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While CON maintains Opinium lead other findings are terrible – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 6 in General
While CON maintains Opinium lead other findings are terrible – politicalbetting.com

?NEW?The @Conservatives lead has fallen to 1 point in first poll conducted entirely after Owen Paterson’s resignation on ThursdayThe latest numbers for the @OpiniumResearch / @ObserverUK poll:Con 37% (-3)Lab 36% (+1)Lib Dem 9% (+1)Green 6% (-1)https://t.co/JnZH0GQG1S pic.twitter.com/Y6US4mCehU

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,585
    First like Labour, er, soon!
  • FPT - A thread or so ago, a new PBer from my own neck of the woods in the great Pacific Northwest mentioned that there is a very interesting recall election in December concerning a member of the Seattle City Council.

    Kshama Sawant is the (currrent) stormy petrel of Seattle politics. An Indian American immigrant and former software engineer for Microsoft, she first won election to the city council in 2013 as the "Socialist Alternative" candidate, narrowly (and surprisingly) defeating an incumbent council citywide. Her victory being due less to her avowed socialism than to her populist opposition to the city hall establishment. (Yours truly was one who voted for her at that time on that basis.)

    PBers may be interested to note, that Sawant's Socialist Alternative is the 3rd Millennium addition of Militant Tenancy. As noted last night, she is a Trotskyist Communist, not a Democratic Socialist as most Seattle media and voters imagine.

    Sawant again won election in 2015 this time for the District 3 city council seat (Capitol Hill, Madison Park & Valley, Montlake & parts of downtown). In 2019, based on the results of the August primary it appeared she was heading for defeat, but massive over-spending against her by Amazon caused sufficient backlash to help her squeak through to re-election.

    Her inflammatory rhetoric and occasional lapses in complying with public ethics laws have landed her in hot water more than once, and has now lead to the current recall.

    Sponsors of the recall held back submitting all the voter signatures they collected until AFTER the deadline for appearing on the 2021 general election ballot. Why? Because they calculated that they had a better chance of defeating her in a lower turnout election, with fewer younger & thus more progressive voters who are her base.

    However, yours truly is NOT sure that was such smart strategy. Because over the course of many hard-fought elections (primary & general) over the last decade, Kshama Sawant has built herself a strong grassroots organization in her chosen District 3 turf. It is largely "astroturf" because she raises a lot of money (sources largely unknown) which she does NOT spend on TV or mail or consultants, but instead puts her moolah into paying field organizers. A friend of mine reports that one of these guys has already stopped by to touch base three times in the last six months.

    Plus methinks that some voters who voted against her the last time around, will conclude that, while they did not support her then and still don't now, the specific charges against her just do NOT rise to the level justifying removal from office after having won the last election fair & square.

    Sawant's opponents will of course spend a LOT of money - again - trying to defeat her. But they vividly recall how in 2017, when she was on the ropes and going down after the primary, Bezos and his mega-bucks managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    edited November 6
    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.
  • HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    Straws and grasping at them comes to mind
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    Straws and grasping at them comes to mind
    Indeed Boris is living on borrowed time imho.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    Straws and grasping at them comes to mind
    Would still be enough for the Tories to retain power with the DUP in a hung parliament.

    Also shows Boris is still adding more to the Conservative vote than Starmer is adding to the Labour vote
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 6
    kle4 said:

    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.

    Well it is Morse, Midsomer Murders, Heartbeat and Poirot on rotate with soaps from 20 years ago.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,498
    Errr.. I wasn’t expecting a Mercedes front row lock out
  • This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,695
    edited November 6
    kle4 said:

    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.

    Indeed. Hardly seems worth getting up for!

    To turn on the tube that is . . .
  • Is not PB itself one of the proofs of the Existence of God?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 6

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,927

    Errr.. I wasn’t expecting a Mercedes front row lock out

    That was a very weird session, the Red Bulls have been well ahead and favourites all weekend, but couldn’t put a lap together when it mattered. Didn’t help that they all tripped over each other at the end. Should make for another good race tomorrow night.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    This is how it ends.

    Just a matter of when now.

    He might win in 2023, but he wont make the end of that term.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    Straws and grasping at them comes to mind
    Would still be enough for the Tories to retain power with the DUP in a hung parliament.

