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MAGA is here to stay – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,169
edited May 31 in General
MAGA is here to stay – politicalbetting.com

I don’t mind admitting it when I get wrong. and this YouGov America poll contradicts my view that MAGA would fade due to the consequences of the Iran war.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733
    edited May 31
    That's a shame.

    And is that a first?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    What matters most is two things - will Democrats be allowed to vote and will non-MAGA Republicans decide it's more important to vote against the Democrats, rather than against Trump.

    My prediction in the PB prediction competition was predicated on the expectation that the answers to these questions would be no and yes respectively.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,080
    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    Just like this one which seemed to be on the news regularly a few months back.

    In rural Oxfordshire.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2025/nov/19/drone-footage-mountain-fly-tipped-waste-kidlington-oxfordshire-video

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,411
    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,925

    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.

    Good morning, everyone.

    I've never trusted slogans.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    Longish thread by Rentoul on Kemi and her party's fortunes:


    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2061001676421513448
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587

    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.

    After Trump goes, they'll probably claim he "betrayed MAGA".
    In reality it's just a political brand, which seems to be replacing the GOP.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    edited May 31
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,564

    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.

    My slogan is 'Make American Great Britain Again'.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,792
    Is MAGA anything other than a rebranding of RedNeckism? What are the points of difference if not?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Is MAGA anything other than a rebranding of RedNeckism? What are the points of difference if not?

    You have to spend $500 of your beer/whiskey money on MAGA tat to be in MAGA.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    And this.

    Arrest following investigation into 18-thousand tonnes illegal waste dump in Wigan
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2026-05-20/man-arrested-following-investigation-into-25-tonne-illegal-waste-dump-in-wigan
    A man has been arrested as part of an ongoing investigation into large-scale, illegal dumping of waste at multiple sites across England.

    Officers from West Midlands Police arrested a 58-year-old male from the Birmingham area on suspicion of environmental, fraud and money laundering offences.

    The suspect has now been released on conditional bail pending further investigation..


    Perhaps they'll get around to the money laundering barbers/vape shops/mini marts next year ?
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 34
    edited May 31
    Worth noting that over the same period from 2022 to now the number of both registered Democrats and Republicans has fallen slightly from 29% to 27% while the number of independants has risen from 41% to 45%.

    So maybe the reason theat the Republicans are becoming more MAGA is people voting with thier feet and moving to the middle.

    Equally given time and the age profile of the two parties with Republicans 52, Democrats 47 and Independents 45, it could just be Republicans losing older members and recruiting fewer young ones.

    The Republicans becoming more a party of old die hards who are dying quicker ,while the young are less politically motivated or ideological.

    If true that points towards; "It's the Economy Stupid!"

    Peter.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587

    Is MAGA anything other than a rebranding of RedNeckism? What are the points of difference if not?

    Worship of Trump.
    For now, at least.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    edited May 31

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
    It's extremely close.
    It will turn on two things.
    The performance of Restore. And turnout. A high turnout may be good for Burnham given the GOTV advantage.
    Another point. Pensioners/ postal voters turnout. But, here, unlike many other places, voting Labour is more ingrained and automatic amongst the older generations.
    We'll see a high level of churn in both directions as the article suggests.
    I'd still be surprised if Burnham doesn't win. But I'm a lot less sure than before we started. Mainly because it was a straight Reform/Labour fight then.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Is MAGA anything other than a rebranding of RedNeckism? What are the points of difference if not?

    You have to spend $500 of your beer/whiskey money on MAGA tat to be in MAGA.
    More seriously MAGA is across the social, economic and educational strata, not just a red neck thing.

    51% of Harvard Republicans support MAGA and 44% of them define themselves as MAGA.

    https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/51st-edition-fall-2025
  • If the Tories lose in 2029 they’d do well to choose somebody who can run against the last Conservative government.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.

    My slogan is 'Make American Great Britain Again'.
    FFS, please not!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    If the Tories lose in 2029 they’d do well to choose somebody who can run against the last Conservative government.

    Truss ran against Bozo. Rishi ran against Truss.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,148
    Only in France would people riot after winning a championship.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193

    To be fair, Making America Great Again sounds like an idea everyone could 'Like"!

    It's just that it's been taken over by the crazies.

    My slogan is 'Make American Great Britain Again'.
    But that was precisely part of the problem. They were kept out of Britain as colonies, rather than let into the Union and granted the right to send MPs to Westminster.

    So you'd need something like, "Make America Great Britain As It Should Have Been Nearly Three Hundred Years Ago."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    And this.

