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The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis0
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Don't mention ze tyres:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34155703
Vettel mentioned them once, but I think he got away with it.0 -
More From the BBC:
The BBC's Matthew Price is walking with hundreds of people who left Keleti station in Hungary's capital Budapest, intent on walking to Austria after they were stopped from boarding westbound trains.
One migrant tells him: "We will keep going until we get to Austria, and then Germany. Angela Merkel is our mum."
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Things that I get (and support) ...
- The idea that we have have feelings of humanity to unfortuate people and seek to help them
- The idea that we try to help poorer countries to develop economically
- The idea that we give up some of our national wealth to fund these aims
Things that I don't get ...
- The idea that any person has the right to say to a specific country "You must let me because I don't want to live anywhere else"
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Mr. NorthWales, the idealists will ignore reality until it's impossible not to.0
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees
Is this story true ?
Who knows.
But it is plausible looking at the number of young men in the pictures that a small proportion will be sympathetic to ISIS. It's an old tactic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Horse
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https://www.unodc.org/documents/human-trafficking/Migrant-Smuggling/Smuggling_of_Migrants_A_Global_Review.pdf
"Research on other North African countries suggests that most migrants are between 20 and 30 years old, belong to a poor middle class, and despite a high level of education, suffer from a lack of opportunities and public health services. Research also indicates that the better educated have a greater propensity to migrate.
"In a thorough analysis of smuggling of migrants and irregular migration in West Africa, de Haas argues that common push-pull models viewing poverty as the main cause of African mass migration are inconsistent with evidence that migrants are not among the poorest.
"On the basis of information gathered through 18 months of field research in various districts of Istanbul, Narli concludes that “smugglers networks coexist with criminal organizations, exerting a crime multiplier for them, for militias, guerrillas and terrorists”. Kalaitzidis holds the view that rather than transnational criminal organizations, “smuggling networks are semi-legal businesses that thrive on internal corruption and the unwillingness of the state to prosecute human smugglers”.
"smuggling has a rather benign reputation in the migrant community, and migrants often consider their handlers either philanthropists who want to help others or ordinary people who just want to make some money.
"the line between smuggler and migrant is sometimes blurred, as it seems that migrants may change roles in the course of the migration process or after their arrival in the destination country. Daniel has recorded testimonies of migrants who became smugglers in order to get the protection of networks while moving towards their final destination.
"Smugglers also know that they are operating with almost complete impunity thanks to ill-defined and weak legislation. The report noted that they do not see themselves as criminals, but rather as providers of a service that is in great demand.
"Those being smuggled are usually expected in the target country. The smuggling operation is usually commissioned from the target country."
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Although almost 5 years old, some eye-opening analysis from the UN...
https://www.unodc.org/documents/human-trafficking/Migrant-Smuggling/Smuggling_of_Migrants_A_Global_Review.pdf
"the lack of prospects for self-realization and the inability to meet personal aspirations are strong incentives for migrants..
"In the context of West Africa, relatively well-off individuals and households may consciously choose to migrate in order to enhance their livelihoods. This view is shared by authors who have analysed migration trends in other parts of the world, particularly in Asia and the Middle East. Schematically, migration is often perceived as the best option to improve their livelihood for working poor or young skilled people without prospects in their country of origin. According to UNODC research in India, migrants have to fulfil the families’ expectation, in particular where families participate in the financing of the travel.
"migrants’ control over their destiny depends largely on how deeply they are embedded in a transnational community and whether there are ethnic links among migrants. information provided by migrant networks does not necessarily mean that migrants’ knowledge about important aspects of their journey is sufficient. In reality, the gathering of information is often limited to loose contacts or casual telephone conversations, with rumours and hearsay playing a significant role in the decision-making process. This analysis is shared by Van Wijk, who
highlights that the migrants interviewed in the course of his research had chosen to go to the destination country—in that case, the Netherlands—on the rather vague basis that it was said to be good.
"a family’s expectations seem to have a great influence on the migrants’ motivation to reach their destination at any cost. although the journey might be a traumatic experience in which the migrant may suffer direct abuses and witness deaths of other migrants—nothing can spoil their determination.
"success stories of smuggled migrants increase community pressure: those who do not migrate not only remain poor but are also perceived as lazy. Reports about West African countries support the idea that the migration process is part of the social identity (becoming someone and getting married, versus being poor and marginalized) and receives the blessing of religious and paternal figures of the community.
"Another critical problem, is that migrants would keep silent about the difficulties they faced on their way to Europe and in the destination country, thus feeding the myth of a good life abroad.
"Research has established that an overwhelming majority of persons seeking asylum, particularly in Europe, use the services of smuggling networks.
"recourse to smugglers of migrants creates perverse effects because those who are most in need of international protection cannot afford to pay."0 -
Miss Plato, you're not emoting enough. This is no time for thinking. Put that evidence away and look at a sad photo until you realise *something* must be done.
Edited extra bit: ahem. That's a bit more sarcastic than I usually am. But I do have a burning hatred of emotional blackmail. Your heart's good for pumping blood, but if you're using it to make decisions then what's the point of your brain?0 -
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.0 -
There is no other British politician at present anywhere near David Cameron to take the Country through this most serious issueMonksfield said:
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.0 -
lol, We are in the hands of a PR blowhard. Rejoice!Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no other British politician at present anywhere near David Cameron to take the Country through this most serious issueMonksfield said:
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.0 -
As well as the increased pressure, to prevent the wall from flexing, Pirelli are concerned the teams are doing more than the recommended number of laps.Morris_Dancer said:Don't mention ze tyres:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34155703
Vettel mentioned them once, but I think he got away with it.
