Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is Hillary in trouble and can ‘The Donald’ last?

24

Comments

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    TKJ Rotherham and Rochdale

    Lol - I don't know ,my club have been debating if we should do it on the fans site,didn't know we had so many lefty fans :D
  • On topic, yes and yes. The next POTUS is going to be horribly flawed. Again.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,672
    notme said:

    TKJ.. I will be back in London in a couple of weeks to work for the BBC and it will be interesting for me to see if there has been an attitude change from my last visit of a couple or so weeks ago ..I will be working with the same people and everyone was quite laid back about refugees at that point in time.

    If you listened to radio 5 more immigration propaganda with the emotional blackmail stories,it would make you angry,no impartiality in the Syrian refugees crisis at all.
    Yes, the repeatedly mocked Cameron's talks of many thousands getting refugee status in the UK, from UN camps, but then lauded Sturgeon's announcement that she welcomes a 1,000.

    It's now one of those situations on social media in which it is not possible to have an alternative view. You just have to keep your head down.

    We are all shy tories now.
    No - you should not keep your head down. What is it with this namby pamby self-censorship?!!

    Say what you think. People may disagree; so what. You don't have to read the incoherent abuse. That's what a delete button is for. If being British stands for anything it should stand for standing up to bullies.

    I should add that, other than this forum - where the quality of debate is really very high, I don't use social media. It strikes me as something for idiots without a life - and most of what goes onto it is little better than "duckspeak". We would get a better quality of discussion if people spent more time thinking before speaking. About 99% of what is in people's heads is not worth making public, anywhere.

  • TKJ Would your club house them in the stadium.. not all of he residents in the area..town.. are football supporters..
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Mr pulp and Mr Watford,very good ;-)
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    'Why are the media hiding all the UkAid that has been distributed by DFID to Syria @SkyNews @BBCNews '


    Why are the media hiding the fact that 10 years on from the Gleneagles agreement the UK has met the 0.7% target of aid to national income whereas Germany 0.41% & Italy 0.16% are not even close ?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,706
    edited September 2015
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest Clinton vs Trump poll (from Democratic-leaning pollster PPP):

    Clinton 46%
    Trump 44%

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

    That's a damning verdict on Clinton.

    AN Other would be leading Trump 2 - 1.
    Not really. It doesn't make that much difference at the moment. See the same link - Trump leads Sanders by 1 point and is 6 behind Biden.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AndyJS said:

    "The Great Migration is a sign of increasing wealth, not abject poverty" — Fraser Nelson:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/increasing-wealth-is-the-cause-of-the-great-migration-not-a-cure-for-it/

    ‘We must help African countries to develop economic and social opportunities so that people want to stay.’

    Except they don't want to stay. As soon as they can afford it, they buy a smartphone and a steerage class ticket on some trafficker's Titanic...
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,902

    Mr. Monksfield, those in Calais are not refugees. France isn't that bad.

    It's all rather muddy though these days isn't it? When does a refugee become a migrant?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. Monksfield, certainly possible to disagree with his position, but it is at least coherent. Merkel's approach is stupid and dangerous.

    It's classic Darwinism - if you survive the trip you're welcome here.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Monksfield

    'Has he got a position? If so, it's changed today by 45 degrees. If the focus turns to Calais again next week, he'll be back to building fences.'


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    Interesting fact regarding Germany and migration.

    The UK allowed eastern Europeans to work in Britain in 2004 as soon as they joined the EU. Germany didn't allow them to work until 2011.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10445585/Labour-made-a-spectacular-mistake-on-immigration-admits-Jack-Straw.html
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited September 2015
    john_zims said:

    @Monksfield

    'Has he got a position? If so, it's changed today by 45 degrees. If the focus turns to Calais again next week, he'll be back to building fences.'


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?

    To escape from The French?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,902
    john_zims said:

    @Monksfield

    'Has he got a position? If so, it's changed today by 45 degrees. If the focus turns to Calais again next week, he'll be back to building fences.'


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?

    For the same reason refugees are fleeing from Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary and so on....
  • Mr. B, if anyone refers back to a certain period in this thread, I blame you for that comment.

    Mr. Monksfield, when they're in a safe country and keep moving.
  • BBC reporting the 500 refugees detained on a Hungarian train heading for a refugee camp, have decided to do a runner – Meanwhile, those that had arrived at the camp, simply climbed back over the fence and buggered off. – Hungarian/German immigrant policy going to plan..?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited September 2015
    This is a pretty stunning fact from Fraser Nelson.

