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edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another day in the great referendum battle – date to be announced

The Leave Campaign are losing the arguments + threatening to get ‘nasty’. Let's stop them: https://t.co/WqKtBp2hdt pic.twitter.com/zvPJpbXEcW

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  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,714
    Can we have weekly EU referendum, with us moving in or out according to the whims of voters please.
  • Danny565
    Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)
  • Scrapheap_as_was
    Scrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Oh for an AV thread
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,684
    The Remain position is now pretty clear - except we don't know what the outcome of the renegotiation will be, and we might not really know even by the time of the vote.

    It's a clear target for Leave to attack. Remain will want to do the same to the Leave position, but I think Leave will deliberately keep it broad brush to avoid offering targets.
  • EPG
    EPG Posts: 6,739
    It's fear of change versus petty resentment and fear will win.
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....
  • PClipp
    PClipp Posts: 2,138
    EPG said:

    It's fear of change versus petty resentment and fear will win.

    Doesn't fear operate on both sides?
  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    For those interested, my latest paper has just come out in Nature:

    http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    The Leave campaign need to make their case, seriously and with genuine well thought out arguments not enter a campaign of anger towards remain. My instinct is to remain but I could be persuaded against if leave would stop using slogans and start making their case backed up with independent evidence.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    Shorely a rerun.
  • Dair
    Dair Posts: 6,108
    EPG said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Corbyn can't sing, can't bow etc.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/664525035168792576?lang=en

    I am no fan of Corbyn, but this is just getting ridiculous. Criticize the man for bonkers policies, there is plenty to go at, e.g his sexist train carriage idea.
    He dissents from the British state religion and as a religious dissenter is getting stick accordingly. Tim Farron if he were in Corbyn's place would get it too (as a man who has an actual religion).
    Britain does not have a state religion.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Politics just keeps getting worse.
  • Dair
    Dair Posts: 6,108
    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The only loss of respect is for those who genuflect for the horrific, undemocratic, entrenched entitlement represented by the monarchy. Anyone who kow tows to Lizzie Windsow lacks backbone, intellect and self-respect.
  • Pong
    Pong Posts: 4,693
    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
  • Pong
    Pong Posts: 4,693
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    Shorely a rerun.
    Not before the lawyers get rich.
  • rpjs
    rpjs Posts: 3,787
    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    Shorely a rerun.
    Not before the lawyers get rich.
    Wouldn't the precedent be from Parliament where in the event of a tie the Speaker casts his deciding vote in whichever way preserves the status quo?
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
  • Cyclefree
    Cyclefree Posts: 25,709
    MTimT said:

    For those interested, my latest paper has just come out in Nature:

    http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747

    Thank you. I will read it later.
  • Cyclefree
    Cyclefree Posts: 25,709
    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    There is quite enough repellent material in what Corbyn has said and done over the years without worrying about whether he knelt before HMQ or not.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    What would Harry Hill do?
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
    Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...

    Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
  • AnneJGP
    AnneJGP Posts: 3,743
    MTimT said:

    For those interested, my latest paper has just come out in Nature:

    http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747

    After a very rapid skim - very interesting indeed. I especially like that it is comprehensible!

    I hope it meets with a favourable & positive response.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    SquareRoot said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
    Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...

    Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
    I am aware of that but William and Kate would no doubt be the popular choice. Your second comment re Corbyn hits the nail on the head
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    We stay In I presume as the public previously backed EEC membership in 1975
  • MarkHopkins
    MarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)


    As opposed to an inexact tie?

  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    edited November 2015
    This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.

    @GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.

    Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
    A new poll in Australia has 51% wanting a Republic when Charles becomes King. However a poll last year had only 39% wanting a Republic when Wills and Kate visited, suggesting your comment sounds sensible
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/king-charles-majority-of-australians-support-a-republic-instead-of-queen-elizabeths-successor-20151110-gkvwqy.html
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/republican-cause-takes-heavy-knock-in-poll-20140201-31u1a.html
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    It does look like EU ref could get quite aggressive, especially if Cummings is co-ordinating the Leave campaign. Kippers may take a leaf out of the cybernats book
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    Maybe longer, I've written a piece for Sunday on why Dave shouldn't hold the referendum next June.
  • HurstLlama
    HurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.

    @GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.

    Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis

    By 2017 Eurosceptic Marine Le Pen could well have topped the first round of the French presidential election, perhaps even before EU ref
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.

    Best only follow funny cat pictures.
  • notme
    notme Posts: 3,293
    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    Which is why Twitter is such a deceptive, dangerous and devastatingly self reinforcing echo chamber.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    foxinsoxuk said:

    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.

    Best only follow funny cat pictures.
    Follow Larry the Cat, the Downing Street, a parody account, is great. Cat pictures and politics

    https://twitter.com/Number10cat/with_replies.

    This is my favourite tweet, on the evening that Cameron pig story broke

    @Number10cat: Never been so grateful to be a cat...
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    MTimT said:

    For those interested, my latest paper has just come out in Nature:

    http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747

    Thanks for that. I've skimmed it and it's very interesting.

    Are there regular meetings of experts, not to discuss the latest bio technology and uses, but to discuss best practice for safety in the industry - as there are in computer security? Where experts can get together formally in conference and informally in the bars afterwards and say things like: "You may want to look at the way you filter air: we narrowly avoided a problem because the UV lights lost efficiency before their lifespan" (invented and ridiculous example).

    Or does military and industrial secrecy in the industry, along with embarrassment at disclosing issues, preclude them?

    IMO any good organisation can learn a great deal from near misses that are carefully analysed and acted upon, at less cost than a real incident. Even better if you can learn from other peoples' near misses.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    Maybe longer, I've written a piece for Sunday on why Dave shouldn't hold the referendum next June.
    Maybe longer and definitely more garbage!
  • MikeSmithson
    MikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    Maybe longer, I've written a piece for Sunday on why Dave shouldn't hold the referendum next June.
    ...and as we know TSE Dave reads every word on PB and will, undoubtedly, follow your advice

  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.

    @GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.

    Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis

    It's not even the British. Mainly the Tories.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Former Senate Majority Leader and 1996 GOP nominee Bob Dole has endorsed Jeb Bush
    https://jeb2016.com/bob-dole-endorses-jeb/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=bobdole_twitter_social_20151111_e_v1
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    MikeSmithson said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    Maybe longer, I've written a piece for Sunday on why Dave shouldn't hold the referendum next June.
    ...and as we know TSE Dave reads every word on PB and will, undoubtedly, follow your advice

    He hasn't followed my advice about ennobling JohnO and myself.
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.

    This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.

    This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.

    It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent).
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746
  • Baskerville
    Baskerville Posts: 391
    MTimT said:

    For those interested, my latest paper has just come out in Nature:

    http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747

    Very impressive and well argued. Let's hope your peers are open enough to accept lessons from outside their own 'industry'.
  • No_Offence_Alan
    No_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,118
    Mortimer said:

    Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....

    They will probably spend the alleged savings from leaving the EU ten times over, like Labour did with the Mansion tax.
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    No_Offence_Alan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....

    They will probably spend the alleged savings from leaving the EU ten times over, like Labour did with the Mansion tax.
    Wasn't that the extra tax on bankers or was it both? its seems forever since EICWNBPM
  • notme
    notme Posts: 3,293
    HYUFD said:

    A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.

    This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.

    This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.

    It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent).
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746

    'Northern Irish citizens'? Shouldnt that be United Kingdom citizens?
  • notme
    notme Posts: 3,293
    SquareRoot said:

    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
    That's Tim, is it not?
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    notme said:

    HYUFD said:

    A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.

    This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.

    This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.

