The Remain position is now pretty clear - except we don't know what the outcome of the renegotiation will be, and we might not really know even by the time of the vote.
It's a clear target for Leave to attack. Remain will want to do the same to the Leave position, but I think Leave will deliberately keep it broad brush to avoid offering targets.
Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....
The Leave campaign need to make their case, seriously and with genuine well thought out arguments not enter a campaign of anger towards remain. My instinct is to remain but I could be persuaded against if leave would stop using slogans and start making their case backed up with independent evidence.
I am no fan of Corbyn, but this is just getting ridiculous. Criticize the man for bonkers policies, there is plenty to go at, e.g his sexist train carriage idea.
He dissents from the British state religion and as a religious dissenter is getting stick accordingly. Tim Farron if he were in Corbyn's place would get it too (as a man who has an actual religion).
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The only loss of respect is for those who genuflect for the horrific, undemocratic, entrenched entitlement represented by the monarchy. Anyone who kow tows to Lizzie Windsow lacks backbone, intellect and self-respect.
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
There is quite enough repellent material in what Corbyn has said and done over the years without worrying about whether he knelt before HMQ or not.
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...
Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
I am aware of that but William and Kate would no doubt be the popular choice. Your second comment re Corbyn hits the nail on the head
This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.
@GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.
Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
It does look like EU ref could get quite aggressive, especially if Cummings is co-ordinating the Leave campaign. Kippers may take a leaf out of the cybernats book
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.
@GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.
Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
By 2017 Eurosceptic Marine Le Pen could well have topped the first round of the French presidential election, perhaps even before EU ref
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
Which is why Twitter is such a deceptive, dangerous and devastatingly self reinforcing echo chamber.
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.
Best only follow funny cat pictures.
Follow Larry the Cat, the Downing Street, a parody account, is great. Cat pictures and politics
Thanks for that. I've skimmed it and it's very interesting.
Are there regular meetings of experts, not to discuss the latest bio technology and uses, but to discuss best practice for safety in the industry - as there are in computer security? Where experts can get together formally in conference and informally in the bars afterwards and say things like: "You may want to look at the way you filter air: we narrowly avoided a problem because the UV lights lost efficiency before their lifespan" (invented and ridiculous example).
Or does military and industrial secrecy in the industry, along with embarrassment at disclosing issues, preclude them?
IMO any good organisation can learn a great deal from near misses that are carefully analysed and acted upon, at less cost than a real incident. Even better if you can learn from other peoples' near misses.
This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.
@GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.
Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.
This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.
This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.
It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746
Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....
They will probably spend the alleged savings from leaving the EU ten times over, like Labour did with the Mansion tax.
Actually, if Leave are serious about leaving (I'm not always so sure, esp. given how many gaffes Farage and his team manage), LEAVE the EU to SAVE the NHS message could just work....
They will probably spend the alleged savings from leaving the EU ten times over, like Labour did with the Mansion tax.
Wasn't that the extra tax on bankers or was it both? its seems forever since EICWNBPM
A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.
This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.
This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.
It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746
'Northern Irish citizens'? Shouldnt that be United Kingdom citizens?
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
A joint poll conducted by BBC and RTE, the Irish state broadcaster, has found that only thirteen per cent of Northern Irish citizens support unification with the Republic in the short to medium term.
This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.
This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.
It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746
'Northern Irish citizens'? Shouldnt that be United Kingdom citizens?
Northern Irish people might have been better, same as Scottish, English or Welsh people, UK citizens
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
You are obviously not linked into George Osborne genius twitter account, there is much warped and twisted politics as you might wish to avoid.
It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
'Though it was far from clear what relationship Britain could keep with the EU were it to leave, an overwhelming majority of academics who contacted the Guardian feared the worst'
It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
We've got months if not years of this banging on about Europe,the effect of which is far more sedative than inspiring.One big yawn.
Agreed - most people will get on with their lives and only waken up to the referendum when David Cameron announces that he has completed negotiations and the date will be confirmed. It is to be hoped by that time that both sides have sorted out their arguments
It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
'Though it was far from clear what relationship Britain could keep with the EU were it to leave, an overwhelming majority of academics who contacted the Guardian feared the worst'
It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
Well I'm hopeful. Someone who I know is a Cameron critic and committed leaver said something nice about Cameron earlier on this week which surprised me
(Was about Dave saying there'll be only one referendum if we vote to leave, there won't be a rerun)
I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
If it's EU money then that means that ultimately it has come from the British taxpayer (given that we are a large net contributor). So once again it us a question of who decides how best taxpayers money is spent.
