politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP’s attempt to block the scrapping of roaming ccharges w
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP’s attempt to block the scrapping of roaming ccharges will play badly in the EURef campaign
One of the things which the REMAIN campaign finds hard is giving specific examples of what the EU does for individual voters. One such area now is the decision taken at the end of October, to end all mobile phone roaming charges for use in the EU in 18 months time.
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First, like the Tories
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"This is such a competitive price sensitive business environmnt that increasing tariffs is a huge risk. The direction is all by the networks to try to offer more for less. Just look at what 4G costs now with when it was first introduced. "
Which tends to suggest that prices will keep moving downwards regardless of remain/leave?
(top trolling tho
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Ten of the 19 destinations where 3 provide free data roaming are outside of the EU.
http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home
No, I am not a kipper.0 -
Morning all.
This ‘will play badly in the EURef campaign’ – No it won’t, no matter how often it’s trotted out.
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Whichs further supports the point that the UKIP claim is bogus.old_labour said:Ten of the 19 destinations where 3 provide free data roaming are outside of the EU.
http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home
No, I am not a kipper.0 -
This was already solved by the UK regulators - e.g. the Vodafone EuroTraveller package - before the EU jumped on the bandwagon.MikeSmithson said:
Whichs further supports the point that the UKIP claim is bogus.old_labour said:Ten of the 19 destinations where 3 provide free data roaming are outside of the EU.
http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home
No, I am not a kipper.
But it won't make a blind bit of difference.
(And I'm sure we've had this header before - the punters weren't convinced then, and they don't seem to be so far this time either)0 -
I suspect the great majority of those for whom "roaming charges" is an issue will already be in REMAIN.
It's not exactly up there with control of the nation's borders or finances....0 -
Abolition here by the EU is a good thing. There are similar moves in relation to TV rights also to be welcomed. The more the EU does in these areas the better. The kipper mentality to condemn all the EU has done just adds to the sense of a party looking backwards. I see the decline continues in local by-elections and the polls on Brexit are moving against them. Expect a lot of bitterness and bile from the Leave Campaign.0
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Of course but you do seem to be accepting the point.MarqueeMark said:I suspect the great majority of those for whom "roaming charges" is an issue will already be in REMAIN.
It's not exactly up there with control of the nation's borders or finances....0 -
If by "point" you mean something that has zero dimensions....felix said:
Of course but you do seem to be accepting the point.MarqueeMark said:I suspect the great majority of those for whom "roaming charges" is an issue will already be in REMAIN.
It's not exactly up there with control of the nation's borders or finances....0 -
I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.0 -
15th like Chelsea?
Happy Winterval one and all!0 -
Sssht. This is Remain's killer argument for the campaign!old_labour said:Ten of the 19 destinations where 3 provide free data roaming are outside of the EU.
http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home
No, I am not a kipper.0 -
The EU is bound to have done *some* things that most people accept as positive in the round. Remain will of course point to these.felix said:
Of course but you do seem to be accepting the point.MarqueeMark said:I suspect the great majority of those for whom "roaming charges" is an issue will already be in REMAIN.
It's not exactly up there with control of the nation's borders or finances....
Whether or not they'd have happened anyway - either domestically or internationally - is another matter.
Even if they would not have, whether or not a few minor wins compensates for major losses of sovereignty in trade, migration, crime, justice, social and economic policy, financial services, market regulation, local tax inflexibility, agriculture, fisheries, environment and energy for 1/28th of continent-wide 'influence' is quite another again.0 -
Good heavens, another kipper bashing post! and a Remain post as well for bonus points.
I am not sure why we expect businesses to provide services at no extra cost, providing a roaming service costs extra money, why should the users not pay for it? The alternative is the cost is just defrayed across everyone's call charges, including people that never make a foreign call. Why is it that left leaners think that the individuals should pay when they do something they (the left) disapprove of ("the polluter pays" etc) but the rest of the time the individual should not pay for extra services they use.... its this entitlement society that leaves us with people expecting tattoo removal on the NHS.0 -
Correct. This is about the poor not having to subsidise the rich.Indigo said:Good heavens, another kipper bashing post! and a Remain post as well for bonus points.
I am not sure why we expect businesses to provide services at no extra cost, providing a roaming service costs extra money, why should the users not pay for it? The alternative is the cost is just defrayed across everyone's call charges, including people that never make a foreign call.
I travel abroad relatively frequently (not to a country on the Three list) - if I'm away for more than a weekend I get a local SIM.0 -
What tosh. Far from "the poor not having to subsidise the rich", roaming charges are an outrageous way for telecoms companies to fleece travellers with absolutely no justification other than they can. The rates make payday loan APRs look defensible.ThreeQuidder said:
Correct. This is about the poor not having to subsidise the rich.Indigo said:Good heavens, another kipper bashing post! and a Remain post as well for bonus points.
I am not sure why we expect businesses to provide services at no extra cost, providing a roaming service costs extra money, why should the users not pay for it? The alternative is the cost is just defrayed across everyone's call charges, including people that never make a foreign call.
I travel abroad relatively frequently (not to a country on the Three list) - if I'm away for more than a weekend I get a local SIM.
Domestic rates are far far lower because of the much greater competition. That competition isn't going to go away.
This isn't about rich vs poor. This is about consumers vs telecoms companies.
