'Here's a question: imagine the Government hears that a hundred illegal immigrants from Pakistan have been spotted in area X. The police then start stopping and searching people of Asian ethnicity (either exclusively or mostly). Does this count as racist, racial profiling, intelligence-led or all three?'
Depends whose in government.
If Labour is in government it's intelligence-led,if it's the Coalition or Tories then it's racial profiling and racist.
Don't forget xenophobic. They like throwing that one around as well.
I was amused yesterday when a certain poster who displayed sexism at a prehistoric level during the Rennard affair had the temerity to lambast others as being racist, on much less evidence.
Anyone reckon it might be possible to flip Mark Harper's constituency? It's a big majority but with Lab and Lib almost equal and Lib in third place, which should be pretty much the ideal way to get a big swing in 2015:
We`ll just have to wait for the Equalities Commission to pronounce on whether there was specific intelligence which led to the raids or not.
Indeed - but I hope that my reply helped to reassure you that the police have no motivation to waste time harassing random people re being illegals.
It's a very simple test - Yes or No. It can't even be quibbled over like being stopped for drunken driving. It requires no other evidence or proof or testimony or character refs - you either have the right to be here or you don't.
The police have many faults - I've seen them with my own eyes from the inside - but this really isn't an area where it applies much as there is no latitude for having a plod opinion that changes the actualite.
It never stopped. There's a tweet about a documentary about these operations in 2008 down the thread. We previously discussed the UKBA's guidance for these types of operations. It has guidance because its a regular activity that it has always undertaken both under Labour and Coalition governments. My only point was simply that - Labour supporters who were claiming that this was a sign of nasty,racist Tories were conveniently ignoring that it used to happen under their party too. (For the avoidance of doubt I condemn these operations whoever is in charge.)
Stella Creasy appears to have fallen into a trap of her own making on Twitter.
I asked her last night to comment on LabourList trying to intimidate Mr Messina - she didn't reply. I thought it was perfectly reasonable to ask since she's been very vocal about Twitter this week.
Today in another discussion I mentioned this and suggested that sauce for the goose didn't apply to ganders. She accused me of being moody and put words in my mouth.
I pointed out that perhaps it was my PMT or wasn't I allowed to disagree with her if I was female - she then didn't respond. I assume she thought I was male.
Twitter is most amusing at times. You can read the exchange at @platosays
It never stopped. There's a tweet about a documentary about these operations in 2008 down the thread. We previously discussed the UKBA's guidance for these types of operations. It has guidance because its a regular activity that it has always undertaken both under Labour and Coalition governments. My only point was simply that - Labour supporters who were claiming that this was a sign of nasty,racist Tories were conveniently ignoring that it used to happen under their party too. (For the avoidance of doubt I condemn these operations whoever is in charge.)
Would you condemn this operation, Neil?
It looks a bit more intelligence led than the ops at London Underground stations.
24 July 2013 [Source: UKBA website]
Eight men from Pakistan and India were arrested during an operation by our officers moments before 6 sham wedding ceremonies were due to take place at Gretna registration office on Thursday (18 July).
Acting on information that the weddings may not be genuine, immigration officers attended the registration office.
They arrested the 8 men, aged between 27 and 40, all of whom were in the UK illegally. They included 5 would be grooms and 3 guests who were due to attend the ceremonies. They had all travelled to Gretna from areas in England, including Bradford, Manchester, Southall, Blackburn and Wolverhampton.
Six of the men have been detained pending their removal from the UK, while the remaining 2 must report regularly to us while their pending immigration cases are concluded.
The intended brides from the Czech Republic, Romania and the UK were interviewed and released.
I wonder if the UKBA officers pigged out at the receptions after detaining the suspects. The single ones could even have acted honourably by stepping in at the altar to marry the Czech and Romanian girls.
Anyone reckon it might be possible to flip Mark Harper's constituency? It's a big majority but with Lab and Lib almost equal and Lib in third place, which should be pretty much the ideal way to get a big swing in 2015:
I believe in open borders so when I'm in charge those types of operations will end too (not that there would be a need for such weddings then of course).
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
I believe in open borders so when I'm in charge those types of operations will end too (not that there would be a need for such weddings then of course).
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
I do hope you're being ironic or that post manages to be sexist, insulting and nasty - a full house!
