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Can Ministers meet the high expectations of the booster jab roll out? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 19 in General
imageCan Ministers meet the high expectations of the booster jab roll out? – politicalbetting.com

Several of the papers this morning are making the roll out of the booster jab their main story following suggestions that this is not going quite as well as the initial vaccine programme at the start of the year.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    First
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,853

    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    Cyclefree said:


    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.

    My mum got a text from the NHS saying she was eligible a few days AFTER the 6 month mark since her 2nd jab.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,411
    Well yeah. Got a 60 year old friend boosted on Friday.
    My 80 yo Mother. Crickets.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,749
    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,793
    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    I doubt it will make any significant dent in long-term life expectancy.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,853

    Cyclefree said:


    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.

    My mum got a text from the NHS saying she was eligible a few days AFTER the 6 month mark since her 2nd jab.
    Only 5 days to go then .......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,504
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
    And so long as people get booster shots most years (likely bundled with the flu vaccine), it will be of no greater concern than the flu.

    But we do need to make sure that people get booster shots sooner rather than later. We have no issue with supply - let's make sure that *everyone* who got jabbed six months or so ago (and particularly if it was with AZ) is able to get a booster shot. Some won't take it, and that's fine, but most people will, and those people will get supercharged protection.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,105
    Cyclefree said:


    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.

    Mrs Gadfly and I both received texts from our local medical practice yesterday, inviting us to book our Pfizer boosters on 30 October. We received our 2nd jabs on 28 April.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,260
    It'd be nice if we just had the weather to chat over.
    This virus seems to be protean compared, say, to smallpox and polio.
    Do the experts know why?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,793
    edited October 20
    All the older people I know have already had a booster jab without having to wait more than a few days. I'm surprised there's a problem elsewhere but obviously there is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JS, I wonder if this is a timing matter (ie we're waiting for the six month gap rather than going ahead more rapidly, as per longer 1st to 2nd shot intervals than any other countries opted for).
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    Whatever it is you know not to trust a Sun front page .
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 987

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JS, I wonder if this is a timing matter (ie we're waiting for the six month gap rather than going ahead more rapidly, as per longer 1st to 2nd shot intervals than any other countries opted for).

    6 months is still the gap they are going for.

    I think it's a combination of factors at the moment:

    - Some areas get supply more than others so that can affect how quickly they can get jabs into arms.

    - Running both the largest Flu campaign in a long time along with Boosters is causing issues administratively and in terms of resources.

    - I think there is some element of people not bothering with Boosters or delaying it for now. The government has and continues to downplay the situation with Covid, that does have an impact on people.

    But this can all be turned around.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    Good morning everyone. Back to the world today, and it's not, weather-wise a very welcoming one. If we hadn't caught covid two or three weeks ago we'd have had our boosters. I've had a text but Mrs C hasn't.

    I think we've got to wait a few days before we have the boosters, but I'll be making inquiries shortly.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 858
    Andy_JS said:

    All the older people I know have already had a booster jab without having to wait more than a few days. I'm surprised there's a problem elsewhere but obviously there is.

    Gadfly said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.

    Mrs Gadfly and I both received texts from our local medical practice yesterday, inviting us to book our Pfizer boosters on 30 October. We received our 2nd jabs on 28 April.
    Are these two observations connected? Is it simply the case that some GP surgeries are still offering jabs (and so they are being done on time) whereas others are redirecting all their patients to mass vax centres (the bureaucracy behind which has gone to Hell in a handcart?)

    Elsewhere, I notice that the drumbeat for rules and restrictions and house arrest is getting started all over again. The Government can try, but whether they'll obtain enough compliance from a thoroughly fed-up populace for what many will (probably rightly) fear as the start of an endless cycle of such interventions, to "save the NHS" for six months of every year for the rest of time, is another matter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,104
    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,104

    Good morning everyone. Back to the world today, and it's not, weather-wise a very welcoming one. If we hadn't caught covid two or three weeks ago we'd have had our boosters. I've had a text but Mrs C hasn't.

    I think we've got to wait a few days before we have the boosters, but I'll be making inquiries shortly.

    Wasn’t it three months with the original vaccine?

    But hopefully the disease itself will provide at least a temporary immune booster. Glad to hear you’re both recovered.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone. Back to the world today, and it's not, weather-wise a very welcoming one. If we hadn't caught covid two or three weeks ago we'd have had our boosters. I've had a text but Mrs C hasn't.

    I think we've got to wait a few days before we have the boosters, but I'll be making inquiries shortly.

    Wasn’t it three months with the original vaccine?

    But hopefully the disease itself will provide at least a temporary immune booster. Glad to hear you’re both recovered.
    Thanks; and don't think it's that long, but things are always changing!

    Are you on half-term yet? Grandson One is, but his wife isn't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,852
    dixiedean said:

    Well yeah. Got a 60 year old friend boosted on Friday.
    My 80 yo Mother. Crickets.

    Chase
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,104

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone. Back to the world today, and it's not, weather-wise a very welcoming one. If we hadn't caught covid two or three weeks ago we'd have had our boosters. I've had a text but Mrs C hasn't.

    I think we've got to wait a few days before we have the boosters, but I'll be making inquiries shortly.

