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We have a by election in North Shropshire – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.

    Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.

    The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.

    That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.


    Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.

    Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
    Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted

    But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
    It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
    You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
    There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
    Either way. Take it easy HY.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAK - Nike pull their involvement with @YorkshireCCC as official kit supplier...

    “Nike will no longer be the kit supplier for Yorkshire CCC. We stand firmly against racism and discrimination of any kind.”

    https://twitter.com/SarahDawkins23/status/1456293007255347201

    From one of the reports today, Yorkshire CCC say that if he were an employee today Rafiq would be disciplined for historically calling Ballance a "Zimbo" whilst maintaining Ballance calling Rafiq a "Paki" is banter not a disciplinary issue. Seems quite extraordinary. Having said that I do hope action is more directed at the management and executive at the club than Ballance. The complete failure to investigate properly or change the culture is worse than it having happened.
    That is exactly what Rafiq himself has said today.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.

    Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.

    The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.

    That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.


    Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.

    Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
    Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted

    But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
    It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
    You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
    There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
    You see, this seems to me to be a fundamental misreading of the regular commentariat on this site. Which perhaps explains why sometimes you seem to find yourself 1 against the world. And there are more issues than just Brexit. Even on Brexit there are plenty of people capable and willing to call b*llsh*t when ludicrous arguments are put forward on the issue from their "side".
  • Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    I must admit when I heard that on the radio, I thought it was more of a compassionate 'Ahhh' than anything more pointed. But I was only half-listening as I was driving.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited November 2021

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Interesting question in that article

    One of the questions many in Westminster have been asking over the past year and a bit is why the numerous Tory sleaze stories haven't had the sort of cut-through that similar rows and revelations had in the John Major years?

    And I really don't know what the answer is...
    John Major started a morality campaign - his MPs were not up to it, and it turned out he was having an affair!

    People don't like hypocrisy. And when you place today's 'misdemeamours' against the sleaze of the past it looks feeble.

    Cash for access
    Cash for honours
    Cash for questions
    Drug use
    Perjury to get out of speeding ticket
    Writing letters on behalf of paid employer which had some content related to health concerns, some lobbying

    The thing that is worse for the government is using political capital to get support then back out. Next week / next month most voters will not know who Owen Paterson is but they will notice if Boris cannot get his MPs to support him.
    Let's be clearer here

    Writing letters in his position as an MP on behalf of a company paying him significant money while not mentioning it's on behalf of a company that paid him serious money.

    It's definitely a case of

    Cash for providing Political Pressure and quite probably Cash for Access (assuming said companies couldn't get access directly).
    The main thing here was not so much the offence, which while pretty egregious was not worse than a few examples from MPs in the last couple of decades, but the government move to hold a (whipped) vote to change the rules after he was found guilty.

    It's the shameless, blatant nature of this attempt to undermine the rule of law, with the PM's hands directly on it, which makes this uniquely infamous. Though doubtless not uniquely so for long.
  • eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
    Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
  • eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    He would make an interesting Prime Minster, I think.

    Bit of terrifying thought in some ways, actually.
    If you want a terrifying thought, make me PM. Everyone would have to travel by train, running or hiking would be mandatory, and I'd spend 50% of GDP on obligatory rocket missions to Mars.

    Oh, and I'll promise to get fusion power by the end of my term ... in a rolling 30 years ... ;)
    You had me at trains.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited November 2021
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/04/uk-politics-live-tory-sleaze-owen-paterson-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-latest-updates

    "Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
    That makes sense.
    I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.

    I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.
  • eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    @NickPalmer and @Tissue_Price seem pretty sane to me.

    I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
    Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IANAL, but googling:

    Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act:
    Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:

    A custodial prison sentence
    Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981



    An sentencing council website:
    Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.


    So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.

    But, again, IANAL.

    She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.

    She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.

    Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
    She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
    We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
    I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK cases by specimen date scaled to 100K

    image
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IANAL, but googling:

    Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act:
    Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:

    A custodial prison sentence
    Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981



    An sentencing council website:
    Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.


    So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.

    But, again, IANAL.

    She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.

    She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.

    Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
    She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
    We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
    It is entirely clear, ROMPS Act 2015 sec 2(3)(a)


    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK Local R

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  • Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited November 2021

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.

    (As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)

    His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.

    I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK Case Summary

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  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Same for me yesterday afternoon. A really sore arm this morning, but otherwise ok. Then started feeling a bit off and then later really crap and now ok except for sore arm.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK hospitals

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK deaths

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    edited November 2021
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IANAL, but googling:

    Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act:
    Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:

    A custodial prison sentence
    Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981



    An sentencing council website:
    Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.


    So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.

    But, again, IANAL.

    She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.

    She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.

    Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
    She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
    We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
    I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
    The Act is boringly specific.


    (3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered—
    (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,






    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    @NickPalmer and @Tissue_Price seem pretty sane to me.

    I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
    Re: paragraph one. You don't recall a former member for Peterborough and former PB parishioner then?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Age related data

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Age related data scaled to 100K

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  • algarkirk said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IANAL, but googling:

    Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act:
    Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:

    A custodial prison sentence
    Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981



    An sentencing council website:
    Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.


    So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.

    But, again, IANAL.

    She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.

    She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.

    Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
    She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
    We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
    I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
    The Act is boringly specific.