They also want the cars to reduce the negative camber on the front wheels.0 -
I saw the other Miliband brother on the news last night praising the EU's response to the migrant crisis. He went silent when it was pointed out that only Germany have agreed to take a large number of migrants and that the EU has not come up with a solution to the problem.richardDodd said:I think ghe thing to fear most in the EU is not the influx of Migrants.. it is the sheer incompetency of the Eu countries to enforce their own RIGID rules..if they cannot look after their borders then they should all stand down and let other people do it for them
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There is no need to be personalMonksfield said:
lol, We are in the hands of a PR blowhard. Rejoice!Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no other British politician at present anywhere near David Cameron to take the Country through this most serious issueMonksfield said:
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.0 -
Mr. B, hmm. Didn't they drop at least some recommendations on camber angles and pressure limits?0
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'Dead child image shows need for tough Australia-style border policies'
Tony Abbott, Australia’s prime minister, says the images of a dead Syrian boy on a Turkish beach were “very sad” but showed the need for tough Australian-style border policies, writes Jonathan Pearlman in Sydney.
"If you want to stop the deaths, if you want to stop the drownings you have got to stop the boats,” he told ABC News.
[Telegraph live feed.]0 -
I see Sturgeon has pledged to take 1,000 refugees. If they were independent I'm sure they'd be taking a 100,000...0
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Regarding the highway walk to Austria, the walkers are approaching the camp where the train stopped the other day.
Plus it's 19.15 local time, it is a 4 lane highway with no streetlights - where are they going to sleep?0 -
Mr. 86, is she going to keep them locked in Scotland, or has she joined the UK Government?0
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I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.0
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For want of clarity it was Cameron I to who I referred.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no need to be personalMonksfield said:
lol, We are in the hands of a PR blowhard. Rejoice!Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no other British politician at present anywhere near David Cameron to take the Country through this most serious issueMonksfield said:
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.
Although I'm of the left I'm no bleeding heart on immigration and my view is that what we're seeing here is of unprecedented difficulty. I do take the view that some of these people are migrants and that Europe for which read Germany has been idiotic to invite them all to come along. We simply cannot have the population of the Middle East choose to relocate to Europe.
But to say that only Cameron has unique authority to deal with this is utter nonsense. He's a politician and blows in the wind of public opinion like all the others. In fact possibly more so based on my observations.
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Evening all,
Wasn't there a BBC drama about 10-15 years ago called, I think, 'The Tribe' - in which there was a mass march of hungry people from Africa to Europe? The only thing I really can remember is that one of the marchers says at one point - "you can feed your cats, look at the food they get - surely you can feed us'.0 -
Jordan Spieth looks like being a 1 year wonder; such a shame.0
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Are you being ironic. It seems a little early to draw that conclusion!MikeK said:Jordan Spieth looks like being a 1 year wonder; such a shame.
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Pictures of the Hungarian migrants now walking to Germany:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34155701
This is just a nightmare for the EU. The more they take, the more will come. Africa's population is already a billion, and it will be 2.5 billion by 2050:
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140823_MAC567.png
I sympathise for the truly vulnerable, I really do, but European society simply can't cope with tens of millions coming, which is what will happen on the current path. And unless the UK gets restrictions on free movement, we'll see a big chunk of that.0 -
I'm sure we could, and should. It won't stop them dying on the mass march from other hazards though, only stopping the marching will.rottenborough said:Evening all,
Wasn't there a BBC drama about 10-15 years ago called, I think, 'The Tribe' - in which there was a mass march of hungry people from Africa to Europe? The only thing I really can remember is that one of the marchers says at one point - "you can feed your cats, look at the food they get - surely you can feed us'.0 -
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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A bit like the Jarrow march, yes. It's perfectly natural that everyone who is less well off than we are in this country want to move somewhere like this. But am I alone in finding the prospect of such an influx frightening? Am I scare-mongering to myself? Where are they all going to go?rottenborough said:Evening all,
Wasn't there a BBC drama about 10-15 years ago called, I think, 'The Tribe' - in which there was a mass march of hungry people from Africa to Europe? The only thing I really can remember is that one of the marchers says at one point - "you can feed your cats, look at the food they get - surely you can feed us'.0 -
PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.0 -
Thank you. I fully agree with your first paragraph but David Cameron is our Prime Minister and is taking the right policy decisions against considerable opposition which understandably has been affected by the dreadful photographs this weekMonksfield said:
For want of clarity it was Cameron I to who I referred.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no need to be personalMonksfield said:
lol, We are in the hands of a PR blowhard. Rejoice!Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no other British politician at present anywhere near David Cameron to take the Country through this most serious issueMonksfield said:
Everyone talking about reinstating border controls needs to recognise that even before Schengen land borders were essentially porous everywhere except to the eastern bloc.Big_G_NorthWales said:The BBC's reporting is so misleading re-iterating that the migrants are Syrian refugees when they have absolutely no way of verifying this. The most alarming feature is that the largest groups are young men who have no care for women or children and use their strength to fight and force their ways onto the trains. Even before the EU gets to trying to force quotas on member states they are going to have to explain how they intend assessing everyone from genuine Syrian refugees and others who may well be economic migrants. David Cameron is absolutely correct on his anaylsis and if the EU have any sense they will match David Cameron's offer to take refugees ONLY from the refugee camps. Additionally the Schengen agree needs to be suspended maybe even abolished and border controls throughout Europe re-instated. This would go a long way to resolving the crisis
Cameron's position might be correct but it is still different from what it was 24 hours ago. Who's to say it won't change again in another 48 hours when someone photographs a dead baby in Budapest? He basically follows the media mood and does so in his voice of authority TM. No more no less.
