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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » While latest polling might not be good for Corbyn it also r

SystemSystem Posts: 11,694
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » While latest polling might not be good for Corbyn it also raises questions over Osborne

Basically there is an exhaustive ballot of MPs to choose two of their number whose names will go forward to the membership in a secret postal ballot. Given that so many of the blue team at Westminster owe their positions to Osborne it is highly likely that he’ll make the final cut. The issue is whether the membership will back him.

Read the full story here


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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    First!
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited December 2015
    I thought Fridays were bad enough but this is dredging a new low.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Typical of tim (late of this parish) to try and look at Osborne in the most negative way possible.. after all he's dedicated his entire twitter feed to slagging him off.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    And tim is back!! (albeit in the header.....)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    Long-post curse of new thread....

    FPT:

    On the topic of movies:

    Inside Out - quite brilliant. A work of genius by Pixar.

    Steve Jobs - some superb dialogue, but structural issues (following the launch of each new project was very restricting. It felt and looked like a piece of filmed theatre.) Fassbender is good in the leading role - but not awards good.

    The Revenant - a story of trappers in the snowy wastes of north America in the early 1800's, apparently based on a true story. It is beautifully filmed (worth the extreme measures they went to on location) - and the director (Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu, who last did Birdman) stands a real shot at the Directors awards. But at two and a half hours, it is just way too long. di Caprio will no doubt get an Oscar nomination. He'll deserve it - it was clealy a gruelling film to make. It is hard watching in places - and not one for horse lovers! That said, there is one utterly astonishing moment that literally took my breath away.

    The Hateful Eight - a Tarantino movie is always something to look forward to. One with eight bounty hunters trapped in a snowbound store, with a prisoner who has a ten thousand bucks bounty on her head - that was always promising. And I adored Django Unchained. Sadly, this movie is no Django. Another long movie, at close on two and a half hours, it feels like a much earlier work. The tone is uneven - a gross-out Stand By Me/Witches of Eastwick barforama for example seemed straight out of a student movie. Unusually, Samuel L. Jackson gives a not great performance. Maybe you will enjoy it more if you go into it without high expectations.

    Another evening of movie watching to come - will let you know what I thought....
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    Is Osborne still Chancellor?

    I thought he would have resigned after hiring Coulson or crying at Thatcher's funeral.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Is Osborne still Chancellor?

    I thought he would have resigned after hiring Coulson or crying at Thatcher's funeral.

    Did he have any involvement with Latvian Homophobes?


    LOUISE!!!!!!!!!
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    Typical of tim (late of this parish) to try and look at Osborne in the most negative way possible.. after all he's dedicated his entire twitter feed to slagging him off.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    He's dead right on those Osborne numbers.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    I'm pretty sure Osborne is the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    edited December 2015
    It's nice to see the ghost of tim (=GOsborneGenius) on the site. As usual he raises a pithy provocative point. I'm not sure that the Tories will feel entirely relaxed about being just 5 points up at the moment, either - it's an OK score, but it's not only new Labour leaders who normally get a honeymoon, re-elected governments sometimes do too.

    On the movie front, I saw the last Mockingbird part last night - having enjoyed the books, I was curious how they'd do it. It's pretty close to the novels, making it curiously downbeat for a mass-market thriller. The import of some smash-bang special effects was an irritating innovation for the series (they're not going to get the Bond market anyway) but otherwise it was a good nuanced production.

    Also finished The Bridge on BBC4 - distinctly bloodier than the earlier ones, but stylish as usual and Saga is always good fun. At one point her lover says something ambiguous about sex and gets the following exchange:

    "Were you asking if you're the best lover I've had?"
    "Er, no. But if I were to ask..."
    "No. You aren't."

    in her usual polite "You wished for information?" manner. I thought that this series was a bit short on detection breakthroughs - a lot of the case is solved serendipitously, with a bit of help from the murderer. It's not clear if there will be a sequel - the author hasn't yet decided.

    The latest Homeland series finishes next week - still pretty controversial by European standards, but gripping anyway, with an ingenious nasty Russian double agent stealing some of the drama highlight from Kerry.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Yeesh, that's be a troublesome split if it was all voters, but just CON ones?
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    dear oh dear what a weak excuse for a thread
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Typical of tim (late of this parish) to try and look at Osborne in the most negative way possible.. after all he's dedicated his entire twitter feed to slagging him off.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    He's dead right on those Osborne numbers.


    Couldn't the DKs simply be people waiting to make up their minds i.e. whether or not they vote Osborne depends on who else is standing.? After all, a lot of people assumed that David Davis would be the shoo-in after Howard until a young Mr Cameron appeared from nowhere.......

    I'm not a particular fan of Osborne but I don't dislike him in the way others seem to, which seems a bit unhinged to me - but I do know people who have worked him with closely and they speak highly of him. They are people whose opinion I trust so that may colour my view.

