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CON MP and PBer, Aaron Bell, doesn’t back Bojo on Patterson – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 3 in General
imageCON MP and PBer, Aaron Bell, doesn’t back Bojo on Patterson – politicalbetting.com

The hugely controversial move by Johnson to overthrow an independent inquiry that found ex-cabinet minister Owen Paterson committed an “egregious” breach of lobbying rules has been passed by MPs. Patterson had faced a 30 day suspension which could have opened the door to a recall petition.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778
    @Tissue_Price should post more here like @NickPalmer used to do when he was an MP
  • Top banana is Aaron.
  • Depressing
  • I agree 100%
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743
    As I posted earlier - its interesting that Jill Mortimer the new MP for Hartlepool also voted against.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    edited November 3
    One T in Paterson, I believe.

    Nice to see Aaron Bell is one of the few unwilling to swallow the bilge.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    FPT
    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,574
    three cheers for Tissue Price, not sure showcasing him like this is the kindest thing.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191
    I don't agree with Tissue Price on this, but I very much respect him for standing up for what he believes in.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,582
    Not surprised to be honest by the Commons vote.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through
  • Foxy said:

    One T in Paterson, I believe.

    Nice to see Aaron Bell is one of the few unwilling to swallow the bilge.

    I think it is a terrible day for all those who voted to absolve Paterson

    I would have joined Aaron had I been an mp
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    Foxy said:

    One T in Paterson, I believe.

    Yes, only one T. But lots of £££££
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Why do you even need to try and find a thin argument?

    You told us way back that a Tory majority means they can do what they like and don’t have to listen to anyone other than Tory voters.

    Today they proved it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 3
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Paterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
  • HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    As I said on the previous thread you are a party apparatchick who will take Boris's side, when many ordinary conservatives, and indeed citizens , will see this as defending the indefensible
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law
    The letters, remember.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634
    Rather than just being unparliamentary is "cash for questions" a prosecutable offence?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476
    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,348
    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 3
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party and re elected by their constituents at every general election
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    You know what, say what you like.
    I'm taking the view from now on that anything a Conservative politician says might have been paid for by a sponsor. That includes you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    You know what, say what you like.
    I'm taking the view from now on that anything a Conservative politician says might have been paid for by a sponsor. That includes you.
    Says the newly born SNP Type voter...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,067
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    You know what, say what you like.
    I'm taking the view from now on that anything a Conservative politician says might have been paid for by a sponsor. That includes you.
    Now you're getting silly. Hyufd posts these things for free.

    In a way that's actually more disturbing of course, as it implies he believes the BS he usually ends up posting through carelessness.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    This website is a bit equivocal about the female prostate gland.
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321801#female-prostate-cancer
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited November 3
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
    Most public servants are on permanent contracts, some often doing the same role for life.

    Many of those on term contracts are highly paid consultants earning more than MPs do per hour, moving from contract to contract. Many top public servants also get big payoffs if they leave

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56281781
    https://www.union-news.co.uk/civil-servant-sacked-by-cummings-to-receive-pay-off/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
    Yet Owen Patterson and Christopher Chope. Two of my least favourite MPs are unassailable in their constituencies.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    What witness is required - the facts are simple

    Letters from Owen (writing as an MP) lobbying for items requested by companies who had paid him money while not explicitly mentioning the actual relationship between him and the companies he was writing on behalf of.

    I don't see any character witness being required.

    Worse, he then uses the suicide of his wife to justify not being punished for his crime.

    That last bit is in my eyes almost as bad as the initial crime - it's a woe is me attempt to avoid punishment.
    The facts are not simple.

    The fact is that there is a whistleblowing exemption to the rules and even the Report acknowledged that what he did fell under it at least once. He says he did what he did for public health, which is possibly why former Health Secretary and Chair of the Health Select Committee Jeremy Hunt signed the amendment.

    If the issue is to be determined whether this was a public health issue and he was entitled to act as he did within the rules, then proper examination and cross-examination of the witnesses is a part of due process.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Paterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    A point that suddenly occurred to a load of ‘honourable’ Tory MPs just moments after one of their own was found guilty under the current arrangements, helped along by being prevented from reaching their own independent judgements on the matter by the imposition of a government whip.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
    Most public servants are on permanent contracts, some often doing the same role for life.

    Many of those on term contracts are highly paid consultants earning more than MPs do per hour, moving from contract to contract
    What exactly has that to do with anything.