    Arrest following investigation into 18-thousand tonnes illegal waste dump in Wigan
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2026-05-20/man-arrested-following-investigation-into-25-tonne-illegal-waste-dump-in-wigan
    A man has been arrested as part of an ongoing investigation into large-scale, illegal dumping of waste at multiple sites across England.

    Officers from West Midlands Police arrested a 58-year-old male from the Birmingham area on suspicion of environmental, fraud and money laundering offences.

    The suspect has now been released on conditional bail pending further investigation..


    Perhaps they'll get around to the money laundering barbers/vape shops/mini marts next year ?
    Mmm.
    Article detailing arrest dated 21st May. The same day the writ was moved.
    Spooky.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,498
    To the header - that core MAGA is very hardcore was known from previous polling. Independents and differential turnout is where the mid-terms will be decided.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,624

    Is MAGA anything other than a rebranding of RedNeckism? What are the points of difference if not?

    Nostalgia for the ante-bellum culture of the south is only one feature of MAGA. It's primarily a very effective tool of social control to advance the interests and obsessions of a very wealthy elite. It's a concept that was incubated more in Manhattan and Silicon Valley than in Dixie.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    And this.

    Arrest following investigation into 18-thousand tonnes illegal waste dump in Wigan
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2026-05-20/man-arrested-following-investigation-into-25-tonne-illegal-waste-dump-in-wigan
    A man has been arrested as part of an ongoing investigation into large-scale, illegal dumping of waste at multiple sites across England.

    Officers from West Midlands Police arrested a 58-year-old male from the Birmingham area on suspicion of environmental, fraud and money laundering offences.

    The suspect has now been released on conditional bail pending further investigation..


    Perhaps they'll get around to the money laundering barbers/vape shops/mini marts next year ?
    Mmm.
    Article detailing arrest dated 21st May. The same day the writ was moved.
    Spooky.
    Would seem to suggest that abolishing general elections, but having a rolling series of by-elections - perhaps a dozen on the last Thursday of every month (except December) - would be one way of forcing some issues to be addressed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,887
    Andy_JS said:

    Only in France would people riot after winning a championship.

    You think?

    Fan chaos Rangers George Square title party ‘riot’ clean-up bill soars to over £90k

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/7421984/rangers-fans-george-square-cost-council-riot-party/
  • If the Tories lose in 2029 they’d do well to choose somebody who can run against the last Conservative government.

    Truss ran against Bozo. Rishi ran against Truss.
    They’d all served in those governments. They need somebody who hasn’t.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    edited May 31

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    And this.

    Arrest following investigation into 18-thousand tonnes illegal waste dump in Wigan
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2026-05-20/man-arrested-following-investigation-into-25-tonne-illegal-waste-dump-in-wigan
    A man has been arrested as part of an ongoing investigation into large-scale, illegal dumping of waste at multiple sites across England.

    Officers from West Midlands Police arrested a 58-year-old male from the Birmingham area on suspicion of environmental, fraud and money laundering offences.

    The suspect has now been released on conditional bail pending further investigation..


    Perhaps they'll get around to the money laundering barbers/vape shops/mini marts next year ?
    Mmm.
    Article detailing arrest dated 21st May. The same day the writ was moved.
    Spooky.
    Would seem to suggest that abolishing general elections, but having a rolling series of by-elections - perhaps a dozen on the last Thursday of every month (except December) - would be one way of forcing some issues to be addressed.
    Would certainly address the paucity of political betting opportunities issue.
    What's not to like?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    Meanwhile, in Ukraine, the Russians hit a post office branch in Dnipro.

    Are the Ukrainian post office deeply involved in military logistics? I know that when I last bought something from a Ukrainian maker on Etsy they said delivery could be delayed due to disruption to the postal service, so the Russians do seem to think that attacking the Ukrainian postal service will help to win the war. I'm no expert in the winning of wars, but I'm not seeing it myself.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,624
    Andy_JS said:

    Only in France would people riot after winning a championship.

    There was a riot in Denver when the Avalanche won the Stanley Cup in 2022.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934
    edited May 31
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    And this.

    Arrest following investigation into 18-thousand tonnes illegal waste dump in Wigan
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2026-05-20/man-arrested-following-investigation-into-25-tonne-illegal-waste-dump-in-wigan
    A man has been arrested as part of an ongoing investigation into large-scale, illegal dumping of waste at multiple sites across England.