    (3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered—
    (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,






    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04

    This from ElectionMapsUK

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1456291974244413441?t=j5qsu4J8uwbdGPQttiy3nA&s=19
  • algarkirk said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    IANAL, but googling:

    Wikipedia on the Recall of MPs act:
    Section 1 sets out the circumstances in which the Speaker of the House of Commons would trigger the recall process, namely:

    A custodial prison sentence
    Note that MPs imprisoned with sentences greater than one year are automatically removed due to the Representation of the People Act 1981



    An sentencing council website:
    Suspended sentences are custodial sentences where the offender does not have to go to prison provided that they commit no further offences and comply with any requirements imposed. They are used only when the custodial sentence is no longer than two years. A suspended sentence is both a punishment and a deterrent.


    So my reading would be: suspended = custodial and custodial = recall, so there would be a recall.

    But, again, IANAL.

    She has not been imprisoned for greater than one year so cannot be removed under the Representation of the People Act 1981.

    She has also not been suspended from the House either for a month or more by the Standards Commissioner and there is no reason she cannot resume her work as an MP tomorrow and she will and would have clear legal grounds to stay in post.

    Legally therefore it looks like Webbe could stay an MP until the next general election even as Paterson resigns
    She has however, received a custodial sentence, so I think the recall process must apply, unless she succeeds in either overturning the conviction, or receives a non-custodial sentence, upon appeal.
    We will see, it is not entirely clear in terms of suspended sentences
    I’m reasonably sure that a suspended custodial sentence is still a custodial sentence
    The Act is boringly specific.


    (3)The reference in section 1(3) to an MP being sentenced or ordered—
    (a)includes the MP being sentenced or ordered where the sentence or order is suspended,






    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/section/2/2016-03-04

    But does that take precedence over the musings of a poster on an internet forum who cannot be bothered to read the Act?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited November 2021

    eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    @NickPalmer and @Tissue_Price seem pretty sane to me.

    I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
    Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
    I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.

    Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited November 2021

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
    Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
    They weren't as @Northern_Al points out below.

    Were it me it wouldn't have been an ahh it would have been a gasp of disbelief.
  • This has been a dreadful 24 hours in our politics and Claudia Webbe has just added to the likely negative reaction from the public to all politicians

    These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    edited November 2021
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.

    Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.

    The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.

    That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.


    Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.

    Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
    Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted

    But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
    It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
    You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
    There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
    You see, this seems to me to be a fundamental misreading of the regular commentariat on this site. Which perhaps explains why sometimes you seem to find yourself 1 against the world. And there are more issues than just Brexit. Even on Brexit there are plenty of people capable and willing to call b*llsh*t when ludicrous arguments are put forward on the issue from their "side".
    Good point. I have mentioned before that in my last 4 arguments with HYUFD I actually supported the fundamental point he was initially making in 3 of them, but I could not support the arguments he was making in support of those fundamental points. Sometimes people on your own side still say silly stuff (in your own opinion).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?

    Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
    Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.

    image
    They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    GIN1138 said:

    There cannot be a single Tory MP who now has even the remotest faith in the Prime Minister. Over the last 24 hours he has demonstrated conclusively that he is entirely untrustworthy and someone who is very happy to betray anyone at any time if it is convenient to do so.

    Well everyone has always known that about Boris...

    But...

    He's a WINNER! ;)

    Until that demonstrably changes he's going nowhere.
    The thing about him being “a winner” is all very good until he isn’t a winner. If he trashed the party then next election he won’t be a winner….. it also pre-supposes that there are not any other potential “winners” in the Tory ranks and in reality nobody knows until they know (sorry for the proto-Rumsfeld-ism…).

    It might be that enough Tory MPs look at Boris the winner, look at shiny Rishi, look at Boris and then think that they need a new fresh “winner”.

    Nobody knew Blair was a winner until he won but they could see he was fresh and connected with people. He had a “brand” like Rishi.

    The 1922 chaps need to say to Boris “look old chap, you’ve been PM/world king, you “got Brexit done”, got COP26 done, got a start on levelling up - hand over the hard work of following it through to someone more focussed and enjoy your millions”.

    Or is this too sensible…..

    PS I write this as someone who had optimism that Boris could change and grow into the role but he’s just the wrong personality type. He won, got the Tories in now he should step aside - think of it like getting Big Sam in to save your club from relegation then thank him, pay him off and get someone in who can make the next season a success and avoid the need for a big Sam rescue in the future!
    Perfect.

    Sam Allardyce for North Shropshire. Its either that or the Newcastle United job.
    You know what, Gary Neville might be tempted.

    Only commentator accurately to predict the u-turn, several hours ahead of time.
    I'm not sure political parties should be criticised for finding leaders who win elections. Surely that should be part of their raisin d'etre. Lablur seem to have forgotten that your leader can be as pure as possible with the correct views bit if they don't get elected they can't change anything
    Not G-Nev, though, please.
    His threat of strike action was fairly typical of him - a massive overestimation of the extent to which people agree with him.
    I quite liked this article about him: https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20211026/281612423609281
  • Farooq said:

    This has been a dreadful 24 hours in our politics and Claudia Webbe has just added to the likely negative reaction from the public to all politicians

    These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere

    These are a few bad eggs and not representative. Most MPs from all parties are good people.
    Remember how keen you are not to have the Conservative Party portrayed solely on HYUFD's posts. It's the same thing.
    Fair comment
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    This has been a dreadful 24 hours in our politics and Claudia Webbe has just added to the likely negative reaction from the public to all politicians

    These are very worrying times as without integrity we are nowhere

    Always the bastion of honesty and integrity that you have secured in North Wales of course.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    Interesting from YouGov

    How closely are Britons following the Owen Paterson lobbying suspension story

    Very/fairly 28%

    Not very closely 20%

    Aware but -not following 24%

    Not aware 28%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1456289791922876423?t=nC8LlurK_h5bUv9dEeBtuw&s=19

    Probably around 5% of the 28% claiming they are very/fairly closely following the Patterson saga are lying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Remarkable just how close Labour came to winning North Shropshire in 1997.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    That's an appalling comment, even from you.

