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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Six days until the ballot closes and some people still haven’t received their ballot papers
Labour members and supporters have begun protesting to the party about their lack of ballot papers with less than a week to go before the leadership election closes.
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Good Morning Comrade Ada ....
Nice to see another lady on PB ....0 -
My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...0
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Hope you feel better! The black dog is a bastard.Innocent_Abroad said:My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...
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Sorry to hear that! Hope GP has some options for you.Innocent_Abroad said:My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...
Anecdotally, this rings true from my experience: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/psychedelics-may-help-treat-depression/0 -
Foul individual !!RobD said:
I purchased that outstanding barnet topper from a charity event in aid of "The Bedford Distressed Toupee Gentleman's Association"
Discretion forbids me from revealing the history of said item formerly the property of a notoriously discrete Obama 50/1 winning gambler from 2008.0 -
A Barnet topper? Are you describing Sturgeon's plan for (sweet) (F)FA?JackW said:
Foul individual !!RobD said:
I purchased that outstanding barnet topper from a charity event in aid of "The Bedford Distressed Toupee Gentleman's Association"
Discretion forbids me from revealing the history of said item formerly the property of a notoriously discrete Obama 50/1 winning gambler from 2008.
A worthy cause, regardless!0 -
A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of people are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.0
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But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.0 -
This chaos has been brewing for a few days hasn't it? There was the comments by one of Cooper's organisers that she had not yet received her ballot yesterday. What struck me as odd about that was she is presumably a full member of some standing. Why have such members not received their ballots?
If there was any realistic attempt to vet the £3ers I could see delays in those but if members are not getting their ballots something is seriously wrong. The risk of this process having to be extended are increasing.0 -
On topic, Labour is coming close to a position that whoever wins will have to face accusations that their victory was won falsely. A tight result where there's been many votes cast by people who may not support Labour and where there's not been even more cast by those who do can have no effect other than to taint the leader's legitimacy and the party's competence.
The loudest voices will probably come from within: either Coopermen claiming that Corbyn won off the back of Tories and Militants, or Corbynistas claiming that the election was stolen from them as legitimate voters were denied their say. How the new leader would get over such a position and impose or create discipline within the party, goodness knows. The only effective response to a tainted process is an unambiguously effective outcome - that however it happened, the party got the right person. But does any of the candidates have the quality to make such an impression?0 -
CR..The pic should have the caption "This child died because his father was stupid"0
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Normally the adage is cock up rather than conspiracy.
But in this case, there is a clear conspiracy to keep Corbyn supporters off the ballot - the purge seems squarely aimed at those who might support Corbyn. Though this particular move strikes as cock up.
So Labour have managed to have BOTH cock up and conspiracy in their process. What a bunch of clowns.0 -
If the UK lets in thousands of ME refugees,Migrants, then we will be importing a timebomb, primed to go off at some future date, the more refugees then the shorter the fuse.0
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Yet, perhaps quite a lot of people react against being guilt-tripped. This morning's Yougov poll shows Yvette Cooper's proposal being rejected by 48/41%, and this at a time when media mawkishness is at its height.Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.0 -
Its far too late for a late swing for Cooper , the Corbynites are on the march in lockstep over the cliff edge ..I expect Corbyn to win on first preferences of between 50-60%0
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"This child died because his father was greedy"richardDodd said:CR..The pic should have the caption "This child died because his father was stupid"
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Maybe I am becoming numb to seeing bodies taken from beaches,it is almost a daily event on Italian news programmes, most of them are obviously adults and made the choice themselves to risk their lives...they gambled and lost..The little boy who drowned had his life taken away by his fathers wrong choice.0
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The LP are now the party of anachronism and a two dimensional quasi Marxist like Corbyn is the perfect person to lead it into oblivion ; in retrospect it's as inevitable as water finding its way down a hill ..if Corbyn had never existed it would be necessary to invent him , after all , he represents every thing that is wrong with the LP0
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Yet the world media chose not to notice the 17,000 under 5 year olds who died yesterday from disease and malnutrition.Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
Funny old world, where one act of desperate stupidity gets your grief on every channel whilst 17,000 carry their own little coffins, unreported.0 -
TBF, I don't see any real problem with the numbers under discussion. It gives the government cover when the EU demands we follow Germany's example and let in anyone who comes from the Middle East.richardDodd said:If the UK lets in thousands of ME refugees,Migrants, then we will be importing a timebomb, primed to go off at some future date, the more refugees then the shorter the fuse.