UKIP's obsessive anti-EU stance makes them do some pretty daft things. Campaigning for telecoms companies to be allowed to continue to rip off customers is right up there.0 -
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!0 -
I doubt it'll provide much of a boost to the Remain side. That said, UKIP generally probably will.0
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We did that the last time we were in Disney. Pre-paid phones from Walmart simply took roaming charges out of the equation.ThreeQuidder said:
Correct. This is about the poor not having to subsidise the rich.Indigo said:Good heavens, another kipper bashing post! and a Remain post as well for bonus points.
I am not sure why we expect businesses to provide services at no extra cost, providing a roaming service costs extra money, why should the users not pay for it? The alternative is the cost is just defrayed across everyone's call charges, including people that never make a foreign call.
I travel abroad relatively frequently (not to a country on the Three list) - if I'm away for more than a weekend I get a local SIM.
I think the real point of Mike's piece actually points the other way. It is incredibly difficult to make the undoubted benefits of being part of a large and reasonably integrated market real for people. It is an amorphic and theoretical benefit. Once the 3m jobs nonsense is laughed away how do you show an upside to being in such a market? This is one way I suppose although it is pretty peripheral for most people.
Remain do have some work to do to come up with some answers to the question of "what have theRomansEU ever done for us?"
Doesn't mean that the UKIP MEPs who can be bothered to turn up in Brussels are not a bunch of tubes of course.0 -
What has the ending of roaming charges got to do with "the left"? Is this a move the Tories opposed?Indigo said:Good heavens, another kipper bashing post! and a Remain post as well for bonus points.
I am not sure why we expect businesses to provide services at no extra cost, providing a roaming service costs extra money, why should the users not pay for it? The alternative is the cost is just defrayed across everyone's call charges, including people that never make a foreign call. Why is it that left leaners think that the individuals should pay when they do something they (the left) disapprove of ("the polluter pays" etc) but the rest of the time the individual should not pay for extra services they use.... its this entitlement society that leaves us with people expecting tattoo removal on the NHS.
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"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.0 -
Ah, so you have the figures to hand for what say French Telecoms companies charge the UK companies for access to their network ? How do you know how much it costs to run roaming calls. The one thing you can be sure of is the telecoms companies will not take a loss, stop them from charging for roaming and all the other call charges will creep up to cover the cost. Those will be the call charges paid by the sort of poor people that never leave the country, good you to pass the charges on to them so that you can get a nice cheap trip abroad.AlastairMeeks said:
What tosh. Far from "the poor not having to subsidise the rich", roaming charges are an outrageous way for telecoms companies to fleece travellers with absolutely no justification other than they can. The rates make payday loan APRs look defensible.
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A non issue - people are not as petty as that. They are able to separate consumer issues from constitutional ones.
I'm amazed 3 hasn't won as a network with the feel at
Home promotion.0 -
Another story of EU interference that might be spun either way is the reduction of bank deposit protection limits by £10,000 to meet an EU limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35168696
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I'm happy to give credit to MS, his negativity towards UKIP knows no bounds.
There's a consensus on here that the electorate aren't engaged in the EU issue, perhaps they will be nearer the date. As a committed Leaver I'm not dreading the day when Cameron says:
If you vote to Leave UKIP will charge you more to watch porn on holiday.
Sorry Mike, must do better.0 -
Incidentally, I'm still living in 2002 with my cheap pays as you go simple Nokia phone. What makes me laugh is that I pay 12p a text in Britain, yet when I go abroad - such as Greece earlier this month - I pay 5p a text!0
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http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-data-roaming-costs-too-much/Indigo said:
Ah, so you have the figures to hand for what say French Telecoms companies charge the UK companies for access to their network ? How do you know how much it costs to run roaming calls. The one thing you can be sure of is the telecoms companies will not take a loss, stop them from charging for roaming and all the other call charges will creep up to cover the cost. Those will be the call charges paid by the sort of poor people that never leave the country, good you to pass the charges on to them so that you can get a nice cheap trip abroad.AlastairMeeks said:
What tosh. Far from "the poor not having to subsidise the rich", roaming charges are an outrageous way for telecoms companies to fleece travellers with absolutely no justification other than they can. The rates make payday loan APRs look defensible.0 -
This is quite an interesting piece on car insurance
http://tinyurl.com/pu85chw
I'm not sure what effect the car insurance legislation had, but the suspicion was that rather than cutting the cost of male car insurance, the cost female car insure would increase. If it is the case that women are less likely to claim, then they should be entitled to cheaper car insurance.0 -
Yes, that's because the Euro is junk and they didn't want British banks to have an unfair advantage!DecrepitJohnL said:Another story of EU interference that might be spun either way is the reduction of bank deposit protection limits by £10,000 to meet an EU limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-351686960 -
What about the French telecom company that owns a UK mobile provider?Indigo said:
Ah, so you have the figures to hand for what say French Telecoms companies charge the UK companies for access to their network ? How do you know how much it costs to run roaming calls. The one thing you can be sure of is the telecoms companies will not take a loss, stop them from charging for roaming and all the other call charges will creep up to cover the cost. Those will be the call charges paid by the sort of poor people that never leave the country, good you to pass the charges on to them so that you can get a nice cheap trip abroad.AlastairMeeks said:
What tosh. Far from "the poor not having to subsidise the rich", roaming charges are an outrageous way for telecoms companies to fleece travellers with absolutely no justification other than they can. The rates make payday loan APRs look defensible.