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
I do hope you're being ironic or that post manages to be sexist, insulting and nasty - a full house!
Jasper Copping @JasperCopping .@Kevin_Maguire Another candidate for "real #AlanPartridge" BBC broadcaster records own vasectomy bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod…
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
I do hope you're being ironic or that post manages to be sexist, insulting and nasty - a full house!
But also sadly very true .
Poor Mr Senior, who is the epitome of good manners of course.
Anyone reckon it might be possible to flip Mark Harper's constituency? It's a big majority but with Lab and Lib almost equal and Lib in third place, which should be pretty much the ideal way to get a big swing in 2015:
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
I do hope you're being ironic or that post manages to be sexist, insulting and nasty - a full house!
But also sadly very true .
Poor Mr Senior, who is the epitome of good manners of course.
May be true , but at least I am not an apologist for Conservative policies however repulsive they may be .
Janan Ganesh @JananGanesh People here complaining that Obama let Messina work for Tories. I'm sure the president will make sure he runs these things by you in future.
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
Man-up and name them. It would be of interest to me. Does it include any Sinhalese beating-up on your Tamil-Tiger friends...?
Isnt that one of the constituencies UKIP "won" in the locals this year? Cant have anything to do with it, can it?
I can't decide which is worse, somebody who does this kind of thing to save their job or someone like Blunkett who does it because they think it's a good idea...
Anyhow AndyJS on that thread gives the locals results as:
I am yet to see even one PBer endorse strong action on immigration without being cautious about it. I think that must be right in the main; for if the actions are too heavy handed it will have been with the right intentions. It would be naive and optimistic to think that those that would take away our freedoms doing to waving a flag and calling for a charge.
Forest of Dean is one of the constituencies the Tories won back in 2005 when Lynton Crosby ran his `Are you thinking what we are thinking? campaign.So with UKIP poised to take lumps out of the Conservatives there,it might be useful for Harper to prove his anti-immigration credentials.But am sure that din`t cross his mind at all.
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
LOL...
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
My point has been that all governments have been doing this for years. The only thing that has happened recently is that they've decided to highlight some operations as part of a dog-whistling campaign along with the moronic vans etc.
This helps them get credit for these actions (or get called racist etc for them). Clearly their calculation is that the flack is well worth it for the support it attracts (even if some of us have the suspicion that it's UKIP that tends to get boosted whenever Tory ministers go populist).
But the people giving the credit or blaming them are wrong, they've just fallen for the pr, these things happen for better or worse (obviously I would argue for worse) all the time under governments run by all three main parties.
Max, get over it. do you think you're the only person who has ever been stopped and asked for ID ?
You just don't get it. The government are trampling over our freedoms and the rule of law to possibly, maybe catch tens of illegal immigrants. That's not what I voted for, nor is it any different from what Labour were doing when they were in power, as many have pointed out.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
If they had intelligence specific to you or anyone else - they'd either not do anything as you're British or arrest you already.
I'm finding this a rather odd discussion - the whole point of trying to target places where UKBA suspect there are illegal immigrants is because they *suspect* it. If they knew, they wouldn't need to random stop anyone.
The police randomly stop cars at checkpoints and ask you to do a breath test or check your tax disc etc as part of campaigns.
Again, drinking and driving is against the law, I take no issue with coppers pulling over drivers who they think are all over the place and veering about.
The simple fact is that the government are pissing all over our country's hard won and protected freedoms and you are cheering them on, because the colour of the government is mostly blue. I can guarantee that if Labour were doing this you would be telling us all how appalling it is and that Labour have overstepped the line etc...
You have yet to answer the question, why do you support the government in abusing our freedoms like this. If they wanted to stop illegal immigration and get illegals in this country out, a scattershot aimed at London is not how to do it. Target the employers of illegal immigrants, raid all of those 17 people to a room properties in east London, target the landlords of said properties with hefty fines and jail time. Make it so unattractive in terms of being able to live and earn money here that migration to the UK illegally just isn't worth the hassle. However, all of those measures would have to be done either in secret or with very little publicity. So I know why they aren't bothering.
Stopping foreign looking people in the streets and asking them to prove they have the right to be here would be just as despicable whether done by Tory or Labour governments. Tweeting photos with #immigrationoffender hashtags, even though an arrested person is innocent until proven guilty, is just the icing on the cake. In all cases, it's about government failure.