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Is there a petition I can sign applauding the government's pre-existing policy, and urging them to stand firm?Sean_F said:
Yet, perhaps quite a lot of people react against being guilt-tripped. This morning's Yougov poll shows Yvette Cooper's proposal being rejected by 48/41%, and this at a time when media mawkishness is at its height.Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
I'm increasingly annoyed by comments I read, like the one by Justin Forsyth "boss" of Save the Children in this morning's Metro, who claim they speak for the whole public in Britain.0 -
Arguably, the EU is culpable. If all rescued refugees were returned to their point of origin, virtually none would bother trying to cross.GeoffM said:
"This child died because his father was greedy"richardDodd said:CR..The pic should have the caption "This child died because his father was stupid"
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Highlight of the morning's papers is the piece on Blair in the guardian where he's complaining about the Daily Mail. He says, presumably without a hint of irony, that "the truth counts for little".0
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I voted yesterday. LK, YC, JC, AB.0
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Lots of talking heads claim to speak for the public.Casino_Royale said:
Is there a petition I can sign applauding the government's pre-existing policy, and urging them to stand firm?Sean_F said:
Yet, perhaps quite a lot of people react against being guilt-tripped. This morning's Yougov poll shows Yvette Cooper's proposal being rejected by 48/41%, and this at a time when media mawkishness is at its height.Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
I'm increasingly annoyed by comments I read, like the one by Justin Forsyth "boss" of Save the Children in this morning's Metro, who claim they speak for the whole public in Britain.
WRT this poll, it's worth noting 59% of Conservatives rejected Yvette Cooper's suggestion.0 -
I wouldn't dream (although i want to) of venting my spleen on this on facebook or Twitter. It's quite clear that words like "evil", "fascist" and "nazi" would be hurled at me but, worse than that, it could risk my job if it were quotable and attributable to me.Sean_F said:
Lots of talking heads claim to speak for the public.Casino_Royale said:
Is there a petition I can sign applauding the government's pre-existing policy, and urging them to stand firm?Sean_F said:
Yet, perhaps quite a lot of people react against being guilt-tripped. This morning's Yougov poll shows Yvette Cooper's proposal being rejected by 48/41%, and this at a time when media mawkishness is at its height.Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
I'm increasingly annoyed by comments I read, like the one by Justin Forsyth "boss" of Save the Children in this morning's Metro, who claim they speak for the whole public in Britain.
WRT this poll, it's worth noting 59% of Conservatives rejected Yvette Cooper's suggestion.
How many others are in a similar situation where they feel no option but to self-censor?0 -
Good morning, everyone.
If Corbyn doesn't win, the pollsters are going to look a shade ridiculous.0 -
Don't you think he's suffered enough?richardDodd said:CR..The pic should have the caption "This child died because his father was stupid"
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Ridiculous is this year's black though....Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
If Corbyn doesn't win, the pollsters are going to look a shade ridiculous.0 -
CR I know how you feel,I took years of very nasty verbal abuse at the BBC for having the temerity of taking the Telegraph into the studio..now I don't give a feck..but it can be very intimidating .0
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Yes, that's my view too. Provided it's a one-off targetted refuge offered to thousands and not an open ended commitment of providing sanctuary to X thousands per month ad infinitum.Sean_F said:
TBF, I don't see any real problem with the numbers under discussion. It gives the government cover when the EU demands we follow Germany's example and let in anyone who comes from the Middle East.richardDodd said:If the UK lets in thousands of ME refugees,Migrants, then we will be importing a timebomb, primed to go off at some future date, the more refugees then the shorter the fuse.
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I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.0 -
You speak for me too, David.DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.
