politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two Lib Dem defences and one SNP one in tonight’s local by-
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two Lib Dem defences and one SNP one in tonight’s local by-elections
Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford on Aberdeenshire (SNP and Lib Dem defence)
Result of council at last election (2012): Scottish National Party 28, Conservatives 14, Liberal Democrats 12, Independents 11, Labour 2, Green Party 1 (No Overall Control, SNP short by 7)
Result of ward at last election (2012) :
Comments
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First!
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Thanks Harry!0
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Breitbart has an exclusive interview with Jeb Bush. Here is his take on Brexit:
Great Britain is a sovereign nation, and they must make this decision about their relationship with Europe on their own. The U.S. should not be putting a thumb on the scale and certainly shouldn’t bully an ally. That said, as President, if Great Britain made that decision of course the U.S. would work with them on a trade agreement.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/11/05/exclusive-jeb-bush-interview-with-breitbart-news-budget-deals-mean-more-spending-usa-needs-a-strong-europe/0 -
Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.0 -
I'm not a very active poster, Harry, but I would like to say how very much I appreciate the huge amount of effort you put into doing these thread headers every week. It's amazing, and thank you.0
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Seconded. Thanks for the thread Harry.AnneJGP said:I'm not a very active poster, Harry, but I would like to say how very much I appreciate the huge amount of effort you put into doing these thread headers every week. It's amazing, and thank you.
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Great aren’t they. – I often google the most intriguing names to discover their origins, be they Roman, Anglo Saxon, Dane etc – Did you know there’s a Shire of Strathbogie in Australia?kle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
[edit] - Many thanks Harry for you weekly sterling efforts.0 -
Again the description of by-elections in STV multi-member wards is utterly broken. Aird and Loch Ness was not an "SNP defeat" it was a redistribution of Independent votes which favoured the Lib Dems.
The SNP will win both these wards, the Liberals will be eliminated.0 -
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.0 -
You do realise how badly your phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.0 -
How else do you expect it to be phrased? It was not an "SNP Defence", that description is not accurate for a by-election under AV from a multi-member STV constituency.Charles said:
You do realise how badly you're phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.
Accuracy and clarity are not traits to be avoided or ones to be ashamed of.0 -
You're doing it again. There are ways of correcting people politely. Accuracy and clarity are important, but so is courtesy.Dair said:
How else do you expect it to be phrased? It was not an "SNP Defence", that description is not accurate for a by-election under AV from a multi-member STV constituency.Charles said:
You do realise how badly you're phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.
Accuracy and clarity are not traits to be avoided or ones to be ashamed of.0 -
If the SNP won the STV seat with AV and then lost the same STV seat with AV to another party it's called a defeat, since it's the reverse of victory.Dair said:
How else do you expect it to be phrased? It was not an "SNP Defence", that description is not accurate for a by-election under AV from a multi-member STV constituency.Charles said:
You do realise how badly you're phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.
Accuracy and clarity are not traits to be avoided or ones to be ashamed of.0 -
They never won Aird and Loch Ness with AV, they won one of four seats in an STV election with 4 members elected.Speedy said:
If the SNP won the STV seat with AV and then lost the same STV seat with AV to another party it's called a defeat, since it's the reverse of victory.Dair said:
How else do you expect it to be phrased? It was not an "SNP Defence", that description is not accurate for a by-election under AV from a multi-member STV constituency.Charles said:
You do realise how badly you're phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.
Accuracy and clarity are not traits to be avoided or ones to be ashamed of.0 -
It has been pointed out time and time again that the way this site (and others and the press) describe AV by-elections from STV constituencies is wrong. It is not discourteous to continually correct this. The article is WRONG. I'm not swearing, I'm not angry, I'm simply correcting a repeated error.Charles said:
You're doing it again. There are ways of correcting people politely. Accuracy and clarity are important, but so is courtesy.Dair said:
How else do you expect it to be phrased? It was not an "SNP Defence", that description is not accurate for a by-election under AV from a multi-member STV constituency.Charles said:
You do realise how badly you're phrasing comes across, don't you? At best it makes you sound like a know-it-allDair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.