    Officers from West Midlands Police arrested a 58-year-old male from the Birmingham area on suspicion of environmental, fraud and money laundering offences.

    The suspect has now been released on conditional bail pending further investigation..


    Perhaps they'll get around to the money laundering barbers/vape shops/mini marts next year ?
    The NCA are finally getting involved in those rather than leaving it almost solely to Trading Standards, so yes probably start to see some enforcement and action next year.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,842
    MAGA is here to stay as they are basically Trump's core vote. However, while the Yougov America poll shows they make up over half of Republican voters they are only 18% of US voters as a whole. So the Republican party, even under Trump, couldn't win without reaching well beyond MAGA voters and in the midterms even if MAGA voters still vote GOP if Independents vote Democrat that will see the GOP lose Congress
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    Longish thread by Rentoul on Kemi and her party's fortunes:


    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2061001676421513448

    Rather a reasonable analysis.

    The Conservatives will survive. They always do, but I see them subsumed by Reform with Reform taking the brand name.They won't be Butskellist Tories, but the name lives on. Badenoch is half way there as we speak.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    I see the BBC have finally updated their headline of "arrests after wild celebrations in Paris " to what they were riots. I presume one of the adults in the room came to work to take over from the kids.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587

    I see the BBC have finally updated their headline of "arrests after wild celebrations in Paris " to what they were riots. I presume one of the adults in the room came to work to take over from the kids.

    "Wild celebrations by Visigoths as they enter Rome."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,080

    I see the BBC have finally updated their headline of "arrests after wild celebrations in Paris " to what they were riots. I presume one of the adults in the room came to work to take over from the kids.

    I saw the Guardian actually referred to it as ‘Mostly Peaceful’ 😂
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    Taz said:

    I see the BBC have finally updated their headline of "arrests after wild celebrations in Paris " to what they were riots. I presume one of the adults in the room came to work to take over from the kids.

    I saw the Guardian actually referred to it as ‘Mostly Peaceful’ 😂
    It's always good to know that celebrations after winning something are mostly peaceful.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,371

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Deep regression hypnotherapy might do the job...

    "Oh yes, I remember - I was Cleopatra!"
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,411
    edited May 31

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    She said it wasn't on the drive of her in-law's place; in other words at the front of the property, but away to the side, to that she 'might' not have seen it. Or if she did, that she thought it was the neighbours.
    Could someone please produce a ground plan of the place so we can test the likelihood of her statement?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Surely if there was anything to see, Police Scotland would have seen it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,080
    I can’t remember who the Swindon Town supporter is on PB, but for them I’ll be certain they’ll enjoy this as much as @Brixian59 and I didn’t !

    https://x.com/madeinbrumpod/status/2061004934699507812?s=61
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Deep regression hypnotherapy might do the job...

    "Oh yes, I remember - I was Cleopatra!"
    It reminds me of phone hacking inquiry. Nobody could recall anything.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,411

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Deep regression hypnotherapy might do the job...

    "Oh yes, I remember - I was Cleopatra!"
    It reminds me of phone hacking inquiry. Nobody could recall anything.
    Terrible thing, a poor memory.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,254

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    She said it wasn't on the drive of her in-law's place; in other words at the front of the property, but away to the side, to that she 'might' not have seen it. Or if she did, that she thought it was the neighbours.
    Could someone please produce a ground plan of the place so we can test the likelihood of her statement?
    Surely the best way of testing the likelihood of that statement is to ask a jury to give an opinion
  • The SNP I’m afraid are a deeply dodgy outfit.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 6,053
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
    It's extremely close.
    It will turn on two things.
    The performance of Restore. And turnout. A high turnout may be good for Burnham given the GOTV advantage.
    Another point. Pensioners/ postal voters turnout. But, here, unlike many other places, voting Labour is more ingrained and automatic amongst the older generations.
    We'll see a high level of churn in both directions as the article suggests.
    I'd still be surprised if Burnham doesn't win. But I'm a lot less sure than before we started. Mainly because it was a straight Reform/Labour fight then.
    I asked anthropic's claude to do some digging around and it eventually spat this out :

    https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b833c111-1cf1-4c22-afbf-1f4dc9763314

    Asked gpt to do the same thing and it looked like it had done a better job, but then fell over when it tried to make it into html. AGI any day now...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,916
    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475
    edited May 31
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    The SNP I’m afraid are a deeply dodgy outfit.

