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There were. But that is to give me too much credit. She was up against Maajid Nawaz, someone who knows a thing or two about Islamist extremism and free speech. She is - like far too many MPs - second rate, with scarcely a thought in her head that hasn't been put there by others. Nawaz won the debate hands down, much good did it do him, sadly.kle4 said:
Were there questions from the audience? I doubt she'd have been expecting the sort of questioning you might be able to throw her way.Cyclefree said:
I see that my own MP Tulip Nitwit is on the list....... Hardly surprising: when she attended a pre-election debate at my son's school, she was by far the weakest of the three main candidates, being particularly feeble on the question of freedom of speech.geoffw said:
Here's the list:Plato said:
ydoethur said:
Or better yet, used the nominations process correctly rather than indulging in some kind of 'mass debate', which looks more like a homophone for the phrase with every passing day.Indigo said:
If Labour didn't want this idiotic performance over the last few months, and the potentially absurd outcome, they shouldn't have put in place this damn stupid system.
Diane Abbott, Rushanara Ali, Margaret Beckett, Richard Burgon, Dawn Butler, Ronnie Campbell, Sarah Champion, Jeremy Corbyn, Jo Cox, Neil Coyle, Jon Cruddas, Clive Efford, Frank Field, Louise Haigh, Kelvin Hopkins, Rupa Huq, Imran Hussain, Huw Irranca-Davies, Sadiq Khan, David Lammy, Clive Lewis, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Gordon Marsden, John McDonnell, Michael Meacher, Grahame Morris, Chi Onwurah, Kate Osamor, Tulip Siddiq, Dennis Skinner, Cat Smith, Andrew Smith, Gareth Thomas, Emily Thornberry, Jon Trickett, Catherine West.
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Yes fair enough I agree... Corbyn is exactly like the humanities lecturers at Brighton Uni, the people that turned me from lefty to kipperkle4 said:
And as pointed out he could have done that without saying the word tragedy, thus opening himself up to such attacks (which he would not be vulnerable too without other comments and stories giving it some kind of credence) of sympathizing and so on. He would definitely criticise an opponent for inelegant phrasing - and his supporters definitely would, how many times do we see people on all sides of politics say 'X said Y, claiming they meant Z, but it was the mask slipping/reflective of their true position? - so he cannot expect otherwise himself.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden
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Mr. Quidder, no guarantee the species will last that long. Having sustainable colonisation of other worlds is a rather long term project.0
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perhaps in his mind he does choose good over evil.Cyclefree said:
I don't want someone who makes a careful choice of words. I want someone who understands that Bin Laden was evil and that his death was not a tragedy. It is the sentiments which are wrong not the words.SirNorfolkPassmore said:Corbyn's problem here is not describing extra-judicial execution as wrong, but describing the death of a mass murderer as a "tragedy" - the same term one would apply to, well, something like the deaths of 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001.
Part of Corbyn's appeal to certain people is that he doesn't talk like somebody who has been tutored in the extremely careful choice of words... but careful choice of words does have its advantages!
Incidentally, I think his choice to go on Press TV was also unwise. This is a Iranian Government propaganda channel that was ultimately taken off air (jumped before being pushed) after a range of problems culminating in broadcasting an interview with a prisoner given under duress. Useful idiots like Corbyn shouldn't get involved in lending legitimacy to the highly dubious mouthpiece of a repressive regime.
Corbyn gives the impression that he does not understand the difference between good and evil and that, if he did, he would choose evil.
Frightening thought of the day.0 -
http://www.rt.com/news/313880-ukraine-radicals-protest-parliament/
Latest news is that crowds of protesters attempting to storm the Ukraine parliament building.0 -
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.
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He appears to have many interesting and pertinent things to say and such issues, the 2015 election was very much the wrong time for him to have any sort of chance.Cyclefree said:
There were. But that is to give me too much credit. She was up against Maajid Nawaz, someone who knows a thing or two about Islamist extremism and free speech. She is - like far too many MPs - second rate, with scarcely a thought in her head that hasn't been put there by others. Nawaz won the debate hands down, much good did it do him, sadly.kle4 said:
Were there questions from the audience? I doubt she'd have been expecting the sort of questioning you might be able to throw her way.Cyclefree said:
I see that my own MP Tulip Nitwit is on the list....... Hardly surprising: when she attended a pre-election debate at my son's school, she was by far the weakest of the three main candidates, being particularly feeble on the question of freedom of speech.geoffw said:
Here's the list:Plato said:ydoethur said:
Or better yet, used the nominations process correctly rather than indulging in some kind of 'mass debate', which looks more like a homophone for the phrase with every passing day.Indigo said:
If Labour didn't want this idiotic performance over the last few months, and the potentially absurd outcome, they shouldn't have put in place this damn stupid system.
Diane Abbott, Rushanara Ali, Margaret Beckett, Richard Burgon, Dawn Butler, Ronnie Campbell, Sarah Champion, Jeremy Corbyn, Jo Cox, Neil Coyle, Jon Cruddas, Clive Efford, Frank Field, Louise Haigh, Kelvin Hopkins, Rupa Huq, Imran Hussain, Huw Irranca-Davies, Sadiq Khan, David Lammy, Clive Lewis, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Gordon Marsden, John McDonnell, Michael Meacher, Grahame Morris, Chi Onwurah, Kate Osamor, Tulip Siddiq, Dennis Skinner, Cat Smith, Andrew Smith, Gareth Thomas, Emily Thornberry, Jon Trickett, Catherine West.0 -
Its all that space thats a bit of a bugger; and time, of course. Perhaps we could temporise by building a B-Ark whilst we sort out the engineerring needed.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Quidder, no guarantee the species will last that long. Having sustainable colonisation of other worlds is a rather long term project.
Any, Mr. D., came accross this site that you might find ineteresting:
http://www.historyoftheancientworld.com/
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I would not be entirely surprised if that were the case.Floater said:
perhaps in his mind he does choose good over evil.Cyclefree said:
I don't want someone who makes a careful choice of words. I want someone who understands that Bin Laden was evil and that his death was not a tragedy. It is the sentiments which are wrong not the words.SirNorfolkPassmore said:Corbyn's problem here is not describing extra-judicial execution as wrong, but describing the death of a mass murderer as a "tragedy" - the same term one would apply to, well, something like the deaths of 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001.
Part of Corbyn's appeal to certain people is that he doesn't talk like somebody who has been tutored in the extremely careful choice of words... but careful choice of words does have its advantages!
Incidentally, I think his choice to go on Press TV was also unwise. This is a Iranian Government propaganda channel that was ultimately taken off air (jumped before being pushed) after a range of problems culminating in broadcasting an interview with a prisoner given under duress. Useful idiots like Corbyn shouldn't get involved in lending legitimacy to the highly dubious mouthpiece of a repressive regime.
Corbyn gives the impression that he does not understand the difference between good and evil and that, if he did, he would choose evil.
Frightening thought of the day.
There were - in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and, indeed, this happens after very tragedy - big or large - plenty of people willing to blame the victims for what was done to them.
