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CON MP and PBer, Aaron Bell, doesn’t back Bojo on Patterson – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    IanB2 said:

    mickydroy said:

    Thinking back to when I briefly claimed JSA (as UC was then called), I remember the ferocious warnings given to claimants who failed to declare income in order to reduce the effective tax rate of 80-90%. People who "forgot" to mention £100 of earnings would be subject to criminals sanctions, with very little sympathy from anyone.

    Conservatives have now voted to protect a colleague who received exactly 1000 times that from private companies and was then found by an all-party committee to have broken the rules on lobbying.

    Having a large majority and a polling lead is encouraging the Government to think it can get away with anything. I suspect that will turn out not to be true for much longer.

    I think they will get away with it at the next election anyway, but when the Torys do fall from favour, it will be hard and fast, and wont be pretty, and one even with all their friends in high places, they may never recover for years, the clock is ticking
    And how far will the Conservatives have to go to find a clean pair of hands?

    Has anyone asked Rishi how he'd have voted had he been in Westminster today?
    If he was paired then his hands are dirty.
    And it he wasn't paired, then his position in the Cabinet is untenable.

    Which is why it would be of public interest to know his view on the matter.

    (But the wider point is that, if BoJo comes to be seen as unfit to rule, anyone who has served under him is compromised as well.)
    His view on this, and other matters, is whatever they need to be at any given moment I suspect.
  • Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    IanB2 said:

    mickydroy said:

    Thinking back to when I briefly claimed JSA (as UC was then called), I remember the ferocious warnings given to claimants who failed to declare income in order to reduce the effective tax rate of 80-90%. People who "forgot" to mention £100 of earnings would be subject to criminals sanctions, with very little sympathy from anyone.

    Conservatives have now voted to protect a colleague who received exactly 1000 times that from private companies and was then found by an all-party committee to have broken the rules on lobbying.

    Having a large majority and a polling lead is encouraging the Government to think it can get away with anything. I suspect that will turn out not to be true for much longer.

    I think they will get away with it at the next election anyway, but when the Torys do fall from favour, it will be hard and fast, and wont be pretty, and one even with all their friends in high places, they may never recover for years, the clock is ticking
    And how far will the Conservatives have to go to find a clean pair of hands?

    Has anyone asked Rishi how he'd have voted had he been in Westminster today?
    If he was paired then his hands are dirty.
    And it he wasn't paired, then his position in the Cabinet is untenable.

    Which is why it would be of public interest to know his view on the matter.

    (But the wider point is that, if BoJo comes to be seen as unfit to rule, anyone who has served under him is compromised as well.)
    Always the problem for ambitious deputies.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871
    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    This is the hubris of perceived supremacy - of more than a decade in power, endless opinion poll leads and an election won with a majority of 80.

    They believe they will never lose - people will always vote Conservative over Labour and the others - and that empowers them to think, do and act as they see fit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    Things get politicised, but that doesn't mean each side is equally at fault. Boris chose this fight, he and his supporters are the catalysing factor in this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Hello all Tory MPs: what exactly is your explanation for a colleague taking £100,000 and then lobbying a government agency and ministers on behalf of that company that is totally above board and complies with “natural justice”?
    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1455994060020277259
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    edited November 2021
    Entirely off topic, but knowing we have experts here on nearly everything I was wondering if we had anyone with a lot of knowledge on Ash Dieback.

    Walking the dog in the Surrey Hills (they start at the end of my road) and also in some hills near Petworth I noticed that all the Ash were either dead or nearly dead. No survivors at all. But I also noticed they were all young. I then looked up how to approximately age them by girth and by the looks of it nothing was older than the storm of 1987.

    I have about a dozen Ash in my garden and a number of them are old in terms of the life span of the Ash. One has a girth of just under 4 metres making it about 300 years old which is very mature for an Ash. Many of the others are in the 100 to 200 year range. Up till now none have shown any signs of Ash dieback although I am getting worried about one that is probably only a few decades old.

