39% of Brits are against female equality – politicalbetting.com

System · June 12

39% of Brits are against female equality – politicalbetting.com

39% of Britons think the WASPI Women should be given compensationSympathise, should compensate: 36%Do not sympathise, should compensate: 3%Sympathise, should not compensate: 13%Do not sympathise, should not compensate: 7%Don't know/have not heard about them: 41%yougov.com/en-gb/daily-…

Read the full story here

eek · June 12

first

eek · June 12

FPT

Battlebus said:

MattW said:

eek said:

MattW said:

Burgessian said:

MattW said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:
It’s either breakfasts for poor kids or stopping the Russkis shooting them.
At least Colonel Blimp was a sensitive, honourable man capable of change underneath the reactionary old fool, whereas this guy..

Lord Alan West: "Its all very well having nice spending for breakfast for children at school.. but if that means.. you have Russians stomping down your streets shooting the children who would have been having breakfast.."

Russians killing your kids. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?

https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/2065301442752070026?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
Curious. Not that long ago it was the overseas-aid budget that was sucking the funding from Britain's defence requirements.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1156278/jacob-rees-mogg-iran-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson-lbc-brexit-news-video

Rachel and Sir Keir slashed that in half, but now it's breakfast clubs that are the problem. What gives?
Lord Alan West (why am I reminded of Walk on the Wild side?) is an excellent argument for Members of the Lords to retire at 80.
Lord West is 78. Former First Sea Lord who had his ship sunk during the Falklands. A "fighting admiral" who is a Labour peer and made security minister by Gordon Brown. A useful person to have in the Lords, I would have thought.
I'm very familiar with Lord West.

To me these days he seems to be a classic Daily Telegraph retired Admiral, commentating from how things were several decades ago.

I'd say he is more suited for the Telegraph than the Lords.

IMO he needs to consider the the effect of free school meals, including breakfasts, on children's health and the effectiveness of their education.
Given how much we spend on education, making sure children have been fed enough so they can actually concentrate and learn is money well spent.

But that shouldn't be attached to the amount of interest we charge on student loans for those who wanted to go to university.
Yes - I agree.

Perhaps we should fund it by means testing state pensions for those with incomes over perhaps 80k or 100k.

Pensions are an interesting example of where the system is not wrong, but has been caught out by events. Someone who has never contributed will get £3 a week less than someone on full pension who has contributed for 30-35 years. And since Pension Credit is a gateway to other benefits, the full pension is actually less value. Ignore WASPI and sort pensions.

Likely solution is to remove the link between NI and pensions by removing NI and making all pensions means tested. No more indexing to RPI but based, as Pension Credit is, on a person's/couple's actual needs.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that most people who have not retired are going to be wealthy in retirement.

If you have a defined benefit pension chances are you will have a happy retirement, most current defined contribution pensions are going to provide people with very little.

And most people are saving for their pension assuming that the state pension will exist in some form or other - otherwise people need to save another £250,000 over their working lifetime.

Malmesbury · June 12

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?

No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.

DecrepiterJohnL · June 12

I fear the header's tongue is in its cheek. As for the poll, lots of (or even most) respondents don't know.

kinabalu · June 12

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.

Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?

williamglenn · June 12

bigjohnowls said:
Lord Alan West: "Its all very well having nice spending for breakfast for children at school.. but if that means.. you have Russians stomping down your streets shooting the children who would have been having breakfast.."

Russians killing your kids. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?

https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/2065449196472131988

“The defence of our nation is the first duty of government.”

It is. Your predecessor resigned yesterday because Keir Starmer wouldn’t fund it properly.

We need to cut welfare to pay for defence.

Taz · June 12

I see it talk Burnham all of 24 hours to roll back on his pledge to give these women money.

It’s free travel now.

Which they get anyway.

What a schmuck

Mexicanpete · June 12

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?

It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.

Nigelb · June 12

"As a stronger of female equality" ?

Nigelb · June 12

Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....

grammarschoolboy · June 12

Give them the money.

Then tax it at 200%

Battlebus · June 12

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....

Have the US markets closed yet?

williamglenn · June 12

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....

https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.

Taz · June 12

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.

As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.

Malmesbury · June 12

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.

That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.

turbotubbs · June 12

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.

Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?

Malmesbury · June 12

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?

I have a personal axe to grind with violent, racist, organised criminals? I suppose I do.

I'm so extreme that I think they should be arrested for their crimes, put on trial, convicted and sent to prison.

I understand that we can't do that, because we live in a Civilised Country. But I can be upset.

Battlebus · June 12

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.

The Iranian view is less complimentary than the Twitter feed. Two sides shouting past each other.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/06/12/770298/Iran-firm-on-red-lines-as-proposed-deal-not-finalized-amid-US-backtracking

TheScreamingEagles · June 12

Nigelb said:
"As a stronger of female equality" ?

Well done for spotting my, ahem, deliberate mistake.

stronger = strong supporter.

williamglenn · June 12

It occurs to me that the Labour Party could do worse than calling in Donald Trump to help resolve their leadership problems by negotiating a deal between the warring factions.