    Just wait until I tell you all about UKIP/Brexit and Reform.Ltd.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    :D:D:D
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462
    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    royals spend some of their own money , don't be silly, as usual they expect the mugs to pick up the tab
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,498

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Surely if there was anything to see, Police Scotland would have seen it.
    The history of policing in the U.K. would suggest that it wouldn’t be hard to find a police officer who, under oath, had no idea that there was a castle in Edinburgh.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462

    The SNP I’m afraid are a deeply dodgy outfit.

    An idiot opines
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    I think Biden/ Harris were also done for as a result of Southern Border immigration. If that floats one's boat and in the most disgusting ways possible Trump has nailed that. Inflation not so much.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    She said it wasn't on the drive of her in-law's place; in other words at the front of the property, but away to the side, to that she 'might' not have seen it. Or if she did, that she thought it was the neighbours.
    Could someone please produce a ground plan of the place so we can test the likelihood of her statement?
    Surely the best way of testing the likelihood of that statement is to ask a jury to give an opinion
    They got away with stitching up Salmond , just made the damning stuff unadmissable and ignored the witnesses for the accused so not make chance of that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462

    The SNP I’m afraid are a deeply dodgy outfit.

    Just wait until I tell you all about UKIP/Brexit and Reform.Ltd.
    Add Tories and Labour , VIP channel anyone
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,254
    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    In general, the monarch isn't subject to the courts. It's where the concept of Crown immunity comes from, and why Civil Servants technically don't have employment rights.

    So it's not so much that there is no duty to clean it up, more that the Duchy can't be made to do so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,424
    edited May 31
    I’m not sure this polling carries much implication for the midterms; it’s basically exploring the core vote. A bit like asking HY whether he’s still a Conservative and then projecting that onto the rest of voters for his party; the core vote can remain stable while swing voters are shopping elsewhere.

    Talking of polls and swing voters, this bit of research into the local elections is interesting and I think, free access (just give an email and put ‘None’ into the company box). It’s a mega poll of how voters switched behaviour between the 2024 GE and 2026 locals, and at the bottom there’s a drop down where you can select individual councils or even individual wards to see how voters moved. There isn’t much detail about confidence limits so I’d assume the data at Ward level is highly flaky, but for your council it should produce something better.

    https://convergent-opinion.com/local-elections-2026

  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    In general, the monarch isn't subject to the courts. It's where the concept of Crown immunity comes from, and why Civil Servants technically don't have employment rights.

    So it's not so much that there is no duty to clean it up, more that the Duchy can't be made to do so.
    The best explanation I have seen is that Bona Vacantia (ie this piece of land came to them through intestacy) voids pre-existing liabilities,

    Bit since 10,000 tons of waste is still sitting in a big heap on their piece of land, I do not see how they can walk away just like that.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,238

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    In general, the monarch isn't subject to the courts. It's where the concept of Crown immunity comes from, and why Civil Servants technically don't have employment rights.

    So it's not so much that there is no duty to clean it up, more that the Duchy can't be made to do so.
    So everything the monarchy does is voluntary? How does this all apply to Mr Andrew Winsor?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,842

    Longish thread by Rentoul on Kemi and her party's fortunes:


    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2061001676421513448

    Rather a reasonable analysis.

    The Conservatives will survive. They always do, but I see them subsumed by Reform with Reform taking the brand name.They won't be Butskellist Tories, but the name lives on. Badenoch is half way there as we speak.
    If the Tories were taken over by Reform then they wouldn't have survived they would effectively have been taken over by Reform whatever name the new party was called
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,424
    Andy_JS said:

    Only in France would people riot after winning a championship.

    Cf Lisbon 2021, Chicago 1993, Los Angeles 2000, Glasgow 2021, Liverpool 2020, Naples 2023, Bilbao 2024…..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,842

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    Harris was the most left liberal Democratic nominee for President since Dukakis in 1988, in US terms she was not centrist
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,858
    malcolmg said:

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    She said it wasn't on the drive of her in-law's place; in other words at the front of the property, but away to the side, to that she 'might' not have seen it. Or if she did, that she thought it was the neighbours.
    Could someone please produce a ground plan of the place so we can test the likelihood of her statement?
    Surely the best way of testing the likelihood of that statement is to ask a jury to give an opinion
    They got away with stitching up Salmond , just made the damning stuff unadmissable and ignored the witnesses for the accused so not make chance of that.
    (That meme of the astronaut preparing to shoot the other astronaut.)

    ""Wait, it's just personal rivalry and selfish ambition?"

    "Always has been."