    I do not see Hammond or May or Boris as serious alternatives, TBH. May has even less of the common touch. Hammond is too dull and will not inspire and Boris is, I think, past it. With him, it's too much about him and his performance rather than about us.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2015
    Osborne's odds are too short, but probably not a lot too short. The market started by underestimating him (in my portfolio is a bet at 16/1 from Feb 2014, and as recently as June of this year you could back him at 6/1, or 7/1 on Next PM). Now the market is underestimating the chance of an upset. In particular, on past form the initial selection by MPs will be heavily gamed, and could easily produce a surprise alternative to Osborne.
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    Given a choice between Osborne and Corbyn for PM, I'd guess that Tim would vote for Osborne.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Could someone please hurry up and derail this thin gruel space filling header?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GeoffM said:

    Could someone please hurry up and derail this thin gruel space filling header?

    Bah humbug.

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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    What happened to the Farron surge, or has he been swept away by all those flood waters in Westmorland and Cumberland?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    Given a choice between Osborne and Corbyn for PM, I'd guess that Tim would vote for Osborne.

    It would be all tim's wet dreams come at once if he could live blog the Decline and Fall of Prime Minister George Osborne.....
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2015
    On this Opinium question, Corbyn is slightly more of a hit with swing voters than Osborne is.

    Osborne swings 3% of the Labour vote to him, while he swings 4% of the Tory vote over to Corbyn.

    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.
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    TomTom Posts: 273
    As an outsider i think it would be best for the Conservatives if they don't get into a 'anyone can beat Corbyn' so we can select anyone' attitude. People's perceptions of a leader are probably more important than they've ever been and with their current opportunity it would be foolish to select Osborne as leader if his numbers are as bad in two/three years time as they are now.

    Things can change quickly as we saw in Scotland and there is clearly less loyalty to parties than there has ever been.

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    This thread is 100% click bait....
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Calling tim:
    come back to the bear pit.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    malcolmg said:

    I see the surge is unabated
    TNS consituency figures for the under 65s:
    SNP 65% Lab 20% Con 9%
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Ik-gKDMpozRlFtcVA5X29kUE0/view?pref=2&pli=1 … table 2 page 4

    This narrative that the Forth Road Bridge (problems caused by Labour under Liberal sewardship) would somehow undermine the SNP seems to be somewhat overcooked.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Osborne is Mr Smug. You don't why you dislike him but you do.

    He's a non-starter for that reason.

    At least with Jezza, there's a lot of reasons to dislike him.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    CD13 said:

    Osborne is Mr Smug. You don't why you dislike him but you do.

    He's a non-starter for that reason.

    At least with Jezza, there's a lot of reasons to dislike him.

    He looks and sounds like a Bond villain.

    Us politicos can gnash our teeth at how shallow the public are to judge politicians in those terms, but fair or not, that's the reality.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2015
    Danny565 said:

    CD13 said:

    Osborne is Mr Smug. You don't why you dislike him but you do.

    He's a non-starter for that reason.

    At least with Jezza, there's a lot of reasons to dislike him.

    He looks and sounds like a Bond villain.

    Us politicos can gnash our teeth at how shallow the public are to judge politicians in those terms, but fair or not, that's the reality.
    He looks and sounds like quite a crappy Bond villain. More nick your wallet at the cash machine than global domination.
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    Danny565 said:


    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.

    Who?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    I like the way the following is phrased

    https://twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/678898983482298369

    BTW, This thread is what one has come to expect over the Christmas Season.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2015

    Danny565 said:


    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.

    Who?
    People have been confidently predicting Tory landslides at the next election, while at the same time predicting Osborne to be next leader.

    To be sure, I find it very hard to imagine the public electing Corbyn as PM - but I find it no harder to imagine than the idea that people who didn't even vote for Cameron would EVER be willing to vote for Osborne. The latter lacks so many of the former's strengths in terms of public perceptions.
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    Of course, if the party membership vote hadn't been there, Davis may well have won off the back of MPs votes in 2005.

    I view my own party's membership as an asset, not a "problem".
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    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Danny565 said:

    On this Opinium question, Corbyn is slightly more of a hit with swing voters than Osborne is.

    Osborne swings 3% of the Labour vote to him, while he swings 4% of the Tory vote over to Corbyn.

    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.

    I think Osborne could do that simply because he'll be up against a weaker Labour leader. Also, Cameron hasn't set that high a bar. If Osborne got a majority of 20 he'd have done better (though you could argue - correctly - it was less of an achievement).
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:


    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.

    Who?
    People have been confidently predicting Tory landslides at the next election, while at the same time predicting Osborne to be next leader.