Accuracy and clarity are not traits to be avoided or ones to be ashamed of.0 -
I have to say Dair has a point. It's disappointing to see the problems with interpreting by-elections in multimember wards in Scottish local government emerging yet again.
In this case, however, not only was the Conservative the leader the last time (so it 'should' be a C and Unionist win) but we only have one rather than two SNP candidates. How one can compare that with the original multimember election is an interesting question.
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Yay!!!
Only the Lilywhites can win here...0 -
It was just an expression, not a criticism of the SNP for failing to win that contest, no-one can win everything.Dair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottils.
The shock, for me, is that under any system the LDs kept any vote in Scotland to be able to win a seat, even if it was retention, or perfectly viable, as considering how LD prospects in Scotland for the LDs are frequently described, that they had enough supporters to sign the nomination papers for a candidate or fill a list or whatever would be a shock. You seem inordinately angry(and do not deny again that you are angry - people do not react with such persistent, unceasing passion about a goddamn local election if they are not angry) about that particular election, seeing a conspiracy against the mighty SNP and Scotland in how it is reported, and I knew that you, you specifically, would leap upon any errant phrasing, so considered how I should word it and if I should take another pass at it, but in the end I just couldn't summon up the energy to care about such a technical matter of no consequence, and figured your over the top rage on the subject would keep the thread on topic to the locals for a bit, so being more careful in my own phrasing was unnecessary.
I'm going to bed now to avoid an even more pointless argument, but for the love of god, no-one was putting down the SNP or Scotland, which is self evidently your concern because you seem worried that people are saying, gasp, the SNP did not win something, and so are seizing upon an argument that, in this instance, was not even being made. For me, the LDs winning anything in Scotland is a shock, it isn't a put down to the SNP (again, this is clearly your concern because you worry that it is being reported they lost something they perhaps should have won) because I don't care about that, wasn't making that argument, just noting that the LDs did win a seat. Doesn't matter if it was retention, or from anyone, that they won, given their circumstances, is a personal shock to me, not an analytical shock based upon indepth understanding of voting systems, just a semi-serious 'wow, I thought there were no LDs left in Scotland to be elected, let alone people to vote for one'. Not every turn of phrase needs to be analysed and critiqued for ill motivation.
Gods, you must go crazy when people describe slight wins as landslides, or claim this government has a good majority. You should try to get less worked up by inelegant phrasing sometimes.0 -
Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.0 -
Let's wait until the votes are counted.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.0 -
They jolly well should do, going into the election with a 15000 majority, more than half the vote last time, with the Lib Dems nowhere and the Tories in government.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
Has any opposition party *ever* lost a seat where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit - yes. Glasgow Govan, 1988, for one.
Let me rephrase the question: Has any opposition party *ever* lost a by-election in England where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit (2) - yes. Bermondsey, 1983.
OK. I'll give up now.0 -
No need, he's the popular leader of Oldham council.AndyJS said:
Let's wait until the votes are counted.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
The only problem is that he is an enemy of Corbyn and a right winger in a very left wing constituency, so there might be leakage to the Greens.0 -
Seems as predicted masked anti capitalist (i.e. Corbyn supporters) descended to riot and violence in London.
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Are you trying to avoid saying that the SNP lost?Dair said:
It was not a shock. Effectively the SNP went into an AV contest with 28% of the first preference vote. How surprising they didn't winkle4 said:Huntly, Strathbogie and the Howe of Alford? What a great name. Bless you, Harry, and the local elections.
LD wins all round to be the most interesting. Sounds crazy with the Scottish ones, but that previous win was a shock, so who knows.