    Also shows Boris is still adding more to the Conservative vote than Starmer is adding to the Labour vote
    You are in denial, and an apparachik who us blind to the damage done to the party
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,585
    kle4 said:

    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.

    Same adverts can be seen on the gameshow channel "Challenge".
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    Straws and grasping at them comes to mind
    Indeed Boris is living on borrowed time imho.
    They all have a shelf life, although none of them want to hear it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    It's interesting that the ratings for Labour have also declined in terms of corruption/honesty.

    This suggests that, while they currently rate better than the Tories on this question there's a risk for Labour of making too much of this. It might reduce public trust in them too, and if the public become too cynical they won't believe that voting for Labour can produce change.

    They will need to develop positive stories to tell to go along with the attacks on the Tories.
  • HYUFD said:

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
    You cannot see the damage this has caused to the party and trot out every excuse that I am not convinced even you believe
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,745
    On the subject of Disney animated movies there is only one correct answer - The Lion King. For Pixar there is also only one correct answer - Inside Out.

    That is all.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837
    Hopefully Muhammad will be playing up front for the Toon ASAP
  • This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    This is how it ends.

    Just a matter of when now.

    He might win in 2023, but he wont make the end of that term.
    He may not make it to 2023 if he does not change and quickly
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    32m
    OBSERVER: ⁦
    @BorisJohnson
    ⁩ sleaze crisis deepens amid pressure on Covid deals #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    32m
    OBSERVER: ⁦
    @BorisJohnson
    ⁩ sleaze crisis deepens amid pressure on Covid deals #TomorrowsPapersToday

    drip drip drip
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376

    HYUFD said:

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
    You cannot see the damage this has caused to the party and trot out every excuse that I am not convinced even you believe
    If it was really causing damage to the party, Starmer Labour would be 10% ahead midterm, not 1% behind!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,833
    kle4 said:

    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.

    Who did you expect to be watching afternoon ITV3?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    As Johnson totters. Right on cue:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    44m
    SUNDAY EXPRESS: ⁦
    @trussliz - time to deliver the jobs of the future #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Spot on and not shameful more like disgraceful.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
    You cannot see the damage this has caused to the party and trot out every excuse that I am not convinced even you believe
    If it was really causing damage to the party, Starmer Labour would be 10% ahead midterm, not 1% behind!
    I just cannot understand why a so called intelligent person cannot recognise the damage to the party

    There is blind loyalty or constructive criticism to change for the better

    You are in the former category sadly
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705

    kle4 said:

    Haven't watched TV for a long time, but watching ITV3 for an afternoon is eye opening on the target audience from adverts. Endless ads on walk in baths, life insurance, death planning, giving to charity, mobility scooters, and now one on erectile dysfunction.

    Who did you expect to be watching afternoon ITV3?
    About what the adverts suggest, but didn't think it would be quite so obvious. Might as well begin every one with 'Have your grandchildren been letting you down?'
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,924
    22% think Johnson is 'Clean and Honest'!!


    I'm gobsmacked!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705

    Is not PB itself one of the proofs of the Existence of God?

    It may have a PB holy trinity, but I'm not sure the powers that be are entirely benevolent...
  • As Johnson totters. Right on cue:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    44m
    SUNDAY EXPRESS: ⁦
    @trussliz - time to deliver the jobs of the future #TomorrowsPapersToday

    And we all know what future job she's interested in.

    Seriously, this is the most easily broken code since Pig Latin
  • Recent scientific discoveries and analysis point to conclusion that the English Channel was created by a cataclysmic collapse of a massive ice dam extending from Kent to Calais, releasing a MASSIVE wall of water from the North Sea.

    In an instant a slow drip, drip, drip transformed past the tipping point into a tremendous, unstoppable torrent . . .
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837

    As Johnson totters. Right on cue:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    44m
    SUNDAY EXPRESS: ⁦
    @trussliz - time to deliver the jobs of the future #TomorrowsPapersToday

    And we all know what future job she's interested in.

    Seriously, this is the most easily broken code since Pig Latin
    Is it in cyber?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    32m
    OBSERVER: ⁦
    @BorisJohnson
    ⁩ sleaze crisis deepens amid pressure on Covid deals #TomorrowsPapersToday

    drip drip drip
    £500 million worth's of covid contracts into the frame says Observer. Can't see the details yet.

