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Let’s not forget how appalling Corbyn’s GE2019 ratings were – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 23 in General
imageLet’s not forget how appalling Corbyn’s GE2019 ratings were – politicalbetting.com

In the previous post I argued that much of BJ’s electoral success has been based on the weakness of his LAB opponents at the time – Ken Livingstone for the London Mayoralty and Corbyn at the last general election.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    First
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358
    eek said:

    First

    What? 🤷‍♀️
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
    Got to be careful here but Nope, the dataset is based on the 1990 survey alongside improvements since then.

    Why do you think I like the idea of doing it on sale prices (via a "wealth" tax)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    Corbyn's poor ratings led many 2017 Labour voters to go LD in 2019 (in fact more than went Tory).

    They have mainly returned to Labour now Starmer has replaced Corbyn.

    However Labour regaining voters who went Tory or Brexit Party in 2019 to get Brexit done is proving a harder challenge for Starmer
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358
    eek said:

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
    Got to be careful here but Nope, the dataset is based on the 1990 survey alongside improvements since then.

    Why do you think I like the idea of doing it on sale prices (via a "wealth" tax)
    Yes that sounds more up to date and fair.

    Would the experts say it’s too complicated?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,870
    edited November 23

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
    'Fair council tax' :lol:

    (Council tax valuations were when? Dinosaurs still roamed, I believe). I also understand - I may be wrong - that our planned house extension will not automatically change our council tax band, even though the equivalent house would surely have been valued at least a band up (based on looking at alternatives to buy another house instead). - Edit, I am wrong according to Eek's post? When does this happen then? Linked to building inspection sign off or similar? Wondering what triggers someone to do the assessment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn's poor ratings led many 2017 Labour voters to go LD in 2019 (in fact more than went Tory).

    They have mainly returned to Labour now Starmer has replaced Corbyn.

    However Labour regaining voters who went Tory or Brexit Party in 2019 to get Brexit done is proving a harder challenge for Starmer

    I don't think that latter group want to hear anything about Brexit. Even Make Brexit Work reminds them of something that is, to them, ancient history.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    Selebian said:

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
    'Fair council tax' :lol:

    (Council tax valuations were when? Dinosaurs still roamed, I believe). I also understand - I may be wrong - that our planned house extension will not automatically change our council tax band, even though the equivalent house would surely have been valued at least a band up (based on looking at alternatives to buy another house instead). - Edit, I am wrong according to Eek's post? When does this happen then? Linked to building inspection sign off or similar? Wondering what triggers someone to do the assessment.
    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/council-tax-bands-change/

    1991. Obvs new houses were valued de novo. Or you can appeal to be revalued. But, as a Which article I once read pointed out, be very careful about that. It might be that your house gets revalued upwards - and so, too, the neighbours' houses. Not popular.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,081
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    edited November 23
    [duplicate]
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    Selebian said:

    Johnson tells Cabinet that some people will have to sell home to pay for care - Guardian blog

    Johnson caught telling the truth.

    How novel.
    It’s The flat cap those up north may not actually like.

    But to be really fair to Boris and the Conservatives though, unless I misunderstand it’s not their idea how to solve it?

    There is something I don’t understand about the social care cap please. Why is it an unprogressive flat amount regardless of your wealth and not a percentage amount? This isn’t a dig at current government, because dilnott report seems against percentage and insist on May and Boris capping way of doing it, Kings Fund is against using percentage, and the argument used against using the progressive percentage measure is that it’s far too complicated. But really?

    Edit: the making the promise they couldn’t keep was their own idea though?
    By percentage I mean everyone has same percentage of house wealth. Doesn’t council tax data base hold all that data in order to do fair council tax?
    'Fair council tax' :lol:

    (Council tax valuations were when? Dinosaurs still roamed, I believe). I also understand - I may be wrong - that our planned house extension will not automatically change our council tax band, even though the equivalent house would surely have been valued at least a band up (based on looking at alternatives to buy another house instead). - Edit, I am wrong according to Eek's post? When does this happen then? Linked to building inspection sign off or similar? Wondering what triggers someone to do the assessment.
    When improvements are done the improvements are flagged on the system.

    It's only when the house is sold that the change occurs which (I suspect) is then based on relative to other local house prices. It's one of those questions where I can guess the answer but you don't want to ask as the NDA stops you answering.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,081
    edited November 23
    Not sure about watching the Saudi GP.
    Toto Wolff is threatening to get his "spicy equipment out"....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,868
    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,001
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn's poor ratings led many 2017 Labour voters to go LD in 2019 (in fact more than went Tory).

    They have mainly returned to Labour now Starmer has replaced Corbyn.

    However Labour regaining voters who went Tory or Brexit Party in 2019 to get Brexit done is proving a harder challenge for Starmer

    I don't think that latter group want to hear anything about Brexit. Even Make Brexit Work reminds them of something that is, to them, ancient history.
    Which is why Starmer and the rest of his team avoid using the word 'Brexit' except when absolutely necessary. They've been pretty successful thus far. 'Make Brexit Work' as a slogan is there for when the B word is unavoidable.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,868
    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    I had one from BA extolling the virtues of winter in Vienna a couple of weeks ago!
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    edited November 23
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    I had one from BA extolling the virtues of winter in Vienna a couple of weeks ago!
    (Usually) better to go this time of year than going in mid Summer. I was working there in July a few years back and stayed over the weekend. Twas 32 degrees and I went outside without a hat and within 5 minutes was hunting in the market for a drink, headache tablets and a baseball cap.

