore them again for 20 years.
    They're brilliant. By definition overrated simply because you can't be rated that high without being overrated. But brilliant.
    Bizarre

    do you like the Grateful Dead? They are the closest stab I can have at a guess as to what the beatles would have been like if they'd been any good. Try the "Best Of" album.
    I do but I don't place that much above the Beatles last 4 or 5 years. Bob's my uber alles.
    You could retire to a desert island with a playlist of Dylan covers, and never get bored. the only Beatles cover I can think of is hendrix doing Sgt pepper on one occasion, and he covered Wild Thing, so not much of an accolade. let's ponder the reasons for the discrepancy.
    Probably because Dylan was a first rate songwriter but a second rate singer. Far easier to listen to a Dylan song and think "this is a great song but it would sound better sung in tune". When you listen to a Beatles song it's usually hard to think of how it could be improved. Many people have covered their songs, of course, notably Yesterday, but the originals are always the standards, with good reason.
    Disagree. I prefer the dylan versions of Mr Tambourine Man, Mighty Quinn, bitw, you ain't going nowhere. Ambivalent about aatwt.
    I still think the Dylan version of All Along the Watchtower is superior to that of Hendrix. There is a depth in the former that sounds like it comes from some ancient time, whereas the latter seems superficial.
    Me too. Although it is such a great cover it is almost pointless comparing with the original. Best to treat as a completely different song
    Yes, different songs really. Which is what the best covers manage to do and especially the best Dylan covers.
    Certainly true of any Shatner effort ….
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    I read all his posts for my sins. And what I see there is someone who voted Remain but now thinks Brexit is the bees knees.
    ...until "rejoin" becomes official Conservative Party policy.
    Well, yes, obvs. But that's a cold day in hell, I think.
  • Clear the dead wood Starmer, good job.

    He's reshuffled himself? Novel. :D
    Keir Starmer has taken Labour from 26 points behind to being ahead, why is he so bad?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    This looks a very stupid decision.

    No10 spox: "We have been successful in securing a diverse supply and stock of vaccines throughout this process and our expectation is that we don't require that centre producing, sort of, 'state vaccinations'...

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1465304392589099013?s=20

    The thing that really pisses me off about that is “Things are tight and so they’re looking for a way to recoup some of the [£215m] cost.”

    Given how much we spaffed up the wall on Test, Trace, and Isolate or to Tory donors are we really quibbling about £215 million?
    Even without test and trace wastage, £215 million isn't a very large sum of money for having a world class vaccine research and production facility.

    My understanding was the whole reason for building it in the first place was the worry that the UK was far too reliant on foreign manufacture and meaning advanced research could be done.
    Maybe, but if they sell it to, say, Pfizer who turn it into a new research and manufacturing hub of vaccines in the UK the ROI would be potentially huge. Selling it isn't a bad idea, it just depends on who buys it, if it's a PE or VC fund then yes, it will be a waste of everyone's time. If it's a medium sized or larger pharmaceutical company it could provide the small push needed to get a big private investment in manufacturing and development of vaccines in the UK.
    My understanding was that it was supposed to be a not for profit, essentially an academic venture, to enable R&D in conjunction with a number of leading universities, so basically enabling them to do world leading stuff shielded from immediate commercial pressures.
    That potentially makes more sense in a UK where no real vaccine manufacturing capacity exists and there is little expertise. That's no longer the case and if anything this move will bring more investment in capacity and expertise. As I said, with the right buyer it could be a really great move, all of the pieces of the puzzle already exist now for a private company to come and turn that into a world leading fully integrated vaccine research and manufacturing site. I think that's what the government will be looking for, it's not the £215m so much as it is the £500-800m in further investment that will come over time to upgrade the facility and in recruitment of vaccine manufacturing expertise into the UK, an area we struggle with.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,722
    Source?

    Starmer has a proven track record of lying so lets see what the truth turns out to be.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    guybrush said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
    It is a massive civil engineering task, and also massively disruptive. The savings are not that much - at least for 'driverless' as opposed to 'staffless' trains.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,133
    guybrush said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
    Abolish the passengers? That would certainly resolve the issue.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    No doubt now that it is wildly transmissible

    "Michael Mina
    @michaelmina_lab
    Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size

    In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta

    This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift"


    It is gonna race around the world, and everyone will encounter it, or catch it.

    There's no real indication that it will be very mild. This means a whole lot of dead and diseased people, just from the sheer number of infections


    https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1465126369608744968?s=20

    Great news - where are the bodies? Genuinely if there is that much of it around, without the huge increase in hospitals and deaths, then its good news,
    Covid seems to hospitalise people after 7 to 10 days and kills them 7 days after that.

    We haven't got to those time frames yet with Omicron
    Um I'd argue that's not true for SA.
  • guybrush said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
    And replace it with what? And who would drive the trains?

    Once again, the Tories want TfL to spend less money, so how on Earth do they do what you propose?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited November 2021
    guybrush said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
    I think you seriously underestimate the cost of those two major issues..

    You should note that all places that currently have driverless trains also have platforms that are vastly bigger than older platforms. As an example within London take the Jubilee line from Green Park to Westminster / London Bridge and witness the scale of the difference (Green Park built almost manually, Westminster built post using modern methods).
  • eek said:

    guybrush said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TfL is the perfect example of strong unions representing their workers.