    Tick, tock...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    Roger said:

    22% think Johnson is 'Clean and Honest'!!


    I'm gobsmacked!

    Perhaps it was a poll of Strangeways prison and the Queens second son.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,924
    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    LOL!! Barrel scraping as art
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931

    Errr.. I wasn’t expecting a Mercedes front row lock out

    Me either.
    The Bulls nearly got beaten by the Alpha Tauri.

    From Verstappen’s comments it seems they just lost a bit of grip. The performance window of the soft tyres is very narrow - Mercedes seems to got it right for once. And Verstappen backed out of his last fast lap as he thought there would be a yellow flag.

    Race could be spicy, if the Bulls get a decent start.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    LOL!! Barrel scraping as art
    2% is gone in a day in a heated election campaign.

    Game on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,189
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris still preferred as PM over Starmer 28% to 26%.

    So Boris has a bigger leader over Starmer as preferred PM than the 1% lead the Conservatives now have over Labour overall

    LOL!! Barrel scraping as art
    True. The fact that Labour and Starmer are even crapper really isn’t a compelling point. It is a pitiful minimum and nowhere near sufficient to run the country.
  • The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    Roger said:

    22% think Johnson is 'Clean and Honest'!!


    I'm gobsmacked!

    A lot more than that vote Tory. That'll just indicate the core loyalist vote among the overall Tory support.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Pattern is clear.
    The Tory vote share and lead has been falling, very slowly, since June.
    The Labour one has been rising almost glacially over the same period.
    It is difficult to see what is on the horizon which might turn that drift around short term.
    Nwvertheless, Tory majority is too long. Have held we will have a '92 style result for a while next time. Followed similarly by 5 years of folk wishing we hadn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    Is not PB itself one of the proofs of the Existence of God?

    Doesn't the babelfish analogy therefore apply and therefore disproves the existence of god by showing he exists.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837
    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 6
    dixiedean said:

    Pattern is clear.
    The Tory vote share and lead has been falling, very slowly, since June.
    The Labour one has been rising almost glacially over the same period.
    It is difficult to see what is on the horizon which might turn that drift around short term.
    Nwvertheless, Tory majority is too long. Have held we will have a '92 style result for a while next time. Followed similarly by 5 years of folk wishing we hadn't.

    Boris I imagine if he won a third term would make sure he handed over to Sunak well before the following general election.

    He would then go off and make his millions and leave Rishi to do the Major pre 1997 or Brown pre 2010 stint.
    Boris won't be arsed to do that, having achieved his ambition to be PM and win multiple elections
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,695
    edited November 6
    kjh said:

    Is not PB itself one of the proofs of the Existence of God?

    Doesn't the babelfish analogy therefore apply and therefore disproves the existence of god by showing he exists.
    I have the faith that can move mountains that the answer is "maybe?"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    edited November 6

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
  • dixiedean said:

    Pattern is clear.
    The Tory vote share and lead has been falling, very slowly, since June.
    The Labour one has been rising almost glacially over the same period.
    It is difficult to see what is on the horizon which might turn that drift around short term.
    Nwvertheless, Tory majority is too long. Have held we will have a '92 style result for a while next time. Followed similarly by 5 years of folk wishing we hadn't.

    It looks glacial, but that's partly a result of getting several polls a week. Overall, Labour have reduced a gap of 12ish points to 1 or 2 points in five months. And unlike this time last year, there isn't an obvious triumph (like vaccination) on the horizon to halt the drift.

    Not too shabby for the boring guy.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    Throwing your lot in on polls taken after big political dramas is about as muggy as it gets.
  • kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    Personally have no objection PROVIDED that yours truly gets to choose their new monikers.

    Starting with Lord Dingleberry then working my way down.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,218
    Deltapoll, OTOH, have moved in the other direction, with the Conservatives leading 40% to 37%.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    Btw. Missed the post you tagged me in re Northumberland County Council and loss of Tory majority. Cheers. Didn't make headlines down here in Wigan for some reason.
    NCC does not seem at ease with itself.
    Looks like a potential LD gain. Nevertheless there are enough "Independents" to keep them in power.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,218

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    No one is bothered by the sale of peerages, which is ancient tradition in British politics.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    MaxPB said:

    Comment on the COVID data - all very good news. It also looks like the hospital funnel now has more people leaving it than entering, which makes sense given the fall in cases started about 10 days ago. In the England data I think we're about to see deaths level off and begin to fall within the next 2-3 days.