In an ideal world, evil people who commit mass murder should be brought to trial. But we are not in an ideal world and the reason the world is not ideal at the moment is due in no small part to the activities of people like Bin Laden and others of his ilk. Bin Laden got what he deserved. Indeed, his death was rather more merciful than the one suffered by all those people in the Twin Towers and on those 4 planes. It might be - at best - regrettable that he was not put on trial. But in no sensible person's mind was it a "tragedy" let alone a tragedy comparable to what happened to the victims that day.
Corbyn will rightly be excoriated for what he has said in this regard. As will the Labour party, if they are foolish enough to elect him. Too bad.
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It's making me, someone who has voted LD in 2005, 2010 and 2015, thought Ed M would win and be ok, and has said I don't think Corbyn can possibly be as much of a disaster as some Tories hope/Labour supporters fear, think his problems are too much to get past - he has a closed mind, and an instinctive viewpoint of extreme condemnation/support, which is probably what leads to him giving the impression of greater support to terrible things than he perhaps means.OldKingCole said:All this hysterical posting from Tories and Kippers is making me, as a sort-of LD, look at Corbyn more favourably.
To misquote the Bard "The gentlemen do protest too much, methinks!"
But no, let's assume it's just Tory/UKIPer hysteria.0 -
Mr. Llama, don't have much time now, but given it a quick perusal. Seems to be focused on currently written articles.
I was amused by the headline[roughly] 'fall of the Roman Empire explained by biology'.
Indeed. When barbarians kept on killing Romans
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Cyclefre, hello, unfortunately this year in general has been dire, worst summer for many a year.Cyclefree said:
One of the hottest and best summers I ever had in this country was in Pitlochry: swimming, walking, just being out in the open. It was simply glorious. It was the year I passed my Bar exams and my boyfriend's father, a Scottish judge (apologies - am not meaning to sound boastful) rang me to tell my results.... He was a lovely man.malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
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It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.0 -
We can agree on something! We didn't even have the early July heatwave down here in Devon; struggled to break through 20C...malcolmg said:
Cyclefre, hello, unfortunately this year in general has been dire, worst summer for many a year.Cyclefree said:
One of the hottest and best summers I ever had in this country was in Pitlochry: swimming, walking, just being out in the open. It was simply glorious. It was the year I passed my Bar exams and my boyfriend's father, a Scottish judge (apologies - am not meaning to sound boastful) rang me to tell my results.... He was a lovely man.malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
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In the end, I thought it would be dishonest to sign up to vote for Corbyn. And possibly a breach of the Representation of the People Act, which is not a good position for a solicitor to be in.SouthamObserver said:
Is it in the Tories' interests that the rest of the world registers that an anti-Western, anti-capitalist class warrior is the leader of the opposition in the UK and draw wider conclusions about us as a result? Corbyn's election will be welcomed by entities across the globe who wish the UK ill. All those who voted for him, for whatever reason, share responsibility for that.Indigo said:
Oh codswallop, the only people who behaved idiotically was the PLP that put him on the ballot, in contravention of the whole point of the way their system was designed, relying on the MPs to keep out nutters and anyone they couldn't work with. Once the nutters get on the ballot you and they can hardly blame people for acting in their own interests, for the Tories to try and saddle Labour with an unelectable leader, and the far left for trying to get their man into power.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps a little list of those types could be compiled so any hypocritical prating from them on the disastrous, malign influence that Corbyn will have on British politics can be instantly dismissed.Yorkcity said:The Conservatives who voted for him on here for partisan reasons should bow their head in shame.
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Used to see the subs going up and down regularly and many moons ago I used to go over to Holy Loch to fix the computers in US base and on visiting ships , the dry dock was certainly impressive.JosiasJessop said:
I've walked past Coukport, and the road leading to it is very high quality for the area and, so I've been told, was not on maps for years after it was built. The security - and only the bits I could see from the road - were also quite impressive. Very James Bond. I daresay there were layers of security hidden out of sight as well.flightpath01 said:(snip)Coulport possesses a huge floating dock where warheads are placed inside the missiles, 3km from the small village of Garelochhead on one side and the small village of Ardentinny on the other, Westminster's Scottish Affairs Committee heard in 2012. Any new warhead storage facility would need similar distances from population centres for loading and offloading warheads from missiles.''
(snip)
I love walking along the side of a remote west-coast loch, only to come across a large RN ship replenishing from a heavily-disguised POL (Petrol, Oil, Lubricants) depot.
I've never seen a submarine in the lochs though, and I'd love to have seen the floating dry dock the Yanks had at Holy Loch.0 -
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.0 -
On the contrary to paraphrase Dr Strangelove --- ''Of course the whole point of aOldKingCole said:All this hysterical posting from Tories and Kippers is making me, as a sort-of LD, look at Corbyn more favourably.
To misquote the Bard "The gentlemen do protest too much, methinks!"DoomesdayCorbynite Machine is lost if you keep it a secret. Why shouldn't we tell the world, EH?.''0 -
You in Yorkshire today?malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
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That's what the Guardian commentariat think!kle4 said:
It's making me, someone who has voted LD in 2005, 2010 and 2015, thought Ed M would win and be ok, and has said I don't think Corbyn can possibly be as much of a disaster as some Tories hope/Labour supporters fear, think his problems are too much to get past - he has a closed mind, and an instinctive viewpoint of extreme condemnation/support, which is probably what leads to him giving the impression of greater support to terrible things than he perhaps means.OldKingCole said:All this hysterical posting from Tories and Kippers is making me, as a sort-of LD, look at Corbyn more favourably.
To misquote the Bard "The gentlemen do protest too much, methinks!"
But no, let's assume it's just Tory/UKIPer hysteria.0 -
I have sailed out of Faslane on a Trident submarine..on a few weeks shakedown trip..Fascinating... thank heaven these people are prepared to do that on our behalf..0
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Out of town shopping centre?malcolmg said:
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.0 -
Latest Austrian opinion poll:
Soc Dem 26%
People's Party 26%
Freedom Party 26%
Greens 13%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Austrian_legislative_election0 -
Granted, but if the species is ever seriously under threat a way will be found.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Quidder, no guarantee the species will last that long. Having sustainable colonisation of other worlds is a rather long term project.
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Isn't that rather insulting to bicycles, hatters and boxes of frogs?Morris_Dancer said:King Cole, either that, or Corbyn's mad as a bicycle.
Would you suggest a fireman shouting at people to leave a burning building was 'protesting too much'?
What did you make of his Falklands comments?
My bicycle is eminently sane, as is JC's:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13034326
... Even if it does make his position sit up and beg like a Yorkshire Terrier demanding black pudding.
He needs an Opafiets :-)0 -
Sean, I actually agree with you that it would be wrong as a Conservative to sign up to the Labour Leadership, but surely it doesn't breach the Representation of the People Act? Isn't it an internal matter for the Labour Party?Sean_F said:
In the end, I thought it would be dishonest to sign up to vote for Corbyn. And possibly a breach of the Representation of the People Act, which is not a good position for a solicitor to be in.SouthamObserver said:
Is it in the Tories' interests that the rest of the world registers that an anti-Western, anti-capitalist class warrior is the leader of the opposition in the UK and draw wider conclusions about us as a result? Corbyn's election will be welcomed by entities across the globe who wish the UK ill. All those who voted for him, for whatever reason, share responsibility for that.Indigo said:
Oh codswallop, the only people who behaved idiotically was the PLP that put him on the ballot, in contravention of the whole point of the way their system was designed, relying on the MPs to keep out nutters and anyone they couldn't work with. Once the nutters get on the ballot you and they can hardly blame people for acting in their own interests, for the Tories to try and saddle Labour with an unelectable leader, and the far left for trying to get their man into power.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps a little list of those types could be compiled so any hypocritical prating from them on the disastrous, malign influence that Corbyn will have on British politics can be instantly dismissed.Yorkcity said:The Conservatives who voted for him on here for partisan reasons should bow their head in shame.