    To be sure, I find it very hard to imagine the public electing Corbyn as PM - but I find it no harder to imagine than the idea that people who didn't even vote for Cameron would EVER be willing to vote for Osborne. The latter lacks so many of the former's strengths in terms of public perceptions.
    I think the real question was "who". :D
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    Danny565 said:

    CD13 said:

    Osborne is Mr Smug. You don't why you dislike him but you do.

    He's a non-starter for that reason.

    At least with Jezza, there's a lot of reasons to dislike him.

    He looks and sounds like a Bond villain.

    Us politicos can gnash our teeth at how shallow the public are to judge politicians in those terms, but fair or not, that's the reality.
    I really hope the picture in the thread header isn't his sex face.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2015

    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    Don't forget hookers, blow, Latvian homophobes, Osborne crying, Cameron's horse and all the other recycled "greatest" hits....and for old timers, he can give us an update how fantasy farming is treating him ;-)

    Poor lad, out there in the twitter wilderness, ranting away to his ~100 followers. Even the library teaboy, who is wrong on everything, has managed to build some sort of following.
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    RobD said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:


    Yet there's still PBTories who somehow think Osborne as leader has a chance of outdoing Cameron's General Election performances.

    Who?
    People have been confidently predicting Tory landslides at the next election, while at the same time predicting Osborne to be next leader.

    To be sure, I find it very hard to imagine the public electing Corbyn as PM - but I find it no harder to imagine than the idea that people who didn't even vote for Cameron would EVER be willing to vote for Osborne. The latter lacks so many of the former's strengths in terms of public perceptions.
    I think the real question was "who". :D
    Its people or some mysterious "PB Tories".
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    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    I'd love to see that one. (Incidentally, on the rare occasion tim was given a header slot, they were really rather good - better for being less baiting than his BTL replies.)
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2015
    @GOsborneGenius

    TWEETS
    9,570

    Sigh...
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    One shouldn't underestimate politicians' egos but Osborne does seem quite self-aware and also a realist about the ground rules. He'll know that he can't change his public image at this stage. So, will he stand?

    If he doesn't, would he be decisive as a kingmaker? I would think that his endorsement could get someone into the last two but would the membership care what Osborne thought? A lot of Tories seem to view him as not truly one of the tribe (and, indeed, I'm not sure he is).
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    The tables for the TNS Scotland poll make very worrying reading for Loyalists.

    http://www.tnsglobal.co.uk/press-release/snp-shrugs-opposition-attacks-increase-holyrood-poll-lead

    Davidson looks to have picked the wrong list with the Tories doing better in Glasgow than Lothian and the Greens looking like they are good for at least two MSPs from Lothian alone. If the Tory vote slips even a little then Davidson could be out of a job my May.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Dair said:

    The tables for the TNS Scotland poll make very worrying reading for Loyalists.

    http://www.tnsglobal.co.uk/press-release/snp-shrugs-opposition-attacks-increase-holyrood-poll-lead

    Davidson looks to have picked the wrong list with the Tories doing better in Glasgow than Lothian and the Greens looking like they are good for at least two MSPs from Lothian alone. If the Tory vote slips even a little then Davidson could be out of a job my May.

    Unionists, don't you mean?
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited December 2015
    Dair said:

    The tables for the TNS Scotland poll make very worrying reading for Loyalists.

    http://www.tnsglobal.co.uk/press-release/snp-shrugs-opposition-attacks-increase-holyrood-poll-lead

    Davidson looks to have picked the wrong list with the Tories doing better in Glasgow than Lothian and the Greens looking like they are good for at least two MSPs from Lothian alone. If the Tory vote slips even a little then Davidson could be out of a job my May.

    A good by-election somewhere and given George's problems she could be your next Prime Minister before you know it :-)
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited December 2015
    RobD said:

    Dair said:

    The tables for the TNS Scotland poll make very worrying reading for Loyalists.

    http://www.tnsglobal.co.uk/press-release/snp-shrugs-opposition-attacks-increase-holyrood-poll-lead

    Davidson looks to have picked the wrong list with the Tories doing better in Glasgow than Lothian and the Greens looking like they are good for at least two MSPs from Lothian alone. If the Tory vote slips even a little then Davidson could be out of a job my May.

