politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Turning on taxes. The tectonic plates of Scotland’s politic
Comments
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Very good piece by Alastair. It's usually difficult to find the time to read such a long piece early in the morning but this was worth the time0
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Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
Yes that was hard to explain. It seemed UKIP were saying Scotland would still not be independent as a province of the EU, but surely that is the choice that an independent country gets to make?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
Tbh I'm not interested if they're capable of running their affairs, that's subjective, but I have sympathy with those who want to have a go. I realise that's pedantic but in the spirit of libertarianism I hope you agree.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
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That's true. The leadership of that campaign never even really got around to answering why they wanted to remain in the UK, especially when it has a Tory government. The good people of Scotland voted to remain in the UK despite most of the efforts of Better Together, not because of them.AlastairMeeks said:My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
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UKIP would have to change their name if they promoted the disunification of the united kingdoms.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
I think the main UKIP criticism of the Scottish independence movement is that it's a misnomer in that it's slavishly pro-EU/ Brussels rule.0 -
Yes, but he also got other things right too: he was advocating a free market approach to the economy, liberalisation and control of inflation in the 1960s in the Tory party, way before Thatcher or any of the monetarists.rcs1000 said:
It's funny: isam talks at length about prescient Enoch Powell was, and how we need to heed his lessons.Innocent_Abroad said:
It's Enoch Powell....JosiasJessop said:
Sounds like utter rubbish to me, especially where there are real and actual grievances.isam said:Regarding Trump...
'The Gresham’s law of extremism, that the more extreme drives out the less extreme, is one of the basic rules of political mechanics which operate in this field: it is a corollary of the general principle that no political power exists without being used.
Both the general law and its Gresham’s corollary point, in contemporary circumstances, towards the resort to physical violence, in the form of firearms or high explosive, as being so probable as to be predicted with virtual certainty. The experience of the last decade and more, all round the world, shows that acts of violence, however apparently irrational or inappropriate their targets, precipitate a frenzied search on the part of the society attacked to discover and remedy more and more grievances, real or imaginary, among those from the violence is supposed to emanate or on whose behalf it is supposed to be exercised. Those commanding a position of political leverage would then be superhuman if they could refrain from pointing to the acts of terrorism and, while condemning them, declaring that further and faster concessions and grants of privilege are the only means to avoid such acts being repeated on a rising scale. We know that those who thus argue will always find a ready hearing. This is what produces the gearing effect of terrorism in the contemporary world, yielding huge results from acts of violence perpetrated by minimal numbers. It is not, I repeat again and again, that the mass of a particular population are violently or criminally disposed. Far from it; that population soon becomes itself the prisoner of the violence and machinations of an infinitely small minority among it. Just a few thugs, a few shots, a few bombs at the right place and time—and that is enough for disproportionate consequences to
follow.'
http://traditionalbritain.org/blog/road-national-suicide/
While never mentioning the things he said that were batshit crazy. Like his view that, after the British Empire had rid the world of the Nazis, then it would have to do the same with the United States.
(I realise this is the view of Lovinputin1983)0 -
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.0 -
A tour de force:
You intend to vote SNP twice next year because you love democracy. You call the First Minister Nicola. You think Braveheart is a documentary. You have The National delivered directly to your ego and you live in a world where the next referendum is always around the corner – should the right crisis occur.
What a paragon of virtue you are. Except there is one thing you haven’t considered fully that I want to draw your hysterical attention to: the independent Scotland you dream of is actually no more moral, or just, than the Union.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/0 -
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
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The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.0 -
I think though, that if you did a quiz where you showed UKIP arguments to leave the EU, but blanked out the "Britain" and "EU", and did the same for "Scotland" and "UK" for SNP arguments, it would be hard to tell the differenceSouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
EDIT ...and as Pulpstar infers, I think UKIP are pretty opposed to the EU existing as an ideology, they want it to cease to exist0 -
Are you sure ?SouthamObserver said:UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology
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Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
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You certainly have a job that'd be a bit tricky to do from home
DavidL said:
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.0 -
I remain astounded by the armies of keyboard warriors roaming every part of the internet to defend the SNP. The story referred to seems (to me) to be clearly shitty behaviour by the Scottish Government:Scott_P said:@RuthDavidsonMSP: People of Hawick; you've spent 10 years asking for flood defenses, but the SNP say you 'need to take responsibility' https://t.co/LXVH6RfNG6
Hawick - we've begged you for defenses for a decade, and now we're knee-deep in water.
