What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
In my humble opinion, acting as a paid advocate for more than his MPs salary, in direct contravention of the rules, is abysmal behavour.
For the record, I feel extremely sorry for Paterson and his family for their loss of his wife - suicide is always a terrible tragedy.
If that is abysmal, then what do you call Webbe's behaviour, where she threatened someone with acid? Super-abysmal? Or Vaz's? Hyper-abysmal?
I'm not defending what Paterson did. It was bad. Abysmal? That's a word I's reserve for actions designed to hurt people, or that level of things. You may obviously differ.
I don't think they can be meaningfully compared. Abuse of office, as in his case, can be in a way more serious than an individual behaving in a terrible way in a personal capacity, though the immediate effect (especially if threats are carried out) is worse.
So both can be abysmal, in different ways, without suggesting they are the same.
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
I know you don't listen to a mathematician when it comes to maths, but I suggest when it comes to the law it is worth listening to the lawyer.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
What has Germany done? Missed it.
Panicking over rising Covid death rates.
Yes but what have they done about the panic? Arguably if you look at our media, we are constantly panicking over the rates.
They are considering restricting movement for the unvaccinated.
One of the questions many in Westminster have been asking over the past year and a bit is why the numerous Tory sleaze stories haven't had the sort of cut-through that similar rows and revelations had in the John Major years?
And I really don't know what the answer is...
John Major started a morality campaign - his MPs were not up to it, and it turned out he was having an affair!
People don't like hypocrisy. And when you place today's 'misdemeamours' against the sleaze of the past it looks feeble.
Cash for access Cash for honours Cash for questions Drug use Perjury to get out of speeding ticket Writing letters on behalf of paid employer which had some content related to health concerns, some lobbying
The thing that is worse for the government is using political capital to get support then back out. Next week / next month most voters will not know who Owen Paterson is but they will notice if Boris cannot get his MPs to support him.
Let's be clearer here
Writing letters in his position as an MP on behalf of a company paying him significant money while not mentioning it's on behalf of a company that paid him serious money.
It's definitely a case of
Cash for providing Political Pressure and quite probably Cash for Access (assuming said companies couldn't get access directly).
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
He would make an interesting Prime Minster, I think.
Bit of terrifying thought in some ways, actually.
If you want a terrifying thought, make me PM. Everyone would have to travel by train, running or hiking would be mandatory, and I'd spend 50% of GDP on obligatory rocket missions to Mars.
Oh, and I'll promise to get fusion power by the end of my term ... in a rolling 30 years ...
Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.
Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.
The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.
That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.
Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.
Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted
But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
From one of the reports today, Yorkshire CCC say that if he were an employee today Rafiq would be disciplined for historically calling Ballance a "Zimbo" whilst maintaining Ballance calling Rafiq a "Paki" is banter not a disciplinary issue. Seems quite extraordinary. Having said that I do hope action is more directed at the management and executive at the club than Ballance. The complete failure to investigate properly or change the culture is worse than it having happened.
That is exactly what Rafiq himself has said today.
Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.
Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.
The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.
That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.
Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.
Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted
But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
You see, this seems to me to be a fundamental misreading of the regular commentariat on this site. Which perhaps explains why sometimes you seem to find yourself 1 against the world. And there are more issues than just Brexit. Even on Brexit there are plenty of people capable and willing to call b*llsh*t when ludicrous arguments are put forward on the issue from their "side".
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
I must admit when I heard that on the radio, I thought it was more of a compassionate 'Ahhh' than anything more pointed. But I was only half-listening as I was driving.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
One of the questions many in Westminster have been asking over the past year and a bit is why the numerous Tory sleaze stories haven't had the sort of cut-through that similar rows and revelations had in the John Major years?
And I really don't know what the answer is...
John Major started a morality campaign - his MPs were not up to it, and it turned out he was having an affair!
People don't like hypocrisy. And when you place today's 'misdemeamours' against the sleaze of the past it looks feeble.
Cash for access Cash for honours Cash for questions Drug use Perjury to get out of speeding ticket Writing letters on behalf of paid employer which had some content related to health concerns, some lobbying
The thing that is worse for the government is using political capital to get support then back out. Next week / next month most voters will not know who Owen Paterson is but they will notice if Boris cannot get his MPs to support him.
