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Andy Burnham: A New Hope? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,266
edited 8:24AM in General
Andy Burnham: A New Hope? – politicalbetting.com

How do Brits say they feel about Andy Burnham becoming Prime Minister. The top word is hopeful, followed by good and optimistic, though others aren't sure or are indifferent. A smaller number say worried.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,656
    First?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    QTWTAIN.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,237
    Sandpit said:

    QTWTAIN.

    He can be (and seems to be, based on this) a new hope. Doesn't mean that hope is well-founded.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781
    Autocorrect again?

    Andy Burnham: A no hoper?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,237
    Personally, I wish Truss had been called Hope. Then this headline would have a whole different meaning!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,894
    I concur with those key words

    Teetering between Green and KON Party
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,237

    I concur with those key words

    Teetering between Green and KON Party

    KON? Is there a new Keir or No-one party?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,631

    I concur with those key words

    Teetering between Green and KON Party

    All political parties con you. Which particular con did you have an inclination to fall for?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,631
    kinabalu said:

    I'm simultaneously dubious and hopeful. Unless you're a partisan of another party or a confirmed grinch it makes no sense to get disappointed with Burnham before he's had the chance to actually be disappointing.

    I think that is what I was trying to say but you said it better.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face.

    ...

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,567
    Selebian said:

    I concur with those key words

    Teetering between Green and KON Party

    KON? Is there a new Keir or No-one party?
    Keep your Own Party - every party member is, in fact, an individual party.

    This harnesses the inherent factionalism on the hard left. Since everyone has already split from everyone else, no splits are possible.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,631

    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face.

    ...

    Sponge bob Squarepants is an essential part of every child's and most adult's education. You can learn so much from it. It was deeply frustrating when my kids thought they were too old for it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    Any reason for choosing the archaic spelling of wagon ?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,638
    edited 8:42AM
    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,917
    Selebian said:

    Sandpit said:

    QTWTAIN.

    He can be (and seems to be, based on this) a new hope. Doesn't mean that hope is well-founded.
    Hope is odd. I don't think such hope as the UK possessed in 1940 was well founded but without it I don't think we would have got very far.

    There are some limited foundations for Burnham hope.

    1) A glass half full is much better than a glass half empty. Burnham does generalised uplift quite well.
    2) Reform have peaked.
    3) Most people in the UK are actually doing OK; this is almost totally unreported story
    4) The anti Labour media will find Burnham a hard target compared with Starmer, Corbyn or Miliband (E), all of whom were easy pickings. Burnham's personality is such that the middling sort and the WWC would rather like him than not.
    5) Despite the talk he is a continuation social democrat in the 1945 model. It's not perfect but people like it. He isn't a socialist, a Marxist or a libertarian.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Remarkable litotes, TSE.

    ..That said Andy Burnham currently has much better political antennae and communication skills than Gordon Brown.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face...

    .. yet.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,274
    FF43 said:

    I like two things about Andy Burnham.

    He seems a cheerful chappy, which is a nice change from the dreary Starmer and the "be nasty to everyone else" philosophy of Farage and acolytes.

    He has some notion of the longer term, unlike everyone else in politics. Maybe his plans won't survive contact with the reality but at least he's going through the motions.

    I tend to associate the phrase 'going through the motions' with a dog owner going through his pooch's pooh after it has naughtily swallowed their engagement ring. I suppose a clumsy analogy could be made with Andy and his search for the ring of power.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face.

    ...

    Sponge bob Squarepants is an essential part of every child's and most adult's education. You can learn so much from it. It was deeply frustrating when my kids thought they were too old for it.
    Can relate, feel the same about Paw Patrol too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    Laura Loomer’s full interview with Zelensky:

    https://x.com/lauraloomer/status/2080657818466586812 - 45 minutes.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,543
    But what will Andy do when the empire strikes back?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942

    But what will Andy do when the empire strikes back?

    Yay, somebody spotted my subtle Star Wars reference.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,856
    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    Nigelb said:

    Remarkable litotes, TSE.

    ..That said Andy Burnham currently has much better political antennae and communication skills than Gordon Brown.

    I know but then again 29% at the next general election could lead to a Labour landslide.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,856
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face...

    .. yet.
    Well yes. He will certainly have to start taking decisions which people fall on the wrong side of. But he doesn't have the same anti-charisma that Starmer does which makes people start out hating him.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,682
    kinabalu said:

    I'm simultaneously dubious and hopeful. Unless you're a partisan of another party or a confirmed grinch it makes no sense to get disappointed with Burnham before he's had the chance to actually be disappointing.

    I’ve got to work on my expectations. I’ve been calling for a cut to VAT on electricity for ages and Burnham’s actually gone and done it.

    Sure, standing charges remain and we still have ludicrous levels of tax on industrial electricity. We still have the stupid mileage charge on EVs coming in. But it’s a step in the right direction.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Sandpit said:

    Laura Loomer’s full interview with Zelensky:

    https://x.com/lauraloomer/status/2080657818466586812 - 45 minutes.