SNP - It's your own fault. Man up.
Yet under Ruth's tweet, there is post after post after post effectively saying that the SNP response was entirely reasonable and correct, that the government is not responsible for protecting your homes and livelihoods, and that Ruth is evil for "politicising the misery of others".
I know this shouldn't surprise me any more. But it does.0 -
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2015/dec/01/universal-credit-fail-tories-dwp-work-pay
"For all households with no dependent children, whether singles or couples, there will no longer be any work allowance. The effect on these groups will be stark: if they are unemployed and looking for work, their monthly payment of universal credit will be cut the moment they start working. "
Errm What in the actual is Emily trying to say here. Of course if you start work your benefits should be cut. But the headline of the article "Universal credit is undermining even the Tory ambition to make work pay " ??0 -
The irresistible dream meets the immovable budget constraint.
#SNP0 -
No, I'm not. My assumption is that UKIP don't like the EU because they think it does not work in Britain's interests and can't work in Britain's interests as it has been set up. But I could well be wrong.Pulpstar said:
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Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day
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The Scottish economy is facing a triple whammy at the present time.
Firstly, the on going shrinkage of the Financial Service sector and the RBS in particular has lost Scotland a significant percentage of its private sector higher rate tax payers.
Secondly, the collapse in north sea oil prices has drained money out of the whole Scottish economy, once again seriously affecting the tax base. The collapse in PRT is a UK problem but the collapse in spending power in Scotland affects housing, retail, restaurants and car sales. It hurts us all.
Thirdly, we now have massive disruption arising from the failure of one of our key infrastructure portals.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault but a grown up Scottish government has to deal with the consequences. Where are the next generation of HRT payers in the private sector to come from? That is what the next election should be about. How can we improve our infrastructure to attract business, reduce taxation on business to attract investment, improve our education so our children can be employable, ideally in Scotland?
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.0 -
Travel 1st class? ;-)Plato_Says said:You certainly have a job that'd be a bit tricky to do from home
DavidL said:
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.0 -
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.isam said:Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
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Transport Scotland should tell Abelio Scot Rail to get their act into gear.DavidL said:
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Who runs the former by the way?0 -
I access the vanilla forum in Firefox, and the comment box has icons just above it for the HTML tags...Anorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day0 -
Embarrassingly, I didn't know that!Anorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day0 -
And if you do Control S -
you get thisAnorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day0 -
I always d that because, to be honest, I can never remember the HTML instructions.Anorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day0 -
Wow, I did not know that either. It's a miracle.Anorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day
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I agree with Alastair about 2017 being the start of the SNP's decline, for another reason. 10 years after GE 1979 was the time moves really took off to end Thatcher's reign. 10 years in 2007 brought the end of Blair's Premiership and the end of the labour Govt. 2017 will be the 10th year of the SNP government. 2018 etc will therefore be downhill for them, although it may take 2 elections to end the SNP Govt depending upon how massive a majority they build up in 2016.0
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Really? The bridge is magnificent, but I've always thought the worst way of seeing it is from the train. The view over the water are obscured by the steelwork and you don't get to see the grandeur of the bridge itself.Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
Someone I knew once got the opportunity walk over the bridge's high girders. Lucky git.0 -
Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/0
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Plato_Says said:
And if you do Control S -
you get thisAnorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my dayFuck meBlimey, this is amazing.
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#TINA They have to abandon belief in magic money trees and fairies and face up to the budget constraint:DavidL said:
...
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
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It's going to be a day of bold and italic text, I fear
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Control u does thisSouthamObserver said:Plato_Says said:
And if you do Control S -
you get thisAnorak said:Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my dayFuck meBlimey, this is amazing.0 -
From what I've been reading elsewhere, it's not that easy. There's apparently a shortage of suitable rolling stock, and a lack of paths at the important times of day into Edinburgh itself.watford30 said:
Transport Scotland should tell Abelio Scot Rail to get their act into gear.DavidL said:
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).Casino_Royale said:
Why not take the train?DavidL said:
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.Plato_Says said:If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.Scott_P said:
Depends how long it stays shut.DavidL said:I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Who runs the former by the way?