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I agree with you, I think Corbyn is a bit of a prick... maybe to slightly misinterpret his words for the greater good is the best thing to do, but at least we can admit that we are misinterpreting themMarqueeMark said:
It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.0 -
It is absolutely stupid for anyone to believe that a dangerous terrorist that is not in custody, should have to be put on trial. If our armed forces are in a combat situation and the chance presents itself to take out a danger to the West, they need to be taken out. Especially if our troops are in a dangerous fortified compound. This 'he should have to go on trial' nonsense is just a stick to beat the US with.0
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The workers at Faslane would be the first from an independent Scotland to emigrate to England. Although its possible most jobs would be exported to America.MarqueeMark said:
Out of town shopping centre?malcolmg said:
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.
I think however to go back to the original point which started this - I have not seen any evidence that it was a done deal that Trident 2 would be based anywhere other than Faslane.0 -
So the UK government is making good on a promise made before the referendum 'vote no and you'll get all the UK's submarines'.....and the SNP are complaining?
Why am I not surprised?0 -
Rather interestingly, most of the comments about Corbyn say that he has a "closed mind". Reading what he actually says more than suggests he thinks about a subject, considers the answers and even though it might be contraian to the accepted dogma, is then prepared to debate them.
That the media is prepared to disect anything Corbyn says, picking out individual words to use against him is beginning to look like total desperation.
Fortunately, not all of us are Daily Mail readers.0 -
Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html0 -
Where did Ashdown say it was a 'tragedy'?RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html0 -
In effect we need to reinvent the concept of the outlaw. Someone declared outside the protection of the law, who can be hunted with impunity, with a reward offered Dead or Alive. Wild west justice, but with a base in Anglo-Saxon law.MarqueeMark said:
It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.
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The original point which started the discussion on Trident was your own imagination/misreading of other people's posts. Mssrs Jessop, Thoughts and myself were talking about the basing of the Trafalgar class boats not the trident boats. The first person to mention Trident was you.flightpath01 said:
The workers at Faslane would be the first from an independent Scotland to emigrate to England. Although its possible most jobs would be exported to America.MarqueeMark said:
Out of town shopping centre?malcolmg said:
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.
I think however to go back to the original point which started this - I have not seen any evidence that it was a done deal that Trident 2 would be based anywhere other than Faslane.0 -
Och Eye I don't suppose many who watched that Iranian TV show were Daily Mail readers either0
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Wouldn't it have helped OchEye, if JC had ever unequivocally condemmed the actions of various terrorist groups in the UK / Ireland and the Middle East without always seeking moral equivalence with the actions of the UK / USA / Israel? It is not individual words, but years of acting as an apologist for terrorism.OchEye said:Rather interestingly, most of the comments about Corbyn say that he has a "closed mind". Reading what he actually says more than suggests he thinks about a subject, considers the answers and even though it might be contraian to the accepted dogma, is then prepared to debate them.
That the media is prepared to disect anything Corbyn says, picking out individual words to use against him is beginning to look like total desperation.
Fortunately, not all of us are Daily Mail readers.0 -
Just because he isn't the only reprehensible toerag does not excuse him.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html0 -
Nuclear souvenir shops would go down a treatMarqueeMark said:
Out of town shopping centre?malcolmg said:
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.
0 -
Agree with all of that, apart from the No.madasafish said:MattW said:
On this piece I think that's something of the Guido method involved.volcanopete said:Hard to make sense of the Tory press logic here.Their story goes Corbyn is unelectable,which must be a good thing from the Murdoch/Dacre/Barclay Bros point of view,so why spend every day trashing him?
The Sun goes the same way as Blair,Mandelson and the rest of the gang maybe out of old times sake and godparently love but everyone is cocking a deaf un.
It is Harry Cole after all.
The emergence of the video might have forced the splash before someone else did it.
No. It's simple. Establish a story now which then becomes fixed in voters' minds. See "Labour are economically incompetent " - established in the six months after the 2010 GE when Labour were choosing a Leader..
If no-one defends it publicly, it becomes a fact of life.
So establishing that" Jeremy Corbyn is anti British" is the new theme. And the Sun has a LOT of Mr Corbyn's quotes to choose from...
Within six months of being elected Labour Leader (if indeed he is), it is likely that 60% of the electorate will actively dislike or hate Mr Corbyn - and by extension the Party he leads will suffer in polling.0 -
You think all 520 of them would emigrate to England then , are the cooking and cleaning jobs down there much better then.flightpath01 said:
The workers at Faslane would be the first from an independent Scotland to emigrate to England. Although its possible most jobs would be exported to America.MarqueeMark said:
Out of town shopping centre?malcolmg said:
absolute rubbish, it would not have to close at all, would just be different people based there and different jobs.flightpath01 said:
What will be the vital piece left over after he has finished building it? Kendall Cooper or Burnham? (Lets face it Corbyn does not have to build a flat pack cabinet for us to know he has a screw loose/missing.MikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.
The base is a RN base and it will have to close if Scotland goes Independent and all the subs rebased. Everything can be moved- the difficulty is Trident and its warheads.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.
So all the jobs will go if the RN base closes.
I think however to go back to the original point which started this - I have not seen any evidence that it was a done deal that Trident 2 would be based anywhere other than Faslane.
0 -
toucheFloater said:
You in Yorkshire today?malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
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A massive proportion of the Nuclear Submarines crew were from Scotland... they had volunteered because the vessels were stationed in Scotland..near home..0
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If you think a) the House of Lords is undemocratic, and b) that is bad, then I have difficulty understanding why you think Liberal proposals to make it an elected body were themselves undemocratic. However, given that you do think that, then you can relax: the Conservatives now have a overall majority and will no doubt be introducing a bill to democratise the Lords in due course.Indigo said:The Statist Democrats might be more appropriate, or possibly given their [the Liberals] preposterous proposals for HoL reforms, the just The Statists might be best
I find myself in a cleft stick here: I agree with you that the Liberal refusal to offer a EU referendum was bad, and I agree that they should offered one as specified in their manifesto. However if you were referring to the European Union Act 2011, when you said "their bill to trigger future referendums on a future transfer of powers is a circumventable piece of deception", then I must disagree with you: it was not a Liberal-only bill, it is not circumventable, and the intent was not to decieve. It is very narrowly defined, but that's not the same thing.Pauly said:I wouldn't even call them Democrats. Their refusal to give us an EU referendum in the last parliament and the fact they know full well their bill to trigger future referendums on a future transfer of powers is a circumventable piece of deception.
0 -
My point is that potentially, Corbyn is dangerous to the Tories because he shines a very bright light on them. And will voters like what they see.SeanT said:
Once Corbyn is elected and proves to be a squalid disaster, Tories will need to show that they did their best for the country, when it was still possible to stop Jihadi Jez. Ergo they need to oppose him NOW, not stay entirely silent and gloaty as Labour shoots its own legs off.antifrank said:1) presumably the Conservatives are now sure that Jeremy Corbyn has won.
