politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Do 1 in 5 British Muslims really ‘sympathise with Jihadis’?
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Do 1 in 5 British Muslims really ‘sympathise with Jihadis’?
As someone that has spent most of his professional life reading opinion polls I have always enjoyed this scene from Yes Minister where Sir Humphrey explains to Bernard how to rig an opinion poll.
Comments
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Good piece Keiran, it's a shame that newspapers like the Sun play such games. I would, however, be genuinely interested to know what people actually think about this stuff. Perhaps some of the more responsible papers could get together to commission such a poll.
Oh, and first!0 -
This thread and the last thread need to be read side by side. Apparently similar questions can produce very different results.
I don't know how I would have answered the original poll. A lot would have depended on which side of bed I'd got out of that morning, I suspect.0 -
Excellent piece Keiran.0
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Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw0
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One thing I would say, I doubt too many would have thought of those fighting against ISIS when answering the question. I pay attention to the news and are aware of such people, but I still interpreted it as "going to fight with ISIS", even though the question didn't explicitly say them.0
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I don't think you'd qualify to partake in the Survation Muslim poll, unless you've converted?AlastairMeeks said:This thread and the last thread need to be read side by side. Apparently similar questions can produce very different results.
I don't know how I would have answered the original poll. A lot would have depended on which side of bed I'd got out of that morning, I suspect.
If you have converted, all I can say is Mazel Tov.0 -
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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I posted this on the previous thread. More appropriate here.
How useful are such polls without clear questions?
There are 4 possible groups:
1. Those who approve wholeheartedly of IS, its aims & means. They are willing/likely to join them.
2. Those who would not join themselves but understand IS's attraction (the "pull" factor) and/or have some sympathy for why others join (the "push" factor). They may be willing to assist/turn a blind eye to others' actions.
3. Those who abhor the violence used by IS but think in general terms that it would be better, cet.par., for Muslims to live in an Islamic caliphate subject to sharia law. Some of this group may also think that Muslims in a non-Islamic country should be subject to sharia law rather than the secular law of the country concerned.
4. Those who abhor both the violence used by IS & its aims i.e. they see themselves as both citizens of the countries they live in and Muslim and no contradiction between the two. Within this group there are those who feel that they should not be held responsible and criticised for the actions of those falling within 1 & possibly also 2) and those who, while agreeing with this, feel that in order to reduce the numbers falling within the first two groups they need to take more active steps to stop this happening. These latter two may also be the source of intelligence against those in 1 & 2.
Ideally, we'd like to have everyone fall into 4 and none in 1. That is not the case. Those in 2 are also a problem because they provide implicit support for those in 1 - the sea, as it were, in which the terrorist fish can swim.
No. 3 is a bit more ambivalent. Having a vague ideal which you do nothing to bring about and/or which you recognise has next to no chance of coming about is fine - though it may be perceived as less fine at a time of increasing terror risk & jangled nerves. It's when this morphs into providing a religious/ideological/intellectual/cultural [take your pick] justification for the actions of those in the previous two groups that it can become a problem. Separately, the idea that certain groups should be subject to separate laws based on their religion can be a real problem because it implies that not everyone is subject to the same laws/equal under them. This is heightened when one legal system is completely at odds with the main one in the country.
What is undeniable is that even if the numbers in 1/2 are relatively small even a small number can create chaos. After all, the actions of 8-9 people have led to a major European country into a national state of emergency. The consequent search for one man has shut down the capital city of another country for 3 days.
If the numbers are larger - and who would bet against that after recent events - that is going to have severe implications for the structure of & resources devoted to policing & intelligence work across Europe, which the political class have not even begun to digest.
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Good piece, BTW.
A poor poll and poor journalism on the back of it.