    I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.

    You can't seriously think that MPS were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
    Do you have a link? I was perhaps foolish in taking PT's word for this but now I want to judge for myself.
    No, I watched it all live, sorry.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,255
    COVID numbers:

    Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?

    DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.

    We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    My name is JBriskin3

    And I'm here for the footie updates-

    5.45
    Genk V West Ham
    Brondby IF V Rangers

    8.00
    Leicester City V Spartak Moscow
    Ferencvaros V Celtic
  • Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    31m
    Case rate contractions should accelerate from here, for a while. Looks to me like actual kids infections are contracting at ~20-25%/week. That's gonna make a huge dent in overall cases, very fast.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.

    Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.

    The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.

    That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.


    Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.

    Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
    Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted

    But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
    It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
    You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
    There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
    In my considerable experience of life I’ve found that very few issues are clearly one side or another. Certainly one may start from a position but frequently, if not almost invariably one sees something in one’s ‘opponents’ argument, and one’s position moves. Slightly, slowly, but it does.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    They're not so impressed over at ConHome:


    "Well this has certainly worked out well, three line whip to resignation in less than 24 hours. Everyone involved in this fiasco looks a complete clown."

    "Who exactly thought yesterday's ploy was a good idea?"

    "Paul Goodman's comment about the party 'pinning itself down by hostile fire in a cul-de-sac of its own creation' turned out to be brutally accurate. As was former chief whip Mark Harper's comment along the lines of this being one of the most 'unedifying episodes I have ever seen in 16 years as an MP'. Well, good to know it was all worth it. *sigh*"

    "Just when you think Johnson has finally hit the bottom of barrel...It turns out he doesn't give a toss about Paterson anyway"

    "Fancy our PM making a mistake he's normally so organised!"

    "As many of the more sober minded of us warned, if you elect a clown expect a circus. This has been a disgraceful episode, triggered purely by friends of Paterson whispering in the clown's ear. Johnson remains an utterly unserious man who has just handed much needed ammunition to our opponents."

    "That's a lot of political credibility and capital wasted in making a massive u-turn only hours after a decidedly foolish three-line whip. This government is setting new lows in terms of sheer incompetence and chicanery. Whoever calculated that Leadsom's proposed new committee under Whittingdale would gain traction should probably have a good look at themselves in the mirror."

    "If this were the first screeching u-turn we had seen from this Government we could credit them for having the wisdom to admit when they were wrong. But we have seen many such u-turns, from Covid to school meals, over the past 18 months. The cumulative effect is that they make the Government appear dreadfully weak, and to lack the courage of its convictions at the first sign of criticism. Can you imagine Mrs Thatcher operating like this?"
  • A police officer who claimed he was too injured to walk has been jailed for defrauding his force out of £150,000, after an app on his mobile phone showed he had been taking 10,000 steps a day.

    PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.

    A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.

    When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.

    A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.

    Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-officer-too-injured-to-walk-took-10-000-steps-a-day-bvz2csn25
  • Oh shit.

    Labour MPs have been warned of a security risk after their home addresses and personal phone numbers were hacked as part of a major cyber attack affecting Labour Party data.

    MPs have been told to contact parliamentary security if they believe their current home address was registered on Labour’s database.

    The breach comes amid heightened concerns about MPs’ security after Sir David Amess, the Tory MP for Southend West, was stabbed to death at his constituency surgery last month.

    In an email to all Labour MPs, the director of parliamentary security, Alison Giles, said that “a significant quantity of information” had been affected by a cyber attack. The breach affected a third party which handles members’ data on Labour’s behalf.

    Giles said this included any personal data MPs have provided to the Labour Party, including their full address details in London and their constituencies, personal phone numbers and email addresses.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mps-warned-of-security-risk-as-their-home-addresses-are-hacked-8tx7zkkxk
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
    One for the lawyers:

    IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."

    I might be wrong ...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925

    Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
    Speak for yourself.

    There have been over 17,000 daily observations of me being alive. How many more do we need to realise that we're not going to see a contrary one?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?

    Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
    Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.

    image
    They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
    Pro_Rata said:

    COVID numbers:

    Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?

    DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.

    We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.

    Points been made elsewhere but that are severe limitations on children's vaccinations due to the fact that you aren't supposed to have a vaccination within 28 days of infection. Given the numbers that are believed to have contracted Covid in the last few weeks that creates quite a large barrier. (also school children are only being guaranteed one dose at the moment - probably not surprising if many are concluding that it won't give them any protection that they don't already have)
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.

    (As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)

    His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.

    I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
    I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    Farooq said:

    alex_ said:

    eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    @NickPalmer and @Tissue_Price seem pretty sane to me.

    I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
    Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
    I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.

    Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
    This ought to be a lesson to all MPs: vote with your own conscience instead of relying on someone else's instruction.
    Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
    Get rid of the whips?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    edited November 2021
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/04/uk-politics-live-tory-sleaze-owen-paterson-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-latest-updates

    "Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
    That makes sense.
    I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.

    I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.

    The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Interesting question in that article

    One of the questions many in Westminster have been asking over the past year and a bit is why the numerous Tory sleaze stories haven't had the sort of cut-through that similar rows and revelations had in the John Major years?

    And I really don't know what the answer is...
    John Major started a morality campaign - his MPs were not up to it, and it turned out he was having an affair!