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Although I agree with you I'm going to stick up for the goons at Dover, virtually nobody in Dover pays full price for their tobacco, the fag runners have had a bustling trade for years.tlg86 said:"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.
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Blame UKIP!tlg86 said:Incidentally, I'm still living in 2002 with my cheap pays as you go simple Nokia phone. What makes me laugh is that I pay 12p a text in Britain, yet when I go abroad - such as Greece earlier this month - I pay 5p a text!
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12p a text?? If my kids were charged that I would have had to sell the house by now.tlg86 said:Incidentally, I'm still living in 2002 with my cheap pays as you go simple Nokia phone. What makes me laugh is that I pay 12p a text in Britain, yet when I go abroad - such as Greece earlier this month - I pay 5p a text!
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You shouldn't begrudge the people of Dover cheap booze and fags, they do have to live in Dover after all! What annoys me is that, as ever, they go for the easy targets. I've seen the dodgiest looking vehicles waved through whilst Mr and Mrs Bloggs coming home from holiday get pulled over and have their car stripped down.blackburn63 said:
Although I agree with you I'm going to stick up for the goons at Dover, virtually nobody in Dover pays full price for their tobacco, the fag runners have had a bustling trade for years.tlg86 said:"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.0 -
On its own, the reduction in bank deposit protection to £75,000 might be taken as good for Leave but there is an element of "first world problems" at play here, and even more than data roaming, since that catches holiday makers, might be spun as the poor subsidising the rich.tlg86 said:
Yes, that's because the Euro is junk and they didn't want British banks to have an unfair advantage!DecrepitJohnL said:Another story of EU interference that might be spun either way is the reduction of bank deposit protection limits by £10,000 to meet an EU limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35168696
Like most people, I do not have £75,000 savings nor take foreign holidays, and I'm the most normal person I know. :-)0 -
Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Without wishing to get myself in trouble a lot of the goons live locally, they have a requisite number of vehicles to check, and plenty of them drink and smoke.tlg86 said:
You shouldn't begrudge the people of Dover cheap booze and fags, they do have to live in Dover after all! What annoys me is that, as ever, they go for the easy targets. I've seen the dodgiest looking vehicles waved through whilst Mr and Mrs Bloggs coming home from holiday get pulled over and have their car stripped down.blackburn63 said:
Although I agree with you I'm going to stick up for the goons at Dover, virtually nobody in Dover pays full price for their tobacco, the fag runners have had a bustling trade for years.tlg86 said:"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.
I'm worried that I've just said something that could be held against me in court but luckily I'm an unreliable witness.
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Agree completely. Even if you do have more than the limit you just spread it around different institutions if you are risk averse.DecrepitJohnL said:
On its own, the reduction in bank deposit protection to £75,000 might be taken as good for Leave but there is an element of "first world problems" at play here, and even more than data roaming, since that catches holiday makers, might be spun as the poor subsidising the rich.tlg86 said:
Yes, that's because the Euro is junk and they didn't want British banks to have an unfair advantage!DecrepitJohnL said:Another story of EU interference that might be spun either way is the reduction of bank deposit protection limits by £10,000 to meet an EU limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35168696
Like most people, I do not have £75,000 savings nor take foreign holidays, and I'm the most normal person I know. :-)
If anything it could be seen to be anti British banks who deal in the Pound Sterling. One of the things that could be quite interesting during the Referendum is how the City of London is portrayed. Some might like to point out that the City - and bankers - might lose out if we left the EU. Will Jezza want to be associated with this? There could be a few interesting alliances that are not normal bedfellows.0 -
I just lol'd at that.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
The Remain campaign, such as it is, fascinates me. It started by Clegg claiming it would cost 3m jobs, but that was debunked by the bloke who made the claim. Then it was based around foreign companies leaving, but they won't. Then it moved on to claims that the EU would invade us the day after Brexit. Now it's roaming charges, something 90% of the electorate have never experienced.
It's strange, Remain are short favourites, had an enormous lead and are now reduced to this nonsense.
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I consider myself pretty well-off and I don't have anything like that amount of money. If I did, I certainly wouldn't keep it in a bank account the way interest rates are at present. It would be in several buy-to-let houses. And although Osborne is closing that particular avenue off as far as he can, that's nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own housing crisis.tlg86 said:
Agree completely. Even if you do have more than the limit you just spread it around different institutions if you are risk averse.DecrepitJohnL said:
On its own, the reduction in bank deposit protection to £75,000 might be taken as good for Leave but there is an element of "first world problems" at play here, and even more than data roaming, since that catches holiday makers, might be spun as the poor subsidising the rich.tlg86 said:
Yes, that's because the Euro is junk and they didn't want British banks to have an unfair advantage!DecrepitJohnL said:Another story of EU interference that might be spun either way is the reduction of bank deposit protection limits by £10,000 to meet an EU limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35168696
Like most people, I do not have £75,000 savings nor take foreign holidays, and I'm the most normal person I know. :-)0 -
Well said. An entirely spurious and stupid notion.Morris_Dancer said:
Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Its more thank likely that these cars get pulled over because they have kipper stickers in the back window.blackburn63 said:
Without wishing to get myself in trouble a lot of the goons live locally, they have a requisite number of vehicles to check, and plenty of them drink and smoke.tlg86 said:
You shouldn't begrudge the people of Dover cheap booze and fags, they do have to live in Dover after all! What annoys me is that, as ever, they go for the easy targets. I've seen the dodgiest looking vehicles waved through whilst Mr and Mrs Bloggs coming home from holiday get pulled over and have their car stripped down.blackburn63 said:
Although I agree with you I'm going to stick up for the goons at Dover, virtually nobody in Dover pays full price for their tobacco, the fag runners have had a bustling trade for years.tlg86 said:"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.