Didn't PEW or a similar organisation commission a more thorough poll on this topic a while back?0 -
Surely whichever way you look at it the figures are of concern.0
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Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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Yes - I think anyone taking an alternative view would be guilty of trying too hard. As Keiran says, the real issue is the word "sympathy". I certainly sympathise with some of the youngest recruits.tlg86 said:One thing I would say, I doubt too many would have thought of those fighting against ISIS when answering the question. I pay attention to the news and are aware of such people, but I still interpreted it as "going to fight with ISIS", even though the question didn't explicitly say them.
In terms of genuine approval, you would hope and expect that an opinion poll wouldn't be able to pick up a statistically significant number of people (Muslim or otherwise) who think British Muslims going off to fight for ISIS is a good idea. Which is presumably why that question wasn't commissioned. Shame on The Sun for this one.0 -
i was once threatened with such a charge for tearing down conservative election banners. probably drunk and disorderly might have been more appropriate. or they could have doubled up. luckily said policeman didn't fancy the paperwork and let us off..TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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(i was very young, and certainly don't condone such actions, btw)dugarbandier said:
i was once threatened with such a charge for tearing down conservative election banners. probably drunk and disorderly might have been more appropriate. or they could have doubled up. luckily said policeman didn't fancy the paperwork and let us off..TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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Oops:
A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34857404
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do you feel pressurized by lampposts?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.
And then you've got to add in the Jezzarite sympathisers.0 -
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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It is, not my area of expertise but I did read a while back the bar to bring a charge is quite high, you'd have to show specific person(s) who were intimidated/unable into not voting because of this.RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
I suspect the CPS have gone for the charge that has the best charge of a jury returning a guilty verdict.0 -
Well quite, it's certainly not 4 9s as claimed by Kieran on a previous thread.CD13 said:
It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.
And then you've got to add in the Jezzarite sympathisers.0 -
Grant Schapps?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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''Surely whichever way you look at it the figures are of concern.''
If the figures are 1 in 10, rather than one in 5 as the Sun claims, that is a quarter of a million adults.
Still poor form from the Sun tho'0 -
No. Do you feel comfortable that some people are trying to stop others voting in elections?dugarbandier said:
do you feel pressurized by lampposts?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.CD13 said:It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.
And then you've got to add in the Jezzarite sympathisers.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support.
You could have sympathy for a fifteen year old brainwashed into joining ISIS
Edit: Also see the tweet below that I posted from Mike about how non Muslims polled in March felt about ISIS, comparable to Muslims0 -
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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It may be poorly presented as a headline, but its a lot of people who frankly I'd rather didn't think that way.taffys said:
''Surely whichever way you look at it the figures are of concern.''
If the figures are 1 in 10, rather than one in 5 as the Sun claims, that is a quarter of a million adults.
Still poor form from the Sun tho'0 -
@TheMichaelMoran: Splendid work, Mystery Underground Prankster.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUfvY9yWoAAkvC3.png0 -
Did your poster imply you'd be committing a sin by voting?AlastairMeeks said:
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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No. Do you feel comfortable that some people are trying to stop others voting in elections?RobD said:
do you feel pressurized by lampposts?
not especially, but also not comfortable with dumping our western liberal values such as freedom of expression without due consideration0 -
Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet.
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I didn't realise freedom of expression meant you could threaten people to do stuff? While abstentionism is okay, I don't think it is okay to suggest voting is a sin, or that you will be punished for voting.dugarbandier said:
not especially, but also not comfortable with dumping our western liberal values such as freedom of expression without due considerationRobD said:
No. Do you feel comfortable that some people are trying to stop others voting in elections?dugarbandier said:
do you feel pressurized by lampposts?0 -
Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll.CD13 said:Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet.0 -
It is important though to try and get the facts straight, as far as possible. If you ask rubbish questions you risk getting rubbish answers.Plato_Says said:It may be poorly presented as a headline, but its a lot of people who frankly I'd rather didn't think that way.
taffys said:''Surely whichever way you look at it the figures are of concern.''