    People don't like hypocrisy. And when you place today's 'misdemeamours' against the sleaze of the past it looks feeble.

    Cash for access
    Cash for honours
    Cash for questions
    Drug use
    Perjury to get out of speeding ticket
    Writing letters on behalf of paid employer which had some content related to health concerns, some lobbying


    Yep. People hoping this fiasco is the beginning of the end for Boris Johnson are going to be in for a (nother) letdown.

    Boris flying around by private plane while lecturing everyone about Climate Change is probably more damaging to him than the Patterson affair to be honest...
  • Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    That's an appalling comment, even from you.

    I watched it. There was no mocking. The "ahhhs" you heard were from MPs reacting in disbelief that JRM was exploiting the suicide in defence of Paterson. The same "ahhs" could be heard when Boris raised the suicide in answering Rayner's question at PMQs. MPs don't like emotional blackmail.

    You can't seriously think that MPs were mocking someone's death. They weren't.
    Yes I do seriously think that people were mocking it. The fact they did the same mocking "ahhs" twice makes it worse not better.

    If you don't like "emotional blackmail" then sit in stony silence through that bit and make the point with cold logic afterwards - not sarcastic mocking noises when someone's death is brought up!
  • Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
    Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Pro_Rata said:

    COVID numbers:

    Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?

    DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.

    We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.

    The state of play....

    image
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, I have just been asked to do a talk to some bankers later this month on, wait for it, the importance of integrity and what happens when you don't have it.

    Perhaps I could recycle it for MPs.

    The hardest thing, I find, about doing these talks is how much to charge.

    That and choosing which examples to use. One is spoilt for choice.


    Given 2 MPs with lots of integrity, Jo Cox and David Amess, have recently been murdered for doing their job rather a cynical post from you.

    Believe it or not there are even a few bankers with integrity too
    Um what you've posted has nothing to do with what @Cyclefree posted

    But then again given the sewers you seem to inhabit its not difficult to see how you can read something very different from what was actually posted.
    It was a typical high moralising Cyclefree post basically castigating MPs in their entirety, that was obvious
    You are a top performer when on form, but you need a couple of matches on the subs bench to rest and get back on your game. You are missing sitters and tapping in own goals.
    There are no goals to be made on PB, 90% of posters are pretty firm in their views on most issues. Most are Tory or anti Tory, pro Brexit or anti Brexit, you make comments you don't ever win
    In my considerable experience of life I’ve found that very few issues are clearly one side or another. Certainly one may start from a position but frequently, if not almost invariably one sees something in one’s ‘opponents’ argument, and one’s position moves. Slightly, slowly, but it does.
    Quite. There are some issues where people will have very strong and fixed views because they have given them a lot of thought and been refined through many arguments/discussions. Others they may have no more than an instinctive view which could end up on a complete 180 once subjected to well argued and/or expert opposition.
  • Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
    Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
    Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,925
    MaxPB said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?

    Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
    Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.

    image
    They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
    I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.

    The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    edited November 2021
    IanB2 said:

    They're not so impressed over at ConHome:


    "Well this has certainly worked out well, three line whip to resignation in less than 24 hours. Everyone involved in this fiasco looks a complete clown."

    "Who exactly thought yesterday's ploy was a good idea?"

    "Paul Goodman's comment about the party 'pinning itself down by hostile fire in a cul-de-sac of its own creation' turned out to be brutally accurate. As was former chief whip Mark Harper's comment along the lines of this being one of the most 'unedifying episodes I have ever seen in 16 years as an MP'. Well, good to know it was all worth it. *sigh*"

    "Just when you think Johnson has finally hit the bottom of barrel...It turns out he doesn't give a toss about Paterson anyway"

    "Fancy our PM making a mistake he's normally so organised!"

    "As many of the more sober minded of us warned, if you elect a clown expect a circus. This has been a disgraceful episode, triggered purely by friends of Paterson whispering in the clown's ear. Johnson remains an utterly unserious man who has just handed much needed ammunition to our opponents."

    "That's a lot of political credibility and capital wasted in making a massive u-turn only hours after a decidedly foolish three-line whip. This government is setting new lows in terms of sheer incompetence and chicanery. Whoever calculated that Leadsom's proposed new committee under Whittingdale would gain traction should probably have a good look at themselves in the mirror."

    "If this were the first screeching u-turn we had seen from this Government we could credit them for having the wisdom to admit when they were wrong. But we have seen many such u-turns, from Covid to school meals, over the past 18 months. The cumulative effect is that they make the Government appear dreadfully weak, and to lack the courage of its convictions at the first sign of criticism. Can you imagine Mrs Thatcher operating like this?"

    I'm beginning to wonder if Johnson will lose the South but keep the Midlands and Red Wall, as traditional Tories sit on their hands on mass in 2023/4.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
    No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.

    In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Farooq said:

    alex_ said:

    eek said:

    Suggestion: Double MPs salaries and forbid them taking paid employment, or taking benefits in kind, whilst they are serving MPs.

    - The Goode Olde style of corruption was that *after* an MP stepped down, they would get a long, long list of non-executive directorships, share options etc etc.
    - Another issue is that you ensure that the MPs will become yet more isolated from reality.
    The reality of paid employment for the 99% is not the same experience as getting paid £500 ph to get your ex school chums to give your company a multi million pound contract.
    Quite.

    Personal anecdote alert.

    A close relative has reached the stage with the company he started himself, from scratch, literally working with his hands, that he can step back a bit from the day to day. PhD in the sciences, a bunch of publications. A career in amateur sport that reached international levels at one point....