Let's be clearer here
Writing letters in his position as an MP on behalf of a company paying him significant money while not mentioning it's on behalf of a company that paid him serious money.
It's definitely a case of
Cash for providing Political Pressure and quite probably Cash for Access (assuming said companies couldn't get access directly).
The main thing here was not so much the offence, which while pretty egregious was not worse than a few examples from MPs in the last couple of decades, but the government move to hold a (whipped) vote to change the rules after he was found guilty.
It's the shameless, blatant nature of this attempt to undermine the rule of law, with the PM's hands directly on it, which makes this uniquely infamous. Though doubtless not uniquely so for long.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
He would make an interesting Prime Minster, I think.
Bit of terrifying thought in some ways, actually.
If you want a terrifying thought, make me PM. Everyone would have to travel by train, running or hiking would be mandatory, and I'd spend 50% of GDP on obligatory rocket missions to Mars.
Oh, and I'll promise to get fusion power by the end of my term ... in a rolling 30 years ...
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:
"Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
That makes sense. I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.
I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.
(As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)
His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.
I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Same for me yesterday afternoon. A really sore arm this morning, but otherwise ok. Then started feeling a bit off and then later really crap and now ok except for sore arm.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
The Act is boringly specific.
(3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered— (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
The Act is boringly specific.
(3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered— (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
That's an appalling comment, even from you.
I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.
You can't seriously think that MPs were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act: Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:
A custodial prison sentence Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981
An sentencing council website: Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.
So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.
But, again, IANAL.
She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.
She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.
Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
The Act is boringly specific.
(3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered— (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
That's an appalling comment, even from you.
I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.
You can't seriously think that MPS were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
Do you have a link? I was perhaps foolish in taking PT's word for this but now I want to judge for myself.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.
Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.
Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.
The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.
That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.
Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.
Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted
But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
You see, this seems to me to be a fundamental misreading of the regular commentariat on this site. Which perhaps explains why sometimes you seem to find yourself 1 against the world. And there are more issues than just Brexit. Even on Brexit there are plenty of people capable and willing to call b*llsh*t when ludicrous arguments are put forward on the issue from their "side".
Good point. I have mentioned before that in my last 4 arguments with HYUFD I actually supported the fundamental point he was initially making in 3 of them, but I could not support the arguments he was making in support of those fundamental points. Sometimes people on your own side still say silly stuff (in your own opinion).
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.
They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
This has been a dreadful 24 hours in our politics and Claudia Webbe has just added to the likely negative reaction from the public to all politicians
These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere
These are a few bad eggs and not representative. Most MPs from all parties are good people. Remember how keen you are not to have the Conservative Party portrayed solely on HYUFD's posts. It's the same thing.
There cannot be a single Tory MP who now has even the remotest faith in the Prime Minister. Over the last 24 hours he has demonstrated conclusively that he is entirely untrustworthy and someone who is very happy to betray anyone at any time if it is convenient to do so.
Well everyone has always known that about Boris...
But...
He's a WINNER!
Until that demonstrably changes he's going nowhere.
The thing about him being “a winner” is all very good until he isn’t a winner. If he trashed the party then next election he won’t be a winner….. it also pre-supposes that there are not any other potential “winners” in the Tory ranks and in reality nobody knows until they know (sorry for the proto-Rumsfeld-ism…).
It might be that enough Tory MPs look at Boris the winner, look at shiny Rishi, look at Boris and then think that they need a new fresh “winner”.
Nobody knew Blair was a winner until he won but they could see he was fresh and connected with people. He had a “brand” like Rishi.
The 1922 chaps need to say to Boris “look old chap, you’ve been PM/world king, you “got Brexit done”, got COP26 done, got a start on levelling up - hand over the hard work of following it through to someone more focussed and enjoy your millions”.
Or is this too sensible…..
PS I write this as someone who had optimism that Boris could change and grow into the role but he’s just the wrong personality type. He won, got the Tories in now he should step aside - think of it like getting Big Sam in to save your club from relegation then thank him, pay him off and get someone in who can make the next season a success and avoid the need for a big Sam rescue in the future!
Perfect.
Sam Allardyce for North Shropshire. Its either that or the Newcastle United job.
