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Comments
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That's desperate, Speedy.Speedy said:
I think he can shrug Mann off by equally pointing that if he is responsible for that sex scandal simply because he is the local MP, then John Mann is equally responsible for the sex scandals in Bassetlaw, like this one:dr_spyn said:Has Corbyn issued a writ yet?
http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/dogging-scandal-at-clumber-1-638210
No writs needed, just humour at the face of absurdity.
You really expect to be taken seriously comparing covered-up child abuse in Islington children's homes and dogging in Clumber Park ie consenting adults having sex in public, and suggesting that both are equally scandalous?
LOL.
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Jeremy Corbyn today claimed the Labour leadership contest had reached a 'new low' after a fellow MP accused him of failing to act on child abuse allegations.
In an open letter Labour MP John Mann - who is backing Yvette Cooper - said it was 'inappropriate' for Mr Corbyn to stand to be Labour leader at the time of the major inquiry into abuse which will 'haunt this Parliament'.
He claimed Mr Corbyn 'inadvertently helped the rubbishing' allegations made by Tory MP Geoffrey Dickens in the 1980s and blamed the 'trendy left' for covering up abuse.
But the Corbyn campaign hit back tonight, insisting he has 'a long record of standing up for his constituents'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3172430/A-new-low-Labour-leadership-race-Jeremy-Corbyn-hits-rival-s-attempt-accuse-non-action-child-abuse.html#ixzz3gjzkzpmm
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook0 -
No - it is really about patients. I suspect it will be difficult to explain my views without appearing to be part of the "provider problem" but I'll have a go.TGOHF said:
No mention of patients again.franklyn said:
I am a Conservative voter, and a party member, but, and I say this as someone who started work in the NHS as a lab assistant in 1969, was a medical student 1969-75 and then a doctor 1975-present, that Hunt has taken on a unique position in antagonizing the workforce; he has shown himself as the worst Health Minister (and I have been through quite a number) in the last 46 years. I fully support reform. I support the Conservative party, but I cannot support the ignorant and aggressive style of this man.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is entirely about politics and about sad idiots who can't accept the fact that the Tories won a majority and so can pursue their agenda as they see fit so long as they can command a majority in the Hoc.franklyn said:May I draw readers' attention to the government petition website https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334
This petition has reached over 176.000 signatures in 48 hours, and passed the 100,000 threshold in 24 hours.
This isn't about politics; this is about Jeremy Hunt having no concept of the degree to which the NHS is, and has always been, dependent on the good will of the workforce.
Please sign and let others know about it
It doesn't matter how many people sign the petition. They will not overturn a democratically elected Government (who just for the record I did not vote for and do not support).
It really isn't all about you.
I will make an assumption that you don't believe that doctors and nurses (of any type and seniority) should be working full hours 7 day a week.
In order to provide a full service 7 days a week, in primary or secondary care, will thus require either a lot more doctors and nurses (of all grades) or it will mean a dilution in the quality of provision and a reduction in access. The former affects patients in their pockets - 'cos it will have to be paid for. The latter affects patients in the quality of their healthcare.
I would work at weekends, if somebody would explain to my patients on weekdays why they couldn't get an appointment.
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The UK public are prepared to pay 37% or thereabouts of their income to fund public services. It ought to be possible to run decent public services out of that sum.Disraeli said:
That's exactly what I personally want to see - though I can only speak for myself, of course.Cyclefree said:
But aren't we - the patients and the taxpayers - entitled to ask that the service be provided on a 24/7 basis? And work out a sensible way to achieve that?
The limiting factor is our attitudes to public services and their funding. We criticise the Greeks for "wanting their cake and eating it", but when it comes to public services the great UK public wants a Rolls Royce service for the cost of a Renault.
[Edited to remove a Grocer's Apostrophe]
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I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm puzzled why - when I was growing up - my GP (and it was just him) - was open all week, including Saturday mornings and did do home visits. And now, the same surgery - has a number of doctors and is pretty good - is only open during the week.Blofelds_Cat said:
No - it is really about patients. I suspect it will be difficult to explain my views without appearing to be part of the "provider problem" but I'll have a go.TGOHF said:
No mention of patients again.franklyn said:
I am a Conservative voter, and a party member, but, and I say this as someone who started work in the NHS as a lab assistant in 1969, was a medical student 1969-75 and then a doctor 1975-present, that Hunt has taken on a unique position in antagonizing the workforce; he has shown himself as the worst Health Minister (and I have been through quite a number) in the last 46 years. I fully support reform. I support the Conservative party, but I cannot support the ignorant and aggressive style of this man.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is entirely about politics and about sad idiots who can't accept the fact that the Tories won a majority and so can pursue their agenda as they see fit so long as they can command a majority in the Hoc.franklyn said:May I draw readers' attention to the government petition website https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334
This petition has reached over 176.000 signatures in 48 hours, and passed the 100,000 threshold in 24 hours.
This isn't about politics; this is about Jeremy Hunt having no concept of the degree to which the NHS is, and has always been, dependent on the good will of the workforce.
Please sign and let others know about it
It doesn't matter how many people sign the petition. They will not overturn a democratically elected Government (who just for the record I did not vote for and do not support).
It really isn't all about you.
I will make an assumption that you don't believe that doctors and nurses (of any type and seniority) should be working full hours 7 day a week.
In order to provide a full service 7 days a week, in primary or secondary care, will thus require either a lot more doctors and nurses (of all grades) or it will mean a dilution in the quality of provision and a reduction in access. The former affects patients in their pockets - 'cos it will have to be paid for. The latter affects patients in the quality of their healthcare.
I would work at weekends, if somebody would explain to my patients on weekdays why they couldn't get an appointment.
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Blair was at his most popular when he was a weathervane, he started to lose popularity when he got some convictions!Plato said:I think Yvette is a better candidate, even though she says nothing. Andy is such a weathervane - Labour has enough issues without having a leader who can't stick with the same opinion for 24hrs.
Don't like her myself, but she's the best uncontroversial candidate to hold the ship together.Danny565 said:I'm still torn between Andy and Yvette. I'd been drifting to the view that Yvette would be a more robust and competent leader, but this is the second poll in a row where the electorate have given her markedly worse ratings than Andy. We really need some more to be commissioned.