    So now your reason why Owen abused his position as an MP is because he saw other people earning more and thought I want some of that.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778
    The main story of the day for me is #wearaskirttoschool day with I noticed the SNP Types on the last thread managed to brush under the carpet in their usual SNP Type way-


    Megan
    @British_Megan
    ·
    31m
    Replying to
    @British_Megan

    @nuttynic3
    and
    @georgegalloway
    They are generally for girls, saying that if he chose to wear one I obviously wouldn't care! Let people wear what they like! This, however, reeks of SNP obsession with childrens gender identity which has no place in young childrens educational setting, imo.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Paterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    A point that suddenly occurred to a load of ‘honourable’ Tory MPs just moments after one of their own was found guilty under the current arrangements, helped along by being prevented from reaching their own independent judgements on the matter by the imposition of a government whip.
    It's impossible to know for sure, but how much difference do we think whipping makes to the number of votes for the government in a situation like this?

    Would they have lost if they hadn't whipped the vote? How much by? 50, 100?
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    What witness is required - the facts are simple

    Letters from Owen (writing as an MP) lobbying for items requested by companies who had paid him money while not explicitly mentioning the actual relationship between him and the companies he was writing on behalf of.

    I don't see any character witness being required.

    Worse, he then uses the suicide of his wife to justify not being punished for his crime.

    That last bit is in my eyes almost as bad as the initial crime - it's a woe is me attempt to avoid punishment.
    The facts are not simple.

    The fact is that there is a whistleblowing exemption to the rules and even the Report acknowledged that what he did fell under it at least once. He says he did what he did for public health, which is possibly why former Health Secretary and Chair of the Health Select Committee Jeremy Hunt signed the amendment.

    If the issue is to be determined whether this was a public health issue and he was entitled to act as he did within the rules, then proper examination and cross-examination of the witnesses is a part of due process.
    If it was for public health reasons he could repay his lobbying fees and there would be no conflict of interest.

    Yet he hasn't.....
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,839
    Anyone read the Katy Balls piece explaining what this is really about (allegedly)?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Paterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    A point that suddenly occurred to a load of ‘honourable’ Tory MPs just moments after one of their own was found guilty under the current arrangements, helped along by being prevented from reaching their own independent judgements on the matter by the imposition of a government whip.
    Alternatively many 'honourable' Opposition MPs know that what happened here was wrong and that he should have the right to justice and an appeal, but want to score a political hit against their opponents.
  • A lot of the Red Wall class of 2019 have got there by following the classic Liberal playbook, of being Ourtown's Voice At Westminster.
    It's not a stupid approach.
    Puts them in a tricky position when the PM does something like this, though.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,348
    Evening all :)

    I went to a meeting today in Guildford - my first work-related trip for three weeks.

    I'm travelling at what I used to consider the middle of commuting time - 7.30am down from West Ham to Waterloo on the Jubilee Line. The tube - quiet, plenty of seats. Far more people getting on at Canary Wharf than off but still a long way from the sardine journeys of pre-Covid days with only a few standing.

    This evening - I get the drain up from Waterloo at 4.50pm - we pull into Bank and the platform has six people on it - in pre-Covid days, they'd have ben five deep and it was a real fight to get out of Bank. Even the District Line home from Cannon Street at 5pm was quiet - plenty of seats, more like mid morning than rush hour.

    I have to say Mrs Stodge's experience from yesterday wasn't the same but she had some travel misfortune which meant an 8-minute wait at East Ham in the morning so her tube at 8.15am was crowded.

    What's happening? There are more commuters travelling but we're still a long way from pre-Covid numbers. The "rush hour" has collapsed back to a shorter time. It's obvious there's a huge divide between the homeworkers and the other morning commuters (those in retail, construction workers etc). I must confess the allure of the commute on a cold winter's morning doesn't have the lustre it once did. Perhaps some have abandoned public transport out of fear and have gone back to their cars even with motorway protesters and rising fuel prices.

    There's still a lot of propaganda out there extoling the virtues of returning to the office etc but the truth (or the perception I don't know) is different. Hybrid working rather than outright full time home working is here and here to stay. The office I visited was boasting about an occupancy rate of 30% - that's not much to boast about in all honesty.

    I realise my experience is totally mine - plenty will no doubt assert they are back full time in full offices working just as they did before the virus. Perhaps - that's just not what I saw today.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Fair enough. I'm not a gynaecologist and my notion of the various homologies between male and female anatomies is only basic.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
    Most public servants are on permanent contracts, some often doing the same role for life.

    Many of those on term contracts are highly paid consultants earning more than MPs do per hour, moving from contract to contract
    What exactly has that to do with anything.

    So now your reason why Owen abused his position as an MP is because he saw other people earning more and thought I want some of that.
    Not much of a defence for a social security scrounger on a hobble.

    "Lock 'em up and throw away the key". I am sure circa 250 Conservative MPs would agree with that sentiment too.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    Anyone read the Katy Balls piece explaining what this is really about (allegedly)?