You know what, Gary Neville might be tempted.
Only commentator accurately to predict the u-turn, several hours ahead of time.
I'm not sure political parties should be criticised for finding leaders who win elections. Surely that should be part of their raisin d'etre. Lablur seem to have forgotten that your leader can be as pure as possible with the correct views bit if they don't get elected they can't change anything
This has been a dreadful 24 hours in our politics and Claudia Webbe has just added to the likely negative reaction from the public to all politicians
These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere
These are a few bad eggs and not representative. Most MPs from all parties are good people. Remember how keen you are not to have the Conservative Party portrayed solely on HYUFD's posts. It's the same thing.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
That's an appalling comment, even from you.
I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.
You can't seriously think that MPS were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
Do you have a link? I was perhaps foolish in taking PT's word for this but now I want to judge for myself.
Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?
DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.
We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.
Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
This ought to be a lesson to all MPs: vote with your own conscience instead of relying on someone else's instruction. Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 31m Case rate contractions should accelerate from here, for a while. Looks to me like actual kids infections are contracting at ~20-25%/week. That's gonna make a huge dent in overall cases, very fast.
Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.
Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.
The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.
That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.
Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.
Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted
But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
In my considerable experience of life I’ve found that very few issues are clearly one side or another. Certainly one may start from a position but frequently, if not almost invariably one sees something in one’s ‘opponents’ argument, and one’s position moves. Slightly, slowly, but it does.
"Well this has certainly worked out well, three line whip to resignation in less than 24 hours. Everyone involved in this fiasco looks a complete clown."
"Who exactly thought yesterday's ploy was a good idea?"
"Paul Goodman's comment about the party 'pinning itself down by hostile fire in a cul-de-sac of its own creation' turned out to be brutally accurate. As was former chief whip Mark Harper's comment along the lines of this being one of the most 'unedifying episodes I have ever seen in 16 years as an MP'. Well, good to know it was all worth it. *sigh*"
"Just when you think Johnson has finally hit the bottom of barrel...It turns out he doesn't give a toss about Paterson anyway"
"Fancy our PM making a mistake he's normally so organised!"
"As many of the more sober minded of us warned, if you elect a clown expect a circus. This has been a disgraceful episode, triggered purely by friends of Paterson whispering in the clown's ear. Johnson remains an utterly unserious man who has just handed much needed ammunition to our opponents."
"That's a lot of political credibility and capital wasted in making a massive u-turn only hours after a decidedly foolish three-line whip. This government is setting new lows in terms of sheer incompetence and chicanery. Whoever calculated that Leadsom's proposed new committee under Whittingdale would gain traction should probably have a good look at themselves in the mirror."
"If this were the first screeching u-turn we had seen from this Government we could credit them for having the wisdom to admit when they were wrong. But we have seen many such u-turns, from Covid to school meals, over the past 18 months. The cumulative effect is that they make the Government appear dreadfully weak, and to lack the courage of its convictions at the first sign of criticism. Can you imagine Mrs Thatcher operating like this?"
A police officer who claimed he was too injured to walk has been jailed for defrauding his force out of £150,000, after an app on his mobile phone showed he had been taking 10,000 steps a day.
PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.
A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.
When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.
A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.
Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens
Labour MPs have been warned of a security risk after their home addresses and personal phone numbers were hacked as part of a major cyber attack affecting Labour Party data.
MPs have been told to contact parliamentary security if they believe their current home address was registered on Labour’s database.
The breach comes amid heightened concerns about MPs’ security after Sir David Amess, the Tory MP for Southend West, was stabbed to death at his constituency surgery last month.
In an email to all Labour MPs, the director of parliamentary security, Alison Giles, said that “a significant quantity of information” had been affected by a cyber attack. The breach affected a third party which handles members’ data on Labour’s behalf.
Giles said this included any personal data MPs have provided to the Labour Party, including their full address details in London and their constituencies, personal phone numbers and email addresses.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
One for the lawyers:
IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
Well, some of us.
99.9999% of us.
Everyone dies eventually.
Speak for yourself.
There have been over 17,000 daily observations of me being alive. How many more do we need to realise that we're not going to see a contrary one?
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.
They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?
DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.