    Does anyone know why mine are more resilient considering it is rampant nearby and has age got anything to do with it? Should I be worried. I have already lost a very large old one quite a few years ago (pre Ash dieback, just fell over, needed acrows to hold it up so it could be chopped up it was so big, nearly wiped out several fruit trees) and I don't want to lose anymore as they are huge and stunning.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871
    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    edited November 2021
    How the hell can Boris manage to go from a decent appearance at COP to a complete own goal for the opposition. For the first time ever this is actually real sleaze and it's self inflicted. Insane.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Hello all Tory MPs: what exactly is your explanation for a colleague taking £100,000 and then lobbying a government agency and ministers on behalf of that company that is totally above board and complies with “natural justice”?
    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1455994060020277259

    The Code of the Woosters.
    "Never let a pal down."
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799
    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Scott_xP said:

    What has Paterson said in his defence?

    Tonight I asked Owen Paterson why he thinks two companies pay him over £100k a year, as he says he’d do it all again

    http://news.sky.com/story/owen-paterson-ex-minister-defends-lobbying-for-two-firms-after-suspension-from-parliament-halted-12459119

    Transcript:
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455980402242428932/photo/1
    I suppose that the £347 million pound contract (awarded without tender) is a pretty good return on the £500 000 paid to Owen Paterson*.

    He is one of the best MPs that money can buy.

    *Strangely, yet conveniently, the Minister responsible couldn't help with the standards enquiry as he had "lost" his phone.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Omnium said:

    How the hell can Boris manage to go from a decent appearance at COP to a complete own goal for the opposition. For the first time ever this is actually real sleaze and it's self inflicted. Insane.

    NEW: In Glasgow we were told Boris Johnson was flying back to London after #COP26 due to "significant time constraints". Now we know what these were... Scoop from our @NickSommerlad

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-races-back-cop-25371485#ICID=ios_TMNewsApp_AppShare_Click_TWshare
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    You have a point but, once again, the Tories are taking the hit.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP loses her job over abstaining on the Owen Paterson vote. https://twitter.com/AJRichardsonMP/status/1455977719813058561

    There's a nasty brutal element to the Johnson regime. Absolute loyalty or you swim with the fishes. Eddie Mair had it right when he called Johnson a nasty piece of work.
    "“Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him.” - Max Hastings
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    Why should they if they think to vote "aye" would bring Paiament into disrepute?

    In this instance Conservatives politicised a cross party process that was introduced by the Conservatives in 1995.

    You really can't shoulder the blame onto anyone else when one particular party has been so outrageously partisan in order to protect one of their own.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    Omnium said:

    How the hell can Boris manage to go from a decent appearance at COP to a complete own goal for the opposition. For the first time ever this is actually real sleaze and it's self inflicted. Insane.

    Well not helped by chartering an airliner to get home from Glasgow. Even if you don't believe in what you are doing at COP at least give the appearance of doing so by returning by train. Maybe the plan was to keep that out of the news by doing something even more insane.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,132
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    What has Paterson said in his defence?

    Tonight I asked Owen Paterson why he thinks two companies pay him over £100k a year, as he says he’d do it all again

    http://news.sky.com/story/owen-paterson-ex-minister-defends-lobbying-for-two-firms-after-suspension-from-parliament-halted-12459119

    Transcript:
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455980402242428932/photo/1
    I suppose that the £347 million pound contract (awarded without tender) is a pretty good return on the £500 000 paid to Owen Paterson*.

    He is one of the best MPs that money can buy.

    *Strangely, yet conveniently, the Minister responsible couldn't help with the standards enquiry as he had "lost" his phone.
    Paterson 2024: With me, you'll get your money's worth

    He might be upset at that characterisation, though I might suggest the first step in people forgiving you for poor behaviour is to acknowledge it.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    I assume you still haven't read the full report. I'm not having a go at you but, seriously, if you read it all I think you'd change your view. The concerns you raise are all covered in the report, and Paterson had ample opportunities to make his case built in to the process. He took advantage of this, but neither the Commissioner nor the MPs and lay members on the Committee were persuaded by his 'defence'. His complaints about the process, and the response to them, are covered in the report. He really hasn't got a leg to stand on, and if you read it, as a bright enough person, I think you'd agree.