I doubt it but I would put money that the academics, or at least their institutions, who provide the source of the story do
Since it's the risk to that EU funding that supposedly worries them, that doesn't seem like the wildest prediction.
Academic funding, worker's rights, farm subsidies, poorer region cash could all be hypothecated to the current EU (funding) recipients/beneficiaries if we wished to do so being "out".
I really don't see this as a strong argument for "Remain", unless you're a preisoner who depserately wants to vote
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
England are prepared to go global and pay whatever it takes to land the right man to be the new head coach of the national team after the reign of Stuart Lancaster was officially brought to an end yesterday.
Nearly four years after appointing Lancaster, a man with no experience at the top level, Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the RFU, said that international experience was the absolute priority.
Eddie Jones, the former Australia and Japan head coach who is in charge of the Stormers, and Jake White, who led South Africa to the World Cup in 2007, have emerged as the favourites to be offered the job.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
£1 billion a year of UK taxpayers money given back to the universities by the EU out of a total university income of around £22 billion a year. Given that in all likelihood all that would change us that the monies would stop being siphoned through Brussels it us hardly a great scare story.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
There will be plenty more.
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
The funding story? To be fair, a fair chunk of money does come from the EU. While you could argue that the funding will simply be paid for by the UK government, there is no guarantee at will happen.
£1 billion a year of UK taxpayers money given back to the universities by the EU out of a total university income of around £22 billion a year. Given that in all likelyhood all that would change us that the monies would stop being siphoned through Brussels it us hardly a great scare story.
I agree it isn't a great scare story, but there is no guarantee that funding would continue. Although you could say that there is no guarantee the EU will continue to fund it either!
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
There will be plenty more.
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
The Guardian EU uni scare story is laughable. On a related note, the UK loses a sizable amount of money from EU students who have to have the same access to student loans and then they don't repay. Plus of course there would be the ability for uni to charge what they liked to EU students, not just non-EU.
The above is worth a huge sum of money and something that the government nor unis have the ability to do anything about at the moment.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
There will be plenty more.
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.
Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
It strikes me we are going to be poorly served by both official campaigns in this debate.
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
It's going to be 3 million jobs vs 3 million immigrants isn't it?
Yep. Shame because there is a real debate to be had but I doubt it will be heard over the scare mongering
Well I'm hopeful. Someone who I know is a Cameron critic and committed leaver said something nice about Cameron earlier on this week which surprised me
(Was about Dave saying there'll be only one referendum if we vote to leave, there won't be a rerun)
If all of this is an example, even before we have anything to discuss then both the pro and anti protagonists are just going to expose themselves as clowns.
The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".
... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
The job of Leave is to make clear the status quo is not on offer.
Remain are campaigning to offer Status Quo+ ... the Status Quo with the added bonus of whatever is renegotiated. Leave can try and pretend that the status quo is not on offer but unless the renegotiation makes things worse its not going to be an argument that sticks with the average voter.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
There will be plenty more.
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.
Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
Nope. Part of Leave's mission has to be to make it clear to the public that the EU as it is - as bad as that already is - is not on offer and things can and will get much worse if we vote to stay in.
Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.
Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.
What happens if the result of the referendum is an exact tie?
(Semi-serious question.)
It'll be like Florida 2000.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
Judging by the above tweets the ballot spoilers will be raising the intellectual quality of the debate.
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
I don't know about Facebook as I have never used it, but what you see on Twitter is surely a result of the choices you have made. I see very little politics on my Twitter feed and certainly none of the rubbish such as evidenced here.
The campaigns pay a lot for ads. All you need is any expressed interest in politics to get them.
Best only follow funny cat pictures.
Follow Larry the Cat, the Downing Street, a parody account, is great. Cat pictures and politics
This is my favourite tweet, on the evening that Cameron pig story broke
@Number10cat: Never been so grateful to be a cat...
Given the number of dead cats getting thrown on the table I would have thought Larry must be getting a bit fed up.and/or worried. I'm certainly getting a bit fed up of all the dead cats being thrown around on PB.
The story is rubbish. It can be summed up as "we don't like the sound of this".
... which is a winning argument for the status quo.
The job of Leave is to make clear the status quo is not on offer.
Remain are campaigning to offer Status Quo+ ... the Status Quo with the added bonus of whatever is renegotiated. Leave can try and pretend that the status quo is not on offer but unless the renegotiation makes things worse its not going to be an argument that sticks with the average voter.