    Link?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    Rubbish.

    The whole point of an independent standards process is that it is not at the whim of Parliament or government. Now it is no longer independent.

    Every MP voting for the amendment today is now an accessory to corruption.
    Patterson was found guilty without even being allowed to call witnesses or have an appeal.

    Even a suspended cleaner would have been allowed that under employment tribunal law.

    If we are no longer going to solely leave MPs to be accountable to their constituents or their local parties before or at general elections but subject to sanctions from Parliament and then potential recall mid Parliament they must be allowed the same employment law rights in full everyone else in the workforce has
    In which case they ought to be treated as public servants. Have the civil service pension scheme or similar; conform to full expenses rules; have their staff employed for them by the parliament; and so on. And instant dismissal for basic offences such as accepting money from outsiders to influence their work.
    Public servants should then also have to reapply for their job every 4 or 5 years on the same logic as MPs have to do to get reselected by their local party at re elected by their constituents at every general election
    You're forgetting that a lot of public servants are on term contracts. MPs get paid off at the end of their contract if they lose. Ordinary human beings don't. Indeed, the MPs shouldn't get paid off at all - they have most signally failed in their jobs.
    Most public servants are on permanent contracts, some often doing the same role for life.

    Many of those on term contracts are highly paid consultants earning more than MPs do per hour, moving from contract to contract. Many top public servants also get big payoffs if they leave

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56281781
    https://www.union-news.co.uk/civil-servant-sacked-by-cummings-to-receive-pay-off/
    THose payoffs are due to either long service or abuse by employers. The sort of payoff one would get after a 3-5 year fixed term contract is nil in any normal job.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    JBriskin3 said:

    The main story of the day for me is #wearaskirttoschool day with I noticed the SNP Types on the last thread managed to brush under the carpet in their usual SNP Type way-


    Megan
    @British_Megan
    ·
    31m
    Replying to
    @British_Megan

    @nuttynic3
    and
    @georgegalloway
    They are generally for girls, saying that if he chose to wear one I obviously wouldn't care! Let people wear what they like! This, however, reeks of SNP obsession with childrens gender identity which has no place in young childrens educational setting, imo.

    Where does a kilt fit in that scenario?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,498
    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    You are seeing this one through Tory tinted glasses.

    This is a massive political own goal
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    edited November 3

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    It would have to be some part of the body that didn't have cell replication, ergo no turnover, ergo effectively dead - the lens of the eye, tooth enamel, finger and toe nails, that's about it?

    Edit: but the bed/root of the nail could well become cancerous; it;s always growing, after all.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,526
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I went to a meeting today in Guildford - my first work-related trip for three weeks.

    I'm travelling at what I used to consider the middle of commuting time - 7.30am down from West Ham to Waterloo on the Jubilee Line. The tube - quiet, plenty of seats. Far more people getting on at Canary Wharf than off but still a long way from the sardine journeys of pre-Covid days with only a few standing.

    This evening - I get the drain up from Waterloo at 4.50pm - we pull into Bank and the platform has six people on it - in pre-Covid days, they'd have ben five deep and it was a real fight to get out of Bank. Even the District Line home from Cannon Street at 5pm was quiet - plenty of seats, more like mid morning than rush hour.

    I have to say Mrs Stodge's experience from yesterday wasn't the same but she had some travel misfortune which meant an 8-minute wait at East Ham in the morning so her tube at 8.15am was crowded.

    What's happening? There are more commuters travelling but we're still a long way from pre-Covid numbers. The "rush hour" has collapsed back to a shorter time. It's obvious there's a huge divide between the homeworkers and the other morning commuters (those in retail, construction workers etc). I must confess the allure of the commute on a cold winter's morning doesn't have the lustre it once did. Perhaps some have abandoned public transport out of fear and have gone back to their cars even with motorway protesters and rising fuel prices.

    There's still a lot of propaganda out there extoling the virtues of returning to the office etc but the truth (or the perception I don't know) is different. Hybrid working rather than outright full time home working is here and here to stay. The office I visited was boasting about an occupancy rate of 30% - that's not much to boast about in all honesty.

    I realise my experience is totally mine - plenty will no doubt assert they are back full time in full offices working just as they did before the virus. Perhaps - that's just not what I saw today.

    A lot of companies I have been working for recently are moving to a 60:40 split office:home. It means that those companies which are expanding can do so without having to worry about the costs of larger offices whilst for others it is a case of the management realising it is the future and using covid as a perfect excuse to do it. Seems a pretty good balance to me looking in. I work from home about 95% of the time anyway and have no managerial duties so I see the benefits anyway. If I were managing people I might be a little more concerned about things like Team building, new joinees and general comms. But I think it is the future for most companies.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I went to a meeting today in Guildford - my first work-related trip for three weeks.