    In times not very past, he would have been shoved into the local council by now and would be in parliament within a few years He was offered, but resisted. A political career is not merely not of interest, but actively to be avoided.
    As I've pointed out multiple times here no-one sane goes into politics nowadays. Ignoring the stench coming from the Tory party over the past 48 hours, social media makes it an utterly appalling idea.

    Heck the only poster on here who seems to want a political career is HYUFD and that probably tells you everything.

    As I've posted before I suspect a lot of people in his position (and mine) can do a lot more good outside of politics rather than inside it...
    @NickPalmer and @Tissue_Price seem pretty sane to me.

    I'd have a go myself if I ever thought I'd stand a chance of getting elected (and I am entriely sane) - but at my age the opportunity has long gone.
    Agreed, well done Aaron Bell and Nick's posting here has raised my impression of MPs, I hope he is more representative of the typical backbencher MP than the ones who get the most publicity.
    I think a lot of MPs get a very unfairly bad rep due to a basic misunderstanding of how Parliament works, and particularly that they simply do not realistically have free rein to vote however they want on every issue and sustain any sort of a career. See also for example the nonsense on social media about the Labour MPs who didn't vote yesterday.

    Whilst it is fair that Aaron got some credit yesterday, MPs (unless they are comfortable being portrayed as mavericks/serial rebels) really have to pick and choose carefully when they want to stand out. I can imagine that there are many Tory MPs who are hugely uncomfortable about what they were asked to do yesterday - but weren't prepared on this issue to stand out. Which is why many are even more angry at the Government U-turn.
    This ought to be a lesson to all MPs: vote with your own conscience instead of relying on someone else's instruction.
    Better to be damned for doing what you think is right than for what you knew to be wrong.
    Not really. A politician who ALWAYS votes with their conscience, especially when heavy whipping is in place, is not one who is likely to go far (if they have aspirations to Govt). There is a reason why there are issues in Parliament which are specifically designated "matters of conscience"!

    I would also add that whilst the rebels yesterday may have been voting with their conscience, i suspect that there may also have been calculations based on the likely response in their own constituencies as well...
  • Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
    Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
    Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
    Taxation is a form of restriction.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/04/uk-politics-live-tory-sleaze-owen-paterson-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-latest-updates

    "Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
    That makes sense.
    I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.

    I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.

    The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
    Nigel is giving his opinion having heard it. Now no doubt Nigel and the Guardian are capable of bias (particularly the Guardian), but don't you think it is possible that they have done a reasonable job and Nigel has spotted that is the case. Did you listen to the debate and read the Guardian article to know that Nigel is wrong?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.

    (As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)

    His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.

    I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
    I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
    It's not ungallant. Sometimes our friends can help us see our own best interests better than we can.

    He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Interesting from YouGov

    How closely are Britons following the Owen Paterson lobbying suspension story

    Very/fairly 28%

    Not very closely 20%

    Aware but -not following 24%

    Not aware 28%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1456289791922876423?t=nC8LlurK_h5bUv9dEeBtuw&s=19

    I suspect that says more about the respondents to YouGov polls than it does about the public's awareness of this mayfly scandal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    I think it was actually a response to Mr Johnson's speech which was itself - not the suicide - seen as inappropriate. The Graun feed discusses this issue. See its entry for 1506 today:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/04/uk-politics-live-tory-sleaze-owen-paterson-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-latest-updates

    "Oppositon MPs may be surprised by the claim in Owen Paterson’s statement that some of them mocked his wife’s death by suicide last year. (See 2.45pm.) He may have been referring to a moment during PMQs yesterday. In his sketch (paywall) for The Times (paywall), Quentin Letts said: “At PMQs earlier, Boris Johnson had mentioned Rose Paterson’s suicide. Up went several aw-diddums “ahhs” from the Labour side.” My colleague John Crace, the Guardian’s sketchwriter, was also in the gallery and he tells me he did not see anything that could be described as MPs mocking Rose’s death. My impression was that when Johnson mentioned Rose’s suicide, that did prompt a feint reaction from some MPs, but that was more because they felt Johnson was using Rose’s death as cover because he was finding it hard to justify the vote exempting Paterson from the standards committee recommendations. But I was listening to the debate on TV, not watching from the gallery, so I may have missed aspects of the reaction."
    That makes sense.
    I heard that part of the debate, and the Guardian account seems far more accurate than that of Letts.

    I suppose it’s possible he’s genuinely persuaded himself that’s the case, but objectively it seems nonsense.

    The Guardian account seems far more accurate than= LOL
    Nigel is giving his opinion having heard it. Now no doubt Nigel and the Guardian are capable of bias (particularly the Guardian), but don't you think it is possible that they have done a reasonable job and Nigel has spotted that is the case. Did you listen to the debate and read the Guardian article to know that Nigel is wrong?
    Especially as the Guardian made a point of inquiring into the matter rather than simply quoting X or Y.
  • Farooq said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.

    Its not that money is more important than life, it is that life is more important than death. Is it worth 67 million people not living their life to the full in order to prevent 100 deaths per day? Especially if those 100 deaths are either people who refused the vaccine, or are so vulnerable that any illness could finish them off? For me, absolutely not.
    Well, some of us.
    99.9999% of us.

    Everyone dies eventually.
    Why bother with healthcare at all? It's very expensive, and we all die eventually.
    Healthcare is about treating the sick, not restricting the healthy.
    Taxation is a form of restriction.
    And I'm against all unnecessary taxation, so not sure what point you're trying to make.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?

    Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
    Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.

    image
    They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
    I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.