Given that the public already overwhelmingly mistrusts the EU it will not be too difficult to make it clear that they will find ways to circumvent anything Cameron might claim to have achieved. And they already have examples such as Major's anger at the ECJ to show how little the EU cares for promises - even those apparently enshrined in treaties.
So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.
The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
I don't believe anyone should have to bow to anyone else. I was a Republican for many years but age seems to have mellowed me and I think the Queen has been a wonderful servant to the Country and will be greatly missed on her death. But as for Charles I say skip him and go to William and Kate with a toned down modern monarchy
Unsurprising that you do not understand that you cannot just skip a generation. Charles would have to abdicate and he certainly will not, not after waiting 65 yrs...
Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
I am aware of that but William and Kate would no doubt be the popular choice. Your second comment re Corbyn hits the nail on the head
Why should William and Kate as well as George and Charlotte not have a bit of a life whilst charles rules? I doubt the queen cares tuppence about any genuflecting or not by Corbyn, or that some Labour source sees it important enough to leak it.
Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.
Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.
The Leave side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.
Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.
The Remain side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!
Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.
The EU has improved vastly since 1975. There is now a single market; the wine lakes and butter mountains have gone; there was no rebate then; Britain is a middling net contributor to the budget now.
Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!
I'm not on the fence, my position is quite clear, or at least as clear as it can be given the available info:
1) I'm quite certain I don't want to leave if the alternative is an EEA-style deal, which is unambiguously the worst of all worlds.
2) If we're going to Remain, I want as much reform of the EU as possible, along the lines Cameron has proposed. More would be nice, but may not be attainable.
3) I'm still waiting to hear what the third option - Leave but not EEA - is supposed to be. Once I've heard, I'll consider first whether it is plausible, and secondly what the risk/reward balance looks like.
Still on the fence Richard? You really are inscrutable!
I'm not on the fence, my position is quite clear, or at least as clear as it can be given the available info:
1) I'm quite certain I don't want to leave if the alternative is an EEA-style deal, which is unambiguously the worst of all worlds.
2) If we're going to Remain, I want as much reform of the EU as possible, along the lines Cameron has proposed. More would be nice, but may not be attainable.
3) I'm still waiting to hear what the third option - Leave but not EEA - is supposed to be. Once I've heard, I'll consider first whether it is plausible, and secondly what the risk/reward balance looks like.
Wish I could find the link, that reminds me so much of the Dennis Pennis interview w Sylvester Stallone
Exactly - Cameron's 'renegotiation' will do nothing to prevent further losses of sovereignty to the EU, let alone reverse any of those that have already occurred.
Too abstract. Sovereignty as a concept is important to Tory right-wingers of the Jacob Rees-Mogg style, but not to anyone else.
The Leave side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
The main drivers of Leave are a bunch of nasty white supremacists. They have regressed to the lowest common denominator of politics. The original motive has long gone.
14 million people watched the GOP debate on Fox Business last night, their biggest rating ever.
It's an astounding number as FBN is not yet universally available.
A lot of people watch Strictly Come Dancing,yet they know the participants are useless dancers. This sort of competition hardly seems a clever way to elect a President. Rational politics does not need TV networks peddling incompetents making fools of themselves for the ratings.
Surely an easy way of demonstrating that the status quo is not on offer is to compare what we voted for in 1975 with what has transpired since? The argument then from NO was that we would slowly become a province of a European superstate, despite only agreeing to a free trade deal.
Totally bogus argument. The British Parliament passed how many Treaty reforms between 1975 and today? We elected via our Parliament to change what existed in 75 repeatedly so of course it's not on offer now.
The status quo is on offer for remain though as much as others want to pretend it isn't.
Good candidate for this week's laughable pro-EU scare story of the week this one
There will be plenty more.
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Since the Remain side have also failed to present a plausible scenario that us hardly a great problem.
The status quo is always plausible, the roof hasn't caved in and we're not in a disaster so there's no need to present a scenario.
Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
Nope. Part of Leave's mission has to be to make it clear to the public that the EU as it is - as bad as that already is - is not on offer and things can and will get much worse if we vote to stay in.
But since the status quo exists it is on offer so you're left peddling fear of a potential future change which is pretty weak. Surely the job of Leave is to demonstrate that leaving is better than the status quo. If it can do that it can win, if it can't then Leave don't deserve to win.
"Regardless of which outcome you support, which outcome do you expect in the EU referendum?"
UK will remain - 77% UK will leave - 23%
Totally overwhelming. Deep down, everyone knows the UK won't actually leave.
Carbon copy of the Scottish referendum and the GE - in the sense that people who may want to vote one way (and indeed who will walk to the polling station planning to vote that way) will then bottle it at the last minute.