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I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.0 -
Geoffrey Dickens was a loudmouth, but he was clearly one of the good guys, when it came to exposing child sex scandals.matt said:
John Mann strikes me as the modern equivalent of a Geoffrey Dickens or Peter Brunievals. ie a less than talented bullshiter who can't resist a microphone, and the media knows it.SimonStClare said:
Labour's feral nature would be more appropriate..!antifrank said:John Mann's intervention tells you everything you need to know about the febrile nature of today's Labour party.
Sometimes the annoying truculent people ar right.0 -
None of that is surprising. The hard left is well-represented in professional occupations in London and core cities.Fenster said:I have been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
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Have you two decided where to honeymoon yet?HYUFD said:
Blair was at his most popular when he was a weathervane, he started to lose popularity when he got some convictions!Plato said:I think Yvette is a better candidate, even though she says nothing. Andy is such a weathervane - Labour has enough issues without having a leader who can't stick with the same opinion for 24hrs.
Don't like her myself, but she's the best uncontroversial candidate to hold the ship together.Danny565 said:I'm still torn between Andy and Yvette. I'd been drifting to the view that Yvette would be a more robust and competent leader, but this is the second poll in a row where the electorate have given her markedly worse ratings than Andy. We really need some more to be commissioned.
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A "decent" service. Absolutely! The NHS is very cost-effective in providing that.Sean_F said:
The UK public are prepared to pay 37% or thereabouts of their income to fund public services. It ought to be possible to run decent public services out of that sum.Disraeli said:
That's exactly what I personally want to see - though I can only speak for myself, of course.Cyclefree said:
But aren't we - the patients and the taxpayers - entitled to ask that the service be provided on a 24/7 basis? And work out a sensible way to achieve that?
The limiting factor is our attitudes to public services and their funding. We criticise the Greeks for "wanting their cake and eating it", but when it comes to public services the great UK public wants a Rolls Royce service for the cost of a Renault.
[Edited to remove a Grocer's Apostrophe]
"The NHS – a stunningly cost effective supplier of high quality healthcare"
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/06/06/the-nhs-a-stunningly-cost-effective-supplier-of-high-quality-healthcare/
"Report in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine finds health service second only to Ireland for cost-effectiveness "
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services
"The NHS and USA’s Efficiency and Effectiveness in reducing mortality"
"Cost-Effectiveness ratio: ..., the USA cost-effective ratio was 1: 515 pm deaths, whereas the UK had the second highest ratio at 1: 1490pm, almost three times more cost-effective than the USA, where `private health care’ is the dominant model."
http://www.sochealth.co.uk/links/campaigns/denigration-of-the-nhs/the-nhs-and-the-usas-efficiency-and-effectiveness-in-reducing-mortality/
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Because almost all GPs are oversubscribed, and there is little competition between them. They know that not offering midnight service will not affect the number of patients on their books. (And they get paid per patient. Worse, a patient that needs them in the middle of the night is the kind of patient who needs lots of help... i.e., it's exactly the kind of often sick patient they desperately wish to avoid.)Cyclefree said:I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm puzzled why - when I was growing up - my GP (and it was just him) - was open all week, including Saturday mornings and did do home visits. And now, the same surgery - has a number of doctors and is pretty good - is only open during the week.
If GPs really worried about keeping patients, they would offer home visits, etc. But they do not.0 -
Let me guess: the responses shooting you down were very heavily 'liked'?Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
That's why I post less and less on facebook. It gets irrational, heated and personal and encourages playing to the crowd. Or silence.0 -
On a per taxpayer basis, the US government spends more on healthcare than the UK does (Medicare + Medicaid + Veterans).Disraeli said:
A "decent" service. Absolutely! The NHS is very cost-effective in providing that.Sean_F said:
The UK public are prepared to pay 37% or thereabouts of their income to fund public services. It ought to be possible to run decent public services out of that sum.Disraeli said:
That's exactly what I personally want to see - though I can only speak for myself, of course.Cyclefree said:
But aren't we - the patients and the taxpayers - entitled to ask that the service be provided on a 24/7 basis? And work out a sensible way to achieve that?
The limiting factor is our attitudes to public services and their funding. We criticise the Greeks for "wanting their cake and eating it", but when it comes to public services the great UK public wants a Rolls Royce service for the cost of a Renault.
[Edited to remove a Grocer's Apostrophe]
"The NHS – a stunningly cost effective supplier of high quality healthcare"
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/06/06/the-nhs-a-stunningly-cost-effective-supplier-of-high-quality-healthcare/
"Report in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine finds health service second only to Ireland for cost-effectiveness "
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services
"The NHS and USA’s Efficiency and Effectiveness in reducing mortality"
"Cost-Effectiveness ratio: ..., the USA cost-effective ratio was 1: 515 pm deaths, whereas the UK had the second highest ratio at 1: 1490pm, almost three times more cost-effective than the USA, where `private health care’ is the dominant model."
http://www.sochealth.co.uk/links/campaigns/denigration-of-the-nhs/the-nhs-and-the-usas-efficiency-and-effectiveness-in-reducing-mortality/
And that only pays for around 25% of population.0 -
Yeah they were egging each other on and I know people get wound up and a bit silly on social media but I wasn't expecting it off these people. I was told to stop eating all the right wing bullshit people are feeding me and to think for myself.Casino_Royale said:
Let me guess: the responses shooting you down were very heavily 'liked'?Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
That's why I post less and less on facebook. It gets irrational, heated and personal and encourages playing to the crowd. Or silence.
I didn't have the nerve to tell them I read PB
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I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)-1 -
One of things that I think marks PB out is how little piling on there is - and newbies used to a less informed debate quickly realise that asserting your opinion isn't a fact.
Providing evidence of one's position makes for much more civilised discussion/stops a lot of silly hyperbole.Fenster said:
Yeah they were egging each other on and I know people get wound up and a bit silly on social media but I wasn't expecting it off these people. I was told to stop eating all the right wing bullshit people are feeding me and to think for myself.Casino_Royale said:
Let me guess: the responses shooting you down were very heavily 'liked'?Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
That's why I post less and less on facebook. It gets irrational, heated and personal and encourages playing to the crowd. Or silence.
