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Labour – turning the corner – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,256
edited May 20 in General
Labour – turning the corner – politicalbetting.com

In a recent header, I suggested Labour should replace Sir Keir Starmer if they wanted to win the next election. It looks like the axe will fall after the Makerfield by-election, with Andy Burnham taking the crown, if he wins. If he loses, we could be looking at PM Miliband or Rayner.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,764
    E pluribus unum?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,186

    E pluribus unum?

    Starmer has Many, but he's not the One.

    Problem is I doubt if Burnham will be any better.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,618

    E pluribus unum?

    Insider posting
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,571
    Very close to the timings i suggested yesterday.

    I can see a window to a late summer 2027 GE , if the runes land right and the mood music is more positive.

    A small overall Labour majority with likely LD / Green support when needed could well see Farage throwing the dummy out!

    Tories under a sensible and competent Leader would then have at least a chance, the chance they don't currently have, of avoiding extinction and returning as the most credible right wing Party by 2033.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,695
    As an aside, within that story:

    “The King … can draw out those things that really pull us together,” he told CNN, as he paid tribute to the “incredible” defence and economic partnerships that “bind the US and UK”.
    Why are British diplomats bumping their gums on CNN?
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    In terms of Burnham ratings I think it was @HYUFD who posted that Burnham had positive favourability ratings in most parts of the country.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Isn’t that the deputy ambassador?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,186
    On topic, no leader in his senses will throw away a majority of over 150 for the possibility of a scraped win.

    Theresa May's incentive was the prospect of replacing a bare majority with a huge majority. The last politician to needlessly throw away such a majority under those circumstances was Baldwin in 1923, and he was rather lucky nobody could agree on an alternative leader.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,817

    Isn’t that the deputy ambassador?
    Yes
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,817
    ydoethur said:

    On topic, no leader in his senses will throw away a majority of over 150 for the possibility of a scraped win.

    Theresa May's incentive was the prospect of replacing a bare majority with a huge majority. The last politician to needlessly throw away such a majority under those circumstances was Baldwin in 1923, and he was rather lucky nobody could agree on an alternative leader.

    ...in his senses...

    Are you not seeing the problem here?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,186
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, no leader in his senses will throw away a majority of over 150 for the possibility of a scraped win.

    Theresa May's incentive was the prospect of replacing a bare majority with a huge majority. The last politician to needlessly throw away such a majority under those circumstances was Baldwin in 1923, and he was rather lucky nobody could agree on an alternative leader.

    ...in his senses...

    Are you not seeing the problem here?
    We're talking Burnham, not Lowe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    In terms of Burnham ratings I think it was @HYUFD who posted that Burnham had positive favourability ratings in most parts of the country.

    Because he's not very well known. Outside Manchester he was Minister for Health for a fairly short whole 16 years ago. Only in Mid Staffordshire will he be remembered in any way other than very vaguely.

    Once in office and making difficult decisions he's no longer a blank canvas and that becomes much harder to sustain.
    Yes, I think it will be a very short honeymoon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,764
    DougSeal said:

    E pluribus unum?

    Insider posting
    Efficient-market hypothesis.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,817
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    In terms of Burnham ratings I think it was @HYUFD who posted that Burnham had positive favourability ratings in most parts of the country.

    Because he's not very well known. Outside Manchester he was Minister for Health for a fairly short whole 16 years ago. Only in Mid Staffordshire will he be remembered in any way other than very vaguely.

    Once in office and making difficult decisions he's no longer a blank canvas and that becomes much harder to sustain.
    Yes, I think it will be a very short honeymoon.
    The best kind.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Donald Trump and sons granted ‘forever’ immunity from existing tax audits

    https://www.ft.com/content/57334fae-a475-4ab0-a202-8df3766927e4
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Chaos in Reform as Farage goes into hiding? The Guardian describes Farage’s disappearance and various changes within the party: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/19/nigel-farage-reform-uk-disappearance-politics
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,645

    As an aside, within that story:

    “The King … can draw out those things that really pull us together,” he told CNN, as he paid tribute to the “incredible” defence and economic partnerships that “bind the US and UK”.
    Why are British diplomats bumping their gums on CNN?
    Because it’s part of their job?

    In order to influence the leadership of the country you need to influence the ecosystem.

    (You might may an argument that CNN has limited influence on the current administration but I don’t think that was your point)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370

    As an aside, within that story:

    “The King … can draw out those things that really pull us together,” he told CNN, as he paid tribute to the “incredible” defence and economic partnerships that “bind the US and UK”.
    Why are British diplomats bumping their gums on CNN?
    Because it’s part of their job?

    In order to influence the leadership of the country you need to influence the ecosystem.