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Morning all,
Excellent news! What a day it will be if Cooper snatches this at the last minute, and pollsters and pundits are in penance.0 -
DL..In your desperation to escape the war torn hell hole of Budrum, a popular Turkish holiday resort,would you load your young family,without life preservers, into an obviously unseaworthy rubber dinghy and set sail at night into a recently storm lashed sea..I doubt it...and yet that is what happened..in most peoples book.. it was extremely stupid
I do think we should take in some refugees but we should be extremely selective..0 -
Hear, hear.DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.
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Thirded.SouthamObserver said:
Hear, hear.DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.0 -
I hope you feel better.Innocent_Abroad said:My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...
Actually, the result from Caerffili was very depressing.
223 people vote for someone who talks about gassing immigrants .... in the borough that is 98 per cent white. (Probably the ward of Bedwas is even whiter).
Caerffili is in the bottom 3 for ethnic diversity. Of all the boroughs in England & Wales, only Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent are less diverse.
And the council is run by one of the most corrupt & incompetent Labour administrations in South Wales.
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Richard, they weren't on holiday in Budrum,, they had no right to live or work there, they weren't welcome.richardDodd said:DL..In your desperation to escape the war torn hell hole of Budrum, a popular Turkish holiday resort,would you load your young family,without life preservers, into an obviously unseaworthy rubber dinghy and set sail at night into a recently storm lashed sea..I doubt it...and yet that is what happened..in most peoples book.. it was extremely stupid
I do think we should take in some refugees but we should be extremely selective..
Who knows what lies they were told by the criminals they had to deal with? Who knows what threats they faced when they were on that beach and men with guns want to leave pdq. Stories of brutality by these thugs are already legion.0 -
The desparation to escape a life devoid of hope is a powerful thing. If you have lost everything, a short ride on a dinghy to perceived salvation looks a lot more alluring than if you are leading a life of prosperity in a nice part of Italy.richardDodd said:DL..In your desperation to escape the war torn hell hole of Budrum, a popular Turkish holiday resort,would you load your young family,without life preservers, into an obviously unseaworthy rubber dinghy and set sail at night into a recently storm lashed sea..I doubt it...and yet that is what happened..in most peoples book.. it was extremely stupid
I do think we should take in some refugees but we should be extremely selective..
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Fraser Nelson:
"The Great Migration is a 21st century problem, far bigger than Syria and bigger than the authorities in Brussels seem able to comprehend."0 -
Mr. L, indeed, but by throwing open the floodgates, Merkel's encouraging more to make the journey, however dangerous it might be.
Proper border control and off-site (preferable in countries either affected by conflict or adjacent to it) processing is the best way forward. It diminishes illegal journeys because there's no point if you can't get in, and provides safe passage for those who are given the green light.
Germany's approach is monumental in its stupidity. It'll lead to more needless deaths, and enrich people smugglers (which also helps fund ISIS).0 -
One of? How many corrupt and incompetent labour administrations are there in South Wales? I know it's where the bulk of the population is, but still .YBarddCwsc said:
I hope you feel better.Innocent_Abroad said:My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...
Actually, the result from Caerffili was very depressing.
223 people vote for someone who talks about gassing immigrants .... in the borough that is 98 per cent white. (Probably the ward of Bedwas is even whiter).
Caerffili is in the bottom 3 for ethnic diversity. Of all the boroughs in England & Wales, only Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent are less diverse.
And the council is run by one of the most corrupt & incompetent Labour administrations in South Wales.
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There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham0
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As I understand it, the family of the boy in the photo were Kurds. Is there any reason why they were unable to live in Iraqi Kurdistan?0
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Depends on how the preferences fall. If Corybn backers switch to Burnham then they could still come back if Burham gets knocked out third.HYUFD said:There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham
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Indeed. my boss and a lot of my collegues are friends on facebook. I would never risk looking 'right' but 'hard'.Casino_Royale said:
I wouldn't dream (although i want to) of venting my spleen on this on facebook or Twitter. It's quite clear that words like "evil", "fascist" and "nazi" would be hurled at me but, worse than that, it could risk my job if it were quotable and attributable to me.Sean_F said:
Lots of talking heads claim to speak for the public.Casino_Royale said:Sean_F said:Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
WRT this poll, it's worth noting 59% of Conservatives rejected Yvette Cooper's suggestion.