    FPT
    Zelensky would sit with Nosferatu for an interview if it helped Ukraine. It's his biggest quality and why he's still president.
    https://x.com/justincbzz/status/2080686880635420980
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,102
    FF43 said:

    I like two things about Andy Burnham.

    He seems a cheerful chappy, which is a nice change from the dreary Starmer and the "be nasty to everyone else" philosophy of Farage and acolytes.

    He has some notion of the longer term, unlike everyone else in politics. Maybe his plans won't survive contact with the reality but at least he's going through the motions.

    Relevant article from Kieran Pedley

    Voters are pessimistic about how well Burnham will do because they are in a pessimistic mood anyway. Also Burnham has a vested interest in the long term because he wants to last longer than other recent prime ministers.

    https://www.politicshome.com/opinion/article/tone-of-burnham-first-week-met-voters-where-they-are
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    edited 8:59AM
    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,917
    edited 9:00AM
    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    The reluctance to take hard decisions - and to be seen to be taking them - seems universal in politics. It will be interesting to see if Burnham decides to to take the risk of abandoning that 'avoidance' model. It's possible the voting public have had enough of the avoidance route.

    One critical test is coming up. Burnham has promised a 10 year plan 'later this year'. If Burnham is Starmer we will get meaningless waffle in 2028 which will be instantly reversed. So we will know if it doesn't happen in 2026.

    If it does happen, we will have a decent idea of how he approaches hard decisions. Take social care: Starmer almost immediately kicked it into the very long grass (review and action by 2034 IIRC). Burnham has made it a central policy and action plank. The last time someone did that was T May in 2017 and it nearly won Corbyn the election.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,856
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face...

    .. yet.
    Well yes. He will certainly have to start taking decisions which people fall on the wrong side of. But he doesn't have the same anti-charisma that Starmer does which makes people start out hating him.
    Spot the Keir Starmer character:
    https://youtu.be/RLm-ttIoUnc?si=yPL3B5O8hq33fhDb
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,884

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    It's now subscriber content. Seriously, they expect people to pay to read that?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    Who was the other Burnham ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,656
    edited 9:03AM

    But what will Andy do when the empire strikes back?

    Yay, somebody spotted my subtle Star Wars reference.
    But will there be a Return of theJezza?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,884
    Nigelb said:

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    Who was the other Burnham ?
    The Corbynite one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    It's now subscriber content. Seriously, they expect people to pay to read that?
    Yes, it's the the only reason I subscribe to The New Statesman.

    Whenever I make a bad prediction I remind myself that Sion Simon piece still exists.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,656
    Nigelb said:

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    Who was the other Burnham ?
    Michael.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,462
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Think you've underestimated the cost.
    MOD and Defence contractors pay derisory salaries, always have done
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,856
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
    When Brown was PM, their was a vote on parliament: the government position was that Lisbon should br ratified, the Tory amendment was, I think, that there should be a referendum. There were enough Labour Eurosceptics that Lib Dems going with their stated policy position of 'there should be a referendum' would have resulted in a referendum. Knowing this, Ed Davey led a contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs, nominally in protest that actually there should be a referendum on British EU membership per se (yes, really). It didn't need the coalition to be in power - it was one of the rare occasions where oppositiom could have forced a position.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Doing his bit for the unemployment rate. (What do Social Producers do? Produce socialism? Whatever they do, they're clearly much more valuable than mere Cyber Security workers.)
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715
    I don't know how I feel about Mr Burnham as PM. Possibly my feeling of cynicism is generated merely by the number of PMs we've had recently. Certainly I wish him very well and every success in the role. That might equal hopefulness.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Doing his bit for the unemployment rate. (What do Social Producers do? Produce socialism? Whatever they do, they're clearly much more valuable than mere Cyber Security workers.)
    There’s derisory, and derisory.

    Precisely no-one qualified to be a senior cyber security guy in the MoD’s nuclear department, is getting out of bed for £47k a year even with a nice pension.

    Most decent people in the private sector will be on at least double that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Twitter getting bothered by the new logo.
    https://x.com/aswren/status/2080644253269528954

    There are claims that the 0 in No10 has got wonkier over the years, but checking old stock photos, that's not the case.
    https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/60s-sixties-downing-street.html?sortBy=relevant
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,679
    FF43 said:

    I like two things about Andy Burnham.

    He seems a cheerful chappy, which is a nice change from the dreary Starmer and the "be nasty to everyone else" philosophy of Farage and acolytes.

    He has some notion of the longer term, unlike everyone else in politics. Maybe his plans won't survive contact with the reality but at least he's going through the motions.

    So far he has surprised me on the upside, but there was plenty of room for that.