    The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
    Lulled into a false sense of security (as they were last year) by assuming that what is alleged "going wrong" in the UK is a consequence of UK Government incompetence and not just the reality that the UK is further along the curve (eg. because early vaccinations meant waning happened earlier). And some of the EU may actually be more exposed BECAUSE they have been maintaining restrictions whereas the UK has got a lot of it out of the way in the Summer...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.

    (As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)

    His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.

    I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
    I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
    It's not ungallant. Sometimes our friends can help us see our own best interests better than we can.

    He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
    There are friends and there are professional associates. Sometimes the latter really are friends, sometimes………
  • alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Negligible? Can't you read the "deaths" graph through your blue-tinted spectacles?

    Germany **** the bed today due to rising deaths, look at the graph, and you are claiming we've beaten Covid.
    Germany is likely to have a much more difficult winter than us, with a lower vaccination rate, slow uptake of boosters, and lower levels of natural immunity.

    image
    They won't have a difficult winter, they'll end up having a lockdown and then the morons over here will scream and shout that we need one too.
    I'm slightly surprised how poorly the US is doing in the booster stakes. It's available to anyone who's more than six months since their second dose - which is a lot of people eligible.

    The Europeans should really start encouraging people to get boosters - it's not like they have any shortage of vaccines (almost 200 million doses in reserve). I think they've been lulled into a false sense of security by low current case rates. And if there's one thing we know about Covid, it's that it bites people in the arse who aren't proactive.
    Lulled into a false sense of security (as they were last year) by assuming that what is alleged "going wrong" in the UK is a consequence of UK Government incompetence and not just the reality that the UK is further along the curve (eg. because early vaccinations meant waning happened earlier). And some of the EU may actually be more exposed BECAUSE they have been maintaining restrictions whereas the UK has got a lot of it out of the way in the Summer...
    The thing is that when lockdown was lifted it was explicitly said that there would be an exit wave of cases and its better to get it done with now in the summer than in the winter.

    And some people still view higher cases in unrestricted UK versus restricted Europe as a failure rather than a success. 🤦‍♂️

    The UK is going to have an unrestricted winter with herd immunity from vaccines, boosters and natural immunity. The European nations that foolishly kept restrictions in the summer aren't going to be able to lift them in the winter and may have to ratchet them even further instead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
    Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
    That did not happen, IMO.

    As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.

    But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
  • IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Is he a chump or do you stop to think for one second that he actually genuinely thinks that Paterson was in the right and an injustice has been done?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,491
    Pro_Rata said:

    COVID numbers:

    Where is the big surge in first vaccinations from the schools vaccination program. Not in the figures yet or not as big as billed?

    DD2 had hers on Tuesday, whole school (of those that said yes) done in a day, and there was talk of hundreds if not thousands of secondaries going this week. Plus walk ina open to the over 12s.

    We should be seeing higher than 40k by now surely.

    In England, 0.8% or 12-15 year olds are being given first jab a day, (slightly less at weekends) about 5% a week, and we are on 25.3% at the moment. Maybe that rate will pick up a bit now half term is over, but I would think another 5 weeks or so at this rate or slightly feaster, taking us to 50-60% i.e. in line with the 16-17 year olds. that will be around 1.3 million more jabs, 2% is of population.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=England

    Sad that its taken this long, but Good that its happening, and good that most/all who what it will get it before the coldest/darkest part of the year. however as by some estimates 3/4 of this age group have all ready had COVID, it wont have the impact one might imagine 1.3 million first jabs having.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Incredible wig though! :D
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Is he a chump or do you stop to think for one second that he actually genuinely thinks that Paterson was in the right and an injustice has been done?
    The two are not mutially exclusive, especially in view of the information published to date, and SKS pointing out that the process does involve an integral appeal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
    No, I must not, I must not, I must not ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited November 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Is he a chump or do you stop to think for one second that he actually genuinely thinks that Paterson was in the right and an injustice has been done?
    He’s a chump. Either way.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited November 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Appallingly timid interviewing on the PM programme too, which allowed him to get away with untruth after untruth.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
    No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.

    In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
    Loonies is the same north and south of the border.

    I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.

    But the person (he/she) said loonie not loon
  • Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
    Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
    That did not happen, IMO.

    As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.

    But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
    A gasp is one thing, mocking "ahhs" are inexcusable. Especially when they're done not once, but twice on the same day.

    If you have nothing nice to say when someone's death is mentioned then you don't say anything at all. Sit in silence at that point then speak when its your turn and make your point. Clearly sarcastic mocking "ahhs" is offensive and belittling her death.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
    One for the lawyers:

    IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."

    I might be wrong ...
    That’s correct.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    A police officer who claimed he was too injured to walk has been jailed for defrauding his force out of £150,000, after an app on his mobile phone showed he had been taking 10,000 steps a day.

    PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.

    A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.

    When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.

    A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.

    Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-officer-too-injured-to-walk-took-10-000-steps-a-day-bvz2csn25

    It sounds like he's been caught good and proper.

    However, I'd like to add one thing.

    Whilst at Uni (gulp!) nearly 30 years ago, I had a health issue that meant I found it hard to walk at times. I was in a lot of pain. This got me a room in Halls for my second year, and in the Halls nearest uni.

    Yet occasionally during that second year, I would walk seven or so miles along the Regents Canal to Paddington, and get the tube back. People would ask how I could do that if the pain was so bad. The answer was simple; the pain often reduced, and I liked to fight it. Because it was nerve damage, walking itself didn't seem to make the pain worse, and walking helped my mood immeasurably.