    It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent).
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746

    'Northern Irish citizens'? Shouldnt that be United Kingdom citizens?
    Northern Irish people might have been better, same as Scottish, English or Welsh people, UK citizens
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    notme said:

    SquareRoot said:

    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
    That's Tim, is it not?
    so it is assumed...
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    edited November 2015
    It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.

    On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
  • volcanopete
    volcanopete Posts: 2,078
    We've got months if not years of this banging on about Europe,the effect of which is far more sedative than inspiring.One big yawn.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    'Though it was far from clear what relationship Britain could keep with the EU were it to leave, an overwhelming majority of academics who contacted the Guardian feared the worst'

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/664565063773061120
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.

    On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?

    It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    volcanopete said:

    We've got months if not years of this banging on about Europe,the effect of which is far more sedative than inspiring.One big yawn.

    Agreed - most people will get on with their lives and only waken up to the referendum when David Cameron announces that he has completed negotiations and the date will be confirmed. It is to be hoped by that time that both sides have sorted out their arguments
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.

    On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?

    It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
    Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    volcanopete said:

    We've got months if not years of this banging on about Europe,the effect of which is far more sedative than inspiring.One big yawn.

    On those grounds alone a 2016 vote is probably for the best.
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    isam said:

    'Though it was far from clear what relationship Britain could keep with the EU were it to leave, an overwhelming majority of academics who contacted the Guardian feared the worst'

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/664565063773061120

    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.

    On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?

    It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
    Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
    Well I'm hopeful. Someone who I know is a Cameron critic and committed leaver said something nice about Cameron earlier on this week which surprised me

    (Was about Dave saying there'll be only one referendum if we vote to leave, there won't be a rerun)
  • HurstLlama
    HurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HurstLlama said:

    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
    Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
  • runnymede
    runnymede Posts: 2,536
    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    edited November 2015
    antifrank said:

    HurstLlama said:

    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
    Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
    If it's EU money then that means that ultimately it has come from the British taxpayer (given that we are a large net contributor). So once again it us a question of who decides how best taxpayers money is spent.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited November 2015
    X
    antifrank said:

    HurstLlama said:

    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
    Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
    I just liked the vagueness of the quote... Four opportunities to land a decisive punch and all passively aggressively, kind of, sort of avoided
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    edited November 2015
    antifrank said:

    HurstLlama said:

    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
    Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
    Academic funding, worker's rights, farm subsidies, poorer region cash could all be hypothecated to the current EU (funding) recipients/beneficiaries if we wished to do so being "out".

    I really don't see this as a strong argument for "Remain", unless you're a preisoner who depserately wants to vote :D
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    England are prepared to go global and pay whatever it takes to land the right man to be the new head coach of the national team after the reign of Stuart Lancaster was officially brought to an end yesterday.

    Nearly four years after appointing Lancaster, a man with no experience at the top level, Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the RFU, said that international experience was the absolute priority.

    Eddie Jones, the former Australia and Japan head coach who is in charge of the Stormers, and Jake White, who led South Africa to the World Cup in 2007, have emerged as the favourites to be offered the job.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4611745.ece
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    edited November 2015
    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
    £1 billion a year of UK taxpayers money given back to the universities by the EU out of a total university income of around £22 billion a year. Given that in all likelihood all that would change us that the monies would stop being siphoned through Brussels it us hardly a great scare story.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    X

    antifrank said:

    HurstLlama said:

    SquareRoot said:



    does the Grauniad get any money from the EU?

    I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
    Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
    I just liked the vagueness of the quote... Four opportunities to land a decisive punch and all passively aggressively, kind of, sort of avoided
    The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    There will be plenty more.

    The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    RobD said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
    £1 billion a year of UK taxpayers money given back to the universities by the EU out of a total university income of around £22 billion a year. Given that in all likelyhood all that would change us that the monies would stop being siphoned through Brussels it us hardly a great scare story.
    I agree it isn't a great scare story, but there is no guarantee that funding would continue. Although you could say that there is no guarantee the EU will continue to fund it either!
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    There will be plenty more.