Max, get over it. do you think you're the only person who has ever been stopped and asked for ID ?
You just don't get it. The government are trampling over our freedoms and the rule of law to possibly, maybe catch tens of illegal immigrants. That's not what I voted for, nor is it any different from what Labour were doing when they were in power, as many have pointed out.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
Tykejohnno..I was stopped twice in London, asked for ID, didn't have any.I was dressed rather scrufffily returning from a film shoot in an old abandoned building and was about to enter my very posh Apartment block in Chelsea. I obviously did not fit the profile of a tenant there altho I lived on the top floor in a very pleasant apartment...way it goes sometimes..
I'm routinely called all sorts of names - water off a ducks back - its 99% of the time from a very small number of posters who want to shut down discussion using insults as they've no other rational counter argument.
It convinces no one and shifts no votes. Why they do it is beyond me.
@Alanbrooke Don`t believe everything you read in surveys,mate...Since historical times,India has always been one of the most tolerant countries on earth...India`s problem is caste which is different from race
Max, get over it. do you think you're the only person who has ever been stopped and asked for ID ?
You just don't get it. The government are trampling over our freedoms and the rule of law to possibly, maybe catch tens of illegal immigrants. That's not what I voted for, nor is it any different from what Labour were doing when they were in power, as many have pointed out.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
With all due respect, that is bollocks. Northern Ireland was a war zone. You were not stopped because you had a certain skin colour. We don't all have to pay a price. Only those who look different do.
< Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
I'm not talking human rights bollocks. There is no legal basis in this country to carry around ID or for law enforcement officers to ask for one or for them to compel people to produce one on demand. That is British law, not ECHR, there are plenty of countries within the ECHR that have mandatory ID cards, including France, we don't. The Tories tried in the 90's Labour tried for 13 years, this time Dave and Nick campaigned against them, yet here we are with a high profile, very public campaign where foreign looking people are being targeted to produce ID on demand. Suddenly this country is starting to feel like it doesn't like people with the "wrong" colour skin, something I have never felt is an issue before.
Again, if the government were serious about catching illegal immigrants and preventing it then they would go after the wealthy business and property owners who hire and lease properties to them. That wouldn't be very public though and it wouldn't get them the headlines that they are "doing something" about illegal immigrants.
I actually posted on here I'm not bothered about the vans, I think the messaging was crass, but it hurt no one, trampling on the rights of British citizens is, however, wrong and it needs to stop.
Tykejohnno..I was stopped twice in London, asked for ID, didn't have any.I was dressed rather scrufffily returning from a film shoot in an old abandoned building and was about to enter my very posh Apartment block in Chelsea. I obviously did not fit the profile of a tenant there altho I lived on the top floor in a very pleasant apartment...way it goes sometimes..
If we're playing the Outraged of London game - I was once having tea in Claridges and the Maitre De assumed I was a prostitute and asked me to leave because I paused on the way to the Ladies to compliment a gentlemen on his choice of iced cakes.
Given that'd I'd just forked out about £150 to have tea with champers with a friend - I declined and thanked him for thinking I could charge for sex.
Max, get over it. do you think you're the only person who has ever been stopped and asked for ID ?
You just don't get it. The government are trampling over our freedoms and the rule of law to possibly, maybe catch tens of illegal immigrants. That's not what I voted for, nor is it any different from what Labour were doing when they were in power, as many have pointed out.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
With all due respect, that is bollocks. Northern Ireland was a war zone. You were not stopped because you had a certain skin colour. We don't all have to pay a price. Only those who look different do.
Was Manchester airport a war zone in the early 80s SO ? because i got stopped and luggage checked enough times as I passed through it, same for train services and boats. And if skin colour is an identifier so is accent and a passport. maybe those of us who went through it have a better idea of how it was.
It`s a form of discrimination but not necessarily racism as both the discriminator and the discriminated could belong to the same race given that there are only two predominant races in India and thousands of castes
@Alanbrooke Don`t believe everything you read in surveys,mate...Since historical times,India has always been one of the most tolerant countries on earth...India`s problem is caste which is different from race
I shared accommodation with several Indian guys at Uni, if a white person routinely said what they said he'd be arrrested. BNP and BJP same difference.
Tykejohnno ..That is the entire point.. I was called a racist and Xenophobe yesterday and I hadn't even posted a comment.