    If the system needs reforming, the HoC can do that. But not post hoc following a judgement made under the current system.
  • Omnium said:

    How the hell can Boris manage to go from a decent appearance at COP to a complete own goal for the opposition. For the first time ever this is actually real sleaze and it's self inflicted. Insane.

    Hardly the first time. Its been open corruption for yonks now. A mere coincidence that peerages, PPE contracts and planning agreements are doled out to Tory donors. Obviously.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    kjh said:

    Omnium said:

    How the hell can Boris manage to go from a decent appearance at COP to a complete own goal for the opposition. For the first time ever this is actually real sleaze and it's self inflicted. Insane.

    Well not helped by chartering an airliner to get home from Glasgow. Even if you don't believe in what you are doing at COP at least give the appearance of doing so by returning by train. Maybe the plan was to keep that out of the news by doing something even more insane.
    Stupid of course, but that's not important. I'm happy that the PM should travel the fastest way where that's needed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Johnson can never and will never do anything but facilitate sleaze on his benches.

    He is the King Rat in the sewer in terms of sleaze. Sexual, financial, you name it.

    He cannot possibly EVER do anything but excuse and support the offenders, otherwise the bucket of his own sh1t, forever hanging by a thread over his own head, comes down.

    A quite colourfully put and accurate analysis. Thank you
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    Why should they if they think to vote "aye" would bring Paiament into disrepute?

    In this instance Conservatives politicised a cross party process that was introduced by the Conservatives in 1995.

    You really can't shoulder the blame onto anyone else when one particular party has been so outrageously partisan in order to protect one of their own.
    According to Sam Coates earlier today even Labour MPs were telling him that they agreed that the system was flawed and should be reformed, but they didn't want to vote so because of Paterson. If they think the system was flawed then they should have voted with their conscience and not politicised it.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455840925482160131
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    They’ve been in too long.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Andy_JS said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2h
    I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.

    True, except no-one will remember this whole saga in a few days' time.
    That's where I am

    I might have been exercised by this 5 or 10 years ago, maybe, maybe baby, but now? In the middle of a global plague and after ALL THAT SHIT??

    It's Tories gonna Tory, to me. Regrettable but forgettable

    That's probably a moral failing in me, but I wonder if I am more like the average punter in this narrow respect. Yawn
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
    I think both Le Pen and Bertrand are worth backing at current odds, as both push Macron closely, and could win with a swing in the campaign.

    It's hard to see value in the current odds on Macron.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Jonathan said:

    They’ve been in too long.

    Is there any other possible vote though? Realistically I think not. Quite mad.
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    Why should they if they think to vote "aye" would bring Paiament into disrepute?

    In this instance Conservatives politicised a cross party process that was introduced by the Conservatives in 1995.

    You really can't shoulder the blame onto anyone else when one particular party has been so outrageously partisan in order to protect one of their own.
    According to Sam Coates earlier today even Labour MPs were telling him that they agreed that the system was flawed and should be reformed, but they didn't want to vote so because of Paterson. If they think the system was flawed then they should have voted with their conscience and not politicised it.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455840925482160131
    Let's be honest: you never gave a flying fig about the parliamentary-standards process until this came up and it all started looking terrible for friend Boris.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    It was Gary Ballance who said the P-Word

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59155576

    "Ex-England international Gary Ballance has said he "regrets" using a racial slur against his former Yorkshire team-mate Azeem Rafiq.

    In a lengthy and emotional statement, Ballance said he was responsible for some of the offensive terms Rafiq was subjected to during his time at Headingley.

    "It has been reported that I used a racial slur and, as I told the independent enquiry, I accept that I did so and I regret doing so," said Ballance, 31.

    "To be clear - I deeply regret some of the language I used in my younger years.""
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2h
    I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.