Although I'm of the left I'm no bleeding heart on immigration and my view is that what we're seeing here is of unprecedented difficulty. I do take the view that some of these people are migrants and that Europe for which read Germany has been idiotic to invite them all to come along. We simply cannot have the population of the Middle East choose to relocate to Europe.
But to say that only Cameron has unique authority to deal with this is utter nonsense. He's a politician and blows in the wind of public opinion like all the others. In fact possibly more so based on my observations.0 -
I think what she means is if Cameron accepts to let in x thousand she'll take a thousand of them. You'd be cheesed off if you made it here and were told 'you're going to Glenrothes'.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 86, is she going to keep them locked in Scotland, or has she joined the UK Government?
EDIT: Though if some of them can play football they may be able to find work quite easily.0 -
Oh dear, I touched a nerve there. I was giving my opinion on what I've seen on PB on the last couple of days, I wasn't trying to get attention.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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It is a shame that the best intention by European leaders may well be exacerbating the very problem they are attempting to solve. – Merkel for one has just opened a whole can of worms for many.JEO said:Pictures of the Hungarian migrants now walking to Germany:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34155701
This is just a nightmare for the EU. The more they take, the more will come. Africa's population is already a billion, and it will be 2.5 billion by 2050:
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140823_MAC567.png
I sympathise for the truly vulnerable, I really do, but European society simply can't cope with tens of millions coming, which is what will happen on the current path. And unless the UK gets restrictions on free movement, we'll see a big chunk of that.0 -
He's going to be a great golfer. Give him time to mature, learn to pace himself, consistency. I've said from the start that comparing him to McIlRoy was nonsense. In 5 years maybe.MikeK said:Jordan Spieth looks like being a 1 year wonder; such a shame.
He's still #2 in OWGR and also 2 in Fedex Cup.
I'll be inside the ropes to see him at East Lake in 2 weeks.0 -
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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@plato
'How many of Europe's asylum seekers are judged to be genuine refugees? http://bit.ly/1UrLpvX @FactCheck '
No mention of course on how many failed asylum seekers have actually been deported.0 -
And why the anger at Scotland pledging to take in refugees? Cameron's doing to exact same thing, but apparently he's brilliant, and Sturgeon is merely grandstanding.0
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I fear you are right.watford30 said:
They're going to be herded into the camp.Tim_B said:Regarding the highway walk to Austria, the walkers are approaching the camp where the train stopped the other day.
Plus it's 19.15 local time, it is a 4 lane highway with no streetlights - where are they going to sleep?0 -
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
If you actually listened to the conservative arguments, for us, it's more about "encouraging more people to take a dangerous trip" versus "not encouraging people to take a dangerous trip". On that, Cameron has not u-turned at all, taking refugees from the camps. Cameron's policy all along has been the sensible one, whereas Merkel will only result in more dangerous sea crossings and more dead children.
As for your second paragraph, you must be talking about me, as I was the one that asked the question. I don't think it's unreasonable to question why Germany stands alone in not having an insurgent hard right party, given that virtually all its neighbours do. It is certainly not converging to my own opinion as I am a Conservative supporter, not a UKIP one.0 -
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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.... and we all know how deep the long-term impact of a Diet of Worms can be.SimonStClare said:
It is a shame that the best intention by European leaders may well be exacerbating the very problem they are attempting to solve. – Merkel for one has just opened a whole can of worms for many.JEO said:Pictures of the Hungarian migrants now walking to Germany:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34155701
This is just a nightmare for the EU. The more they take, the more will come. Africa's population is already a billion, and it will be 2.5 billion by 2050:
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140823_MAC567.png
I sympathise for the truly vulnerable, I really do, but European society simply can't cope with tens of millions coming, which is what will happen on the current path. And unless the UK gets restrictions on free movement, we'll see a big chunk of that. 0 -
I wonder how many migrants would be heading to the UK if we had a Milliband or Corbyn lead government, with an open Chunnel policy.0
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Oh my dear - you're just a saint - a regular Jeanne d'Arc.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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I don't think questioning the wisdom of letting in large number of immigrants is necessarily right wing. Quite often those with economically right wing views are the most anti immigration, but the two are not intrinsically linked. In fact, I'd argue being anti immigration is a more left of centre view. The likes of Philip_Thompson of this parish give the most consistently right wing views (i.e. comfortable with immigration with a government committed to low taxes/low benefits).The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
Watching the Labour leadership debate last night I was struck by the arrogance of the candidates as they happily laid into the PM. When they want the working class to vote for them they pretend they care about their needs. But as soon as their votes aren't needed they grandstand and pontificate about how terrible the world is and how we* have a responsibility to help those not fortunate enough to have been born in this great country.
* By we I mean the average man/woman in the street. They as politicians, of course, won't be affected.0 -
Their actions are terroristic and founded on covetousness, which is another word for greed...JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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Ms Apocalypse, you did touch a nerve for someone like Simon to bristle.The_Apocalypse said:
Oh dear, I touched a nerve there. I was giving my opinion on what I've seen on PB on the last couple of days, I wasn't trying to get attention.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
I've been following PB for ten years (not as long as some, but a respectable time).
I think that what happened was that your comment triggered memories of the days when certain left-wing posters adopted the approach that anyone who supported the Tories must be evil, whereas the left were all morally correct (yes - it really was that bad).
It's all to easy to forget sometimes that you are actually a person of the centre-left (not hard left) with whom one can have a robust but enjoyable debate.0 -
We're not angry, I'm just taking the piss. If Scotland was independent we'd have a migrant crisis on our doorstep!The_Apocalypse said:And why the anger at Scotland pledging to take in refugees? Cameron's doing to exact same thing, but apparently he's brilliant, and Sturgeon is merely grandstanding.