Not by me you weren't. I don't recall anyone else doing it either.
Could we have a roll call of exactly who has been called a racist and xenophobe? I feel the numerous people claiming repeatedly and endlessly that they've suffered these vile calumnies is closing down debate.
< Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
I'm not talking human rights bollocks. There is no legal basis in this country to carry around ID or for law enforcement officers to ask for one or for them to compel people to produce one on demand. That is British law, not ECHR, there are plenty of countries within the ECHR that have mandatory ID cards, including France, we don't. The Tories tried in the 90's Labour tried for 13 years, this time Dave and Nick campaigned against them, yet here we are with a high profile, very public campaign where foreign looking people are being targeted to produce ID on demand. Suddenly this country is starting to feel like it doesn't like people with the "wrong" colour skin, something I have never felt is an issue before.
Again, if the government were serious about catching illegal immigrants and preventing it then they would go after the wealthy business and property owners who hire and lease properties to them. That wouldn't be very public though and it wouldn't get them the headlines that they are "doing something" about illegal immigrants.
I actually posted on here I'm not bothered about the vans, I think the messaging was crass, but it hurt no one, trampling on the rights of British citizens is, however, wrong and it needs to stop.
welcome to the real world, if a police officer stops you he can get you on any number of charges if he really wants to. that' s the way the rest of us live too and why we have politicians etc. to stop them taking the piss. But whether you like it or not the plods have always gone off and done what the fancy until they get slapped down. It's happened to you and it will happen again.
Actually I do get it and you're talking out your arse mate. I grew up in Ulster in the 70s and 80s, getting stopped, checked, profiled happened to me regularly. So when you come on with some wanky whine about Human Rights it just shows how little you understand about what it actually means and how life's a damned sight more difficult elsewhere. perhaps an occasional inconvenience is the price we all have to put up with for walking the street 99.9% of the time in peace. As for the racism bollocks you live in one of the world's least racist countries, it could be worse you might live in one of the worst - like India.
With all due respect, that is bollocks. Northern Ireland was a war zone. You were not stopped because you had a certain skin colour. We don't all have to pay a price. Only those who look different do.
Was Manchester airport a war zone in the early 80s SO ? because i got stopped and luggage checked enough times as I passed through it, same for train services and boats. And if skin colour is an identifier so is accent and a passport. maybe those of us who went through it have a better idea of how it was.
My best friend was red haired, and her surname was Kelly - she was routinely stopped at airports for years for no other obvious reason than she appeared Irish. That she was a Geordie who didn't appear to have an Irish antecedent for about 150yrs was irrelevant.
She thought it was amusing if irritating. I used to get stopped at the Swiss border all the time as I drove there a lot and Interpol stuck me on a suspected drug mule list. I had my car searched/dismantled at the checkpoint everytime. Watching coach passengers pointing and staring was the best bit.
I even made sure I never travelled with anything that could be mistaken for drugs - like talc. It became a trifle boring...but fun in an odd way. I certainly never got all humpy about it or wrote to my MP to complain.
The Swiss had simply profiled me as a potential suspect so had me red flagged because I drove across the border from the UK on a regular basis with little luggage in a BMW.
welcome to the real world, if a police officer stops you he can get you on any number of charges if he really wants to. that' s the way the rest of us live too and why we have politicians etc. to stop them taking the piss. But whether you like it or not the plods have always gone off and done what the fancy until they get slapped down. It's happened to you and it will happen again.
Well maybe, just maybe, we need to reform the system so the police can't just do whatever the **** they like. Stuff like judicial oversight would help, but the government are too scared of being seen as soft on crime or soft on illegal immigrants etc...
People are quoting the Daily Mail and its the Mail's attitude that's incensing me.
Three of their five top stories are whipping up sentiment against the recently arrived or those potentially planning to arrive.
Then they are also running a story wailing about what Harper is saying and doing.
As I've said before - what the f8ck do people expect? If you want the government to chase illegals it is going to involve measures that are controversial and there is going to be collateral damage. It's utterly childish and naive to expect otherwise.
The Mail and others want illegals to be spirited away in magic coaches piloted by fairy godmothers. It's a d8gsh*t attitude and it absolutely stinks.