MattW · June 12

FPT: Because @Malmesbury was asking for it:

MattW said:

Malmesbury said:

MattW said:

Andy_JS said:
"Ministers want 60% of children walking or cycling to school by 2035"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3wyezwly69o
That should actually be a fairly straightforward target to meet, since our schools tend to have geographical catchment, and we already have places that aiui meet the target eg Portsmouth.

I'd argue we should also use it as an opportunity to improve and expand our public footpath network.
I would be interested to see new urban designs (for new towns) that have vehicle, footpaths and cycle lanes segregated from each other.

I saw a design the other day - with road (in the style of the old coal lanes) at the bottom of back gardens (with garages/car standing on the plots, not in the road), and the front gardens opening onto pavements with cycle lanes between them.
In current projects, Waterbeach near Cambridge is a development aiming to be "sustainable" from the outset.

Article:
https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/modus/built-environment/homes-and-communities/waterbeach-blueprint-new-town.html

Active Travel Cafe presentation:

The actual presentation starts at the second section, and they outline some quite interesting challenges and balances they had to work through with current expectations and current practice. One interesting one is how to prioritise pedestrians and de-emphasise vehicles, when VIPs (visually impaired people) actually want kerbs to help them navigate. Exhibition Road in London is an interesting case in point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVCgReNi3nM

My dad was involved as an architect in laying out things in our town in the late 1960s early 1970s, and I could show you things here with similar principles in some respects.

Here's a little area that is like that - essentially reversed, with cars at the back and front gardens away from the road. This is about 1969:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/juGQKhRaFXaDXgi6A

Obviously there is a futile anti-wheelchair barrier at the end of the path in from the main road. Gotta make life as hard as possible for disabled people. That style of barrier with "sleeve corners" is probably early to mid-1970s:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WECBJgxKpfd57E2U6

Malmesbury · June 12

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?

I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

eek · June 12

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

It's a stalemate but given Trump's original announcements - the USA lost on about March 1st when he discovered that the Straits were very blockable...

Taz · June 12

eek said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
It's a stalemate but given Trump's original announcements - the USA lost on about March 1st when he discovered that the Straits were very blockable...

But the IDF and Bibi told him in early Feb, when they made the case for war, Iran wouldn’t block it !!

kinabalu · June 12

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.

No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.

Malmesbury · June 12

eek said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
It's a stalemate but given Trump's original announcements - the USA lost on about March 1st when he discovered that the Straits were very blockable...

"And this is war!"

"No," said the young lieutenant; "it's Bloch."

"The game's a draw."

"No! They've got to win or else they lose. A draw's a win for our side."

They had discussed the political situation fifty times or so, and the war correspondent was weary of it. He stretched out his limbs. "Aaai s'pose it is!" he yawned.

https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0604041h.html

Taz · June 12

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?

Yet on this, on the peace deal, they have been more right than Trump.

eek · June 12

I see the Telegraph is running another anti- Net Zero article which basically consists of here are things the EU have already implemented that we will also be doing so

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/net-zero/miliband-underfloor-heating-in-net-zero-drive/

Taz · June 12

eek said:
I see the Telegraph is running another anti- Net Zero article which basically consists of here are things the EU have already implemented that we will also be doing so

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/net-zero/miliband-underfloor-heating-in-net-zero-drive/

I had underfloor heating in a flat I lived in in the great city of Brum.

It was useless and expensive

Not read the article. Paywall.

Taz · June 12

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
The Iranian view is less complimentary than the Twitter feed. Two sides shouting past each other.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/06/12/770298/Iran-firm-on-red-lines-as-proposed-deal-not-finalized-amid-US-backtracking

Clearly Aragachi, Pezehkian and that speaker dude are in office but not in power.

Malmesbury · June 12

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.

Not so much concessions in formal terms, but holding the line on civilian policing. Sure, you can't hunt down all the old barstewards for everything they've ever done.

But new crimes shouldn't have been included in the effective immunity. Which they have.

Note that in the early days, some characters like Slab *were* dealt with. Though in the case of Slab, a lot of that was to do with his not really being on board with the peace process.

kinabalu · June 12

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
I have a personal axe to grind with violent, racist, organised criminals? I suppose I do.

I'm so extreme that I think they should be arrested for their crimes, put on trial, convicted and sent to prison.

I understand that we can't do that, because we live in a Civilised Country. But I can be upset.

I didn't mean that. I meant some sort of personal (eg family) connection to the topic. You write about it as if there is.

You don't have to answer. I was just curious.

Cookie · June 12

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.

Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.

Malmesbury · June 12

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
I have a personal axe to grind with violent, racist, organised criminals? I suppose I do.

I'm so extreme that I think they should be arrested for their crimes, put on trial, convicted and sent to prison.

I understand that we can't do that, because we live in a Civilised Country. But I can be upset.
I didn't mean that. I meant some sort of personal (eg family) connection to the topic. You write about it as if there is.

You don't have to answer. I was just curious.

I was born there.

FF43 · June 12

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage (through sanctions), not Iran.

Taz · June 12

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.

Iran can wait and wait and wait.

They’re resilient. They’ve lived under sanctions for years.

The Iranian regime are always the ones pooh-poohing (a nation ruined by Pooh-pooh) the US and the Trumpdozer claiming a deal is in hand.

Malmesbury · June 12

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.

Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.