    It was lovely but boy was it hot and hard work.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    I had one from BA extolling the virtues of winter in Vienna a couple of weeks ago!
    LOL! I hope it was for the Imperium Residence a room in which you would be staying for the two weeks of your holiday.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    Download and complete your declaration of honour before you go. Pre-book your return PCR or LFT test before you set off back home, complete the online PLF, and complete the pre-booked test within two days of returning to the Uk. Sorted.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    Download and complete your declaration of honour before you go. Pre-book your return PCR or LFT test before you set off back home, complete the online PLF, and complete the pre-booked test within two days of returning to the Uk. Sorted.
    Is it either or for the PCR/LFT? And does the LFT have to be private?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,320
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.

    He presents as someone drunk trying to pretend to be sober.
    He really, really doesn't

    God knows I drink enough, and am drunk enough, and have pretended to be sober enough. I doubt you've been really drunk a dozen times in your life? You know nothing of this

    If Boris was just a desperate secret boozer, like Charles Kennedy, it would be bloody obvious. He isn't. His problems actually go deeper than that, and they are more interesting. He has some deep neediness, related to his mum and dad, allied with a schoolboy shtick of "I'm just a bumbling amateur, hahaha" which got him into Eton, Oxford and the Buller, but this has now fossilised into a persona, all of which is sunk in a genuinely gifted and powerful intelligence, which means he lives at total cross purposes
    I’m intrigued by the concept that Boris Johnson is “gifted” and has a “powerful intelligence”.

    “Gifted” is normally a quality attributed to a child or young adult. There is something tragic about saying it of a man close to 60.

    The only evidence I’ve ever seen for him having a “powerful intelligence” is him narrowly losing the Greeks vs Romans debate to Professor Mary Beard. It was a surprisingly close call and not the Prof walkover you’d expect. (A truly intelligent debater would have whopped Beard, as it is blatantly obvious that the Greeks were more impressive.)

    Pericles and his ilk succumbed to the Plague of Athens. Johnson and his despicable ilk will be remembered as the Plague of England.
    FWIW as someone who's had a bit of contact with him, I think he's genuinely bright, but doesn't usually bother to apply it, since he's found that winging it is enough to win in every walk of life, so long as you're also affable and amusing. That has yet to be disproved, but I agree he's testing it to destruction. I do wonder if he's altogether well at the moment - he's arguably going beyond winging it to something more extreme.
    Looks like Long Covid to me. He’s not quite right.

    But could also be stress, sleep problems, depression, alcohol or some other explanation.
    Boris likes the idea of “getting things done”.
    But he’s not managed to deliver anything in the manifesto, and levelling up has been butchered by Treasury.

    It’s possible he’s just really fucking bored of the actual job.
    How long will Sunak survive if Johnson turns vindictive? He doesn’t strike me as the kind of personality that will tolerate his programme being butchered by the Treasury.
    It's too late - Boris has already had a reshuffle and can't now sanely do one until early 2023 - by which point he will have gone.
    He could insanely do one.

    Jack McConnell’s 2001 reshuffle was compared to Harold MacMillan's 1962 'night of the long knives'. A source close to the Scottish Executive said: 'The only difference is this was during the day and the first minister used a claymore.'

    Regarding your “by early 2023” prediction, fill yer boots:

    Best prices - Clown exit

    2022 2/1
    2023 3/1

  • MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Leon said:

    ON topic, I don't buy this thesis. It's like the football maxim, Boris can only beat the opponent in front of him, not some imaginary "better" opposition. He has shown he can do that, twice as mayor and once as PM (handsomely, in the latter case)

    And of course, he won the Brexit vote, and that really WAS against the odds. There is a reason Cameron slumped with unhappiness when he heard Boris had come out for Leave: Cameron knew that Boris alone could win it. And so it was. No other politician in the UK could have won that Brexit vote.

    Without Boris, we'd still be in the EU. He changed global history. Something to ponder for Boris fans and foes alike

    None of this diminishes his troubles now. He is in seriously choppy water

    His troubles amplified by those previous choices being demonstrably wrong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    Download and complete your declaration of honour before you go. Pre-book your return PCR or LFT test before you set off back home, complete the online PLF, and complete the pre-booked test within two days of returning to the Uk. Sorted.
    Is it either or for the PCR/LFT? And does the LFT have to be private?
    It’s either/or, now, but has to be booked and paid for (not NHS for free) and certified.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    For light relief - Neolithic equivalent of HS2. Huge holes in the ground.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/nov/23/new-tests-show-neolithic-pits-near-stonehenge-were-humanmade

    Though it does seem to have got rather further (hard to tell as some of the likely sites have been destroyed/obscured by development).
  • Leon said:

    ON topic, I don't buy this thesis. It's like the football maxim, Boris can only beat the opponent in front of him, not some imaginary "better" opposition. He has shown he can do that, twice as mayor and once as PM (handsomely, in the latter case)

    And of course, he won the Brexit vote, and that really WAS against the odds. There is a reason Cameron slumped with unhappiness when he heard Boris had come out for Leave: Cameron knew that Boris alone could win it. And so it was. No other politician in the UK could have won that Brexit vote.

    Without Boris, we'd still be in the EU. He changed global history. Something to ponder for Boris fans and foes alike

    None of this diminishes his troubles now. He is in seriously choppy water

    So the analysis continues to be: Good at winning political beauty contests. Shit at doing anything thereafter.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Corbyn, Johnson and Brexit. Three dismal words that capture the hell of our recent political history. What did we do to deserve this?
    Avoided chaos under Ed Miliband?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    If you haven’t heard of them yet, it won’t be long:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD1gDSao1eA
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,348
    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    "Give him a script... and he can just about follow it."

    Not yesterday he didn't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of new C*v*d measures, just received a super-upbeat email from Eurostar telling me to get back on the train and myself over to Paris or wherever.