@Alanbrooke You wouldn`t say racism was a big problem in India if you visited,that`s for sure
I've travelled extensively round India and there is certainly noticeable discrimination against those with a darker skin colour - the number of shops selling skin whitening creams speaks for itself.And there are lots of these shops in Britain too. I used to walk by one opposite Scotland Yard everyday.
But is that about racism or about appearing to be socially superior like Southern White US ladies not wanting to look tanned in case they're mistaken for lower class *workers* ?
Smukesh.. I have visited India..not as a tourist, as a photojournalist, and Racism is rife..right across the country..It is convenient to call it the caste system but elswhere it is called racism
I have a massive amount of sympathy for the Roma people. The exact number is unknown, but somewhere in the region of 220,000 to 1,500,000 Romany people died in German camps during WWII, from a small population. The fact that the estimates vary so much is a symptom of the problem.
They are very much the forgotten victims of the camps.
If only 10% of the fraction of the money given to Israel since WWII had been given to the Romany people, then there world would be a better place. Sadly, most were trapped after WWII in that other evil empire, the Soviet Union.
A distinction should also be made between Romanians and Romanies; one Romanian I know hates Romanies with a passion that crosses the line into outright racism.
They are even hated in their homelands.
Josias, perhaps but at least some of them set a very poor example , robbing , pimping , destroying areas with detritus etc. They do not exactly set out to endear themselves to locals in their new locations.
welcome to the real world, if a police officer stops you he can get you on any number of charges if he really wants to. that' s the way the rest of us live too and why we have politicians etc. to stop them taking the piss. But whether you like it or not the plods have always gone off and done what the fancy until they get slapped down. It's happened to you and it will happen again.
Well maybe, just maybe, we need to reform the system so the police can't just do whatever the **** they like. Stuff like judicial oversight would help, but the government are too scared of being seen as soft on crime or soft on illegal immigrants etc...
the police force in this country goes through constant reviews and complaints procedures, and are forever getting tighter. This is still one of the freeest countries on the planet and compared to say France, you don't need an ID card, the police usually aren't armed, you don't need a pile of offical permissions to do things and the police powers vis a vis the citizen are more limited.
You have a stack of avenues open to you if disagree with being stopped, you'd be better using them rather than moaning on PB if you feel that strongly. Nobody on PB is going to rectify your complaint, the IPCC will if your case is justified. It's not as if you can't complain there are numerous avenues open to you.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
Max, get over it. do you think you're the only person who has ever been stopped and asked for ID ?
You just don't get it. The government are trampling over our freedoms and the rule of law to possibly, maybe catch tens of illegal immigrants. That's not what I voted for, nor is it any different from what Labour were doing when they were in power, as many have pointed out.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
If you are daft enough to live in London then you will just need to suck it up and accept your lot, move to Scotland and have a great life.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
One can get all precious about it or accept that one reaps what one sows.
Attempting to wipe out anyone is clearly wrong - but if you're alienating your neighbours because of your behaviour, its simple commonsense to stop annoying them.
If you park your home on someone else's property, are anti-social, leave a huge mess/fly-tip and attempt to or steal their property - why would anyone like you?
A friend of mine had a £30k tractor stolen and his field trashed. Our lane was filled with crap. I'd no particular view until I'd seen it for myself.
I've also had several robbery attempts made by Romas on trains using their children to distract passengers. No wonder they've got a bad rep.
I have a massive amount of sympathy for the Roma people. The exact number is unknown, but somewhere in the region of 220,000 to 1,500,000 Romany people died in German camps during WWII, from a small population. The fact that the estimates vary so much is a symptom of the problem.
They are very much the forgotten victims of the camps.
If only 10% of the fraction of the money given to Israel since WWII had been given to the Romany people, then there world would be a better place. Sadly, most were trapped after WWII in that other evil empire, the Soviet Union.
A distinction should also be made between Romanians and Romanies; one Romanian I know hates Romanies with a passion that crosses the line into outright racism.
They are even hated in their homelands.
Josias, perhaps but at least some of them set a very poor example , robbing , pimping , destroying areas with detritus etc. They do not exactly set out to endear themselves to locals in their new locations.
@Alanbrooke You wouldn`t say racism was a big problem in India if you visited,that`s for sure
I've travelled extensively round India and there is certainly noticeable discrimination against those with a darker skin colour - the number of shops selling skin whitening creams speaks for itself.And there are lots of these shops in Britain too. I used to walk by one opposite Scotland Yard everyday.