    (You might may an argument that CNN has limited influence on the current administration but I don’t think that was your point)
    Indeed.

    Ambassadors to the UK regularly appear on the BBC, Sky etc. Weird thing to object to.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,174
    How brave is Andy Burnham?

    If he wants a mandate for his new programme he'll have to call a General.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,174
    Taz said:

    In terms of Burnham ratings I think it was @HYUFD who posted that Burnham had positive favourability ratings in most parts of the country.

    No-one really knows him.

    It's projection.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,645

    Donald Trump and sons granted ‘forever’ immunity from existing tax audits

    https://www.ft.com/content/57334fae-a475-4ab0-a202-8df3766927e4

    It’s so blatant at some level you have to admire the chutzpah.

    But really, America, has it come to this?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,174
    My reading of Andy Burnham is that he's an ambitious careerist, but better at presentation and politics than Starmer.

    I don't expect radical left-wing stuff from him because if he tries that the markets and the electorate will rapidly boot him out of office.

    What he will do is make them think he's on their side, and be rather more convincing about it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Emissions don't affect the climate if they are outsourced donchaknow. Science innit.
    How’s about a little bit more of a contribution to unblocking the Straight of Hormuz, and a little bit less of a contribution to Putin’s coffers in the Kremlin to lob bombs at my friends in Ukraine?

    The drilling ban is ideological national suicide. The Norwegian government, also of the left at the moment, is permitting drilling like crazy.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,419
    edited May 20
    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,923
    What positive case could Burnham make for calling a snap election ?
    He's an unknown quantity for most of the electorate. With years to go and a large majority in Parliament, what's the case for us awarding him another few years to demonstrate of he's any good in power ?

    It doesn't exist from our point if view.

    Asking for a new, and longer "mandate" before he's done anything other than kick out his predecessor would be entirely self serving.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633

    Donald Trump and sons granted ‘forever’ immunity from existing tax audits

    https://www.ft.com/content/57334fae-a475-4ab0-a202-8df3766927e4

    And they claimed Pelosi was crooked.

    It’s like a ruddy Mafia clan.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    I had this discussion with my stepdad who, basically, wants higher taxes but others to pay them.

    He thinks the rich and wealthy should pay more. Including millionaires.

    When I pointed out with his property, DC pension pots and other savings/assets he’s a millionaire so he needs to stump up he was less keen. I’d guess it would mean a few less bottles of Jack Daniel’s a month.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,027
    Nigelb said:

    What positive case could Burnham make for calling a snap election ?
    He's an unknown quantity for most of the electorate. With years to go and a large majority in Parliament, what's the case for us awarding him another few years to demonstrate of he's any good in power ?

    It doesn't exist from our point if view.

    Asking for a new, and longer "mandate" before he's done anything other than kick out his predecessor would be entirely self serving.

    Given the man is entirely self serving, that would all fit right in...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,542
    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    They would really not have wanted to do this. The UK has always been one of the strongest supporters of the sanctions regime around Ukraine. They must have been presented with some extremely uncomfortable scenarios about the next couple of months as the stocks run down. As I said yesterday the sanctions regime is now largely composed of Ukrainian drones. Its increasingly effective.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,208
    Tankers exit Hormuz as Trump, Vance talk up Iran deal prospects
    Two Chinese tankers laden with oil exited the Strait of Hormuz, shipping data showed, brightening hopes that the conflict with ​Iran may soon be resolved after positive comments from the U.S. president and his deputy.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/tankers-exit-hormuz-trump-vance-talk-up-iran-deal-prospects-2026-05-20/ (£££)

    Huzzah for President Xi. (NB this is me not Reuters!)

    Trump goes to China to ask for help ending the Iran standoff. What does China get in return?

    Well, in a massive coincidence, USA & UK ease sanctions on Russian oil whose main buyer is China. China gets Iran to allow Chinese tankers through the Strait of Hormuz.

    Still, we must welcome peace in the Middle East so Iran can get on with its business of killing dissidents by the thousand.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    The way forward on property tax is probably to abolish (or at least substantially reduce) stamp duty, which among other things is a brake on labour mobility, and replace it with much higher council tax rates as each property is transacted. This also has the positive effect of directing the money to local rather than central government.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,208
    edited May 20
    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,174
    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    The obvious one is to raise top rate to 50%.

    Which would also be fucking stupid.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,016
    edited May 20
    Interesting article. I'm unconvinced by an early election. The downside risks are huge. The one example we have where it worked (2019) was where an election was presented as necessary to break a Parliamentary impasse, but that's not remotely an option when the Labour majority is in three figures. Although I suppose if the Lords does block legislation not in Starmer's manifesto (such as major devolution) then it becomes an option.