    Unionists, don't you mean?
    That one's not for feeding.
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    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    Don't forget hookers, blow, Latvian homophobes, Osborne crying, Cameron's horse and all the other recycled "greatest" hits....and for old timers, he can give us an update how fantasy farming is treating him ;-)

    Poor lad, out there in the twitter wilderness, ranting away to his ~100 followers. Even the library teaboy, who is wrong on everything, has managed to build some sort of following.
    Its a long long time to 2020 and judging the public's opinion of Osborn then is something of a lottery now.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Support for Trident is also falling away further.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/679020671351971840
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    runnymede said:

    dear oh dear what a weak excuse for a thread

    Have you thought of starting your own blog with three new stories a day? If not, we know how to assess your grumbling...
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Dair said:

    Support for Trident is also falling away further.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/679020671351971840

    Genuine question: is that opposition to nuclear weapons in general, or opposition to nuclear weapons being stationed in Scotland?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Danny565 said:

    Dair said:

    Support for Trident is also falling away further.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/679020671351971840

    Genuine question: is that opposition to nuclear weapons in general, or opposition to nuclear weapons being stationed in Scotland?
    Or opposition to pay for a replacement.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    Don't forget hookers, blow, Latvian homophobes, Osborne crying, Cameron's horse and all the other recycled "greatest" hits....and for old timers, he can give us an update how fantasy farming is treating him ;-)

    Poor lad, out there in the twitter wilderness, ranting away to his ~100 followers. Even the library teaboy, who is wrong on everything, has managed to build some sort of following.
    Its a long long time to 2020 and judging the public's opinion of Osborn then is something of a lottery now.
    OK. I would have said the opposite: that he's been in the public eye so long that views of him are quite fixed. Do you think opinion could change in his favour? Or that enough people simply haven't thought about him yet?
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    A good summation of the UK's political media in regards to Scotland

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/tis-the-season-to-be-trolling/

    In the real world you don’t get to claim victimhood because you’re a hopelessly incompetent mendacious clown, but you do if you’re a Unionist in Scotland. And their trolling bleats of complaint are presented in all seriousness by a media which lost the plot years ago. It’s the fault of the SNP that Labour in Scotland are clueless balloons.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    ICM

    Dec 2014 Con 28 Lab 33
    May 2015 Con 34 Lab 35
    Dec 2015 Con 39 Lab 34
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    RobD said:


    I think the real question was "who". :D

    Its people or some mysterious "PB Tories".
    Mystery solved.


    If Corbyn wins it will accelerate the realignment on the left that has been needed in the UK for a number of years now. So while it will clearly be very bad news in the short to medium term for Labour, it may well be much better news for the centre left generally further down the line. His victory will do two things:
    - It will kill off the remaining ministerial flotsam of the Blair/Brown years.
    - It will demonstrate that a far left prospectus cannot deliver power.

    Both are very necessary. And there is a chance that it could all happen pretty swiftly. As soon as Corbyn wins, it the careers of Burnham, Cooper and other ex-ministers come to an end. Then Corbyn-led Labour will be smashed in Scotland next year by the SNP, could see severe setbacks in Wales and is likely to be hammered in the English local elections. Where then the argument that the only reason Labour gets beaten is because it is too right wing?

    I think Dan Jarvis is now more than likely to be leading Labour in 2020. But if I am wrong and it is Jezza, Labour will be replaced as the main party on the centre left in the 2025 election.


    A very similar assessment to my own, SO. My only divergence is on Dan Jarvis. Yet to hear if he would be in the running by then - and even if he is, would he fare any better than Liz Kendall has this time around?

    Source: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/21/yougov-poll-finds-corbyn-beating-burnham-in-the-final-round/
    Financier said:


    I am viewing 2015 as the first Tory victory (majority) for 23 years so expect them to win again in 2020. Labour will be back after that

    From: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/19/how-snp-supporters-could-sabotage-the-eu-referendum/

    Even Mike on a recent thread said "From where I stand there are two ways that Corbyn could be brought down. The first is a growing realisation from polling and elections results that the Tories are a certainty for GE2020 and that the red team will be out of power till at least 2025. Nearly ten years is an awful long time."
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    Osborne's odds are too short, but probably not a lot too short. The market started by underestimating him (in my portfolio is a bet at 16/1 from Feb 2014, and as recently as June of this year you could back him at 6/1, or 7/1 on Next PM). Now the market is underestimating the chance of an upset. In particular, on past form the initial selection by MPs will be heavily gamed, and could easily produce a surprise alternative to Osborne.

    Based on Osborne's support he might be able to game it to pick his own opponent.

    However I am operating on a working assumption of a final two of Osborne & (ex-Leave Leader) May.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    edited December 2015
    Freggles said:

    RobD said:


    I think the real question was "who". :D

    Its people or some mysterious "PB Tories".
    Mystery solved.


    If Corbyn wins it will accelerate the realignment on the left that has been needed in the UK for a number of years now. So while it will clearly be very bad news in the short to medium term for Labour, it may well be much better news for the centre left generally further down the line. His victory will do two things:
    - It will kill off the remaining ministerial flotsam of the Blair/Brown years.
    - It will demonstrate that a far left prospectus cannot deliver power.

    Both are very necessary. And there is a chance that it could all happen pretty swiftly. As soon as Corbyn wins, it the careers of Burnham, Cooper and other ex-ministers come to an end. Then Corbyn-led Labour will be smashed in Scotland next year by the SNP, could see severe setbacks in Wales and is likely to be hammered in the English local elections. Where then the argument that the only reason Labour gets beaten is because it is too right wing?