RandallFlagg · June 12

williamglenn said:
It occurs to me that the Labour Party could do worse than calling in Donald Trump to help resolve their leadership problems by negotiating a deal between the warring factions.

Starmer will be around for a very long while in that case.

kinabalu · June 12

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.
Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.

Blair bypassed her when it came to getting it over the line.

Mexicanpete · June 12

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.

I have no desire to see Loyalist and Republican criminals getting away with murder, but if they promise to never do it again, are as good as their word and several thousands people who would otherwise have died if the sectarian criminals hadn't made that promise live to tell the tail, reluctantly I would live with it.

FF43 · June 12

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.

The point though is that Iran wasn't getting much (at various points, any) oil out because of US sanctions, so a stalemate just bakes in the status quo and status quo ante. Iran probably also doesn't care whether whether it gets paid by sanctions relief on oil exports or Hormuz tolls on third party shipping. If it gets sanctions relief for allowing free shipping, that removes most of the US leverage, while Iran gains leverage by being able to close Hormuz again at a later date.

This is all down to Trump's stupidity obviously but it's where they are.

Malmesbury · June 12

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
The point though is that Iran wasn't getting much (at various points, any) oil out because of US sanctions, so a stalemate just bakes in the status quo and status quo ante. Iran probably also doesn't care whether whether it gets paid by sanctions relief on oil exports or Hormuz tolls on third party shipping. If it gets sanctions relief for allowing free shipping, that removes most of the US leverage, while Iran gains leverage by being able to close Hormuz again at a later date.

This is all down to Trump's stupidity obviously but it's where they are.

Iran was getting lots and lots of oil out, before this started. The US sanctions meant they had to be a slightly creative about the buyers, but not much. See Russian oil for similar.

The US wasn't blockading oil exports.

Now they aren't getting anywhere near as much oil out.

Malmesbury · June 12

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.
I have no desire to see Loyalist and Republican criminals getting away with murder, but if they promise to never do it again, are as good as their word and several thousands people who would otherwise have died if the sectarian criminals hadn't made that promise live to tell the tail, reluctantly I would live with it.

They are continuing get to get away with murder. Occasionally, literally.

FF43 · June 12

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
The point though is that Iran wasn't getting much (at various points, any) oil out because of US sanctions, so a stalemate just bakes in the status quo and status quo ante. Iran probably also doesn't care whether whether it gets paid by sanctions relief on oil exports or Hormuz tolls on third party shipping. If it gets sanctions relief for allowing free shipping, that removes most of the US leverage, while Iran gains leverage by being able to close Hormuz again at a later date.

This is all down to Trump's stupidity obviously but it's where they are.
Iran was getting lots and lots of oil out, before this started. The US sanctions meant they had to be a slightly creative about the buyers, but not much. See Russian oil for similar.

The US wasn't blockading oil exports.

Now they aren't getting anywhere near as much oil out.

Put it this way. Iran shows no sign of desperation for a deal to get Hormuz open again. Trump on the other hand does.

MarqueeMark · June 12

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....

He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?

MarqueeMark · June 12

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....

He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?

rottenborough · June 12

Danny (Dennis) Citrinowicz ,داني سيترينوفيتش
@citrinowicz

Remarkably, more than 100 days into the campaign, President Trump still appears not to fully understand the nature of the Iranian regime.

Simply put, until a deal is actually signed, Iran will continue to act against anyone it believes is challenging the status quo in the Strait of Hormuz.

And, as always, Tehran will respond to any U.S. military action against it, even if negotiations are on the verge of producing an agreement. Expecting Iran to refrain from retaliation merely because talks are advancing reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how the regime operates.

#IranWar‌

https://x.com/citrinowicz/status/2065441091348767191

Taz · June 12

Here’s a shock

“ Britain is facing a surge in people taking their employers to court following Angela Rayner’s sweeping workers’ rights reforms.

Employment claims increased by 55pc in the first quarter of 2026 compared with the same period last year, new official figures show.

It comes after Labour’s Employment Rights Act obtained Royal Assent in December. It represents the biggest expansion of workers’ rights in over a decade, giving employees new protections over statutory sick pay, unfair dismissal and zero-hours contracts.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/06/12/angela-rayners-workers-rights-reforms-trigger-surge-in-lega/

Meanwhile

“ Shop worker roles were the worst-affected, as high street firms were squeezed by higher minimum wage costs, taxes and energy bills.

Employers that still needed to take people on had instead reached for “more flexible solutions”, leading to the biggest surge in temporary worker billings for three years.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/06/08/job-ads-permanent-roles-fall-at-fastest-pace-in-10-months/?recomm_id=74fe9e1c-0dc8-4d03-bf3a-7e8dd70c5a8b

Not a problem likely to affect anyone here so no one will be bothered

Taz · June 12

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.
I have no desire to see Loyalist and Republican criminals getting away with murder, but if they promise to never do it again, are as good as their word and several thousands people who would otherwise have died if the sectarian criminals hadn't made that promise live to tell the tail, reluctantly I would live with it.

Easy to say when you don’t live in the six counties but a rather middle class part of Wales

MarqueeMark · June 12

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.

Difference being Trump has mid-term elections in five months. Unless inflation hurtles down, he's facing two years of impeachment and a world of oversight pain.