I'm worried that I've just said something that could be held against me in court but luckily I'm an unreliable witness.
They don't like it up em Capt Mannering !0 -
Surely it is pretty obvious why the rights to watch Leicester City should be worth more in England; Bayern Munich in Germany; Barcelona in ... and so on. Why should English football fans subsidise Partick Thistle? How much should German viewers pay for Test cricket?tlg86 said:Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
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Well that's one way to spend £67k. Clone your dog. Or buy a puppy from the same mum and dad again for about £500...
Mr Remde, 42, who manages a building firm, and Miss Jacques said their cloned dogs would be like ‘five Christmases coming at once’.
Miss Jacques, a professional dog walker, told the Guardian: ‘I had had Dylan since he was a puppy. I mothered him so much, he was my baby, my child, my entire world.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3372712/Heartbroken-pet-owners-paid-67-000-flown-South-Korea-two-puppies-cloned-beloved-dead-dog.html#ixzz3vDulswZL0 -
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
I can assure you that plenty of the goons at Dover are very much UKIP supporters.SquareRoot said:
Its more thank likely that these cars get pulled over because they have kipper stickers in the back window.blackburn63 said:
Without wishing to get myself in trouble a lot of the goons live locally, they have a requisite number of vehicles to check, and plenty of them drink and smoke.tlg86 said:
You shouldn't begrudge the people of Dover cheap booze and fags, they do have to live in Dover after all! What annoys me is that, as ever, they go for the easy targets. I've seen the dodgiest looking vehicles waved through whilst Mr and Mrs Bloggs coming home from holiday get pulled over and have their car stripped down.blackburn63 said:
Although I agree with you I'm going to stick up for the goons at Dover, virtually nobody in Dover pays full price for their tobacco, the fag runners have had a bustling trade for years.tlg86 said:"Given how much we use our smartphones to access the internet this increasingly has become an issue with it being easy to chalk up bills of several hundred pounds whilst abroad."
Only if you're a complete ******* moron.
Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
The goons at Dover are another bugbear of mine. They think there is some magical amount of booze or tobacco above which you can't bring into the country because it can't possibly be for personal use. Well, sorry, it's for HMRC to prove when someone's ripping them off and not paying duty due on goods sold in this country.
I'm worried that I've just said something that could be held against me in court but luckily I'm an unreliable witness.
They don't like it up em Capt Mannering !
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Just read a great article in the Indy about a Tory shadow cabinet minister some years back who fessed up to being a nudist during a debate about cannabis. Danny Finkelstein ordered him to keep it quiet because being a nudist was worse than smoking cannabis.
They're a pretty open minded bunch these Tories aren't they, I suspect most of them have sex fully clothed in the dark, while sober.0 -
Will be made?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
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Miss Plato, or less. I forget how much my first dog was, but she was excellent.
It's crackers. And that's leaving aside the potential problems with cloning (I imagine it's improved a lot since I read a little on it, but the problems were bloody enormous [the worst instance being a cow that was born with its organs on the outside]).
Mr. Meeks, and this is why I think Farage, UKIP and the UKIP-in-all-but-name leave campaign should not be front and centre.
Farage is to Leave what someone who thinks we should join the euro is to In.0 -
There's so much risible nonsense in that article that I'll have to come back to it after 9am when I can easily copy/paste.AlastairMeeks said:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-data-roaming-costs-too-much/Indigo said:
Ah, so you have the figures to hand for what say French Telecoms companies charge the UK companies for access to their network ? How do you know how much it costs to run roaming calls. The one thing you can be sure of is the telecoms companies will not take a loss, stop them from charging for roaming and all the other call charges will creep up to cover the cost. Those will be the call charges paid by the sort of poor people that never leave the country, good you to pass the charges on to them so that you can get a nice cheap trip abroad.AlastairMeeks said:
What tosh. Far from "the poor not having to subsidise the rich", roaming charges are an outrageous way for telecoms companies to fleece travellers with absolutely no justification other than they can. The rates make payday loan APRs look defensible.0 -
Or that the rights to watch Leicester should be more in Leicester than in the rest of the UK?DecrepitJohnL said:
Surely it is pretty obvious why the rights to watch Leicester City should be worth more in England; Bayern Munich in Germany; Barcelona in ... and so on. Why should English football fans subsidise Partick Thistle? How much should German viewers pay for Test cricket?tlg86 said:Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
No, the point is that the PL sell the British rights to Sky and BT for a huge amount and then sell rights to companies across the EU. Ultimately we're consumers in the EU and pubs should be free to purchase the broadcast from any EU provider.0 -
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
0 -
Oi, you leave my groats out of this!Alanbrooke said:
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Welcome to the nonsense of copyright laws...tlg86 said:
Or that the rights to watch Leicester should be more in Leicester than in the rest of the UK?DecrepitJohnL said:
Surely it is pretty obvious why the rights to watch Leicester City should be worth more in England; Bayern Munich in Germany; Barcelona in ... and so on. Why should English football fans subsidise Partick Thistle? How much should German viewers pay for Test cricket?tlg86 said:Felix mentions TV rights, I'm not sure what the current situation is, but I am completely on the side of any pub showing Premier League football via an EU broadcaster. This is what really annoys me about the EU - it's supposed to be a common market, so why the PL think they can restrict trade to their chosen broadcaster in this country I don't know.