I didn't have the nerve to tell them I read PB0 -
Welcome aboard, Mr Blue!CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)0 -
I would probably vote for Osborne over Burnham in 2020, that does not mean I don't think Burnham is Labour's best chance of beating him. 2015 was the only time I have not voted Tory at a general election since I first voted in 2001 (I voted LD and Tory at council level)Plato said:Have you two decided where to honeymoon yet?
HYUFD said:
Blair was at his most popular when he was a weathervane, he started to lose popularity when he got some convictions!Plato said:I think Yvette is a better candidate, even though she says nothing. Andy is such a weathervane - Labour has enough issues without having a leader who can't stick with the same opinion for 24hrs.
Don't like her myself, but she's the best uncontroversial candidate to hold the ship together.Danny565 said:I'm still torn between Andy and Yvette. I'd been drifting to the view that Yvette would be a more robust and competent leader, but this is the second poll in a row where the electorate have given her markedly worse ratings than Andy. We really need some more to be commissioned.
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Welcome.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
Did you spot any of IOS's ground game down in Cornwall?0 -
Corbyn is in Bristol.
One running commentry from twitter.com/bristolpa
People's Assembly group seem to be summing thing up. Have noticed one Labour supporter tweeting about plenty of Greens, SWP and CPGB turning up to hear Jezza. He also implies that there are Greens for Corbyn joining Labour.
Sign off with this gem.
Bristol PplsAssembly @bristolpa 2m2 minutes ago
#ScrapTridant to make us secure by not threatening anyone else with nuclear weapons. Thats true security #JezWeCan
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Good evening, everyone.
Welcome to pb.com, Mr. Blue.
Hungary's covered live, so I might watch the practice sessions on BBC2. Williams versus Ferrari could be interesting.0 -
Saw an old episode of Drop The Dead Donkey on repeat the other week.Sean_F said:
Geoffrey Dickens was a loudmouth, but he was clearly one of the good guys, when it came to exposing child sex scandals.matt said:
John Mann strikes me as the modern equivalent of a Geoffrey Dickens or Peter Brunievals. ie a less than talented bullshiter who can't resist a microphone, and the media knows it.SimonStClare said:
Labour's feral nature would be more appropriate..!antifrank said:John Mann's intervention tells you everything you need to know about the febrile nature of today's Labour party.
Sometimes the annoying truculent people ar right.
That was a hit BBC sit-com in the 90s. It was making jokes like, 'Girlfriend? Oh no, he prefers little boys!' Guffaw.
Up until fairly recently, this was seen as a joke.0 -
No surprise there.dr_spyn said:
Corbyn is in Bristol.
One running commentry from twitter.com/bristolpa
People's Assembly group seem to be summing thing up. Have noticed one Labour supporter tweeting about plenty of Greens, SWP and CPGB turning up to hear Jezza. He also implies that there are Greens for Corbyn joining Labour.
Sign off with this gem.
Bristol PplsAssembly @bristolpa 2m2 minutes ago
#ScrapTridant to make us secure by not threatening anyone else with nuclear weapons. Thats true security #JezWeCan0 -
Dr. Spyn, to be fair, the Roman Empire was at its most powerful when the legions put down the gladius and hugged their enemies instead.0
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What the issue here is the fact the BMA would rather not have the very generous consultant contracts negotiated by Labour in the past to be reopened by the Conservatives.Cyclefree said:
I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm puzzled why - when I was growing up - my GP (and it was just him) - was open all week, including Saturday mornings and did do home visits. And now, the same surgery - has a number of doctors and is pretty good - is only open during the week.Blofelds_Cat said:
No - it is really about patients. I suspect it will be difficult to explain my views without appearing to be part of the "provider problem" but I'll have a go.TGOHF said:
No mention of patients again.franklyn said:
I am a Conservative voter, and a party member, but, and I say this as someone who started work in the NHS as a lab assistant in 1969, was a medical student 1969-75 and then a doctor 1975-present, that Hunt has taken on a unique position in antagonizing the workforce; he has shown himself as the worst Health Minister (and I have been through quite a number) in the last 46 years. I fully support reform. I support the Conservative party, but I cannot support the ignorant and aggressive style of this man.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is entirely about politics and about sad idiots who can't accept the fact that the Tories won a majority and so can pursue their agenda as they see fit so longfranklyn said:May I draw readers' attention to the government petition website https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334
This petition has reached over 176.000 signatures in 48 hours, and passed the 100,000 threshold in 24 hours.
This isn't about politics; this is about Jeremy Hunt having no concept of the degree to which the NHS is, and has always been, dependent on the good will of the workforce.
Please sign and let others know about it
It doesn't matter how many people sign the petition. They will not overturn a democratically elected Government (who just for the record I did not vote for and do not support).
It really isn't all about you.
I will make an assumption that you don't believe that doctors and nurses (of any type and seniority) should be working full hours 7 day a week.
In order to provide a full service 7 days a week, in primary or secondary care, will thus require either a lot more doctors and nurses (of all grades) or it will mean a dilution in the quality of provision and a reduction in access. The former affects patients in their pockets - 'cos it will have to be paid for. The latter affects patients in the quality of their healthcare.
I would work at weekends, if somebody would explain to my patients on weekdays why they couldn't get an appointment.0 -
I love the misspelling of Trident :-)dr_spyn said:Corbyn is in Bristol.
One running commentry from twitter.com/bristolpa
People's Assembly group seem to be summing thing up. Have noticed one Labour supporter tweeting about plenty of Greens, SWP and CPGB turning up to hear Jezza. He also implies that there are Greens for Corbyn joining Labour.
Sign off with this gem.
Bristol PplsAssembly @bristolpa 2m2 minutes ago
#ScrapTridant to make us secure by not threatening anyone else with nuclear weapons. Thats true security #JezWeCan
That being said: there are plenty of countries around the world that don't have nuclear weapons, and don't seem to find themselves disadvantaged by it.0 -
snip
I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm puzzled why - when I was growing up - my GP (and it was just him) - was open all week, including Saturday mornings and did do home visits. And now, the same surgery - has a number of doctors and is pretty good - is only open during the week.
I wouldn't presume to ask a lady's age, but this is a description of my Grandfather's practice. I know him to have been available round the clock, and he provided GP maternity care as well. However, I also know that it was unusual for him to be called at night, that emergencies were emergencies and he wasn't there to take the place of priest/bank manager/social worker/employment advisor/relationship counsellor/housing officer ..........