How many others are in a similar situation where they feel no option but to self-censor?
Much better to appear 'nice'. Maybe thats why Facebook/Twitter etc are such a echo chamber, because they relfect the need to 'fit in'.0 -
Okay... and now for the hard part: what's your solution?DavidL said:There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.
I'm sorry, but once again we have a great moral argument, with no practical answers. Really doesn't help. Indeed it's why Europe is going to commit national/civilizational suicide.
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And this is precisely why if you're going to help the refugees, you do it at source in the camps. As our Gov't is. I think they're getting the balance right.DavidL said:I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking
Merkel's actions are going to lead to more drownings of young men escaping a life of poverty in west Africa than any comments @RichardDodd or @Rodcrosby are making on Victor Orban/ the father of the boy who died off the coast of Bodrum.
Double the defences at Calais, and double the humanity at Suruc.0 -
Pretty much the same fate awaits them in the EU though. Notwithstanding Merkel beckoning them in.DavidL said:
Richard, they weren't on holiday in Budrum,, they had no right to live or work there, they weren't welcome.richardDodd said:DL..In your desperation to escape the war torn hell hole of Budrum, a popular Turkish holiday resort,would you load your young family,without life preservers, into an obviously unseaworthy rubber dinghy and set sail at night into a recently storm lashed sea..I doubt it...and yet that is what happened..in most peoples book.. it was extremely stupid
I do think we should take in some refugees but we should be extremely selective..
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Mr. Slackbladder, it's easier to say 'you're heartless' than make a coherent explanation in 140 characters.0
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You can top up on Andy Burnham at 8.6 on Betfair. I'm not tinkering with it as I like my 'book' as it is, but it's probably fair enough odds.HYUFD said:There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham
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Well, some of the councils (like Torfaen) have never been out of Labour’s hands and have huge Labour majorities.kle4 said:
One of? How many corrupt and incompetent labour administrations are there in South Wales? I know it's where the bulk of the population is, but still .YBarddCwsc said:
I hope you feel better.Innocent_Abroad said:My apologies for my comments on previous thread. Acute depression - pills stopped working - need to see GP this morning...
Actually, the result from Caerffili was very depressing.
223 people vote for someone who talks about gassing immigrants .... in the borough that is 98 per cent white. (Probably the ward of Bedwas is even whiter).
Caerffili is in the bottom 3 for ethnic diversity. Of all the boroughs in England & Wales, only Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent are less diverse.
And the council is run by one of the most corrupt & incompetent Labour administrations in South Wales.
Any opposition in the Eastern Valleys comes from poorly organised Independents (usually ex-Labour councillors who have fallen out with the governing group).
The Tories, LibDems and Plaid are all very weak in terms of seats in the Eastern Valleys (Plaid are stronger in the West and have held some of the councils albeit briefly).
Probably only some form of PR could hope to regenerate the councils into something like functioning organisations with proper scrutiny and debate.
(To be fair, Pembrokeshire has also had a whole host of problems -- illegal payments to Chief Executives, Porsche leasing arrangements for senior Council staff -- and it is a fairly Tory area of Wales. The Council is run by Con-dependents).
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F1: I think P1 starts in just over half an hour. Red Bull are reportedly taking an engine change. That may make them odds against for points.0
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108Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Slackbladder, it's easier to say 'you're heartless' than make a coherent explanation in 140 characters.
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David L.. Nor were they being shot at.. I assume you think the father took the right decision,,I sincerely hope that in the circumstances you would not have gone down that route.The person responsible for the deaths of those two kids was the one charged with their protection..he failed them. An absolute tragedy.0
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Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
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J IT would probably be vetoed by the Russians...as ever.0
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I would be more than happy for the UK + other to spend however much it took to create safe zones in neighbouring countries and to fund camps with facilities.Jonathan said:Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
Or actually go in and sort out Syria probably, removing Assad and ISIS and creating a stable country somehow.