    Wasn’t it three months with the original vaccine?

    But hopefully the disease itself will provide at least a temporary immune booster. Glad to hear you’re both recovered.
    Thanks; and don't think it's that long, but things are always changing!

    Are you on half-term yet? Grandson One is, but his wife isn't.
    Next week. This week might have been better as everyone is exhausted (the children look half asleep and the staff are no better) but equally it looks a very long, tough run in to Christmas even with half term this late.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,852
    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    Fantastic. Good you are only charging for treatment costs (which are cheap) and not system costs (which are not)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    I was never in the "it's no worse than flu" brigade, but I do think it might be instructive to have daily flu updates too, if we keep daily covid updates. Even the current figures are in line with a bad flu season, I would think? Of course, the current figures may get much worse before they get better, but comparison would help give some context.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,403
    Selebian said:

    I was never in the "it's no worse than flu" brigade, but I do think it might be instructive to have daily flu updates too, if we keep daily covid updates. Even the current figures are in line with a bad flu season, I would think? Of course, the current figures may get much worse before they get better, but comparison would help give some context.

    The Covid dashboard is an excellent innovation this pandemic. I agree it should be expanded to other diseases and areas too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,104
    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    To be blunt, and speaking as somebody who actually fits two of those categories, I would favour forcing such people to pay for treatment arising out of those conditions/hobbies. Actions and choices to have consequences. I am aware politicians would not.

    But - crucial but, and the reason why this is urgent - what we’re talking about is avoiding another round of restrictions due to rapid spread of the virus among people who are unvaccinated. Extreme sports might cause death or injury to one or two people when they go wrong. Viruses, on the other hand…

    This is also incidentally why I thought schoolchildren should have been vaccinated last summer even though I could see compelling arguments on the other side. It’s clear, whatever the lies of UCL, that the primary vector of transmission is in schools and therefore breaking that chain would have made a considerable difference now.

    It will never happen of course. Too many politicians promise us we can have all we like and no bad things will follow.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone. Back to the world today, and it's not, weather-wise a very welcoming one. If we hadn't caught covid two or three weeks ago we'd have had our boosters. I've had a text but Mrs C hasn't.

    I think we've got to wait a few days before we have the boosters, but I'll be making inquiries shortly.

    Wasn’t it three months with the original vaccine?

    But hopefully the disease itself will provide at least a temporary immune booster. Glad to hear you’re both recovered.
    Thanks; and don't think it's that long, but things are always changing!

    Are you on half-term yet? Grandson One is, but his wife isn't.
    Next week. This week might have been better as everyone is exhausted (the children look half asleep and the staff are no better) but equally it looks a very long, tough run in to Christmas even with half term this late.
    Grandson One, who teaches primary has a two week half term break. Granddaughter-in-law teaches secondary. We hope to see them, and get a report, in the next few days.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,932
    Regarding our recent discussions about hydrogen as a fuel, this is why the oil companies are so keen on 'blue hydrogen' -
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/20/planned-fossil-fuel-output-vastly-exceeds-climate-limits-says-un
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,932
    edited October 20
    Selebian said:

    I was never in the "it's no worse than flu" brigade, but I do think it might be instructive to have daily flu updates too, if we keep daily covid updates. Even the current figures are in line with a bad flu season, I would think? Of course, the current figures may get much worse before they get better, but comparison would help give some context.

    How many does flu put in intensive care for weeks at a time, though ?
    That's why the NHS is a bit panicked for this winter.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    If anyone is struggling to get a booster, then apparently calling 119 can help. @MikeSmithson
  • At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    Prioritise people who need treatment for other things.

    Deprioritise unvaccinated Covid patients in the same way liver transplants don't go to alcoholics who are still drinking.

    Treat unvaccinated Covid patients if we have enough slack in the system to be able to treat them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    edited October 20
    Selebian said:

    I was never in the "it's no worse than flu" brigade, but I do think it might be instructive to have daily flu updates too, if we keep daily covid updates. Even the current figures are in line with a bad flu season, I would think? Of course, the current figures may get much worse before they get better, but comparison would help give some context.

    The problem with measuring flu is that it is a modelled disease. We don't have a mass testing programme so when you here "x thousand died of flu last winter" that's not based on x thousand positive test results but on a much smaller figure.

    Even people sick in hospital with flu like symptoms aren't guaranteed to get tested.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    edited October 20
    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,407

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The English seem to believe that actions don't have consequences. Perhaps because certain prominent politicians have been telling them that since 2016.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 858
    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    Nothing. Three problems:

    1. If you take the Italian approach and clamp down really hard, all you'll get is masses of refusers demanding to be kept on benefits because they can't work, accompanied by endless sob stories about them (and especially their children) going cold and hungry
    2. House arrest for refusers, which would keep them effectively segregated from the rest of the population, can't be enforced because there are far too many of them
    3. The nanosecond you start to discriminate against the refusers there will be an absolute shitstorm about racism, because disproportionate numbers of them are black

    As much as large swathes of the public would be delighted to see the stubborn buggers receive a good shoeing, it ain't going to happen.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,399
    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    It's an issue, but a mistake to see it as the sole problem, and there are relatively painless things the Government could do. For a start, make vaccinations available to everyone, including children of any school age, and have a systematic drive to vaccinate in schools. Secondly, recommend working from home through the winter to reduce contact - some employers are doing this, some aren't, and there is no clear guidance that I'm aware of. Third, encourage mandatory mask-wearing on public transport and in shops and public events - yes, it's a nuisance, but a minor one, and we're the only country in Western Europe where this isn't still the norm.