No, the point is that the PL sell the British rights to Sky and BT for a huge amount and then sell rights to companies across the EU. Ultimately we're consumers in the EU and pubs should be free to purchase the broadcast from any EU provider.0 -
Lord O, good to see you, hows life in the fleshpots of Surrey ?JohnO said:
Oi, you leave my groats out of this!Alanbrooke said:
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
No, I'm not saying that. But many, many people have not, or have only made a few journeys. These may well be from the poorer segments of society.not_on_fire said:
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!
Right, I've just looked up some figures, According to this survey, 8% of Brits have never been abroad (and others not to the EU). It'd be interesting to see figures for 'regular' travellers as well. I'd say 8% is a 'large chunk', in that it is several million people.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
It's easy to get the impression from reading posts on here that we're all frequent international travellers: requests for advice about restaurants in Moscow, or SeanT's latest adventures. I'd certainly argue that they are very much one extreme and not the experience of most people.
I'm fairly well-off and mobile, and I've only made three trips to the EU: Germany and Romania for weddings, and northern France for a holiday. I've visited many more non-EU countries.
It'd be good to see some more detailed figures.
edit: see here:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm:77-3351110 -
Well, Brookie, you may have a convert. Life and happinessin this fleshpot of Surrey will be 62% reduced next year thanks to a certain t***pot named Osborne.Alanbrooke said:
Lord O, good to see you, hows life in the fleshpots of Surrey ?JohnO said:
Oi, you leave my groats out of this!Alanbrooke said:
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
@liamjlhill:
Doing well. Net minus 41.
Good leader. Net minus 21.
Satisfied. Net minus 17.
Favourable. Net minus 28.
https://t.co/3Mkc82yXJ30 -
We had four days in France in August in a remote place with no internet access, it was bliss.0
-
And how many of the 24-28% who think he is doing well (in its various incarnations) work for Conservative Central Office? It must have been like Christmas every day for three months for them!Scott_P said:@liamjlhill:
Doing well. Net minus 41.
Good leader. Net minus 21.
Satisfied. Net minus 17.
Favourable. Net minus 28.
https://t.co/3Mkc82yXJ30 -
What's up?JohnO said:
Well, Brookie, you may have a convert. Life and happinessin this fleshpot of Surrey will be 62% reduced next year thanks to a certain t***pot named Osborne.Alanbrooke said:
Lord O, good to see you, hows life in the fleshpots of Surrey ?JohnO said:
Oi, you leave my groats out of this!Alanbrooke said:
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
I just read that in the Indy as well! I thought about mentioning it but thought there must be more to it.Plato_Says said:
0 -
BB63.. Just unplug everything..no need to go to France.. bliss forever..0
-
Cheer up, you could be running a manufacturing company :-)JohnO said:
Well, Brookie, you may have a convert. Life and happinessin this fleshpot of Surrey will be 62% reduced next year thanks to a certain t***pot named Osborne.Alanbrooke said:
Lord O, good to see you, hows life in the fleshpots of Surrey ?JohnO said:
Oi, you leave my groats out of this!Alanbrooke said:
Come off it Alistair, your vision for Britain is London stopping at Lands End and John O Groats.AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Have Leave come up with a coherent position on whether they want Britain to leave the EEA yet? If not, surely all this talk of "controlling our borders/EU immigration" is simply hokum as this is an EEA matter.0
-
LOL so why are you on the internet then Richard ?richardDodd said:BB63.. Just unplug everything..no need to go to France.. bliss forever..
Festive Greetings by the way :-)0 -
Yup - I've travelled to many more places outside the EU.JosiasJessop said:
No, I'm not saying that. But many, many people have not, or have only made a few journeys. These may well be from the poorer segments of society.not_on_fire said:
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!
Right, I've just looked up some figures, According to this survey, 8% of Brits have never been abroad (and others not to the EU). It'd be interesting to see figures for 'regular' travellers as well. I'd say 8% is a 'large chunk', in that it is several million people.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
It's easy to get the impression from reading posts on here that we're all frequent international travellers: requests for advice about restaurants in Moscow, or SeanT's latest adventures. I'd certainly argue that they are very much one extreme and not the experience of most people.
I'm fairly well-off and mobile, and I've only made three trips to the EU: Germany and Romania for weddings, and northern France for a holiday. I've visited many more non-EU countries.
It'd be good to see some more detailed figures.
edit: see here:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm:77-3351110 -
It was wonderful, we read books and had conversations that inevitably turned into blazing rows. The apparent addiction that some people have to their mobile devices is a worrying trend, it's not just teenagers.richardDodd said:BB63.. Just unplug everything..no need to go to France.. bliss forever..
As usual UKIP are taking a moral stance on behalf of humanity.