Ultimately thats the only solution in the long term, otherwise a good chunk of the Middle East will just decamp to the EU...which would be a disaster for everyone.0 -
Robert Hardman outdoes himself
"Let us be clear that there is nothing remotely comparable to the Nazi era in the conduct or intentions of the Hungarian authorities."
The previous sentence: "The last time people were duped on to trains around here, they ended up in Auschwitz."
Is there a term for the fuckwittery of when a journalist asks for a comparison not to be made before doing it themselves in the previous or following sentence ? And with the Nazis too ! What a cretin.
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WTF has it got to do with us ?Jonathan said:Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
Russia - big ally yes. France ex-colonial power maybe.
We should stay well out of it.0 -
A must read article.This is about denizens of the Third World now having the wherewithal and technology to up sticks and illegally head for the First World.rottenborough said:Fraser Nelson:
"The Great Migration is a 21st century problem, far bigger than Syria and bigger than the authorities in Brussels seem able to comprehend."
Greed, pure a simple.0 -
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much.RodCrosby said:
A must read article.This is about denizens of the Third World now having the wherewithal and technology to up sticks and illegally head for the First World.rottenborough said:Fraser Nelson:
"The Great Migration is a 21st century problem, far bigger than Syria and bigger than the authorities in Brussels seem able to comprehend."
Greed, pure a simple.0 -
6 days till ballot closes – 1000s still not received their papers – 28th Aug come and gone.
I am truly shocked that this element of the LL contest has not gone to plan….0 -
Mr. StClare, still time for them to arrive and be sent back.
But if they're delayed much longer, it could materially help Corbyn.0 -
Any passports issued in Germany to refugees after a certain date should be refused at British Border Posts..0
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Be careful. They had their asylum applications rejected by Canada and the UN. There will have been a good reason for that.DavidL said:
Richard, they weren't on holiday in Budrum,, they had no right to live or work there, they weren't welcome.richardDodd said:DL..In your desperation to escape the war torn hell hole of Budrum, a popular Turkish holiday resort,would you load your young family,without life preservers, into an obviously unseaworthy rubber dinghy and set sail at night into a recently storm lashed sea..I doubt it...and yet that is what happened..in most peoples book.. it was extremely stupid
I do think we should take in some refugees but we should be extremely selective..
Who knows what lies they were told by the criminals they had to deal with? Who knows what threats they faced when they were on that beach and men with guns want to leave pdq. Stories of brutality by these thugs are already legion.
Look, if i were in a desperately poor or very badly mismanaged country, I'd be trying to make my way to the West to forge a better life for my family too. That's the logical thing to do. Particularly since we in the West have gone to such lengths to maximise the pull factors, particularly with setting sail in the med. But there are hundreds of millions in this category, even more who want to join other friends and family, and we can't take them all in.
In my view, the right thing to do is stabilise these countries and focus on developing them to be prosperous and upstanding. Aid and refuge should be provided as close to the border as possible, asylum given to the most vulnerable, and we must be careful to distinguish between genuine refugees and economic migrants.
The ferrying of migrants in their thousands across the med must end.0 -
Twitter is an appalling medium for political argument.0
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Not directly related, but the @fcablog just closed because someone allegedly leaning on the employer.Slackbladder said:
Indeed. my boss and a lot of my collegues are friends on facebook. I would never risk looking 'right' but 'hard'.Casino_Royale said:
I wouldn't dream (although i want to) of venting my spleen on this on facebook or Twitter. It's quite clear that words like "evil", "fascist" and "nazi" would be hurled at me but, worse than that, it could risk my job if it were quotable and attributable to me.Sean_F said:
Lots of talking heads claim to speak for the public.Casino_Royale said:Sean_F said:Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
WRT this poll, it's worth noting 59% of Conservatives rejected Yvette Cooper's suggestion.
How many others are in a similar situation where they feel no option but to self-censor?
Much better to appear 'nice'. Maybe thats why Facebook/Twitter etc are such a echo chamber, because they relfect the need to 'fit in'.