And I don't know many GP colleagues who don't do home visits - in many respects, it is one of the best bits of the job
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Frankly, I think all comparisons between the UK and US in healthcare are meaningless. In one system, 100% of the population have a system they have no choice over (save the GE) and may chose to pay extra to top that up. In the other, pre-Obamacare, 85% buy what they want. Some buy an old cheap banger, others buy family cars, and a high percentage buy Rolls Royces, some opt for nothing. Some of the choice is forced (ability to pay) but a lot is real choice (younger professionals not seeing the value in a Rolls Royce at that stage in their life) and even so, many choose to pay for the Rolls Royce.
In the UK, my sister had to wait 6 months from first visit to a doctor to getting a melanoma (a F***ING MELANOMA) removed. In the US, I have something my dermatologist doesn't like during my 6-monthly check up, he removes it there and then and sends it to the lab for work up. I have a follow up to inform me of what it was, whether the margins were ok and what else I should do about it.
I also have to wonder what the data cited in the studies is hiding - what factors are not covered.
Efficiency studies of health care provision certainly have their place. But humans are not automatons or widgets produced on an assembly line. I would read them with a great deal of skepticism.0 -
Don't worry. There're plenty who agree with you who won't bother getting involved.Fenster said:
Yeah they were egging each other on and I know people get wound up and a bit silly on social media but I wasn't expecting it off these people. I was told to stop eating all the right wing bullshit people are feeding me and to think for myself.Casino_Royale said:
Let me guess: the responses shooting you down were very heavily 'liked'?Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
That's why I post less and less on facebook. It gets irrational, heated and personal and encourages playing to the crowd. Or silence.
I didn't have the nerve to tell them I read PB
When I posted my reaction to THAT exit poll, I had 20 likes within minutes from people I'd half-forgotten I'd friended, and all the Lefties were silent.
That was quite a delicious moment.0 -
Mr. 1000, nukes are the ultimate insurance policy.
We'll only ever know if they're really worth it if we find we need them when we don't have them. If IS could use one, they would. And we should have the ability to obliterate ISIS' capital in return, horrific as that would be.
Not to mention we'll have more massive wars in the future. We'll always have nukes, it's just a question of how many.0 -
No one is disadvantaged by a lack of insurance during a period of no fires.rcs1000 said:
I love the misspelling of Trident :-)dr_spyn said:Corbyn is in Bristol.
One running commentry from twitter.com/bristolpa
People's Assembly group seem to be summing thing up. Have noticed one Labour supporter tweeting about plenty of Greens, SWP and CPGB turning up to hear Jezza. He also implies that there are Greens for Corbyn joining Labour.
Sign off with this gem.
Bristol PplsAssembly @bristolpa 2m2 minutes ago
#ScrapTridant to make us secure by not threatening anyone else with nuclear weapons. Thats true security #JezWeCan
That being said: there are plenty of countries around the world that don't have nuclear weapons, and don't seem to find themselves disadvantaged by it.0 -
But that would suggest that - for example - the Swiss, the Swedes or the Spanish are less secure than us.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, nukes are the ultimate insurance policy.
We'll only ever know if they're really worth it if we find we need them when we don't have them. If IS could use one, they would. And we should have the ability to obliterate ISIS' capital in return, horrific as that would be.
Not to mention we'll have more massive wars in the future. We'll always have nukes, it's just a question of how many.
Are they, really?
0 -
Welcome aboard. I am finding it a little disconcerting talking to a cheese, though.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
http://www.cheesevine.com/cornish-blue/0 -
I'm sure you've just committed a hate crime there in Loonyland.
Cheese Bigot.
Tissue_Price said:
Welcome aboard. I am finding it a little disconcerting talking to a cheese, though.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
http://www.cheesevine.com/cornish-blue/0 -
Mr. 1000, perhaps, perhaps not. Would we nuke ISIS if they detonated a nuclear device in Bern? Quite probably. But it'd be a question, not a certainty.
It may well be that as long as The West generally has nukes that works. But some nations still need to have them for that to work.
Mr. T, indeed, but if we could accurately predict when every fire will happen insurance wouldn't exist. It's the doubt that makes insurance a feasible proposition.0 -
During the peak of the Cold War, yes Sweden was less secure than NATO countries who benefitted from the triple nuclear umbrella. Finland more so, to the extent that its foreign policy was constrained by what was acceptable to the Soviet Union. Within NATO, history could make a case that the non-NW states were reduced to vassals of the US. That is a cost too.rcs1000 said:
But that would suggest that - for example - the Swiss, the Swedes or the Spanish are less secure than us.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, nukes are the ultimate insurance policy.
We'll only ever know if they're really worth it if we find we need them when we don't have them. If IS could use one, they would. And we should have the ability to obliterate ISIS' capital in return, horrific as that would be.
Not to mention we'll have more massive wars in the future. We'll always have nukes, it's just a question of how many.
Are they, really?0 -
Plenty of Western nations shelter under the NATO nuclear umbrella, plus most nations cannot develop their own if they are not recognised nuclear powers under the non-proliferation treaty.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, nukes are the ultimate insurance policy.
We'll only ever know if they're really worth it if we find we need them when we don't have them. If IS could use one, they would. And we should have the ability to obliterate ISIS' capital in return, horrific as that would be.
Not to mention we'll have more massive wars in the future. We'll always have nukes, it's just a question of how many.
Given Russia's antics and China's military growth, and our tiny military, I struggle to see how it would enhance our strategic security to ditch them.0 -
Game Theory, The Prisoners Dilemma by Party.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/07/20/game-theory-public/0 -
Bristol East Labour back Burnham & Watson.
Checked their twitter a/c.0 -
Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.0
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Did you try clicking repeatedly on the portcullis logo?
It changes the heading in a most amusing way!RobD said:Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.
0 -
I'd have thought the elderly and veterans are by far the biggest consumers of healthcare. And neither have waiting lists in the US.rcs1000 said:
On a per taxpayer basis, the US government spends more on healthcare than the UK does (Medicare + Medicaid + Veterans).Disraeli said:
A "decent" service. Absolutely! The NHS is very cost-effective in providing that.Sean_F said:
The UK public are prepared to pay 37% or thereabouts of their income to fund public services. It ought to be possible to run decent public services out of that sum.Disraeli said:
That's exactly what I personally want to see - though I can only speak for myself, of course.Cyclefree said:
But aren't we - the patients and the taxpayers - entitled to ask that the service be provided on a 24/7 basis? And work out a sensible way to achieve that?