    Ask me again in six months time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,274
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Laura Loomer’s full interview with Zelensky:

    https://x.com/lauraloomer/status/2080657818466586812 - 45 minutes.

    FPT
    Zelensky would sit with Nosferatu for an interview if it helped Ukraine. It's his biggest quality and why he's still president.
    https://x.com/justincbzz/status/2080686880635420980
    I'm sure Zeklensky is supping with a long spoon, but these ghouls never do anything out of principle or altruism.


    Dave Troy
    @davetroy
    A warning regarding Ukraine developments: There is an odious group, the "Ukraine Reconstruction Summit" (URS) network, centered on Brock Pierce, Trump "spiritual advisor" Pastor Mark Burns, the AllatRa cult, Rabbi Moshe Azman, Yaakov Flitchkin, and several others.

    This group has positioned themselves to profit from Ukraine "post-war" and held a major conference in Washington DC last September. This is the same network of people who funded the "Don Colossus" gold statue of Trump at his Doral Club.

    Loomer met with Rabbi Azman yesterday. Brock Pierce is building a replica of a "school" building in DC in Anatevka, near Kyiv, with this group. Be very cautious when trying to assess motives and relationships when evaluating this network. It's not about victory for Ukraine — it's about accruing future power.

    https://x.com/davetroy/status/2080660964068692326?s=20
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715

    Battlebus said:

    Typically the 'new guy'* gets 100 days so no clear direction in the polls until 28th October.

    * AB and many of his appointments are New Labour retreads.


    From the 2007 article I linked to in the header.

    The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.
    It's now subscriber content. Seriously, they expect people to pay to read that?
    They've found it's such a timeless gem, people return to it for a laugh when they're down. Maybe they sell season ticket type deals.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,821
    kinabalu said:



    I don't know why anybody would opt for anything other than a red Golf GTI auto with a 'sports' mode that you can click into and make the engine rev louder.

    I do like a GTI. I reckon I've had over 20 of them.

    Mk.7 > Mk.1 > Mk.5 > Mk.2 > Mk.8 > Mk.6 > Mk.3 > Mk.4

    This discussion is now closed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
    When Brown was PM, their was a vote on parliament: the government position was that Lisbon should br ratified, the Tory amendment was, I think, that there should be a referendum. There were enough Labour Eurosceptics that Lib Dems going with their stated policy position of 'there should be a referendum' would have resulted in a referendum. Knowing this, Ed Davey led a contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs, nominally in protest that actually there should be a referendum on British EU membership per se (yes, really). It didn't need the coalition to be in power - it was one of the rare occasions where oppositiom could have forced a position.
    I'd forgotten that bit of history.
    How much effort was made to get the LibDems on side in advance ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,829
    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    His obsession with Manchester and thinking that is the NORTH will be his undoing. Tesco cannot be run like a cornershop.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,150
    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Doing his bit for the unemployment rate. (What do Social Producers do? Produce socialism? Whatever they do, they're clearly much more valuable than mere Cyber Security workers.)
    There’s derisory, and derisory.

    Precisely no-one qualified to be a senior cyber security guy in the MoD’s nuclear department, is getting out of bed for £47k a year even with a nice pension.

    Most decent people in the private sector will be on at least double that.
    Not quite no one.
    It seems designed to attract either hyper patriots or would be foreign agents.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,274
    Bloody hell, back to the beginnings of aerial warfare on the western front. Pretty good marksmanship in any case.

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
    Remarkable onboard footage from a Ukrainian Yak-52 backseat gunner shooting down Russian Shahed attack drones from an open cockpit with his rifle.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2080843279835201705?s=20
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,829
    Eabhal said:


    kinabalu said:

    I'm simultaneously dubious and hopeful. Unless you're a partisan of another party or a confirmed grinch it makes no sense to get disappointed with Burnham before he's had the chance to actually be disappointing.

    I’ve got to work on my expectations. I’ve been calling for a cut to VAT on electricity for ages and Burnham’s actually gone and done it.

    Sure, standing charges remain and we still have ludicrous levels of tax on industrial electricity. We still have the stupid mileage charge on EVs coming in. But it’s a step in the right direction.
    nothing more than a fig leaf for idiots
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,749
    What the polls this week are showing is that any Burnham bounce is from squeezing the LDs and Greens. The Reform vote is little changed and the Conservative vote is little changed. It looks like the Burnham bounce is certainly less than the Brown bounce in 2007 and less than the Johnson bounce in 2019 too. Burnham is more charismatic than Starmer but also more leftwing so his many impact is a more unified left behind Labour
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,385
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    The reluctance to take hard decisions - and to be seen to be taking them - seems universal in politics. It will be interesting to see if Burnham decides to to take the risk of abandoning that 'avoidance' model. It's possible the voting public have had enough of the avoidance route.

    One critical test is coming up. Burnham has promised a 10 year plan 'later this year'. If Burnham is Starmer we will get meaningless waffle in 2028 which will be instantly reversed. So we will know if it doesn't happen in 2026.