I actually quite like the idea of former MPs re-treading into local councils.0 -
He's a bit on the young side, and one reason Ed wasn't credible in May was because older voters saw him as an overgrown sixth-former.Speedy said:
No need, he's the popular leader of Oldham council.AndyJS said:
Let's wait until the votes are counted.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
The only problem is that he is an enemy of Corbyn and a right winger in a very left wing constituency, so there might be leakage to the Greens.0 -
So the 9000 pound cap on university fees is to be abolished.FrancisUrquhart said:
P.S. I don't believe the bomb story since there is no evidence from the wreckage itself of an explosion so far and the Russians, which would profit the most from the bomb story, deny it.0 -
True, but people hold prospective prime ministers to different standards than MPs.AndyJS said:
He's a bit on the young side, and one reason Ed wasn't credible in May was because older voters saw him as an overgrown sixth-former.Speedy said:
No need, he's the popular leader of Oldham council.AndyJS said:
Let's wait until the votes are counted.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
The only problem is that he is an enemy of Corbyn and a right winger in a very left wing constituency, so there might be leakage to the Greens.0 -
I have the same opinion of Cameron, but I don't vote Tory for many more reasons that just that.AndyJS said:
He's a bit on the young side, and one reason Ed wasn't credible in May was because older voters saw him as an overgrown sixth-former.Speedy said:
No need, he's the popular leader of Oldham council.AndyJS said:
Let's wait until the votes are counted.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
The only problem is that he is an enemy of Corbyn and a right winger in a very left wing constituency, so there might be leakage to the Greens.
Same for the old people who voted 50% Tory.0 -
The left like their political violence.flightpath01 said:Seems as predicted masked anti capitalist (i.e. Corbyn supporters) descended to riot and violence in London.
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The Tory candidate apparently is a Better Off Out man, so it looks like neither Cameron nor Corbyn have a candidate to their tastes!Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2015/11/cllr-james-daly-selected-to-fight-the-oldham-west-and-royton-by-election.html0 -
For many Lefties, it's their idea of democracy.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
The left like their political violence.flightpath01 said:Seems as predicted masked anti capitalist (i.e. Corbyn supporters) descended to riot and violence in London.
Scumbags were on the rampage outside my office earlier. A few Tiggys and Jaspers crying their eyes out in Saville Row nick tonight. Shame.0 -
I never realised Justine Greening had so many moles....
#immature0 -
Bermondsey of course lost by a left-wing candidate even within the Labour Party... they seem to avoided that this timedavid_herdson said:
They jolly well should do, going into the election with a 15000 majority, more than half the vote last time, with the Lib Dems nowhere and the Tories in government.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
Has any opposition party *ever* lost a seat where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit - yes. Glasgow Govan, 1988, for one.
Let me rephrase the question: Has any opposition party *ever* lost a by-election in England where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit (2) - yes. Bermondsey, 1983.
OK. I'll give up now.0 -
The only difference is that Corbyn has lost an ally and gained yet another enemy in the PLP, the Tories never had a chance in Oldham anyway.HYUFD said:
The Tory candidate apparently is a Better Off Out man, so it looks like neither Cameron nor Corbyn have a candidate to their tastes!Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2015/11/cllr-james-daly-selected-to-fight-the-oldham-west-and-royton-by-election.html
Corbyn couldn't have avoided McMahon anyway since he is the local council leader and the new post GE members are not members for long enough (6 months) to vote for the selection, if Meacher had died a month or two later then Corbyn would had a chance of installing an ally in the seat.0 -
Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.0
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Peter Tatchell had called for an armed revolution, so of course he was ditched by everyone inside Labour, and of course he was gay at a time and place where that was socially not acceptable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Bermondsey of course lost by a left-wing candidate even within the Labour Party... they seem to avoided that this timedavid_herdson said:
They jolly well should do, going into the election with a 15000 majority, more than half the vote last time, with the Lib Dems nowhere and the Tories in government.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
Has any opposition party *ever* lost a seat where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit - yes. Glasgow Govan, 1988, for one.