    None of these things will eliminate the issue of anti-vaxxers, and I do favour vaccine passports for anything involving crowds, but they will chip away at the problem in relatively easy ways so it becomes less intimidating.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    Meanwhile some senior execs at my large cap employer have continued to pressure people back into the office even as they await boosters, with daily clipboard rounds to keep a check on who is where.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    You're making up facts that aren't true.

    On 20/10/20 the seven-day rolling average of deaths was over 200 already and exponentially growing so it was over 400 by early November.

    Its been flattish at around 120-140 for two months now. So it was true that we were ahead of last year but only because last years figures were suppressed. We've now crossed over already to the point whereby our deaths are lower than they were this time last year.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,389

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    Boosters might help reduce rising cases, as might mandatory vaccine passports and making facemasks mandatory in shops and on public transport again beyond the tube. However there is no evidence death rates are rising to the same extent. The fact most Britons are double vaccinated is still keeping Covid death rates down.

    As even the BBC news reports this morning 'UK cases have been rising sharply but deaths are well below the winter peak.'


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58976577
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    Not every anti vaxxer will be hospitalised from covid. But plenty will. I know one. Circa 40, frequent marathon runner etc… it very nearly did for him.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,399
    Cyclefree said:


    Second.

    And good night.

    PS I'd like to get my booster too. This coming weekend it is 6 months since my 2nd jab but NHS website says I'm not eligible.

    I think the webiste specifically checks the 6 months, so try again on Sunday?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    Not every anti vaxxer will be hospitalised from covid. But plenty will. I know one. Circa 40, frequent marathon runner etc… it very nearly did for him.
    Yes sure - you don't need to convince me! I'm a vaccine-advocate and think my friend is taking unnecessary risks with his health. And his family's because he has influenced them with his nutty ideas.

    However, that doesn't mean that I'm in favour of vaccine compulsion by the state.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    edited October 20
    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    Not every anti vaxxer will be hospitalised from covid. But plenty will. I know one. Circa 40, frequent marathon runner etc… it very nearly did for him.
    Antivaccers are generally loons. We made the mistake of asking neighbours if they had been vaccinated.. they fit the category of loon v well.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,161
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    I know people who are not antivaxxers - they are in favour of other vaccines - but are not yet vaccinated. Young people who say "maybe I prefer to get immunity from being infected". Now I think that's reckless, and I also think we have some collective responsibility to try and reduce pressure on healthcare, but I also think it's not a totally unreasonable position.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    It's an issue, but a mistake to see it as the sole problem, and there are relatively painless things the Government could do. For a start, make vaccinations available to everyone, including children of any school age, and have a systematic drive to vaccinate in schools. Secondly, recommend working from home through the winter to reduce contact - some employers are doing this, some aren't, and there is no clear guidance that I'm aware of. Third, encourage mandatory mask-wearing on public transport and in shops and public events - yes, it's a nuisance, but a minor one, and we're the only country in Western Europe where this isn't still the norm.

    None of these things will eliminate the issue of anti-vaxxers, and I do favour vaccine passports for anything involving crowds, but they will chip away at the problem in relatively easy ways so it becomes less intimidating.
    The government were wrong to vacillate about the vaccinating of children for so long, they should have overruled the scientists much earlier. I favoured Covid passports, not so much as a way of controlling infection but as a way to incentivise those not vaccinated. I still do.

    I do think we will find the NHS struggling to cope in a couple of months if infections stay at their current rate. All we can hope is that this wave is near the peak and will be declining by then. Measures to reduce infection now, however, may not be a good idea if it means more infections later.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    kamski said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    I know people who are not antivaxxers - they are in favour of other vaccines - but are not yet vaccinated. Young people who say "maybe I prefer to get immunity from being infected". Now I think that's reckless, and I also think we have some collective responsibility to try and reduce pressure on healthcare, but I also think it's not a totally unreasonable position.
    Hmm. May depend on how you define unreasonable. Even the young should, I think, come to the conclusion that the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of catching Covid even for them. Does simply apathy and laziness play a part?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743
    kamski said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    I know people who are not antivaxxers - they are in favour of other vaccines - but are not yet vaccinated. Young people who say "maybe I prefer to get immunity from being infected". Now I think that's reckless, and I also think we have some collective responsibility to try and reduce pressure on healthcare, but I also think it's not a totally unreasonable position.
    It’s pretty bone headed when you look at the relative risks of each route to antibodies. I hate the moral hazard inherent in the NHS, from people taking no care of their health and then free riding on the rest of us. There’s no clearer example of this than the Covid anti vaxxer that still expects me to pay my share of their treatment when they need hospital.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    edited October 20
    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
  • Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,173
    edited October 20

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    Prioritise people who need treatment for other things.