    If you misjudge the refugee crisis, you incubate a political crisis: this is the lesson that David Cameron has learnt. Efforts intended to help can end up causing harm, costing more lives. Since the Italian navy decided to send rescue missions to the Mediterranean, the number of people making the crossing (and perishing) has trebled.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2015
    https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/639816350714736641
    Mr Whittingdale wrote to Rhona Fairhead, chair of the BBC trust, to say the coverage of EU matters so far has not been “faultless”.

    He suggested that any complaints over the corporation’s coverage should be dealt with within 24 hours in order for content to be as impartial as possible.

    “The potential for unwarranted distortions to informed debate bears high risks, and the longer that erroneous views or partial coverage are allowed to stand unchallenged or uncorrected, the greater the chance of public and democratic detriment,” he wrote.

    “There can be no doubt that the EU referendum will be a pivotal moment in this country’s history – as such, I am sure that you will agree that the coverage of this referendum by our broadcasters must be beyond reproach,” Mr Whittingdale wrote.

    “Whilst the UK’s broadcasters, and indeed out regulatory system, has a well-deserved reputation for high quality, impartial coverage, evidence such as Lord Wilson’s BBC Governors Review of 2005 shows that the track-record in coverage of EU matters is not faultless."
    - See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/culture-and-sport/articles/story/john-whittingdale-bbc-could-risk-undermining-eu-referendum#sthash.8HGD2WPa.dpuf
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Monksfield


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?

    'For the same reason refugees are fleeing from Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary and so on....'


    So France isn't good enough to claim asylum ?

    What's the problem, less generous benefits or maybe they are not actually 'refugees' ?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Plato said:

    https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/639816350714736641

    Mr Whittingdale wrote to Rhona Fairhead, chair of the BBC trust, to say the coverage of EU matters so far has not been “faultless”.

    He suggested that any complaints over the corporation’s coverage should be dealt with within 24 hours in order for content to be as impartial as possible.

    “The potential for unwarranted distortions to informed debate bears high risks, and the longer that erroneous views or partial coverage are allowed to stand unchallenged or uncorrected, the greater the chance of public and democratic detriment,” he wrote.

    “There can be no doubt that the EU referendum will be a pivotal moment in this country’s history – as such, I am sure that you will agree that the coverage of this referendum by our broadcasters must be beyond reproach,” Mr Whittingdale wrote.

    “Whilst the UK’s broadcasters, and indeed out regulatory system, has a well-deserved reputation for high quality, impartial coverage, evidence such as Lord Wilson’s BBC Governors Review of 2005 shows that the track-record in coverage of EU matters is not faultless."
    - See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/culture-and-sport/articles/story/john-whittingdale-bbc-could-risk-undermining-eu-referendum#sthash.8HGD2WPa.dpuf
    Mr Whittingdale needs to get more sleep
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    john_zims said:

    @Monksfield


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?

    'For the same reason refugees are fleeing from Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary and so on....'


    So France isn't good enough to claim asylum ?

    What's the problem, less generous benefits or maybe they are not actually 'refugees' ?

    Quite. Those fleeing Calais are Asylum Shoppers. They've essentially looked into which country offers them the greatest benefits and the best chance of not returning.

    Rightly or wrongly they think it is worth significantly risking their lives to move from the perfectly safe nation of France to the UK.

    In terms of Turkey and Hungary its the same, just not to quite the same level.

    Little more than comparetheasylummarket.com
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    BBC reporting the 500 refugees detained on a Hungarian train heading for a refugee camp, have decided to do a runner – Meanwhile, those that had arrived at the camp, simply climbed back over the fence and buggered off. – Hungarian/German immigrant policy going to plan..?

    Nothing will change until Winter and it becomes too cold to travel. Otherwise the only thing that will cause the numbers transiting to fall, would be a substantial border fence between the Balkans and the rest of Europe, on a par with that separating the two Koreas.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    JEO said:

    This is a pretty stunning fact from Fraser Nelson.

    If you misjudge the refugee crisis, you incubate a political crisis: this is the lesson that David Cameron has learnt. Efforts intended to help can end up causing harm, costing more lives. Since the Italian navy decided to send rescue missions to the Mediterranean, the number of people making the crossing (and perishing) has trebled.