Let me rephrase the question: Has any opposition party *ever* lost a by-election in England where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit (2) - yes. Bermondsey, 1983.
OK. I'll give up now.0 -
Indeed and at least Corbynistas can blame the candidate if Labour get a poor result I supposeSpeedy said:
The only difference is that Corbyn has lost an ally and gained yet another enemy in the PLP, the Tories never had a chance in Oldham anyway.HYUFD said:
The Tory candidate apparently is a Better Off Out man, so it looks like neither Cameron nor Corbyn have a candidate to their tastes!Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2015/11/cllr-james-daly-selected-to-fight-the-oldham-west-and-royton-by-election.html
Corbyn couldn't have avoided McMahon anyway since he is the local council leader and the new post GE members are not members for long enough (6 months) to vote for the selection, if Meacher had died a month or two later then Corbyn would had a chance of installing an ally in the seat.0 -
God I love Victoria Coren.0
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There has been a picture of a 'shrapnel' puncture from the inside out. But otherwise yes, there seems no published evidence either way.Speedy said:
So the 9000 pound cap on university fees is to be abolished.FrancisUrquhart said:
P.S. I don't believe the bomb story since there is no evidence from the wreckage itself of an explosion so far and the Russians, which would profit the most from the bomb story, deny it.
Egyptian airport security versus Russian plane maintenance. Its a tough call. I'm dubious about the bomb, but I don't think I would be that dubious if I was a prime minister.
I think politically the Russians are desperate to avoid a bomb story. Crap Russian airlines are always factored in.0 -
They are a bit late with that revelation. It was posted on here 24 hours ago that the UK had access to signals intelligence that suggested a 3rd party actor was involved.FrancisUrquhart said:
As it it the take isn't definitive alone but appears reasonable on the credibility scale0 -
Chukka is growing on me.
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Being gay was socially tolerable; it was being so in-your-face about it that put Tatchell outside polite society (well, not just that but it would have been enough by itself).Speedy said:
Peter Tatchell had called for an armed revolution, so of course he was ditched by everyone inside Labour, and of course he was gay at a time and place where that was socially not acceptable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Bermondsey of course lost by a left-wing candidate even within the Labour Party... they seem to avoided that this timedavid_herdson said:
They jolly well should do, going into the election with a 15000 majority, more than half the vote last time, with the Lib Dems nowhere and the Tories in government.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
Has any opposition party *ever* lost a seat where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit - yes. Glasgow Govan, 1988, for one.
Let me rephrase the question: Has any opposition party *ever* lost a by-election in England where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit (2) - yes. Bermondsey, 1983.
OK. I'll give up now.0 -
Still Labour's next PM in my view, though now in 2025 not 2020 as I thought in the summerfoxinsoxuk said:Chukka is growing on me.
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Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
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Sounds reasonable doesn't he? Of course he's in Labour Siberia as a consequence.foxinsoxuk said:Chukka is growing on me.
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I remember the Bermondsy by election. I was not there on the doorstep but remember the objection being more to Tatchells far left views than his homosexuality.david_herdson said:
Being gay was socially tolerable; it was being so in-your-face about it that put Tatchell outside polite society (well, not just that but it would have been enough by itself).Speedy said:
Peter Tatchell had called for an armed revolution, so of course he was ditched by everyone inside Labour, and of course he was gay at a time and place where that was socially not acceptable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Bermondsey of course lost by a left-wing candidate even within the Labour Party... they seem to avoided that this timedavid_herdson said:
They jolly well should do, going into the election with a 15000 majority, more than half the vote last time, with the Lib Dems nowhere and the Tories in government.Speedy said:Jon Warner @JonathanRWarner 54s54 seconds ago
So Jim McMahon is the new candidate for #OldhamWest. Couldn't have picked a better choice to champion our labour values!! (@CllrJimMcMahon)
So Labour hold Oldham West.
Has any opposition party *ever* lost a seat where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit - yes. Glasgow Govan, 1988, for one.