The limiting factor is our attitudes to public services and their funding. We criticise the Greeks for "wanting their cake and eating it", but when it comes to public services the great UK public wants a Rolls Royce service for the cost of a Renault.
[Edited to remove a Grocer's Apostrophe]
"The NHS – a stunningly cost effective supplier of high quality healthcare"
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/06/06/the-nhs-a-stunningly-cost-effective-supplier-of-high-quality-healthcare/
"Report in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine finds health service second only to Ireland for cost-effectiveness "
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services
"The NHS and USA’s Efficiency and Effectiveness in reducing mortality"
"Cost-Effectiveness ratio: ..., the USA cost-effective ratio was 1: 515 pm deaths, whereas the UK had the second highest ratio at 1: 1490pm, almost three times more cost-effective than the USA, where `private health care’ is the dominant model."
http://www.sochealth.co.uk/links/campaigns/denigration-of-the-nhs/the-nhs-and-the-usas-efficiency-and-effectiveness-in-reducing-mortality/
And that only pays for around 25% of population.0 -
Talking of Cornish cheeses, used to get a very nice one over here in Maryland called Yarg. Not seen it in a while. Do you know if it is still available? I think it was Gray Dairy Farm, hence Yarg.Tissue_Price said:
Welcome aboard. I am finding it a little disconcerting talking to a cheese, though.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
http://www.cheesevine.com/cornish-blue/
Welcome from a fellow, albeit expatriate, Corn.0 -
I think everyone has encountered the teacher/scoutmaster/politician/priest with the wandering hand. And mostly, they're pathetic, rather than dangerous. So, we laughed at them.Casino_Royale said:
Saw an old episode of Drop The Dead Donkey on repeat the other week.Sean_F said:
Geoffrey Dickens was a loudmouth, but he was clearly one of the good guys, when it came to exposing child sex scandals.matt said:
John Mann strikes me as the modern equivalent of a Geoffrey Dickens or Peter Brunievals. ie a less than talented bullshiter who can't resist a microphone, and the media knows it.SimonStClare said:
Labour's feral nature would be more appropriate..!antifrank said:John Mann's intervention tells you everything you need to know about the febrile nature of today's Labour party.
Sometimes the annoying truculent people ar right.
That was a hit BBC sit-com in the 90s. It was making jokes like, 'Girlfriend? Oh no, he prefers little boys!' Guffaw.
Up until fairly recently, this was seen as a joke.0 -
Is this from an album cover? Track "Game Theory", from the album "The Prisoner's Dilemma" by the group "Party"?logical_song said:Game Theory, The Prisoners Dilemma by Party.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/07/20/game-theory-public/0 -
The Swiss and Swedes were during the Cold War, and are today, as secure as they both were with their policy of neutrality during WWII.rcs1000 said:
But that would suggest that - for example - the Swiss, the Swedes or the Spanish are less secure than us.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, nukes are the ultimate insurance policy.
We'll only ever know if they're really worth it if we find we need them when we don't have them. If IS could use one, they would. And we should have the ability to obliterate ISIS' capital in return, horrific as that would be.
Not to mention we'll have more massive wars in the future. We'll always have nukes, it's just a question of how many.
Are they, really?
Nothing's changed. You end up being dominated by the strategic realities of the established international order.0 -
@MTimT Yarg had a meniton on Al beeb the other week.
https://www.lynherdairies.co.uk/our-starring-role-on-bbc-ones-countryfile/0 -
I'm no different or better. I would have laughed uproariously at it back then.Sean_F said:
I think everyone has encountered the teacher/scoutmaster/politician/priest with the wandering hand. And mostly, they're pathetic, rather than dangerous. So, we laughed at them.Casino_Royale said:
Saw an old episode of Drop The Dead Donkey on repeat the other week.Sean_F said:
Geoffrey Dickens was a loudmouth, but he was clearly one of the good guys, when it came to exposing child sex scandals.matt said:
John Mann strikes me as the modern equivalent of a Geoffrey Dickens or Peter Brunievals. ie a less than talented bullshiter who can't resist a microphone, and the media knows it.SimonStClare said:
Labour's feral nature would be more appropriate..!antifrank said:John Mann's intervention tells you everything you need to know about the febrile nature of today's Labour party.
Sometimes the annoying truculent people ar right.
That was a hit BBC sit-com in the 90s. It was making jokes like, 'Girlfriend? Oh no, he prefers little boys!' Guffaw.
Up until fairly recently, this was seen as a joke.
I had no idea how dark, serious, prevalent or deeply sick it still was.0 -
Yarg is wrapped in nettle leaves. It probably doesn't get through US Customs. It certainly wouldn't get into Oz or NZ....MTimT said:
Talking of Cornish cheeses, used to get a very nice one over here in Maryland called Yarg. Not seen it in a while. Do you know if it is still available? I think it was Gray Dairy Farm, hence Yarg.Tissue_Price said:
Welcome aboard. I am finding it a little disconcerting talking to a cheese, though.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
http://www.cheesevine.com/cornish-blue/
Welcome from a fellow, albeit expatriate, Corn.0 -
Maybe that is your browser? It just went back to the petition home page for me.Plato said:Did you try clicking repeatedly on the portcullis logo?
It changes the heading in a most amusing way!RobD said:Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.
0 -
I tried it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Plato said:Did you try clicking repeatedly on the portcullis logo?
It changes the heading in a most amusing way!RobD said:Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.
0 -
Oh, someone's changed it! Spoil sport. It said something like "who thought of this??"RobD said:
Maybe that is your browser? It just went back to the petition home page for me.Plato said:Did you try clicking repeatedly on the portcullis logo?
It changes the heading in a most amusing way!RobD said:Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.
0 -
CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
Agreed and welcome abroad ☺CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
I joined in and got massacred. One lady chipped in with "let's hang on a minute, Labour will never be elected under Corbyn."
She was massacred too.
Yvette Cooper was described as a "vile Tory" who shamed the Labour party by abstaining in the benefits vote.