But is that about racism or about appearing to be socially superior like Southern White US ladies not wanting to look tanned in case they're mistaken for lower class *workers* ?
SMukesh , are you for real , racism in India is a way of life,
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
I am sure they did. Not sure how that justifies randomly stopping foreign looking people on the streets of 21st century London and asking them to prove they have the right to be there. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
So we should not randomly search for illegal-immigrants on the streets of London because they should be stopped at the borders. Taking this to it's logical conclusion then the police should not randomly stop drink-drivers on London's roads because the correct place to do this is pub car-parks.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
I am sure they did. Not sure how that justifies randomly stopping foreign looking people on the streets of 21st century London and asking them to prove they have the right to be there. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Lots of people get stopped for lots of reasons, life goes on and people get over it.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
I am sure they did. Not sure how that justifies randomly stopping foreign looking people on the streets of 21st century London and asking them to prove they have the right to be there. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Lots of people get stopped for lots of reasons, life goes on and people get over it.
Happily for us you and I will never be stopped because of our skin colour, so that's something we'll never have to get over.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
I am sure they did. Not sure how that justifies randomly stopping foreign looking people on the streets of 21st century London and asking them to prove they have the right to be there. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Lots of people get stopped for lots of reasons, life goes on and people get over it.
Happily for us you and I will never be stopped because of our skin colour, so that's something we'll never have to get over.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
yeah whatever keeps you happy SO, but you weren't there. I got off easy my next door neighbours were Catholic and travelling on irish passports. They had much better stories than I had.
I am sure they did. Not sure how that justifies randomly stopping foreign looking people on the streets of 21st century London and asking them to prove they have the right to be there. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
Lots of people get stopped for lots of reasons, life goes on and people get over it.
Happily for us you and I will never be stopped because of our skin colour, so that's something we'll never have to get over.
Ever been to Zimbabwe ?
Nope and I never will. Not sure what a repressive African dictatorship has to do with policing in the UK though.
Most Indians think racism exists only in the West and see themselves as victims. It's time they examined their own attitudes towards people from the country's North-East
The mysterious death of Loitam Richard in Bangalore, the murder of Ramchanphy Hongray in New Delhi, the suicide by Dana Sangma and other such incidents serve as reminders of the insecure conditions under which people, particularly the young, from the north-east of India have to live with in the metros of this country. What these deaths have in common is that the three individuals were all from a certain part of the country, had a “particular” physical appearance, and were seen as outsiders in the places they died. These incidents have been read as a symptom of the pervasive racial discrimination that people from the region face in metropolitan India. ~ The Hindu
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
SO
Take care. You are descending to the depths of Surbiton who spent the whole of yesterday complaining about "burly" police officers at London Underground stations.
Facts and evidence are important. The only video we had of UKBA officers was from Southall: the WPC was short and petite and the greying PC looked more undernourished than Mark Senior. "Burly" they were not.
As your claim that the UKBA do not catch illegals this is contradicted by official statistics. What has changed over the past three years when compared with the same three years a decade ago is that there has been a significant fall in forced repatriations offset by an equivalent rise in voluntary departures.
UKBA: Removals and voluntary departures
Total Total Total refused enforced voluntary entry at port removals departures and departed
Comments
Nice one!
I was amused yesterday when a certain poster who displayed sexism at a prehistoric level during the Rennard affair had the temerity to lambast others as being racist, on much less evidence.
2010:
Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Conservative Mark Harper 22,853 46.9 +6.0
Labour Bruce Hogan 11,789 24.2 -12.4
Liberal Democrat Christopher Coleman 10,676 21.9 +4.7
UKIP Tim Congdon 2,522 5.2 +2.8
Green James Greenwood 923 1.9 -0.2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Dean_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
It's a very simple test - Yes or No. It can't even be quibbled over like being stopped for drunken driving. It requires no other evidence or proof or testimony or character refs - you either have the right to be here or you don't.
The police have many faults - I've seen them with my own eyes from the inside - but this really isn't an area where it applies much as there is no latitude for having a plod opinion that changes the actualite.
That`s interesting...Labour did win it in 1997 and 2001 and wasn`t far off in 2005.