    When you have a welfare state that rewards poor decisions and life choices, dont be surprised when you increase the number of poor decisions and life choices.
  • Mr. JS, plus, if Hungary gets a reputation as being hard to enter *and* hard to leave that will put off future asylum seekers/migrants.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    That whole Dublin protocol (?) is so broken and needs to be suspended. It just makes this mess even more complex.
  • TKJ.. I work for the drama dept..last worked in BBC news in the late 60s

    I thought that BBC News was employing people from the drama department these days?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    john_zims said:

    @Monksfield


    Can you give us an idea why 'refugees' would be fleeing from France ?

    'For the same reason refugees are fleeing from Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary and so on....'


    So France isn't good enough to claim asylum ?

    What's the problem, less generous benefits or maybe they are not actually 'refugees' ?

    Both in many cases.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,902
    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    It's fairly clear, and I'm not passing judgement on this, that someone i.e. Merkel has behind the scenes leaned on Hungary to act in a way that may deter the wave i.e. Enforce Dublin. They have little to gain by preventing the wave going where it wants and it'll cost them a fortune. How long are they prepared to put up with the world's critical eye for Germany?

    Why is this all about Europe? Given the background, there are plenty of other first and second wotld countries who could be taking refugees?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The Donald is on the Tonight Show this evening.
  • Mr. B, where has that nickname come from?

    After fleeing captivity, Sir Roger Mortimer was referred to by Edward II as 'the Mortimer'.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    "European leaders attempting to impose quotas of migrants on countries across the continent are “encouraging” people to make “potentially lethal” journeys, David Cameron has said.

    The Prime Minister rejected calls from Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, and other European leaders including Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, for Britain to take its “fair share” of migrants. He said that the Government’s plan to resettle thousands of Syrian refugees is “a better approach” because you are not encouraging people to make “dangerous crossings”."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11843189/EU-refugee-crisis-Migrants-in-Bicske-station-Hungary-siege-continues-overnight-live.html
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Watching FP2 at Monza, they showed video of Louis Hamilton and Stirling Moss going round the old banked circuit in 50s era Mercedes Silver Arrows. Way cool stuff.
  • Mr. JS, Cameron's spot on.
  • I do admire the resolve and determination of those columns of refugees who are absolutely determined to get to Germany.. I hope they all prosper..
  • Mr. B, only listened to snippets (Lewis*).

    Was that some fancypants American channel?

    I like Monza but I fear the sharp end will be a procession again.
  • initforthemoneyinitforthemoney Posts: 736
    edited September 2015
    The nickname is clearly derived from Mr Trump's successful completion of a list of 2000+ foot hills south of the Highland Fault in Scotland.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sky: migrants being tear-gassed as they try to break out of holding-camp in Hungary.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, where has that nickname come from?

    After fleeing captivity, Sir Roger Mortimer was referred to by Edward II as 'the Mortimer'.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style-blog/wp/2015/09/01/why-does-everyone-call-donald-trump-the-donald-its-an-interesting-story/
  • Mr. Perdix, indeed.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, only listened to snippets (Lewis*).

    Was that some fancypants American channel?

    I like Monza but I fear the sharp end will be a procession again.

    It was on NBCSN.

    I know it's Lewis, but the all English commentary team always call him Louise. For some reason I seem to spell it Louis for that reason.

    The atmosphere is a bit subdued over Justin Wilson.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,703
    perdix said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
    Perhaps we'd be better off out ;)
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sky: Pakistani migrant dies after falling on to train tracks while fleeing police in Hungary.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:

    Sky: Pakistani migrant dies after falling on to train tracks while fleeing police in Hungary.

    If Germany wants to take as many migrants as possible, why don't they fly planes to the Middle East and bring them in directly? There could be a rolling service of planes going backwards and forwards continuously. Then we wouldn't have these chaotic and tragic scenes in Hungary.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    From the article Whether fair or not – several other Secretaries of State have used similar arrangements

    Really? Which other US Secretary of State channeled classified emails through a server located in someone else's bathroom? Bonus points for naming two others.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    From the article Whether fair or not – several other Secretaries of State have used similar arrangements

    Really? Which other US Secretary of State channeled classified emails through a server located in someone else's bathroom? Bonus points for naming two others.

    I already covered that GeoffM - check near the start of the thread.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    RodCrosby said:

    Sky: Pakistani migrant dies after falling on to train tracks while fleeing police in Hungary.