    What's been very positive is that after stabilising at about 0.9, the R has actually gone down to about 0.7, so even if we do get a few additional cases from schools being open again there is now quite a lot of R budget available to absorb any additional cases from schools for those last 10-20% of kids that haven't yet had it or been vaccinated.

    I've been having a think about what is driving the fall, the real time data from Google suggests that mobility is higher now than when we were registering 30% more daily cases two weeks ago so I don't think there has been any behaviour change. The booster programme is still in its infancy when one takes into account the 10 days needed for efficacy to go back up. The second dose programme has entirely stalled as well. We will get to something like 70% of the population covered with two doses by the end of the year.

    My gut feeling is that we've actually hit herd immunity now that the virus has burned through all of the kids in the country. There was always a very large reservoir of potential hosts for virus when we had stupid things like school bubbles running last spring/summer which meant that the virus always had somewhere to go even if it couldn't necessarily find viable hosts in the adult population due to vaccination.

    I really have to applaud the government for holding its nerve on high case numbers since the end of May. Other countries would have buckled under the pressure of their lockdown fascist scientists and media screaming at them to implement a lockdown. In fact some already have brought back pretty tough lockdown type measures like indoor social distancing and closing down certain hospitality venues like late night bars and clubs.

    It's looking more and more as though the light at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train and we really might be at the tail end of this in the UK.

    I was at a packed Christmas market today. Must have been thousands of people there, with 95% not wearing a face mask.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,267
    FPT...

    Q. Why don't we have carbon capture operating in the UK yet?

    A. Because twice over the government promised £1 billion of funding and then withdrew it. The first time round was slightly more complicated as the preferred project said that they needed £1.5 billion.

    Hopefully this time will be different.

    (I might have said that last time.)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837
    edited November 6
    Sean_F said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    No one is bothered by the sale of peerages, which is ancient tradition in British politics.
    Should it be acceptable though?

    An "ancient tradition" of corruption doesn't strike me as a tradition to be proud of.

    Weird hill to die on.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited November 6

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    32m
    OBSERVER: ⁦
    @BorisJohnson
    ⁩ sleaze crisis deepens amid pressure on Covid deals #TomorrowsPapersToday

    drip drip drip
    £500 million worth's of covid contracts into the frame says Observer. Can't see the details yet.

    Tick, tock...
    That really has much worse potential for the Tories than the Lords story. Lords sleaze is taken for granted by some, particularly among older voters, but the other story links the Paterson imbroglio with something that a lot of the public, including many Tory voters, are still very angry about : that the covid contracts still haven't been investigated.

    I'd be staggered if the Tories don't lose more ground due to that over the coming weeks.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    Roger said:

    22% think Johnson is 'Clean and Honest'!!


    I'm gobsmacked!

    Not surprised Roger, your political antenna does not work.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,835
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837

    Roger said:

    22% think Johnson is 'Clean and Honest'!!


    I'm gobsmacked!

    Not surprised Roger, your political antenna does not work.
    Are you saying Boris is clean and honest?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Comment on the COVID data - all very good news. It also looks like the hospital funnel now has more people leaving it than entering, which makes sense given the fall in cases started about 10 days ago. In the England data I think we're about to see deaths level off and begin to fall within the next 2-3 days.

    What's been very positive is that after stabilising at about 0.9, the R has actually gone down to about 0.7, so even if we do get a few additional cases from schools being open again there is now quite a lot of R budget available to absorb any additional cases from schools for those last 10-20% of kids that haven't yet had it or been vaccinated.

    I've been having a think about what is driving the fall, the real time data from Google suggests that mobility is higher now than when we were registering 30% more daily cases two weeks ago so I don't think there has been any behaviour change. The booster programme is still in its infancy when one takes into account the 10 days needed for efficacy to go back up. The second dose programme has entirely stalled as well. We will get to something like 70% of the population covered with two doses by the end of the year.

    My gut feeling is that we've actually hit herd immunity now that the virus has burned through all of the kids in the country. There was always a very large reservoir of potential hosts for virus when we had stupid things like school bubbles running last spring/summer which meant that the virus always had somewhere to go even if it couldn't necessarily find viable hosts in the adult population due to vaccination.