    True, except no-one will remember this whole saga in a few days' time.
    That's where I am

    I might have been exercised by this 5 or 10 years ago, maybe, maybe baby, but now? In the middle of a global plague and after ALL THAT SHIT??

    It's Tories gonna Tory, to me. Regrettable but forgettable

    That's probably a moral failing in me, but I wonder if I am more like the average punter in this narrow respect. Yawn
    It's drip, drip, drip though. Eventually the bucket is full.
    That may be 7 or 8 years, mind.
  • stodge said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    This is the hubris of perceived supremacy - of more than a decade in power, endless opinion poll leads and an election won with a majority of 80.

    They believe they will never lose - people will always vote Conservative over Labour and the others - and that empowers them to think, do and act as they see fit.
    Partly. Although the utter depravity and sense of entitlement of Johnson personally is also a problem. Narcissism is hardly unknown in politics but he has won the silver medal in the event at a canter (the gold/orange medal was never in doubt).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    CatMan said:

    It was Gary Ballance who said the P-Word

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59155576

    "Ex-England international Gary Ballance has said he "regrets" using a racial slur against his former Yorkshire team-mate Azeem Rafiq.

    In a lengthy and emotional statement, Ballance said he was responsible for some of the offensive terms Rafiq was subjected to during his time at Headingley.

    "It has been reported that I used a racial slur and, as I told the independent enquiry, I accept that I did so and I regret doing so," said Ballance, 31.

    "To be clear - I deeply regret some of the language I used in my younger years.""

    Presumably Ballance is the Zimbo.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,132
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
    I think both Le Pen and Bertrand are worth backing at current odds, as both push Macron closely, and could win with a swing in the campaign.

    It's hard to see value in the current odds on Macron.
    Well, Macron will be in the final two (short of something extraordinary happening). He will face one of the following five opponents:

    Bertrand (60% chance of beating Macron)
    Barnier (50% chance)
    Le Pen (33% chace)
    Zemmour (5%)
    Melanchon (2%)

    Right now, Zemmour leads Le Pen leads the LR candidate. It's possible LR comes through, and maybe even likely that Le Pen beats out Zemmour. But right now, Macron is rightly the odds on favourite.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    It was Gary Ballance who said the P-Word

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59155576

    "Ex-England international Gary Ballance has said he "regrets" using a racial slur against his former Yorkshire team-mate Azeem Rafiq.

    In a lengthy and emotional statement, Ballance said he was responsible for some of the offensive terms Rafiq was subjected to during his time at Headingley.

    "It has been reported that I used a racial slur and, as I told the independent enquiry, I accept that I did so and I regret doing so," said Ballance, 31.

    "To be clear - I deeply regret some of the language I used in my younger years.""

    Presumably Ballance is the Zimbo.
    I suspect his future at Yorkshire is in the Ballance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907
    edited November 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
    I agree with most of that but the 43% Zemmour is on with the new Harris would be 10% more than Le Pen got in 2017.
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1455913494021345286?s=20

    Le Pen is on 46% to 54% for Macron
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1455912685183307777?s=20

    The latest Elabe has Le Pen still second on 19% with Zemmour on 13% and Bertrand on 13% (Barnier if he is the LR candidate not Bertrand is on just 8%).


    https://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/presidentielle-2022.pdf

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,274
    edited November 2021
    I mean the police had a revolving door on Tony Blair's Downing St. for years (though they could never actually get him on anything ;) ) - The public shrugged and carried on voting for him.

    Politicians like Blair and Boris get away with "sleaze" where others like Major, Brown and May don't... This story will have minimal impact.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2h
    I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.

    True, except no-one will remember this whole saga in a few days' time.
    That's where I am

    I might have been exercised by this 5 or 10 years ago, maybe, maybe baby, but now? In the middle of a global plague and after ALL THAT SHIT??

    It's Tories gonna Tory, to me. Regrettable but forgettable

    That's probably a moral failing in me, but I wonder if I am more like the average punter in this narrow respect. Yawn
    You probably are. I couldn't really care less what politicians get up to as long as they enact policies I like. I guess if one were undecided it might flip them over to the so called good guys though. I think if actual criminals were in charge, but keeping the country running well/enacting policies I like, I'd be ok with it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    Why should they if they think to vote "aye" would bring Paiament into disrepute?