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Perhaps because the SNP have already been thoroughly cynical in their political use of this crisis:The_Apocalypse said:And why the anger at Scotland pledging to take in refugees? Cameron's doing to exact same thing, but apparently he's brilliant, and Sturgeon is merely grandstanding.
https://twitter.com/BBCWorldatOne/status/639525590660460545
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Cameron has done a U-Turn. Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
....
I have listened to Conservative arguments. While you've conveyed you beliefs in a more reasonable tone, that makes me believe that you genuinely sympathise with the refugees even you disagree with Merkel's solution, others have gone on to actively demonise the refugees, have no compassion or sympathise for them whatsoever, belittle them for wanting to come to Europe instead of staying in a refugee camps in neighboring ME countries were they could be there for years, actively demonise the German chancellor as someone sending Germans to their deaths and prior to yesterday called views in which wanted us to take in refugees 'virtue signalling'.
Merkel's policy is humane, and kind - giving many Syrians a brand new opportunity. People on PB appear to think that Cameron's policy will stop dangerous crossings. The policy of simply giving aid has not stopped those dangerous crossings, which is why we are here now with a human catastrophe. Nothing, bar making Syria a safe place again will stop these crossings. Therefore, for those who have made such a journey, it is great to offer them home, a chance to rebuild, and a society to become a part of. I applaud Germany, and the response of many Germans - especially their football clubs - to this crisis.
On Alternative for Germany, it alarmed me partly because of much of the tone of PB is almost a will for Germany to opt for the kind of anti-immigrant, right-wing, populist parties that have proved popular in other places in Europe. As if somehow, these kinds of parties gaining popularity is amazing. People have talked of it all being Labour's fault rather public antipathy to more immigration. But it was only in the 50s, and 60s when there was public antipathy to immigration from Britain's former colonies. Britain has never been a fan of immigration, at least not in the post-war era.0 -
Yesterday on PB I saw a post which actively DID call the refugees terrorists, and a following one which called them greedy.JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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You may well be right Tim_B, I hope so. Have fun at East Lake, lucky devil.Tim_B said:
He's going to be a great golfer. Give him time to mature, learn to pace himself, consistency. I've said from the start that comparing him to McIlRoy was nonsense. In 5 years maybe.MikeK said:Jordan Spieth looks like being a 1 year wonder; such a shame.
He's still #2 in OWGR and also 2 in Fedex Cup.
I'll be inside the ropes to see him at East Lake in 2 weeks.0 -
I'm not a saint, but I don't believe these refugees are evil. I sympathise with their plight, and wish them the best - and hope that Britain can take some of them in. This is the completely opposite tone to the likes of the Hungarian PM, of which many on PB have taken to siding with.felix said:
Oh my dear - you're just a saint - a regular Jeanne d'Arc.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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Oh bless you, dear child.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
You are virtuous beyond words in a land of sinners and the damned.
/sarc0 -
Well I've seen other leftwing corbyn fan's on other sites saying we should match Germany on numbers ;-) I think that would give your answer ;-)watford30 said:I wonder how many migrants would be heading to the UK if we had a Milliband or Corbyn lead government, with an open Chunnel policy.
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Maybe Labour do not believe that helping those less fortunate is actively against the interests of the working classes!tlg86 said:
I don't think questioning the wisdom of letting in large number of immigrants is necessarily right wing. Quite often those with economically right wing views are the most anti immigration, but the two are not intrinsically linked. In fact, I'd argue being anti immigration is a more left of centre view. The likes of Philip_Thompson of this parish give the most consistently right wing views (i.e. comfortable with immigration with a government committed to low taxes/low benefits).The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
Watching the Labour leadership debate last night I was struck by the arrogance of the candidates as they happily laid into the PM. When they want the working class to vote for them they pretend they care about their needs. But as soon as their votes aren't needed they grandstand and pontificate about how terrible the world is and how we* have a responsibility to help those not fortunate enough to have been born in this great country.
* By we I mean the average man/woman in the street. They as politicians, of course, won't be affected.
It's not about questioning letting in large numbers of immigrants. It's the tone towards these refugees, in particular which is alarming. I mentioned the Right, because many of those with the most critical views of the refugees are those on the Right of British politics.0 -
I called these hordes of economic migrants terrorists, not any genuine refugee...The_Apocalypse said:
Yesterday on PB I saw a post which actively DID call the refugees terrorists, and a following one which called them greedy.JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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I don't believe anyone who is a Tory is evil, or nasty. However I really do not like the tone towards the refugees that many on the Right have taken. Quite frankly, I've been more than glad to see the likes of Ruth Davidson take a different tone.Disraeli said:
Ms Apocalypse, you did touch a nerve for someone like Simon to bristle.The_Apocalypse said:
Oh dear, I touched a nerve there. I was giving my opinion on what I've seen on PB on the last couple of days, I wasn't trying to get attention.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
I've been following PB for ten years (not as long as some, but a respectable time).
I think that what happened was that your comment triggered memories of the days when certain left-wing posters adopted the approach that anyone who supported the Tories must be evil, whereas the left were all morally correct (yes - it really was that bad).
It's all to easy to forget sometimes that you are actually a person of the centre-left (not hard left) with whom one can have a robust but enjoyable debate.0 -
@The_Apocalypse
' My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.'
You must have missed the comments on LabourList yesterday in response to the leadership candidates trying to outdo each other on how many asylum seekers we should take.
'The Labour leadership candidates have this morning weighed in on the refugee crisis, in which it’s estimated over 2,500 people have died since the start of this year.'0 -
Well that's a relief (on the refugees). But it's still a bit much to call the economic migrants terrorists.RodCrosby said:
I called these hordes of economic migrants terrorists, not any genuine refugee...The_Apocalypse said:
Yesterday on PB I saw a post which actively DID call the refugees terrorists, and a following one which called them greedy.JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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Does anyone know how reliable the Exaro news site is? Their wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaro) makes them sound reputable, but there;s no telling how impartial that is.