If the figures are 1 in 10, rather than one in 5 as the Sun claims, that is a quarter of a million adults.
Still poor form from the Sun tho'0 -
I prefer this one plastered all over the Tube by what seems to be the Corbynite UndergroundTheScreamingEagles said:@TheMichaelMoran: Splendid work, Mystery Underground Prankster.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUfvY9yWoAAkvC3.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMivPBlWcAAFpcq.jpg:large0 -
Jehovah's Witnesses and various other minority Christian groupings regard voting as sinful. Are you in favour of prosecuting members of those churches?RobD said:
Did your poster imply you'd be committing a sin by voting?AlastairMeeks said:
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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Loving the PB Lefties like TSE rubbishing the Currant Bun
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UKIP now 3/1 for Oldham with Betfair Exchange
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.1214397880 -
Thanks but I would rather not listen to your Turkish, neo Ottoman/Islamist spin on events in Syria. Turkey is not our friend.JosiasJessop said:
You have yet to learn that there is a difference between proposed actions and enacted actions.LondonBob said:
No it is a daft position. The Syrian Civil War has been a conflict completely contrived by outside powers. As the wikileaks document from the US Ambassador in 2006 confirms.JackW said:I think the criticism of the Prince of Wales is somewhat misplaced and his position more nuanced.
Prince Charles stated that the six year drought in Syria forced people off the land and into cities that accentuated the difficulties already present. A breeding ground for discontent was substantially heightened that helped to ferment the rebellion against Assad and the rise of ISIS.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html
http://ericmargolis.com/2015/07/destroying-syria-to-make-it-safe-for-american-values/
An estimated 250,000 have died in the Syrian Civil War, 40,000 of those have been foreign Salafists fighting for the rebels. I wish the Syrian people good luck in expelling these foreign invaders who have devastated their country. 100,000 Syrians have died fighting for their country, hopefully now that the SAA and allied government militias are making real progress the slaughter will stop. Their needs to a reckoning for the KSA, Turkey, Qatar, Israel as well as reform of 'our' own government, it is a wicked and terrible thing we have done.
The Syrian civil war came about because of protests, which can be seen as part of the Arab Spring, for more democracy and the release of political prisoners (*). In an unsurprising move Assad's forces opened fire on protesters.
As the regime's line hardened, so did the protesters, who expanded their aims to the overthrow of Assad.
You might want to take your tinfoil hat off and actually look at what went on instead of blindly supporting mass-murderer, chemical-weapons using, war criminal Assad.
(*) Who are very poorly treated by the regime:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/images-syrian-torture-shock-new-yorkers-united-nations
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/09/recipe-for-disaster-how-supporting-syrian-rebel-groups-has-turned-into-a-us-foreign-policy-disaster-.html
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/09/recipe-for-disaster-how-supporting-syrian-rebels-put-us-foreign-policy-into-disarray.html0 -
Mr Eagles,
"Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll."
They are the Guardian-reading Jezzarites!
But they are all mouth and trousers (I'm sticking to the original phrase).0 -
Yes, I don't think it is correct to teach that voting is wrong.AlastairMeeks said:
Jehovah's Witnesses and various other minority Christian groupings regard voting as sinful. Are you in favour of prosecuting members of those churches?RobD said:
Did your poster imply you'd be committing a sin by voting?AlastairMeeks said:
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
Edit - yes, if they are pressurising others not to vote.0 -
They sport hipster, rather than crazy beards.CD13 said:
Mr Eagles,
"Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll."
They are the Guardian-reading Jezzarites!