    If it does happen, we will have a decent idea of how he approaches hard decisions. Take social care: Starmer almost immediately kicked it into the very long grass (review and action by 2034 IIRC). Burnham has made it a central policy and action plank. The last time someone did that was T May in 2017 and it nearly won Corbyn the election.

    I am sceptical of Burnham and Manchesterism. It seems to me from afar to be a couple of things nicked from London and a couple of hasty retreats on affordable housing and clean air zones when the going got even a little choppy. London, for me, has the better Mayor.

    But on reflection, maybe Burnham really is the messiah, and that rather than caving in the face of opposition, he pragmatically retreated in order to get shovels in the ground. Maybe it is better to get a compromise built rather than fight on and risk getting none of his pure vision enacted.

    That said, funnelling George Osborne's money to a single property developer still does not look very hard and to a cynic, looks suspicious even if it isn't. Stuffing the Cabinet with ministers from his own regional powerbase, as well as basing his northern outpost there also leaves a sour taste. Likewise sacking any ministers who did not try to oust the discredited Starmer.

    Pragmatist or weathervane? Let's hope the former.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781

    Nigelb said:

    Remarkable litotes, TSE.

    ..That said Andy Burnham currently has much better political antennae and communication skills than Gordon Brown.

    I know but then again 29% at the next general election could lead to a Labour landslide.
    If Badenoch went full frontal One Nation Tory, dispensed with all the Reform racism- based rubbish, disposed of all the old- guard scumbags like Michael Green and called the party the New Conservatives she would be on 45%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,035
    Alexa, explain "inconvenient truths" to mexicanpete....

    It is hugely amusing that the LibDems so facilitated the Brexit they claim to so hate...

    Or mybe Nick Clegg was just a dumb twat?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    His obsession with Manchester and thinking that is the NORTH will be his undoing. Tesco cannot be run like a cornershop.
    If he's recruiting 13 social media team leads the size of the team itself must be gigantic, so clearly he's establishing a social media presence, shall we say.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    His obsession with Manchester and thinking that is the NORTH will be his undoing. Tesco cannot be run like a cornershop.
    Tesco Metros are corner shops.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,900
    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face.

    Am I the only person who finds his voice almost unbearable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781

    Alexa, explain "inconvenient truths" to mexicanpete....

    It is hugely amusing that the LibDems so facilitated the Brexit they claim to so hate...

    Or mybe Nick Clegg was just a dumb twat?

    Alexa, explain what a post by someone who has tied their blue scarf too tightly around their neck would look like.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,743
    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Doing his bit for the unemployment rate. (What do Social Producers do? Produce socialism? Whatever they do, they're clearly much more valuable than mere Cyber Security workers.)
    There’s derisory, and derisory.

    Precisely no-one qualified to be a senior cyber security guy in the MoD’s nuclear department, is getting out of bed for £47k a year even with a nice pension.

    Most decent people in the private sector will be on at least double that.
    It’s the 20 year old problem - the civil service doesn’t have a pay system that would pay anyone in IT a wage that reflects the market value of those skills (even when you take the pension into account)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942
    This is why I could never vote Labour.

    As a frequent user of the Sheffield to St Pancras service, travelling in first class makes it bearable.

    South Yorkshire's Mayor Oliver Coppard, has called on East Midlands Railway (EMR) to temporarily scrap First Class designations, opening up all carriages to passengers equally, so no one is left standing in overcrowded trains while seats remain unused.

    The call comes after EMR announced significant service reductions on routes linking Sheffield with the East Midlands and London, following ongoing reliability and maintenance problems impacting its train fleet. The disruption has led to cancelled services, shorter trains and increased chance of overcrowding for passengers travelling into and out of South Yorkshire.

    https://www.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/news/article/mayor-emr-call-to-declassify
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,035

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704

    Bloody hell, back to the beginnings of aerial warfare on the western front. Pretty good marksmanship in any case.

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
    Remarkable onboard footage from a Ukrainian Yak-52 backseat gunner shooting down Russian Shahed attack drones from an open cockpit with his rifle.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2080843279835201705?s=20

    Yep, private pilots in Ukraine are helping out with the war effort.

    A small plane with a gunner hanging out of the window has proven surprisingly efffective at taking out enemy drones.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,703
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
    When Brown was PM, their was a vote on parliament: the government position was that Lisbon should br ratified, the Tory amendment was, I think, that there should be a referendum. There were enough Labour Eurosceptics that Lib Dems going with their stated policy position of 'there should be a referendum' would have resulted in a referendum. Knowing this, Ed Davey led a contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs, nominally in protest that actually there should be a referendum on British EU membership per se (yes, really). It didn't need the coalition to be in power - it was one of the rare occasions where oppositiom could have forced a position.
    Davey wasn't LibDem Leader then; he was quite a way away from it as I recall (Kennedy, Clegg, Farron, Swinson wee in front of him IIRC. ) Would he really have had that amount of power back then?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    No, the right to end your life should be solely down to medical reasons not financial ones otherwise poor people will choose to end their lives.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,461

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    The NHS doesn't charge one for "daily living costs" like laundry if in hospital so this will not quite operate on the NHS principle.