Let me rephrase the question: Has any opposition party *ever* lost a by-election in England where they started in a more commanding position?
Edit (2) - yes. Bermondsey, 1983.
OK. I'll give up now.0 -
Tory politicians get a better nights sleep and weekends off!bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
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Yes. I'm sure many are when there's an axe to grind. They're humans, not sacred untouchables who can do no wrong.bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
I know they say that no members of the public will suffer, but how many extra patients would you expect to die as a result of any strike action?0 -
The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !0
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Indeed!!foxinsoxuk said:
Tory politicians get a better nights sleep and weekends off!bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
Who is doing most damage to NHS patients. Hardworking Doctors or Tory policies - Discuss
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A bomb is by far the most likely cause to my thinking. It just seems an improbable time for an aeroplane to fail catastrophically: not on take-off or while climbing steeply, when the stresses are greatest, but at cruising altitude. It's one thing for a technical fault to force it down but quite another to simply break up in the air. Add to that the motive and opportunity that some IS sympathiser would have and the secondary effects on Egypt's western/Russian-based tourism and you have a strong and consistent hypothesis.flightpath01 said:
There has been a picture of a 'shrapnel' puncture from the inside out. But otherwise yes, there seems no published evidence either way.Speedy said:
So the 9000 pound cap on university fees is to be abolished.FrancisUrquhart said:
P.S. I don't believe the bomb story since there is no evidence from the wreckage itself of an explosion so far and the Russians, which would profit the most from the bomb story, deny it.
Egyptian airport security versus Russian plane maintenance. Its a tough call. I'm dubious about the bomb, but I don't think I would be that dubious if I was a prime minister.
I think politically the Russians are desperate to avoid a bomb story. Crap Russian airlines are always factored in.0 -
Chukka agrees with rent controls apparently0
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The easiest way to make sure that no patient suffers is to strike while they're not at work.watford30 said:
Yes. I'm sure many are when there's an axe to grind. They're humans, not sacred untouchables who can do no wrong.bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
I know they say that no members of the public will suffer, but how many extra patients would you expect to die as a result of any strike action?
The whole point of a strike is to make life difficult for the employer and, consequently, for the customer / end-user. Patients will suffer. Were that not the case the obvious conclusion would have to be that the NHS wouldn't notice if they were all let go.0 -
Do reasonable people call Londoners trash?welshowl said:
Sounds reasonable doesn't he? Of course he's in Labour Siberia as a consequence.foxinsoxuk said:Chukka is growing on me.
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Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.0 -
Bombing for peace is like shagging for virginity. Hitchens has been proved right time and time and time again on this.0
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The point of a strike is to convince your employer to concede points, not to make life difficult for an employer. Evidently, the ability to muster public opinion one way or another matters more than the profit motive when the government is employer.david_herdson said:
The easiest way to make sure that no patient suffers is to strike while they're not at work.watford30 said:
Yes. I'm sure many are when there's an axe to grind. They're humans, not sacred untouchables who can do no wrong.bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
I know they say that no members of the public will suffer, but how many extra patients would you expect to die as a result of any strike action?
The whole point of a strike is to make life difficult for the employer and, consequently, for the customer / end-user. Patients will suffer. Were that not the case the obvious conclusion would have to be that the NHS wouldn't notice if they were all let go.0 -
I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.0
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I'm behind so apologies on this - Syria is way too complicated now. There is NO case for wading in with yet more missiles.0
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We all want politicians who talk and act like normal people, except of course if they are non-Conservative politicians in which case they must be held to the moral standards of Nelson Mandela or preferably Jesus Christ.MP_SE said:
Do reasonable people call Londoners trash?welshowl said:
Sounds reasonable doesn't he? Of course he's in Labour Siberia as a consequence.foxinsoxuk said:Chukka is growing on me.