    And the result is a strong career path with good pay, running the finest public network in the UK. People that actually use the Underground think it's good on the whole, just needs some work - but the Tories aren't going to help with that

    Not necessarily, the drivers have made themselves prime automation targets because paying them is now a huge expense so the potential saving is now high enough to warrant a big investment in self driving trains.
    Again let me refer you to https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    It's a classic example of if you want to do that - you don't want to start from here...

    The underground will be one of the last networks in the world to be automated for there are an awful, awful lot of dragons in the bits that aren't already automated.
    The conclusion is that the Tube will never be automated, not least the District line which is still in part managed by Network Rail. Perhaps the Tories would like to fund it and not cut it.
    It's really not as difficult as the LR article makes out, just requires a bucketload of cash and some political will. So not happening anytime soon, admittedly.

    The two major issues would be the need to fit platform edge doors and create level access. This is a civil engineering issue, and can be solved but will require significant disruption.

    The other challenge is the psychological issue around having up to 1000 people deep underground on an unattended train, with (unlike other systems) no emergency escape route. Not a dealbreaker but would require significant political commitment at all levels.

    The unions have done a great job for their members interests at the expense of the capital as a whole, and TfL that devotes significant time and resources to dealing with the whole pseudo-1970s obstructive bureaucracy around it. It's great for CorrectBattery and others to hold this up as socialism in action, but at the end of the day its the passengers who are paying for it. If it were up to me I'd abolish them tomorrow
    I think you seriously underestimate the cost of those two major issues..

    You should note that all places that currently have driverless trains also have platforms that are vastly bigger than older platforms. As an example within London take the Jubilee line from Green Park to Westminster / London Bridge and witness the scale of the difference (Green Park built almost manually, Westminster built post using modern methods).
    There's phone signal at Westminster, it's brilliant!
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    eek said:

    Since you've all been talking about The Beatles and covers, why has no one mentioned the greatest cover of all time, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by William Shatner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH06aNXWb8U

    Mind you The Shat is awesome at covers, I'm still awestruck by this cover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J648lr8cjuw

    That doesn't even begin to top - William Shatner's version of Common People.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
    This has absolutely and completely made my day. How was I not aware of this?!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    kinabalu said:

    .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I find it curiously entertaining how much time PBers waste arguing with HYUFD.

    He won't change his mind, however wrong he is shown to be.

    Changed his mind on Brexit. That's massive.
    Have you not read any of his posts?

    He accepted the result of the referendum.
    I read all his posts for my sins. And what I see there is someone who voted Remain but now thinks Brexit is the bees knees.
    ...until "rejoin" becomes official Conservative Party policy.
    Well, yes, obvs. But that's a cold day in hell, I think.
    Hmmm... it won't be called "rejoin" but "a trading realignment with our partners".
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,255
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Congratulations to Barbados who shrug the yoke of imperialism and become a republic from midnight tonight. Australia next, I reckon.

    Given they've said they would do it for bloody years now I'd assume Jamaica, cant see what the hold up is when they appear to have consensus.
    Waiting for the change of monarchs, I expect. Tactful.
    What's the protocol wrt countries that have the Queen as Head of State? Is it that they have her specifically as HoS or the UK HoS as HoS? I mean, when Charles is King, would they have to take an active decision to remove him as their HoS or could they just passively never make Charles HoS? The latter is obviously a great deal easier and the obvious outcome of apathy.

    I suspect it may be a mix? For some, specifically QE2 as HoS, for others the UK HoS? For the Commonwealth, wasn't it specifically Elizabeth, but Charles was confirmed as successor a couple of years back?
  • I think it’s a shame that Barbados is now a republic.

    At its best, the monarchy can be a symbol of, and force for, multi-cultural kinship and constitutional sobriety.

    I tend to agree, though, that apres elle, le deluge.

    I agree with you in principle but in practice, while I think HMQ herself has good instincts in this area, the performance of the Royal family as an institution and the broader British establishment makes it hard to sustain that kind of narrative. Things like the Windrush scandal and Meghan Markle's experience will I think have made a big impression in Barbados.
    I remember talking to people when I lived there, many of them had experience living or studying in the UK and while they were mostly pretty Anglophile (eg loving English football and pubs) most would have some story of a slight or mis-treatment they had experienced here, which was generally perceived as being racist in origin. And the older people had memories of being treated as second class citizens even in their own country, pre-independence. I think it's sadly not surprising they want shot of the British monarchy.
  • TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was, Harrods was like the first twenty five minutes of Saving Private Ryan.
    So the best bit?
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Taz said:

    Starmer is the leader, he needs to assert himself. She’s his deputy.
    He can't sack her though as she was elected. Makes no sense why you would have a separately elected deputy leader in a political party which must be why Labour do it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I spent a long weekend in London.

    Someone please shoot me the next time I think about going to London during the Black Friday weekend.

    Even though I don't use the tube, it messed up Uber and general taxis as well.

    Wasn't it a tube strike on the Friday leading into Sat.

    That will be the cause of much of your woe.
    It was indeed. The buses were useful and got me around just fine, great public transport network in London
    B*r*s bikes for me!
    We call them Sadiq Cycles now
    Not the worst. I save one syllable, though.
    I guess how the name changes is going to be cyclical
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,394
    kinabalu said:

    Ella Fitzgerald does a very groovy “Savoy Truffle”.

    The best Beatles covers are to be found in the jazz/soul/reggae world.

    For me one of the very best Dylan covers comes from there too. Richie Havens and Just Like a Woman.
    Not sure that I prefer it, but Bryan Ferry's version of "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall" is quite an upbeat take on what was originally a pretty downbeat and brooding delivery by Bob.
This discussion has been closed.