Tehran laughs at the idea of elections.

williamglenn · June 12

https://x.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/2065454623897395623

It is quite literally “The thick of it”. This stuff is just too cringe. Stop it please. Stop it.

MarqueeMark · June 12

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?

This duplicate post was brought to you by GWR wifi...

Malmesbury · June 12

MarqueeMark said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
Difference being Trump has mid-term elections in five months. Unless inflation hurtles down, he's facing two years of impeachment and a world of oversight pain.

Tehran laughs at the idea of elections.

They have Putin's problem - if they lose, it might well be existential for them. Personally.

Taz · June 12

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?

He’d pay full price, the big twit.

Malmesbury · June 12

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
The point though is that Iran wasn't getting much (at various points, any) oil out because of US sanctions, so a stalemate just bakes in the status quo and status quo ante. Iran probably also doesn't care whether whether it gets paid by sanctions relief on oil exports or Hormuz tolls on third party shipping. If it gets sanctions relief for allowing free shipping, that removes most of the US leverage, while Iran gains leverage by being able to close Hormuz again at a later date.

This is all down to Trump's stupidity obviously but it's where they are.
Iran was getting lots and lots of oil out, before this started. The US sanctions meant they had to be a slightly creative about the buyers, but not much. See Russian oil for similar.

The US wasn't blockading oil exports.

Now they aren't getting anywhere near as much oil out.
Put it this way. Iran shows no sign of desperation for a deal to get Hormuz open again. Trump on the other hand does.

And yet nothing like a deal appears.

I think this is because, for both sides, the pain is preferable to any deal that the other side would sign.

kinabalu · June 12

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage (through sanctions), not Iran.

Yep. That's why I've been expecting Trump to agree to some 'deal' which is worse than he could have got before he broke off talks to have a war instead.

But I've been expecting that for a while and it still hasn't happened. So I don't know. Maybe it will drag on for ages. Months more of his stupid Truths about being just about to obliterate them or just about to do a fantastic deal.

You'd have hoped the domestic pressure on him would build and force him to cease and desist. But does he care? He's the president and will be (oh god) until Jan 2029. Who is he accountable to? Nobody really.

The best hope is maybe that he gets bored of Iran. They must surely be bored of him.

rottenborough · June 12

Reeves destroyed this government's support within weeks of coming to office.

Luke Tryl
@LukeTryl

I am genuinely interested in the counter factual where winter fuel didn’t happen. Nearly 2 years on it still comes up more often than not in focus groups (and contrary to what some assume just as often from non pensioners) as the moment people lost faith in Starmer and his Govt

Luke Tryl
@LukeTryl

From talking to so many people since the election the consequences of that decision and way it was announced and the amount of good will it eroded I think are outsized - and much more convincing as a narrative of the unravelling of this Government than Britain is ungovernable.

https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2065142973667443185

Malmesbury · June 12

Peruvian election update - Keiko ahead. By about 600 votes

rkrkrk · June 12

Taz said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.
I have no desire to see Loyalist and Republican criminals getting away with murder, but if they promise to never do it again, are as good as their word and several thousands people who would otherwise have died if the sectarian criminals hadn't made that promise live to tell the tail, reluctantly I would live with it.
Easy to say when you don’t live in the six counties but a rather middle class part of Wales

Northern ireland voted for GFA - 71% in favour.

FF43 · June 12

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
The point though is that Iran wasn't getting much (at various points, any) oil out because of US sanctions, so a stalemate just bakes in the status quo and status quo ante. Iran probably also doesn't care whether whether it gets paid by sanctions relief on oil exports or Hormuz tolls on third party shipping. If it gets sanctions relief for allowing free shipping, that removes most of the US leverage, while Iran gains leverage by being able to close Hormuz again at a later date.

This is all down to Trump's stupidity obviously but it's where they are.
Iran was getting lots and lots of oil out, before this started. The US sanctions meant they had to be a slightly creative about the buyers, but not much. See Russian oil for similar.

The US wasn't blockading oil exports.

Now they aren't getting anywhere near as much oil out.
Put it this way. Iran shows no sign of desperation for a deal to get Hormuz open again. Trump on the other hand does.
And yet nothing like a deal appears.

I think this is because, for both sides, the pain is preferable to any deal that the other side would sign.

Slightly going round in circles on this but will close off by pointing out that's because any possible deal moves the dial firmly in Iran's direction.

I don't actually think Iran is negotiating this particularly well but that is secondary to the fundamentals of each side's position coming into negotiations.

RobD · June 12

Malmesbury said:
Peruvian election update - Keiko ahead. By about 600 votes

They might need to add another decimal place.

Nigelb · June 12

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:
"As a stronger of female equality" ?
Well done for spotting my, ahem, deliberate mistake.

stronger = strong supporter.

It's just to check that someone actually reads the headers, right ?

kinabalu · June 12

williamglenn said:
https://x.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/2065454623897395623

It is quite literally “The thick of it”. This stuff is just too cringe. Stop it please. Stop it.

Oh no, it's Karl "personality" Turner.

Nigelb · June 12

Taz said:

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?
He’d pay full price, the big twit.