    (See also: Keir/Andy/Wes, Boris/Dave, Boris/Theresa, Robert/Kemi, Nigel and the establishment, Zak and the world, almost every local government defection...)
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    The key argument is not that Clinton, Biden or Harris were hard-left. They plainly weren’t. It’s that a significant chunk of the electorate associated the Democratic Party with cultural liberalism, progressive activists and elite institutions. Once that perception takes hold, having a relatively centrist candidate at the top of the ticket doesn’t necessarily solve the problem
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    HYUFD said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    Harris was the most left liberal Democratic nominee for President since Dukakis in 1988, in US terms she was not centrist
    She was also drunk.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    "The land was transferred to the Duchy under the ancient "bona vacantia" legal principle which states that if a landowner goes into liquidation or dies without a will within the Duchy's juristiction, ownership defaults to the Duchy.

    However, the estate does not have to inherit any liabilities associated with the property."

    Source BBC.

    Duchy tried to gift the land to the Council but it isn't worth the c.£5m cost.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,185
    Sweeney74 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    Harris was the most left liberal Democratic nominee for President since Dukakis in 1988, in US terms she was not centrist
    She was also drunk.
    Utter bollocks
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,254
    Battlebus said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    It was a national scandal, which led to this.

    Taxpayers to fund clear-up of huge illegal waste dumps
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2expk404vo
    Three of the worst illegal rubbish dumps in England are set to be cleaned up at the taxpayers' expense as part of a national waste crime action plan launched by the government.
    Huge tips in Wigan, Sheffield and Lancashire - together containing 48,000 tonnes of waste - have been earmarked for clearance by the Environment Agency. A 20,000-tonne site in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, is already being cleared at a cost of more than £9m.
    Normally, the cost of clearing illegal sites on private land is met by the landowner.
    The plan has been welcomed by locals near the tips but villagers near one of the so-called supersites uncovered by a recent BBC investigation are angry that site is not being cleared.
    'Forgotten about'
    The three sites identified for clearance include a notorious dump in Bickershaw, near Wigan, which caught fire last summer, forcing schools nearby to close..


    Given how long such things take, if Burnham does become PM, he will probably get the opportunity to take credit for clearing it up.
    The "private land" has an exemption in Bickershaw. It's about one third owned by the Duchy of Lancaster.
    The Royals have no duty to clean up, and from all evidence, aren't in the slightest bit interested in so doing.
    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.
    In general, the monarch isn't subject to the courts. It's where the concept of Crown immunity comes from, and why Civil Servants technically don't have employment rights.

    So it's not so much that there is no duty to clean it up, more that the Duchy can't be made to do so.
    So everything the monarchy does is voluntary? How does this all apply to Mr Andrew Winsor?
    He's not the monarch, he's a private citizen. It is only the person of the monarch and the institution of the Crown that immunity applies to.

    If Andrew has appeared inviolable in the past, it is because of pressure and influence from the institution of the monarchy and HM the late Queen personally, not because of the law.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Only in France would people riot after winning a championship.

    Cf Lisbon 2021, Chicago 1993, Los Angeles 2000, Glasgow 2021, Liverpool 2020, Naples 2023, Bilbao 2024…..
    Paris 2022....and they weren't even playing.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,185
    HYUFD said:

    Longish thread by Rentoul on Kemi and her party's fortunes:


    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2061001676421513448

    Rather a reasonable analysis.

    The Conservatives will survive. They always do, but I see them subsumed by Reform with Reform taking the brand name.They won't be Butskellist Tories, but the name lives on. Badenoch is half way there as we speak.
    If the Tories were taken over by Reform then they wouldn't have survived they would effectively have been taken over by Reform whatever name the new party was called
    It'll be like the liberals and sdp

    That morphed on to Liberal Democrats.

    Post 2029 whether Reform will or not it will morph

    RCG

    Reform and Conservative Group.

    Very few current Tory MPs will survive, especially in Essex
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733
    Sweeney74 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MAGA may well be here to stay, but the Democrats have done their bit to help. Since 2020 they’ve managed the rare feat of combining an unpopular candidate, poor messaging and policies that many voters simply didn’t want. Parties usually only need one of those to lose an election.

    The more interesting question isn’t whether MAGA survives Trump, but whether the Democrats can rediscover the political centre before the Republicans rediscover theirs.

    Harris, Biden and Clinton were all pretty centrist, and much more so than Trump. Biden, of course, won. Clinton won the popular vote. Harris was close on the popular vote, but sunk by post-COVID inflation.
    Harris was the most left liberal Democratic nominee for President since Dukakis in 1988, in US terms she was not centrist
    She was also drunk.
    Citation needed.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,355
    kinabalu said:

    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.