Like I said, these people are normal. They are actually all nice and regular people with good jobs.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
0 -
Labour should give up trying to persuade the public that it is wrong about the party spending too much before the crash and just “move on”, a left-leaning thinktank said on Thursday.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/23/why-labour-lost-election-what-it-needs-next-smith-institute-study
In a report on why Labour lost the election and what it needs to do next, the Smith Institute said that the party needed to instead develop a different narrative about spending, one that would probably involve “reimagining the state”.0 -
Countries protected under article 5 of NATO should pay us (And the French and the USA I suppose) cash for the cost of the nukes !
Our nukes have a large benefit for Germany and others.0 -
The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud0
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I thought one or two names were widely known.SeanT said:
The pedo scandal at the top of Westminster is, I suspect, enormous. Why do I say that? Because no one knows anything.Cyclefree said:
Why is it dirty? It's a legitimate question to ask: was he told and, if so, what did he do? After all, Labour (Tom Watson, likely Labour Deputy Leader) has not been shy about accusing Tories of turning a blind eye to alleged child abuse by senior Tories. We have seen the results of inaction by those in a position to do something in Rotherham, Rochdale and elsewhere.Slackbladder said:Ouch.. thats dirty fighting.. someone is worried.
Turning a blind eye to criminality doesn't just occur in banks you know. And if people want to present themselves as on the side of the vulnerable then we're entitled to ask questions about what that has meant in practice.
With previous pedo scandals the identities of those implicated have been very quickly known to senior journos, lawyers, etc. Yet a trawl of my usually well informed acquaintances does not produce any confirmed "rumours" - e.g. about the "senior Labour MP". No one is sure.
My reckoning is that there are injunctions and superinjuctions all over the place, that the scandal goes to the heart of all political parties, that it might involve senior figures outside politics (civil service, police, judiciary, armed forces, etc) and that if all was revealed it would dwarf Belgium's Dutroux case which rocked that country to its foundations.
There are, of course, serious allegations that people have been murmured to cover this up. People are scared of being killed if they talk.
I know I sound like Tapestry, but hey. That's my hunch, after just one G&T.
0 -
This is the second time we've heard of this 'demise of Labour' and it again begs the question - if Labour are at end, who is to replace them as the official opposition? UKIP control one council and are a world away of being an organised party with a divisive leader; the LDs have been reduced to a lump of 8 MPs with a leader that may be much more socially conservative than first thought (and how that plays with attracting the centre-left vote is still in question); the SNP are a Scottish party.0
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I tried, but couldn't get it to change. What happens?Plato said:Did you try clicking repeatedly on the portcullis logo?
It changes the heading in a most amusing way!RobD said:Reading a couple of the posts regarding the NHS position. There really should be a way to oppose a petition (I suppose making a new petition with the opposite wording), but a disagree button would be nice.
0 -
And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.0
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You should see Cif, it's out Mailing The Mail at the moment. Anything about Corbyn has become madder than Cybernattery, any suggestion that he won't win in 2020 with a landslide is greeted with calls to have you tarred, feathered and branded with the words 'I love George Osborne' as well as lots of FACTS which are left without context (such as 76% of people didn't vote Tory, etc...) They've even adopted the vocab of the cybernats.CornishBlue said:
I find that the majority of British people have spent very little time (and have no intention of doing so) in getting a good understanding of - essentially - "how the world works" (be that economics, societies, etc). Perfectly nice people, with good careers, etc, as you say become strange animals when discussing politics, especially on social media.Fenster said:I've been reading a long thread on Facebook today, featuring comments from otherwise sane and normal adults, who are all pro-Corbyn.
She was massacred too.
The world is going mad.
(Long-time lurker btw... I've been reading pb.com since it started but now feel I should make a comment or two as I think politics in the UK really is getting interesting! Never mind the rise of UKIP or the SNP - I sense it's the demise of Labour that's the biggie...)
There are probably three reasons why things are going crazy, with each comprising a section of the Corbynites. Firstly there's the fact the hard left never thought they'd get a chance to take over the Labour Party, and they won't take kindly to anyone threatening to spoil their party. Having had to mumble and grumble either from within or in a variety of rag bag outfits, they're relishing giving those who stray from their creed a good kicking. They don't particularly care if Corbyn is totally unelectable - 21% of the vote is better than the sod all they currently get.
Then there's the young, I say this as someone who is basically still that myself but we can be very foolish politically because we lack the folk memories of others. A 22-year-old will have known Tony Blair only as a perma-tanned 'war criminal' not an electoral juggernaut. They'll have spent the entire adolescent/adult life with a moderate Labour being unpopular and so see in Corbyn hope. Mentioning the fact that Labour has had these battles since at least the 1960s or that a milder version of Corbynism was tried and failed in the 1980s is met with a blank stare and 'but..'. See also how Occupy was 'going to change the world'.
Lastly, as you rightly point out very few people understand electoral mechanics and that the electorate doesn't think like their peer group, with most not giving a toss and then voting for whoever is most plausible, and that people aren't suddenly going to acclaim Corbyn because you like him. Therefore they're easily swayed by myths and canards - see also the Green surge.
Being a Labour member is terrifying atm.
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Well, at least they weren't called PB Tory. The absolute worst kind of Tory.The_Apocalypse said:And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.
0 -
Also, considering the Tories are in their honeymoon and Labour are in chaos, 31% is a poor score for Labour but not really a terminally disastrous one.The_Apocalypse said:This is the second time we've heard of this 'demise of Labour' and it again begs the question - if Labour are at end, who is to replace them as the official opposition? UKIP control one council and are a world away of being an organised party with a divisive leader; the LDs have been reduced to a lump of 8 MPs with a leader that may be much more socially conservative than first thought (and how that plays with attracting the centre-left vote is still in question); the SNP are a Scottish party.
0 -
The worst kind of Tories are those who frequent the Mail and the Telegraph website. For all the examples of deluded crazy lefties on CIF, the Telegraph comments' section is a right-wing mirror image of it.RobD said:
Well, at least they weren't called PB Tory. The absolute worst kind of Tory.The_Apocalypse said:And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.