    But at least it is a start.

    Something has to be done - sounds like Burnham is serious.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,035

    Alexa, explain "inconvenient truths" to mexicanpete....

    It is hugely amusing that the LibDems so facilitated the Brexit they claim to so hate...

    Or mybe Nick Clegg was just a dumb twat?

    Alexa, explain what a post by someone who has tied their blue scarf too tightly around their neck would look like.
    So you want to go in to bat to argue that Nick Clegg wasn't just a dumb twat?

    Knock yourself out....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    Isn't Burnham something of a Roman Catholic fundamentalist?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,482

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    Smart politics- dangle the offer first, without showing the price tag. Smarter politics- leaving the really difficult bit to Louise Casey.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,035

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    No, the right to end your life should be solely down to medical reasons not financial ones otherwise poor people will choose to end their lives.
    Whereas rich ones can go to Switzerland.

    There is no justice in forcing poor people to accept many years of pain that the rich can avoid.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,856
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
    When Brown was PM, their was a vote on parliament: the government position was that Lisbon should br ratified, the Tory amendment was, I think, that there should be a referendum. There were enough Labour Eurosceptics that Lib Dems going with their stated policy position of 'there should be a referendum' would have resulted in a referendum. Knowing this, Ed Davey led a contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs, nominally in protest that actually there should be a referendum on British EU membership per se (yes, really). It didn't need the coalition to be in power - it was one of the rare occasions where oppositiom could have forced a position.
    I'd forgotten that bit of history.
    How much effort was made to get the LibDems on side in advance ?
    I honestly don't know. But pb was up and running at the time. Perhaps a techier man than me could dig out the relevant thread.
    (On which note: life is going to be impossible for the historians of the future. There is just too much source material.)
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715
    Nigelb said:

    Twitter getting bothered by the new logo.
    https://x.com/aswren/status/2080644253269528954

    There are claims that the 0 in No10 has got wonkier over the years, but checking old stock photos, that's not the case.
    https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/60s-sixties-downing-street.html?sortBy=relevant

    There's a door on my way to work which has the number 8 fixed on upside-down. I always feel uncomfortable when I notice it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MoD Cyber Security Lead, Nuclear Propulsion - £47,600pa

    Lead Social Producer, Cabinet Office (x3) - £68,500pa

    https://x.com/krxsctr/status/2080662162263929111

    Oh hang on, it’s not three of them, it’s THIRTEEN of them in “No.10 North” social media team.

    Total salary and pensions £900k per year.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485
    Doing his bit for the unemployment rate. (What do Social Producers do? Produce socialism? Whatever they do, they're clearly much more valuable than mere Cyber Security workers.)
    There’s derisory, and derisory.

    Precisely no-one qualified to be a senior cyber security guy in the MoD’s nuclear department, is getting out of bed for £47k a year even with a nice pension.

    Most decent people in the private sector will be on at least double that.
    Not quite no one.
    It seems designed to attract either hyper patriots or would be foreign agents.
    All I can think of, is that there’s similar roles on the military side that pay similar money, so people transferring from military to civilian roles, already holding the clearances and qualifications required, don’t see a salary drop.

    Otherwise, as you suggest, it would be a great opportunity for Russia, China, Iran etc
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,942

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    Isn't Burnham something of a Roman Catholic fundamentalist?
    No.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    It's interesting: the electorate seems to have no expectation that things will get better under Burnham but be happy that he's there. My interpretation is that people are just enjoying having a PM that they don't want to punch in the face.

    Am I the only person who finds his voice almost unbearable.
    I think an Oasis Scouser trumps nasal Starmer everyday of the week.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,638

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Laura Loomer’s full interview with Zelensky:

    https://x.com/lauraloomer/status/2080657818466586812 - 45 minutes.

    FPT
    Zelensky would sit with Nosferatu for an interview if it helped Ukraine. It's his biggest quality and why he's still president.
    https://x.com/justincbzz/status/2080686880635420980
    I'm sure Zeklensky is supping with a long spoon, but these ghouls never do anything out of principle or altruism.


    Dave Troy
    @davetroy
    A warning regarding Ukraine developments: There is an odious group, the "Ukraine Reconstruction Summit" (URS) network, centered on Brock Pierce, Trump "spiritual advisor" Pastor Mark Burns, the AllatRa cult, Rabbi Moshe Azman, Yaakov Flitchkin, and several others.

    This group has positioned themselves to profit from Ukraine "post-war" and held a major conference in Washington DC last September. This is the same network of people who funded the "Don Colossus" gold statue of Trump at his Doral Club.