0 -
Well, according to the ONS data, in 2013 of 57.8m trips abroad by British citizens, 46m (79.5%) were to an EU country. So yours not a typical travel pattern.Plato_Says said:Yup - I've travelled to many more places outside the EU.
JosiasJessop said:
No, I'm not saying that. But many, many people have not, or have only made a few journeys. These may well be from the poorer segments of society.not_on_fire said:
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!
Right, I've just looked up some figures, According to this survey, 8% of Brits have never been abroad (and others not to the EU). It'd be interesting to see figures for 'regular' travellers as well. I'd say 8% is a 'large chunk', in that it is several million people.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
It's easy to get the impression from reading posts on here that we're all frequent international travellers: requests for advice about restaurants in Moscow, or SeanT's latest adventures. I'd certainly argue that they are very much one extreme and not the experience of most people.
I'm fairly well-off and mobile, and I've only made three trips to the EU: Germany and Romania for weddings, and northern France for a holiday. I've visited many more non-EU countries.
It'd be good to see some more detailed figures.
edit: see here:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm:77-3351110 -
Yes, but isn't that individual trips, not people? So someone like an ex-colleague who lived in northern France and worked in Cambridge, would count for 40-50 trips each year. That's an extreme, but one that'd skew the data somewhat.not_on_fire said:
Well, according to the ONS data, in 2013 of 57.8m trips abroad by British citizens, 46m (79.5%) were to an EU country. So yours not a typical travel pattern.Plato_Says said:Yup - I've travelled to many more places outside the EU.
JosiasJessop said:
No, I'm not saying that. But many, many people have not, or have only made a few journeys. These may well be from the poorer segments of society.not_on_fire said:
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!
Right, I've just looked up some figures, According to this survey, 8% of Brits have never been abroad (and others not to the EU). It'd be interesting to see figures for 'regular' travellers as well. I'd say 8% is a 'large chunk', in that it is several million people.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
It's easy to get the impression from reading posts on here that we're all frequent international travellers: requests for advice about restaurants in Moscow, or SeanT's latest adventures. I'd certainly argue that they are very much one extreme and not the experience of most people.
I'm fairly well-off and mobile, and I've only made three trips to the EU: Germany and Romania for weddings, and northern France for a holiday. I've visited many more non-EU countries.
It'd be good to see some more detailed figures.
edit: see here:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm:77-335111
My main point is that the data roaming charges is prominent in the media because the highly-mobile media and chattering classes will gain most from it. To many (most?) people it's essentially be an irrelevance compared to other issues.
Basically: the media are making too much of what is a relatively small and inconsequential, if welcome, alteration.0 -
In the last three yrs I have been to Malta, Portugal, Majorca twice and the Canaries.. I have also been to Norfolk but not sure if that counts...not_on_fire said:
Well, according to the ONS data, in 2013 of 57.8m trips abroad by British citizens, 46m (79.5%) were to an EU country. So yours not a typical travel pattern.Plato_Says said:Yup - I've travelled to many more places outside the EU.
JosiasJessop said:
No, I'm not saying that. But many, many people have not, or have only made a few journeys. These may well be from the poorer segments of society.not_on_fire said:
Are you really saying that a large chunk of the population has never left the UK, or at most once in their lives? That sounds preposterous.JosiasJessop said:I've always wondered how many people this really helps. It'll help the regular business traveller, the media, the politicians etc, but how many 'normal' people travel abroad frequently enough for this to be a real issue?
The article says 'millions of UK smartphone users'. What are the figures?
There are lots of people who rarely travel abroad, and if they do it's a once-in-a-lifetime trip. In this, as is often the case, is PB typical.
A large chunk (possibly a majority) of the English population live geographically closer to France than Scotland!
Right, I've just looked up some figures, According to this survey, 8% of Brits have never been abroad (and others not to the EU). It'd be interesting to see figures for 'regular' travellers as well. I'd say 8% is a 'large chunk', in that it is several million people.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
It's easy to get the impression from reading posts on here that we're all frequent international travellers: requests for advice about restaurants in Moscow, or SeanT's latest adventures. I'd certainly argue that they are very much one extreme and not the experience of most people.
I'm fairly well-off and mobile, and I've only made three trips to the EU: Germany and Romania for weddings, and northern France for a holiday. I've visited many more non-EU countries.
It'd be good to see some more detailed figures.
edit: see here:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm:77-3351110 -
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Do mobile devices cause flooding by any chance?blackburn63 said:
It was wonderful, we read books and had conversations that inevitably turned into blazing rows. The apparent addiction that some people have to their mobile devices is a worrying trend, it's not just teenagers.richardDodd said:BB63.. Just unplug everything..no need to go to France.. bliss forever..
As usual UKIP are taking a moral stance on behalf of humanity.0 -
Mr. Jessop, reminds me of the 2007 flooding. Yorkshire didn't get a mention once Gloucestershire and Worcestershire were hit. Or a couple of years back, Somerset got largely ignored until it got soggy in the Thames Valley.
It's the same reason (that and award-hunting) that broadcast media has been almost entirely unwilling to point out the problems of mass immigration, totally out of tune with public opinion.