An associate of Murphy seems to be the party.
http://www.fcablog.org.uk/2015/09/goodbye/
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"A day like today is not a day for soundbites, really. But I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. I really do."Pulpstar said:Robert Hardman outdoes himself
"Let us be clear that there is nothing remotely comparable to the Nazi era in the conduct or intentions of the Hungarian authorities."
The previous sentence: "The last time people were duped on to trains around here, they ended up in Auschwitz."
Is there a term for the fuckwittery of when a journalist asks for a comparison not to be made before doing it themselves in the previous or following sentence ? And with the Nazis too ! What a cretin.
Okay, so I think this was misinterpreted, but still quite funny.0 -
Yes, pretty much. Funny thing is "down the pub" I could have a sensible conversation on the same subject with almost all of my friends where they accepting the nuances of the issue and, dare I say it, even influence their point of view.Slackbladder said:
Indeed. my boss and a lot of my collegues are friends on facebook. I would never risk looking 'right' but 'hard'.Casino_Royale said:
I wouldn't dream (although i want to) of venting my spleen on this on facebook or Twitter. It's quite clear that words like "evil", "fascist" and "nazi" would be hurled at me but, worse than that, it could risk my job if it were quotable and attributable to me.Sean_F said:
Lots of talking heads claim to speak for the public.Casino_Royale said:Sean_F said:Casino_Royale said:
But none of that matters. The photo was perfectly framed and shot, and the subject content and scenic context near perfect for a dramatic image. It is extremely powerful for that. It led to a visceral gut reaction in millions of people. That will change government policy in several countries - including ours. It will probably go down in history as being as famous at that saigon execution photo taken during the Vietnam war.richardDodd said:A massive guiltfest in the media..I wonder when the father of the two children will realise that they died because of his gross stupidity....If a British father had set sail to cross over to France in a leaky rubber dinghy and the children had drowned then daddy would have been arrested and charged with willful negligence. They were escaping from a Turkish holiday resort where thousands of Brits are on holiday..Not a effin war zone.
Individually tragic though it was (and is) it just goes to show, to me at least, how tremendously illogical human beings are, and therefore our politics too.
WRT this poll, it's worth noting 59% of Conservatives rejected Yvette Cooper's suggestion.
How many others are in a similar situation where they feel no option but to self-censor?
Much better to appear 'nice'. Maybe thats why Facebook/Twitter etc are such a echo chamber, because they relfect the need to 'fit in'.0 -
When it comes to Syria, Russia is the one that has to be squared.Jonathan said:Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
Putin would probably want a free hand in Ukraine and the easing of sanctions in return.0 -
Which would emphasise the point Corbyn is likely to beat Cooper in the final round but perhaps not BurnhamSlackbladder said:
Depends on how the preferences fall. If Corybn backers switch to Burnham then they could still come back if Burham gets knocked out third.HYUFD said:There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham
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Mr. Royale, different media (and I include things like the telephone in this) have wildly different attributes. Consider the absence of body language/facial expression present with most electronic communication, or the need on the phone to constantly talk because the natural pause in a 'real' conversation feels far more awkward when verbal communication is the only thing you've got.
That's probably also why some people can come across very differently in real life to how they communicate online. It's not that they're being deceitful [well, some are, but most aren't], it's that the medium of communication alters the message.
Down the pub you could also say politically incorrect things without worrying about either a Twitter mob or the rozzers descending upon you.0 -
Yesantifrank said:
Thirded.SouthamObserver said:
Hear, hear.DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.0 -
But Burnham won't reach the final round as Kendall will be eliminated first and her preferences will go to Cooper.HYUFD said:
Which would emphasise the point Corbyn is likely to beat Cooper in the final round but perhaps not BurnhamSlackbladder said:
Depends on how the preferences fall. If Corybn backers switch to Burnham then they could still come back if Burham gets knocked out third.HYUFD said:There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham
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Fifthed, very well written.dugarbandier said:
Yesantifrank said:
Thirded.SouthamObserver said:
Hear, hear.DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.0 -
Migration is the biggest issue of the day, it is literally on our border and impacts millions.Alanbrooke said:
WTF has it got to do with us ?Jonathan said:Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
Russia - big ally yes. France ex-colonial power maybe.