    MAGA is me. Trump has said this and all indications are that he's correct. It's a personality cult in other words. And he does, tbf, have a strong personality. I find it utterly repellent, he has none of the traits I like or admire in a human being and just about all the ones I can't stand, but the cult members love him to bits. It's an unconditional and enduring love, a love that lasts forever, a love that has no past (preceding him). Can't say I understand it. Can't say I want to.
    I think that's entirely right.

    Also don't forget that Trump, though now identified as a conservative, began as a Democrat (because they dominated politics in New York, where his real estate business couldn't have survived without political favours and tax breaks at the state and local level), was briefly in the Reform Party, then transitioned to Independent, then back to Democrat for George Bush's Presidency and most of Obama's.

    He has tacked to the populist right partly because Obama insulted him at a dinner but mostly because the white working class turned out to be the most gullible section of the electorate, but he obviously feels no affinity for them, or interest in how to make their lives better. They are just easiest to con.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    The difference between rioting in France and the UK, we have a once in a generation riot like the events of yesterday, and there is swift incredibly harsh treatment of anybody caught who however minor their involvement. And we then have a national inquiry about it.

    The French, this is a regular occurence be it a industrial action, New Year (the annual set fire to as many cars as possible festival), a football match, etc. Lots of people get arrested but punishments are far less severe. Lots of shrugging and it happens again and again...

    Shop fitters, glaziers and bus shelter manufacteurs must make a killing in France.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 1,003
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Longish thread by Rentoul on Kemi and her party's fortunes:


    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2061001676421513448

    Rather a reasonable analysis.

    The Conservatives will survive. They always do, but I see them subsumed by Reform with Reform taking the brand name.They won't be Butskellist Tories, but the name lives on. Badenoch is half way there as we speak.
    If the Tories were taken over by Reform then they wouldn't have survived they would effectively have been taken over by Reform whatever name the new party was called
    It'll be like the liberals and sdp

    That morphed on to Liberal Democrats.

    Post 2029 whether Reform will or not it will morph

    RCG

    Reform and Conservative Group.

    Very few current Tory MPs will survive, especially in Essex
    Surly if we get PR that changes everything, opening up the chance to survive and thrive in a niche.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,858
    kinabalu said:

    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.

    MAGA is me. Trump has said this and all indications are that he's correct. It's a personality cult in other words. And he does, tbf, have a strong personality. I find it utterly repellent, he has none of the traits I like or admire in a human being and just about all the ones I can't stand, but the cult members love him to bits. It's an unconditional and enduring love, a love that lasts forever, a love that has no past (preceding him). Can't say I understand it. Can't say I want to.
    Question is then, what happens if you try to do Trumpism without Trump? The optimistic scenario is that you can't, and it collapses shortly after the Donald does.

    See also Faragism without Nigel.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    edited May 31
    ohnotnow said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
    It's extremely close.
    It will turn on two things.
    The performance of Restore. And turnout. A high turnout may be good for Burnham given the GOTV advantage.
    Another point. Pensioners/ postal voters turnout. But, here, unlike many other places, voting Labour is more ingrained and automatic amongst the older generations.
    We'll see a high level of churn in both directions as the article suggests.
    I'd still be surprised if Burnham doesn't win. But I'm a lot less sure than before we started. Mainly because it was a straight Reform/Labour fight then.
    I asked anthropic's claude to do some digging around and it eventually spat this out :

    https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b833c111-1cf1-4c22-afbf-1f4dc9763314

    Asked gpt to do the same thing and it looked like it had done a better job, but then fell over when it tried to make it into html. AGI any day now...
    Thanks.
    It's that lead amongst over 55's (who vote) for Burnham that convinces me he'll win.
    Reform will need to maximise turnout amongst youngish men. Which requires a huge GOTV for plenty of habitual non voters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,371

    kinabalu said:

    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.

    MAGA is me. Trump has said this and all indications are that he's correct. It's a personality cult in other words. And he does, tbf, have a strong personality. I find it utterly repellent, he has none of the traits I like or admire in a human being and just about all the ones I can't stand, but the cult members love him to bits. It's an unconditional and enduring love, a love that lasts forever, a love that has no past (preceding him). Can't say I understand it. Can't say I want to.
    Question is then, what happens if you try to do Trumpism without Trump? The optimistic scenario is that you can't, and it collapses shortly after the Donald does.