    I wouldn't have a clue what the requirements to go to Paris are atm. Pre-tests, post-tests, passports, no idea.

    Download and complete your declaration of honour before you go. Pre-book your return PCR or LFT test before you set off back home, complete the online PLF, and complete the pre-booked test within two days of returning to the Uk. Sorted.
    Is it either or for the PCR/LFT? And does the LFT have to be private?
    It’s either/or, now, but has to be booked and paid for (not NHS for free) and certified.
    Seems bonkers but do they not trust you to do it properly if left to your own devices?

    This is what I see changing and any LFT will do in time to come (hence my ordering them each day).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.

    He presents as someone drunk trying to pretend to be sober.
    He really, really doesn't

    God knows I drink enough, and am drunk enough, and have pretended to be sober enough. I doubt you've been really drunk a dozen times in your life? You know nothing of this

    If Boris was just a desperate secret boozer, like Charles Kennedy, it would be bloody obvious. He isn't. His problems actually go deeper than that, and they are more interesting. He has some deep neediness, related to his mum and dad, allied with a schoolboy shtick of "I'm just a bumbling amateur, hahaha" which got him into Eton, Oxford and the Buller, but this has now fossilised into a persona, all of which is sunk in a genuinely gifted and powerful intelligence, which means he lives at total cross purposes
    I’m intrigued by the concept that Boris Johnson is “gifted” and has a “powerful intelligence”.

    “Gifted” is normally a quality attributed to a child or young adult. There is something tragic about saying it of a man close to 60.

    The only evidence I’ve ever seen for him having a “powerful intelligence” is him narrowly losing the Greeks vs Romans debate to Professor Mary Beard. It was a surprisingly close call and not the Prof walkover you’d expect. (A truly intelligent debater would have whopped Beard, as it is blatantly obvious that the Greeks were more impressive.)

    Pericles and his ilk succumbed to the Plague of Athens. Johnson and his despicable ilk will be remembered as the Plague of England.
    FWIW as someone who's had a bit of contact with him, I think he's genuinely bright, but doesn't usually bother to apply it, since he's found that winging it is enough to win in every walk of life, so long as you're also affable and amusing. That has yet to be disproved, but I agree he's testing it to destruction. I do wonder if he's altogether well at the moment - he's arguably going beyond winging it to something more extreme.
    Looks like Long Covid to me. He’s not quite right.

    But could also be stress, sleep problems, depression, alcohol or some other explanation.
    Boris likes the idea of “getting things done”.
    But he’s not managed to deliver anything in the manifesto, and levelling up has been butchered by Treasury.

    It’s possible he’s just really fucking bored of the actual job.
    How long will Sunak survive if Johnson turns vindictive? He doesn’t strike me as the kind of personality that will tolerate his programme being butchered by the Treasury.
    It's too late - Boris has already had a reshuffle and can't now sanely do one until early 2023 - by which point he will have gone.
    He could insanely do one.

    Jack McConnell’s 2001 reshuffle was compared to Harold MacMillan's 1962 'night of the long knives'. A source close to the Scottish Executive said: 'The only difference is this was during the day and the first minister used a claymore.'

    Regarding your “by early 2023” prediction, fill yer boots:

    Best prices - Clown exit

    2022 2/1
    2023 3/1

    Interesting use of a metaphor in that quote - and ethnoculturally appropriate as Jack McC was brought up on Arran (and of course has a Gaelic name).
  • isamisam Posts: 38,544

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Corbyn, Johnson and Brexit. Three dismal words that capture the hell of our recent political history. What did we do to deserve this?
    Open up the labour market to the whole of Eastern Europe
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    edited November 23
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    "UK." "Country." Edit: in fairness,that answers your puzzle at it being an awful lot.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door


    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU


    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
  • TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    Yep. To a lesser extent, Margaret Thatcher's victories were as a result of Foot and Kinnoch. The difference between her and Johnson was that she was competent at government.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    edited November 23
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    "UK." "Country." Edit: in fairness,that answers your puzzle at it being an awful lot.
    Ah yes bad habit. England.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,581
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    I suspect I'm just too polite. My employer (University) "requires and expects" that I will wear a mask in corridors and in restaurant/cafes when not eating/drinking, so I do. Waitrose asks us to, so I do. And I do in other shops.
    Many now do not. At the Uni most students don't bother, and Waitrose mask use is declining, led partly by the staff who are now only around 50% mask wearing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You're projecting, I'm analysing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    Well, he did have "levelling-up" and "build back better", which if he had appointed a strong champion for could easily have sustained the mission of government for some years.

    He failed to do this, and so now those animating forces are at the mercy of the Treasury. Sunak has ensured that the only thing left for Johnson to do is to arrange a peaceful handover of power to his successor.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    "UK." "Country." Edit: in fairness,that answers your puzzle at it being an awful lot.
    Ah yes bad habit. England.
    Still, interesting to see it persisting there - as per turbotubbs' post just now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    edited November 23
    Leon said:

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick

    Hang on so governing is like Brexit?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Corbyn, Johnson and Brexit. Three dismal words that capture the hell of our recent political history. What did we do to deserve this?
    I think we ran over God's new puppy that he'd just got and loved to distraction.
  • Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    "UK." "Country." Edit: in fairness,that answers your puzzle at it being an awful lot.
    The UK can be described as a sovereign country or nation quite correctly.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853

    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    Well, he did have "levelling-up" and "build back better", which if he had appointed a strong champion for could easily have sustained the mission of government for some years.

    He failed to do this, and so now those animating forces are at the mercy of the Treasury. Sunak has ensured that the only thing left for Johnson to do is to arrange a peaceful handover of power to his successor, Sunak.
    FTFY - Sunak will then fix a few items (say HS2E, allow council payments to count towards the £86,000) and be good to go.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,320
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    We have truly entered the twilight zone with Bozza now. Just a bizarre episode, he presents as decidedly unwell.