We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
Points been made elsewhere but that are severe limitations on children's vaccinations due to the fact that you aren't supposed to have a vaccination within 28 days of infection. Given the numbers that are believed to have contracted Covid in the last few weeks that creates quite a large barrier. (also school children are only being guaranteed one dose at the moment - probably not surprising if many are concluding that it won't give them any protection that they don't already have)
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.
(As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)
His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.
I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.
Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
This ought to be a lesson to all MPs: vote with your own conscience instead of relying on someone else's instruction. Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:
"Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
That makes sense. I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.
I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
One of the questions many in Westminster have been asking over the past year and a bit is why the numerous Tory sleaze stories haven't had the sort of cut-through that similar rows and revelations had in the John Major years?
And I really don't know what the answer is...
John Major started a morality campaign - his MPs were not up to it, and it turned out he was having an affair!
People don't like hypocrisy. And when you place today's 'misdemeamours' against the sleaze of the past it looks feeble.
Cash for access Cash for honours Cash for questions Drug use Perjury to get out of speeding ticket Writing letters on behalf of paid employer which had some content related to health concerns, some lobbying
Yep. People hoping this fiasco is the beginning of the end for Boris Johnson are going to be in for a (nother) letdown.
Boris flying around by private plane while lecturing everyone about Climate Change is probably more damaging to him than the Patterson affair to be honest...
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
That's an appalling comment, even from you.
I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.
You can't seriously think that MPs were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
Yes I do seriously think that people were mocking it. The fact they did the same mocking "ahhs" twice makes it worse not better.
If you don't like "emotional blackmail" then sit in stony silence through that bit and make the point with cold logic afterwards - not sarcastic mocking noises when someone's death is brought up!
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
Well, some of us.
99.9999% of us.
Everyone dies eventually.
Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?
DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.
We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.
Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.
The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.
That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.
Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.
Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted
But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
In my considerable experience of life I’ve found that very few issues are clearly one side or another. Certainly one may start from a position but frequently, if not almost invariably one sees something in one’s ‘opponents’ argument, and one’s position moves. Slightly, slowly, but it does.
Quite. There are some issues where people will have very strong and fixed views because they have given them a lot of thought and been refined through many arguments/discussions. Others they may have no more than an instinctive view which could end up on a complete 180 once subjected to well argued and/or expert opposition.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
Well, some of us.
99.9999% of us.
Everyone dies eventually.
Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.
They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.
The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
"Well this has certainly worked out well, three line whip to resignation in less than 24 hours. Everyone involved in this fiasco looks a complete clown."
"Who exactly thought yesterday's ploy was a good idea?"
"Paul Goodman's comment about the party 'pinning itself down by hostile fire in a cul-de-sac of its own creation' turned out to be brutally accurate. As was former chief whip Mark Harper's comment along the lines of this being one of the most 'unedifying episodes I have ever seen in 16 years as an MP'. Well, good to know it was all worth it. *sigh*"
"Just when you think Johnson has finally hit the bottom of barrel...It turns out he doesn't give a toss about Paterson anyway"
"Fancy our PM making a mistake he's normally so organised!"
"As many of the more sober minded of us warned, if you elect a clown expect a circus. This has been a disgraceful episode, triggered purely by friends of Paterson whispering in the clown's ear. Johnson remains an utterly unserious man who has just handed much needed ammunition to our opponents."
"That's a lot of political credibility and capital wasted in making a massive u-turn only hours after a decidedly foolish three-line whip. This government is setting new lows in terms of sheer incompetence and chicanery. Whoever calculated that Leadsom's proposed new committee under Whittingdale would gain traction should probably have a good look at themselves in the mirror."
"If this were the first screeching u-turn we had seen from this Government we could credit them for having the wisdom to admit when they were wrong. But we have seen many such u-turns, from Covid to school meals, over the past 18 months. The cumulative effect is that they make the Government appear dreadfully weak, and to lack the courage of its convictions at the first sign of criticism. Can you imagine Mrs Thatcher operating like this?"
I'm beginning to wonder if Johnson will lose the South but keep the Midlands and Red Wall, as traditional Tories sit on their hands on mass in 2023/4.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.
In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.
- The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc. - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
Quite.
Personal anecdote alert.
A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....
In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.
Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.
As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.
Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
This ought to be a lesson to all MPs: vote with your own conscience instead of relying on someone else's instruction. Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
Not really. A politician who ALWAYS votes with their conscience, especially when heavy whipping is in place, is not one who is likely to go far (if they have aspirations to Govt). There is a reason why there are issues in Parliament which are specifically designated "matters of conscience"!
I would also add that whilst the rebels yesterday may have been voting with their conscience, i suspect that there may also have been calculations based on the likely response in their own constituencies as well...
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
Well, some of us.
99.9999% of us.
Everyone dies eventually.
Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:
"Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
That makes sense. I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.
I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
Nigel is giving his opinion having heard it. Now no doubt Nigel and the Guardian are capable of bias (particularly the Guardian), but don't you think it is possible that they have done a reasonable job and Nigel has spotted that is the case. Did you listen to the debate and read the Guardian article to know that Nigel is wrong?
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.
(As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)
His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.
I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
It's not ungallant. Sometimes our friends can help us see our own best interests better than we can.
He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:
"Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
That makes sense. I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.
I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
Nigel is giving his opinion having heard it. Now no doubt Nigel and the Guardian are capable of bias (particularly the Guardian), but don't you think it is possible that they have done a reasonable job and Nigel has spotted that is the case. Did you listen to the debate and read the Guardian article to know that Nigel is wrong?
Especially as the Guardian made a point of inquiring into the matter rather than simply quoting X or Y.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
Well, some of us.
99.9999% of us.
Everyone dies eventually.
Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
Taxation is a form of restriction.
And I'm against all unnecessary taxation, so not sure what point you're trying to make.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.
They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.
The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
Lulled into a false sense of security (as they were last year) by assuming that what is alleged "going wrong" in the UK is a consequence of UK Government incompetence and not just the reality that the UK is further along the curve (eg. because early vaccinations meant waning happened earlier). And some of the EU may actually be more exposed BECAUSE they have been maintaining restrictions whereas the UK has got a lot of it out of the way in the Summer...
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.
(As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)
His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.
I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
It's not ungallant. Sometimes our friends can help us see our own best interests better than we can.
He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
There are friends and there are professional associates. Sometimes the latter really are friends, sometimes………
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?
Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.
They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.
The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
Lulled into a false sense of security (as they were last year) by assuming that what is alleged "going wrong" in the UK is a consequence of UK Government incompetence and not just the reality that the UK is further along the curve (eg. because early vaccinations meant waning happened earlier). And some of the EU may actually be more exposed BECAUSE they have been maintaining restrictions whereas the UK has got a lot of it out of the way in the Summer...
The thing is that when lockdown was lifted it was explicitly said that there would be an exit wave of cases and its better to get it done with now in the summer than in the winter.
And some people still view higher cases in unrestricted UK versus restricted Europe as a failure rather than a success. 🤦♂️
The UK is going to have an unrestricted winter with herd immunity from vaccines, boosters and natural immunity. The European nations that foolishly kept restrictions in the summer aren't going to be able to lift them in the winter and may have to ratchet them even further instead.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
That did not happen, IMO.
As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.
But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?
DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.
We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
In England, 0.8% or 12-15 year olds are being given first jab a day, (slightly less at weekends) about 5% a week, and we are on 25.3% at the moment. Maybe that rate will pick up a bit now half term is over, but I would think another 5 weeks or so at this rate or slightly feaster, taking us to 50-60% i.e. in line with the 16-17 year olds. that will be around 1.3 million more jabs, 2% is of population.
Sad that its taken this long, but Good that its happening, and good that most/all who what it will get it before the coldest/darkest part of the year. however as by some estimates 3/4 of this age group have all ready had COVID, it wont have the impact one might imagine 1.3 million first jabs having.
Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!
Is he a chump or do you stop to think for one second that he actually genuinely thinks that Paterson was in the right and an injustice has been done?
The two are not mutially exclusive, especially in view of the information published to date, and SKS pointing out that the process does involve an integral appeal.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.
In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
Loonies is the same north and south of the border.
I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.
The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.
Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.
Something which was rebutted extensively.
I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well. They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.
I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
That did not happen, IMO.
As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.
But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
A gasp is one thing, mocking "ahhs" are inexcusable. Especially when they're done not once, but twice on the same day.