    See also Faragism without Nigel.
    There are very few political -isms. Blairism seemed to be a thing when he was putting his voter coalition together. But that didn't last Iraq. Major, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss (stop laughing at the back), Sunak, Starmer - none of them are going to have a political creed that survives their term.

    Thatcherism is the only one in my lifetime.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    "Ukraine’s ramped-up drone power is transforming its fortunes against Russia"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2026/05/31/ukraines-ramped-up-drone-power-is-transforming-its-fortunes-against-russia/

    This Financial Times article (bought by the Irish Times to republish) is interesting. Suggests there are some in Moscow hoping for an end to the war on the current front lines.

    Last year Ukraine would certainly have accepted, but by the time Putin decides to do so, might Ukraine decide they sufficiently have the upper hand that they might be able to push Russia out?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    Of course MAAG is here to stay,I don't know why anyone thought otherwise. The stubborness of the Trump love is personally baffling to me, but is extremely impressive. Even when's he's gone the movement remains, more or less.

    It's why 'wait until he goes and go back to normal' is not a viable strategy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    edited May 31
    ohnotnow said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
    It's extremely close.
    It will turn on two things.
    The performance of Restore. And turnout. A high turnout may be good for Burnham given the GOTV advantage.
    Another point. Pensioners/ postal voters turnout. But, here, unlike many other places, voting Labour is more ingrained and automatic amongst the older generations.
    We'll see a high level of churn in both directions as the article suggests.
    I'd still be surprised if Burnham doesn't win. But I'm a lot less sure than before we started. Mainly because it was a straight Reform/Labour fight then.
    I asked anthropic's claude to do some digging around and it eventually spat this out :

    https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b833c111-1cf1-4c22-afbf-1f4dc9763314

    Asked gpt to do the same thing and it looked like it had done a better job, but then fell over when it tried to make it into html. AGI any day now...
    There's some impressive stuff in AI, but what will happen is that they will achieve about 10% of the super grandiose claims, then mock anyone who pointed out they wouldn't achieve everything and pretend they said nothing would be achieved at all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,462

    "Ukraine’s ramped-up drone power is transforming its fortunes against Russia"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2026/05/31/ukraines-ramped-up-drone-power-is-transforming-its-fortunes-against-russia/

    This Financial Times article (bought by the Irish Times to republish) is interesting. Suggests there are some in Moscow hoping for an end to the war on the current front lines.

    Last year Ukraine would certainly have accepted, but by the time Putin decides to do so, might Ukraine decide they sufficiently have the upper hand that they might be able to push Russia out?

    They should demand return to original borders including Crimea. Bomb the crap out of Russia.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733
    malcolmg said:

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    She said it wasn't on the drive of her in-law's place; in other words at the front of the property, but away to the side, to that she 'might' not have seen it. Or if she did, that she thought it was the neighbours.
    Could someone please produce a ground plan of the place so we can test the likelihood of her statement?
    Surely the best way of testing the likelihood of that statement is to ask a jury to give an opinion
    They got away with stitching up Salmond , just made the damning stuff unadmissable and ignored the witnesses for the accused so not make chance of that.
    The evidence against erstwhile Russia Today presenter Eck, seemed quite compelling. Would he have been in greater jeopardy outside Scotland?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,097

    MattW said:



    Why is the Duchy exempt from cleaning it up?

    Is there an exception in EPA 1990 or something?

    This must be seriously obscure.

    In general, the monarch isn't subject to the courts. It's where the concept of Crown immunity comes from, and why Civil Servants technically don't have employment rights.

    So it's not so much that there is no duty to clean it up, more that the Duchy can't be made to do so.
    Despite generally lefty views I'm pretty neutral on the monarchy (they behave much as an elected non-party president would). But the Royal exemption from the law is indefensible and makes republicanism much more desirable.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,185
    dixiedean said:

    ohnotnow said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Curse of new thread.