@Danny565 *If* the polls are right then I agree. ICM showed Labour about four points behind some weeks ago, which *if* accurate, isn't too bad either.0 -
Have you tried searching under #innocentface on twitter?..... titterSeanT said:
They are. But I get different names from different people, and none of my informants is sure. Never happened before.philiph said:
I thought one or two names were widely known.SeanT said:
The pedo scandal at the top of Westminster is, I suspect, enormous. Why do I say that? Because no one knows anything.Cyclefree said:
Why is it dirty? It's a legitimate question to ask: was he told and, if so, what did he do? After all, Labour (Tom Watson, likely Labour Deputy Leader) has not been shy about accusing Tories of turning a blind eye to alleged child abuse by senior Tories. We have seen the results of inaction by those in a position to do something in Rotherham, Rochdale and elsewhere.Slackbladder said:Ouch.. thats dirty fighting.. someone is worried.
Turning a blind eye to criminality doesn't just occur in banks you know. And if people want to present themselves as on the side of the vulnerable then we're entitled to ask questions about what that has meant in practice.
With previous pedo scandals the identities of those implicated have been very quickly known to senior journos, lawyers, etc. Yet a trawl of my usually well informed acquaintances does not produce any confirmed "rumours" - e.g. about the "senior Labour MP". No one is sure.
My reckoning is that there are injunctions and superinjuctions all over the place, that the scandal goes to the heart of all political parties, that it might involve senior figures outside politics (civil service, police, judiciary, armed forces, etc) and that if all was revealed it would dwarf Belgium's Dutroux case which rocked that country to its foundations.
There are, of course, serious allegations that people have been murmured to cover this up. People are scared of being killed if they talk.
I know I sound like Tapestry, but hey. That's my hunch, after just one G&T.
It's quite odd. And, as I say, points to a much more determined attempt to keep things quiet, than is normally the case.
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@Blofeld's Cat
My father was a GP. His work patterns and current GP work patterns seem very different (I don't know where you are but in the areas I've lived, chances of a home visit are near to nil). I wonder how much of that is because 50% plus of medical students are female and the all hours working is not much of a draw (far more PT and jobshare as well). There's an assumption that men and women want the same thing out of work. Intellectually that's right for those training as med students but I wonder about, when people are in their 30s and 40s, there's the same enthusasism for the grind. If that's the case the there's a wider sustainability issue around the NHS.
I could be very wrong but I look at the area that I used to work in, private practice city law, and the ratio of men to women outside real estate and pensions (ie those areas with perceived solid 9 - 6).0 -
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party0 -
Whereas Corbyn will not make it to a GE0
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But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be even more unelectable than Corbyn.Freggles said:
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party0 -
Thanks to the opening up of the Soviet archives we know that Joe McCarthy actually underestimated the extent of Soviet infiltration of US institutions and yet McCarthyism remains a smear term for the left today. In fact there is an attempt to rehabilitate those who were blacklisted despite the now very well documented crimes of communism.Speedy said:For those looking for a good read for the evening, a double feature:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/23/trump-s-mobbed-up-mccarthyite-mentor.html
"They met at Le Club, a private disco on the Upper East Side frequented by Jackie Kennedy, Al Pacino, and Diana Ross, according to Trump: The Saga of America’s Most Powerful Real Estate Baron. Donald Trump, the young developer, quickly amassing a fortune in New York real estate and Roy Cohn, America’s most loathed yet socially successful defense attorney who had vaulted to infamy in the 1950s while serving as legal counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/23/how-thatcher-s-mi5-spy-chief-protected-a-pedophile-member-of-parliament.html
"The head of Britain’s MI5 domestic intelligence service told the Thatcher government that a pedophile MP was operating in the House of Commons but suggested a plot to cover up his “penchant for small boys” in order to avoid political embarrassment.
It was a plan the government was only too happy to accept."0 -
Mr. Freggles, you may be underestimating how bad Labour are at coups.
I do think they might make a special effort for Corbyn, but they didn't manage it with Brown and didn't even attempt it against Miliband.0 -
They're Kippers now. Detoxification and 37%.The_Apocalypse said:
The worst kind of Tories are those who frequent the Mail and the Telegraph website. For all the examples of deluded crazy lefties on CIF, the Telegraph comments' section is a right-wing mirror image of it.RobD said:
Well, at least they weren't called PB Tory. The absolute worst kind of Tory.The_Apocalypse said:And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.
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@MJW, I'm 21 and these same young people should also be aware Blair was the same guy who rode to power on a landslide in 1997, and prior to that Labour had been in opposition for 18 years. Young Labour members should be well aware of the wilderness years, they are just people who are so ideologically blind that they'll ignore realism when it stares them in the face. I'm not a fan of Blair for many reasons, but even I agree with @Roger that Blair is head and shoulders above all the party leaders right now, and at this stage Labour would probably be better off getting Blair back, then electing any of their leadership offerings.0
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Nobody knows who Kendall is, might be part of itDanny565 said:
But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be more unelectable than Corbyn.Freggles said:
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party0 -
I've been saying for a while that is looking like the only way out for Labour. Let Corbyn's Comrades see the reality.The_Apocalypse said:And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.
0 -
@SeanT
I suspect it is too. There must have been abuse and cover-up on an epic scale. People like the one who wrote that MI5 memo that simply weighed up the security threat versus political embarassment to the government, with no care at all for the welfare of children, must be objectively evil.0 -
This is the trouble with the Labour party right now. This page:Danny565 said:
But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be even more unelectable than Corbyn.Freggles said:
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Liz-Kendall-for-Conservative-Leader/785674451530108
..isn't far off having as many likes as the official page:
https://www.facebook.com/LabourLiz0 -
Corbyn is just the latest example in a long line of antipolitics candidates.
0 -
They didn't think they had to. Brown was too late for anyone else to fix it and they were well in the lead in 2012-14 under EdMiliband.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Freggles, you may be underestimating how bad Labour are at coups.
I do think they might make a special effort for Corbyn, but they didn't manage it with Brown and didn't even attempt it against Miliband.0 -
Mr. Jonathan, isn't that like electing a pacifist to lead the army?0
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The Tories are in the honeymoon period. They've announced brutal cuts, but public was fully aware cuts were going to happen, and it's an economic policy the public happen to support. The Tories are pretty much setting the political narrative at the moment, and have the press onside. Cameron is the most well-regarded of the leaders. Osborne is seen as a master-strategist, and has probably more power and influence in the Conservative party than he has ever had before. He has a whole power-base of allies throughout the parliamentary party in particular. UKIP have gone from being seen as a threat to the Tory party, to a laughing-stock. Labour currently are nowhere near close to mounting a challenge to the Tories.