    The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
    Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    antifrank said:

    The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".

    ... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    edited November 2015
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    antifrank said:

    The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".

    ... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
    The job of Leave is to make clear the status quo is not on offer.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.

    You are extremely wrong about that.

    When there are two competing groups throwing bogus statistics around, people won't believe either.

    But they will stick with nurse for fear of something worse.

    This is such an obvious point that I'm just amazed that the Leave side don't seem to get it.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    The Guardian EU uni scare story is laughable. On a related note, the UK loses a sizable amount of money from EU students who have to have the same access to student loans and then they don't repay. Plus of course there would be the ability for uni to charge what they liked to EU students, not just non-EU.

    The above is worth a huge sum of money and something that the government nor unis have the ability to do anything about at the moment.
  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    There will be plenty more.

    The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
    Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
    The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.

    Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
  • flightpath01
    flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.

    On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?

    It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
    Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
    Well I'm hopeful. Someone who I know is a Cameron critic and committed leaver said something nice about Cameron earlier on this week which surprised me

    (Was about Dave saying there'll be only one referendum if we vote to leave, there won't be a rerun)
    If all of this is an example, even before we have anything to discuss then both the pro and anti protagonists are just going to expose themselves as clowns.

  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    antifrank said:

    The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".

    ... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
    The job of Leave is to make clear the status quo is not on offer.
    Remain are campaigning to offer Status Quo+ ... the Status Quo with the added bonus of whatever is renegotiated. Leave can try and pretend that the status quo is not on offer but unless the renegotiation makes things worse its not going to be an argument that sticks with the average voter.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    edited November 2015
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    There will be plenty more.

    The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
    Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
    The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.

    Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
    Nope. Part of Leave's mission has to be to make it clear to the public that the EU as it is - as bad as that already is - is not on offer and things can and will get much worse if we vote to stay in.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited November 2015
    Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.
  • runnymede
    runnymede Posts: 2,536
    Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.
  • flightpath01
    flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    HurstLlama said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    It'll be like Florida 2000.

    With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.

    Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
    Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.

    Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
    I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
    The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.

    Best only follow funny cat pictures.
    Follow Larry the Cat, the Downing Street, a parody account, is great. Cat pictures and politics

    https://twitter.com/Number10cat/with_replies.

    This is my favourite tweet, on the evening that Cameron pig story broke

    @Number10cat: Never been so grateful to be a cat...
    Given the number of dead cats getting thrown on the table I would have thought Larry must be getting a bit fed up.and/or worried.
    I'm certainly getting a bit fed up of all the dead cats being thrown around on PB.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    antifrank said:

    The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".

    ... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
    The job of Leave is to make clear the status quo is not on offer.
    Remain are campaigning to offer Status Quo+ ... the Status Quo with the added bonus of whatever is renegotiated. Leave can try and pretend that the status quo is not on offer but unless the renegotiation makes things worse its not going to be an argument that sticks with the average voter.
    Given that the public already overwhelmingly mistrusts the EU it will not be too difficult to make it clear that they will find ways to circumvent anything Cameron might claim to have achieved. And they already have examples such as Major's anger at the ECJ to show how little the EU cares for promises - even those apparently enshrined in treaties.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    It looks like after today's ECJ judgement Mr Dyson will have a few more nasty words to say about the EU as well.
  • Tim_B
    Tim_B Posts: 7,669
    14 million people watched the GOP debate on Fox Business last night, their biggest rating ever.

    It's an astounding number as FBN is not yet universally available.
  • flightpath01
    flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited November 2015
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Pong said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

    The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
    I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
    Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...

    Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
    I am aware of that but William and Kate would no doubt be the popular choice. Your second comment re Corbyn hits the nail on the head
    Why should William and Kate as well as George and Charlotte not have a bit of a life whilst charles rules?
    I doubt the queen cares tuppence about any genuflecting or not by Corbyn, or that some Labour source sees it important enough to leak it.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited November 2015
    runnymede said:

    Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.

    Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.

    The Leave side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.

    Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.

    The Remain side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
    Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!
  • No_Offence_Alan
    No_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,118
    isam said:

    Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.

    The EU has improved vastly since 1975. There is now a single market; the wine lakes and butter mountains have gone; there was no rebate then; Britain is a middling net contributor to the budget now.

  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited November 2015
    isam said:

    Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!

    I'm not on the fence, my position is quite clear, or at least as clear as it can be given the available info:

    1) I'm quite certain I don't want to leave if the alternative is an EEA-style deal, which is unambiguously the worst of all worlds.

    2) If we're going to Remain, I want as much reform of the EU as possible, along the lines Cameron has proposed. More would be nice, but may not be attainable.

    3) I'm still waiting to hear what the third option - Leave but not EEA - is supposed to be. Once I've heard, I'll consider first whether it is plausible, and secondly what the risk/reward balance looks like.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    isam said:

    Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!

    I'm not on the fence, my position is quite clear, or at least as clear as it can be given the available info:

    1) I'm quite certain I don't want to leave if the alternative is an EEA-style deal, which is unambiguously the worst of all worlds.

    2) If we're going to Remain, I want as much reform of the EU as possible, along the lines Cameron has proposed. More would be nice, but may not be attainable.

    3) I'm still waiting to hear what the third option - Leave but not EEA - is supposed to be. Once I've heard, I'll consider first whether it is plausible, and secondly what the risk/reward balance looks like.
    Wish I could find the link, that reminds me so much of the Dennis Pennis interview w Sylvester Stallone
  • flightpath01
    flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.

    Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.

    The Leave side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
    The main drivers of Leave are a bunch of nasty white supremacists. They have regressed to the lowest common denominator of politics. The original motive has long gone.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Danny565 said:

    What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?

    (Semi-serious question.)

    We'd stick to the status quo, so Remain would win.
  • flightpath01
    flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Tim_B said:

    14 million people watched the GOP debate on Fox Business last night, their biggest rating ever.

    It's an astounding number as FBN is not yet universally available.

    A lot of people watch Strictly Come Dancing,yet they know the participants are useless dancers. This sort of competition hardly seems a clever way to elect a President. Rational politics does not need TV networks peddling incompetents making fools of themselves for the ratings.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    flightpath01 said:


    The main drivers of Leave are a bunch of nasty white supremacists.

    Come on @flightpath01, don't be so coy, tell us what you really think.
  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    isam said:

    Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.

    Totally bogus argument. The British Parliament passed how many Treaty reforms between 1975 and today? We elected via our Parliament to change what existed in 75 repeatedly so of course it's not on offer now.

    The status quo is on offer for remain though as much as others want to pretend it isn't.
  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    runnymede said:

    Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one

    There will be plenty more.

    The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
    Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
    The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.

    Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
    Nope. Part of Leave's mission has to be to make it clear to the public that the EU as it is - as bad as that already is - is not on offer and things can and will get much worse if we vote to stay in.
    But since the status quo exists it is on offer so you're left peddling fear of a potential future change which is pretty weak. Surely the job of Leave is to demonstrate that leaving is better than the status quo. If it can do that it can win, if it can't then Leave don't deserve to win.
  • MikeL
    MikeL Posts: 7,809
    Wisdom Index:

    "Regardless of which outcome you support, which outcome do you expect in the EU referendum?"

    UK will remain - 77%
    UK will leave - 23%

    Totally overwhelming. Deep down, everyone knows the UK won't actually leave.

    Carbon copy of the Scottish referendum and the GE - in the sense that people who may want to vote one way (and indeed who will walk to the polling station planning to vote that way) will then bottle it at the last minute.

    And everyone knows it - as illustrated by that landslide Wisdom Index result.

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