    Guardian in Makerfield. Actually in Hindley, too.
    The Bickershaw industrial scale fly tipping would have been a national scandal had it happened anywhere near a media person's home.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/31/labour-have-lost-their-way-voters-in-makerfield-say-its-time-for-a-change

    What’s your take on who’s ahead at the moment?
    It's extremely close.
    It will turn on two things.
    The performance of Restore. And turnout. A high turnout may be good for Burnham given the GOTV advantage.
    Another point. Pensioners/ postal voters turnout. But, here, unlike many other places, voting Labour is more ingrained and automatic amongst the older generations.
    We'll see a high level of churn in both directions as the article suggests.
    I'd still be surprised if Burnham doesn't win. But I'm a lot less sure than before we started. Mainly because it was a straight Reform/Labour fight then.
    I asked anthropic's claude to do some digging around and it eventually spat this out :

    https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b833c111-1cf1-4c22-afbf-1f4dc9763314

    Asked gpt to do the same thing and it looked like it had done a better job, but then fell over when it tried to make it into html. AGI any day now...
    Thanks.
    It's that lead amongst over 55's (who vote) for Burnham that convinces me he'll win.
    Reform will need to maximise turnout amongst youngish men. Which requires a huge GOTV for plenty of habitual non voters.
    Tommy Robinson and his Army will no doubt get the young male vote out.

    It will be terrible for Farage though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488
    malcolmg said:

    "Ukraine’s ramped-up drone power is transforming its fortunes against Russia"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2026/05/31/ukraines-ramped-up-drone-power-is-transforming-its-fortunes-against-russia/

    This Financial Times article (bought by the Irish Times to republish) is interesting. Suggests there are some in Moscow hoping for an end to the war on the current front lines.

    Last year Ukraine would certainly have accepted, but by the time Putin decides to do so, might Ukraine decide they sufficiently have the upper hand that they might be able to push Russia out?

    They should demand return to original borders including Crimea. Bomb the crap out of Russia.
    How about the original original borders? Ukraine used to reach to the Caspian Sea...
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,131

    "Ukraine’s ramped-up drone power is transforming its fortunes against Russia"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2026/05/31/ukraines-ramped-up-drone-power-is-transforming-its-fortunes-against-russia/

    This Financial Times article (bought by the Irish Times to republish) is interesting. Suggests there are some in Moscow hoping for an end to the war on the current front lines.

    Last year Ukraine would certainly have accepted, but by the time Putin decides to do so, might Ukraine decide they sufficiently have the upper hand that they might be able to push Russia out?

    Interesting interviews on R4 1pm news, apparently Russia thought Trump would force Ukraine to capitulate, as that hasn't happened and Trump has lost interest, they're stuck with sacrificing troops in an endless war.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    malcolmg said:

    "Ukraine’s ramped-up drone power is transforming its fortunes against Russia"

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2026/05/31/ukraines-ramped-up-drone-power-is-transforming-its-fortunes-against-russia/

    This Financial Times article (bought by the Irish Times to republish) is interesting. Suggests there are some in Moscow hoping for an end to the war on the current front lines.

    Last year Ukraine would certainly have accepted, but by the time Putin decides to do so, might Ukraine decide they sufficiently have the upper hand that they might be able to push Russia out?

    They should demand return to original borders including Crimea. Bomb the crap out of Russia.
    One can hope so, but I doubt Crimea is ever coming back.

    I just hope Russia does not manage to increase it's own drone capability to catch up anytime soon - they are not totally stupid, and will be working on it I'm sure, but hopefully it takes quite some time. I'd read part of the problem for Ukraine is that it just doesn't have the manpower to fully exploit the weakening of some lines that their current drone advantage is giving them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    This is a fair criticism of the response to Blair.

    Does the British left, in its responses to Blair, see no need to reckon with the facts?

    On the best measure British income inequality is at its lowest since 1986; wealth inequality is also low by historical standards.

    Britain's problem is stagnation (and a housing shortage)

    https://x.com/ecurrnomics/status/2059730476189761731

    My criticism is that most of Blair's essay was vapid bilge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488
    kinabalu said:

    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.

    MAGA is me.
    Welcome to the board, Mr President.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    kinabalu said:

    MAGA was never about winning wars in the middle east. So no reason to think a calamity in Iran will change much.

    MAGA is me. Trump has said this and all indications are that he's correct. It's a personality cult in other words. And he does, tbf, have a strong personality. I find it utterly repellent, he has none of the traits I like or admire in a human being and just about all the ones I can't stand, but the cult members love him to bits. It's an unconditional and enduring love, a love that lasts forever, a love that has no past (preceding him). Can't say I understand it. Can't say I want to.
    I hope it dies without him, but it's consequences will be felt for a long time. They might break up a little to compete to see who is the Trumpiest, for a start.

    I do wonder if the Trump kids will try to 'lead' it after he eventually dies, but none of them have his level of horrible charisma.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    Sturgeon - "I don't have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome"

    Lawyer approved....

    Her memory really is shockingly bad.
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