    I really have to applaud the government for holding its nerve on high case numbers since the end of May. Other countries would have buckled under the pressure of their lockdown fascist scientists and media screaming at them to implement a lockdown. In fact some already have brought back pretty tough lockdown type measures like indoor social distancing and closing down certain hospitality venues like late night bars and clubs.

    It's looking more and more as though the light at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train and we really might be at the tail end of this in the UK.

    I was at a packed Christmas market today. Must have been thousands of people there, with 95% not wearing a face mask.
    Where?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,218

    Sean_F said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    No one is bothered by the sale of peerages, which is ancient tradition in British politics.
    Should it be acceptable though?

    An "ancient tradition" of corruption doesn't strike me as a tradition to be proud of.

    Weird hill to die on.
    Probably not, but it's pretty well taken for granted.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    Knew you'd come along to defend this concept.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,745

    Sean_F said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    No one is bothered by the sale of peerages, which is ancient tradition in British politics.
    Should it be acceptable though?

    An "ancient tradition" of corruption doesn't strike me as a tradition to be proud of.

    Weird hill to die on.
    It is just the reality of the situation. What's more likely to hurt is the perception that Tory donors have benefited from COVID related procurement or any contracts awarded with suspicious timing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,835

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    Knew you'd come along to defend this concept.
    I’m not particularly defending it.

    But you can’t make the direct link to the payment, unlike Blair
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,267

    As Johnson totters. Right on cue:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    44m
    SUNDAY EXPRESS: ⁦
    @trussliz - time to deliver the jobs of the future #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Feck me! Didn't I predict this only this morning?

    In Truss we* trust.

    *By we I mean readers of the Express.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,624
     
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,578
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
    You cannot see the damage this has caused to the party and trot out every excuse that I am not convinced even you believe
    If it was really causing damage to the party, Starmer Labour would be 10% ahead midterm, not 1% behind!
    But it's relative innit? How far behind was Starmer a week ago?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705

    Sean_F said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    No one is bothered by the sale of peerages, which is ancient tradition in British politics.
    Should it be acceptable though?

    An "ancient tradition" of corruption doesn't strike me as a tradition to be proud of.

    Weird hill to die on.
    It shouldn't be. But given the number of ex MPs, almost MPs and party hacks in there, most people probably assume the rest come with a price tag.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    FPT...

    Q. Why don't we have carbon capture operating in the UK yet?

    A. Because twice over the government promised £1 billion of funding and then withdrew it. The first time round was slightly more complicated as the preferred project said that they needed £1.5 billion.

    Hopefully this time will be different.

    (I might have said that last time.)

    Ohhh spotted an excellent pedant moment. You couldn't have said that last time if it was the first time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    Knew you'd come along to defend this concept.
    I’m not particularly defending it.

    But you can’t make the direct link to the payment, unlike Blair
    When its happened 16 times in a row that's pretty compelling as circumstantial evidence goes though.

    If it's not a direct link then it's the most remarkable coincidence.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    geoffw said:

     

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

    They ought to be adroit at it after centuries of practice.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,637
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pattern is clear.
    The Tory vote share and lead has been falling, very slowly, since June.
    The Labour one has been rising almost glacially over the same period.
    It is difficult to see what is on the horizon which might turn that drift around short term.
    Nwvertheless, Tory majority is too long. Have held we will have a '92 style result for a while next time. Followed similarly by 5 years of folk wishing we hadn't.

    Boris I imagine if he won a third term would make sure he handed over to Sunak well before the following general election.

    He would then go off and make his millions and leave Rishi to do the Major pre 1997 or Brown pre 2010 stint.
    Boris won't be arsed to do that, having achieved his ambition to be PM and win multiple elections
    What is the point of Johnson winning election after election for his performance to wane and the nation to decline exponentially, which is what you are forecasting. The only function of that as far as I can see is for him to find enough time to ensure his chums can milk the cash cow dry.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,624
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

     

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

    They ought to be adroit at it after centuries of practice.
    There's nothing sinister about it.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    geoffw said:

     

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

    Reckon 2 likes for that is below par. Would give it a super like if I could.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,837
    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pattern is clear.
    The Tory vote share and lead has been falling, very slowly, since June.
    The Labour one has been rising almost glacially over the same period.
    It is difficult to see what is on the horizon which might turn that drift around short term.
    Nwvertheless, Tory majority is too long. Have held we will have a '92 style result for a while next time. Followed similarly by 5 years of folk wishing we hadn't.