2) we're seeing the Icke-ification of Jeremy Corbyn.
Look at Southam below, he'd love to be able to blame Tories for this malign development. Tories must ensure Labour owns this horrible error. And they will.
After goodness knows how many years at Westminster, do you honestly think that Corbyn gives a toss for the Tory Front bench or what his "brothers" actually think of him?0 -
It's an idea, but that was already in place effectively with a US$25 million bounty on his head. Even that didn't encourage bounty hunters in Pakistan to deliver him up.foxinsoxuk said:
In effect we need to reinvent the concept of the outlaw. Someone declared outside the protection of the law, who can be hunted with impunity, with a reward offered Dead or Alive. Wild west justice, but with a base in Anglo-Saxon law.MarqueeMark said:
It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.0 -
I think most people would prefer to have seen Bin Laden arrested and put on trial rather than murdered in cold blood - indeed many of us wish to see that happen to Blair and Bush. Those who see nothing wrong with his killing expose their own humbug and hypocrisy whilst also revealing their adherence to the rule of law to be skin deep.0
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No, people leave Faslane every day. There are roads and everything...richardDodd said:I have sailed out of Faslane on a Trident submarine..on a few weeks shakedown trip..Fascinating... thank heaven these people are prepared to do that on our behalf..
(I know that's not what you meant, but I couldn't resist it)
0 -
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/16208738260 -
No, and that's the point that will cut through any amount of whataboutery. The world is better off without him.MarqueeMark said:
It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.
In any case, the likes of Corbyn would no doubt argue that he couldn't get a fair trial in the US (which in truth would indeed have been difficult).0 -
Viwcode Thank you for that... some people also sail out of there on small boats and yachts..as well as walk and use public transport along the roads..I just happened to be on a huge Fuck You submarine..but all info is useful ..0
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If the Seymore Hersh reporting is right somebody (in Pakistani intelligence) claiming the bounty by telling them where is was is exactly what happened.MarqueeMark said:
It's an idea, but that was already in place effectively with a US$25 million bounty on his head. Even that didn't encourage bounty hunters in Pakistan to deliver him up.foxinsoxuk said:
In effect we need to reinvent the concept of the outlaw. Someone declared outside the protection of the law, who can be hunted with impunity, with a reward offered Dead or Alive. Wild west justice, but with a base in Anglo-Saxon law.MarqueeMark said:
It is hard to see how 1) a lengthy legal extraction from Pakistan and then 2) a lengthy trial in the US could have come to any conclusion other than Bin Laden was guilty of at least complicity in the deaths of nearly 3,000 US and other nationals on 9/11. Especially since Bin Laden had issued multiple videos claiming credit. So short of a successful plea of insanity, a lengthy proceeding was only going to come to one conclusion - that he was going to be executed by the US legal system. SEAL Team 6 did nothing more than concertina many years of legal process into one night's work.isam said:Not a fan of corbyn but seems to me he was saying the act of assassinating an enemy without trial was a tragedy rather than the passing of bin laden... That said he probably is far too sympathetic to people like that to be leader of the opposition
I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.0 -
Indeed, and then got 8 seats at the GE, clearly the public agreed.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
Precisely.MarqueeMark said:I wouldn't call that tragedy. I doubt more than 2% of the UK population would call that a tragedy.
0 -
ST "What are their thoughts on the moon landings"...and Yogi Bear....0
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He would be unlikely to be endorsing Bin Laden on Press TV; Iran is a Shia country at daggers drawn with Sunni Al Qaeda. Corbyn was clearly saying it was a tragedy that due process had not taken place. A subtlety that was no doubt lost on readers of The Sun, but should not have been lost on readers of PB.
A comparison may also be drawn with Tony Blair, who we now know made a last ditch attempt to broker a deal for Gadaffi to be kept alive. I don't really want to get into the rights and wrongs of Gadaffi being butchered by a mob, but here we have an example of a former Labour leader (and PM) not just thinking it was a tragedy that a wicked alleged mass killer was killed, but actively intervening to prevent it. This stuff goes on all the time. Corbyn just gets mixed up with the wrong bad guys not the approved bad guys.0 -
Two points there.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
Firstly, Ashdown, as a former Special Forces soldier has a bit of credit on which to draw in making such statements; Corbyn, as a long-term associate of groups with aims antipathetical to those of a liberal democracy, does not.
Secondly, Ashdown said the decision was 'wrong', not a 'tragedy'. Now, you can argue that Corbyn's use of that word was a description of the Allies' action, not Bin Laden's death. That's beside the point: the impression is half way round the world before the explanation has its shoes on.0 -
I wasn't there, but the facts a stated are that OBL was armed and a threat to the troops in the compound. He would have been shot dead in those circumstances regardless of who he was or what he had done by any law enforcement organisation. He made the decision to resist with deadly force and came up against people who were better at it than he wasjustin124 said:I think most people would prefer to have seen Bin Laden arrested and put on trial rather than murdered in cold blood - indeed many of us wish to see that happen to Blair and Bush. Those who see nothing wrong with his killing expose their own humbug and hypocrisy whilst also revealing their adherence to the rule of law to be skin deep.
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Because the proposal was entirely unserious and designed to be completely unacceptable to anyone with a brain, the obvious intention was that the Tories would shoot it down thereby giving Clegg the excuse he wanted to ditch his commitment to the boundary review.viewcode said:
If you think a) the House of Lords is undemocratic, and b) that is bad, then I have difficulty understanding why you think Liberal proposals to make it an elected body were themselves undemocratic. However, given that you do think that, then you can relax: the Conservatives now have a overall majority and will no doubt be introducing a bill to democratise the Lords in due course.Indigo said:The Statist Democrats might be more appropriate, or possibly given their [the Liberals] preposterous proposals for HoL reforms, the just The Statists might be best
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The only thing that is a bit weird is that all members of SEAL Team 6 who attacked the compound were killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.SeanT said:
I'm finding it hard to unearth any significant political figures who believe that the assassination of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged (like the Holocaust?) - which is what Corbyn says in that interview. Watch it.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
This is going unnoticed in Tragedygate. Corbyn is 100% batcrap crazy. He will adopt any position which might make America look bad, even if that position is lunatic; he will also adopt several contrary opinions on the same subject, just as long as all of them are anti-American - which, again, he does in that interview:
He goes from saying the assassination was faked and phoney, to saying Bin Laden has been dead a year, to saying the death was "medieval triumphalism", to demanding America exhibit the body, to saying the assassination was a "tragedy" just like 9/11, all in one remark.
In short, he's a fucking nutter.
All 22 members.