    He presents as someone drunk trying to pretend to be sober.
    He really, really doesn't

    God knows I drink enough, and am drunk enough, and have pretended to be sober enough. I doubt you've been really drunk a dozen times in your life? You know nothing of this

    If Boris was just a desperate secret boozer, like Charles Kennedy, it would be bloody obvious. He isn't. His problems actually go deeper than that, and they are more interesting. He has some deep neediness, related to his mum and dad, allied with a schoolboy shtick of "I'm just a bumbling amateur, hahaha" which got him into Eton, Oxford and the Buller, but this has now fossilised into a persona, all of which is sunk in a genuinely gifted and powerful intelligence, which means he lives at total cross purposes
    I’m intrigued by the concept that Boris Johnson is “gifted” and has a “powerful intelligence”.

    “Gifted” is normally a quality attributed to a child or young adult. There is something tragic about saying it of a man close to 60.

    The only evidence I’ve ever seen for him having a “powerful intelligence” is him narrowly losing the Greeks vs Romans debate to Professor Mary Beard. It was a surprisingly close call and not the Prof walkover you’d expect. (A truly intelligent debater would have whopped Beard, as it is blatantly obvious that the Greeks were more impressive.)

    Pericles and his ilk succumbed to the Plague of Athens. Johnson and his despicable ilk will be remembered as the Plague of England.
    FWIW as someone who's had a bit of contact with him, I think he's genuinely bright, but doesn't usually bother to apply it, since he's found that winging it is enough to win in every walk of life, so long as you're also affable and amusing. That has yet to be disproved, but I agree he's testing it to destruction. I do wonder if he's altogether well at the moment - he's arguably going beyond winging it to something more extreme.
    Looks like Long Covid to me. He’s not quite right.

    But could also be stress, sleep problems, depression, alcohol or some other explanation.
    I don't think it is Long Covid, more Long Scrutiny - people are simply noticing characteristics that have always been there, but have previously passed unnoticed. He has two fundamental issues, both of which make him unsuitable as a leader. He is lazy (both physically and intellectually) and he is egotistical. It is a dangerous combo that results in chaotic and disjointed actions and decisions. He genuinely thinks his instinct is likely to be right. Anything more than the back of fag packet approach to understanding the detail is really quite unnecessary. When things go wrong they are other people's fault and they will be made to pay.
    Accurate, I think. And I'd just add the enormous arrogance. Other people need to prep, make serious points, tick the boxes, but not I. I'm first and foremost an entertainer. It's a bit like David Brent if he'd gone to Eton.
    Oh god, I've never seen the Boris/Brent connection, and now I can't unsee it.
    Snap.

    (Incidentally, very good pod about The Office (and other classic tv comedies) on the bbc app: “What’s Funny About…”)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    edited November 23
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You're projecting, I'm analysing.
    You would rather that the anti-semitic, Brit-hating, terrorist-loving c**t who you supported was a minor factor in the election result.

    But he wasn't.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    If Johnson holds both by-elections it probably makes him safe in Downing Street for another 12 months.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    The only sensible choice on the circumstances.

    Just a shame we sensibles are in such a minority.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023

    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    Well, he did have "levelling-up" and "build back better", which if he had appointed a strong champion for could easily have sustained the mission of government for some years.

    He failed to do this, and so now those animating forces are at the mercy of the Treasury. Sunak has ensured that the only thing left for Johnson to do is to arrange a peaceful handover of power to his successor.
    Yes the Red Wall was waiting eagerly to see if they would get such a champion. It is a crying shame for us all that one never came.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    edited November 23

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    "UK." "Country." Edit: in fairness,that answers your puzzle at it being an awful lot.
    The UK can be described as a sovereign country or nation quite correctly.
    But if you take it as a whole it does mandate mask wearing in part.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163

    My daughter’s school is recommending a daily LFT for the students until the end of term.

    There does seem to be a new, slightly raised, anxiety abroad.

    And to what end? We seem to be stuck between people who think we can suppress the virus and those who think we should now get on with living with it. My belief is that parts of Europe are showing that suppressing is not viable in the longer term. If a child is unwell, test them and if positive, keep them off school. But testing every day? Not worth it.
    I am having this daily in my workplace team. A clear split in attitude that is very hard to reconcile. I find it very hard not to question people who use phraseology like 'avoid complacency' and 'it's not over', and the dreaded 'stay safe'. Such is the language of suppression, which serves only to delay as far as I can see (and, even then, it's minimal unless you favour closing schools and sequestering hospitals).

    'GET YOUR JABS' seems to me to be the only rational message. Maybe I am wrong but that to me seems the logical outlook in the post-vaccine stage.
    My team has mixed views too. As you know, we have different outlooks on this, and we avoid being derisive about it. I think the same should apply to our workplace teams. There is a genuine difference of opinion in the public, and we should each respect the others.

    Now I've had two vaccinations and a booster, I feel reasonably safe myself - I'm going to see Dune with a couple of friends in a bit. But most of us know people who have recently had very bad bouts, including vaccinated people (though in my circle not yet those who've also had the booster), and I can why people who want to avoid that at almost all costs.

    And what are the costs? It depends so much on the workplace. In my office we've postponed reopening till the spring, since we find we can work 95% as well from home, and many positively prefer it. In other offices, it will have a big impact onm work.
    Absolutely. I stay neutral and make sure that no in-person meeting is compulsory. But, organising Christmas parties has been slightly problematic – most people are absolutely desperate to party but some are not and remind me of that fact. The parties are entirely voluntary but I sometimes worry that even by inviting people I am committing a faux pas. I'm very possibly being oversensitive.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    The only sensible choice on the circumstances.