    Boris I imagine if he won a third term would make sure he handed over to Sunak well before the following general election.

    He would then go off and make his millions and leave Rishi to do the Major pre 1997 or Brown pre 2010 stint.
    Boris won't be arsed to do that, having achieved his ambition to be PM and win multiple elections
    What is the point of Johnson winning election after election for his performance to wane and the nation to decline exponentially, which is what you are forecasting. The only function of that as far as I can see is for him to find enough time to ensure his chums can milk the cash cow dry.
    You asked and answered your own question most succinctly.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,585

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    House of Lords = House of UNELECTED HAS-BEENS!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

     

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

    They ought to be adroit at it after centuries of practice.
    There's nothing sinister about it.

    Usual dexterity?
  • The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    House of Lords = House of UNELECTED HAS-BEENS!
    The has-beens aren't the main problem. Has-beens will have some useful insights from the time that they were are-nows.

    It's the (electoral-politically) never-wases who chucked a pile of cash at a political party and subsequently gained a seat in the legislature form which they can never be removed.

    I'm sure it's always happened, but it's not right, is it?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,624
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

     

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The flood gates are opening kids, as every pol journo who has been sitting on a sleaze story heads up to their editor's desk...



    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    ·
    32m
    - wealthy benefactors seem guaranteed peerage if they take on temporary role as Tory party treasurer & increase their donations beyond £3m

    - in past 20 years all 16 of the party’s main treasurers (apart from most recent) have been offered seat in Lords

    If that is true Boris must not be involved then
    Not everything bad is his fault. That doesnt make things better, in fact it's worse as it means problems go deeper.
    Can't expect the plebs to understand how the real world works - of course wealthy benefactors should be entitled to peerages. What else are peerages for?
    I dont think anyone would be shocked people can still effectively buy peerages. But that the treasurers all get one is taking the piss a bit, to suggest all deserved one for other reasons
    If you are going to have then concept of working peers appointed by the political parties why are people surprised that senior party figures get them?

    The Treasurer’s role is more about leaning on your friends than giving yourself though
    As I said it's not a surprise. But it could be less obviously quid pro quo. That's gauche.
    That's when Labour do it. When it's the Cons it's maladroit.

    They ought to be adroit at it after centuries of practice.
    There's nothing sinister about it.

    Usual dexterity?
    Priorité à droite.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,585

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    House of Lords = House of UNELECTED HAS-BEENS!
    The has-beens aren't the main problem. Has-beens will have some useful insights from the time that they were are-nows.

    It's the (electoral-politically) never-wases who chucked a pile of cash at a political party and subsequently gained a seat in the legislature form which they can never be removed.

    I'm sure it's always happened, but it's not right, is it?
    Whether Has-beens or Never-wases, they are ALL UNELECTED!
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 103
    MaxPB said:

    Comment on the COVID data - all very good news. It also looks like the hospital funnel now has more people leaving it than entering, which makes sense given the fall in cases started about 10 days ago. In the England data I think we're about to see deaths level off and begin to fall within the next 2-3 days.

    It's looking more and more as though the light at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train and we really might be at the tail end of this in the UK.

    Fingers crossed. It looks like it might be a close-run thing in some places (chief of my local hospital is in the local news saying it's on the verge of 'ceasing to function as a hospital' and the government just declared us an Enhanced Response Area...)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited November 6

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    House of Lords = House of UNELECTED HAS-BEENS!
    The has-beens aren't the main problem. Has-beens will have some useful insights from the time that they were are-nows.

    It's the (electoral-politically) never-wases who chucked a pile of cash at a political party and subsequently gained a seat in the legislature form which they can never be removed.

    I'm sure it's always happened, but it's not right, is it?
    It's not right, but Labour didn't finish the job of reform, and the Tories ofcourse wouldn't be interested. Fewer donations and a stronger upper chamber aren't a particularly appealing combination.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 6

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, journalists, charity heads, ex generals, ex police etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation and if necessary can ask the Commons to thing again.