In the days of loco-hauled rolling stock they'd just stick a few extra carriages on the end of a train. With set-formation DMU's and EMU's that we have nowadays, that is much harder to do in the short term.0 -
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.DavidL said:Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
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Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.isam said:
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
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Excellent and reasoned article as usual. I'm not going to read too far down the comments today, but I confidently guess that they are less reasoned and thoughtful in places.
I think the SNP do hope to continue to rely for as long as possible on being an opposition in exile rather than a government in Holyrood. They are, of course, both. For the SNP the voice they have in Westminster is the new factor that will perpetuate the opposition narrative, whilst the opposition within Scotland will seek to localise things. So, ironically, the nats will be more UK focussed and the unionists more Scotland focussed.
What the transfer of powers says to me is that 2017 is the likely time that the SNP will have to throw their dead cat on the table then to perpetuate the opposition in exile strategy. I expect they are likely to discover that whatever Indyref 2 red lines they have set out have been triggered somewhere fairly close to the point they gain full tax powers.0 -
Why is that unkind? It's a very good point.CarlottaVance said:
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.DavidL said:Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
Settled for a generation should mean that. Otherwise business (and potential HRTs) are put off.
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Interesting, I'm with Socratesrcs1000 said:
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.isam said:Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.0 -
On-topic, thanks @AlastairMeeks for a very informative piece. I've followed your tip with a small bet on NOM. I don't expect to win but 7/1 is just tempting enough.0
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Seemed to me that UKIP wanted Greece to leave?blackburn63 said:
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.isam said:
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.0 -
That is very good. Thanks to FPTP two big political parties in the UK are coalitions. But they can only be such if all sides within them see at least some common cause. Increasingly, though, that is not the case with Labour. Many of its erstwhile supporters - and I imagine a number of its current elected representatives at national and local level - think that a Corbyn-led government would be far more destructive to the interests of the UK and its citizens than a Cameron-led one. We are not going to vote Tory as a result, but we are certainly not going to vote labour either. The major issue Tory critics of IDS had was that he was crap. The major issue that Labour critics of Corbyn have is that he is dangerously wrong at an ideological level. That he is crap as well is by the by.Wanderer said:Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/
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That article has meant GCHQ is now broken*. You're putting British lives at risk by linking to it, Plato!Plato_Says said:Our many big brains here may enjoy this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12041894/GCHQ-Christmas-card-question-Do-you-know-the-puzzle-answer.html
* Well, their website.0 -
Apart from 10 years being an entirely arbitrary figure based on our psychological leaning towards the decimal, who do you think are the requisite up & comers that need to be present in strength & depth for SLab, SCons & SLDs to offer an attractive alternative government (it would have to be some combination of those parties since there's not a scooby of any of them gaining a majority)?TCPoliticalBetting said:I agree with Alastair about 2017 being the start of the SNP's decline, for another reason. 10 years after GE 1979 was the time moves really took off to end Thatcher's reign. 10 years in 2007 brought the end of Blair's Premiership and the end of the labour Govt. 2017 will be the 10th year of the SNP government. 2018 etc will therefore be downhill for them, although it may take 2 elections to end the SNP Govt depending upon how massive a majority they build up in 2016.