So no source left to go to ask what REALLY happened. Convenient.0 -
MM One of them has written a book about it ...weird..The actual attack and killing was well documented on vid0
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And he urged other believers to kill innocents, including a few thousand people in New York and a few hudnred in Nairobi, along with many others in smaller attacks.edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
Too many idiots like Corbyn forget the real victims, in theit sick attempts to make the perpetrators 'victims'.0 -
Its massively circumventable, since its excludes powers transferred as part of an accession treaty (which is a hell of a big percentage) and powers transferred by non-parliamentary means, such as by orders made in council under the various pieces of delegated legislation, such as the European Arrest Warrant.viewcode said:I find myself in a cleft stick here: I agree with you that the Liberal refusal to offer a EU referendum was bad, and I agree that they should offered one as specified in their manifesto. However if you were referring to the European Union Act 2011, when you said "their bill to trigger future referendums on a future transfer of powers is a circumventable piece of deception", then I must disagree with you: it was not a Liberal-only bill, it is not circumventable, and the intent was not to decieve. It is very narrowly defined, but that's not the same thing.
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It sounds a bit unlikely - you'd think there would have been more reporting by now with a bit more supporting detail, if only in the - ahem - marginal press.SeanT said:
Do you agree with Corbyn that the death of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged? A phoney stunt, when Bin Laden had already been dead a year?edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
Even if you don't agree, perhaps you could talk us through Jeremy's thought processes, and why he might have reached that unexpected conclusion?
Thanks.
I can't speak for Jeremy Corbyn's thought process but the bit where they throw the evidence in the sea before anybody can verify that it's him is a bit weird.0 -
look more closely and you would realise it is not just tories and Ukippers who have problems with Corbyn.OldKingCole said:All this hysterical posting from Tories and Kippers is making me, as a sort-of LD, look at Corbyn more favourably.
To misquote the Bard "The gentlemen do protest too much, methinks!"
If you think he is suitable I am afraid it says more about you than the tories etal.0 -
I'm not sure about faked or staged, but certainly kept until a certain point, and used as a deliberate propaganda coup. The fact that they scoured the earth up to that point and aparently failed to find him was ridiculous. He was keeping for such time as he was more useful dead than alive.SeanT said:Can the dwindling number of Corbynites on pb tell us whether they agree with the Dear Leader Manque that the assassination of Bin Laden was very possibly faked, and staged? and that Bin Laden had been dead a year, already?
And, if they do agree, what are their thoughts on the moon landings?
I have no opinion either way on the moon landings.
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Corbyn's problem is that he thinks we're the bad guys. And it's ridiculous to think due process can be followed with someone that is dangerous, at large, and in another country.Luckyguy1983 said:He would be unlikely to be endorsing Bin Laden on Press TV; Iran is a Shia country at daggers drawn with Sunni Al Qaeda. Corbyn was clearly saying it was a tragedy that due process had not taken place. A subtlety that was no doubt lost on readers of The Sun, but should not have been lost on readers of PB.
A comparison may also be drawn with Tony Blair, who we now know made a last ditch attempt to broker a deal for Gadaffi to be kept alive. I don't really want to get into the rights and wrongs of Gadaffi being butchered by a mob, but here we have an example of a former Labour leader (and PM) not just thinking it was a tragedy that a wicked alleged mass killer was killed, but actively intervening to prevent it. This stuff goes on all the time. Corbyn just gets mixed up with the wrong bad guys not the approved bad guys.0 -
Are you sure, puts a new slant on ghost written books.MarqueeMark said:
The only thing that is a bit weird is that all members of SEAL Team 6 who attacked the compound were killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.SeanT said:
I'm finding it hard to unearth any significant political figures who believe that the assassination of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged (like the Holocaust?) - which is what Corbyn says in that interview. Watch it.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
This is going unnoticed in Tragedygate. Corbyn is 100% batcrap crazy. He will adopt any position which might make America look bad, even if that position is lunatic; he will also adopt several contrary opinions on the same subject, just as long as all of them are anti-American - which, again, he does in that interview:
He goes from saying the assassination was faked and phoney, to saying Bin Laden has been dead a year, to saying the death was "medieval triumphalism", to demanding America exhibit the body, to saying the assassination was a "tragedy" just like 9/11, all in one remark.
In short, he's a fucking nutter.
All 22 members.
So no source left to go to ask what REALLY happened. Convenient.0 -
Not saying that. But there are questions. The black box was never found. The Afghan troops who boarded were not the ones on the manifest.SeanT said:
So you're in agreement with the "birthers". Gosh.MarqueeMark said:
The only thing that is a bit weird is that all members of SEAL Team 6 who attacked the compound were killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.SeanT said:
I'm finding it hard to unearth any significant political figures who believe that the assassination of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged (like the Holocaust?) - which is what Corbyn says in that interview. Watch it.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
This is going unnoticed in Tragedygate. Corbyn is 100% batcrap crazy. He will adopt any position which might make America look bad, even if that position is lunatic; he will also adopt several contrary opinions on the same subject, just as long as all of them are anti-American - which, again, he does in that interview:
He goes from saying the assassination was faked and phoney, to saying Bin Laden has been dead a year, to saying the death was "medieval triumphalism", to demanding America exhibit the body, to saying the assassination was a "tragedy" just like 9/11, all in one remark.
In short, he's a fucking nutter.
All 22 members.
So no source left to go to ask what REALLY happened. Convenient.
http://humansarefree.com/2014/04/navy-seal-team-six-was-executed-by-us.html
You have to think SEAL Team 6 would be the top target for Al Qaeda, to get revenge for the death of bin Laden. How embarrassing would it be for the US to have to admit that they succeeded?0 -
What colour of poppy will BinCorbyn wear on 11/11 ?
White, green or invisible ?0 -
You seem to miss the point of a trial, which is to establish guilt, not to rubber stamp it so everyone feels happy.Cyclefree said:
I would not be entirely surprised if that were the case.Floater said:
perhaps in his mind he does choose good over evil.Cyclefree said:
I don't want someone who makes a careful choice of words. I want someone who understands that Bin Laden was evil and that his death was not a tragedy. It is the sentiments which are wrong not the words.SirNorfolkPassmore said:Corbyn's problem here is not describing extra-judicial execution as wrong, but describing the death of a mass murderer as a "tragedy" - the same term one would apply to, well, something like the deaths of 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001.
Part of Corbyn's appeal to certain people is that he doesn't talk like somebody who has been tutored in the extremely careful choice of words... but careful choice of words does have its advantages!
Incidentally, I think his choice to go on Press TV was also unwise. This is a Iranian Government propaganda channel that was ultimately taken off air (jumped before being pushed) after a range of problems culminating in broadcasting an interview with a prisoner given under duress. Useful idiots like Corbyn shouldn't get involved in lending legitimacy to the highly dubious mouthpiece of a repressive regime.
Corbyn gives the impression that he does not understand the difference between good and evil and that, if he did, he would choose evil.
Frightening thought of the day.
There were - in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and, indeed, this happens after very tragedy - big or large - plenty of people willing to blame the victims for what was done to them.
In an ideal world, evil people who commit mass murder should be brought to trial. But we are not in an ideal world and the reason the world is not ideal at the moment is due in no small part to the activities of people like Bin Laden and others of his ilk. Bin Laden got what he deserved. Indeed, his death was rather more merciful than the one suffered by all those people in the Twin Towers and on those 4 planes. It might be - at best - regrettable that he was not put on trial. But in no sensible person's mind was it a "tragedy" let alone a tragedy comparable to what happened to the victims that day.
Corbyn will rightly be excoriated for what he has said in this regard. As will the Labour party, if they are foolish enough to elect him. Too bad.