He'd haggle the price upwards.

rottenborough · June 12

Historians in a hundred years time will struggle to believe the Trump period.

Gregory Brew
@gbrew24

This is just how we do diplomacy now, folks.

Trump reposts Araghchi tweet.

https://x.com/gbrew24/status/2065466808396620162

SandyRentool · June 12

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.
Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.
Blair bypassed her when it came to getting it over the line.

The hand of history wasn't on Mo's shoulder.

theProle · June 12

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
That assumes that prosecuting individuals for "civilian" crimes would lead straight back to war.

According to that logic, if I want my mainland crime syndicate to be untouched, I should just threaten to bomb the Savoy each year, until the police stop investigating me.

So don't complain about the racist firebombing. Perhaps we should celebrate them?

For The Greater Good.
I have no desire to see Loyalist and Republican criminals getting away with murder, but if they promise to never do it again, are as good as their word and several thousands people who would otherwise have died if the sectarian criminals hadn't made that promise live to tell the tail, reluctantly I would live with it.

I think you're mixing up two issues.

As part of the GFA, we decided to not to go after the MoV for their former activities, prior to the GFA, in return for them ceasing to be MoV. That was unpalatable, but probably necessary.

What we've also done, in practice, is give the MoV a degree of immunity from investigation for crimes committed post GFA. This is very much not OK, because ultimately it's allowing the MoV to continue to exert control via thier violence. Thus we arrive at the point where we sentence English people who may have posted unkind things about on Twitter about immigrants more harshly than the MoV who have been pulling the strings behind the latest round of burning people out of their houses in Belfast.

(I'm actually in NI this week, I encountered a load of stuff dumped and set on fire at a junction on the A55 in East Belfast on my way through on Tuesday night, which was a bit surreal when you're not used to that sort of thing - presumably in some way connected to the protests).

rottenborough · June 12

Nigelb said:

Taz said:

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?
He’d pay full price, the big twit.
He'd haggle the price upwards.

Yes, but when he got back to the hotel he would tell his fellow guests that it was greatest DEAL of all time repeatedly until they wanted to punch him.

MarqueeMark · June 12

Malmesbury said:

MarqueeMark said:

Malmesbury said:

FF43 said:

Malmesbury said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
Not sure I would. This is a regime that looks up our citizens on fake spying charges to extract money. Why should we believe anything they say?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"

When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?
I assume that both the Iranian regime and Trump are bullshitting about the "agreements" that they regularly claim to be "about to be signed"
When you read the reported texts, they are always of the form "We win, you lose".

- Agree on both points

The situation is a stalemate, not a victory for either side. Why should either side declare defeat?

- The two sides don't however have an equal interest in a deal. The overriding objective for the Trump administration is to get Hormuz open and Oil and Gas flowing again. Iran doesn't care whether Hormuz is open or not, but it does value the leverage of being able to close it. It's also short of money. The basic shape of a possible deal is US pays Iran to allow ships to pass on the understanding Iran could close the Strait at any time. This isn't an easy deal for the US administration to accept given shipping, was passing through freely before Trump's utterly stupid military operation, and it was the US that previously had leverage through sanctions, not Iran.
Iran cares a lot about getting more of their oil out. Their economy depends on it. The regime has difficulty paying its military/police. They really, really care about Hormuz being open.

The problem, for the Iranian regime is that they can't back down either - their opponents are watching for weakness.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime are therefore stuck - their trousers nailed to the masthead.
Difference being Trump has mid-term elections in five months. Unless inflation hurtles down, he's facing two years of impeachment and a world of oversight pain.

Tehran laughs at the idea of elections.
They have Putin's problem - if they lose, it might well be existential for them. Personally.

But there is no free press. How do they "lose"?

rottenborough · June 12

kinabalu said:

williamglenn said:
https://x.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/2065454623897395623

It is quite literally “The thick of it”. This stuff is just too cringe. Stop it please. Stop it.
Oh no, it's Karl "personality" Turner.

He's right though isn't he? We are, as Hodges keeps saying, at the "where is Steiner" period of this downfall.

Nigelb · June 12

rottenborough said:
Historians in a hundred years time will struggle to believe the Trump period.

Gregory Brew
@gbrew24

This is just how we do diplomacy now, folks.

Trump reposts Araghchi tweet.

https://x.com/gbrew24/status/2065466808396620162

I'm struggling now.

kinabalu · June 12

SandyRentool said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.
Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.
Blair bypassed her when it came to getting it over the line.
The hand of history wasn't on Mo's shoulder.

Well it was - then it frogmarched her out of the building.

Nigelb · June 12

rottenborough said:

Nigelb said:

Taz said:

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?
He’d pay full price, the big twit.
He'd haggle the price upwards.
Yes, but when he got back to the hotel he would tell his fellow guests that it was greatest DEAL of all time repeatedly until they wanted to punch him.

He was the worst trader.
Weak and pathetic.
No one knows carpets better than me.