    Loomer met with Rabbi Azman yesterday. Brock Pierce is building a replica of a "school" building in DC in Anatevka, near Kyiv, with this group. Be very cautious when trying to assess motives and relationships when evaluating this network. It's not about victory for Ukraine — it's about accruing future power.

    https://x.com/davetroy/status/2080660964068692326?s=20
    America appears to be waging economic war on countries that have assets that Vulture Capitalists/Oligarchs can exploit. This is dressed up in excuses like nuclear weapons or having the wrong sort of (not american) doctrine.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Caught the start of Newsnight ,and Nick sodding Clegg is lecturing others about sanctimony.

    He's been popping up a bit recently.

    Tell me he's not planning a return to frontline politics some way or other?
    His coalition was one if the best periods of government in recent decades. Maybe I am in a minority of one, but I think he put the country ahead of his party and himself and should be given credit for that. I would give him a knighthood.
    It's a view. It's also a view that his refusing to discuss our membership of the EU during the Coalition resulted in Brexit.

    If Clegg and Cameron had gone into the rose garden early in the Colition and called a Referendum - recommendeding staying in - it would have been won c.60:40.

    Thank you, Nick Clegg.
    Alexa, explain "gaslighting" to me.
    To be fair, Clegg had called for an In/Out referendum on the EU. It was his 'reasoning' for abstaining on the Lisbon referendum when his party's manifesto had committed them to supporting one.

    Good morning, everyone.
    Imagine a world where we'd had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We could have arrived at a world where there was a happy consensus on Europe - this far but no further. The great missed opportunity of British politics. All because the Lib Dems could not let a manifesto promise or a vague commitment to democracy outweigh their knee-jerk desire for all things Europe.
    I don't disagree, in principle, but the Lisbon treaty was already ratified by 2010.
    How would that have worked ?
    When Brown was PM, their was a vote on parliament: the government position was that Lisbon should br ratified, the Tory amendment was, I think, that there should be a referendum. There were enough Labour Eurosceptics that Lib Dems going with their stated policy position of 'there should be a referendum' would have resulted in a referendum. Knowing this, Ed Davey led a contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs, nominally in protest that actually there should be a referendum on British EU membership per se (yes, really). It didn't need the coalition to be in power - it was one of the rare occasions where oppositiom could have forced a position.
    I'd forgotten that bit of history.
    How much effort was made to get the LibDems on side in advance ?
    I honestly don't know. But pb was up and running at the time. Perhaps a techier man than me could dig out the relevant thread.
    (On which note: life is going to be impossible for the historians of the future. There is just too much source material.)
    From what I recall of the effort needed to ensure that digital records remain accessible as technology changes, it may not work out quite like that.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,715

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    No, the right to end your life should be solely down to medical reasons not financial ones otherwise poor people will choose to end their lives.
    More likely that poor people won't be able to afford to stay alive.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,781

    Alexa, explain "inconvenient truths" to mexicanpete....

    It is hugely amusing that the LibDems so facilitated the Brexit they claim to so hate...

    Or mybe Nick Clegg was just a dumb twat?

    Alexa, explain what a post by someone who has tied their blue scarf too tightly around their neck would look like.
    So you want to go in to bat to argue that Nick Clegg wasn't just a dumb twat?

    Knock yourself out....
    His period in Government, it could be argued, was the most effective in the modern era, save for austerity. Oh wait, you are right, you have me bang to rights there...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    AnneJGP said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    His obsession with Manchester and thinking that is the NORTH will be his undoing. Tesco cannot be run like a cornershop.
    If he's recruiting 13 social media team leads the size of the team itself must be gigantic, so clearly he's establishing a social media presence, shall we say.
    13 is the whole “No.10 North” social media team.

    https://x.com/yarwoodwilliam/status/2080653938324365485

    The problem is that these roles appear to be all that they are recruiting in Manchester, which gives the impression that the whole project is nothing but spin over substance. I’m sure the substantive roles will come later, once they’ve worked out who will and won’t move from London, but it comes across terribly.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,917

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    The reluctance to take hard decisions - and to be seen to be taking them - seems universal in politics. It will be interesting to see if Burnham decides to to take the risk of abandoning that 'avoidance' model. It's possible the voting public have had enough of the avoidance route.

    One critical test is coming up. Burnham has promised a 10 year plan 'later this year'. If Burnham is Starmer we will get meaningless waffle in 2028 which will be instantly reversed. So we will know if it doesn't happen in 2026.

    If it does happen, we will have a decent idea of how he approaches hard decisions. Take social care: Starmer almost immediately kicked it into the very long grass (review and action by 2034 IIRC). Burnham has made it a central policy and action plank. The last time someone did that was T May in 2017 and it nearly won Corbyn the election.