    The biggest problem for Britain is, I think, political. Someone has to convince the public that the trajectory over the last few decades (selling assets to fund spending) has been very damaging, that it is necessary to turn it around, that it's best done sooner rather than later, and that it requires everyone making sacrifices. It's a really hard sell given the political status quo, and of course people won't be willing to make sacrifices when they believe that others are not having to do so, or are taking advantage of the system (e.g. as with the boat crossings).

    I don't see Burnham attempting this. He's going to present some version of magical thinking, whereby he has painless solutions to deep-seated problems that all other politicians have willfully refused to implement. Meanwhile he tries to cobble together improvements that don't go far enough, constrained by fiscal reality and political dishonesty, in the hope that they will do just enough to win him reelection.

    Three years feels like a long time to keep the public onside with such a strategy.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    The way forward on property tax is probably to abolish (or at least substantially reduce) stamp duty, which among other things is a brake on labour mobility, and replace it with much higher council tax rates as each property is transacted. This also has the positive effect of directing the money to local rather than central government.
    At the same time scrap Stamp Duty on share transactions.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    From Faisal Islam

    NEW

    Inflation eases from 3.3% to 2.8% in year to April, with falls in domestic energy and other bills (water, VED) last month counteracted by a rise in petrol prices…

    Core inflation 2.5% vs 3.1%… services 3.2% vs 4.5% …

    Lowest services inflation since January 2022 - key indicator for Bank of England…

    Lowest core inflation since July 2021

    Good set of figures before the inevitable upwards turn from full impact of Iran war, especially on domestic bills.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    The obvious one is to raise top rate to 50%.

    Which would also be fucking stupid.
    All great ideas for helping Dubai bounce back hard from the current crisis in the region.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    From Faisal Islam

    NEW

    Inflation eases from 3.3% to 2.8% in year to April, with falls in domestic energy and other bills (water, VED) last month counteracted by a rise in petrol prices…

    Core inflation 2.5% vs 3.1%… services 3.2% vs 4.5% …

    Lowest services inflation since January 2022 - key indicator for Bank of England…

    Lowest core inflation since July 2021

    Good set of figures before the inevitable upwards turn from full impact of Iran war, especially on domestic bills.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,114

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Emissions don't affect the climate if they are outsourced donchaknow. Science innit.
    It's like someone on a diet who thinks stealing the fries or steak from someone else's plate doesn't count because *they* ordered a salad.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556
    edited May 20

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    The Gordon Brown 2009 strategy redux.

    OrangeManBad and the Joos did it, not our problem guv.

    At least Brown actually got involved in trying to fix the problem, rather than struggling his shoulders and complaining about the situation.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    Plenty of countries have higher tax rates in the rich than we do. We have in the past. This suggests it’s not some impossible or Herculean task to do.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    It’s not a binary choice. Both can be problems.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,027
    edited May 20
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,393
    Nigelb said:

    What positive case could Burnham make for calling a snap election ?
    He's an unknown quantity for most of the electorate. With years to go and a large majority in Parliament, what's the case for us awarding him another few years to demonstrate of he's any good in power ?

    It doesn't exist from our point if view.

    Asking for a new, and longer "mandate" before he's done anything other than kick out his predecessor would be entirely self serving.

    Self-serving, you say?

    Put like that, it's a dead cert.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    The Gordon Brown 2009 strategy redux.

    OrangeManBad and the Joos did it, not our problem guv.

    At least Brown actually got involved in trying to fix the problem, rather than struggling his shoulders and complaining about the situation.
    The OrangeManBad did do it. Your “funny” wordplay doesn’t change the facts.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    DavidL said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    A classic demonstration of why the problem is not just Trump. The GOP as a party have jumped the shark and become both irrational and unreliable. Trump is not just a short term nightmare, he is an indication of what is to come from a US that is totally self obsessed and frankly nuts. We must plan accordingly.

    Is Burnham going to allow the large increase in defence spending that was being mooted? It struck me yesterday that he was rather tying himself in knots between keeping Reeves' rules (to assuage the bond market and avoid becoming a second Truss) and no cuts. Where does the promised £18bn so urgently needed come from? I don't think he has an answer to this yet and it is one of the most pressing issues facing the government.
    The irony of the ‘Jump the Shark’ thing is Happy Days ran for a further six seasons and was still incredibly popular.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
    Business Rates (and Football TV charges) for Pubs are based on turnover. What that's telling me is that the pub was previously awful and now has decent management / turnover.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
    Business Rates (and Football TV charges) for Pubs are based on turnover. What that's telling me is that the pub was previously awful and now has decent management / turnover.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,542

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    They are both problems in their different ways. The absurd policies of Miliband have increased our exposure to the lunacies of Trump.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,174
    edited May 20
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    The obvious one is to raise top rate to 50%.