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I was in Devon just over a week ago.MarqueeMark said:
We can agree on something! We didn't even have the early July heatwave down here in Devon; struggled to break through 20C...malcolmg said:
Cyclefre, hello, unfortunately this year in general has been dire, worst summer for many a year.Cyclefree said:
One of the hottest and best summers I ever had in this country was in Pitlochry: swimming, walking, just being out in the open. It was simply glorious. It was the year I passed my Bar exams and my boyfriend's father, a Scottish judge (apologies - am not meaning to sound boastful) rang me to tell my results.... He was a lovely man.malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
Horrible, horrible weather.
Also popped into Ilfracombe a place filled with many happy childhood memories.
Sad to see it in its current state.0 -
I don't recall from the killing vid whether the Seal who shot OBL actually read him his Miranda rights before he popped him... disgraceful behaviour.0
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The Obama regime was already slanted. So what else is new?saddened said:
Are you sure, puts a new slant on ghost written books.MarqueeMark said:
The only thing that is a bit weird is that all members of SEAL Team 6 who attacked the compound were killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.SeanT said:
I'm finding it hard to unearth any significant political figures who believe that the assassination of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged (like the Holocaust?) - which is what Corbyn says in that interview. Watch it.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
This is going unnoticed in Tragedygate. Corbyn is 100% batcrap crazy. He will adopt any position which might make America look bad, even if that position is lunatic; he will also adopt several contrary opinions on the same subject, just as long as all of them are anti-American - which, again, he does in that interview:
He goes from saying the assassination was faked and phoney, to saying Bin Laden has been dead a year, to saying the death was "medieval triumphalism", to demanding America exhibit the body, to saying the assassination was a "tragedy" just like 9/11, all in one remark.
In short, he's a fucking nutter.
All 22 members.
So no source left to go to ask what REALLY happened. Convenient.0 -
Burnham is on that QT w Ashdowns, would be interesting to see what he had to say0
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Corbyn is still available at 2/9 in two places but you'll have to hurry, it looks like it's not going to last, some other firms are now as low as 1/7.
You can get 6/1 Burnham and 11/1 Cooper, Kendall is any price you like!0 -
Plenty of precedent for disposing of the body, Edmund. After the Nuremburg trial, the bodies of the executed Nazi leaders (including Goering) were cremated and secretly dumped in the river Isar so that there could be no shrine or monument.edmundintokyo said:
It sounds a bit unlikely - you'd think there would have been more reporting by now with a bit more supporting detail, if only in the - ahem - marginal press.SeanT said:
Do you agree with Corbyn that the death of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged? A phoney stunt, when Bin Laden had already been dead a year?edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
Even if you don't agree, perhaps you could talk us through Jeremy's thought processes, and why he might have reached that unexpected conclusion?
Thanks.
I can't speak for Jeremy Corbyn's thought process but the bit where they throw the evidence in the sea before anybody can verify that it's him is a bit weird.0 -
"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
Mike hits the nail firmly on the head. And every time Labour politicians are left trying to explain away the "context" of his controversial previous comments, the public will be left questioning the loyalty of the Labour party as the main Opposition under Corbyn, and whether they can be trusted in a time of crisis. The unfolding dynamics of a Corbyn led Labour party vs the currently dominant SNP as the Libdems have collapsed in Scotland is going to be fascinating to watch.0 -
Have you worked out a smart fone can be useful without a contract yet.MikeK said:
The Obama regime was already slanted. So what else is new?saddened said:
Are you sure, puts a new slant on ghost written books.MarqueeMark said:
The only thing that is a bit weird is that all members of SEAL Team 6 who attacked the compound were killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.SeanT said:
I'm finding it hard to unearth any significant political figures who believe that the assassination of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged (like the Holocaust?) - which is what Corbyn says in that interview. Watch it.RodCrosby said:Corbyn not saying anything different than others said at the time, even more forcefully.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-lib-dem-leader-said-the-same-thing-as-jeremy-corbyn-about-bin-ladens-killing-10479663.html
This is going unnoticed in Tragedygate. Corbyn is 100% batcrap crazy. He will adopt any position which might make America look bad, even if that position is lunatic; he will also adopt several contrary opinions on the same subject, just as long as all of them are anti-American - which, again, he does in that interview:
He goes from saying the assassination was faked and phoney, to saying Bin Laden has been dead a year, to saying the death was "medieval triumphalism", to demanding America exhibit the body, to saying the assassination was a "tragedy" just like 9/11, all in one remark.
In short, he's a fucking nutter.
All 22 members.
So no source left to go to ask what REALLY happened. Convenient.0 -
The responsibility for Corbyn becoming Labour leader lies with all those who voted for him, whatever their reasons. The vast majority are hard lefties and Palmer-style Useful Idiots, but Tories are voting for him too. That's not thr fault of the Conservative party, but the individuals concerned just have to accept they have been as short-sighted, stupid and as juvenile as any of ther other £3ers, and that Corbyn will not only cause huge damage to Labour, but will also bring a smile to the faces of this country's enemies across the wotld and cause many of our friends to think worse of us - with the possible consequences that may bring in wishing to share intelligence etc.SeanT said:
Once Corbyn is elected and proves to be a squalid disaster, Tories will need to show that they did their best for the country, when it was still possible to stop Jihadi Jez. Ergo they need to oppose him NOW, not stay entirely silent and gloaty as Labour shoots its own legs off.antifrank said:1) presumably the Conservatives are now sure that Jeremy Corbyn has won.
2) we're seeing the Icke-ification of Jeremy Corbyn.
Look at Southam below, he'd love to be able to blame Tories for this malign development. Tories must ensure Labour owns this horrible error. And they will.
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I can see how he might have a problem with thatmalcolmg said:
He did not half start stuttering though when called out on job numbers, he never managed to explain how 520 = 19,000.ReggieCide said:
You may see it as a problem, but it's part of the platform on which he and the Tories got elected and are the UK governmentscotslass said:Osborne and Trident
Yes but the "too clever by half" Chancellor didn't pitch his argument this morning on Trafalger class submerines but on Trident. He seemed unprepared when the BBC Scotland interviewer pointed out that the specifically Trident component of the base provides but 520 civilian jobs, on the MODs own figures!
He wanted to make the political point and was found out - that is his problem.0 -
Where were the trials for the thousands of people he led others to kill?Luckyguy1983 said:
You seem to miss the point of a trial, which is to establish guilt, not to rubber stamp it so everyone feels happy.Cyclefree said:
I would not be entirely surprised if that were the case.Floater said:
perhaps in his mind he does choose good over evil.Cyclefree said:
I don't want someone who makes a careful choice of words. I want someone who understands that Bin Laden was evil and that his death was not a tragedy. It is the sentiments which are wrong not the words.SirNorfolkPassmore said:Corbyn's problem here is not describing extra-judicial execution as wrong, but describing the death of a mass murderer as a "tragedy" - the same term one would apply to, well, something like the deaths of 3000 innocent people on 11 September 2001.
Part of Corbyn's appeal to certain people is that he doesn't talk like somebody who has been tutored in the extremely careful choice of words... but careful choice of words does have its advantages!
Incidentally, I think his choice to go on Press TV was also unwise. This is a Iranian Government propaganda channel that was ultimately taken off air (jumped before being pushed) after a range of problems culminating in broadcasting an interview with a prisoner given under duress. Useful idiots like Corbyn shouldn't get involved in lending legitimacy to the highly dubious mouthpiece of a repressive regime.