AnneJGP · June 12

I don't get irritated very often but this does irritate me. I was close enough to being among the WASPI cohort to take a great interest in all the publicity. Eventually established that I was the last year-of-birth not affected. So it's crystal clear to me that the publicity was more than adequate and the problem lies with people ignoring what's in front of their faces. The subset of the 41% of people now who haven't heard about them are their latter-day equivalents.

rottenborough · June 12

Nigelb said:

rottenborough said:

Nigelb said:

Taz said:

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
He's never bought a carpet in a souk, has he?
He’d pay full price, the big twit.
He'd haggle the price upwards.
Yes, but when he got back to the hotel he would tell his fellow guests that it was greatest DEAL of all time repeatedly until they wanted to punch him.
He was the worst trader.
Weak and pathetic.
No one knows carpets better than me.

Narrator: Then Trump sprayed the carpet with gold metallic spray to make it look 'presidential'.

kinabalu · June 12

rottenborough said:
Historians in a hundred years time will struggle to believe the Trump period.

Gregory Brew
@gbrew24

This is just how we do diplomacy now, folks.

Trump reposts Araghchi tweet.

https://x.com/gbrew24/status/2065466808396620162

I doubt it will take that long. But yes - the Trump presidency is a dark episode but above all it is an utterly ludicrous one.

rottenborough · June 12

kinabalu said:

SandyRentool said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.
Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.
Blair bypassed her when it came to getting it over the line.
The hand of history wasn't on Mo's shoulder.
Well it was - then it frogmarched her out of the building.

My recollection was he "fell out" with her when she got a spontaneous standing ovation of several minutes when he mentioned her in a labour conference speech.

rottenborough · June 12

Sari Arho Havrén
@SariArhoHavren

Fiona Hill, the former aide to Trump during his first term, participated in the #Kultaranta Talks, organised by the President of Finland, and gave an interesting interview to the Helsingin Sanomat newspaper. Some excerpts:

▪️Greenland could suffer the same fate as Crimea.
▪️Hill says she sees the United States acting more like Russia, the White House more like the Kremlin, and Trump behaving more like Putin. ▪️Hill says that Trump's desire to take over Greenland is psychological. “He wants to own things. This is about him."
▪️”If we look at history, this is exactly how the Soviet Union acted towards its own Warsaw Pact allies: it occupied Hungary, it occupied Czechoslovakia, and it pressured Poland in a way that led to the declaration of martial law in Poland," Hill says.
▪️”Trump is now essentially treating his NATO allies the same way the Soviet leaders treated the Warsaw Pact members: as vassal states and states that have no decision-making power of their own."
▪️On the stage of the Kultaranta discussions, Hill was asked whether Europe can trust the United States.
Hill answered bluntly no. And she reminded that the next administration cannot necessarily be trusted either.

https://x.com/SariArhoHavren/status/2065295513360982158

MattW · June 12

"Patriots" abusing police at a demo at Mansfield Police Station this Tuesday. Facebook video.

I don't know any names. A credit to their movement !

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1387330003231778

SandyRentool · June 12

rottenborough said:

kinabalu said:

SandyRentool said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.
Ok. That's a clearer explanation. And the personal axe? Was I right about that?
It's not a particularly rational explanation. Surely the greater good has been achieved through the GFA.

Chasing down evil bastard sectarians of both flavours sadly seems not worth the deaths and maimings resulting in the Europa Hotel continuing to be blown up every few months.
No but it's more clearly expressed. He's saying iho a better result was realistically achievable if Blair and Co had hung tougher on concessions. I disagree. I think the GFA was a huge positive achievement. I think most people do, both inside and outside NI.
Mo Mowlam bent over backwards to appease the extremists and marginalise the moderates. She was a bit dense but Blair had to find something to do with her. That is why we are where we are.
Blair bypassed her when it came to getting it over the line.
The hand of history wasn't on Mo's shoulder.
Well it was - then it frogmarched her out of the building.
My recollection was he "fell out" with her when she got a spontaneous standing ovation of several minutes when he mentioned her in a labour conference speech.

Fortunately not the sort of political falling out that involves windows in Moscow apartment buildings.

AnneJGP · June 12

Didn't realise MPs are hoping to push through the assisted dying bill by using the Parliament Act.

rottenborough · June 12

AnneJGP said:
I don't get irritated very often but this does irritate me. I was close enough to being among the WASPI cohort to take a great interest in all the publicity. Eventually established that I was the last year-of-birth not affected. So it's crystal clear to me that the publicity was more than adequate and the problem lies with people ignoring what's in front of their faces. The subset of the 41% of people now who haven't heard about them are their latter-day equivalents.

As the quip was the other night: what was the point of Burnham announcing he would pay up for the WASPI women as none of them ever follow the news or current affairs? No votes there Mr Madchester.

kinabalu · June 12

rottenborough said:

kinabalu said:

williamglenn said:
https://x.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/2065454623897395623

It is quite literally “The thick of it”. This stuff is just too cringe. Stop it please. Stop it.
Oh no, it's Karl "personality" Turner.
He's right though isn't he? We are, as Hodges keeps saying, at the "where is Steiner" period of this downfall.