And everyone knows it - as illustrated by that landslide Wisdom Index result.
Comments
(Semi-serious question.)
It's a clear target for Leave to attack. Remain will want to do the same to the Leave position, but I think Leave will deliberately keep it broad brush to avoid offering targets.
http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747
The funniest part is, its the very same media editors going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE, who will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
Corbyn's behaviour will be his own downfall.
I hope it meets with a favourable & positive response.
With Remain arguing every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Farage is a cock" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Remain.
Whilst Leave will argue every spoilt ballot paper with the message "Cameron is a Quisling" written on them is a clear intent by the voter for Leave.
As opposed to an inexact tie?
@GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.
Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/king-charles-majority-of-australians-support-a-republic-instead-of-queen-elizabeths-successor-20151110-gkvwqy.html
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/republican-cause-takes-heavy-knock-in-poll-20140201-31u1a.html
Have we really got to suffer 8 months of this garbage clogging up Twitter and Facebook?
Best only follow funny cat pictures.
https://twitter.com/Number10cat/with_replies.
This is my favourite tweet, on the evening that Cameron pig story broke
@Number10cat: Never been so grateful to be a cat...
Are there regular meetings of experts, not to discuss the latest bio technology and uses, but to discuss best practice for safety in the industry - as there are in computer security? Where experts can get together formally in conference and informally in the bars afterwards and say things like: "You may want to look at the way you filter air: we narrowly avoided a problem because the UV lights lost efficiency before their lifespan" (invented and ridiculous example).
Or does military and industrial secrecy in the industry, along with embarrassment at disclosing issues, preclude them?
IMO any good organisation can learn a great deal from near misses that are carefully analysed and acted upon, at less cost than a real incident. Even better if you can learn from other peoples' near misses.
https://jeb2016.com/bob-dole-endorses-jeb/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=bobdole_twitter_social_20151111_e_v1
This number rises to 30 per cent on the more abstract future, “within their lifetime” – including only 57 per cent of the traditionally nationalist Catholic community.
This number rises to 32 per cent if it meant lower taxes – although only 11 per cent of it involved tax rises.
It also found rising support for direct rule – the end of devolution in the province – amongst the unionist community, although more Catholics supported it (14 per cent) than did Protestants support unification (three per cent).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746
On the question of the date, how seriously does Cameron have to take the Electoral Commissions view that there should be at least 9 months between the passing of the referendum bill and the vote itself?
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/664565063773061120
(Was about Dave saying there'll be only one referendum if we vote to leave, there won't be a rerun)
I really don't see this as a strong argument for "Remain", unless you're a preisoner who depserately wants to vote
The Leave side has unfortunately left it extremely late, probably too late, to establish a plausible alternative scenario. That, therefore, gives the Remain side a free hand to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
When there are two competing groups throwing bogus statistics around, people won't believe either.
But they will stick with nurse for fear of something worse.
This is such an obvious point that I'm just amazed that the Leave side don't seem to get it.
The above is worth a huge sum of money and something that the government nor unis have the ability to do anything about at the moment.
Remain are going for "the status quo but better" while Leave need to prevent a serious alternative.
I'm certainly getting a bit fed up of all the dead cats being thrown around on PB.
It's an astounding number as FBN is not yet universally available.
I doubt the queen cares tuppence about any genuflecting or not by Corbyn, or that some Labour source sees it important enough to leak it.
The Leave side do have one potentially winning (albeit completely bogus) argument, which is of course immigration. If they play that card with sufficient skill and dishonesty, they might pull off a victory. (Of course it would be a bit awkward later).
1) I'm quite certain I don't want to leave if the alternative is an EEA-style deal, which is unambiguously the worst of all worlds.
2) If we're going to Remain, I want as much reform of the EU as possible, along the lines Cameron has proposed. More would be nice, but may not be attainable.
3) I'm still waiting to hear what the third option - Leave but not EEA - is supposed to be. Once I've heard, I'll consider first whether it is plausible, and secondly what the risk/reward balance looks like.
The status quo is on offer for remain though as much as others want to pretend it isn't.
"Regardless of which outcome you support, which outcome do you expect in the EU referendum?"
UK will remain - 77%
UK will leave - 23%
Totally overwhelming. Deep down, everyone knows the UK won't actually leave.
Carbon copy of the Scottish referendum and the GE - in the sense that people who may want to vote one way (and indeed who will walk to the polling station planning to vote that way) will then bottle it at the last minute.
And everyone knows it - as illustrated by that landslide Wisdom Index result.