Of course there may be another referendum before your required 2 elections come into play. If support for independence has at the very least not receded in the face of the oil & financial sector recessions/shrinkages and international uncertainty, an indy campaign will be starting from a 'too close for comfort' position, not ending at it.0 -
As others have said, a very good piece by antifrank. The question of who comes second at Holyrood takes on even greater significance; there really could be a sort of butterfly effect whereby a handful of votes on the list in one region changes the direction of Scottish politics years into the future.0
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It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
Who is funding the Adebolajo action by the way. Any lawyer taking it on should be on a pro bono basis.0
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I'm not a fan of UKIP but I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent for them to oppose Scottish independence. They might argue that the EU doesn't have a single "demos" (and therefore cannot become a democratic entity) whereas the UK does.blackburn63 said:
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.isam said:
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.0 -
But couldn't an independent Scotland elect a government that offered a referendum?Luckyguy1983 said:
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
I would be ok with a post Brexit govt being elected on a manifesto that allowed free movement of people from the EU, I just want to be able to hold them to account rather than hear "Our hands are tied"0 -
That's Dan Hannan's argument: http://www.capx.co/chris-deerin-is-wrong-scotland-should-vote-to-leave-the-eu/Wanderer said:
I'm not a fan of UKIP but I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent for them to oppose Scottish independence. They might argue that the EU doesn't have a single "demos" (and therefore cannot become a democratic entity) whereas the UK does.blackburn63 said:
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.isam said:
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.0 -
IDS also appealed to the idealogical anti-Europe tories, mainly because he wasn't Ken Clarke.SouthamObserver said:
That is very good. Thanks to FPTP two big political parties in the UK are coalitions. But they can only be such if all sides within them see at least some common cause. Increasingly, though, that is not the case with Labour. Many of its erstwhile supporters - and I imagine a number of its current elected representatives at national and local level - think that a Corbyn-led government would be far more destructive to the interests of the UK and its citizens than a Cameron-led one. We are not going to vote Tory as a result, but we are certainly not going to vote labour either. The major issue Tory critics of IDS had was that he was crap. The major issue that Labour critics of Corbyn have is that he is dangerously wrong at an ideological level. That he is crap as well is by the by.Wanderer said:Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/
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The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?0 -
Excellent article. Once again Alastair is looking at what lies behind the surface of politics, something which the mainstream media, and most political columnists, fail to do. Instead they respond to (often synthetic) 'events'.0
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Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
One of the comments under there struck home with just how hard the splits will be to heal:Wanderer said:Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/
Sorry but revolutionaries don’t look for common ground with the old order. They look for enemies of the revolution. There’s no room for comprise.0 -
I am not a great defender of UKIP, as you probably know - and, again, I could be very wrong - but isn't a principle UKIP argument against the EU that it means the UK is worse off than it would otherwise be? If so, wouldn't being opposed to Scottish independence on the basis that it would make Scotland worse off a reasonable argument to make? In other words, if UKIP opposition to the EU is practical, being opposed to Scottish independence is not hypocritical. But if it is ideological, being opposed to Scottish independence is hypocritical.Richard_Tyndall said:
The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
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As am I. I very much miss his contribution to these debates.blackburn63 said:
Interesting, I'm with Socratesrcs1000 said:
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.isam said:Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.0 -
You forgot the third school of thought, let's call it the Sir Humphrey school:rcs1000 said:
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.isam said:Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore the UK should remain a member of the EU and seek to bugger it up for everyone else0 -
I agree. Our politicians desperately need to stop seeing every issue and decision through the prism of whether this is good or bad for independence in some hypothetical referendum and start looking through the prism of whether this is good or bad for Scottish employment and business.CarlottaVance said:
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.DavidL said:Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
But they won't.0 -
@AlanRoden: Forth Road bridge crisis: How the Scottish Govt's story fell apart over 5 extraordinary days. https://t.co/en7KOq1n9H0
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In this respect this by John Harris is also interesting:Anorak said:
One of the comments under there struck home with just how hard the splits will be to heal:Wanderer said:Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/
Sorry but revolutionaries don’t look for common ground with the old order. They look for enemies of the revolution. There’s no room for comprise.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/08/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-labour-momentum-militant
He notes the two types of new labour joiner/supporter. The old (55+) lefties who have rejoined after decades sulking in the pub and are now intent on causing maximum trouble by using procedures and deselections and conference motions and all the rest. And then there's the 20-somethings, young and heady with idealist ideas, many of whom have probably switched across from the Greens. The problem I can see, which Harris doesn't mention, is that the young are more likely to drift off after a few months or years, bored with the whole endless meeting thing and intimidated by the old crusty militant types.0 -