I asked her last night to comment on LabourList trying to intimidate Mr Messina - she didn't reply. I thought it was perfectly reasonable to ask since she's been very vocal about Twitter this week.
Today in another discussion I mentioned this and suggested that sauce for the goose didn't apply to ganders. She accused me of being moody and put words in my mouth.
I pointed out that perhaps it was my PMT or wasn't I allowed to disagree with her if I was female - she then didn't respond. I assume she thought I was male.
Twitter is most amusing at times. You can read the exchange at @platosays
Isnt that one of the constituencies UKIP "won" in the locals this year? Cant have anything to do with it, can it?
It looks a bit more intelligence led than the ops at London Underground stations.
24 July 2013 [Source: UKBA website]
Eight men from Pakistan and India were arrested during an operation by our officers moments before 6 sham wedding ceremonies were due to take place at Gretna registration office on Thursday (18 July).
Acting on information that the weddings may not be genuine, immigration officers attended the registration office.
They arrested the 8 men, aged between 27 and 40, all of whom were in the UK illegally. They included 5 would be grooms and 3 guests who were due to attend the ceremonies. They had all travelled to Gretna from areas in England, including Bradford, Manchester, Southall, Blackburn and Wolverhampton.
Six of the men have been detained pending their removal from the UK, while the remaining 2 must report regularly to us while their pending immigration cases are concluded.
The intended brides from the Czech Republic, Romania and the UK were interviewed and released.
I wonder if the UKBA officers pigged out at the receptions after detaining the suspects. The single ones could even have acted honourably by stepping in at the altar to marry the Czech and Romanian girls.
I wouldn`t be so cynical...Remember it`s all `intelligence led`.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/forestofdean/
EDIT
Survation highlighted Forest of Dean as a seat UKIP would have won.
http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
I believe in open borders so when I'm in charge those types of operations will end too (not that there would be a need for such weddings then of course).
Can I count on your vote?
And please no patronising comments from the PB Burleys. The sane Tories understand that the recent stories on immigration are very nasty - just the swivel eyed loons and closet rascists (you know who you are) who seem to think it is fair...
But you may count it.
Jasper Copping @JasperCopping
.@Kevin_Maguire Another candidate for "real #AlanPartridge" BBC broadcaster records own vasectomy bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod…
People here complaining that Obama let Messina work for Tories. I'm sure the president will make sure he runs these things by you in future.
BBC News (UK) @BBCNews
How writer HG Wells created hobby war gaming bbc.in/13Kv6tL pic.twitter.com/pYqLl8NFX9
Anyhow AndyJS on that thread gives the locals results as: Assuming UKIP don't do that well presumably some of that goes back to Con disproportionately so it's not easy, but it might be doable...
Forest of Dean is one of the constituencies the Tories won back in 2005 when Lynton Crosby ran his `Are you thinking what we are thinking? campaign.So with UKIP poised to take lumps out of the Conservatives there,it might be useful for Harper to prove his anti-immigration credentials.But am sure that din`t cross his mind at all.
My point has been that all governments have been doing this for years. The only thing that has happened recently is that they've decided to highlight some operations as part of a dog-whistling campaign along with the moronic vans etc.
This helps them get credit for these actions (or get called racist etc for them). Clearly their calculation is that the flack is well worth it for the support it attracts (even if some of us have the suspicion that it's UKIP that tends to get boosted whenever Tory ministers go populist).
But the people giving the credit or blaming them are wrong, they've just fallen for the pr, these things happen for better or worse (obviously I would argue for worse) all the time under governments run by all three main parties.
Not just that, the government seem to be making London from the most open city in the world to one where non-whites are being targeted for no reason other than not being white. Born here, consider myself British, I even support the England cricket team against India so I pass the so called Tebbit-test.
The simple fact is that the government are pissing all over our country's hard won and protected freedoms and you are cheering them on, because the colour of the government is mostly blue. I can guarantee that if Labour were doing this you would be telling us all how appalling it is and that Labour have overstepped the line etc...
You have yet to answer the question, why do you support the government in abusing our freedoms like this. If they wanted to stop illegal immigration and get illegals in this country out, a scattershot aimed at London is not how to do it. Target the employers of illegal immigrants, raid all of those 17 people to a room properties in east London, target the landlords of said properties with hefty fines and jail time. Make it so unattractive in terms of being able to live and earn money here that migration to the UK illegally just isn't worth the hassle. However, all of those measures would have to be done either in secret or with very little publicity. So I know why they aren't bothering.