    In this instance Conservatives politicised a cross party process that was introduced by the Conservatives in 1995.

    You really can't shoulder the blame onto anyone else when one particular party has been so outrageously partisan in order to protect one of their own.
    According to Sam Coates earlier today even Labour MPs were telling him that they agreed that the system was flawed and should be reformed, but they didn't want to vote so because of Paterson. If they think the system was flawed then they should have voted with their conscience and not politicised it.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455840925482160131
    Whatever.

    It looks awful. And it looks exclusively like the work of the Conservatives.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP loses her job over abstaining on the Owen Paterson vote. https://twitter.com/AJRichardsonMP/status/1455977719813058561

    There's a nasty brutal element to the Johnson regime. Absolute loyalty or you swim with the fishes. Eddie Mair had it right when he called Johnson a nasty piece of work.
    I suspect you are right. And that absolutely makes me want to vote for Boris

    Post Covid, post Brexit, life is going to hard for Britain, for quite a while. I want some mean nasty fucker with ambition and guile in charge of the country, I don't want the bumbling well-meaning Sir Kir Royale

    Yes Boris is cunning and cruel. Perfect. I reckon it was this side that surprised Macron, and entirely blind-sided him, with AUKUS. Hence Macron's enormous pique
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    CatMan said:

    It was Gary Ballance who said the P-Word

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59155576

    "Ex-England international Gary Ballance has said he "regrets" using a racial slur against his former Yorkshire team-mate Azeem Rafiq.

    In a lengthy and emotional statement, Ballance said he was responsible for some of the offensive terms Rafiq was subjected to during his time at Headingley.

    "It has been reported that I used a racial slur and, as I told the independent enquiry, I accept that I did so and I regret doing so," said Ballance, 31.

    "To be clear - I deeply regret some of the language I used in my younger years.""

    Bloody Rhodesian. What do you expect?!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,134

    Thinking back to when I briefly claimed JSA (as UC was then called), I remember the ferocious warnings given to claimants who failed to declare income in order to reduce the effective tax rate of 80-90%. People who "forgot" to mention £100 of earnings would be subject to criminals sanctions, with very little sympathy from anyone.

    Conservatives have now voted to protect a colleague who received exactly 1000 times that from private companies and was then found by an all-party committee to have broken the rules on lobbying.

    Having a large majority and a polling lead is encouraging the Government to think it can get away with anything. I suspect that will turn out not to be true for much longer.

    Nick, I asked earlier, and no one replied, is there anything here that looks potentially like criminality rather than unparliamentary behaviour.

    Bearing in mind some Labour MPs did jail time for the expenses scandal. Is being paid to ask questions in the house unlawful? Genuine question.
    As others have now said, I don't think it's criminal. In many societies it's of course commonplace for members of Parliament to take up issues that they have received money for - I doubt if it would raise many eyebrows in the US, let alone Russia. Britain has tried to maintain a higher standard, but by Parliamentary self-regulation through a cross-party committee. It's that tradition that has been broken here, and I think that inevitably one has to conclude that the law should ban such activities, since MPs have proved unwilling to respect the system.
    Doesn't criminality depend on a police report, and the charge.

    Misconduct in a Public Office is conceivable.

    (Which always makes me smile as it sounds like illicit nookie at work.)

    The offence is committed when:

    a public officer acting as such;
    wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself;
    to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder;
    without reasonable excuse or justification.


    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misconduct-public-office
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,274
    New Thread :)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,403
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2h
    I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.

    True, except no-one will remember this whole saga in a few days' time.
    That's where I am

    I might have been exercised by this 5 or 10 years ago, maybe, maybe baby, but now? In the middle of a global plague and after ALL THAT SHIT??