But they are all mouth and trousers (I'm sticking to the original phrase).0 -
When was the last time a JW opened fire in a rock concert?AlastairMeeks said:
Jehovah's Witnesses and various other minority Christian groupings regard voting as sinful. Are you in favour of prosecuting members of those churches?RobD said:
Did your poster imply you'd be committing a sin by voting?AlastairMeeks said:
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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As a Liverpool fan I've been rubbishing The Sun for years.Sunil_Prasannan said:Loving the PB Lefties like TSE rubbishing the Currant Bun
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A bit desperate this thread header I think. the '99.9%' line just isn't going to hold I'm afraid, no matter how much liberal left-wingers want it to.0
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I wonder how many read the Guardian.TheScreamingEagles said:
Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll.CD13 said:Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet.0 -
Would love it if you ripped up a copy in public at the next PB meetTheScreamingEagles said:
As a Liverpool fan I've been rubbishing The Sun for years.Sunil_Prasannan said:Loving the PB Lefties like TSE rubbishing the Currant Bun
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There's a not insignificant minority on the Left who feel the British state is illegitimate and its values unworthy of respect.rcs1000 said:
What's really scary is that there are 3m non Muslims who feell the same wayCD13 said:It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.
And then you've got to add in the Jezzarite sympathisers.
Therefore they may well have some sympathy with those they perceive have been its victims who wish to fight against it.0 -
Yes, shutting down their social media accounts will solve everything.....AndyJS said:Petition against UK action in Syria:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064
and really... "but murdering people will just make things worse."?-1 -
Isn't a bigger issue is that the opposition to fighting in Syria is very very muted ?
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It wasn't so long ago that a significant chunk of Tories would be happy with a military coup to topple PM Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
I wonder how many read the Guardian.TheScreamingEagles said:
Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll.CD13 said:Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet.0 -
here's line 4 of my first pretty random googleTheScreamingEagles said:
Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll.CD13 said:Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet.
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2783455/American-fighter-joins-Kurds-battle-against-Islamic-State.html
Let's do a straw poll right here on PB. How many:
a) sympathise
b).....0 -
I believe the Nats are opposed unless we get another UN resolution.TGOHF said:Isn't a bigger issue is that the opposition to fighting in Syria is very very muted ?
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Naught but PB Lefty Propaganda from TSETheScreamingEagles said:
It wasn't so long ago that a significant chunk of Tories would be happy with a military coup to topple PM Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
I wonder how many read the Guardian.TheScreamingEagles said:
Not straw clutching, a similar poll of non Muslims earlier in the year found similar findings to this poll.CD13 said:Mr Eagles,
"But it isn't sympathy for ISIS.
Just fighters in Syria, which includes people fighting ISIS. as Mr Price points out below, sympathy does not equal support."
Straw-clutching methinks.
How many people really thought they were talking about Kurdish volunteers? Newspaper reports tend to be shite anyway - and I've never been a fan of any sociological poll. It is to science what I am to underwater ballet. 0 -
LDs 'Winning here'?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Back in the 1970s somebody stood as an Anti-Election candidate and drove around with a loudspeaker shouting 'Don't vote for me or anybody else'!0
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putting stickers on lamposts is a bit different from threatening.RobD said:
I didn't realise freedom of expression meant you could threaten people to do stuff? While abstentionism is okay, I don't think it is okay to suggest voting is a sin, or that you will be punished for voting.dugarbandier said:
not especially, but also not comfortable with dumping our western liberal values such as freedom of expression without due considerationRobD said:
No. Do you feel comfortable that some people are trying to stop others voting in elections?dugarbandier said:
do you feel pressurized by lampposts?