I guess. He's going and thus has no authority. But Turner is being a dick imo. He's meant to be a Labour MP not an internet joker looking for lols and likes at the expense of his own PM and party.

rottenborough · June 12

kinabalu said:

rottenborough said:

kinabalu said:

williamglenn said:
https://x.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/2065454623897395623

It is quite literally “The thick of it”. This stuff is just too cringe. Stop it please. Stop it.
Oh no, it's Karl "personality" Turner.
He's right though isn't he? We are, as Hodges keeps saying, at the "where is Steiner" period of this downfall.
I guess. He's going and thus has no authority. But Turner is being a dick imo. He's meant to be a Labour MP not an internet joker looking for lols and likes at the expense of his own PM and party.

Well, that's up to the Whips to deal with.

As an aside, the idea that Burnham will drop the whipping system, which he has claimed, is total bollocks imho. Not going to happen.

Malmesbury · June 12

AnneJGP said:
I don't get irritated very often but this does irritate me. I was close enough to being among the WASPI cohort to take a great interest in all the publicity. Eventually established that I was the last year-of-birth not affected. So it's crystal clear to me that the publicity was more than adequate and the problem lies with people ignoring what's in front of their faces. The subset of the 41% of people now who haven't heard about them are their latter-day equivalents.

The obvious answer is that the WASPI women need to blow up the Europa Hotel a half dozen times.

rottenborough · June 12

AnneJGP said:
Didn't realise MPs are hoping to push through the assisted dying bill by using the Parliament Act.

Are they? Last I read they had decided not to do that????

eek · June 12

AnneJGP said:
Didn't realise MPs are hoping to push through the assisted dying bill by using the Parliament Act.

abusing the Parliament Act as it doesn't cover none manifesto bills.

rottenborough · June 12

Jonathan Karl
@jonkarl

The WH has a starkly different description of the preliminary Iran deal than the Iranians.

This is what a senior administration official tells
@rachelvscott
the deal includes:

1. Nuclear material will be destroyed and removed
2. Nuclear program will be dismantled
3. None of their money released until they perform
4. Strait of Hormuz will be open
5. No Iran funding of terrorist groups

“This is what they agreed to. This is a performance- based deal real.”

https://x.com/jonkarl/status/2065440650653249633

Battlebus · June 12

Taz said:

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
The Iranian view is less complimentary than the Twitter feed. Two sides shouting past each other.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/06/12/770298/Iran-firm-on-red-lines-as-proposed-deal-not-finalized-amid-US-backtracking
Clearly Aragachi, Pezehkian and that speaker dude are in office but not in power.

This is the point that Trump made, then has clearly forgotten. Israel took out the leadership and the new leadership is unformed at present. So how does Trump think he can do a deal with a fluid leadership structure? The more he pursues the 'deal' the more he shows the US to be a declining power. And those viewing will fill the gap.

MarqueeMark · June 12

RobD said:

Malmesbury said:
Peruvian election update - Keiko ahead. By about 600 votes

They might need to add another decimal place.

Maybe they could just do jobshare?

rottenborough · June 12

This could be a thread header @TSE ???

Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico

When was the 1st time something happened that made you think this might not be the country you'd been raised to think & hope it was? Not just something you disagreed with, but that was of a nature, or created a reaction in others, that made you doubt?

https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/2065476009655250990

boulay · June 12

Apparently there is a chance that Iran could play the US in the first knock-out round of the World Cup. Who would have imagined that there might be a point where virtually all of the world would be supporting Irran if that happened.

Sunil_Prasannan · June 12

Malmesbury said:

AnneJGP said:
I don't get irritated very often but this does irritate me. I was close enough to being among the WASPI cohort to take a great interest in all the publicity. Eventually established that I was the last year-of-birth not affected. So it's crystal clear to me that the publicity was more than adequate and the problem lies with people ignoring what's in front of their faces. The subset of the 41% of people now who haven't heard about them are their latter-day equivalents.
The obvious answer is that the WASPI women need to blow up the Europa Hotel a half dozen times.

"The Brits partitioned my Pension too, you know!"

MattW · June 12

MattW said:
"Patriots" abusing police at a demo at Mansfield Police Station this Tuesday. Facebook video.

I don't know any names. A credit to their movement !

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1387330003231778

Youtube copy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqv-eNBIlOE

AnneJGP · June 12

rottenborough said:

AnneJGP said:
Didn't realise MPs are hoping to push through the assisted dying bill by using the Parliament Act.
Are they? Last I read they had decided not to do that????

Just had an email from SPUC.

Sunil_Prasannan · June 12

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
The Iranian view is less complimentary than the Twitter feed. Two sides shouting past each other.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/06/12/770298/Iran-firm-on-red-lines-as-proposed-deal-not-finalized-amid-US-backtracking
Clearly Aragachi, Pezehkian and that speaker dude are in office but not in power.
This is the point that Trump made, then has clearly forgotten. Israel took out the leadership and the new leadership is unformed at present. So how does Trump think he can do a deal with a fluid leadership structure? The more he pursues the 'deal' the more he shows the US to be a declining power. And those viewing will fill the gap.

"FAKE NEWS from the RADICAL LEFT LUNATIC Battlebus! Thank you for your attention to this matter!"

MattW · June 12

kinabalu said:

rottenborough said:
Historians in a hundred years time will struggle to believe the Trump period.

Gregory Brew
@gbrew24

This is just how we do diplomacy now, folks.

Trump reposts Araghchi tweet.

https://x.com/gbrew24/status/2065466808396620162
I doubt it will take that long. But yes - the Trump presidency is a dark episode but above all it is an utterly ludicrous one.