    I think Dan Jarvis is now more than likely to be leading Labour in 2020. But if I am wrong and it is Jezza, Labour will be replaced as the main party on the centre left in the 2025 election.


    A very similar assessment to my own, SO. My only divergence is on Dan Jarvis. Yet to hear if he would be in the running by then - and even if he is, would he fare any better than Liz Kendall has this time around?

    Source: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/21/yougov-poll-finds-corbyn-beating-burnham-in-the-final-round/
    Financier said:


    I am viewing 2015 as the first Tory victory (majority) for 23 years so expect them to win again in 2020. Labour will be back after that

    From: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/19/how-snp-supporters-could-sabotage-the-eu-referendum/

    Even Mike on a recent thread said "From where I stand there are two ways that Corbyn could be brought down. The first is a growing realisation from polling and elections results that the Tories are a certainty for GE2020 and that the red team will be out of power till at least 2025. Nearly ten years is an awful long time."
    Fifteen years (at the end of 2025), surely? What a time to be alive.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    chestnut said:

    ICM

    Dec 2014 Con 28 Lab 33
    May 2015 Con 34 Lab 35
    Dec 2015 Con 39 Lab 34

    The December 2014 "best PM" polls gave Cameron a far bigger lead over Miliband, than current polls give Osborne's lead over Corbyn.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,953
    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Danny565 said:

    Dair said:

    Support for Trident is also falling away further.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/679020671351971840

    Genuine question: is that opposition to nuclear weapons in general, or opposition to nuclear weapons being stationed in Scotland?
    Impossible to say, it's just opposition to renewal and no doubt includes a wide gamut of opinions within.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    I think that's the idea.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    RobD said:


    Fifteen years (at the end of 2025), surely? What a time to be alive.

    Ten years of pure unadulterated Tories, fifteen if you include the awkward Inbetweeners phase.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Osborne's odds are too short, but probably not a lot too short. The market started by underestimating him (in my portfolio is a bet at 16/1 from Feb 2014, and as recently as June of this year you could back him at 6/1, or 7/1 on Next PM). Now the market is underestimating the chance of an upset. In particular, on past form the initial selection by MPs will be heavily gamed, and could easily produce a surprise alternative to Osborne.

    Based on Osborne's support he might be able to game it to pick his own opponent.

    However I am operating on a working assumption of a final two of Osborne & (ex-Leave Leader) May.
    I'm also thinking that and expecting May to win.

    I'm really casting around trying to understand what other scenarios are likely.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,957
    I have laid Flamini First Player booked tonight at 6.7 on Betfair and he is a double figure price w the bookies

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited December 2015
    @MikeSmithson


    He's dead right on those Osborne numbers.


    Can anyone trust the polls after the shambles in May ?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,865

    It's nice to see the ghost of tim (=GOsborneGenius) on the site. As usual he raises a pithy provocative point. I'm not sure that the Tories will feel entirely relaxed about being just 5 points up at the moment, either - it's an OK score, but it's not only new Labour leaders who normally get a honeymoon, re-elected governments sometimes do too.

    On the movie front, I saw the last Mockingbird part last night - having enjoyed the books, I was curious how they'd do it. It's pretty close to the novels, making it curiously downbeat for a mass-market thriller. The import of some smash-bang special effects was an irritating innovation for the series (they're not going to get the Bond market anyway) but otherwise it was a good nuanced production.

    Also finished The Bridge on BBC4 - distinctly bloodier than the earlier ones, but stylish as usual and Saga is always good fun. At one point her lover says something ambiguous about sex and gets the following exchange:

    "Were you asking if you're the best lover I've had?"
    "Er, no. But if I were to ask..."
    "No. You aren't."

    in her usual polite "You wished for information?" manner. I thought that this series was a bit short on detection breakthroughs - a lot of the case is solved serendipitously, with a bit of help from the murderer. It's not clear if there will be a sequel - the author hasn't yet decided.

    The latest Homeland series finishes next week - still pretty controversial by European standards, but gripping anyway, with an ingenious nasty Russian double agent stealing some of the drama highlight from Kerry.

    I think you mean Mockingjay, but I agree, the Hunger Games trilogy is very good. I think it's a superb depiction of a highly intelligent, poorly educated, woman, who's suffered for years from PTSD, as well as a gripping adventure story. I think what's lacking in many similar stories is the depiction of the psycological damage that people suffer from war and torture (eg Johanna, who can hardly take a shower, because she was soaked in water and subject to electric shocks).

    One trilogy I'm reading which I think you may like is the Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2015
    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson


    He's dead right on those Osborne numbers.


    Can anyone trust the pols after the shambles in May ?