    Deprioritise unvaccinated Covid patients in the same way liver transplants don't go to alcoholics who are still drinking.

    Treat unvaccinated Covid patients if we have enough slack in the system to be able to treat them.
    Unvaccinated people are an infection risk, so implement vaccine passports for access to hospitals.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,399
    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    Not every anti vaxxer will be hospitalised from covid. But plenty will. I know one. Circa 40, frequent marathon runner etc… it very nearly did for him.
    Yeah, that's like the "my granfather smoked till he was 96 and then he was run over by a bus" reasoning - nobody says that everyone who gets Covid dies or suffers serious consequences, but plenty do. One can play Russian roulette (once) with an 84% chance of no consequences whatever, but that doesn't make it a good idea, I'm glad for your friend's family but it's bonkers all the same.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,164

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    It's an issue, but a mistake to see it as the sole problem, and there are relatively painless things the Government could do. For a start, make vaccinations available to everyone, including children of any school age, and have a systematic drive to vaccinate in schools. Secondly, recommend working from home through the winter to reduce contact - some employers are doing this, some aren't, and there is no clear guidance that I'm aware of. Third, encourage mandatory mask-wearing on public transport and in shops and public events - yes, it's a nuisance, but a minor one, and we're the only country in Western Europe where this isn't still the norm.

    None of these things will eliminate the issue of anti-vaxxers, and I do favour vaccine passports for anything involving crowds, but they will chip away at the problem in relatively easy ways so it becomes less intimidating.
    "including children of any school age"

    Has any vaccine been approved yet for 5-11? I know Pfizer have put in for approval to US and other authorities, but has it been okayed for any yet?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis of the liver then they'll only get on the transplant list if they give up alcohol.
    The obese are made to jump through all sorts of hoops if they wish to get bariatric surgery or similar.

    And so on.

    Liberty means having the right to make your own choices, it doesn't mean those choices being consequence-free.

    If the unvaccinated have to face consequences for their choices then that's their own choice.
    ..and boy do they resent it...
  • DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207

    Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    Or better than Google it, go and look at the actual data.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 192, 7 day average 190.6
    image
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,239
    edited October 20
    Stocky said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
    I think @RochdalePioneers attitude that everywhere else is dealing with this better and England is ruled by ' idiots' says more about his political attitudes than reality

    Here in North Wales mask wearing has virtually disappeared, evidenced only in medical environments and on some transport despite the Welsh government mandates, and to be honest who is going to enforce these regulations

    Mask wearing is apparently higher in Scotland but their rates are rising

    The details of who is catching covid now, hospital numbers and deaths are the key and as far as I am aware this is affecting the young and before we have another pop at HMG let us not forget it was the JCVI who did not give the green light to vaccinate the young earlier, and it was only when that was overturned the four administration commenced vaccinating

    I really worry that JCVI ruled out vaccinating the young as they wanted our vaccines to be used elsewhere, and it was a political decision by them
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
    If it is a choice and supply led I think that there is a good argument for prioritising school kids who are unvaccinated over those getting boosters but I rather thought that we were past supply issues now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    My wife and I are going to Switzerland before Xmas this year to visit her family, we're both eligible for first doses there so I think we're going to get them as third ones. I'm not sure how the NHS will register it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,523
    moonshine said:

    kamski said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    I know people who are not antivaxxers - they are in favour of other vaccines - but are not yet vaccinated. Young people who say "maybe I prefer to get immunity from being infected". Now I think that's reckless, and I also think we have some collective responsibility to try and reduce pressure on healthcare, but I also think it's not a totally unreasonable position.
    It’s pretty bone headed when you look at the relative risks of each route to antibodies. I hate the moral hazard inherent in the NHS, from people taking no care of their health and then free riding on the rest of us. There’s no clearer example of this than the Covid anti vaxxer that still expects me to pay my share of their treatment when they need hospital.
    We have a very good friend whose husband has been vaxxed, but she has gone down the anti-vaxxer wormhole. Very unwise as she is in her mid 60's, significantly overweight and with other health issues. It means they can't do a bunch of stuff together, but he won't put pressure on her. She knows we don't agree with her refusal, but having heard her take, we don't feel it will do any good to try to convince her to be jabbed. She is ordinarily a very caring, liberal person. She just can't see that she is being anti-social. Almost comically, she moans she can't get her knee operated on. The idea that one anti-vaxxer in hospital with Covid might mean 20 knee operations get canned as a result doesn't register.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,528
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
    And so long as people get booster shots most years (likely bundled with the flu vaccine), it will be of no greater concern than the flu.

    But we do need to make sure that people get booster shots sooner rather than later. We have no issue with supply - let's make sure that *everyone* who got jabbed six months or so ago (and particularly if it was with AZ) is able to get a booster shot. Some won't take it, and that's fine, but most people will, and those people will get supercharged protection.
    One complication worth mentioning - coming via my neighbour who is a practice nurse - is that they are not allowed to give you your booster within 2 weeks of you having had your flu jab. So a lot of practices are delaying giving flu jabs so as not to interfere with the booster shot. But it seems this is another of those decisions that is based on the local GP/Health authority so there are differences and confusion across the country.