For that matter, some on the Barbara Slater F1 thread raised the issue that tennis is sacrosanct because it's (upper) middle class, whereas F1 doesn't hold the BBC's interest in the same way.0 -
Chill. It's just OGH trolling the BOOers as usual.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
Only if you drop one down the loo.Wanderer said:
Do mobile devices cause flooding by any chance?blackburn63 said:
It was wonderful, we read books and had conversations that inevitably turned into blazing rows. The apparent addiction that some people have to their mobile devices is a worrying trend, it's not just teenagers.richardDodd said:BB63.. Just unplug everything..no need to go to France.. bliss forever..
As usual UKIP are taking a moral stance on behalf of humanity.0 -
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.0 -
Onwards to victory, comrade!
Some fear — and some hope — that 2016 will bring bad news for socialists and bad news for Jeremy Corbyn and his ideas. Let’s make it our new year’s resolution to work for 2016 being a year in which, despite the powerful forces of the Establishment ranged against us, hope and socialist politics enjoy further triumphs. Let’s ensure the spirit of the summer of 2015 never leaves us.
http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-602a-No-one-can-say-Youre-all-the-same-now#.Vnuu6xWLTIV
Richard Burgon is a shadow Treasury minister and MP for East Leeds.0 -
Well no not really. He is just pointing out how crass UKIP are.Patrick said:
Chill. It's just OGH trolling the BOOers as usual.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
It's not their problem, much as Remain try to portray it as their problem, because they wont get to make the choice.not_on_fire said:Have Leave come up with a coherent position on whether they want Britain to leave the EEA yet? If not, surely all this talk of "controlling our borders/EU immigration" is simply hokum as this is an EEA matter.
The wording of the referendum is:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
It doesn't mention EEA or any other solution, that is down to the government of the day to propose. It matters not a jot if LEAVE run on an EEA campaign, or a kipperesque "right out" campaign, because that is not what the referendum is on, and they are not the people that have to make that choice. In short, its balderdash.
0 -
He doesn't really need to with you posting regularly to put things in your elegant and thoughtful manner.flightpath01 said:
Well no not really. He is just pointing out how crass UKIP are.Patrick said:
Chill. It's just OGH trolling the BOOers as usual.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.0 -
In related news, BBC R5 mentioned earlier that a bunch of UK scientists have warned about the risks of Brexit for science.
I haven't been able to find anything on the BBC website, but here's an Indy article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-leading-uk-scientists-warn-against-consequences-of-brexit-a6784886.html0 -
Fine, but why campaign on "controlling our borders" if that is not going to be possible even if Leave wins?Indigo said:
It's not their problem, much as Remain try to portray it as their problem, because they wont get to make the choice.not_on_fire said:Have Leave come up with a coherent position on whether they want Britain to leave the EEA yet? If not, surely all this talk of "controlling our borders/EU immigration" is simply hokum as this is an EEA matter.
The wording of the referendum is:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
It doesn't mention EEA or any other solution, that is down to the government of the day to propose. It matters not a jot if LEAVE run on an EEA campaign, or a kipperesque "right out" campaign, because that is not what the referendum is on, and they are not the people that have to make that choice. In short, its balderdash.
0 -
It just that you "undecided" people seem to spend all your time ramping the Remain side, I don't think I have heard a single comment from either you or Mr Nabavi suggesting there are merits in the out side, which would lead even the most balanced observer to suggest that your position is at best disingenuous.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.0 -
Depends on what the government of the day decided to do. A kipper style out would take full control of the borders, by leaving the EU and the EEA, and leaving the jurisdiction of the EHCR, it may not be your cup of tea, it isn't necessarily mine either, but its a coherent view that meets the demands of a fair chunk of voters.not_on_fire said:
Fine, but why campaign on "controlling our borders" if that is not going to be possible even if Leave wins?Indigo said:
It's not their problem, much as Remain try to portray it as their problem, because they wont get to make the choice.not_on_fire said:Have Leave come up with a coherent position on whether they want Britain to leave the EEA yet? If not, surely all this talk of "controlling our borders/EU immigration" is simply hokum as this is an EEA matter.
The wording of the referendum is:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
It doesn't mention EEA or any other solution, that is down to the government of the day to propose. It matters not a jot if LEAVE run on an EEA campaign, or a kipperesque "right out" campaign, because that is not what the referendum is on, and they are not the people that have to make that choice. In short, its balderdash.0 -
If I were running the Remain campaign - with six months to go - I would let Leave continue to fight each other in public and act as UKIP does.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
Why interrupt your enemy in a mistake ? Or lots of mistakes?
Leave appear very voter unfriendly and the more the voters see of them...0 -
NOF The control of the UKs borders should be entirely a matter for the UK..Not any other organisation...one very good reason to leave.0
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"You "undecided" people..."Indigo said:
It just that you "undecided" people seem to spend all your time ramping the Remain side, I don't think I have heard a single comment from either you or Mr Nabavi suggesting there are merits in the out side, which would lead even the most balanced observer to suggest that your position is at best disingenuous.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
The undecideds comprise many more people than Navabi and Meeks.0 -
Nothing to do with the EU, but it's worth reposting this in light of Luke Akehurst's recent work on polling trends:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-case-of-the-missing-marginals/
What this shows is, using hard data, is of course what we already know - that Labour are piling up votes in the large English conurbations and South Wales, and losing ground rapidly elsewhere.