    Just a shame we sensibles are in such a minority.
    My mum and dad and my friend voted Conservative as usual. I couldn’t understand my other friends who voted for Corbyn. I came to the conclusion they are are stupid.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    edited November 23
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
  • TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    I couldn't bring myself to vote Lib Dem because of their undemocratic views on the Brexit vote. Nor could I vote for Boris or Corbyn. So I went to vote as I believe is my duty and then spoiled my ballot.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    "The West's leaders agree that democracy is under attack. How they can defend it is less obvious
    Analysis by Nic Robertson, CNN

    Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko's willful manipulation of migrants, enabling their easy passage to and through his country toward the border of the European Union, is a classic assault on democracy by an autocrat who knows that any attempt to fight back risks undermining the bloc's sacred values."

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/23/europe/democracy-under-attack-belarus-intl-cmd/index.html
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    Well, he did have "levelling-up" and "build back better", which if he had appointed a strong champion for could easily have sustained the mission of government for some years.

    He failed to do this, and so now those animating forces are at the mercy of the Treasury. Sunak has ensured that the only thing left for Johnson to do is to arrange a peaceful handover of power to his successor.
    Yes the Red Wall was waiting eagerly to see if they would get such a champion. It is a crying shame for us all that one never came.
    At least we had one such person in charge of the vaccine taskforce (and if I ever said anything against Kate Bingham I'd like to apologise). Imagine if Dido Harding had been put in charge of it?

    My advice for Johnson would be to make Liz Truss Chancellor as soon as possible. Sunak appears determined to get the top job by undermining his boss, while Truss seems to want to achieve the same end by being good at the task she has been given - a method that Johnson will find easier to live with in the interim.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Which one don't you have.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You're projecting, I'm analysing.
    You would rather that the anti-semitic, Brit-hating, terrorist-loving c**t who you supported was a minor factor in the election result.

    But he wasn't.
    You replied to my post without reading it. It said that both Johnson and Corbyn were major factors.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door


    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU


    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    Such inventive genius that Rosena Allin-Khan shamelessly copied it a fortnight earlier.

    https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1197884965444366337?s=20
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    edited November 23
    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    I guess the operative word here is "manipulate". Everybody tries to persuade but I don't think most people manipulate. In fact, some of us feel a rush of self doubt when we do successfully persuade someone. It's a common experience for me to have a long debate about something, for the other person to agree with me in the end, only for me to quickly make a panicked review in my head of what just happened. Did I bully or bore them into submission? Perhaps I was wrong and now they're wrong too? And so on. And I've seen it happen too when others persuade me. I give in and they suddenly start to backpedal as if they've done something wrong. Such is not the behaviour of a manipulator. Unless they're very good.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    I’m not wishing to be a spin doctor for Labour, but maybe Corbyn thought it was a member of the public inside, not a terrorist with nail and ball bearing bomb like Corbyn’s appointed health secretary thought.

    It just emphasises my point doesn’t it. Not every picture of Corbyn fraternising with terrorists was doctored nor did he deny he supported their causes, so even without opponents spinning it, those of us moderates can form our own opinions from that can’t we, of the sensibilities and character of the man wishing to be the country’s Prime Minister.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Which one don't you have.
    I don't have numbers

    1
    3
    7
    8
    10
    12


  • eekeek Posts: 15,853

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Boris has to an extent been running on rails to date.

    Brexit - pre-ordained just pick a flavour (he picked the wrong one but he picked one)
    Covid - surround yourself by scientists and do what they say bar a few flashes of inspiration.

    No small achievement for sure but not the blue sky of creating policy. It is this that he is absolutely useless at. As we are seeing. Give him a script or set of actions and he can just about follow it. Give him a blank piece of paper and he folds it up into a paper aeroplane and shouts "Wheee" as it flits across the room.

    Well, he did have "levelling-up" and "build back better", which if he had appointed a strong champion for could easily have sustained the mission of government for some years.

    He failed to do this, and so now those animating forces are at the mercy of the Treasury. Sunak has ensured that the only thing left for Johnson to do is to arrange a peaceful handover of power to his successor.
    Yes the Red Wall was waiting eagerly to see if they would get such a champion. It is a crying shame for us all that one never came.
    At least we had one such person in charge of the vaccine taskforce (and if I ever said anything against Kate Bingham I'd like to apologise). Imagine if Dido Harding had been put in charge of it?

    My advice for Johnson would be to make Liz Truss Chancellor as soon as possible. Sunak appears determined to get the top job by undermining his boss, while Truss seems to want to achieve the same end by being good at the task she has been given - a method that Johnson will find easier to live with in the interim.
    If Sunak is intentionally undermining Boris, that's more Boris's fault than anyone elses (including Sunak).

    It's not exactly difficult to tell Sunak, No go and fix it...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,581
    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Awesome - can we guess which and make it a pb quiz?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
    I want that on his (long into the future) gravestone.
    we were stuck with him until we weren't
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,870
    edited November 23
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    Hmm indeed. It's a reasonably good photoshop (bit of searching brings up the image) but pretty obviously a fake (apart from anything else, Corbyn obviously wasn't there when the car was burning and he's shown uncomfortably close). Clearly bad taste, but possible to defend it as satire, I'd have thought? If it looked convincing and people actually believed Corbyn had done it then I see the damage caused. But as an (obvious?) joke I'm a bit concerned about 'damages' (what damage?) being paid here.

    Kind of thing that I wouldn't be too surprised to see someone share on a family whatsapp. I'd never tweet it, but I don't use twitter in that kind of way (or, indeed, much at all). How I think about it depends, I guess, on how 'substantial' the damages are. I'd have thought a public apology was more than sufficient.