also plenty of preachers advise hell will result from different types of behaviours. are they not to be allowed to say so?0 -
linkrider said:
LDs 'Winning here'?TheScreamingEagles said:ttps://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/668757503698669568
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maybe Prince will do itSunil_Prasannan said:
When was the last time a JW opened fire in a rock concert?AlastairMeeks said:
Jehovah's Witnesses and various other minority Christian groupings regard voting as sinful. Are you in favour of prosecuting members of those churches?RobD said:
Did your poster imply you'd be committing a sin by voting?AlastairMeeks said:
I hope not. I've put a poster saying "DON'T VOTE" in my window in a previous election.RobD said:
An advert telling people not to vote is surely enough?Cyclefree said:
I believe it is but it would, presumably, be hard to prove that putting stickers on lampposts amounts to pressuring individuals not to vote. How often do people read what is stuck on a lamppost, unless it's a picture of a cat or an announcement of parking restrictions?RobD said:
Shouldn't pressurising someone not to vote be a criminal offence?TheScreamingEagles said:
Criminal damagedugarbandier said:
as from t'previous, what's the charge? criminal damage or somesuch?Plato_Says said:Four to stand trial accused of plastering 500 lampposts with stickers urging Muslims not to vote in the May election https://t.co/4GZepGC2mw
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If he had omitted the word "Anybody", would have been a very sinister campaign!justin124 said:Back in the 1970s somebody stood as an Anti-Election candidate and drove around with a loudspeaker shouting 'Don't vote for me or anybody else'!
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OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.0
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I don't know. It's all part of a package with the intent to stop people voting.dugarbandier said:
putting stickers on lamposts is a bit different from threatening.RobD said:
I didn't realise freedom of expression meant you could threaten people to do stuff? While abstentionism is okay, I don't think it is okay to suggest voting is a sin, or that you will be punished for voting.dugarbandier said:
not especially, but also not comfortable with dumping our western liberal values such as freedom of expression without due considerationRobD said:
No. Do you feel comfortable that some people are trying to stop others voting in elections?dugarbandier said:
do you feel pressurized by lampposts?
also plenty of preachers advise hell will result from different types of behaviours. are they not to be allowed to say so?
Saying that coveting your neighbour's wife is a sin is one thing, saying that taking part in a democratic election is a sin is another.0 -
"Only the LD "Sympathisers" can beat Labour here!"linkrider said:
LDs 'Winning here'?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Not to worry PB Tories 4 Corbyn..
http://www.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T0 -
You probably already know, but #Brusselslockdown has some great cat picsPlato_Says said:OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.
https://twitter.com/search?q=#BrusselsLockdown&src=tyah0 -
Topping,
I have no sympathy whatsoever and neither has my wife.
Of course, there are sympathisers in the Muslim community. This is a problem and the scale is all we are arguing about. The non-Muslim sympathisers are the bed-wetters who see a different world to everyone else. They are no problem anyway as their idea of action is writing a severe reprimand.
It's the famous phrase in Trainspotting about Begbe .. along the lines of "he's a psycho but he is a mate."
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#Don'tUnseatJeremyCorbynAssociationRobD said:Not to worry PB Tories 4 Corbyn..
http://www.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T0 -
Han Solo in "The Empire Strikes Back" talking about Lando:CD13 said:Topping,
I have no sympathy whatsoever and neither has my wife.
Of course, there are sympathisers in the Muslim community. This is a problem and the scale is all we are arguing about. The non-Muslim sympathisers are the bed-wetters who see a different world to everyone else. They are no problem anyway as their idea of action is writing a severe reprimand.
It's the famous phrase in Trainspotting about Begbe .. along the lines of "he's a psycho but he is a mate."
"Well, I don't trust him either, but he is my friend!"0 -
@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
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They're the sort of people who would have supported the Soviet Union in previous decades. For them, my enemy's enemy is always my friend.Casino_Royale said:
There's a not insignificant minority on the Left who feel the British state is illegitimate and its values unworthy of respect.rcs1000 said:
What's really scary is that there are 3m non Muslims who feell the same wayCD13 said:It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.
And then you've got to add in the Jezzarite sympathisers.
Therefore they may well have some sympathy with those they perceive have been its victims who wish to fight against it.0 -
we are not arguing about the scale (of sympathy in the Muslim community).CD13 said:Topping,
I have no sympathy whatsoever and neither has my wife.
Of course, there are sympathisers in the Muslim community. This is a problem and the scale is all we are arguing about. The non-Muslim sympathisers are the bed-wetters who see a different world to everyone else. They are no problem anyway as their idea of action is writing a severe reprimand.