    Indeed on the whole most Lords were at the top of their professions or fields before they became peers, most MPs however were mid tier in their professions or professional political advisers before they got elected
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,768
    edited November 6
    HYUFD said:

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, charity heads, ex generals etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation
    It has some highly qualified people, and also a number of time-servers and hacks.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, charity heads, ex generals etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation
    They are an anachronism that needs abolitioning

  • eekeek Posts: 15,743
    HYUFD said:

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, journalists, charity heads, ex generals etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation
    All true but it also contains a number of placement and women - often failed politicians on the Labour side and multi millionaires on the Tory side.
  • The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    House of Lords = House of UNELECTED HAS-BEENS!
    The has-beens aren't the main problem. Has-beens will have some useful insights from the time that they were are-nows.

    It's the (electoral-politically) never-wases who chucked a pile of cash at a political party and subsequently gained a seat in the legislature form which they can never be removed.

    I'm sure it's always happened, but it's not right, is it?
    It's not right, but Labour didn't finish the job of reform, and the Tories ofcourse wouldn't be interested. Fewer donations and a stronger upper chamber aren't a particularly appealing combination.
    And the donations thing is fundamental.

    I get the arguments against taxpayer funding. But if we, as a public, aren't prepared to pay for politics, someone else will. And we can't be too shocked if the mega rich, the tawdry and the nutty buy up the system and define the options for the rest of us.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    edited November 6
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This week has been a shameful episode by a few at the top of the party and it would not surprise me that many good and hard working conservatives are exasperated and angry

    They have it in their own hands to take action, either to demand Boris listens to them, or take the necessary steps to replace him

    Most PMs would give their eye teeth to still be ahead, even if only by 1%, midterm as Boris is.

    Blair is the only recent PM who polled better than Boris is midterm
    You cannot see the damage this has caused to the party and trot out every excuse that I am not convinced even you believe
    If it was really causing damage to the party, Starmer Labour would be 10% ahead midterm, not 1% behind!
    But it's relative innit? How far behind was Starmer a week ago?
    The point I’d take from it is that, when every headline in the papers is slaughtering the Tories all week, they’re 1-3 points ahead and, when things are going well for them, they’re 8-10 points ahead.

    Doesn’t anyone else see things in this way? I can’t get my head around the enthusiasm to treat every poll outside the context of the ebb and flow of an electoral cycle

    It’s like a golfer hitting his first tee shot into the water and shooting a double bogey - it doesn’t mean he’s going to card 36 over par
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944
    HYUFD said:

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, journalists, charity heads, ex generals, ex police etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation and if necessary can ask the Commons to thing again.

    Indeed on the whole most Lords were at the top of their professions or fields before they became peers, most MPs however were mid tier in their professions or professional political advisers before they got elected
    Lord Botham. Enough said.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,705
    edited November 6
    HYUFD said:

    The Lords is just a state benefit for old party suck ups. Abolish it.

    The Lords is actually filled with experienced, successful people from businessmen, to sportspeople, politicians, academics, figures from the arts, scientists, religious leaders, lawyers, journalists, charity heads, ex generals, ex police etc as well as the handful of remaining hereditary peers.

    It cannot prevent bills being passed but has on the whole highly educated people with a stake in the nation who bring their expertise to scrutinise legislation and if necessary can ask the Commons to thing again.

    Indeed on the whole most Lords were at the top of their professions or fields before they became peers, most MPs however were mid tier in their professions or professional political advisers before they got elected
    I'm not against an appointed chamber but having one it needs to be much more demonstrative of its virtues and much more careful to not present its negatives - in practice that means to avoid seeming like a retirement home to get awkward people out of the commons it needs to appoint fewer ex MPs, or delay appointing them. And it needs to appoint fewer people who have worked directly for or made massive donations to a party if it does not want to appear as an easy way to make cash for that party.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,267
    kjh said:

    FPT...

    Q. Why don't we have carbon capture operating in the UK yet?

    A. Because twice over the government promised £1 billion of funding and then withdrew it. The first time round was slightly more complicated as the preferred project said that they needed £1.5 billion.

    Hopefully this time will be different.

    (I might have said that last time.)

    Ohhh spotted an excellent pedant moment. You couldn't have said that last time if it was the first time.
    No, last time was the second time. We are now trying to get it off the ground for the third time.

    Two clusters selected for 'Track 1'. Scotland not one of them. Let’s see what happens next.
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