    So not from Syria..
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    BBC World News has video of extremists throwing firecrackers into the migrants at the station.

    Hundreds have left the station and are walking to Germany. Police are escorting them to keep them out of traffic lanes. The stream is hundreds of yards long.
  • Pulpstar said:

    perdix said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
    Perhaps we'd be better off out ;)
    But what about all the gazillions of jobs we'd put 'at risk'?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    TGOHF said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Sky: Pakistani migrant dies after falling on to train tracks while fleeing police in Hungary.

    So not from Syria..
    The other day when the Hungarian authorities were checking the trains,70 Bangladeshi's were taken off.
  • perdix said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
    Indeed.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Gawd. Paddy Ashdown, another sanctimonious so and so.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    From the article Whether fair or not – several other Secretaries of State have used similar arrangements

    Really? Which other US Secretary of State channeled classified emails through a server located in someone else's bathroom? Bonus points for naming two others.

    I already covered that GeoffM - check near the start of the thread.
    Thanks @Tim_B
    I usually read the whole thread before commenting but that was such a bizarre comment that I jumped straight in. Will catch up now with what has been said - but I know without looking that your contribution will be top notch and you'll have already killed off this ridiculous Hillary spin.
  • I think ghe thing to fear most in the EU is not the influx of Migrants.. it is the sheer incompetency of the Eu countries to enforce their own RIGID rules..if they cannot look after their borders then they should all stand down and let other people do it for them
  • Austin Mitchell ‏@AVMitchell2010 2h2 hours ago

    Isn't bringing Syrian refugees from camps outside the EU favouring the least enterprising who'd not had the initiative to escape?

    You can’t fault his logic….
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tykejohnno

    'The other day when the Hungarian authorities were checking the trains,70 Bangladeshi's were taken off.'

    Wasn't aware of a war in Bangladesh.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Sky: Pakistani migrant dies after falling on to train tracks while fleeing police in Hungary.

    So not from Syria..
    The other day when the Hungarian authorities were checking the trains,70 Bangladeshi's were taken off.
    Fleeing the floods perhaps ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,285
    edited September 2015

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    It's fairly clear, and I'm not passing judgement on this, that someone i.e. Merkel has behind the scenes leaned on Hungary to act in a way that may deter the wave i.e. Enforce Dublin. They have little to gain by preventing the wave going where it wants and it'll cost them a fortune. How long are they prepared to put up with the world's critical eye for Germany?

    Why is this all about Europe? Given the background, there are plenty of other first and second wotld countries who could be taking refugees?
    At the moment, it kinda looks like Asia and Africa have decided to migrate to Europe. Why would the Americas and Australia want to get involved in that?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    On topic, yes and yes. The next POTUS is going to be horribly flawed. Again.

    Maybe, but it's wise to reflect that people who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    It's fairly clear, and I'm not passing judgement on this, that someone i.e. Merkel has behind the scenes leaned on Hungary to act in a way that may deter the wave i.e. Enforce Dublin. They have little to gain by preventing the wave going where it wants and it'll cost them a fortune. How long are they prepared to put up with the world's critical eye for Germany?

    Why is this all about Europe? Given the background, there are plenty of other first and second wotld countries who could be taking refugees?
    At the moment, it kinda looks like Asia and Africa have decided to migrate to Europe. Why would the Americas and Australia want to get involved in that?
    Oz seem to have it nailed - no tunnel and no rickety boats allowed to land.
  • Where I find this all interesting is in the media (minus the Express who continue to plough their own furrow) have had a concerted campaign to guilt trip the public into demanding something that is against their own interest. We see similar campaigns when the Government wants us to go to war. I can't see that this is in their own interests, or particularly in line with editorial policy in many cases, so I wonder where it's coming from and why.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,703

    Pulpstar said:

    perdix said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
    Perhaps we'd be better off out ;)
    But what about all the gazillions of jobs we'd put 'at risk'?
    I'm actually in favour of working together with our European allies in theory - together we could achieve alot.

    But the system strikes me as so broken right now, that I'll be voting to leave atm.
  • Mr. Dodd, to be fair, the EU was equally incompetent when it came to the eurozone rules.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
  • MD That is why I think it may well be an out vote in the ref..people have had their eyes opened to the amazing level of incompetence and just how much they are a bunch of tossers
  • Mr. Dodd, whilst I think the current situation has helped Out, I still think In has the win easily in hand.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
    When it's too late.
  • Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    Makes sense to me. If word goes around the globe that Hungary will wave migrants on to Germany then more migrants will keep coming. If word goes around that if you enter Hungary you get no further then people will find a different route.