    Can we transpose Johnson on to the Naked Gun 'nothing to see here' image with a sign saying 'Brexit' on the remains of the building without getting sued?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You're projecting, I'm analysing.
    You would rather that the anti-semitic, Brit-hating, terrorist-loving c**t who you supported was a minor factor in the election result.

    But he wasn't.
    You replied to my post without reading it. It said that both Johnson and Corbyn were major factors.
    I did read it. You are right they were all major factors but the most important one was Corbyn.

    But that said I'm sure someone has the evidence to support either your or my point. I tried a mini-google but gave up.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    Thankfully no tightening of Covid restrictions in Scotland today.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Which one don't you have.
    I don't have numbers

    1
    3
    7
    8
    10
    12


    Clear BS!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
    The more I ponder it, the more I wonder if he will be gone sooner than you think. I get Dura Ace's angle that Boris likes the perks of the job, and the status (and surely Carrie likes them even more, probably a lot more), but Boris is easily bored, and impulsive (as we have discussed), I can easily see him waking up one day, the baby screaming, the media haranguing him, everyone shouting at him, or looking disappointed - and he will think "Fuck this for a game of toy soldiers, I got Brexit done, I got us through the pandemic, I'm nearly 60 and I want to earn loads of money and trot around the world like Blair, then I can hire a million nannies as well"

    Highly possible. If it is going to happen it will be when the pandemic is clearly finished. Summer next year?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,870
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Which one don't you have.
    I don't have numbers

    1
    3
    7
    8
    10
    12


    You're just using your intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate us into believing that :wink:
  • TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Indeed but voluntary mask wearing is better than mandated mask wearing.

    Both because it means that people are choosing to do it, so that's a liberty issue, and because as @rcs1000 has said before people are intelligent and react to the news going on. So if cases start to rise as we head into winter and people get concerned then they can choose to start to wear a mask - they can't start doing that if it was already mandated.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
    The more I ponder it, the more I wonder if he will be gone sooner than you think. I get Dura Ace's angle that Boris likes the perks of the job, and the status (and surely Carrie likes them even more, probably a lot more), but Boris is easily bored, and impulsive (as we have discussed), I can easily see him waking up one day, the baby screaming, the media haranguing him, everyone shouting at him, or looking disappointed - and he will think "Fuck this for a game of toy soldiers, I got Brexit done, I got us through the pandemic, I'm nearly 60 and I want to earn loads of money and trot around the world like Blair, then I can hire a million nannies as well"

    Highly possible. If it is going to happen it will be when the pandemic is clearly finished. Summer next year?
    Nah. He is PM. It is what every politician and many non-politicians aspire to. The top. Numero Uno. You simply don't give that up unless you have to.

    He might be presented with a revolver and a bottle of whisky but it won't be voluntary.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 358

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    I couldn't bring myself to vote Lib Dem because of their undemocratic views on the Brexit vote. Nor could I vote for Boris or Corbyn. So I went to vote as I believe is my duty and then spoiled my ballot.
    Yes that is completely fair enough Richard. I too felt it was duty to go and vote. If there is not an option on ballot we can support spoil it perhaps with an intelligent write in, but we still done on our bit.
    My mum couldn’t wait to vote for Brexit. My dad always votes Conservative but isn’t keen on Brexit, or at least on the type of Brexit election. I’m just waiting to see what happens having not voted in that one as I couldn’t make my mind up.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Where? Not in London much other than the Piccadilly line from Heathrow.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    Hmm indeed. It's a reasonably good photoshop (bit of searching brings up the image) but pretty obviously a fake (apart from anything else, Corbyn obviously wasn't there when the car was burning and he's shown uncomfortably close). Clearly bad taste, but possible to defend it as satire, I'd have thought? If it looked convincing and people actually believed Corbyn had done it then I see the damage caused. But as an (obvious?) joke I'm a bit concerned about 'damages' (what damage?) being paid here.

    Kind of thing that I wouldn't be too surprised to see someone share on a family whatsapp. I'd never tweet it, but I don't use twitter in that kind of way (or, indeed, much at all). How I think about it depends, I guess, on how 'substantial' the damages are. I'd have thought a public apology was more than sufficient.

    Can we transpose Johnson on to the Naked Gun 'nothing to see here' image with a sign saying 'Brexit' on the remains of the building without getting sued?
    I'm also struck by the fact that Mr Nickerson goes further and withdraws any suggestion or inference that Mr C is a supporter of terrorist violence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Indeed but voluntary mask wearing is better than mandated mask wearing.

    Both because it means that people are choosing to do it, so that's a liberty issue, and because as @rcs1000 has said before people are intelligent and react to the news going on. So if cases start to rise as we head into winter and people get concerned then they can choose to start to wear a mask - they can't start doing that if it was already mandated.
    Yes that is true. My point I suppose was that masks are (in danger I think of) becoming the norm whatever the prevailing health issues. Is that a big deal? We have seen East Asian tourists for ages wearing masks out and about. But for me I don't like it at all.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,023
    edited November 23

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Where? Not in London much other than the Piccadilly line from Heathrow.
    In shops there is still tons of mask wearing.