    There was no way I could have done anything that involved me regularly and reliably walking, because I could never know when the pain would strike. That meant I could have had no job that relied on my walking alot - even if I occasionally could.

    Though this isn't the case here ("lift a kettle"), I'm always a little concerned when people accuse others of not being disabled. Often people are lying, but sometimes pain can be intermittent, and people can be fighting it. But the pain can still be something that is debilitating.

    Pain is a weird thing.
  • kinabalu said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
    No, I must not, I must not, I must not ...
    We live with death happening on a daily basis kinabalu. On a daily basis 99.999% of people are not dying and 99.9999% of people are not dying from Covid (0.0009% are dying from other causes).

    If you think you can eliminate death then that's just silly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
    No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.

    In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
    Loonies is the same north and south of the border.

    I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.

    But the person (he/she) said loonie not loon
    I was trying for the treble pun....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Fabricant going on the radio to defend Paterson and everything the Tories did yesterday, even now. What a chump!

    Appallingly timid interviewing on the PM programme, too, which allowed him to get away untruth after untruth.
    He's not the sort of man that knows facts.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    DougSeal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    No it isn't, and certainly not where backwards in time causation is required to make it work.
    One for the lawyers:

    IANAL, but isn't mitigation often (but not solely) used at sentencing? In the form of "In consequence she has lost her job and her home, and has therefore already been punished?" In other words, "go easy on her."

    I might be wrong ...
    That’s correct.
    And given the actual nature and seriousness of the crime, alongside the defendants inability to see what crime had been committed it's possible that the actual sentence should have been 90 days rather than 30 days and that the suicide had mitigated the final sentence.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    kinabalu said:

    The Covid death rate in parts of Europe is now higher than the peak here before the vaccines.

    image

    The UK is still "beating" its Western European peers on deaths though.

    coronavirus-data-explorer
    The UK is also beating its Western European peers on having lifted all restrictions, which is more important than the negligible number of deaths that are occurring at the moment.
    Hardly negligible - around 10% of all deaths in the UK are currently from covid. But I suppose that for some people money is more important than life.
    People die. 10% of all deaths is something that we can live with.
    No, I must not, I must not, I must not ...
    I've just been reading asbout possible unit trusts, and the difference that a percentage point extra in annual charge makes over time. Annd it's not 1%, no sirree. No self-respecting Tory would accept an extra 1% annually on top of 9% without good reason (i.e. additiona yield). As presimably PT is not including yield in the form of babies (unlikely in the main mortality age groiups), then he's happy to see people have a much reduced life expectancy. Exponential growoth works in both directions, after all.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254

    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
    No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.

    In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
    Loonies is the same north and south of the border.

    I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.

    But the person (he/she) said loonie not loon
    I was trying for the treble pun....
    300 points to you then!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    Why the f*** did they not look at the allegations and defence before starting to defend him.

    The paperwork was available online and made it 100% clear why this was the wrong case to do anything with.

    Heck I said as much yesterday, no character witness can explain multiple letters (so not a single accidental mistake) where you misrepresent the reason you are writing the letter and fail to mention you are being paid to do so.
    Some of them fell for the bullshit perpetuated on here about the Commissioner and the process.

    Something which was rebutted extensively.
    I though the Standards Committee dealt with this very well.
    They restrained themselves to commenting that they had found the personal allegations against the Commissioner unsubstantiated.

    I’ve no idea who might be the MPs referred to in Paterson’s resignation letter who ‘mocked’ his dead wife, despite following the story quite closely.
    The video/audio of it is available online from the debate yesterday. When JRM mentioned that the death of his wife there was a chorus of very nasty mocking "ahhhs" coming from the Opposition benches.

    That really was unpleasant. There has always been Punch & Judy politics in Westminster but to mock someone's death like that is just ugly. I have no idea who did it but if I was to guess it would be the usual suspects who backed Corbyn.
    Wasn't JRM trying to use the suicide as a mitigating factor rather than a statement of absolute fact. Which was rather rich, given that the suicide was a direct result of Owen being investigated..
    Which is a point that can legitimately be made, without being nasty and mocking the death.
    That did not happen, IMO.

    As you know, I’ve refrained from making much comment over this, and have hesitated to judge Paterson himself on this particular aspect.

    But I remember gasping with anger myself when Johnson used it as part of his argument in the Commons. The manner in which he did was utterly disingenuous to anyone who has actually read the Standards Committee report.
    You can bet that Johnson almost certainly hadn't.
  • kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get (and granted I was at the dentist between 9 and 10 this morning) is what changed that meant Boris and Co had no choice but to switch from protecting Owen to getting shot of him by close of play today?

    From what I heard Tory MPs had sympathy for Paterson because of his wife’s suicide.

    Overnight they finally read the allegations and his defence (sic) and realised he was guilty as sin.

    So there had to be another vote to censure him and nobody wanted to defend that.
    The "my wife committed suicide" angle was appalling. Yes its a persona tragedy. But it is no defence against corruption. Or was he suggesting that he was so grief-stricken by her suicide that he accidentally made half a mil from lobbying? If so why is he saying he would do it all again?

    In ordinary times I would ask how stupid the Tory party think people are. Sadly we know that they know quite a lot of people are pretty stupid...
    It really isn't appalling. AIUI, the family believes the stress of the investigation - and her fears she would lose positions she loves, including one at the ?jockey club?, led her to do it. So it is perfectly acceptable to mention it.