    Hungary could be avoided by the migrants I'm assuming by them going via Croatia and Slovenia instead. If Hungary shows a very hard face now then that could divert newcomers that way.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    perdix said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    They're trying to apply the EU rules on registered asylum seekers in the first EU country they arrive in. They've already been in Greece but they didn't bother to apply those rules.
    The Euro currency is dysfunctional, the EU asylum policy is dysfunctional and the EU project is dysfunctional because it's based on a political construct which is devoid of common sense.
    Perhaps we'd be better off out ;)
    But what about all the gazillions of jobs we'd put 'at risk'?
    I'm actually in favour of working together with our European allies in theory - together we could achieve alot.

    But the system strikes me as so broken right now, that I'll be voting to leave atm.
    We haven't had any "European allies" since 1945.
  • Mr. 30, as Machiavelli wrote, identifying a problem when it's small is difficult, but curing it is easy if you can discover it. By the time a problem becomes obvious, it's too large to be easily cured.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Mr. Dodd, whilst I think the current situation has helped Out, I still think In has the win easily in hand.

    Latest 3 polls showed roughly Yes 55, No 45.
  • Mr. JS, if I were an In chap I wouldn't be concerned. There's a tendency to stick with the status quo as well.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    Never heard of a woman called Vesper before.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    From the BBC Ongoing report on the migration situation.
    Eastern European leaders' agreements on migrants
    Posted at 16:58

    Key points from the emergency meeting of Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary:

    * Czech Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka says Europe is "witnessing chaos"
    * He says the leaders agreed on the need to protect borders and fight trafficking
    * A German plan for a binding quota system for relocating migrants was opposed
    * However, the Czech Republic and Slovakia say they could accept a railway corridor for Syrian refugees travelling from Hungary to Germany, if Berlin and Budapest agree.


    The UK not the only country prepared to stand against Germany's rushed proposals, it seems.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
    Anecdote alert:

    Funny you should mention that. This afternoon I overheard a conversation between two German chaps and they were talking about this "sudden crisis" and Germany's latest response to it. They were agreed that they didn't like what their government was proposing but that to voice any contrary opinion was to be labelled a neo-nazi. According to them so many people were frightened of the label that they preferred to stay silent.

    No idea how typical these chaps were, they were reasonably well dressed and, I would guess in their thirties, young professionals.

    /Anecdote alert
  • Mr. Disraeli, for now.

    If Germany/France's quotas for those countries was around zero, they'd be more amenable, I think.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    France not good enough for them:

    "Hundreds of people living in the Jungle camp in Calais have gone on hunger strike. A group of more than 100 Eritreans, Syrians and Sudanese people marched from the camp towards Calais town centre this morning carrying banners and chanting “freedom, freedom.”"

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/04/refugee-migration-crisis-live-eu-biggest-test-since-second-world-war
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,989
    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    It should be fairly well known that UKIP doesn't favour current levels of migration.
  • AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
    Anecdote alert:

    Funny you should mention that. This afternoon I overheard a conversation between two German chaps and they were talking about this "sudden crisis" and Germany's latest response to it. They were agreed that they didn't like what their government was proposing but that to voice any contrary opinion was to be labelled a neo-nazi. According to them so many people were frightened of the label that they preferred to stay silent.

    No idea how typical these chaps were, they were reasonably well dressed and, I would guess in their thirties, young professionals.

    /Anecdote alert
    So essentially the situation in Germany is just like it has been there in the past... go against the will of the government and be labelled.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    Never heard of a woman called Vesper before.
    parents must have been Bond fans...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,902

    AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
    This is what the change of approach in Hungary is really about IMHO
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,902
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    Never heard of a woman called Vesper before.
    Not watch Casino Royale?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    Never heard of a woman called Vesper before.
    parents must have been Bond fans...
    Vesper dies in the movie - here she just resigns. Over promise, under deliver
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Slovakia’s leftist Prime Minister Robert Fico warned that uncontrolled migration raised the risk of terrorists circulating freely within the EU, while insisting that the EU’s Schengen system of passport-free travel must remain intact."

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/04/refugee-migration-crisis-live-eu-biggest-test-since-second-world-war
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,703

    Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    Makes sense to me. If word goes around the globe that Hungary will wave migrants on to Germany then more migrants will keep coming. If word goes around that if you enter Hungary you get no further then people will find a different route.