We should stay well out of it.
So it is our business and if we want to play a part in global politics we should try to shape the response rather than the lead footed, passive approach we have had so far.
The alternative is the isolationist foreign policy you advocate. If so, it should have been discussed at the GE.
As it stands the Tories were elected on a ticket to "stand tall in the world" and "ensure Britain is a major player on the world stage". They should get on with it.
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Britain and France appear to disagree on the way forward (given the French have allegedly drafted a joint position with the Germans to present to the EU), the Russians are apparently unloading serious military hardware on Syria's coast so aren't exactly likely to come over all warm and fuzzy on this, China won't give a fig, and the USA will look exasperated at another European mess. Also I don't see the Arab league being likely to volunteer that a meaningful number be taken in by their richer members.Jonathan said:Britain and France should be drafting a UN security council resolution right now to lead an international response to the refugee crisis.
Time to put those much celebrated seats at the top-table to good use.
Really why bother, other than it gives the commentariat in the papers and TV another angle to fill their time with?0 -
Germany seizes its chance to help:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34148159
Hmm.
Not much thought given to how this provides an incentive for more potentially fatal journeys, or enriching people smugglers. Still, who cares about the impact of a deranged policy? Merkel is nice. Cameron is mean. That's what really counts...0 -
That is the real solution rather than hand wringing , pulling at heart strings , etc. If Europe had built proper camp infrastructure some time ago they could sift out real refugees from the mainly economic refugees. Plus taking them straight back as soon as they land in Europe would stop many trying and save lots more lives than current policy of encouragement.Pulpstar said:
And this is precisely why if you're going to help the refugees, you do it at source in the camps. As our Gov't is. I think they're getting the balance right.DavidL said:I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking
Merkel's actions are going to lead to more drownings of young men escaping a life of poverty in west Africa than any comments @RichardDodd or @Rodcrosby are making on Victor Orban/ the father of the boy who died off the coast of Bodrum.
Double the defences at Calais, and double the humanity at Suruc.
Excellent post Pulpstar
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Sorry if this isn't news but just read Britain to take more refugees from UN refugee camps bordering Syria not from those who've made it to Europe: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34148913
Very good decision by David Cameron to take that I hope almost everyone here would support. Legalised migration of genuine refugees rather than those who've paid people smugglers. Cut out the middle men and deal with the problem directly. The solution to this crisis isn't a free-for-all where the first to make it to Europe (a survival of the fittest) are allowed in, but to come up with a real solution at the point of origin.0 -
Nobody wants to talk about our bloated foreign aid budget. Most people on here accept money is scarce and cuts have to be and are being made. Redirecting some of the £12bn we spend a year should be a priority.
And yes, this is a dreadful humanitarian crisis, but the outpouring of faux grief from people on laptops in comfy houses is nauseous. No doubt multi millionaires like Geldof and Bono will be imploring poor people to "dig deep" before long. Lets see how socialist some socialists really are.0 -
F1: P1 has just begun. Apparently Mercedes (and, I think, Ferrari) have upgraded their engines.0
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Exactly we are in serious danger of having policy driven by today's potential TV shots. It is often thus I suppose, but this time people will die in big numbers unless heads rather than bleeding hearts think things through.Morris_Dancer said:Germany seizes its chance to help:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34148159
Hmm.
Not much thought given to how this provides an incentive for more potentially fatal journeys, or enriching people smugglers. Still, who cares about the impact of a deranged policy? Merkel is nice. Cameron is mean. That's what really counts...0 -
Well said!DavidL said:I find many of the comments about the migration crisis difficult, bordering on the offensive. Whilst I can understand a reluctance to accept moral blackmail they show a lack of compassion and humanity.
We now face a huge humanitarian crisis. I don't believe for a moment that this is all the West's fault but it is not obvious we have helped either. That crisis involves the movement of millions of people who have fled in fear of their lives from psychopathic killers and lunatics.
They face an existence in camps in Turkey, Jordan, the Lebanon and elsewhere for years, possibly decades. It would be an existence with no jobs, little education, very poor accommodation entirely dependent on the world's somewhat fitful concentration span for the food that they eat.