That's pretty much a honeymoon.0 -
Items like this seem openly sexist:Casino_Royale said:
This is the trouble with the Labour party right now. This page:Danny565 said:
But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be even more unelectable than Corbyn.Freggles said:
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Liz-Kendall-for-Conservative-Leader/785674451530108
..isn't far off having as many likes as the official page:
https://www.facebook.com/LabourLiz
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10860830_10204581875928738_7684413100096387788_o.jpg0 -
Mr. T, who's Grant?
Mr. EPG, they had time to do Brown in, but Miliband (David) and perhaps others bottled it.
They had a false tilt at Miliband in 2014, but they'd left it too late.0 -
He's the latest FU to the established order. A red Farage.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, isn't that like electing a pacifist to lead the army?
0 -
That would literally be the case were he PMMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, isn't that like electing a pacifist to lead the army?
0 -
One day the people of this country will come to realize how disgusting our leaders and intelligence services really are.JEO said:@SeanT
I suspect it is too. There must have been abuse and cover-up on an epic scale. People like the one who wrote that MI5 memo that simply weighed up the security threat versus political embarassment to the government, with no care at all for the welfare of children, must be objectively evil.
The fact this site banned Socrates is particularly shameful.0 -
Especially those well known commie spies: Charlie Chaplin, Orson Wells and Zero Mostel.FalseFlag said:
Thanks to the opening up of the Soviet archives we know that Joe McCarthy actually underestimated the extent of Soviet infiltration of US institutions and yet McCarthyism remains a smear term for the left today. In fact there is an attempt to rehabilitate those who were blacklisted despite the now very well documented crimes of communism.Speedy said:For those looking for a good read for the evening, a double feature:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/23/trump-s-mobbed-up-mccarthyite-mentor.html
"They met at Le Club, a private disco on the Upper East Side frequented by Jackie Kennedy, Al Pacino, and Diana Ross, according to Trump: The Saga of America’s Most Powerful Real Estate Baron. Donald Trump, the young developer, quickly amassing a fortune in New York real estate and Roy Cohn, America’s most loathed yet socially successful defense attorney who had vaulted to infamy in the 1950s while serving as legal counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/23/how-thatcher-s-mi5-spy-chief-protected-a-pedophile-member-of-parliament.html
"The head of Britain’s MI5 domestic intelligence service told the Thatcher government that a pedophile MP was operating in the House of Commons but suggested a plot to cover up his “penchant for small boys” in order to avoid political embarrassment.
It was a plan the government was only too happy to accept."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YOIueFbG4g0 -
Given that under FPTP, with Duverger's Law, only two parties will realistically be able to offer to lead a Government, and one is currently in Government ... Labour seem intent on abdicating their responsibility to be a credible alternative Government.
But they're still hogging the second seat out of the two, preventing any other altermative credible Government.
So ... if Labour are truly intent on indulging their ideological pleasure at the cost of providing a credible alternative, would they mind terribly vacating that seat? Their are others who'd like a go, if they're no longer interested.0 -
What's hilarious is how there are still some people who after seeing the evidence of the 1980s, still want to opt for this agenda. What's more amusing, is how many activists and members appear to not really care about Labour actually getting elected. They don't appear to understand that an electable, credible Labour party, is one that is an effective opposition by default. I think a large amount of them should quit this whole 'party-politics' thing, and join a pressure-group. They don't appear to be in the business of wanting to help change people's lives for the better.MarqueeMark said:
I've been saying for a while that is looking like the only way out for Labour. Let Corbyn's Comrades see the reality.The_Apocalypse said:And if people think Yvette Cooper is a 'Tory', then well....there are words I'd use, expletives even to describe them. At this stage anyone who isn't hard-left to some of these people is a 'tory'. Maybe we should let them have their Corbyn leadership. These idiots can then be forced to see their own idiocy.
0 -
The SNP?Andy_Cooke said:Given that under FPTP, with Duverger's Law, only two parties will realistically be able to offer to lead a Government, and one is currently in Government ... Labour seem intent on abdicating their responsibility to be a credible alternative Government.
But they're still hogging the second seat out of the two, preventing any other altermative credible Government.
So ... if Labour are truly intent on indulging their ideological pleasure at the cost of providing a credible alternative, would they mind terribly vacating that seat? Their are others who'd like a go, if they're no longer interested.
0 -
Mr. Cooke, might be a good situation for the Lib Dems. Farage's hokey-cokey will not help him win over new supporters.
That said, Farron's irksome.0 -
Scottish and Northern Party.Jonathan said:
The SNP?Andy_Cooke said:Given that under FPTP, with Duverger's Law, only two parties will realistically be able to offer to lead a Government, and one is currently in Government ... Labour seem intent on abdicating their responsibility to be a credible alternative Government.
But they're still hogging the second seat out of the two, preventing any other altermative credible Government.
So ... if Labour are truly intent on indulging their ideological pleasure at the cost of providing a credible alternative, would they mind terribly vacating that seat? Their are others who'd like a go, if they're no longer interested.0 -
Ha. Quite!Andy_Cooke said:Given that under FPTP, with Duverger's Law, only two parties will realistically be able to offer to lead a Government, and one is currently in Government ... Labour seem intent on abdicating their responsibility to be a credible alternative Government.
But they're still hogging the second seat out of the two, preventing any other altermative credible Government.
So ... if Labour are truly intent on indulging their ideological pleasure at the cost of providing a credible alternative, would they mind terribly vacating that seat? Their are others who'd like a go, if they're no longer interested.0 -
She actually looks quite good with that blue rosette.JEO said:
Items like this seem openly sexist:Casino_Royale said:
This is the trouble with the Labour party right now. This page:Danny565 said:
But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be even more unelectable than Corbyn.Freggles said:
I am thinking of votingPulpstar said:
Corbyn will sort that out.Freggles said:The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham
On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Liz-Kendall-for-Conservative-Leader/785674451530108
..isn't far off having as many likes as the official page:
https://www.facebook.com/LabourLiz
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10860830_10204581875928738_7684413100096387788_o.jpg0