It convinces no one and shifts no votes. Why they do it is beyond me.
Don`t believe everything you read in surveys,mate...Since historical times,India has always been one of the most tolerant countries on earth...India`s problem is caste which is different from race
Again, if the government were serious about catching illegal immigrants and preventing it then they would go after the wealthy business and property owners who hire and lease properties to them. That wouldn't be very public though and it wouldn't get them the headlines that they are "doing something" about illegal immigrants.
I actually posted on here I'm not bothered about the vans, I think the messaging was crass, but it hurt no one, trampling on the rights of British citizens is, however, wrong and it needs to stop.
Given that'd I'd just forked out about £150 to have tea with champers with a friend - I declined and thanked him for thinking I could charge for sex.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html
Have you been to India?
She thought it was amusing if irritating. I used to get stopped at the Swiss border all the time as I drove there a lot and Interpol stuck me on a suspected drug mule list. I had my car searched/dismantled at the checkpoint everytime. Watching coach passengers pointing and staring was the best bit.
I even made sure I never travelled with anything that could be mistaken for drugs - like talc. It became a trifle boring...but fun in an odd way. I certainly never got all humpy about it or wrote to my MP to complain.
The Swiss had simply profiled me as a potential suspect so had me red flagged because I drove across the border from the UK on a regular basis with little luggage in a BMW.
You wouldn`t say racism was a big problem in India if you visited,that`s for sure
Three of their five top stories are whipping up sentiment against the recently arrived or those potentially planning to arrive.
Then they are also running a story wailing about what Harper is saying and doing.
As I've said before - what the f8ck do people expect? If you want the government to chase illegals it is going to involve measures that are controversial and there is going to be collateral damage. It's utterly childish and naive to expect otherwise.
The Mail and others want illegals to be spirited away in magic coaches piloted by fairy godmothers. It's a d8gsh*t attitude and it absolutely stinks.
But is that about racism or about appearing to be socially superior like Southern White US ladies not wanting to look tanned in case they're mistaken for lower class *workers* ?
You have a stack of avenues open to you if disagree with being stopped, you'd be better using them rather than moaning on PB if you feel that strongly. Nobody on PB is going to rectify your complaint, the IPCC will if your case is justified. It's not as if you can't complain there are numerous avenues open to you.
Were you travelling to or from NI? If so, given what was happening there, and on the mainland, stopping you was perfectly reasonable and was something that everyone would have gone through. Equally, no-one can hear your accent until you're stopped an so by definition we are talking about a random stop, which again everyone can suffer. Neither applies in Max's case. Those of us who are white skinned and "look" British are not going to get stopped on suspicion of being illegally in the UK. It is not an inconvenience we will all go through. There will be nothing for us to get over. And, what's more, if it's been going on for 10 years it's clearly not working as a deterrent, while the numbers of illegals actually caught are miniscule. Instead, British citizens such as Max are being made potential targets for grubby reasons by politicians who are failing to do their jobs properly.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/07/idemocracy-and-a-new-model-party/
All this stuff applies to Lib and Lab as well.
Attempting to wipe out anyone is clearly wrong - but if you're alienating your neighbours because of your behaviour, its simple commonsense to stop annoying them.
If you park your home on someone else's property, are anti-social, leave a huge mess/fly-tip and attempt to or steal their property - why would anyone like you?
A friend of mine had a £30k tractor stolen and his field trashed. Our lane was filled with crap. I'd no particular view until I'd seen it for myself.
I've also had several robbery attempts made by Romas on trains using their children to distract passengers. No wonder they've got a bad rep.
:fecking-eejits:
Giving the police a bad name
Or are you trying to make an assertion without evidence?
Take care. You are descending to the depths of Surbiton who spent the whole of yesterday complaining about "burly" police officers at London Underground stations.
Facts and evidence are important. The only video we had of UKBA officers was from Southall: the WPC was short and petite and the greying PC looked more undernourished than Mark Senior. "Burly" they were not.
As your claim that the UKBA do not catch illegals this is contradicted by official statistics. What has changed over the past three years when compared with the same three years a decade ago is that there has been a significant fall in forced repatriations offset by an equivalent rise in voluntary departures. "Nasty", "burly" Tories!