The book cover will be the half-demolished White House.

MarqueeMark · June 12

boulay said:
Apparently there is a chance that Iran could play the US in the first knock-out round of the World Cup. Who would have imagined that there might be a point where virtually all of the world would be supporting Irran if that happened.

Trump will carpet-bomb their back four.

bondegezou · June 12

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

bondegezou said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Mexicanpete said:

Malmesbury said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:
More Lam:

https://x.com/katie_lam_mp/status/2065397992769671455

Keir Starmer and his Attorney General are still trying to open up prosecutions against Northern Ireland veterans.

Is it any surprise that they're not taking our country's security seriously, when this is how they treat people who've risked their lives to keep us safe?
Risked their lives? I guess Soldier F could have got a nasty blister from the amount of rounds he fired on Bloody Sunday.
Someone wanted the army sent in to shoot the rioters yesterday. Is soldier F busy, or can he do consultancy?
If my memory serves me, his conclusion as to what constituted a rioter wasn't fantastic, although he turned out to be a brilliant recruiting sergeant for top drawer Nationalist rioters and bone fide terrorists. Is that the sort of experience and quality you had in mind?
I was being sarcastic. The suggestion that the Army shooting at rioters would improve the situation. Or indeed The Peace Process.

Which is, apparently, sacred.
So was I. Personally as a regular visitor to the Northern part of the Emerald Isle I wouldn't dick about with the GFA either.
I still reject the idea that the GFA necessarily includes non-prosecution of criminals for murder, mass drug dealing, bank robberies and arson with side order of racism.

That wasn’t what we voted for. The politicians just found peace at any price the easy way forward.

EDIT: note the firebomb attack in Manchester. The Peace Process visiting the mainland?
Sorry, but have you gone completely loony? The Peace Process has nothing to do with the firebombing of an imam in Manchester.
I am drawing a line between scum doing racist firebombing in Northern Ireland and scum doing racist firebombing in Manchester.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Remember all the EDL/BNP/etc efforts to pal up with the Community Leaders in NI?

To the racist scum here, the Peace Process style is what they want. Power for them. on the streets.
I know. You keep repeating yourself. But it's still bonkers.
It's not bonkers to state that the Community Leaders have been given qualified immunity to Carry On Being Criminal. They have.

It's not bonkers to point out that this now includes ethnic cleansing. It does

It's not bonkers to point out the frequent attempts by the extreme right, in the UK, to join up with the Ulster paramilitaries. See stories in the Guardian and BBC.

If you let the scum be scum, you get scummy behaviour.
Sure. But my reading of your view based on the many posts we've had on it in the last few days is as follows:

The Northern Island peace process, which ended the thirty year orgy of sectarian violence known as the Troubles, was in fact a straight up appeasement of sectarian violence. The persistence of sectarian violence today, albeit at vastly reduced levels, proves this and shows what a big mistake it was.

It's an odd view but clearly a passionate one. I sense there's a personal axe in this for you. Would that be right?
No, the Peace Process *was* a political settlement, in which both sides agreed to use democratic norms to settle differences, by getting elected to an assembly and forming a partnership government.

The Men of Violence were persuaded to stop murdering by a combination of force and the offer of jobs.

As the peace process progressed, the MoV pushed against what they saw as annoying things. Like being arrested for entirely civilian crimes.

The response of the Governments in London and Dublin was to give them whatever they wanted. So, after each riot or permeative terroristic attack, the police were pulled back further and investigations were dropped. The alternative was not an instant return to WAR!!!! but some possibility of violence, if the investigations were continued.

This appeasement then created a situation in which the social democratic politicians were seen as increasingly irrelevant, on the streets. So the SDLP gave way to SF and in Unionist politics, the ratchet followed, as the UUP faded, the DUP came in etc etc.

The final result of this ratcheting of the appeasement is that racist firebombing of homes is not a prosecutable crime.

Yeah, but that's not actually true.

MarqueeMark · June 12

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

Battlebus said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

Nigelb said:
Honourable Honest Don is upset by the dishonourable Iranian lies.
https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2065430956433981637

Deal again in doubt....
https://x.com/araghchi/status/2065447197139738809

The Islamabad Memorandum of Understanding has never been closer. Pending its finalization, the media should refrain from entering speculation about its content.

In line with our responsible and transparent approach, all details will be shared with the public in due course.
As absurd as this sounds I’d trust the comments from the Iranian regime than the Trumpdozer.
The Iranian view is less complimentary than the Twitter feed. Two sides shouting past each other.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2026/06/12/770298/Iran-firm-on-red-lines-as-proposed-deal-not-finalized-amid-US-backtracking
Clearly Aragachi, Pezehkian and that speaker dude are in office but not in power.
This is the point that Trump made, then has clearly forgotten. Israel took out the leadership and the new leadership is unformed at present. So how does Trump think he can do a deal with a fluid leadership structure? The more he pursues the 'deal' the more he shows the US to be a declining power. And those viewing will fill the gap.

China doesn't need to do a damn thing.

Except wait.

It may find Russia and Trump's America collapse around the same time.

39% of Brits are against female equality – politicalbetting.com

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