What interested me, looking at the map towards the foot of the post, is the very large number of marginal seats located in those areas where Corbyn is leaking votes. The West Midlands, for example, shows a large number of light reds (I make it 14) and Akehurst's data revealed a drop of nearly 11 points in the Labour vote. Meanwhile London, just about the only area where Labour's support has unambiguously risen, has at best three or four seats Labour could hope to take. I also make it about 10 seats in the Lancashire/Cumbria area that could be vulnerable, although the North East looks pretty solid (for Yorkshire, we don't have enough data to make a meaningful guess).
What does this suggest? Well, first of all we can rule out any Blair-style landslides for whatever random person succeeds the currentencumbranceincumbent of No. 10. There are not enough seats that are genuinely vulnerable to make that a practical possibility unless something really dramatic happens - a criminal prosecution of Corbyn or his chief lieutenants being about the only thing I can think of that might do it. What we can also safely rule out however unless something equally dramatic happens on the other side is anything other than a Conservative majority (or the Conservatives to be so big that no other party can form a government, which would amount to much the same thing as we saw after 2010). There are simply not enough places where Labour are winning votes to cause the Conservatives to have a significant net loss of seats.
(continued)0 -
(continued)
Although it is almost certainly true that many Labour voters are probably leaking either to fringe parties or away from politics altogether, rather than to the Conservatives, that is irrelevant - unless there is a direct switch from the Conservatives to Labour, and a very substantial one at that, Labour have no hope of winning more seats than they already hold. This, in itself, reveals the error of the Nick Palmer strategy - vote for Corbyn to stem the Green tide - in brutal relief. Indeed, an average of recent polls suggests that the Green vote has risen slightly (between 3-5%, with more at the top end, rather than the 3.8% they got at the election) which would indicate Labour voters are going to the Greens and not the other way around.
Things could change if Corbyn is forced out by some means next year, very difficult though that would be: and of course the by-election numbers must be treated with caution because they are not a scientifically selected sample (not that the scientific way did too well in May)! But at the moment on the data we have, it's very difficult to see a way back for Labour at either the next election or the one after.0 -
I've long been saying a winning campaign for 'leave' would be : "Do you want to head where they're heading?"madasafish said:
If I were running the Remain campaign - with six months to go - I would let Leave continue to fight each other in public and act as UKIP does.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
Why interrupt your enemy in a mistake ? Or lots of mistakes?
Leave appear very voter unfriendly and the more the voters see of them...
Equally, a winning campaign for 'remain' might be: "Do you trust our future to these eejits?"0 -
Leave does seem to be actively trying to repel anyone not already converted. They are, ironically, campaigning quite effectively for Remain.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
Remain's own campaign has been hapless.0 -
Totally agree, and I'm voting Leave. In spite of them.madasafish said:
If I were running the Remain campaign - with six months to go - I would let Leave continue to fight each other in public and act as UKIP does.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
Why interrupt your enemy in a mistake ? Or lots of mistakes?
Leave appear very voter unfriendly and the more the voters see of them...0 -
they could just rerun the sitcom "duty free" in its entireity, for a vision of a non EU europeJosiasJessop said:
Equally, a winning campaign for 'remain' might be: "Do you trust our future to these eejits?" 0 -
Presumably it triggered one of Facebook's automated flagging things. Hopefully their page will be restored soon, I do like a pub with a funny (for a ten year old) name..blackburn63 said:
I just read that in the Indy as well! I thought about mentioning it but thought there must be more to it.Plato_Says said:
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I don't believe anybody on this site is undecided, in the same way I wouldn't believe them if they said shortly before the GE they weren't sure who to vote for.Indigo said:
It just that you "undecided" people seem to spend all your time ramping the Remain side, I don't think I have heard a single comment from either you or Mr Nabavi suggesting there are merits in the out side, which would lead even the most balanced observer to suggest that your position is at best disingenuous.AlastairMeeks said:
I haven't peered into Richard Nabavi's soul so I can't perform a comparative exercise for you.Indigo said:
Are you as undecided as Mr Nabavi then ?AlastairMeeks said:
My decision will be made on the vision of Britain's future that most appeals to me (or, more accurately, that sounds least appalling). That's unlikely to be articulated by anyone campaigning for telecoms companies to be given untrammelled rights to gouge their customer base because the alternative is to let your opponents claim a minor victory.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If people decide their votes based on this, we may well be entering an Angeli period of decay.
It's like deciding whether to retain the union based on train ticket prices.
I realise that it is very hard for zealots to comprehend but undecided people think quite differently from you. But they are the ones you need to persuade. Both sides in the campaign are doing a terrible job of this. Remain is utterly ineffectual. Leave seems to be seeking actively to deter the undecideds.
Some on here are pretending to be undecided whilst in mortal fear of Cameron recommending Leave, some others are going through an intellectual farce of weighing up the arguments when it's obvious they'll vote Leave.
What is clear is that plenty will vote In rather than see Farage "win", in a democracy that's their right but it's as shallow a position as I can imagine.
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There's a village up the way from me called Blackboys. Can you imagine all the fuss they've had over the years?!RobD said:
Presumably it triggered one of Facebook's automated flagging things. Hopefully their page will be restored soon, I do like a pub with a funny (for a ten year old) name..blackburn63 said:
I just read that in the Indy as well! I thought about mentioning it but thought there must be more to it.Plato_Says said:0
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