    I'm travelling at what I used to consider the middle of commuting time - 7.30am down from West Ham to Waterloo on the Jubilee Line. The tube - quiet, plenty of seats. Far more people getting on at Canary Wharf than off but still a long way from the sardine journeys of pre-Covid days with only a few standing.

    This evening - I get the drain up from Waterloo at 4.50pm - we pull into Bank and the platform has six people on it - in pre-Covid days, they'd have ben five deep and it was a real fight to get out of Bank. Even the District Line home from Cannon Street at 5pm was quiet - plenty of seats, more like mid morning than rush hour.

    I have to say Mrs Stodge's experience from yesterday wasn't the same but she had some travel misfortune which meant an 8-minute wait at East Ham in the morning so her tube at 8.15am was crowded.

    What's happening? There are more commuters travelling but we're still a long way from pre-Covid numbers. The "rush hour" has collapsed back to a shorter time. It's obvious there's a huge divide between the homeworkers and the other morning commuters (those in retail, construction workers etc). I must confess the allure of the commute on a cold winter's morning doesn't have the lustre it once did. Perhaps some have abandoned public transport out of fear and have gone back to their cars even with motorway protesters and rising fuel prices.

    There's still a lot of propaganda out there extoling the virtues of returning to the office etc but the truth (or the perception I don't know) is different. Hybrid working rather than outright full time home working is here and here to stay. The office I visited was boasting about an occupancy rate of 30% - that's not much to boast about in all honesty.

    I realise my experience is totally mine - plenty will no doubt assert they are back full time in full offices working just as they did before the virus. Perhaps - that's just not what I saw today.

    Every time I have driven into London since the summer - three times so far - on a weekday, the traffic has been diabolical. So part of the explanation is mode switching, for fear of the virus.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    That’s an excellent question. I’d guess any tissue that undergoes mitosis will have the potential to go wrong, but I can’t be definitive.

    One the the things I wish more people understood is that the term ‘cancer’ is actually rubbish, as it covers so many different diseases. When I was being treated for leukaemia I encounter a chap I knew who being treated for prostate cancer. He naively assumed that all ‘cancer’ treatment was the same, and didn’t understand why I wasn’t having six weeks of radiotherapy like him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I went to a meeting today in Guildford - my first work-related trip for three weeks.

    I'm travelling at what I used to consider the middle of commuting time - 7.30am down from West Ham to Waterloo on the Jubilee Line. The tube - quiet, plenty of seats. Far more people getting on at Canary Wharf than off but still a long way from the sardine journeys of pre-Covid days with only a few standing.

    This evening - I get the drain up from Waterloo at 4.50pm - we pull into Bank and the platform has six people on it - in pre-Covid days, they'd have ben five deep and it was a real fight to get out of Bank. Even the District Line home from Cannon Street at 5pm was quiet - plenty of seats, more like mid morning than rush hour.

    I have to say Mrs Stodge's experience from yesterday wasn't the same but she had some travel misfortune which meant an 8-minute wait at East Ham in the morning so her tube at 8.15am was crowded.

    What's happening? There are more commuters travelling but we're still a long way from pre-Covid numbers. The "rush hour" has collapsed back to a shorter time. It's obvious there's a huge divide between the homeworkers and the other morning commuters (those in retail, construction workers etc). I must confess the allure of the commute on a cold winter's morning doesn't have the lustre it once did. Perhaps some have abandoned public transport out of fear and have gone back to their cars even with motorway protesters and rising fuel prices.

    There's still a lot of propaganda out there extoling the virtues of returning to the office etc but the truth (or the perception I don't know) is different. Hybrid working rather than outright full time home working is here and here to stay. The office I visited was boasting about an occupancy rate of 30% - that's not much to boast about in all honesty.

    I realise my experience is totally mine - plenty will no doubt assert they are back full time in full offices working just as they did before the virus. Perhaps - that's just not what I saw today.

    Every time I have driven into London since the summer - three times so far - on a weekday, the traffic has been diabolical. So part of the explanation is mode switching, for fear of the virus.
    I remember people being repeatedly surprised by increases in car journeys during the whole COVID thing. To me it seemed obvious why.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,839

    Anyone read the Katy Balls piece explaining what this is really about (allegedly)?

    Link?
    Well it's behind a paywall.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-owen-paterson-tory-sleaze-row-is-about
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Woke (/woʊk/ wohk) is a term originating in the United States that originally meant to be alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,740

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    That’s an excellent question. I’d guess any tissue that undergoes mitosis will have the potential to go wrong, but I can’t be definitive.