    It's Tories gonna Tory, to me. Regrettable but forgettable

    That's probably a moral failing in me, but I wonder if I am more like the average punter in this narrow respect. Yawn
    It's drip, drip, drip though. Eventually the bucket is full.
    That may be 7 or 8 years, mind.
    Clearly today’s shenanigans are deeply shameful for the conservatives, if they had any shame that is. But the problem is the less politically engaged public, I.e. the 99.9% who don’t post obsessive on pb, won’t care that much, and even if they do, they will probably think that all politicians are the same. Now that may not be fair, but that’s what happens.
    And to be honest the idea that the conservatives are uniquely bad in this doesn’t really wash. I recall the last labour government. A fair few scandals in that one too. Mandelson? Baroness Scotland? Blunket? And the SNP is not immune. Poor old Nippy has such a poor memory that she should probably be disbarred from office...
    So a terrible day, and one that will enrage many, especially on pb, but it will be a tiny ripple by the weekend for the public at large.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
    I think both Le Pen and Bertrand are worth backing at current odds, as both push Macron closely, and could win with a swing in the campaign.

    It's hard to see value in the current odds on Macron.
    Well, Macron will be in the final two (short of something extraordinary happening). He will face one of the following five opponents:

    Bertrand (60% chance of beating Macron)
    Barnier (50% chance)
    Le Pen (33% chace)
    Zemmour (5%)
    Melanchon (2%)

    Right now, Zemmour leads Le Pen leads the LR candidate. It's possible LR comes through, and maybe even likely that Le Pen beats out Zemmour. But right now, Macron is rightly the odds on favourite.
    It's a neat mirror image of the British situation.

    Macron/Johnson is eminently beatable. But the right/left are unwilling to unite round a candidate mainstream enough to do this, preferring to push for someone who makes them feel good, rather than being able to win.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    GIN1138 said:

    I mean the police had a revolving door on Tony Blair's Downing St. for years (though they could never actually get him on anything ;) ) - The public shrugged and carried on voting for him.

    Politicians like Blair and Boris get away with "sleaze" where others like Major, Brown and May don't... This story will have minimal impact.

    When Blair was interviewed by plod over cash for gongs he was already out of office and Brown was PM. It seriously damaged his reputation. For me at least
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Just saw the earlier French Presidential polling from Harris.

    Irrespective of the LR candidate, Zemmour is running second at 17-18% in front of Le Pen at 15-16%.

    Macron beats Zemmour 62-38 in a hypothetical run-off while Bertrand and Le Pen lose 46-54. If Zemmour runs, Macron will win easily on this evidence.

    Have the polled Barnier? I think he could win if he makes the final two.
    Both Bertrand and Barnier can beat Macron. Le Pen would probably lose narrowly (although I think she is fully capable of winning). Zemmour would get ground into the dust by Macron.
    I agree with most of that but the 43% Zemmour is on with the new Harris would be 10% more than Le Pen got in 2017.
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1455913494021345286?s=20

    Le Pen is on 46% to 54% for Macron
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1455912685183307777?s=20

    The latest Elabe has Le Pen still second on 19% with Zemmour on 13% and Bertrand on 13% (Barnier if he is the LR candidate not Bertrand is on just 8%).


    https://elabe.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/presidentielle-2022.pdf

    Barnier even trails Melenchon with Harris 9% to 10%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1455911681394098179?s=20
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP loses her job over abstaining on the Owen Paterson vote. https://twitter.com/AJRichardsonMP/status/1455977719813058561

    There's a nasty brutal element to the Johnson regime. Absolute loyalty or you swim with the fishes. Eddie Mair had it right when he called Johnson a nasty piece of work.
    I suspect you are right. And that absolutely makes me want to vote for Boris

    Post Covid, post Brexit, life is going to hard for Britain, for quite a while. I want some mean nasty fucker with ambition and guile in charge of the country, I don't want the bumbling well-meaning Sir Kir Royale