If you have nothing nice to say when someone's death is mentioned then you don't say anything at all. Sit in silence at that point then speak when its your turn and make your point. Clearly sarcastic mocking "ahhs" is offensive and belittling her death.
What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?
From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.
Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.
So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?
In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.
It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.
His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.
Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?
But that wasn't my main point.
No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
One for the lawyers:
IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."
A police officer who claimed he was too injured to walk has been jailed for defrauding his force out of £150,000, after an app on his mobile phone showed he had been taking 10,000 steps a day.
PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.
A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.
When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.
A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.
Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens
Whilst at Uni (gulp!) nearly 30 years ago, I had a health issue that meant I found it hard to walk at times. I was in a lot of pain. This got me a room in Halls for my second year, and in the Halls nearest uni.
Yet occasionally during that second year, I would walk seven or so miles along the Regents Canal to Paddington, and get the tube back. People would ask how I could do that if the pain was so bad. The answer was simple; the pain often reduced, and I liked to fight it. Because it was nerve damage, walking itself didn't seem to make the pain worse, and walking helped my mood immeasurably.
There was no way I could have done anything that involved me regularly and reliably walking, because I could never know when the pain would strike. That meant I could have had no job that relied on my walking alot - even if I occasionally could.
Though this isn't the case here ("lift a kettle"), I'm always a little concerned when people accuse others of not being disabled. Often people are lying, but sometimes pain can be intermittent, and people can be fighting it. But the pain can still be something that is debilitating.
The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.
The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.
The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
No, I must not, I must not, I must not ...
We live with death happening on a daily basis kinabalu. On a daily basis 99.999% of people are not dying and 99.9999% of people are not dying from Covid (0.0009% are dying from other causes).
If you think you can eliminate death then that's just silly.
Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.
Let's see what the side effects are like...
My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.
In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
Loonies is the same north and south of the border.
I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.
Comments
So both can be abysmal, in different ways, without suggesting they are the same.
Writing letters in his position as an MP on behalf of a company paying him significant money while not mentioning it's on behalf of a company that paid him serious money.
It's definitely a case of
Cash for providing Political Pressure and quite probably Cash for Access (assuming said companies couldn't get access directly).
That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
Oh, and I'll promise to get fusion power by the end of my term ... in a rolling 30 years ...
Everyone dies eventually.
It's the shameless, blatant nature of this attempt to undermine the rule of law, with the PM's hands directly on it, which makes this uniquely infamous. Though doubtless not uniquely so for long.
I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.
I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04
(As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)
His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.
I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
(3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered—
(a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1456291974244413441?t=j5qsu4J8uwbdGPQttiy3nA&s=19
I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.
You can't seriously think that MPs were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
Were it me it wouldn't have been an ahh it would have been a gasp of disbelief.
These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere
Remember how keen you are not to have the Conservative Party portrayed solely on HYUFD's posts. It's the same thing.
His threat of strike action was fairly typical of him - a massive overestimation of the extent to which people agree with him.
I quite liked this article about him: https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20211026/281612423609281
Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?
DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.
We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
And I'm here for the footie updates-
5.45
Genk V West Ham
Brondby IF V Rangers
8.00
Leicester City V Spartak Moscow
Ferencvaros V Celtic
@andrew_lilico
·
31m
Case rate contractions should accelerate from here, for a while. Looks to me like actual kids infections are contracting at ~20-25%/week. That's gonna make a huge dent in overall cases, very fast.
"Well this has certainly worked out well, three line whip to resignation in less than 24 hours. Everyone involved in this fiasco looks a complete clown."
"Who exactly thought yesterday's ploy was a good idea?"
"Paul Goodman's comment about the party 'pinning itself down by hostile fire in a cul-de-sac of its own creation' turned out to be brutally accurate. As was former chief whip Mark Harper's comment along the lines of this being one of the most 'unedifying episodes I have ever seen in 16 years as an MP'. Well, good to know it was all worth it. *sigh*"
"Just when you think Johnson has finally hit the bottom of barrel...It turns out he doesn't give a toss about Paterson anyway"
"Fancy our PM making a mistake he's normally so organised!"