    One the the things I wish more people understood is that the term ‘cancer’ is actually rubbish, as it covers so many different diseases. When I was being treated for leukaemia I encounter a chap I knew who being treated for prostate cancer. He naively assumed that all ‘cancer’ treatment was the same, and didn’t understand why I wasn’t having six weeks of radiotherapy like him.
    Fingernails?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    This affair will probably be forgotten about within 72 hours.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477

    Anyone read the Katy Balls piece explaining what this is really about (allegedly)?

    Link?
    Well it's behind a paywall.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-owen-paterson-tory-sleaze-row-is-about
    TLDR: payback for the standards commissioner, in the hope she’ll have to go

    Among the MPs who have signed Leadsom’s amendment, six have had allegations against them upheld by the standards commissioner since last year. Stone has also been very critical of the Prime Minister – including his delay in saying who paid for his 2019 Christmas holiday to the Caribbean – with Johnson warned that he has an ‘over-casual attitude towards obeying the rules of the House’.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743

    Anyone read the Katy Balls piece explaining what this is really about (allegedly)?

    Link?
    Well it's behind a paywall.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-owen-paterson-tory-sleaze-row-is-about
    I'll quote the last line (and remember this is for the Tory's other (weekly) house journal)...

    It won’t take much for this to move to a much wider debate about whether the government and Tory party is attempting to rig the system to avoid scrutiny and look after their own.
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Yes
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009
    JBriskin3 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Woke (/woʊk/ wohk) is a term originating in the United States that originally meant to be alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
    It's rather like Multi-Culturalsim - so variable in its geometry that everything up to "Separate Development"* was advocated under it, and if queried, the questioner could be accused of not tolerating other cultures.....

    *Yes, indeed.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778

    JBriskin3 said:

    The main story of the day for me is #wearaskirttoschool day with I noticed the SNP Types on the last thread managed to brush under the carpet in their usual SNP Type way-


    Megan
    @British_Megan
    ·
    31m
    Replying to
    @British_Megan

    @nuttynic3
    and
    @georgegalloway
    They are generally for girls, saying that if he chose to wear one I obviously wouldn't care! Let people wear what they like! This, however, reeks of SNP obsession with childrens gender identity which has no place in young childrens educational setting, imo.

    Where does a kilt fit in that scenario?
    Yes I thought someone might come out with that sort of comment. Unfortunately I didn't bother to pre-prepare an answer.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743
    Andy_JS said:

    This affair will probably be forgotten about within 72 hours.

    Nope, I will be using it for the next few years - any time a Tory MP raises a point with me.

    Which given what I'm about to launch will probably be rather often...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    edited November 3

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Yes
    That really is well beyond acceptable conduct. Disgusting.

    Unless, of course, he voted against!

    But he really, really should NOT have voted either way!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    JBriskin3 said:

    @Tissue_Price should post more here like @NickPalmer used to do when he was an MP

    If he dares to rebel again he'll find his prospects sufficiently reduced that he will have plenty of free time to be open with his thoughts on blogs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    This from Guido of all people

    250 to 232 an 18 majority

    A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote

    And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
    To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.

    Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.

    If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
    What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.

    The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
    That is largely my view actually.

    MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.

    If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.

    As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant

    It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.

    So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.

    That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
    Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.

    I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election

    You have utterly missed my point.

    Let me take you through it slowly.

    The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused.
    That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.

    Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.

    So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
    It is important to offer a fair trial yes, especially in criminal trials.

    In terms of sanction however for the guilty while in a criminal matter the suicide of a family member may not be taken into account, in a non criminal matter like this where the most likely sanction was simply a trivial month's suspension then if MPs wanted to drop that punishment because of the context that is their right to do so.

    As I have said I remain of the view in any case MPs should solely be judged by the constituents and local parties anyway not Parliament on how they have performed in their job.

    His wife's suicide was very sad, but he was found to have breached the ethics and a 30 day suspension is not trivial as it can trigger a recall petition which is exactly the point you make in your last paragraph
    A very well put and concise comment. A sad event does not mean ethics rules do not exist, and the existing process has been much misrepresented.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Changing the process retroactively is wrong.

    The way the process is being changed is wrong.

    Adding an appeal process to the Committee on Standards is actually a good idea, IMHO, but that is not what is happening here.
    MPs cannot be so dense that they are incapable of understanding that even if there is a wrong, some ways of 'fixing' that can itself be wrong. We know they are not so dense because they've used the same reasoning to resist changes on other things.
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Yes
    That really is well beyond acceptable conduct. Disgusting.

    Unless, of course, he voted against!