    The "best PM" polls were very good at predicting May's result (in fact, the 10%+ lead Cameron consistently got on that measure was too flattering to the Tories).
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.
    Since an antonym of 'loyalist' is 'traitor', I suppose you don't mind being referred to as a traitor? And as the majority of Scotland voted 'No', you are a traitor against Scotland.

    Obviously you won't object to being referred to in such a manner, as you are perfectly willing to use such loaded terminology the other way.

    So traitor, how are you today?
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    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.

    A Loyalist sings the national anthem:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA17CsRffXI

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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    john_zims said:

    @MikeSmithson


    He's dead right on those Osborne numbers.


    Can anyone trust the polls after the shambles in May ?

    Yes. The errors in VI polls in May weren't random, after all. They followed a pattern of overstating Labour seen at every election since the 80s, barring 2010. We shouldn't see polls as just random number generators.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,865
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.
    Think of Scotland's future, and what does it portend? A loyalist boot grinding into a nationalist face ...... Forever.
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    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    I don't think Osborne as Tory leader will change anything.
    Barring any event the 2020 result will be the 2015 result.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,056

    Danny565 said:

    CD13 said:

    Osborne is Mr Smug. You don't why you dislike him but you do.

    He's a non-starter for that reason.

    At least with Jezza, there's a lot of reasons to dislike him.

    He looks and sounds like a Bond villain.

    Us politicos can gnash our teeth at how shallow the public are to judge politicians in those terms, but fair or not, that's the reality.
    I really hope the picture in the thread header isn't his sex face.
    Perhaps Anna Soubry mistook him for Nigel Farage ...
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    Sean_F said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.
    Think of Scotland's future, and what does it portend? A loyalist boot grinding into a nationalist face ...... Forever.

    More to the point, Dair loves Scotland so much he hates over 50% of its population and is waiting for its old people to die. His perspective augurs well for the kind of solidarity and cohesiveness we can expect should the oil price ever recover enough to make independence a realistic proposition once more.

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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    chestnut said:
    10 years of cheap oil here we come.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    Sigh.

    That's what he's trying to do: equate support for the Union with the more thuggish (or downright illegal) aspects of the Protestant Loyalists.

    It's wrong, of course, divisive and sectarian. But that's what he's trying to achieve.
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    Apols if already posted.

    Immigration no longer the most important issue according to Ipsos Mori.

    Leave really should listen to me :lol:

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3673/EconomistIpsos-MORI-December-2015-Issues-Index.aspx
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    Osborne isn't going to define himself on whether he becomes PM or not. Neither for that matter is Boris, or Theresa May. Perhaps others too. They're all broadly 'up for it', but they aren't focusing on that goal above all else.

    I don't really believe that the Tory leadership race will be allowed to interfere with the 2020 election. There's a massive and difficult hurdle before that with the EU, and if the Tories can negotiate that it'd be beyond daft to trip themselves up thereafter. With Corbyn at the Labour helm it should be a fairly straight run home.

    The five year election cycle is having an effect on parties of all ilks. I imagine that both red and blue strategists are casting an envious eye at all that fresh raw material that the SNP have. Some is dross clearly, but there's the odd diamond being discovered. (Apologies to geologists).

    Labour haven't had a great deal of new blood since 1997 - winning big has an enormous downside to that extent.

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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    Britain doesn't have free speech, you must be referring to the USA.
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    TomTom Posts: 273
    Omnium said:

    Osborne isn't going to define himself on whether he becomes PM or not. Neither for that matter is Boris, or Theresa May. Perhaps others too. They're all broadly 'up for it', but they aren't focusing on that goal above all else.

    I don't really believe that the Tory leadership race will be allowed to interfere with the 2020 election. There's a massive and difficult hurdle before that with the EU, and if the Tories can negotiate that it'd be beyond daft to trip themselves up thereafter. With Corbyn at the Labour helm it should be a fairly straight run home.

    The five year election cycle is having an effect on parties of all ilks. I imagine that both red and blue strategists are casting an envious eye at all that fresh raw material that the SNP have. Some is dross clearly, but there's the odd diamond being discovered. (Apologies to geologists).

    Labour haven't had a great deal of new blood since 1997 - winning big has an enormous downside to that extent.

    You seriously think Osborne won't define himself on whether he becomes PM or not. Or Boris? You must be joking.
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    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair Every time you say the word "loyalist" I always get a mental image of an Orange Order parade :o

    They are British Nationalists as well, all Loyalists marching to the same drum.

    I don't pretend that it is an unintended consequence of using the term.
    Since an antonym of 'loyalist' is 'traitor', I suppose you don't mind being referred to as a traitor? And as the majority of Scotland voted 'No', you are a traitor against Scotland.

    Obviously you won't object to being referred to in such a manner, as you are perfectly willing to use such loaded terminology the other way.