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Hitchens seems to have won QT according to Twitter... Quite a feat w Jones, Umunna and Coren on the panel0
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Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
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Undermining targets by a work to rule is an easy place to start. Not doing extra-contractual work thereby pushing up agency locum bills and leaving rota gaps, refusing to code thereby financially stressing the Trust. All of these are fairly easy to do.EPG said:
The point of a strike is to convince your employer to concede points, not to make life difficult for an employer. Evidently, the ability to muster public opinion one way or another matters more than the profit motive when the government is employer.david_herdson said:
The easiest way to make sure that no patient suffers is to strike while they're not at work.watford30 said:
Yes. I'm sure many are when there's an axe to grind. They're humans, not sacred untouchables who can do no wrong.bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
I know they say that no members of the public will suffer, but how many extra patients would you expect to die as a result of any strike action?
The whole point of a strike is to make life difficult for the employer and, consequently, for the customer / end-user. Patients will suffer. Were that not the case the obvious conclusion would have to be that the NHS wouldn't notice if they were all let go.0 -
Lol If they're in Calais they've arrived in bloody France...0
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Justine Greening is rather good I think. She sounds reasonable, she doesn't ooze weirdness/cruelty in the way that so many of the Cabinet do (step forward Osborne).0
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He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.0 -
Bromide!!Danny565 said:Justine Greening is rather good I think. She sounds reasonable, she doesn't ooze weirdness/cruelty in the way that so many of the Cabinet do (step forward Osborne).
0 -
watford30 said:
Yes. I'm sure many are when there's an axe to grind. They're humans, not sacred untouchables who can do no wrong.bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
I know they say that no members of the public will suffer, but how many extra patients would you expect to die as a result of any strike action?
We've been through this before. If junior doctors strike, there will be an impact on patients. My own father died as a consequence of a doctor's strike many years ago.
The counter-argument put forward by Dr Sox is that patients will also suffer if the current grievances aren't resolved.
That may be so but, personally, I dislike the dishonesty of a claim that doctors can go on strike without impacting patients. It's not only not true but if it were true it would render doctors pointless.
Doctors are as capable as any other group of being very hard working and dedicated while also regarding their own interests as paramount and uniquely deserving and rationalising away the harm their strike will cause patients.
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I'm no shill for BTL Landlords, but aren't rental yields lower in London than the North ?0
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Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early0 -
means doing 3 things - 3 jobs and 3 deceased rich relatives
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Oh yes, he was as left-wing as they come. Peter Hitchens still hates the Tories, seeing them as only interested in power for power's sake.bigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early0 -
Yes - I'm no pacifist but if we can't even work out which side we're on, charging in and killing a few people can't be the sensible or even decent option.Pulpstar said:I'm behind so apologies on this - Syria is way too complicated now. There is NO case for wading in with yet more missiles.
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foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
If you want pay to be determined by market forces - and I can see why you might when there are such shortages - then you can't have a state owned, state run system.
So which is it you want? A competitive market system where doctors get paid more but you also get payments by patients, insurance, private providers etc? Or a state run system where market forces are replaced by rationing and queuing and doctors' pay gets screwed down?
Seems to me you want the best of both worlds.
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I had the pleasure of chatting with Peter Hitchens on the phone earlier this year and he is a really nice guy. An incredible amount of people on Twitter beating themselves up for agreeing with him tonight... Why?! He speaks sensebigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early0 -
Yes. I believe yields for prime London real estate are virtually non-existent. They are relying on capital appreciation.Pulpstar said:I'm no shill for BTL Landlords, but aren't rental yields lower in London than the North ?
Today I was left scratching my head at why anyone would queue up overnight for the chance to buy a £200k studio flat or £315k for a one bed flat in Hounslow. A truly sorry state of affairs.0 -
Yes. Christopher Hitchens is one of my favourite writers. A sad loss.bigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early
0 -
It looks to me that the Tories want market forces only when it suits them.Cyclefree said:foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
If you want pay to be determined by market forces - and I can see why you might when there are such shortages - then you can't have a state owned, state run system.