Corbyn gives the impression that he does not understand the difference between good and evil and that, if he did, he would choose evil.
Frightening thought of the day.
There were - in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and, indeed, this happens after very tragedy - big or large - plenty of people willing to blame the victims for what was done to them.
In an ideal world, evil people who commit mass murder should be brought to trial. But we are not in an ideal world and the reason the world is not ideal at the moment is due in no small part to the activities of people like Bin Laden and others of his ilk. Bin Laden got what he deserved. Indeed, his death was rather more merciful than the one suffered by all those people in the Twin Towers and on those 4 planes. It might be - at best - regrettable that he was not put on trial. But in no sensible person's mind was it a "tragedy" let alone a tragedy comparable to what happened to the victims that day.
Corbyn will rightly be excoriated for what he has said in this regard. As will the Labour party, if they are foolish enough to elect him. Too bad.
Even the UN Security Council applauded his death, FFS.0 -
In all seriousness spent some time in Scotland last summer for the first time in *cough* 40 years *cough*malcolmg said:
toucheFloater said:
You in Yorkshire today?malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
Absolutely loved it and wished we had arranged to stay longer.0 -
Regarding the latter point "orders made in council under the various pieces of delegated legislation, such as the European Arrest Warrant". I think that refers to powers that had already been delegated (or the power to delegate those powers, if you see what I mean), so no referendum triggerIndigo said:
Its massively circumventable, since its excludes powers transferred as part of an accession treaty (which is a hell of a big percentage) and powers transferred by non-parliamentary means, such as by orders made in council under the various pieces of delegated legislation, such as the European Arrest Warrant.viewcode said:I find myself in a cleft stick here: I agree with you that the Liberal refusal to offer a EU referendum was bad, and I agree that they should offered one as specified in their manifesto. However if you were referring to the European Union Act 2011, when you said "their bill to trigger future referendums on a future transfer of powers is a circumventable piece of deception", then I must disagree with you: it was not a Liberal-only bill, it is not circumventable, and the intent was not to decieve. It is very narrowly defined, but that's not the same thing.
Regarding the former point "powers transferred as part of an accession treaty", if you are referring to the Croation accession then again, no powers were transferred, so no referendum trigger. The UK could allow the accession of every country on the planet to the EU and that would not require a single transfer of powers ("competences" in the jargon), so no referendum trigger
To explain by analogy. The European Union Act 2011 prevents you from laying new track. It doesn't stop you building new trains and running new trains down existing track.
[EDIT: make last sentence read "It doesn't stop you building new trains and running new trains down existing track". Sorry for the crap wording]0 -
This 'he's a moderate thing' is exactly the same as was said at the time of Stalin and Hitler: "they're keeping the extreme elements in check". Only long after the case did it become clear that they were in fact the most extreme elements.edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
To the extent that those comments reveal anything, it's merely tactics, not ideology. ISIS and Al Qaida obviously vary in many ways - I don't think AQ ever set itself up as a potential government - but in aims, objectives and methods? Not really. A man who could authorise, plan and execute a terrorist attack that could have killed several tens of thousands - if the towers had collapsed immediately - cannot in any sense be called a moderate, even against the likes of ISIS.0 -
I think you're personalising it too much with the Obama stuff. Let's just say I think he could have been found by the US authorities. No-one can really hide these days, especially not if you wear a distinctive beard and you keep releasing video clips of yourself. US foreign policy has a somewhat symbiotic relationship with Arab terrorists. They're more useful alive for a while before they're liquidated.SeanT said:
So you actually and sincerely believe that Obama knew where Bin Laden was hiding, and they did nothing about it, waiting for the moment when his death would maximise publicity for Obama, even though they ran the risk of Public Enemy Number One escaping?Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not sure about faked or staged, but certainly kept until a certain point, and used as a deliberate propaganda coup. The fact that they scoured the earth up to that point and aparently failed to find him was ridiculous. He was keeping for such time as he was more useful dead than alive.SeanT said:Can the dwindling number of Corbynites on pb tell us whether they agree with the Dear Leader Manque that the assassination of Bin Laden was very possibly faked, and staged? and that Bin Laden had been dead a year, already?
And, if they do agree, what are their thoughts on the moon landings?
I have no opinion either way on the moon landings.
Rrrrrright
Meanwhile edmund has joined you in pb Psych Ward.
Eesh.
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It's hard to see him having a choice in the matter. Anyone with ambition must recognise that to serve would be to accept a poisoned chaliceMikeK said:
Is he going to build a flat-pack shadow cabinet?ReggieCide said:
He's going to IKEA and wants to make sure he'll be able to coperottenborough said:Morning all,
I see Telegraph is reporting that Corbyn plans to start assembling his shadow cabinet "within days". Bit premature me thinks.0 -
What I find disappointing about the £3ers is the glee they have taken in ignoring a sense of fair play. Sad endictment of the modern world, morality swapped for whatever you can get away with and justify on small printSouthamObserver said:
The responsibility for Corbyn becoming Labour leader lies with all those who voted for him, whatever their reasons. The vast majority are hard lefties and Palmer-style Useful Idiots, but Tories are voting for him too. That's not thr fault of the Conservative party, but the individuals concerned just have to accept they have been as short-sighted, stupid and as juvenile as any of ther other £3ers, and that Corbyn will not only cause huge damage to Labour, but will also bring a smile to the faces of this country's enemies across the wotld and cause many of our friends to think worse of us - with the possible consequences that may bring in wishing to share intelligence etc.SeanT said:
Once Corbyn is elected and proves to be a squalid disaster, Tories will need to show that they did their best for the country, when it was still possible to stop Jihadi Jez. Ergo they need to oppose him NOW, not stay entirely silent and gloaty as Labour shoots its own legs off.antifrank said:1) presumably the Conservatives are now sure that Jeremy Corbyn has won.
2) we're seeing the Icke-ification of Jeremy Corbyn.
Look at Southam below, he'd love to be able to blame Tories for this malign development. Tories must ensure Labour owns this horrible error. And they will.
Ŷ0 -
An equal tragedy to 9/11, apparently.Luckyguy1983 said:He would be unlikely to be endorsing Bin Laden on Press TV; Iran is a Shia country at daggers drawn with Sunni Al Qaeda. Corbyn was clearly saying it was a tragedy that due process had not taken place. A subtlety that was no doubt lost on readers of The Sun, but should not have been lost on readers of PB.
Remember: if you're explaining, you're losing.0 -
The point is, we cannot be sure he was responsible until he is put on trial. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.JosiasJessop said:
Where were the trials for the thousands of people he led others to kill?
Even the UN Security Council applauded his death, FFS.
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So you think resurrecting the jizya is ok if the people being "protected" actually get "protection"edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
Interesting
NB - you might want to do a little more research on that.0 -
You're welcome. And more gracious than I would have been...:-)richardDodd said:Viwcode Thank you for that... some people also sail out of there on small boats and yachts..as well as walk and use public transport along the roads..I just happened to be on a huge Fuck You submarine..but all info is useful ..