    But he really, really should have voted either way!
    He voted for as I shake my head
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,395
    Andy_JS said:

    This affair will probably be forgotten about within 72 hours.

    Probably, which I guess is what Boris thinks
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Changing the process retroactively is wrong.

    The way the process is being changed is wrong.

    Adding an appeal process to the Committee on Standards is actually a good idea, IMHO, but that is not what is happening here.
    Except that the MPs already had the final say in the existing process. Just because some assumed that MPs final say would be a rubber stamp doesn't make it so, if they weren't supposed to have a say then that stage should have been removed from the process.

    So if as they have the MPs decline to confirm the report until an appeal is held, then that's not changing the process, its them exercising their discretion they already had a right to do under the existing system.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,839
    Are any of Paterson's 17 witnesses going to speak publicly or have they taken a vow of silence?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    JBriskin3 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Woke (/woʊk/ wohk) is a term originating in the United States that originally meant to be alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
    Ok, this helps, but it raises some questions, not least around what "left-wing" means here. All of us have "ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans," some diametrically opposed to others. Which are the left-wing ones?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    This from Guido of all people

    250 to 232 an 18 majority

    A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote

    And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
    To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.

    Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.

    If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
    What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.

    The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
    That is largely my view actually.

    MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.

    If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.

    As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant

    It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.

    So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.

    That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
    Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.

    I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election

    You have utterly missed my point.

    Let me take you through it slowly.

    The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused.
    That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.

    Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.

    So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
    It is important to offer a fair trial yes, especially in criminal trials.

    In terms of sanction however for the guilty while in a criminal matter the suicide of a family member may not be taken into account, in a non criminal matter like this where the most likely sanction was simply a trivial month's suspension then if MPs wanted to drop that punishment because of the context that is their right to do so.

    As I have said I remain of the view in any case MPs should solely be judged by the constituents and local parties anyway not Parliament on how they have performed in their job.

    His wife's suicide was very sad, but he was found to have breached the ethics and a 30 day suspension is not trivial as it can trigger a recall petition which is exactly the point you make in your last paragraph
    A very well put and concise comment. A sad event does not mean ethics rules do not exist, and the existing process has been much misrepresented.
    I did think the way he tried to use his wife’s suicide as a stick to beat the standards process was reprehensible. She didn’t leave a note and he has said previously that her act came as a terrible surprise; how can he be so sure what her motivation was? It happened on his birthday, too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Yes
    That really is well beyond acceptable conduct. Disgusting.

    Unless, of course, he voted against!

    But he really, really should have voted either way!
    He voted for as I shake my head
    He really has no sense of honour or concept of honesty!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This affair will probably be forgotten about within 72 hours.

    Probably, which I guess is what Boris thinks
    He’s not short of relevant experience, after all. Although forgotten is overstating things.
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    The basis on which a recall is triggered would suggest a process has already been undertaken. If, for example, an MP receives a custodial sentence of less than a year, we can assume a legal process has been undertaken including a right to appeal.

    Conviction under Section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act is also a process through which the MP can appeal and presumably call witnesses to affirm his/her innocence.

    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.
    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    I think Mr S makes some good points. And I agree that if there’s no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards there ought to be.
    Did Paterson vote in the Division today? Can’t, ATOW, find out.
    Yes
    That really is well beyond acceptable conduct. Disgusting.

    Unless, of course, he voted against!

    But he really, really should have voted either way!
    He voted for as I shake my head
    He really has no sense of honour or concept of honesty!
    I have always thought he is arrogant to be honest
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,348

    stodge said:



    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.

    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    The problem from where I'm sitting is the recommendations of the Standards Committee need to be ratified by MPs as a whole and as we've seen the "motivated self interest" of some MPs may cause them to dissent from the decisions of the Standards Committee.

    However, the old quis custodiet, ipsos custodes (Please correct me, classics scholars, if required) principle does come to mind.

    To be honest, does anyone believe the recall would have reached the numbers and even if it had, would the Conservatives be in any serious danger of losing the seat where Paterson is hanging on by his fingertips to a 23,000 majority (50% more than Chesham & Amersham)?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Only the terminally stupid can now be in any doubt what Wokeness is. So you’re either lying or exceptionally dim

    Wokeness is what lost Virginia for the Dems yesterday. In this case, quite specifically: the teaching of Critical Race Theory in Virginian schools, and an alleged rape in a school that was apparently hushed-up, because Trans issues
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:



    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.

    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    The problem from where I'm sitting is the recommendations of the Standards Committee need to be ratified by MPs as a whole and as we've seen the "motivated self interest" of some MPs may cause them to dissent from the decisions of the Standards Committee.

    However, the old quis custodiet, ipsos custodes (Please correct me, classics scholars, if required) principle does come to mind.