    Yes Boris is cunning and cruel. Perfect. I reckon it was this side that surprised Macron, and entirely blind-sided him, with AUKUS. Hence Macron's enormous pique
    You've been reading SeanThomas in the Speccie again haven't you? He's like Fox News, he makes the angry, angrier.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP loses her job over abstaining on the Owen Paterson vote. https://twitter.com/AJRichardsonMP/status/1455977719813058561

    There's a nasty brutal element to the Johnson regime. Absolute loyalty or you swim with the fishes. Eddie Mair had it right when he called Johnson a nasty piece of work.
    I suspect you are right. And that absolutely makes me want to vote for Boris

    Post Covid, post Brexit, life is going to hard for Britain, for quite a while. I want some mean nasty fucker with ambition and guile in charge of the country, I don't want the bumbling well-meaning Sir Kir Royale

    Yes Boris is cunning and cruel. Perfect. I reckon it was this side that surprised Macron, and entirely blind-sided him, with AUKUS. Hence Macron's enormous pique
    He sees himself as a Roman emperor. He'll probably fall like one as well.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:



    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.

    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    To be honest, does anyone believe the recall would have reached the numbers and even if it had, would the Conservatives be in any serious danger of losing the seat where Paterson is hanging on by his fingertips to a 23,000 majority (50% more than Chesham & Amersham)?
    The Tories were clearly afraid it would at the least reach recall numbers. There's no reason for the urgency otherwise.

    I doubt anyone thought the by-election, if reached, would be lost though, and we know they have reselected people facing a recall before.
    I don't like the idea of recall elections to be honest. Hard on the constituents of their MP is sidelined for 30 days butt hey can always punish him at the next election.
    I'm in two minds on recall of MPs. I do think if you have it it should be relatively hard, because you don't want it triggered based on temporary issues of popularity or minority recalcitrant opinion or trivialities, but on the other hand I can see that it does not add a great deal when triggered by suspension that could not be dealt with at a future election.

    On balance I could probably support expanding disqualification to cover anyone convicted of a crime, and do away with recall.
    I think the problem with that is that it could be abused so that spurious prosecutions or illegality of the form of, for example, protest, could be used to remove MPs against the wishes of their constituents. There are good reasons for ensuring that only the voters get to choose who their MP is. It is hopefully not the case that the current administration or their successors would do such a thing but you can see how it could be abused by an administration not interested in protecting the democratic process.
    That's exactly the mechanism the Kremlin used to stop Navalny from standing for election.
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    not sure this sleaze story is going to disappear as quickly as they hope, expect more of this kind of thing 👇🏻 https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1455992451924168715/photo/1

    As I said, all politicised by the Opposition too.

    The whole thing stinks from both directions, this shouldn't be politicised.
    The clown just burned that bridge.
    It was politicised before the vote. The fact none of the Opposition MPs voted Aye is part of that.
    Why should they if they think to vote "aye" would bring Paiament into disrepute?

    In this instance Conservatives politicised a cross party process that was introduced by the Conservatives in 1995.

    You really can't shoulder the blame onto anyone else when one particular party has been so outrageously partisan in order to protect one of their own.
    According to Sam Coates earlier today even Labour MPs were telling him that they agreed that the system was flawed and should be reformed, but they didn't want to vote so because of Paterson. If they think the system was flawed then they should have voted with their conscience and not politicised it.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1455840925482160131
    Let's be honest: you never gave a flying fig about the parliamentary-standards process until this came up and it all started looking terrible for friend Boris.
    Actually as soon as I read Paterson's allegations against the Report I said that was troubling and it should go to an appeal.

    I've always cared about due process etc and have always thought that the rules of justice should be applied.

    I've been involved in chairing disciplinary proceedings in the past and vigorously ensuring that the right procedures are followed is something I've always cared about - and I've always known that any decisions I make could be appealed internally beyond me, and further appealed to tribunal etc externally too.

    I absolutely see no reason why that should not be the case here, and the partisan pointscoring by those who recognise there's an issue but want to score a political hit is unattractive.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,900

    Top banana is Aaron.

    I only caught the end of it but from his time here I assumed he'd be on the side of the angels. Well done TP
This discussion has been closed.