    Edit: plus the last time I was on the tube (couple of weeks ago) it was 60-70% mask wearing.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
    The more I ponder it, the more I wonder if he will be gone sooner than you think. I get Dura Ace's angle that Boris likes the perks of the job, and the status (and surely Carrie likes them even more, probably a lot more), but Boris is easily bored, and impulsive (as we have discussed), I can easily see him waking up one day, the baby screaming, the media haranguing him, everyone shouting at him, or looking disappointed - and he will think "Fuck this for a game of toy soldiers, I got Brexit done, I got us through the pandemic, I'm nearly 60 and I want to earn loads of money and trot around the world like Blair, then I can hire a million nannies as well"

    Highly possible. If it is going to happen it will be when the pandemic is clearly finished. Summer next year?
    I'd be wary of such predictions. Some said the same about Trump before and during his time in office. He didn't enjoy it, it was more about the race than the podium, and so on. But come the end, he clung on like a bastard.
    Boris isn't Trump, but it's a common condition of those in power not to want to lose it. Cincinnatus was an exception to the rule.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    Yes

    And remember that brilliant Xmas Election ad with Boris at the door

    https://youtu.be/nj-YK3JJCIU

    The best British political ad I've ever seen. Powerful and persuasive, and it relies almost entirely on Boris' charm and charisma. Of recent prime ministers only Blair at his peak could equal that. Imagine Major or Cameron or May trying it on. Cringe

    Farooq made a brilliant analogy on the prior thread. Campaigning is like conceiving, Governing is like parenting. Boris is now surrounded by the tedious nappies of political reality (and real nappies, as well). He needs to learn to be a decent Dad, super quick
    That was effective but the killer (imo) was him driving a truck through the fake wall in that factory. The wall was the Brexit impasse and he just damn well drove through it and knocked it over, boom, it's gone. For the Brexit election, with most of the country sick and tired of the wrangling, it was perfect. Worth a million words. And it played to his big bear physicality, also it ... oh ffs I can't go on, all true, this stuff, but I just can't be typing any more of it out, it both bugs and bores me at the same time. BoJo gave us Brexit, yes, but a deeper truth is that Brexit gave us BoJo and we're stuck with him until we aren't.
    The more I ponder it, the more I wonder if he will be gone sooner than you think. I get Dura Ace's angle that Boris likes the perks of the job, and the status (and surely Carrie likes them even more, probably a lot more), but Boris is easily bored, and impulsive (as we have discussed), I can easily see him waking up one day, the baby screaming, the media haranguing him, everyone shouting at him, or looking disappointed - and he will think "Fuck this for a game of toy soldiers, I got Brexit done, I got us through the pandemic, I'm nearly 60 and I want to earn loads of money and trot around the world like Blair, then I can hire a million nannies as well"

    Highly possible. If it is going to happen it will be when the pandemic is clearly finished. Summer next year?
    Someone suggested Summer next year with a leadership election that ends some point after August 3rd 2022 (so beating May's length of service).

    I can't fault that logic EXCEPT given that (we suspect) Boris will want to beat May and so can't to any risk of a Sunak coronation (so no leadership vote) I can see him going on to September next year and then leaving.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    I’m not wishing to be a spin doctor for Labour, but maybe Corbyn thought it was a member of the public inside, not a terrorist with nail and ball bearing bomb like Corbyn’s appointed health secretary thought.

    It just emphasises my point doesn’t it. Not every picture of Corbyn fraternising with terrorists was doctored nor did he deny he supported their causes, so even without opponents spinning it, those of us moderates can form our own opinions from that can’t we, of the sensibilities and character of the man wishing to be the country’s Prime Minister.
    I think you have possibly missed the point. Which is that Mr Corbyn didn't lay a wreath. So how do we know what he thought when he laid a wreath?

    (AIUI the former Shadow Health Sec thought that the chap in the car was a stray member of the public caught up in the violence, but that is from a memory of a osting on PB by someone else.)
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    Hmm indeed. It's a reasonably good photoshop (bit of searching brings up the image) but pretty obviously a fake (apart from anything else, Corbyn obviously wasn't there when the car was burning and he's shown uncomfortably close). Clearly bad taste, but possible to defend it as satire, I'd have thought? If it looked convincing and people actually believed Corbyn had done it then I see the damage caused. But as an (obvious?) joke I'm a bit concerned about 'damages' (what damage?) being paid here.

    Kind of thing that I wouldn't be too surprised to see someone share on a family whatsapp. I'd never tweet it, but I don't use twitter in that kind of way (or, indeed, much at all). How I think about it depends, I guess, on how 'substantial' the damages are. I'd have thought a public apology was more than sufficient.

    Can we transpose Johnson on to the Naked Gun 'nothing to see here' image with a sign saying 'Brexit' on the remains of the building without getting sued?
    I'm also struck by the fact that Mr Nickerson goes further and withdraws any suggestion or inference that Mr C is a supporter of terrorist violence.
    Substantial damages = more than £10.

    That's lawyer speak for you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580

    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You are absolutely right Topping. 🤙

    Un prime ministerial Boris versus Un prime ministerial terrorist sympathiser.

    I voted libdem.
    Hmm. This has just popped up on the Graun feed.

    'A Conservative councillor has agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Jeremy Corbyn for a tweet containing a fake photograph of the former Labour leader at the scene of the Liverpool terrorist attack.

    In a statement posted on Twitter, Paul Nickerson, a councillor on East Riding of Yorkshire council, has apologised and taken “full responsibility” for the doctored tweet, which showed Corbyn laying a poppy wreath at the burning taxi outside Liverpool Women’s Hospital, and was captioned with the word “unsurprisingly”, PA Media reports.'

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/23/social-care-costs-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-sajid-javid-covid-uk-politics-live-latest-updates
    https://twitter.com/CouncillorPaul_/status/1463130394019209222

    Edit: some odd wording in the photographed statement in that tweet as to the circumstances of the original tweet-at-issue's posting.
    Hmm indeed. It's a reasonably good photoshop (bit of searching brings up the image) but pretty obviously a fake (apart from anything else, Corbyn obviously wasn't there when the car was burning and he's shown uncomfortably close). Clearly bad taste, but possible to defend it as satire, I'd have thought? If it looked convincing and people actually believed Corbyn had done it then I see the damage caused. But as an (obvious?) joke I'm a bit concerned about 'damages' (what damage?) being paid here.