    So traitor, how are you today?
    Well said.
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    Apols if already posted.

    Immigration no longer the most important issue according to Ipsos Mori.

    Leave really should listen to me :lol:

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3673/EconomistIpsos-MORI-December-2015-Issues-Index.aspx

    We've just gone to war on (Radical) Islam, and you are after-timing this?
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2015

    Apols if already posted.

    Immigration no longer the most important issue according to Ipsos Mori.

    Leave really should listen to me :lol:

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3673/EconomistIpsos-MORI-December-2015-Issues-Index.aspx

    Terrorism, foreign policy and then immigration. :smiley:

    A UKIP full house.

    NHS is the most important issue for just 8% of people.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2015
    Most important Issue Index

    Nuclear Weapons = 0%
    Nationalisation = 0%

    Issues of Some Importance

    Nuclear Weapons = 3%
    Nationalisation = 3%

    Corbyn's 3% strategy.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    Much though I would welcome Tim back onto the site this is pretty silly.
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    Wanderer said:

    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    Don't forget hookers, blow, Latvian homophobes, Osborne crying, Cameron's horse and all the other recycled "greatest" hits....and for old timers, he can give us an update how fantasy farming is treating him ;-)

    Poor lad, out there in the twitter wilderness, ranting away to his ~100 followers. Even the library teaboy, who is wrong on everything, has managed to build some sort of following.
    Its a long long time to 2020 and judging the public's opinion of Osborn then is something of a lottery now.
    OK. I would have said the opposite: that he's been in the public eye so long that views of him are quite fixed. Do you think opinion could change in his favour? Or that enough people simply haven't thought about him yet?
    People have not thought of him.
    A whole range of events could intervene.
    These events could help or hinder just about everyone connected with any leadership ambitions.
    Many many people have only the sketchiest knowledge of political personalities.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    Tom said:

    Omnium said:

    Osborne isn't going to define himself on whether he becomes PM or not. Neither for that matter is Boris, or Theresa May. Perhaps others too. They're all broadly 'up for it', but they aren't focusing on that goal above all else.

    I don't really believe that the Tory leadership race will be allowed to interfere with the 2020 election. There's a massive and difficult hurdle before that with the EU, and if the Tories can negotiate that it'd be beyond daft to trip themselves up thereafter. With Corbyn at the Labour helm it should be a fairly straight run home.

    The five year election cycle is having an effect on parties of all ilks. I imagine that both red and blue strategists are casting an envious eye at all that fresh raw material that the SNP have. Some is dross clearly, but there's the odd diamond being discovered. (Apologies to geologists).

    Labour haven't had a great deal of new blood since 1997 - winning big has an enormous downside to that extent.

    You seriously think Osborne won't define himself on whether he becomes PM or not. Or Boris? You must be joking.
    No - not joking at all. It's mostly luck, but they're not unaware of the fact that this'll seem like a period of wise government in the history books. The great Tory fear in the Blair years was that he might make it work! He had Brown along for the ride, so that was never likely, but nonetheless it's true.

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    sladeslade Posts: 1,932
    I have just watched a very disturbing interview on Ch 4 News with the principal organiser of the anti-Rhodes protest in Oxford. He clearly is highly intelligent but seems to have severe psychological problems. He could not cope with sitting next to a black women who disagreed with him. Never once did he look at her. And John Snow was pathetic in his response.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2015

    Wanderer said:

    For old times' sake Mike should invite tim back to do a guest slot, a review of the year. It could cover many of his favourite themes (Cameron is useless, George is clueless, the UK economy, Coulson, Miliband), and introduce us to his views on some of the new stuff (Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingstone, Seamas Milne, the future of the Labour Party....)

    Don't forget hookers, blow, Latvian homophobes, Osborne crying, Cameron's horse and all the other recycled "greatest" hits....and for old timers, he can give us an update how fantasy farming is treating him ;-)

    Poor lad, out there in the twitter wilderness, ranting away to his ~100 followers. Even the library teaboy, who is wrong on everything, has managed to build some sort of following.
    Its a long long time to 2020 and judging the public's opinion of Osborn then is something of a lottery now.
    OK. I would have said the opposite: that he's been in the public eye so long that views of him are quite fixed. Do you think opinion could change in his favour? Or that enough people simply haven't thought about him yet?
    People have not thought of him.
    A whole range of events could intervene.
    These events could help or hinder just about everyone connected with any leadership ambitions.
    Many many people have only the sketchiest knowledge of political personalities.
    So the public have a fixed, unshakeable view of Corbyn after 3 months which no intervening events could alter, yet they don't have a fixed, unshakeable view of Osborne after 5 years?
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,932
    slade said:

    I have just watched a very disturbing interview on Ch 4 News with the principal organiser of the anti-Rhodes protest in Oxford. He clearly is highly intelligent but seems to have severe psychological problems. He could not cope with sitting next to a black women who disagreed with him. Never once did he look at her. And John Snow was pathetic in his response.