I've been linked to a story from there claiming that an unnamed senior Labour MP is being investigated by the police for both corrupt financial practices and child abuse - http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5653/police-investigate-senior-labour-mp-for-charging-constituents
Obviously, if Exaro can be trusted this could become a major story, but independent confirmation is definitely needed.0 -
Maybe the SNP genuinely believe that? It wouldn't surprise me. And Cameron's Tories have used the dark arts of politics many times.MattW said:
Perhaps because the SNP have already been thoroughly cynical in their political use of this crisis:The_Apocalypse said:And why the anger at Scotland pledging to take in refugees? Cameron's doing to exact same thing, but apparently he's brilliant, and Sturgeon is merely grandstanding.
https://twitter.com/BBCWorldatOne/status/6395255906604605450 -
I don't read LabourList, I've given up on it since anyone who disagreed with Corbyn was called a Tory.john_zims said:@The_Apocalypse
' My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.'
You must have missed the comments on LabourList yesterday in response to the leadership candidates trying to outdo each other on how many asylum seekers we should take.
'The Labour leadership candidates have this morning weighed in on the refugee crisis, in which it’s estimated over 2,500 people have died since the start of this year.'0 -
Damn. That is all.0
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The_Apocalypse said:tlg86 said:
Absolutely. The tone of some posters on this site has been very distressing.The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about questioning letting in large numbers of immigrants. It's the tone towards these refugees, in particular which is alarming. I mentioned the Right, because many of those with the most critical views of the refugees are those on the Right of British politics.
Was at the same event today as John Redwood, so managed to do a bit of pro-refugee lobbying. He was keener than I expected on retaining overseas aid and on doing everything possible with regard to camps in Turkey etc. But refused to commit to allowing a single refugee into the UK. Not even unaccompanied children.0 -
MrsB said:The_Apocalypse said:
Cocked up the blockquotes and brackets in that truncation. The last 2 paras were me, before that was the quote.tlg86 said:
Absolutely. The tone of some posters on this site has been very distressing.The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about questioning letting in large numbers of immigrants. It's the tone towards these refugees, in particular which is alarming. I mentioned the Right, because many of those with the most critical views of the refugees are those on the Right of British politics.
Was at the same event today as John Redwood, so managed to do a bit of pro-refugee lobbying. He was keener than I expected on retaining overseas aid and on doing everything possible with regard to camps in Turkey etc. But refused to commit to allowing a single refugee into the UK. Not even unaccompanied children.0 -
These two things are not mutually exclusive.The_Apocalypse said:... Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.
It's quite possible to do something whilst knowing that it will not actually help.
Throw bitter tears at the ocean if you must, but know all that comes back is the tide.
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@MrsB Not surprised on John Redwood's views. I suspect it'll be the more moderate part of the Conservative party that may be sympathetic to allowing refugees to come here. That said, even the likes of Tim Montgomerie - the bloke who used to work for IDS - have been very sympathetic towards the refugees.0
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The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
Cameron has done a U-Turn. Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
....
I have listened to Conservative arguments. While you've conveyed you beliefs in a more reasonable tone, that makes me believe that you genuinely sympathise with the refugees even you disagree with Merkel's solution, others have gone on to actively demonise the refugees, have no compassion or sympathise for them whatsoever, belittle them for wanting to come to Europe instead of
Merkel's policy is humane, and kind - giving many Syrians a brand new opportunity. People on PB appear to think that Cameron's policy will stop dangerous crossings. The policy of simply giving aid has not stopped those dangerous crossings, which is why we are here now with a human catastrophe. Nothing, bar making Syria a safe place again will stop these crossings. Therefore, for those who have made such a journey, it is great to offer them home, a chance to rebuild, and a society to become a part of. I applaud Germany, and the response of many Germans - especially their football clubs - to this crisis.
On Alternative for Germany, it alarmed me partly because of much of the tone of PB is almost a will for Germany to opt for the kind of anti-immigrant, right-wing, populist parties that have proved popular in other places in Europe. As if somehow, these kinds of parties gaining popularity is amazing. People have talked of it all being Labour's fault rather public antipathy to more immigration. But it was only in the 50s, and 60s when there was public antipathy to immigration from Britain's former colonies. Britain has never been a fan of immigration, at least not in the post-war era.0 -
I'm very dubious about them. Certainly Harvey Proctor doesn't like them:Robert_Of_Sheffield said:Does anyone know how reliable the Exaro news site is? Their wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaro) makes them sound reputable, but there;s no telling how impartial that is.
I've been linked to a story from there claiming that an unnamed senior Labour MP is being investigated by the police for both corrupt financial practices and child abuse - http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5653/police-investigate-senior-labour-mp-for-charging-constituents
Obviously, if Exaro can be trusted this could become a major story, but independent confirmation is definitely needed.
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To my eye, Mr Cameron is the only one who has been pursuing anything close to a rational policy on this, providing very substantial aid while the rest of the EU were doing far less.
We *know* that keeping groups such as this in the region is best - see John Major, safe havens and the Kurds (who are still there).
So we have Mrs Merkel first of all not meeting the contributions that would help keep the people in the area where they need to be kept (the UN has only about 40% of its required aid budget), *then* declaring that she will take in 800k people without any real process, setting off a stampede of refugees and "not refugees" across the continent, *then* accusing the one country (UK) in Europe that *did* step up to the plate of being remiss.
Has Merkel lost her marbles, promoting the people traffickers like this?