So which is it you want? A competitive market system where doctors get paid more but you also get payments by patients, insurance, private providers etc? Or a state run system where market forces are replaced by rationing and queuing and doctors' pay gets screwed down?
Seems to me you want the best of both worlds.
They could incentivise people to work antisocial hours or they could use the power of being a monopoly employer to coerce people.
They may get their way, but dont expect support with targets etc.0 -
Doctors.bigjohnowls said:
Indeed!!foxinsoxuk said:
Tory politicians get a better nights sleep and weekends off!bigjohnowls said:
Doctors are clearly much more selfish than Tory politicians, Discusswatford30 said:Whining doctor on Question Time. 'Me Me Me'. All praise the NHS religion.
Who is doing most damage to NHS patients. Hardworking Doctors or Tory policies - Discuss0 -
Hah - I've found myself agreeing with Jenny Jones on the police. They've probably been cut a bit far and fast !isam said:
I had the pleasure of chatting with Peter Hitchens on the phone earlier this year and he is a really nice guy. An incredible amount of people on Twitter beating themselves up for agreeing with him tonight... Why?! He speaks sensebigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early
Hitchens point about Housing benefit/council house sell off was brilliant btw. Give up capital value for an ongoing expenditure stream - makes sense.0 -
You do not bomb for peace, you bomb to win.Pulpstar said:Bombing for peace is like shagging for virginity. Hitchens has been proved right time and time and time again on this.
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Anti Capitalist protestor smashes police car wearing £475 Colmar jacket
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/million-mask-march-protesters-set-fire-to-police-car-as-scuffles-break-out-at-anticapitalism-a3108171.html0 -
Why didn't Chuka run ! He's doing quite well tbh.0
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Win what? With whom? Would you like Britain to govern Syria? If not, who would you realistically hope to help gain power by dropping a few bombs?flightpath01 said:
You do not bomb for peace, you bomb to win.Pulpstar said:Bombing for peace is like shagging for virginity. Hitchens has been proved right time and time and time again on this.
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Who did you hope to gain power for by bombing and invading Iraq?NickPalmer said:
Win what? With whom? Would you like Britain to govern Syria? If not, who would you realistically hope to help gain power by dropping a few bombs?flightpath01 said:
You do not bomb for peace, you bomb to win.Pulpstar said:Bombing for peace is like shagging for virginity. Hitchens has been proved right time and time and time again on this.
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True enough. And I'm no great supporter of targets. Measurement is not the same as evaluation.foxinsoxuk said:
It looks to me that the Tories want market forces only when it suits them.Cyclefree said:foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
If you want pay to be determined by market forces - and I can see why you might when there are such shortages - then you can't have a state owned, state run system.
So which is it you want? A competitive market system where doctors get paid more but you also get payments by patients, insurance, private providers etc? Or a state run system where market forces are replaced by rationing and queuing and doctors' pay gets screwed down?
Seems to me you want the best of both worlds.
They could incentivise people to work antisocial hours or they could use the power of being a monopoly employer to coerce people.
They may get their way, but dont expect support with targets etc.
But it seems to me that doctors want a state run system but then complain when the monopoly employer seeks to coerce them.
So which is more important for doctors: having the state as employer or being paid properly and incentivised as in any market?