    Sorry - some formatting problems with my post.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    What the hell is going on at universities. I am sure this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
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    MP_SE said:

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    What the hell is going on at universities. I am sure this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
    What exactly is the young women having a total and utter meltdown over? Something to do with a letter to do with Hallowen costumes?
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    MP_SE said:

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    What the hell is going on at universities. I am sure this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
    Sorry, I'm clearly missing something, but I don't see anything of note here. Could you explain?

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    chestnut said:

    Apols if already posted.

    Immigration no longer the most important issue according to Ipsos Mori.

    Leave really should listen to me :lol:

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3673/EconomistIpsos-MORI-December-2015-Issues-Index.aspx

    Terrorism, foreign policy and then immigration. :smiley:

    A UKIP full house.

    NHS is the most important issue for just 8% of people.
    Wait until they hear that there is only 24 hours to save the NHS... oh wait...
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    The whole thing with the Oxford statue. If the college had just stood firm and issued a sensible, logical and well thought out response to why it is a bonkers suggestion, all this would have gone away. Students are forever moaning about something or other. Yes it would have got a few articles in the Guardian, but nobody really cares outside of a very small niche.

    By basically giving in, they have now made a bigger story out of this and also hostage to fortune in regards to anything else from the past that somebody today doesn't agree with their morals. And lets be honest, Oxford and Cambridge is full of trappings of wealth granted to it, where by if you go looking hard enough, I am sure a huge percentage of people would have had activities or views that are no longer deemed acceptable.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,095
    Yet Osborne still led Corbyn by 24% to 21% with voters as a whole yesterday and throughout post-war history the Tories have only selected the Chancellor or Foreign Secretary to lead them suggesting the only viable alternative to Osborne is Hammond
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Omnium said:

    MP_SE said:

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    What the hell is going on at universities. I am sure this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
    Sorry, I'm clearly missing something, but I don't see anything of note here. Could you explain?

    An increase in stupid self-absorbed young adults who feel the need to demand safe spaces and stifle free speech as soon as their feelings are hurt or they disagree with something someone has said.

    MP_SE said:

    Off topic, this is where the limitation of free speech in favour of "safe spaces" ends up on student campuses if not challenged:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QqgNcktbSA

    What the hell is going on at universities. I am sure this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
    What exactly is the young women having a total and utter meltdown over? Something to do with a letter to do with Hallowen costumes?
    The young lady wanted the university to decide what halloween costumes can/can't be worn. The professor disagreed and she completely lost it.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,095
    Dair said:

    Support for Trident is also falling away further.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/679020671351971840

    If Thai is a Scottish poll that is actually a relationship relatively good result for Trident given previous polls and suggests support for a nuclear deterrent if perhaps a cheaper version than the Trident system
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Sean_F said:

    It's nice to see the ghost of tim (=GOsborneGenius) on the site. As usual he raises a pithy provocative point. I'm not sure that the Tories will feel entirely relaxed about being just 5 points up at the moment, either - it's an OK score, but it's not only new Labour leaders who normally get a honeymoon, re-elected governments sometimes do too.

    On the movie front, I saw the last Mockingbird part last night - having enjoyed the books, I was curious how they'd do it. It's pretty close to the novels, making it curiously downbeat for a mass-market thriller. The import of some smash-bang special effects was an irritating innovation for the series (they're not going to get the Bond market anyway) but otherwise it was a good nuanced production.

    Also finished The Bridge on BBC4 - distinctly bloodier than the earlier ones, but stylish as usual and Saga is always good fun. At one point her lover says something ambiguous about sex and gets the following exchange:

    "Were you asking if you're the best lover I've had?"
    "Er, no. But if I were to ask..."
    "No. You aren't."

    in her usual polite "You wished for information?" manner. I thought that this series was a bit short on detection breakthroughs - a lot of the case is solved serendipitously, with a bit of help from the murderer. It's not clear if there will be a sequel - the author hasn't yet decided.

    The latest Homeland series finishes next week - still pretty controversial by European standards, but gripping anyway, with an ingenious nasty Russian double agent stealing some of the drama highlight from Kerry.

    I think you mean Mockingjay, but I agree, the Hunger Games trilogy is very good. I think it's a superb depiction of a highly intelligent, poorly educated, woman, who's suffered for years from PTSD, as well as a gripping adventure story. I think what's lacking in many similar stories is the depiction of the psycological damage that people suffer from war and torture

    I think that is rather intentional, and given the number of such tales, a good thing - every now and then I like to see that, it can make a story really deep and impactful, but as a rule it'd just be depressing and not at all fun to read/watch if most stories explored those implications properly.
This discussion has been closed.