    Hungary could be avoided by the migrants I'm assuming by them going via Croatia and Slovenia instead. If Hungary shows a very hard face now then that could divert newcomers that way.
    Hungary is tough on the migrants, whereas Germany has opened it's doors to the lot of them.

    That's the way it looks right now - and the migrants will all be tuned into social media on their smartphones. So the future ones will indeed be looking to either avoid Hungary or pass through as quickly as possible.
    They're all looking to get to Germany/Austria now. It's a very cold calculation by Orban, but it seems to have worked.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    AndyJS said:

    There are probably tens of millions of people from each of China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and from African countries who would like to take the opportunity of migrating to Germany or Sweden. Also, many countries have persecuted minorities who would leave if they were able to: for example Tamils in Sri Lanka, Hindus in Bangladesh, Christians in Pakistan, etc. So hundreds of millions would move to Europe if they possibly could. The Germans don't seem to understand this, with their open door policy.

    How long before German public opinion turns ?
    Anecdote alert:

    Funny you should mention that. This afternoon I overheard a conversation between two German chaps and they were talking about this "sudden crisis" and Germany's latest response to it. They were agreed that they didn't like what their government was proposing but that to voice any contrary opinion was to be labelled a neo-nazi. According to them so many people were frightened of the label that they preferred to stay silent.

    No idea how typical these chaps were, they were reasonably well dressed and, I would guess in their thirties, young professionals.

    /Anecdote alert
    So essentially the situation in Germany is just like it has been there in the past... go against the will of the government and be labelled.
    I think that would be a fair summary, Mr. Blue.
  • Esper makes me think of the magical people from the ice planet in Phantasy Star IV.

    Bloody good game, that is.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RodCrosby said:

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: The chair of UKIP Hertfordshire has resigned saying UKIP's legacy is "turning our backs on people fleeing terror". http://t.co/EShw3P6STW

    Never heard of a woman called Vesper before.
    parents must have been Bond fans...
    Vesper Lynd, yes ... or Marvel comics where Vesper was a mutant.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,703
    AndyJS said:

    France not good enough for them:

    "Hundreds of people living in the Jungle camp in Calais have gone on hunger strike. A group of more than 100 Eritreans, Syrians and Sudanese people marched from the camp towards Calais town centre this morning carrying banners and chanting “freedom, freedom.”"

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/04/refugee-migration-crisis-live-eu-biggest-test-since-second-world-war

    They'll need to head to a refugee camp in Southern Turkey if they want to get in :P
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    One of the reasons why Germany might be happy to take a much greater share of the displaced folks is their birth rate is now below Japan's:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32929962
  • Tim_B said:

    This whole Hungary thing seems counter-intuitive. On the one hand they are putting up barriers and passing laws to stop migrants / refugees entering, and on the other hand they try to stop those already there who want to leave from going.

    Makes sense to me. If word goes around the globe that Hungary will wave migrants on to Germany then more migrants will keep coming. If word goes around that if you enter Hungary you get no further then people will find a different route.

    Hungary could be avoided by the migrants I'm assuming by them going via Croatia and Slovenia instead. If Hungary shows a very hard face now then that could divert newcomers that way.
    Also, being hardline initially gives a better bargaining position for negotiations. I expect there will be greater help for Hungary to "cope".
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    AndyJS said:

    "Slovakia’s leftist Prime Minister Robert Fico warned that uncontrolled migration raised the risk of terrorists circulating freely within the EU, while insisting that the EU’s Schengen system of passport-free travel must remain intact."

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/04/refugee-migration-crisis-live-eu-biggest-test-since-second-world-war

    Are they all this stupid? Free movement is exactly what Schengen is about. If he wants to stop terrorists circulating, perhaps the Agreement should be suspended.

    The reality is that he wants those whom Slovakia doesn't want, to be free to leave unhindered, and move elsewhere.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited September 2015
    calum said:

    One of the reasons why Germany might be happy to take a much greater share of the displaced folks is their birth rate is now below Japan's:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32929962

    This. Plus they have a non-dysfunctional labour market; their capacity (indeed, need) to absorb more immigration is stronger than much of the rest of Europe.
  • Calum .. Poor old Adolf will be spinning in his grave "Dumpkoffs, I said Aryan Race,,not Syrian race"
Sign In or Register to comment.