    Another example where clear guidance on priorities would have been useful.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
    And so long as people get booster shots most years (likely bundled with the flu vaccine), it will be of no greater concern than the flu.

    But we do need to make sure that people get booster shots sooner rather than later. We have no issue with supply - let's make sure that *everyone* who got jabbed six months or so ago (and particularly if it was with AZ) is able to get a booster shot. Some won't take it, and that's fine, but most people will, and those people will get supercharged protection.
    One complication worth mentioning - coming via my neighbour who is a practice nurse - is that they are not allowed to give you your booster within 2 weeks of you having had your flu jab. So a lot of practices are delaying giving flu jabs so as not to interfere with the booster shot. But it seems this is another of those decisions that is based on the local GP/Health authority so there are differences and confusion across the country.

    Another example where clear guidance on priorities would have been useful.
    That doesn't make sense, my mum had her flu jab on the same day. They organised it that way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis of the liver then they'll only get on the transplant list if they give up alcohol.
    The obese are made to jump through all sorts of hoops if they wish to get bariatric surgery or similar.

    And so on.

    Liberty means having the right to make your own choices, it doesn't mean those choices being consequence-free.

    If the unvaccinated have to face consequences for their choices then that's their own choice.
    Those policies are different though. The reasons that alcoholics need to abstain is not a moral judgement, but rather to do with the success of the transplant. Ditto weight loss before surgery. Complication rates are much higher in patients with high BMI.

    It is impossible to turn away a pregnant woman with covid pneumonitis on the grounds she should have been vaxxed, and rightly so.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025

    Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    Or better than Google it, go and look at the actual data.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 192, 7 day average 190.6
    image
    Quite.

    I don't predict any more lockdowns but if there was it will be due to overburdening of the NHS rather than death numbers. The picture on this is clearly patchy. The media and some senior bods in the NHS will have a tendency to over-dramatise.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
    If it is a choice and supply led I think that there is a good argument for prioritising school kids who are unvaccinated over those getting boosters but I rather thought that we were past supply issues now.
    Well past. We've got a mega surplus.
  • Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    Using one days figures seems strange
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
    If it is a choice and supply led I think that there is a good argument for prioritising school kids who are unvaccinated over those getting boosters but I rather thought that we were past supply issues now.
    The other odd thing is that there seems no intention to give second doses to the youngsters. I don't know why.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025

    moonshine said:

    kamski said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    Whilst that is undoubtedly a part of the response the problem is that the unvaccinated are clogging up our hospitals and preventing us from getting treatment for other things. What do we do about that consequence of their selfishness and stupidity?
    I wrote a part serious/part humorous header a while back about an anti-vaxxer friend. A deep-state conspiracy theorist. He still hasn't had the vaccine and neither has his wife or two children.

    Three weeks ago we heard that his wife and one child were mildly ill, took home LFTs and both came up positive. Their illnesses, like most, were very mild and they are fully recovered. They felt lethargic for four or five days and lost their taste and smell. The husband and other child were never infected or ill (they periodically took LFTs) (just luck as they took no precautions).

    This experience has merely served to bolster the husband's resolve to not be vaccinated.
    I know people who are not antivaxxers - they are in favour of other vaccines - but are not yet vaccinated. Young people who say "maybe I prefer to get immunity from being infected". Now I think that's reckless, and I also think we have some collective responsibility to try and reduce pressure on healthcare, but I also think it's not a totally unreasonable position.
    It’s pretty bone headed when you look at the relative risks of each route to antibodies. I hate the moral hazard inherent in the NHS, from people taking no care of their health and then free riding on the rest of us. There’s no clearer example of this than the Covid anti vaxxer that still expects me to pay my share of their treatment when they need hospital.
    We have a very good friend whose husband has been vaxxed, but she has gone down the anti-vaxxer wormhole. Very unwise as she is in her mid 60's, significantly overweight and with other health issues. It means they can't do a bunch of stuff together, but he won't put pressure on her. She knows we don't agree with her refusal, but having heard her take, we don't feel it will do any good to try to convince her to be jabbed. She is ordinarily a very caring, liberal person. She just can't see that she is being anti-social. Almost comically, she moans she can't get her knee operated on. The idea that one anti-vaxxer in hospital with Covid might mean 20 knee operations get canned as a result doesn't register.
    What is "her take"?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
    If it is a choice and supply led I think that there is a good argument for prioritising school kids who are unvaccinated over those getting boosters but I rather thought that we were past supply issues now.
    The other odd thing is that there seems no intention to give second doses to the youngsters. I don't know why.
    It's really stupid.
  • DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    Saying 'idiots in government is not politicising it ?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743
    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis of the liver then they'll only get on the transplant list if they give up alcohol.
    The obese are made to jump through all sorts of hoops if they wish to get bariatric surgery or similar.

    And so on.

    Liberty means having the right to make your own choices, it doesn't mean those choices being consequence-free.

    If the unvaccinated have to face consequences for their choices then that's their own choice.
    Those policies are different though. The reasons that alcoholics need to abstain is not a moral judgement, but rather to do with the success of the transplant. Ditto weight loss before surgery. Complication rates are much higher in patients with high BMI.