Meanwhile we have Mr Corbyn, who's group Stop the War Coalition (he is Chair) was heavily involved in stopping the UK contribution to facing down Isis (see Miliband's votes against intervention), suddenly demanding that the UK Govt have failed to address the crisis that his friends helped make worse.
Then we have a superficial, sanctimonious media firestorm targetting Mr Cameron on the record of two children who died as a result of being taken out to sea in a rubber dinghy by their parents, who were safe and secure, were *not* refugees, and who's father turned out to be a Health Tourist impatient because his sister in Canada had not yet saved up enough money to buy him a new set of false teeth.
Are we living inside Kafka?
I'm completely bemused, and currently feeling contemptuous of a lot of different public figures.
And on this occasion David Cameron is the only one with any moral stature left according to me.
He is right to stick to his guns and take the most vunerable people from the camps, rather than the stronger ones who are rich enough to get out uinder their own steam, and are now clamouring for attention.
That will start to undermine the traffickers and help the people where they need to be helped.
Please God, let the others come to their senses.0 -
When a PM says that taking in refugees won't solve a problem, in response to other countries planning to take in refugees, that implies that he's not keen on taking in refugees. And tbh, I'm not the one sounding bitter.GeoffM said:
These two things are not mutually exclusive.The_Apocalypse said:... Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.
It's quite possible to do something whilst knowing that it will not actually help.
Throw bitter tears at the ocean if you must, but know all that comes back is the tide.
0 -
Merkel has made a dreadful mistake by opening Germany to 800,000 migrants. This has created a Wordwide invitation to economic migrants to go to Germany and apparently there are 60 million seeking refuge and a better life. What happens in the next weeks when the numbers rises to the millions. At what point does Germany close her borders. David Cameron fore sees this and has put forward a sensible compromise. History will show that Merkel made one of the most catastrophic mistakes in European politicsThe_Apocalypse said:
I don't believe anyone who is a Tory is evil, or nasty. However I really do not like the tone towards the refugees that many on the Right have taken. Quite frankly, I've been more than glad to see the likes of Ruth Davidson take a different tone.Disraeli said:
Ms Apocalypse, you did touch a nerve for someone like Simon to bristle.The_Apocalypse said:
Oh dear, I touched a nerve there. I was giving my opinion on what I've seen on PB on the last couple of days, I wasn't trying to get attention.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
I've been following PB for ten years (not as long as some, but a respectable time).
I think that what happened was that your comment triggered memories of the days when certain left-wing posters adopted the approach that anyone who supported the Tories must be evil, whereas the left were all morally correct (yes - it really was that bad).
It's all to easy to forget sometimes that you are actually a person of the centre-left (not hard left) with whom one can have a robust but enjoyable debate.0 -
And as I said in my previous post, I think that those dangerous crossings are going to happen anyway, regardless of what Germany or Sweden do. Therefore it makes sense to offer a home to those who make it.Sean_F said:
The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
....JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
....0 -
Some people can adopt very unpleasant language about asylum seekers.The_Apocalypse said:
Maybe Labour do not believe that helping those less fortunate is actively against the interests of the working classes!tlg86 said:
I don't think questioning the wisdom of letting in large number of immigrants is necessarily right wing. Quite often those with economically right wing views are the most anti immigration, but the two are not intrinsically linked. In fact, I'd argue being anti immigration is a more left of centre view. The likes of Philip_Thompson of this parish give the most consistently right wing views (i.e. comfortable with immigration with a government committed to low taxes/low benefits).The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
Watching the Labour leadership debate last night I was struck by the arrogance of the candidates as they happily laid into the PM. When they want the working class to vote for them they pretend they care about their needs. But as soon as their votes aren't needed they grandstand and pontificate about how terrible the world is and how we* have a responsibility to help those not fortunate enough to have been born in this great country.
* By we I mean the average man/woman in the street. They as politicians, of course, won't be affected.
It's not about questioning letting in large numbers of immigrants. It's the tone towards these refugees, in particular which is alarming. I mentioned the Right, because many of those with the most critical views of the refugees are those on the Right of British politics.
But one can encounter extremely unpleasant language on the other side of the argument, too.0 -
Wasn't that in response to Germany's actions? What he is proposing might be rather different: get them from the camps (where they can be processed first?), rather than take in any Tom, Dick and Harry who has made the journey.The_Apocalypse said:
When a PM says that taking in refugees won't solve a problem, in response to other countries planning to take in refugees, that implies that he's not keen on taking in refugees. And tbh, I'm not the one sounding bitter.GeoffM said:
These two things are not mutually exclusive.The_Apocalypse said:... Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.
It's quite possible to do something whilst knowing that it will not actually help.
Throw bitter tears at the ocean if you must, but know all that comes back is the tide.
More importantly, Germany's actions just enriches the people smugglers. Ours might not (at least the ones on the seabound and European legs)0 -
It is quite rare to see someone quite as naive as The Apocolypse.. outside of the fourth form0
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Of course they aren't evil. Economic migrants now are doing exactly what the American settlers did in risking everything for a better future. They weren't evil either, but there were enough of them to destroy the civilisation they invaded.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not a saint, but I don't believe these refugees are evil. I sympathise with their plight, and wish them the best - and hope that Britain can take some of them in. This is the completely opposite tone to the likes of the Hungarian PM, of which many on PB have taken to siding with.felix said:
Oh my dear - you're just a saint - a regular Jeanne d'Arc.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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Looks kind of Private Eye ish.Robert_Of_Sheffield said:Does anyone know how reliable the Exaro news site is? Their wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaro) makes them sound reputable, but there;s no telling how impartial that is.
I've been linked to a story from there claiming that an unnamed senior Labour MP is being investigated by the police for both corrupt financial practices and child abuse - http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5653/police-investigate-senior-labour-mp-for-charging-constituents
Obviously, if Exaro can be trusted this could become a major story, but independent confirmation is definitely needed.