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Why do you not tell us as you voted for Corbyn as your so f ing clever.SeanT said:Can the dwindling number of Corbynites on pb tell us whether they agree with the Dear Leader Manque that the assassination of Bin Laden was very possibly faked, and staged? and that Bin Laden had been dead a year, already?
And, if they do agree, what are their thoughts on the moon landings?
0 -
Nice observation prompting amusing memoriesantifrank said:1) presumably the Conservatives are now sure that Jeremy Corbyn has won.
2) we're seeing the Icke-ification of Jeremy Corbyn.0 -
Ridiculous perhaps, but not an endorsement of Bin Laden, which is clearly the slant of the story.JEO said:
Corbyn's problem is that he thinks we're the bad guys. And it's ridiculous to think due process can be followed with someone that is dangerous, at large, and in another country.Luckyguy1983 said:He would be unlikely to be endorsing Bin Laden on Press TV; Iran is a Shia country at daggers drawn with Sunni Al Qaeda. Corbyn was clearly saying it was a tragedy that due process had not taken place. A subtlety that was no doubt lost on readers of The Sun, but should not have been lost on readers of PB.
A comparison may also be drawn with Tony Blair, who we now know made a last ditch attempt to broker a deal for Gadaffi to be kept alive. I don't really want to get into the rights and wrongs of Gadaffi being butchered by a mob, but here we have an example of a former Labour leader (and PM) not just thinking it was a tragedy that a wicked alleged mass killer was killed, but actively intervening to prevent it. This stuff goes on all the time. Corbyn just gets mixed up with the wrong bad guys not the approved bad guys.
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Ilfracombe is becoming Damien Hirst's plaything. Although I hear good things about his restaurant there.Floater said:
I was in Devon just over a week ago.MarqueeMark said:
We can agree on something! We didn't even have the early July heatwave down here in Devon; struggled to break through 20C...malcolmg said:
Cyclefre, hello, unfortunately this year in general has been dire, worst summer for many a year.Cyclefree said:
One of the hottest and best summers I ever had in this country was in Pitlochry: swimming, walking, just being out in the open. It was simply glorious. It was the year I passed my Bar exams and my boyfriend's father, a Scottish judge (apologies - am not meaning to sound boastful) rang me to tell my results.... He was a lovely man.malcolmg said:
briiliant sunshine in God's countrydavid_herdson said:
Chance would be a fine thing: it's chucking it down.richardDodd said:Far too busy on PB today.. you should all be out there sweltering in a traffic jam..
Horrible, horrible weather.
Also popped into Ilfracombe a place filled with many happy childhood memories.
Sad to see it in its current state.0 -
I'm afraid I don't buy the idea that collective identity has waned to any significant degree, at least as far as nationality is concerned. It's continued existence is one of the many reasons why Corbyn is unelectable. I'd also strongly dispute the notion that there was any wideranging, collective national identity before the 1870s and the development of a national education system.JEO said:
Rising living standards between 1500 and 1950 didn't destroy a sense of collective nationalism. Why would they be the cause of rising individualism after that? Rising living standards should make people feel more comfortable in looking after themselves and be able to better afford to raise a family, to build a business, to take part in civic society. Equally, new forms of communications should improve the ability to organize clubs and charities.SouthamObserver said:Fascinating that the Left destroyed collectivism. There was me thinking it was rising living standards, more choice and new forms of communication that were largely responsible. I should have known it was multiculturalism.
No, what caused a decline in a collective identity is,
(1) The rise in a mentality of life being something for pure material and personal enjoyment rather than to achieve something in your lifetime. (I do accept parts of the right bought into this as much as the left.)
(2) Moral relativism, where all moral systems are considered equal and fair enough, so there was a breakdown in common values among people of different backgrounds, so we feel less like one nation.
(3) The bringing here of large numbers of people at a rate faster than they could be integrated into the shared culture of the existing population. This again made the sense of collective identity breakdown.
0 -
Is the London Review of Books counted as marginal? The account there, which suggests he was unarmed, and there was no firefight seems plausible enough.edmundintokyo said:
It sounds a bit unlikely - you'd think there would have been more reporting by now with a bit more supporting detail, if only in the - ahem - marginal press.SeanT said:
Do you agree with Corbyn that the death of Bin Laden was possibly faked and staged? A phoney stunt, when Bin Laden had already been dead a year?edmundintokyo said:
Compared to Ken Clarke or Nick Clegg, obviously not. Compared to ISIS, yes.Floater said:
"less moderate"edmundintokyo said:On the politics, this is not good.
On the substance, it looks pretty astute in hindsight, doesn't it? The US assassinated the Al Qaeda leadership and Al Qaeda got replaced by people less moderate than them. Then they took out the Libyan government too, and that didn't work out as well as they'd hoped. Tragedy after tragedy, each one creating the next tragedy.
WTF????????
OBL was a moderate in your eyes?
Read his letters - a lot of them are him ineffectually urging the people who were now exercising Islamicist Nutjob power on the ground to be less brutal, not try to hold territory unless you can govern it properly, not force non-believers to pay a protection tax unless they're actually getting protection, etc etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Osama-bin-Laden-Diaries/dp/1620873826
Even if you don't agree, perhaps you could talk us through Jeremy's thought processes, and why he might have reached that unexpected conclusion?
Thanks.
I can't speak for Jeremy Corbyn's thought process but the bit where they throw the evidence in the sea before anybody can verify that it's him is a bit weird.0 -
What's difficult to understand is why anyone would think he was not guilty. Unless, of course, you are a stupid tinfoil hatter.Luckyguy1983 said:
The point is, we cannot be sure he was responsible until he is put on trial. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.JosiasJessop said:
Where were the trials for the thousands of people he led others to kill?
Even the UN Security Council applauded his death, FFS.
Again, where were the trials for the thousands - including Muslims - that he killed?0 -
You make a reasonable point, you're right it was not just the LDEMs, it was a liberal cross-party consensus that passed the silly bill.viewcode said:
Regarding the latter point "orders made in council under the various pieces of delegated legislation, such as the European Arrest Warrant". I think that refers to powers that had already been delegated (or the power to delegate those powers, if you see what I mean), so no referendum triggerIndigo said:
Its massively circumventable, since its excludes powers transferred as part of an accession treaty (which is a hell of a big percentage) and powers transferred by non-parliamentary means, such as by orders made in council under the various pieces of delegated legislation, such as the European Arrest Warrant.viewcode said:I find myself in a cleft stick here: I agree with you that the Liberal refusal to offer a EU referendum was bad, and I agree that they should offered one as specified in their manifesto. However if you were referring to the European Union Act 2011, when you said "their bill to trigger future referendums on a future transfer of powers is a circumventable piece of deception", then I must disagree with you: it was not a Liberal-only bill, it is not circumventable, and the intent was not to decieve. It is very narrowly defined, but that's not the same thing.
Regarding the former point "powers transferred as part of an accession treaty", if you are referring to the Croation accession then again, no powers were transferred, so no referendum trigger. The UK could allow the accession of every country on the planet to the EU and that would not require a single transfer of powers ("competences" in the jargon), so no referendum trigger
To explain by analogy. The European Union Act 2011 prevents you from laying new track. It doesn't stop you building new trains and running new trains down existing track.
[EDIT: make last sentence read "It doesn't stop you building new trains and running new trains down existing track". Sorry for the crap wording] 0