    It is impossible to turn away a pregnant woman with covid pneumonitis on the grounds she should have been vaxxed, and rightly so.
    That’s because the unborn child didn’t refuse the vaccine. But I get pretty fed up when I know of life saving surgery being continually delayed, in large part right now because of anti vaxxer bed blockers.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,528
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
    And so long as people get booster shots most years (likely bundled with the flu vaccine), it will be of no greater concern than the flu.

    But we do need to make sure that people get booster shots sooner rather than later. We have no issue with supply - let's make sure that *everyone* who got jabbed six months or so ago (and particularly if it was with AZ) is able to get a booster shot. Some won't take it, and that's fine, but most people will, and those people will get supercharged protection.
    One complication worth mentioning - coming via my neighbour who is a practice nurse - is that they are not allowed to give you your booster within 2 weeks of you having had your flu jab. So a lot of practices are delaying giving flu jabs so as not to interfere with the booster shot. But it seems this is another of those decisions that is based on the local GP/Health authority so there are differences and confusion across the country.

    Another example where clear guidance on priorities would have been useful.
    That doesn't make sense, my mum had her flu jab on the same day. They organised it that way.
    As I said it is clear the guidance is confused. But the same has happened with my Mum in another county where they delayed her flu jab by 2 weeks because it was originally scheduled for a couple of days before her booster.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    edited October 20

    Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    They are not death rates - they are death numbers. There are far more infections now - oodles of harmless/mild ones which dramatically reduce the death rate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    I have problems with my lungs and prolonged mask wearing really doesn't help but I would ask again, what are you trying to achieve with them? What is the point of preventing infections now if people are inevitably going to get infected later? It seems to me, with far fewer deaths thankfully, we are now back where we were in the early stages of the pandemic. We are all likely to catch this at some point and a percentage will be seriously ill, particularly if they are not vaccinated. The priority is to ensure that too many of us do not become ill at the same time causing a crisis in the health service. We are back to flattening the curve.

    We need to watch the number being admitted very carefully and be aware that even steps to reduce infection are going to have a lag of several weeks before they impact hospital admissions. Is the current level of infections enough to ring that alarm bell? It's getting close, I will admit that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477

    Stocky said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
    I think @RochdalePioneers attitude that everywhere else is dealing with this better and England is ruled by ' idiots' says more about his political attitudes than reality

    Here in North Wales mask wearing has virtually disappeared, evidenced only in medical environments and on some transport despite the Welsh government mandates, and to be honest who is going to enforce these regulations

    Mask wearing is apparently higher in Scotland but their rates are rising

    The details of who is catching covid now, hospital numbers and deaths are the key and as far as I am aware this is affecting the young and before we have another pop at HMG let us not forget it was the JCVI who did not give the green light to vaccinate the young earlier, and it was only when that was overturned the four administration commenced vaccinating

    I really worry that JCVI ruled out vaccinating the young as they wanted our vaccines to be used elsewhere, and it was a political decision by them
    Scientists advise, Politicians decide.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940

    Stocky said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
    I think @RochdalePioneers attitude that everywhere else is dealing with this better and England is ruled by ' idiots' says more about his political attitudes than reality
    There's a lot of that on #FBPE Twitter where advocates of greater restrictions point to UK figures then quietly slide into "England" suggesting that if only England implemented the restrictions still in place in Scotland/Wales (with higher case rates) then all would be fine.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    Worth revisiting that excess death chart. It's the under 65s now that are dying:

    https://twitter.com/ActuaryByDay/status/1447958785159581696?t=maHIKWs0DsKIdZYgdIR2UQ&s=19
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
    I think @RochdalePioneers attitude that everywhere else is dealing with this better and England is ruled by ' idiots' says more about his political attitudes than reality

    Here in North Wales mask wearing has virtually disappeared, evidenced only in medical environments and on some transport despite the Welsh government mandates, and to be honest who is going to enforce these regulations

    Mask wearing is apparently higher in Scotland but their rates are rising

    The details of who is catching covid now, hospital numbers and deaths are the key and as far as I am aware this is affecting the young and before we have another pop at HMG let us not forget it was the JCVI who did not give the green light to vaccinate the young earlier, and it was only when that was overturned the four administration commenced vaccinating

    I really worry that JCVI ruled out vaccinating the young as they wanted our vaccines to be used elsewhere, and it was a political decision by them
    Scientists advise, Politicians decide.
    Yes but be fair - you have to wait for their advice.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,481
    BBC reports that: "NHS England chief executive Amanda Pritchard told MPs on Tuesday that "there is no delay" in sending out invitations for booster jabs, blaming people for being slow in coming forward for their third dose."


    Yet, Mike's experience seems to contradict this?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,025
    Foxy said:

    Worth revisiting that excess death chart. It's the under 65s now that are dying:

    https://twitter.com/ActuaryByDay/status/1447958785159581696?t=maHIKWs0DsKIdZYgdIR2UQ&s=19

    With a higher proportion of oldies fully vaccinated this was bound the be the case wasn't it?
  • IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    It's endemic. Not going anywhere. Learning to live with it does not mean you don't care!