    I am sceptical of Burnham and Manchesterism. It seems to me from afar to be a couple of things nicked from London and a couple of hasty retreats on affordable housing and clean air zones when the going got even a little choppy. London, for me, has the better Mayor.

    But on reflection, maybe Burnham really is the messiah, and that rather than caving in the face of opposition, he pragmatically retreated in order to get shovels in the ground. Maybe it is better to get a compromise built rather than fight on and risk getting none of his pure vision enacted.

    That said, funnelling George Osborne's money to a single property developer still does not look very hard and to a cynic, looks suspicious even if it isn't. Stuffing the Cabinet with ministers from his own regional powerbase, as well as basing his northern outpost there also leaves a sour taste. Likewise sacking any ministers who did not try to oust the discredited Starmer.

    Pragmatist or weathervane? Let's hope the former.
    Thanks. Two points. No-one has indicated what sort of cabinet Burnham could have constructed which would have been immune from criticism, ideally balanced, and made all the aspirants to top positions happy. That's just politics. Move on.

    As to the northern emphasis in appointments, this comes to mind. Until last week I never noticed anyone commenting on the geographical composition of the top government posts. I suspect that Londoncentricity is so taken for granted that any derogation is astonishing.

    There's another point about the north (and the midlands). And it's called Reform. In much of England the Reform threat is to what were generally safe Tory seats. These make little difference to Labour's efforts to get to 325+ in 2029. But in the north, take Cumbria as a simple example. Historically Cumbria is a mix of Tory, Lab and LD MPs. But, ignoring Farron's safe LD seat, all the rest are currently Labour, previously they were all Tory in 2019, and all projected to go Reform next time. Labour could lose the next election by losing the north alone. Burnham is rightly working on this.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704
    AnneJGP said:

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    If you are going to inflict huge costs of tens of thousands for care, then I would suggest you need to facilitate rights to end your life first.
    No, the right to end your life should be solely down to medical reasons not financial ones otherwise poor people will choose to end their lives.
    More likely that poor people won't be able to afford to stay alive.
    There are some horror stories out of Canada when it comes to what they call MAID.

    Doctors push it hard to save their NHS money.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 878
    Eabhal said:


    kinabalu said:

    I'm simultaneously dubious and hopeful. Unless you're a partisan of another party or a confirmed grinch it makes no sense to get disappointed with Burnham before he's had the chance to actually be disappointing.

    I’ve got to work on my expectations. I’ve been calling for a cut to VAT on electricity for ages and Burnham’s actually gone and done it.

    Sure, standing charges remain and we still have ludicrous levels of tax on industrial electricity. We still have the stupid mileage charge on EVs coming in. But it’s a step in the right direction.
    Definitely seeing a lot more EVs in cities than 5 years ago .... not so many in the far flung remote countryside yet. Charge point facilities are slowly getting there.

    Tax per mile won't help EV uptake in rural parts. I think VED will need a complete overhaul in the next decade, likely shift to a charge per mile, and may end up more expensive on motorways than B and C roads.

    Its incredible how long people drive to get to work round here, some of it is linked to young people not being able to get housing where they need it
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,461
    Neil O'Brien
    @NeilDotObrien
    ·
    11m

    The cost of anything you can really call a "National Care Service" would be enormous, so it is essential the PM sets out the funding plan immediately - or he will ignite 6 months of economically-damaging tax speculation with investors sitting on their hands - or leaving. (4/5)

    https://x.com/NeilDotObrien/status/2080950151909151137
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 878
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    His obsession with Manchester and thinking that is the NORTH will be his undoing. Tesco cannot be run like a cornershop.
    Morning,

    The Restore politician Henry Bolton has posted a map on 'X' which points the most northerly point of mainland Britain, Dunnet Head in Caithness.

    Only problem for him is the arrow is actually pointing to the north of the Orkneys ...


    https://x.com/_HenryBolton/status/2080757022962667805
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,274
    Sandpit said:

    Bloody hell, back to the beginnings of aerial warfare on the western front. Pretty good marksmanship in any case.

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
    Remarkable onboard footage from a Ukrainian Yak-52 backseat gunner shooting down Russian Shahed attack drones from an open cockpit with his rifle.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2080843279835201705?s=20

    Yep, private pilots in Ukraine are helping out with the war effort.

    A small plane with a gunner hanging out of the window has proven surprisingly efffective at taking out enemy drones.
    With the advantage that a guy with a hand held gun hanging out of the window is probably more effective than a $xx million Mach 2 fighter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,128

    Andy Burnham will unveil plans next week for adult social care in the first major policy speech of his premiership as he pledges to “face it and fix it”

    The prime minister has pledged to overhaul social care so that it “operates on the NHS principle” and is free at the point of need in a move that is projected to cost £18.5 billion a year

    However, The Times has been told that this “universal” offer is unlikely to cover the “daily living costs” of a care home, such as laundry, food, accommodation and energy bills

    It means home residents could still face bills of tens of thousands of pounds for accommodation costs under proposals for a new National Care Service

    Covering these costs for everybody would add about an extra £16 billion to annual costs, according to estimates based on average care home fees

    Dame Louise Casey, who is leading a commission looking at adult social care in England, is poised to launch a national conversation this month on how it should be paid for

    Burnham is expected to give a speech setting out his vision in London next week


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff51a7a6-6592-4389-a007-7bbf0f8a8644?shareToken=8bb9d8d9d76d12c2c9320bc31b39a619

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2080932513829036145

    That's the split between "care costs" and "hotel costs" (they even call them hotel costs on aircraft carriers).