    To be honest, does anyone believe the recall would have reached the numbers and even if it had, would the Conservatives be in any serious danger of losing the seat where Paterson is hanging on by his fingertips to a 23,000 majority (50% more than Chesham & Amersham)?
    I am sure he would have held his seat but that does not excuse today's events
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 778
    Farooq said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Woke (/woʊk/ wohk) is a term originating in the United States that originally meant to be alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
    Ok, this helps, but it raises some questions, not least around what "left-wing" means here. All of us have "ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans," some diametrically opposed to others. Which are the left-wing ones?
    Sorry, as a new born SNP Type I don't feel the need to engage with you much from now on.

    Night night PBers - I'll check in tomorrow as I promised.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    stodge said:

    stodge said:



    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.

    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    The problem from where I'm sitting is the recommendations of the Standards Committee need to be ratified by MPs as a whole and as we've seen the "motivated self interest" of some MPs may cause them to dissent from the decisions of the Standards Committee.

    However, the old quis custodiet, ipsos custodes (Please correct me, classics scholars, if required) principle does come to mind.

    To be honest, does anyone believe the recall would have reached the numbers and even if it had, would the Conservatives be in any serious danger of losing the seat where Paterson is hanging on by his fingertips to a 23,000 majority (50% more than Chesham & Amersham)?
    “I know that one,” said Vimes. “Who watches the watchmen? Me, Mr. Pessimal.”
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,526

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    I must admit I have never heard of a muscle cancer so I assume the heart cannot get cancer. I may well prove to be wrong there though.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    JBriskin3 said:

    Farooq said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    "What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?" Well, quite. Eye of the beholder, perhaps?

    I'm sure that someone somewhere thinks Hylas and the Nymphs (John William Waterhouse) is pornographic. It's unequivocally got nudes. So if someone calls it pornography, they can point to an objective truth, but are also bringing with them a subjective judgement. And I would find it hard to understand what they meant by pornography as a result, because it simply isn't, in my mind, pornography.

    It's a bit like that with woke, I'm sure, but I can't quite define what it is we're talking about even objectively. It's definitely used in a negative sense by some, and I have a vague sense that it's aimed at disapproved-of aspects of social equality, but is that even right? I honestly don't know except by way of example, such your male/prostate thing.
    Woke (/woʊk/ wohk) is a term originating in the United States that originally meant to be alert to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
    Ok, this helps, but it raises some questions, not least around what "left-wing" means here. All of us have "ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion of white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans," some diametrically opposed to others. Which are the left-wing ones?
    Sorry, as a new born SNP Type I don't feel the need to engage with you much from now on.

    Night night PBers - I'll check in tomorrow as I promised.
    Oh, well, my loss. I guess.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,348
    IanB2 said:


    Every time I have driven into London since the summer - three times so far - on a weekday, the traffic has been diabolical. So part of the explanation is mode switching, for fear of the virus.

    Thank you for allowing me to introduce a new term into the varied PB lexicon - WIGTT.

    Stands for "What's It Going To Take?"

    As an example, if self-preservation has led to people abandoning public transport for their cars (with all the consequent environmental impact) WIGTT to get them back on trains, tubes and buses (which are cleaner than they've ever been)?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    stodge said:

    IanB2 said:


    Every time I have driven into London since the summer - three times so far - on a weekday, the traffic has been diabolical. So part of the explanation is mode switching, for fear of the virus.

    Thank you for allowing me to introduce a new term into the varied PB lexicon - WIGTT.

    Stands for "What's It Going To Take?"

    As an example, if self-preservation has led to people abandoning public transport for their cars (with all the consequent environmental impact) WIGTT to get them back on trains, tubes and buses (which are cleaner than they've ever been)?
    Very timely, too, as it could also apply to the evolution of standards of probity amongst MPs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    If MPs are going to be suspended and subject to recall mid Parliament, they could at least be entitled to call witnesses and have a right to appeal as would happen in employment tribunal cases.

    On that basis it is right the Leadsom amendment went through

    What witness is required - the facts are simple

    Letters from Owen (writing as an MP) lobbying for items requested by companies who had paid him money while not explicitly mentioning the actual relationship between him and the companies he was writing on behalf of.

    I don't see any character witness being required.

    Worse, he then uses the suicide of his wife to justify not being punished for his crime.

    That last bit is in my eyes almost as bad as the initial crime - it's a woe is me attempt to avoid punishment.
    The facts are not simple.

    The fact is that there is a whistleblowing exemption to the rules and even the Report acknowledged that what he did fell under it at least once. He says he did what he did for public health, which is possibly why former Health Secretary and Chair of the Health Select Committee Jeremy Hunt signed the amendment.