It's the famous phrase in Trainspotting about Begbe .. along the lines of "he's a psycho but he is a mate."
We are discussing what people are being apparently shown to have sympathy for. For those going off to fight against IS or those going off to fight for IS. The question doesn't make clear and it is possible to have sympathy for the person featured in the article I linked and that sympathy would have counted towards the "sympthetic towards jihadi" headline.
You may (and your wife) may have no sympathy for either position but that is a long way from what The Sun is trying to suggest by its headline.0 -
Mr Topping (assuming it is Mr),
Do you think that anyone asked that question immediately thinks of someone fighting against ISIS?
We'll have to agree to differ there.
But I do agree that most polls/surveys run my newspapers aren't worth the paper they use up.
Edit: "and my wife" is a Monty Python quote from "Life of Brian". Do you think we'll ever make the equivalent featuring a Mohammed character?0 -
"Cinema ban for Lord's Prayer is 'ridiculous', says Cameron"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/23/cinema-ban-for-lords-prayer-ad-is-ridiculous-says-cameron0 -
sorry not to get the reference (I also missed out on the Stones).CD13 said:Mr Topping (assuming it is Mr),
Do you think that anyone asked that question immediately thinks of someone fighting against ISIS?
We'll have to agree to differ there.
But I do agree that most polls/surveys run my newspapers aren't worth the paper they use up.
Edit: "and my wife" is a Monty Python quote from "Life of Brian". Do you think we'll ever make the equivalent featuring a Mohammed character?
My other point was that just about the first story (from the DM!) was of a fighter going to fight against IS.
Without doing the point to death it is quite likely that a non-trivial proportion of those asked that question had any one of several recent media stories such as that in their minds.
Anyway, we agree that voodoo polls are voodoo polls....0 -
Reporting as misleading as the Sun above.Richard_Nabavi said:Oops:
A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34857404
The existence of a capability does not suggest that it was used.
A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.
The company told the BBC it believes this is the first time the cheating software has been filmed in action.
VW has admitted it used the device to rig tighter pollution tests in America.
But it's been more ambiguous about whether it used the same tactics to actively cheat official European tests.
Panorama's results suggest that it did.
My 84 year old neighbour carries around a walking stick capable of assaulting a policeman. That does not suggest that she has done it.
It requires extra evidence such as her stating that that was her intention, and perhaps the existence of a damaged policeman in her vicinity.
A misleading statement from the Beeboids unless they have some proof that it was used. They don't.
Regrettably common at the Beeb these days.0 -
Link to the poll that showsthat 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?0 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?0 -
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The existence of a capability does not suggest that it was used.MattW said:
Reporting as misleading as the Sun above.Richard_Nabavi said:Oops:
A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34857404
A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.
The company told the BBC it believes this is the first time the cheating software has been filmed in action.
VW has admitted it used the device to rig tighter pollution tests in America.
But it's been more ambiguous about whether it used the same tactics to actively cheat official European tests.
Panorama's results suggest that it did.
My 84 year old neighbour carries around a walking stick capable of assaulting a policeman. That does not suggest that she has done it.
It requires extra evidence such as her stating that that was her intention, and perhaps the existence of a damaged policeman in her vicinity.
A misleading statement from the Beeboids unless they have some proof that it was used. They don't.
Regrettably common at the Beeb these days.
Well, if it is programmed to start 'cheat mode' as soon as the computer recognises the sequence of inputs that are used for a test, then it is VW in the slammer.0 -
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
PM: We will invest more than £178 billion in buying and maintaining equipment over the next decade #SDSR20150
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I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with ISIS!TheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
Oooh, defensiveTheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS. 0 -
Don't agree with the premise of the thread at all I'm afraid. Time and again it has been shown a significant minority of young British Muslims hold extreme views. And those are just the ones prepared to admit it in surveys.0
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Corbyn speaking in the Commons...0
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Is sympathising with the Charlie Hebdo attackers any better than sympathising with ISIS?TheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
Shy Jihadists?CopperSulphate said:Don't agree with the premise of the thread at all I'm afraid. Time and again it has been shown a significant minority of young British Muslims hold extreme views. And those are just the ones prepared to admit it in surveys.