A cursory glance over their website and associated companies leads me to believe it is legit.
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As far as I was aware the 800,000 is specifically for those who are Syrians. It is only Syrians who will be getting automatic asylum. Everyone else will have to go through normal procedure. And on Merkel. I have to say, I think she'll go down as one of the great European leaders, having stepped to up to a humanitarian obligation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Merkel has made a dreadful mistake by opening Germany to 800,000 migrants. This has created a Wordwide invitation to economic migrants to go to Germany and apparently there are 60 million seeking refuge and a better life. What happens in the next weeks when the numbers rises to the millions. At what point does Germany close her borders. David Cameron fore sees this and has put forward a sensible compromise. History will show that Merkel made one of the most catastrophic mistakes in European politicsThe_Apocalypse said:
I don't believe anyone who is a Tory is evil, or nasty. However I really do not like the tone towards the refugees that many on the Right have taken. Quite frankly, I've been more than glad to see the likes of Ruth Davidson take a different tone.Disraeli said:
Ms Apocalypse, you did touch a nerve for someone like Simon to bristle.The_Apocalypse said:
Oh dear, I touched a nerve there. I was giving my opinion on what I've seen on PB on the last couple of days, I wasn't trying to get attention.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
I've been following PB for ten years (not as long as some, but a respectable time).
I think that what happened was that your comment triggered memories of the days when certain left-wing posters adopted the approach that anyone who supported the Tories must be evil, whereas the left were all morally correct (yes - it really was that bad).
It's all to easy to forget sometimes that you are actually a person of the centre-left (not hard left) with whom one can have a robust but enjoyable debate.0 -
One can try to deter dangerous crossings, by returning those who have been rescued to where they embarked from. Or one can encourage them, by bringing them to Europe.The_Apocalypse said:
And as I said in my previous post, I think that those dangerous crossings are going to happen anyway, regardless of what Germany or Sweden do. Therefore it makes sense to offer a home to those who make it.Sean_F said:
The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
....JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
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Cameron is still saying that taking in more refugees won't solve the problem. He's right. It's a sticking plaster on a serious wound. Merkel was wrong to give the impression that the door was wide open for anyone, because migrants who wants to enter Europe can do so illegally and they won't be stopped - see Hungary today. The migrants refuse to be registered.The_Apocalypse said:
Cameron has done a U-Turn. Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
....
Merkel's policy is humane, and kind - giving many Syrians a brand new opportunity. People on PB appear to think that Cameron's policy will stop dangerous crossings. The policy of simply giving aid has not stopped those dangerous crossings, which is why we are here now with a human catastrophe. Nothing, bar making Syria a safe place again will stop these crossings. Therefore, for those who have made such a journey, it is great to offer them home, a chance to rebuild, and a society to become a part of. I applaud Germany, and the response of many Germans - especially their football clubs - to this crisis.
On Alternative for Germany, it alarmed me partly because of much of the tone of PB is almost a will for Germany to opt for the kind of anti-immigrant, right-wing, populist parties that have proved popular in other places in Europe. As if somehow, these kinds of parties gaining popularity is amazing. People have talked of it all being Labour's fault rather public antipathy to more immigration. But it was only in the 50s, and 60s when there was public antipathy to immigration from Britain's former colonies. Britain has never been a fan of immigration, at least not in the post-war era.
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What the hell is the fourth form? Do you mean sixth form. I love for not taking the PB stance I'm 'naive' btw.richardDodd said:It is quite rare to see someone quite as naive as The Apocolypse.. outside of the fourth form
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Really? Co-conspirators with criminal gangs, to gain unlawful entry to our countries, to loot our benefit system, to intimidate us into capitulation by sheer force of numbers, to act violently and threateningly when challenged, to act kamikaze-like in their determination, to weaken our resolve with the bodies of their kith and kin littering our beaches?The_Apocalypse said:
Well that's a relief (on the refugees). But it's still a bit much to call the economic migrants terrorists.RodCrosby said:
I called these hordes of economic migrants terrorists, not any genuine refugee...The_Apocalypse said:
Yesterday on PB I saw a post which actively DID call the refugees terrorists, and a following one which called them greedy.JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
Sweet reasonableness itself!0 -
TA Is that supposed to be English.. maybe you should have another go..
The fourth form is two forms below the sixth form..0 -
JosiasJessop said:
Wasn't that in response to Germany's actions? What he is proposing might be rather different: get them from the camps (where they can be processed first?), rather than take in any Tom, Dick and Harry who has made the journey.The_Apocalypse said:
When a PM says that taking in refugees won't solve a problem, in response to other countries planning to take in refugees, that implies that he's not keen on taking in refugees. And tbh, I'm not the one sounding bitter.GeoffM said:
These two things are not mutually exclusive.The_Apocalypse said:... Just a few days ago he told us taking in more refugees would not solve the problem. Now, he's taking in refugees.
It's quite possible to do something whilst knowing that it will not actually help.
Throw bitter tears at the ocean if you must, but know all that comes back is the tide.