    If the issue is to be determined whether this was a public health issue and he was entitled to act as he did within the rules, then proper examination and cross-examination of the witnesses is a part of due process.
    None of that would prevent him from openly declaring that he was a paid lobbyist though would it?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    I must admit I have never heard of a muscle cancer so I assume the heart cannot get cancer. I may well prove to be wrong there though.
    Me neither, but I poked around and there are indeed muscle cancers - rhabdomyosarcomas.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    stodge said:

    stodge said:



    We then have the suspension clause which only comes into effect if the suspension from the Committee on Standards is longer than 10 sitting days, There is where my lack of knowledge of the process exists - does an MP not have the right of appeal to the Committee of Standards and can an MP not bring evidence to the Committee in support of their innocence?

    If the answer is no, you have a point but if the answer is yes, frankly you don't as the process (with its appeal elements) will have been undertaken. If of course an MP has no right of appeal to the Committee on Standards, that seems curious to this observer and is a different question worth considering.

    The biggest problem is that "standards" are being enforced by other MPs. Who guards the guardians etc.
    The problem from where I'm sitting is the recommendations of the Standards Committee need to be ratified by MPs as a whole and as we've seen the "motivated self interest" of some MPs may cause them to dissent from the decisions of the Standards Committee.

    However, the old quis custodiet, ipsos custodes (Please correct me, classics scholars, if required) principle does come to mind.

    To be honest, does anyone believe the recall would have reached the numbers and even if it had, would the Conservatives be in any serious danger of losing the seat where Paterson is hanging on by his fingertips to a 23,000 majority (50% more than Chesham & Amersham)?
    I am sure he would have held his seat but that does not excuse today's events
    You are assuming, probably rightly, to be fair, that the Executive of the Conservative Association would not be honourable people.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634

    Thinking back to when I briefly claimed JSA (as UC was then called), I remember the ferocious warnings given to claimants who failed to declare income in order to reduce the effective tax rate of 80-90%. People who "forgot" to mention £100 of earnings would be subject to criminals sanctions, with very little sympathy from anyone.

    Conservatives have now voted to protect a colleague who received exactly 1000 times that from private companies and was then found by an all-party committee to have broken the rules on lobbying.

    Having a large majority and a polling lead is encouraging the Government to think it can get away with anything. I suspect that will turn out not to be true for much longer.

    Nick, I asked earlier, and no one replied, is there anything here that looks potentially like criminality rather than unparliamentary behaviour.

    Bearing in mind some Labour MPs did jail time for the expenses scandal. Is being paid to ask questions in the house unlawful? Genuine question.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    FPT

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    Would like to s
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    The entire school is insane


    Miss Moorehead
    @MissMooreheadCV
    · Nov 1
    P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV @MissMcGroryCV.

    How old are these kids? 6? Maybe 7?

    https://twitter.com/MissMooreheadCV/status/1455205389281239041?s=20

    I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.

    Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen

    You have to wonder how mad it might get
    2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
    The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure

    Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-

    For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
    It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
    As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
    It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe

    And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores

    It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it



    Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.

    It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.

    Woke fulfills a need for religion, in the same way that climate change activism does. But it doesn't do much more than that. The problem with the analogy is that, when you really go in to it, as a belief system it is completely empty. There is no coherent and inclusive system of meaning and purpose; such that exists within Christianity and Islam, for instance.
    I still don't know what "woke" means. Perhaps since you have really gone into it, you can help me out?
    Do you know what pornography is? What’s the difference between a nude photo study and porn?
    I think you DO know what woke is, but wish to suggest it doesn’t exist as it is not easy to define simply.
    My example is a student requesting I not use the term ‘men’ when discussing the science of prostate cancer. To me, only men have a prostate, but I suspect I could get into hot water by saying this.
    But women do have a prostate gland too, much as men have mammaries (and are at some risk of breast cancer).
    Not really - women do not have a prostate, rather there are tissues which are sometimes called the female prostate, but but known as Skenes glands. Prostate cancer is driven by testosterone, which is crucial in prostate tissue.
    Breast cancer is a different kettle of fish, both men and women have breast tissue, and can indeed get breast cancer.
    Genuine question - is there any part of the human body that *can't* develop cancer?
    I must admit I have never heard of a muscle cancer so I assume the heart cannot get cancer. I may well prove to be wrong there though.
    Yep. It's rare but rhabdomyosarcomas do occur in the heart.

    https://www.scielo.br/j/rbccv/a/ky98MsZTCBLJk7jkXWJYd4c/?lang=en#:~:text=Cardiac rhabdomyosarcoma is an aggressive,in bilateral atrioventricular valve obstruction.
This discussion has been closed.