That's a great observation.rottenborough said:
In this respect this by John Harris is also interesting:Anorak said:
One of the comments under there struck home with just how hard the splits will be to heal:Wanderer said:Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this piece on Corbyn quite interesting. For me it gets at something significant which is that he is not just "Labour's IDS". He has an evangelical following (which IDS didn't) and the reasons for rejecting him are also profound (whereas IDS was just plain old crap).http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/12/09/moral-conflict-and-the-splitting-of-labour-or-what-we-love-will-tear-us-apart/
Sorry but revolutionaries don’t look for common ground with the old order. They look for enemies of the revolution. There’s no room for comprise.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/08/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-labour-momentum-militant
He notes the two types of new labour joiner/supporter. The old (55+) lefties who have rejoined after decades sulking in the pub and are now intent on causing maximum trouble by using procedures and deselections and conference motions and all the rest. And then there's the 20-somethings, young and heady with idealist ideas, many of whom have probably switched across from the Greens. The problem I can see, which Harris doesn't mention, is that the young are more likely to drift off after a few months or years, bored with the whole endless meeting thing and intimidated by the old crusty militant types.0 -
At one time, actually not too long ago, the square mile of Edinburgh was "richer" than the square mile of London. Most of the major UK Insurance Companies were headquartered on George Street. Sunlife comes to mind immediately. Nearly all of (a lot of) Scotlands Banks had their HO's there. Off all the major companies, I think only Standard Life Investments is left. SL HO itself is in Lothian Road. A walk along George Street will take you past the Dome which if you enter now, will give some indication of the one upmanship that was normal in those days, plus you can get a decent pint of beer (if you can get an overdraft;^)DavidL said:The Scottish economy is facing a triple whammy at the present time.
Firstly, the on going shrinkage of the Financial Service sector and the RBS in particular has lost Scotland a significant percentage of its private sector higher rate tax payers.
Secondly, the collapse in north sea oil prices has drained money out of the whole Scottish economy, once again seriously affecting the tax base. The collapse in PRT is a UK problem but the collapse in spending power in Scotland affects housing, retail, restaurants and car sales. It hurts us all.
Thirdly, we now have massive disruption arising from the failure of one of our key infrastructure portals.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault but a grown up Scottish government has to deal with the consequences. Where are the next generation of HRT payers in the private sector to come from? That is what the next election should be about. How can we improve our infrastructure to attract business, reduce taxation on business to attract investment, improve our education so our children can be employable, ideally in Scotland?
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
Who remembers any of them these days after all the consilodations with the ultimate take overs by originally Edinburgh then London based companies. Nope, I am not complaining or moaning. Glasgow, Newcastle, Liverpool and many more UK cities went through the same experience.
The real problem is that not a lot came in to replace the lost leaving too many empty offices and unemployed staff. Sure, we now have "Retail Experiences" and call centres in place, but a lot of the profit disappears out to countries with low/no taxation, and no incentive to manufacture here. Service Industry is just another name to shuffle the same money round all the same companies, not produce anything.
It is not just the Scotttish Government that has to change things, Westminster must also.
0 -
To respond more directly, you ignore the particulars. The arguments that UKIP and the Scottish independence movement share are generic arguments that could be used by any smaller body wishing to exit a larger one. It doesn't follow that this is the best course of action in every case, or the world would split into atoms. It is entirely logical to argue that the UK is a valid, successful, and democratically legitimate entity, and that the EU is not.Richard_Tyndall said:
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.0 -
I think it would be hypocritical for UKIP to argue that Scots should be compelled to remain in the United Kingdom *against their will*. But that's not the party's position.Richard_Tyndall said:
The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
There's nothing inconsistent about being opposed to EU membership, while arguing for the maintenance of the United Kingdom on a voluntary basis. It's been one of the world's most successful States for hundreds of years and Britishness is a common identity that matters to a great many of its inhabitants.0 -
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.Luckyguy1983 said:
To respond more directly, you ignore the particulars. The arguments that UKIP and the Scottish independence movement share are generic arguments that could be used by any smaller body wishing to exit a larger one. It doesn't follow that this is the best course of action in every case, or the world would split into atoms. It is entirely logical to argue that the UK is a valid, successful, and democratically legitimate entity, and that the EU is not.Richard_Tyndall said:
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU0 -
My inner Kipper is pretty laissez-faire. There's some sense to a true federal union (I could see Benelux and Germany working well) for those electorates that want it. The Eurozone will have to form some kind of federation in order for the currency to work in the long term.isam said:
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EUblackburn63 said:
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.SouthamObserver said:
The clue is in the name, isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
I just see the EU as harking back to the post-war Cold war settlement - while the trading rules and standardisation have value, the political trappings don't make sense for the UK, particularly so as the bloc enlarges even further. Decision making is too slow and sclerotic - we have enough issues in that regard, the EU makes things worse.