More importantly, Germany's actions just enriches the people smugglers. Ours might not (at least the ones on the seabound and European legs)
I don't think Germany is planning to take in every Tom, Dick and Harry. And rather suspiciously these proposals only leaked yesterday, after the front-page headlines. Prior to that, there was very little from Cameron on taking in refugees. If he was really only responding to Germany, he would have endorsed the idea of taking in refugees, but sighted that we need to more to the solve the problem.0 -
Well said.AnneJGP said:
Of course they aren't evil. Economic migrants now are doing exactly what the American settlers did in risking everything for a better future. They weren't evil either, but there were enough of them to destroy the civilisation they invaded.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not a saint, but I don't believe these refugees are evil. I sympathise with their plight, and wish them the best - and hope that Britain can take some of them in. This is the completely opposite tone to the likes of the Hungarian PM, of which many on PB have taken to siding with.felix said:
Oh my dear - you're just a saint - a regular Jeanne d'Arc.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
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The_Apocalypse - there have been such things quite recently - remember the Exeter backpack bomb?0
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So back to Syria then. Somehow, I don't think that solves the humanitarian crisis either....Sean_F said:
One can try to deter dangerous crossings, by returning those who have been rescued to where they embarked from. Or one can encourage them, by bringing them to Europe.The_Apocalypse said:
And as I said in my previous post, I think that those dangerous crossings are going to happen anyway, regardless of what Germany or Sweden do. Therefore it makes sense to offer a home to those who make it.Sean_F said:
The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
....JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
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wah shield = upThe_Apocalypse said:
What the hell is the fourth form? Do you mean sixth form. I love for not taking the PB stance I'm 'naive' btw.richardDodd said:It is quite rare to see someone quite as naive as The Apocolypse.. outside of the fourth form
The fourth form is two years below the lower sixth.
/wah0 -
I hardly doubt there is a deliberate plot among migrants to intimidate us into capitulation by the force of numbers - a lot of them are coming because they want a better life. And to loot our benefit system? Really?RodCrosby said:
Really? Co-conspirators with criminal gangs, to gain unlawful entry to our countries, to loot our benefit system, to intimidate us into capitulation by sheer force of numbers, to act violently and threateningly when challenged, to act kamikaze-like in their determination, to weaken our resolve with the bodies of their kith and kin littering our beaches?The_Apocalypse said:
Well that's a relief (on the refugees). But it's still a bit much to call the economic migrants terrorists.RodCrosby said:
I called these hordes of economic migrants terrorists, not any genuine refugee...The_Apocalypse said:
Yesterday on PB I saw a post which actively DID call the refugees terrorists, and a following one which called them greedy.JEO said:
I don't think anyone is calling refugees terrorists and greedy. They are saying that some of the people posing as refugees might be economic migrants, and a small few may be terrorists.The_Apocalypse said:
I'm not upset actually, I'm quite happy that Cameron is taking in refugees. My 'upset' as you call it is more at the reactions of those on this website. And the Left, unlike the Right aren't calling refugees terrorists and greedy.MP_SE said:
I think she is just upset that the Nasty Party will be providing assistance in a way that is both ethical and fair. Whilst those on the left engage in mass virtue signalling and come up with suggestions which would result in countless deaths.SimonStClare said:
Why do you go through this boring routine of insulting others just to get attention? If you have something interesting, informative or entertaining to add to the discussion just say it.The_Apocalypse said:I have to say @DavidL's post was brilliant (FPT). If only more of the Conservative party had his outlook in general, the country would probably be in a better place. I particularly agreed with his assessment that some of the statements on the refugees are close to offensive. Reading PB over the last couple of days, I now know why I'm not someone on the Right-Wing of British politics.
Sweet reasonableness itself!0 -
I noticed some posts on the previous thread making snide comments about Abdullah Kurdi needing some dental work.
He was imprisoned by the Assad regime and was tortured. This torture involved his teeth being removed.
Do you really think it frivolous for victims of torture to seek medical treatment?0 -
Why just Syria.. there are people from all over Africa, and not all of them from countries that are sympathetic to our way of life.0
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Why does it 'make sense' ?The_Apocalypse said:
And as I said in my previous post, I think that those dangerous crossings are going to happen anyway, regardless of what Germany or Sweden do. Therefore it makes sense to offer a home to those who make it.Sean_F said:
The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
....JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
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I have to stick up for the confusion - I guess it makes sense, but although the years 12-13 I attended at school were the 6th form, not once in the previous years had any other year been referred to as a 'form'. I certainly didn't make the connection at first glance.richardDodd said:TA Is that supposed to be English.. maybe you should have another go..
The fourth form is two forms below the sixth form..
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Got a linky, sunshine?hoveite said:I noticed some posts on the previous thread making snide comments about Abdullah Kurdi needing some dental work.
He was imprisoned by the Assad regime and was tortured. This torture involved his teeth being removed.
Do you really think it frivolous for victims of torture to seek medical treatment?0 -
For me, if some Syrian refugee turns up it's far better to take them in, and make them a productive member of society then abandon them and simply hope they stop them coming.JosiasJessop said:
Why does it 'make sense' ?The_Apocalypse said:
And as I said in my previous post, I think that those dangerous crossings are going to happen anyway, regardless of what Germany or Sweden do. Therefore it makes sense to offer a home to those who make it.Sean_F said:
The view that many of us share is that the policies of Germany and Sweden will encourage people to keep crossing the Meditarranean. And will encourage people to keep moving across the Middle East and Africa so that they can cross the Mediterranean.The_Apocalypse said:
....JEO said:
Cameron has only done a U-turn if you see the issue as "taking <1,000 refugees" versus "taking >1,000 refugees".The_Apocalypse said:PB worships David Cameron as some amazing great, when really as @Monkfield says he simply did a U-Turn, probably because The Sun and Mail front-pages. He's a PR guy first and foremost, and if Cameron is the best politician this country has to offer then we are well and truly screwed. I'm glad he did that U-Turn, but it was a U-Turn nonetheless.
And I have to laugh at how badly PB wants German public opinion to correspond to their assessments of the refugees. Asking why Alternative For Germany aren't shooting up in polls, as if it's some kind of abomination that they aren't following the lead of other European countries by voting for Right-Wing crazies such as Front Nationale.
....0