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Good afternoon, everyone.
I agree with this piece. On the other hand, when questionable methodology was used in a question which delivered a very low level of support for the tax credit cuts, the piece on that was simply reporting the low figure, not the questionable method.
Mr. Eagles, it's true Mr. Zims' was not accurate in that claim, but 27% having sympathy for the motives of mass murderers is still not great.0 -
To be honest, I think the recent speech of Sadiq Khan is more helpful than voodoo polls. The fact that someone like him is prepared to say what he said - which echoes what Cameron said in his big speech a while back on the same topic - is more useful.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Easy to attack polls. Less easy when it someone who knows what he is talking about saying that there is a problem and it needs to be addressed rather than denied.
I'm not a fan of Khan generally but he should be given credit for that speech.0 -
Excluding Trident?Plato_Says said:PM: We will invest more than £178 billion in buying and maintaining equipment over the next decade #SDSR2015
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Given that an Al-Qaeda franchise claimed responsibility by what logic do you link them to ISIS?RobD said:
I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with ISIS!TheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
By what logic do I link Al-Qaeda to ISIS? Oh, let me think.......Alistair said:
Given that an Al-Qaeda franchise claimed responsibility by what logic do you link them to ISIS?RobD said:
I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with ISIS!TheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
Exactly. Let's all pretend to get outraged at the wording of how Western muslims condone terrorist attacks rather than the fact that they are condoning it at all.RobD said:
I wouldn't say they have nothing to do with ISIS!TheScreamingEagles said:
So John Zims was talking shite when he said 27% of British Muslims sympathised with ISIS terrorists.Sunil_Prasannan said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlTheScreamingEagles said:
Link to the poll please?john_zims said:@CD13
'It's not much comfort that even 5% of British Muslims have sympathy for ISIS joiners That's around a quarter of a million in the UK.'
So the February poll for the Telegraph after the Charlie Hebdo murders which showed that 27% of British Muslims sympathized with ISIS terrorists is also wrong ?
Thought as much
One in four (27%) British Muslims say they have some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris.
As ISIS wasn't mentioned in the question, and the question asked about some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers, who were nothing to do with ISIS.0 -
Sympathy doesn't equal support.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
I agree with this piece. On the other hand, when questionable methodology was used in a question which delivered a very low level of support for the tax credit cuts, the piece on that was simply reporting the low figure, not the questionable method.
Mr. Eagles, it's true Mr. Zims' was not accurate in that claim, but 27% having sympathy for the motives of mass murderers is still not great.
Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%), Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.0 -
And the other 7%?TheScreamingEagles said:
Sympathy doesn't equal support.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
I agree with this piece. On the other hand, when questionable methodology was used in a question which delivered a very low level of support for the tax credit cuts, the piece on that was simply reporting the low figure, not the questionable method.
Mr. Eagles, it's true Mr. Zims' was not accurate in that claim, but 27% having sympathy for the motives of mass murderers is still not great.
Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%), Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.0 -
Would be interesting to see the second statistic for Jews (who have their own law too, I believe) and other religious groups.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sympathy doesn't equal support.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
I agree with this piece. On the other hand, when questionable methodology was used in a question which delivered a very low level of support for the tax credit cuts, the piece on that was simply reporting the low figure, not the questionable method.
Mr. Eagles, it's true Mr. Zims' was not accurate in that claim, but 27% having sympathy for the motives of mass murderers is still not great.
Almost all Muslims living in Britain feel a loyalty to the country (95%), Nine in ten (93%) British Muslims believe that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws.0