We talked about inconsistency the other day; I don't even pretend to be consistent, but being a BOOer and anti-Scottish independence is too much, even for flawed, imperfect me. Scotland will be independent in my lifetime, and will do well. Whether that's in the EU or out - it's a Scottish decision.0 -
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.Richard_Tyndall said:
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.Luckyguy1983 said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.blackburn63 said:
Govern themselves?AlastairMeeks said:
Free to do what?blackburn63 said:
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.AlastairMeeks said:Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
0 -
But Robert was referring to UKIP schools of thought and your - quite valid - 3rd alternative is certainly not one I think anyone in UKIP are likely to hold.Charles said:
You forgot the third school of thought, let's call it the Sir Humphrey school:
the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore the UK should remain a member of the EU and seek to bugger it up for everyone else0 -
From the Harris piece http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/08/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-labour-momentum-militant
What this ruling leaves untouched is an associated element within Momentum that is causing no end of trouble, made up of people who have come back to Labour after a long time in self-imposed exile. One party insider characterises them as being “white, male and over 55”. A lot of them, he says, seem to have left Labour in the early 1990s, furious at even Neil Kinnock’s supposed betrayals. They tend to have a deep attachment to the writings of dead Russians, and remain well versed in the kind of bureaucratic manoeuvring that certain left activists tend to mistake for changing the world (“resolutionary socialism”, as one of my Labour friends puts it).
0 -
Huzzah. I shall try and be at the count.
The result of the referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union will be announced in Manchester, the Electoral Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-350600630 -
On topic another excellent piece from Mr Meeks.0
-
DavidL
"That is probably right, it is hard to see Malcolm Chisholm hanging on"
He said he was not standing a few months back-probably because it is obvious he does not rate his own party. Among other issues he is a long time opponent of Trident renewal but is not in favour of independence.
I think he held on last time (only SLAB to do so in Edinburgh) partly because many thought he might favour a Yes vote.0 -
Well that makes the loss of the seat even more inevitable. Where, if anywhere, are Labour likely to hold a constituency seat?JPJ2 said:DavidL
"That is probably right, it is hard to see Malcolm Chisholm hanging on"
He said he was not standing a few months back-probably because it is obvious he does not rate his own party. Among other issues he is a long time opponent of Trident renewal but is not in favour of independence.
I think he held on last time (only SLAB to do so in Edinburgh) partly because many thought he might favour a Yes vote.0 -
SLAB shortlisted candidates going forward to the membership ballot for regional lists ranking last weekend. Annoyingly they didn't post a full report on their website and I've to rely from people announcing on twitter ("Oh, I am so proooooud") , local papers, etc...anyway in 2 regions I've the full shortlists...
Glasgow
Johann Lamont MSP
Patricia Ferguson MSP
Anne MacTaggart MSP
Pauline McNeill (former MSP)
Cllr Sorrida Siddique
Cllr Marie Garrity
Samantha Ritchie (Chair of STUC youth committee)
Paul Martin MSP
James Kelly MSP
Hanzala Malik MSP
Bill Butler (former MSP)
Anas Sarwar (former MP)
Cllr James Adams
Simon McFarlane (Unison official)
North East
Jenny Marra MSP
Lesley Brennan (Dundee Cllr)
Sarah Duncan (Ann Begg's former agent)
Alison Evison (Aberdeenshire Cllr)
Joanne McFadden (from Angus)
Lewis MacDonald MSP
Willie Young (Aberdeen Cllr)
Nathan Morrison (Aberdeen Cllr)
Frank Gilfeather (Evening Express journalist)
Richard McCready (Dundee Cllr)
0 -
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.JPJ2 said:"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
0 -
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.0 -
The arguments don't have to be purely economic to be based on particulars.Richard_Tyndall said:
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.