0 -
Torbay result LD hold
LD 1096 - 69.2% plus 39.3%
Con 234 - 14.8% minus 13.7%
UKIP 158 - 10.0% minus 9.7%
Lab 53 - 3.3% minus 9.0%
Green 43 - 2.7% minus 6.8%0 -
Opposing bombing Syria and opposing cuts in one night.... we'll make a Corbynista of you yetPulpstar said:
Hah - I've found myself agreeing with Jenny Jones on the police. They've probably been cut a bit far and fast !isam said:
I had the pleasure of chatting with Peter Hitchens on the phone earlier this year and he is a really nice guy. An incredible amount of people on Twitter beating themselves up for agreeing with him tonight... Why?! He speaks sensebigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early
0 -
Is Mr Sanders planning to try to regain Torbay in 2020? Might have a chance on the basis of this.MarkSenior said:Torbay result LD hold
LD 1096 - 69.2% plus 39.3%
Con 234 - 14.8% minus 13.7%
UKIP 158 - 10.0% minus 9.7%
Lab 53 - 3.3% minus 9.0%
Green 43 - 2.7% minus 6.8%0 -
Elected democrats - not my business of which particular type. but I hoped clearly better than Saddam. The fact that this turned out to be largely illusory is the main reason why I've been against interventions in Libya (as surely most now agree has been a disaster?) and Syria.Y0kel said:
Who did you hope to gain power for by bombing and invading Iraq?NickPalmer said:
Win what? With whom? Would you like Britain to govern Syria? If not, who would you realistically hope to help gain power by dropping a few bombs?0 -
That is a false choice. They do not want a paycut.Cyclefree said:
True enough. And I'm no great supporter of targets. Measurement is not the same as evaluation.foxinsoxuk said:
It looks to me that the Tories want market forces only when it suits them.Cyclefree said:foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
If you want pay to be determined by market forces - and I can see why you might when there are such shortages - then you can't have a state owned, state run system.
So which is it you want? A competitive market system where doctors get paid more but you also get payments by patients, insurance, private providers etc? Or a state run system where market forces are replaced by rationing and queuing and doctors' pay gets screwed down?
Seems to me you want the best of both worlds.
They could incentivise people to work antisocial hours or they could use the power of being a monopoly employer to coerce people.
They may get their way, but dont expect support with targets etc.
But it seems to me that doctors want a state run system but then complain when the monopoly employer seeks to coerce them.
So which is more important for doctors: having the state as employer or being paid properly and incentivised as in any market?
They also are not impressed by a health minister who refuses to negotiate for a year, who refuses to put figures to his proposals then comes out with a proposal the day before the strike ballot and presents it to the media rather than our negotiating representatives. We want everything on the table in the negotiations and a DoH that acts in good faith.0 -
There is a huge problem for Doctors when they choose to strike.foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
People. Stop. Dying.0 -
He was my second pref xDDanny565 said:
Opposing bombing Syria and opposing cuts in one night.... we'll make a Corbynista of you yetPulpstar said:
Hah - I've found myself agreeing with Jenny Jones on the police. They've probably been cut a bit far and fast !isam said:
I had the pleasure of chatting with Peter Hitchens on the phone earlier this year and he is a really nice guy. An incredible amount of people on Twitter beating themselves up for agreeing with him tonight... Why?! He speaks sensebigjohnowls said:
Did he?AndyJS said:
He used to be a Marxist until the age of 30.bigjohnowls said:
Me too. Frightening isn't itDanny565 said:I have been agreeing with Peter Hitchens far too much tonight.
Edit: a Trotskyist, not a Marxist.
His brother was one of my favorite people, sadly taken early0 -
More evidence of voters' regret where LDs lost in May.Danny565 said:
Is Mr Sanders planning to try to regain Torbay in 2020? Might have a chance on the basis of this.MarkSenior said:Torbay result LD hold
LD 1096 - 69.2% plus 39.3%
Con 234 - 14.8% minus 13.7%
UKIP 158 - 10.0% minus 9.7%
Lab 53 - 3.3% minus 9.0%
Green 43 - 2.7% minus 6.8%0 -
homeopathy in action?Dair said:
There is a huge problem for Doctors when they choose to strike.foxinsoxuk said:
Mostly they will vote with their feet. We have 50% vacancies in the East Midlands GP training scheme, and similar in specialities like Emergency Medicine.Pulpstar said:The Doctors will scweam and scweam and scweeeeeeeeeeeeeam !
Its called market forces. You would have thought Tories would understand that! If you want people to work unsocial hours then you have to pay a premium rate.
People. Stop. Dying.0