    I'm not sure what "operating on the NHS principle" means in this context.

    But I note that the Dilnot Commission way back when expected "hotel costs" to be paid by the individual, and be outside the £35k lifetime cap on charges to the individual which applied to care costs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,704

    Sandpit said:

    Bloody hell, back to the beginnings of aerial warfare on the western front. Pretty good marksmanship in any case.

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
    Remarkable onboard footage from a Ukrainian Yak-52 backseat gunner shooting down Russian Shahed attack drones from an open cockpit with his rifle.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2080843279835201705?s=20

    Yep, private pilots in Ukraine are helping out with the war effort.

    A small plane with a gunner hanging out of the window has proven surprisingly efffective at taking out enemy drones.
    With the advantage that a guy with a hand held gun hanging out of the window is probably more effective than a $xx million Mach 2 fighter.
    Yes, F-16s are a very expensive and surprisingly ineffective way to shoot down a drone powered by a lawnmower engine and bumbling along at 60kts.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,385
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    I am not hugely optimistic. I fear he is going to be facile and weak, reluctant to take hard decisions (eg prisoner release from overcrowded jails) and jumping from one band waggon to the next. But I very much hope that I am wrong and that we get at least some of the leadership we need.

    The reluctance to take hard decisions - and to be seen to be taking them - seems universal in politics. It will be interesting to see if Burnham decides to to take the risk of abandoning that 'avoidance' model. It's possible the voting public have had enough of the avoidance route.

    One critical test is coming up. Burnham has promised a 10 year plan 'later this year'. If Burnham is Starmer we will get meaningless waffle in 2028 which will be instantly reversed. So we will know if it doesn't happen in 2026.

    If it does happen, we will have a decent idea of how he approaches hard decisions. Take social care: Starmer almost immediately kicked it into the very long grass (review and action by 2034 IIRC). Burnham has made it a central policy and action plank. The last time someone did that was T May in 2017 and it nearly won Corbyn the election.

    I am sceptical of Burnham and Manchesterism. It seems to me from afar to be a couple of things nicked from London and a couple of hasty retreats on affordable housing and clean air zones when the going got even a little choppy. London, for me, has the better Mayor.

    But on reflection, maybe Burnham really is the messiah, and that rather than caving in the face of opposition, he pragmatically retreated in order to get shovels in the ground. Maybe it is better to get a compromise built rather than fight on and risk getting none of his pure vision enacted.

    That said, funnelling George Osborne's money to a single property developer still does not look very hard and to a cynic, looks suspicious even if it isn't. Stuffing the Cabinet with ministers from his own regional powerbase, as well as basing his northern outpost there also leaves a sour taste. Likewise sacking any ministers who did not try to oust the discredited Starmer.

    Pragmatist or weathervane? Let's hope the former.
    Thanks. Two points. No-one has indicated what sort of cabinet Burnham could have constructed which would have been immune from criticism, ideally balanced, and made all the aspirants to top positions happy. That's just politics. Move on.

    As to the northern emphasis in appointments, this comes to mind. Until last week I never noticed anyone commenting on the geographical composition of the top government posts. I suspect that Londoncentricity is so taken for granted that any derogation is astonishing.

    There's another point about the north (and the midlands). And it's called Reform. In much of England the Reform threat is to what were generally safe Tory seats. These make little difference to Labour's efforts to get to 325+ in 2029. But in the north, take Cumbria as a simple example. Historically Cumbria is a mix of Tory, Lab and LD MPs. But, ignoring Farron's safe LD seat, all the rest are currently Labour, previously they were all Tory in 2019, and all projected to go Reform next time. Labour could lose the next election by losing the north alone. Burnham is rightly working on this.

    On regional appointments, it's not the north but specifically the north-west. See the Guardian's handy charts:-


    Race, school, gender: the makeup of Andy Burnham’s cabinet – in charts
    ...
    The north-west overrepresented

    It is little surprise that Burnham, the former Greater Manchester mayor and “King of the North”, has given an outsized number of cabinet posts to MPs representing seats from the north-west.

    Politicians from that region, which has been Burnham’s power base for several years, make up just over a quarter of the cabinet – but only 11% of the UK population live there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jul/24/demographic-makeup-of-andy-burnham-cabinet-charts
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