-The EU is progressively centralising - The UK has been (rightly or wrongly) the opposite
-The structures of the EU (council of ministers & commission particularly) are fundamentally undemocratic - the same cannot be said of the UK (though the system is in need of reform)
-We do not share a language, a currency, state institutions, armed forces, 300 years of statehood, culture & pop culture etc. with the EU - we do with the UK
etc.
0 -
Perhaps it would be less contentious to say the SNP has preferred to preserve the status quo rather than echoing England's tertiary education and health reforms.Pulpstar said:
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.JPJ2 said:"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.0 -
Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
0 -
Evening Standard
Fifth of Labour Party donors 'have quit' since Jeremy Corbyn became leader https://t.co/qyOnXXRdST https://t.co/R1IQRlwIdt0 -
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our headsSean_F said:Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.. 0 -
The final sentence of the paragraph provides the context needed to make sense of it as I did.John_M said:
Perhaps it would be less contentious to say the SNP has preferred to preserve the status quo rather than echoing England's tertiary education and health reforms.Pulpstar said:
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.JPJ2 said:"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
fwiw I'd have left these items alone as the SNP did.0 -
I'm British abroad and English at home.John_M said:
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our headsSean_F said:Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity..0 -
The Thousand Club was founded two decades ago by well-heeled backers, with a mission to raise £1 million a year from professionals like bankers, lawyers and investors
Who on earth "invests" in the Labour party, particularly when it isn't in Government.0 -
I'm so English, I'm practically a descendant of St GeorgeJohn_M said:
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our headsSean_F said:Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.Sean_F said:
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity..
0 -
*up and coming*AndreaParma_82 said:SLAB shortlisted candidates going forward to the membership ballot for regional lists ranking last weekend. Annoyingly they didn't post a full report on their website and I've to rely from people announcing on twitter ("Oh, I am so proooooud") , local papers, etc...anyway in 2 regions I've the full shortlists...
Glasgow
Johann Lamont MSP
Patricia Ferguson MSP
Anne MacTaggart MSP
Pauline McNeill (former MSP)
Cllr Sorrida Siddique
Cllr Marie Garrity
Samantha Ritchie (Chair of STUC youth committee)
Paul Martin MSP
James Kelly MSP
Hanzala Malik MSP
Bill Butler (former MSP)
Anas Sarwar (former MP)
Cllr James Adams
Simon McFarlane (Unison official)
North East
Jenny Marra MSP
Lesley Brennan (Dundee Cllr)
Sarah Duncan (Ann Begg's former agent)
Alison Evison (Aberdeenshire Cllr)
Joanne McFadden (from Angus)
Lewis MacDonald MSP
Willie Young (Aberdeen Cllr)
Nathan Morrison (Aberdeen Cllr)
Frank Gilfeather (Evening Express journalist)
Richard McCready (Dundee Cllr)
Much as I'd welcome a wider platform for Willie Young's particular brand of idiocy, I doubt he'll going forward. Mind you, it is SLab..0 -
There are surely plenty of people on here who will enjoy this - it does exactly what it says on the URL: http://guessthecorrelation.com/
I have a high score of 38 so far.0 -
I wonder why they chose Manchester? Of all the places in the UK what made Manchester the best place to collate the figures? Birmingham, Leeds, even Sheffield, I should have thought would have done just as well if they wanted a big city outside London.TheScreamingEagles said:Huzzah. I shall try and be at the count.
The result of the referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union will be announced in Manchester, the Electoral Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35060063
Mind, if the result is going to be "out" then the best place to announce it would be Winchester, England's historical capital.0 -
George loves Manchester, even if they don't love himHurstLlama said:
I wonder why they chose Manchester? Of all the places in the UK what made Manchester the best place to collate the figures? Birmingham, Leeds, even Sheffield, I should have thought would have done just as well if they wanted a big city outside London.TheScreamingEagles said:Huzzah. I shall try and be at the count.
The result of the referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union will be announced in Manchester, the Electoral Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35060063
Mind, if the result is going to be "out" then the best place to announce it would be Winchester, England's historical capital.
0 -
Good morning, everyone.
More monitor woe [obviously it self-righted again]. Ordering a new one, but if I disappear for a few days, that'll be why.0