    It's amazing how quickly all the pleas for a kinder, more compassionate kind of politics after Amess's murder have been forgotten. His wife took her own life: he's perfectly right to mention it.
    Had he not behaved abysmally, his wife would not have been under the fear of losing position.
    Hold on. "Behaved abysmally" ? Get a grip. He did wrong. He broke the rules over lobbying. He probably should not be an MP (and will not be now). But no-one was hurt, no-one was threatened. Compare and contrast with (say) Webbe.

    His wife committed suicide. It doesn't excuse what he did, but he darned well deserves compassion over it. And he ain't getting much of it on here.
    I suggest you read my post on the previous thread at 10:41 am. It is possible to have very great sympathy for him because of his personal loss while criticising his behaviour as an MP.

    Personal tragedy does not get you off the hook for your wrongdoings. If it did, our prisons would largely be empty since most of the people who end up in prison have suffered any number of personal tragedies and difficulties before they got there.
    I totally agree. However (rightly or wrongly), it's often used in court as mitigation, is it not?

    But that wasn't my main point.
    I thought Paterson's work after his wife's death on suicide was admirable. See the interview on Woman's Hour I linked to earlier. He hoped that raising awareness would ensure that some good would come out of it.

    (As you may know my family suffered a suicide last year so I know a very little of what he must have gone through. The interview he gave was very moving.)

    His behaviour in recent days has not been admirable at all. He has been stupid. If he'd accepted the sanction, he'd still be an MP. As it is he has lost his job, made himself look ridiculous and venal and undone the good he tried to achieve with his work on suicide awareness and prevention.

    I think it is best he is not an MP. But on a human level I imagine he is under a lot of stress right now - not least because he will also feel betrayed by the PM. I hope for his sake that his family and true friends rally round him now. He is also a father and grandfather.
    I hope his friends are looking after him. Is it ungallant to note that those of his friends who tried to get him off have made his downfall even worse?
    It's not ungallant. Sometimes our friends can help us see our own best interests better than we can.

    He may feel betrayed and angry, but ultimately there is a connection between all his professional woes, and it's himself.
    I'm reminded of the story that it was Denis who persuaded Maggie that it was time to go on that fateful day in 1990.

    Whenever the time comes, will Carrie be able to do the same? Will Boris listen?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Wor Lass back home after receiving her Booster. After two doses of Pfizer, this time she received Moderna.

    Let's see what the side effects are like...

    My booster is tomorrow. It'll be Pfizer, after two AZ. My colleague (same mix) feels mostly ok so far from his this morning.
    Received text message from my GP surgery at 23.55 last night. This morning booked and received booster jab at 12.30 this afternoon- 3 weeks short of the 6 months period from 2nd injection.
    The Scots seem to be using a 24 week (6 lunar month) rather than 6 calendar month margin - not complaining though, am booked for mine soon.
    Are you implying that the Scottish medical establishment are a bunch of.... loonies?
    No, just interested in the definition of 'six months' being used! As I say, I'm not complaining - it was "come and get yourt flu jab and your covid boost if applicable" and it was 24 weeks + 1 day since the second covid jab.

    In any case, loon means something quite different in (part of) Scotland and loonie would be the first diminutive (or little wee bit loonockie if you want the full Scots quintuple diminutive).
    Loonies is the same north and south of the border.

    I think you're going for the loon = younger person in Scotland definition.

    But the person (he/she) said loonie not loon
    You're missing the point. Loonie means primarily what I say it means in the relevant parts of Scotland - there is however some importation of the alternative meaning.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    A police officer who claimed he was too injured to walk has been jailed for defrauding his force out of £150,000, after an app on his mobile phone showed he had been taking 10,000 steps a day.

    PC Matthew Littlefair, 36, claimed full pay and other benefits for two years while “putting on an act” that he was so badly hurt he “couldn’t even lift a kettle” after a minor car crash.

    A covert surveillance operation was launched after colleagues became suspicious and he was spotted playing football with his children, walking his dog, going jogging and riding bicycles.

    When investigators examined his phone they found he had repeatedly been recorded taking 10,000 steps a day — the equivalent of five miles — while claiming he was unable to work.

    A judge condemned Littlefair for his “arrogance” and said his crime would damage public confidence in the police.

    Jailing Littlefair for two years and three months, Judge Robert Pawson said the case had come “during one of the worst years in recent policing history”, referring to the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by the Metropolitan Police officer Wayne Couzens


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-officer-too-injured-to-walk-took-10-000-steps-a-day-bvz2csn25

    It sounds like he's been caught good and proper.

    However, I'd like to add one thing.

    Whilst at Uni (gulp!) nearly 30 years ago, I had a health issue that meant I found it hard to walk at times. I was in a lot of pain. This got me a room in Halls for my second year, and in the Halls nearest uni.

    Yet occasionally during that second year, I would walk seven or so miles along the Regents Canal to Paddington, and get the tube back. People would ask how I could do that if the pain was so bad. The answer was simple; the pain often reduced, and I liked to fight it. Because it was nerve damage, walking itself didn't seem to make the pain worse, and walking helped my mood immeasurably.

    There was no way I could have done anything that involved me regularly and reliably walking, because I could never know when the pain would strike. That meant I could have had no job that relied on my walking alot - even if I occasionally could.

    Though this isn't the case here ("lift a kettle"), I'm always a little concerned when people accuse others of not being disabled. Often people are lying, but sometimes pain can be intermittent, and people can be fighting it. But the pain can still be something that is debilitating.

    Pain is a weird thing.
    I’ve dealt with a few capability dismissal cases with very similar facts to that - often involving employers getting surveillance done at great expense
This discussion has been closed.