    What do you mean about death rates being higher? They are much much lower due to the vaccines.
    I think @RochdalePioneers attitude that everywhere else is dealing with this better and England is ruled by ' idiots' says more about his political attitudes than reality

    Here in North Wales mask wearing has virtually disappeared, evidenced only in medical environments and on some transport despite the Welsh government mandates, and to be honest who is going to enforce these regulations

    Mask wearing is apparently higher in Scotland but their rates are rising

    The details of who is catching covid now, hospital numbers and deaths are the key and as far as I am aware this is affecting the young and before we have another pop at HMG let us not forget it was the JCVI who did not give the green light to vaccinate the young earlier, and it was only when that was overturned the four administration commenced vaccinating

    I really worry that JCVI ruled out vaccinating the young as they wanted our vaccines to be used elsewhere, and it was a political decision by them
    Scientists advise, Politicians decide.
    Easy to say but would you really go against their advice

    Certainly none of Boris, Sturgeon, Drakeford or Foster did
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    My MiL, who is 85, was given her booster a week past Monday. She and many other elderly people were left queuing outside for over an hour as a result of the chaotic system. The vaccination centre has moved from the main City Hall to a disused shop (of which there are many) and it simply did not have the capacity to deal with the numbers invited. More than a week later she has not fully recovered.

    In the first waves of the vaccines resources seemed almost unlimited with everything being thrown at it. This doesn't feel like that, its a bit half hearted.

    While doing a speedy job on school children looks like ScotGov's Booster program has slipped:

    The timeline for Covid-19 booster vaccinations in Scotland appears to have been quietly changed. Last month over-50s were told they could book appointments from October. But now saying bookings won't open until mid-November.

    https://twitter.com/newsandpics/status/1450392869550936067?s=20
    If it is a choice and supply led I think that there is a good argument for prioritising school kids who are unvaccinated over those getting boosters but I rather thought that we were past supply issues now.
    The other odd thing is that there seems no intention to give second doses to the youngsters. I don't know why.
    Is that not a timing issue? The kids won't be due a second jab until early in the new year.
  • Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    Using one days figures seems strange
    I'm not. I'm taking yesterday as a snapshot. You could take any day in any week for several months before that and get the same result. For all that "we don't need to worry as the death rate is low" the death rate last summer was almost completely gone.

    https://www.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743

    BBC reports that: "NHS England chief executive Amanda Pritchard told MPs on Tuesday that "there is no delay" in sending out invitations for booster jabs, blaming people for being slow in coming forward for their third dose."


    Yet, Mike's experience seems to contradict this?

    Amanda Pritchard is clearly just another chocco teapot in a kitchen cupboard full of them then isn’t she.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Before any form of official lockdown, including wearing these vile masks in classrooms, the government should announce that anyone who has been eligible for the vaccine and failed to get it for reasons other than isolation at time of appointment or medical guidance will henceforth be charged for the cost of any and all Covid treatment they receive, in advance, or only pain relief will be provided.

    Actions have consequences. If they wish to avoid being vaccinated, that’s their right, but it’s not their right to be dog in the manger with the rest of us.

    How about:
    Alcoholics
    Drug users
    The obese
    Smokers
    Extreme sports enthusiasts
    Parents of children with congenital conditions due to marrying their cousin

    I don't have a moral problem with vaccine passports for the short term (although I think there are practical issues) but what you suggest would be, I fear, the thin edge of a very nasty wedge.

    I'd instead favour not locking down - the consequence of not being vaccinated is that the rest of the country will no longer put life on hold to help you.
    If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis of the liver then they'll only get on the transplant list if they give up alcohol.
    The obese are made to jump through all sorts of hoops if they wish to get bariatric surgery or similar.

    And so on.

    Liberty means having the right to make your own choices, it doesn't mean those choices being consequence-free.

    If the unvaccinated have to face consequences for their choices then that's their own choice.
    Those policies are different though. The reasons that alcoholics need to abstain is not a moral judgement, but rather to do with the success of the transplant. Ditto weight loss before surgery. Complication rates are much higher in patients with high BMI.

    It is impossible to turn away a pregnant woman with covid pneumonitis on the grounds she should have been vaxxed, and rightly so.
    That’s because the unborn child didn’t refuse the vaccine. But I get pretty fed up when I know of life saving surgery being continually delayed, in large part right now because of anti vaxxer bed blockers.
    Sure, and there is understandable resentment. Mrs Foxy has refused redeployment to ICU and this was one of the factors, the others being her experiences there earlier in the year. One of the advantages of ZHC, her colleagues couldn't refuse.
  • DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    Saying 'idiots in government is not politicising it ?
    When the government either refuse to listen to the experts or openly contradict them you have to ask if it is idiocy. Not just medical experts, their response to industry bods in a variety of industries is the same.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,834
    edited October 20

    Several people (predictable who...) have piled straight in with me either "making it up" or saying I am wrong.

    Incorrect.

    19/10/20. Daily deaths 80, 7 day average 122
    19/10/21. Daily deaths 223, 7 day average 130

    Just Google it. This time last year we were at the foot of what turned out to be a double-peaked mountain of cases and deaths. This time we have protection from an (ageing) vaccine, more deaths and case rates +150%.