"As many of the more sober minded of us warned, if you elect a clown expect a circus. This has been a disgraceful episode, triggered purely by friends of Paterson whispering in the clown's ear. Johnson remains an utterly unserious man who has just handed much needed ammunition to our opponents."
"That's a lot of political credibility and capital wasted in making a massive u-turn only hours after a decidedly foolish three-line whip. This government is setting new lows in terms of sheer incompetence and chicanery. Whoever calculated that Leadsom's proposed new committee under Whittingdale would gain traction should probably have a good look at themselves in the mirror."
"If this were the first screeching u-turn we had seen from this Government we could credit them for having the wisdom to admit when they were wrong. But we have seen many such u-turns, from Covid to school meals, over the past 18 months. The cumulative effect is that they make the Government appear dreadfully weak, and to lack the courage of its convictions at the first sign of criticism. Can you imagine Mrs Thatcher operating like this?"
PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.
A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.
When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.
A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.
Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-officer-too-injured-to-walk-took-10-000-steps-a-day-bvz2csn25
Labour MPs have been warned of a security risk after their home addresses and personal phone numbers were hacked as part of a major cyber attack affecting Labour Party data.
MPs have been told to contact parliamentary security if they believe their current home address was registered on Labour’s database.
The breach comes amid heightened concerns about MPs’ security after Sir David Amess, the Tory MP for Southend West, was stabbed to death at his constituency surgery last month.
In an email to all Labour MPs, the director of parliamentary security, Alison Giles, said that “a significant quantity of information” had been affected by a cyber attack. The breach affected a third party which handles members’ data on Labour’s behalf.
Giles said this included any personal data MPs have provided to the Labour Party, including their full address details in London and their constituencies, personal phone numbers and email addresses.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mps-warned-of-security-risk-as-their-home-addresses-are-hacked-8tx7zkkxk
IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."
I might be wrong ...
There have been over 17,000 daily observations of me being alive. How many more do we need to realise that we're not going to see a contrary one?
The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
Boris flying around by private plane while lecturing everyone about Climate Change is probably more damaging to him than the Patterson affair to be honest...
If you don't like "emotional blackmail" then sit in stony silence through that bit and make the point with cold logic afterwards - not sarcastic mocking noises when someone's death is brought up!
The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
I would also add that whilst the rebels yesterday may have been voting with their conscience, i suspect that there may also have been calculations based on the likely response in their own constituencies as well...
He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
And some people still view higher cases in unrestricted UK versus restricted Europe as a failure rather than a success. 🤦♂️
The UK is going to have an unrestricted winter with herd immunity from vaccines, boosters and natural immunity. The European nations that foolishly kept restrictions in the summer aren't going to be able to lift them in the winter and may have to ratchet them even further instead.
As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.
But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=England
Sad that its taken this long, but Good that its happening, and good that most/all who what it will get it before the coldest/darkest part of the year. however as by some estimates 3/4 of this age group have all ready had COVID, it wont have the impact one might imagine 1.3 million first jabs having.
I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.
But the person (he/she) said loonie not loon
If you have nothing nice to say when someone's death is mentioned then you don't say anything at all. Sit in silence at that point then speak when its your turn and make your point. Clearly sarcastic mocking "ahhs" is offensive and belittling her death.
However, I'd like to add one thing.
Whilst at Uni (gulp!) nearly 30 years ago, I had a health issue that meant I found it hard to walk at times. I was in a lot of pain. This got me a room in Halls for my second year, and in the Halls nearest uni.
Yet occasionally during that second year, I would walk seven or so miles along the Regents Canal to Paddington, and get the tube back. People would ask how I could do that if the pain was so bad. The answer was simple; the pain often reduced, and I liked to fight it. Because it was nerve damage, walking itself didn't seem to make the pain worse, and walking helped my mood immeasurably.
There was no way I could have done anything that involved me regularly and reliably walking, because I could never know when the pain would strike. That meant I could have had no job that relied on my walking alot - even if I occasionally could.
Though this isn't the case here ("lift a kettle"), I'm always a little concerned when people accuse others of not being disabled. Often people are lying, but sometimes pain can be intermittent, and people can be fighting it. But the pain can still be something that is debilitating.
Pain is a weird thing.
If you think you can eliminate death then that's just silly.