If I and my family were in such a camp I would take any option to give them a better chance. This would undoubtedly involve dealing with cruel and heartless criminals because the Authorities give no options. It would involve taking risks because the alternative is so horrendous, risks I would not normally contemplate for a second. To call those who take these risks "stupid" or "greedy" is frankly shameful.
There are no easy answers. We cannot have the populations of the world's many trouble spots come here en masse. I can see the argument that helping simply aggravates the problem because it makes the option of my hypothetical man in the refugee camp more attractive, the risk more worth taking. But when struggling with this we really should not let irritation or a sense of being bullied deprive us of humanity and compassion. These are human beings and we must not forget it.
All this talk of returning refugees to their point of origin wilfully ignores the huge, huge numbers involved. Turkey has 1.8 Million refugees. How the fuck can you sit there and say that all the people gambling their lives to escape first a war zone, and then sprawling disease ridden camps are stupid/greedy economic migrants who should be sent straight back. 1.8 million people flooding a single country, and you expect to just sit and ignore the whole problem as not our responsibility.
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It must be terribly difficult for people with deeply unpleasant opinions not to feel comfortable sharing them in public. My heart bleeds. Truly the last persecuted minority, rich white male bigots.0
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Ha.
All weather catastrophes to be deemed due to carbon. There's a deal afoot which would mean rich countries throw money at poor ones, if the latter suffer weather woe which they decide is due to carbon emissions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-341471920 -
Depends how you define deeply unpleasant opinions. To the typical twitterati, just voting Tory counts as one of them.JWisemann said:It must be terribly difficult for people with deeply unpleasant opinions not to feel comfortable sharing them in public. My heart bleeds. Truly the last persecuted minority, rich white male bigots.
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A point relevant to Viktor Orban's eyebrow-raising comments about Muslims yesterday: Hungary was under Islamic rule for 150 years. The city of Eger has the most northern Turkish minaret in Europe, I understand. Budapest has the most northern Islamic shrine.0
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Yougov has had Burnham just ahead of Cooper still after redistribution of Kendall's preferencesPhilip_Thompson said:
But Burnham won't reach the final round as Kendall will be eliminated first and her preferences will go to Cooper.HYUFD said:
Which would emphasise the point Corbyn is likely to beat Cooper in the final round but perhaps not BurnhamSlackbladder said:
Depends on how the preferences fall. If Corybn backers switch to Burnham then they could still come back if Burham gets knocked out third.HYUFD said:There were reports on Twitter earlier this week of some Corbyn backers switching to Burnham at the last minute. Corbyn remains favourite but could be pipped on preferences by Cooper or Burnham, more likely Burnham as yougov had Corbyn with a bigger lead over Cooper on preferences than Burnham
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Are you talking about Jezbollah?JWisemann said:It must be terribly difficult for people with deeply unpleasant opinions not to feel comfortable sharing them in public. My heart bleeds. Truly the last persecuted minority, rich white male bigots.
Because heart shouldn't bleed for him0 -
You seem to manage.JWisemann said:It must be terribly difficult for people with deeply unpleasant opinions not to feel comfortable sharing them in public. My heart bleeds. Truly the last persecuted minority, rich white male bigots.
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I've been saying this for a while now.Philip_Thompson said:Sorry if this isn't news but just read Britain to take more refugees from UN refugee camps bordering Syria not from those who've made it to Europe: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34148913
Very good decision by David Cameron to take that I hope almost everyone here would support. Legalised migration of genuine refugees rather than those who've paid people smugglers. Cut out the middle men and deal with the problem directly. The solution to this crisis isn't a free-for-all where the first to make it to Europe (a survival of the fittest) are allowed in, but to come up with a real solution at the point of origin.
We need a real multilateral solution at source.
The boy died not because his father was stupid/greedy, but because the UN's response to the growing humanitarian crisis since 2011 has been pitiful.
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I might do a thread on this
George Osborne as Tory leader would pose the biggest threat to Labour, say LabourList readers
http://bit.ly/1UqZqtR
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