    Kind of thing that I wouldn't be too surprised to see someone share on a family whatsapp. I'd never tweet it, but I don't use twitter in that kind of way (or, indeed, much at all). How I think about it depends, I guess, on how 'substantial' the damages are. I'd have thought a public apology was more than sufficient.

    Can we transpose Johnson on to the Naked Gun 'nothing to see here' image with a sign saying 'Brexit' on the remains of the building without getting sued?
    I'm also struck by the fact that Mr Nickerson goes further and withdraws any suggestion or inference that Mr C is a supporter of terrorist violence.
    Substantial damages = more than £10.

    That's lawyer speak for you.
    "and costs", mind. And grovelling in public.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Indeed but voluntary mask wearing is better than mandated mask wearing.

    Both because it means that people are choosing to do it, so that's a liberty issue, and because as @rcs1000 has said before people are intelligent and react to the news going on. So if cases start to rise as we head into winter and people get concerned then they can choose to start to wear a mask - they can't start doing that if it was already mandated.
    Yes that is true. My point I suppose was that masks are (in danger I think of) becoming the norm whatever the prevailing health issues. Is that a big deal? We have seen East Asian tourists for ages wearing masks out and about. But for me I don't like it at all.
    There probably will be some doing so, if so that's their choice. I have no qualms with that, so long as it isn't mandated and I'd prefer it to be a minority so there isn't pressure on those not wearing one.

    Around here I'd say ~10-20% are wearing masks depending upon shop and down to less than 1% in places like the Trafford Centre.

    The exception that surprised me recently was B&M, then it was roughly 40% when I went.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,581

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Indeed but voluntary mask wearing is better than mandated mask wearing.

    Both because it means that people are choosing to do it, so that's a liberty issue, and because as @rcs1000 has said before people are intelligent and react to the news going on. So if cases start to rise as we head into winter and people get concerned then they can choose to start to wear a mask - they can't start doing that if it was already mandated.
    True, but I am p!ssed off at the students who are not wearing the masks despite being asked and required to by the University. WaitroseI can let slide, but at the Uni we made plans to allow us to teach in person, and mask mandates was part of that.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Concerning that Northern Ireland is going back to Working From Home. That’s a chunk of the UK with the same vaccination experience as the UK.

    Did NI not open up as early and emphatically as England? What makes Belfast different to London?

    Genuine questions. Because if there isn’t a big difference then WFH could be returning to mainland Britain as well

    They have done fewer vaccines per 100 and they took a more European style reopening maintaining social distancing measures and mask wearing indoors. I don't think night clubs and late night bars have reopened there.
    The problem is that almost everyone in Europe outside of England kept with the notion that suppressing cases via NPIs was a good idea post-PIs.

    It was a terrible idea.

    It should have always been obvious that if you need a mask in the summer then how the hell are you planning on coping in the winter?
    That said, there is an awful lot of voluntary mask wearing atm in the UK for a country that doesn't mandate mask wearing.
    Where? Not in London much other than the Piccadilly line from Heathrow.
    In shops there is still tons of mask wearing.

    Edit: plus the last time I was on the tube (couple of weeks ago) it was 60-70% mask wearing.
    Piccadilly line? And which shops? Not up here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    FPT that list of sociopathic tendencies:


    - Lack of empathy for others
    - Impulsive behavior
    - Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
    - Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
    - Not learning from mistakes or punishment
    - Lying for personal gain
    - Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
    - Generally superficial relationships
    - Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
    - Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
    - Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
    - Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.



    I've got 6 or 7 of them. Does that make me semi-sociopathic?

    It's probably a fair description, but on the other hand these lists are absurd. I imagine most people tick several boxes. Who doesn't "use intelligence charm or charisma to manipulate others"? That's human society in a nutshell. Everyone TRIES to do that, at the very least, tho most might fail

    Which one don't you have.
    I don't have numbers

    1
    3
    7
    8
    10
    12


    Clear BS!
    12 is debatable, I grant you. Some of these things have come and gone in my life. I am sincerely trying to be honest. It would be interesting to know how many boxes are ticked by other PB-ers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    edited November 23
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    There's a boring 'in the middle' truth here. The Con GE19 landslide WAS due to Corbyn's weakness as a candidate. But it was also due to Johnson's strength. It was, truly, the Brexit election and it was Brexit that cemented the negative/positive view of the 2 leaders. For Johnson, hellbent on pushing Brexit through, his breezy 'can-do' persona was burnished. For Corbyn, dithering and triangulating, his previous rep as a man of principle was destroyed. So, that 80 seat result, it was Corbyn, and it was Johnson, but above all it was BREXIT.

    It was above all CORBYN.

    I loathe Boris. I loathe Brexit. But I loathe Corbyn about a million million million times more.

    And I imagine as I think so does perhaps a majority-winning number of reasonably centrist types around the country.

    It was above all CORBYN.
    You're projecting, I'm analysing.
    You would rather that the anti-semitic, Brit-hating, terrorist-loving c**t who you supported was a minor factor in the election result.

    But he wasn't.
    You replied to my post without reading it. It said that both Johnson and Corbyn were major factors.
    I did read it. You are right they were all major factors but the most important one was Corbyn.

    But that said I'm sure someone has the evidence to support either your or my point. I tried a mini-google but gave up.
    Brexit, for me, since it was the biggest (almost only) issue in its own right and it also impacted positively on Johnson's image and negatively on Corbyn's. Hence it had a massive direct impact and a significant indirect impact. This is to repeat the main point in the post I wrote so I think that needs to be a wrap.
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