    We won't see the death rate as high as last year. But it will go shooting up, as will the deaths of people not treated by an NHS which is "right on the edge" already.

    So, back to the Sun front page. Good for The Sun. Someone needs to be shouting at people to both get their 1st round (as we're lagging on that measure) and boosters.

    Using one days figures seems strange
    Er... Rochdale included the 7 day average, surely?
  • DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    Saying 'idiots in government is not politicising it ?
    When the government either refuse to listen to the experts or openly contradict them you have to ask if it is idiocy. Not just medical experts, their response to industry bods in a variety of industries is the same.

    You need balance in criticism and the delayed rollout for the young was entirely the fault of JCVI to which all four leaders followed

    I do not hear your attacks on anyone other than Boris
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,481

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Get fucking boosting, Boris

    Because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    This virus is gonna be with us forever, like a very nasty flu. It will reduce life expectancy across the world.

    This is the new normal. And the only way through is vaccines

    Hmm, the University of Leeds expert they quote's twitter feed is full of comments about "English exceptionalism" and "Brexshit", and he thinks it's "criminal" to allow young people to catch the virus.
    That may be so, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The virus is here to stay. It will be a new but normal risk. And it will kill thousands every year
    And so long as people get booster shots most years (likely bundled with the flu vaccine), it will be of no greater concern than the flu.

    But we do need to make sure that people get booster shots sooner rather than later. We have no issue with supply - let's make sure that *everyone* who got jabbed six months or so ago (and particularly if it was with AZ) is able to get a booster shot. Some won't take it, and that's fine, but most people will, and those people will get supercharged protection.
    One complication worth mentioning - coming via my neighbour who is a practice nurse - is that they are not allowed to give you your booster within 2 weeks of you having had your flu jab. So a lot of practices are delaying giving flu jabs so as not to interfere with the booster shot. But it seems this is another of those decisions that is based on the local GP/Health authority so there are differences and confusion across the country.

    Another example where clear guidance on priorities would have been useful.
    That doesn't make sense, my mum had her flu jab on the same day. They organised it that way.
    As I said it is clear the guidance is confused. But the same has happened with my Mum in another county where they delayed her flu jab by 2 weeks because it was originally scheduled for a couple of days before her booster.
    WTF? If this is happening in more than a few odd postcodes then ministers need to act NOW!

    iirc the jab boost has been cleared for use in parallel with flu jab.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    I have problems with my lungs and prolonged mask wearing really doesn't help but I would ask again, what are you trying to achieve with them? What is the point of preventing infections now if people are inevitably going to get infected later? It seems to me, with far fewer deaths thankfully, we are now back where we were in the early stages of the pandemic. We are all likely to catch this at some point and a percentage will be seriously ill, particularly if they are not vaccinated. The priority is to ensure that too many of us do not become ill at the same time causing a crisis in the health service. We are back to flattening the curve.

    We need to watch the number being admitted very carefully and be aware that even steps to reduce infection are going to have a lag of several weeks before they impact hospital admissions. Is the current level of infections enough to ring that alarm bell? It's getting close, I will admit that.
    Indeed - and that is my point. We are +150% on cases vs the same week last year and ahead on deaths. Last year the death rate and case rates were taking off like a rocket. We know the winter is a Bad Time hence The Sun imploring people to get boosters - good for The Sun.

    As for masks there are always exemptions and if you struggle to breathe though a mask then don't wear one. I'm talking in general - they help.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,528

    DavidL said:

    At which point do the idiots in the UK government actually start to Do Something? "It doesn't matter how many people get sick, very few are in hospital are dying" was the refrain from some on here. OK, now we're back to death rates above the same measure last year - can't use that excuse any more.

    The NHS managers are now clear that the catastrofuck is upon them. We absolutely need boosters because we know that the vaccine which was focused on the vulnerable and elderly to start with is much less effective now. We'll have to do more - well not we, you. It was pretty stark travelling through the Netherlands to Germany then to England and then home to Scotland. Despite the UK case rates being sky high the only place where people no longer seem to care is England.

    The difference in England during our recent trip there was stark and it is bloody miserable having masks on again in Scotland. I was in the pub last night and they were insisting everyone had to have their masks on until they were sitting down.

    Personally, I prefer the English attitude to this. This disease is not going away. We are all likely to get it eventually. We just need to ensure that as many as possible are double vaxxed plus boosted (if appropriate, timewise) when we do. Some will still get sick and some will die but life needs to go on. The current figures are not good but on one view it is better than more catch it now than when the flu season is up and running. Those countries which are deferring infections may come to regret that.
    I bloody hate masks. Like they can set off the same kind of panic attacks that had me on Sertraline for a chunk of last year. But they are needed. We're already crashing a plane of people every day and we haven't got started into the winter peak yet. If my wearing a mask helps keep someone else off today's plane thats worth the effort whether I enjoy the experience or not.

    Its interesting the divide between posters. Pretty much everyone saying "its over / its endemic / so what / live with it" are current or former Tory members/voters. This really shouldn't be a political issue.
    I think that is a pretty dumb statement. It is you who are politicising it by trying to make that claim.
This discussion has been closed.