    Which would also be fucking stupid.
    All great ideas for helping Dubai bounce back hard from the current crisis in the region.
    It'd do that, and drive less work and employment in the country, and more movement from the private to the public sector, as some people just decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

    So I'd expect no boost to the public finances, and it'd probably make it even worse.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    The Gordon Brown 2009 strategy redux.

    OrangeManBad and the Joos did it, not our problem guv.

    At least Brown actually got involved in trying to fix the problem, rather than struggling his shoulders and complaining about the situation.
    We’re in a constrained supply situation we should be exploiting our own reserves. Not just for the fuel but the essential products like Helium, Fertiliser and so on for which we have no scalable alternatives currently.

    Whether or not it reduces prices it will increase global supply from a more stable,location.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,027
    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    That's a fair comment, although I think last time we did this I seem to recall discovering that to raise any meaningful revenue you have to hike the rates substantially for at least band D properties as there simply aren't very many in bands F and G. Putting in place bands "H, I and J" or equivalent may make you feel good politically but turns out to only be a few hundred K houses.

    Obviously an actual revaluation would help, the band D I'm buying in Derbyshire is worth about 30% of a average band D in Surrey.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,393
    edited May 20
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
    Business Rates (and Football TV charges) for Pubs are based on turnover. What that's telling me is that the pub was previously awful and now has decent management / turnover.
    Isn't the main issue the unwinding of the Covid-era discounts? It's (not that) amazing how quickly an emergency dispensation becomes the demanded normal.

    (See also: Triple Lock.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,542
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    A classic demonstration of why the problem is not just Trump. The GOP as a party have jumped the shark and become both irrational and unreliable. Trump is not just a short term nightmare, he is an indication of what is to come from a US that is totally self obsessed and frankly nuts. We must plan accordingly.

    Is Burnham going to allow the large increase in defence spending that was being mooted? It struck me yesterday that he was rather tying himself in knots between keeping Reeves' rules (to assuage the bond market and avoid becoming a second Truss) and no cuts. Where does the promised £18bn so urgently needed come from? I don't think he has an answer to this yet and it is one of the most pressing issues facing the government.
    The irony of the ‘Jump the Shark’ thing is Happy Days ran for a further six seasons and was still incredibly popular.
    Indeed and the lunacies of the GOP will go on beyond Trump and his chosen successor. Assumptions that our once reliable friend will return to normal are misplaced.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    The Gordon Brown 2009 strategy redux.

    OrangeManBad and the Joos did it, not our problem guv.

    At least Brown actually got involved in trying to fix the problem, rather than struggling his shoulders and complaining about the situation.
    We’re in a constrained supply situation we should be exploiting our own reserves. Not just for the fuel but the essential products like Helium, Fertiliser and so on for which we have no scalable alternatives currently.

    Whether or not it reduces prices it will increase global supply from a more stable,location.
    We should be exploiting them but there is a lead time to access them (with costs in 00 millions and years). The single purpose of this is so that we can buy jet fuel from India before someone else does.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So Ed Miliband wants to ban the UK from drilling for oil, but is happy to buy refined products from *RUSSIA*?

    https://x.com/harrietcross_mp/status/2056827039299014719

    Because prices are going up, because Trump attacked Iran. The problem is Trump, not Miliband.
    The Gordon Brown 2009 strategy redux.

    OrangeManBad and the Joos did it, not our problem guv.

    At least Brown actually got involved in trying to fix the problem, rather than struggling his shoulders and complaining about the situation.
    The OrangeManBad did do it. Your “funny” wordplay doesn’t change the facts.
    The question is what Starmer and Miliband are actually going to do about it.

    Their answer from yesterday is to ban drilling their own oil, choosing to buy it from Putin instead, while whistling into the sky about the situation in the Arabian Gulf.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,633
    edited May 20
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
    Business Rates (and Football TV charges) for Pubs are based on turnover. What that's telling me is that the pub was previously awful and now has decent management / turnover.
    I understand what it’s based on 🤷‍♂️ Turnover does not equal profit and it is still a staggering increase to find. Especially on top of the additional cost burdens imposed on them for employment and other issues they have had.

    You’d also be wrong with your assumptions. The pub, I have been frequenting for many years, has never been ‘awful’.

    Still its just a nice local.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    The obvious one is to raise top rate to 50%.

    Which would also be fucking stupid.
    All great ideas for helping Dubai bounce back hard from the current crisis in the region.
    It'd do that, and drive less work and employment in the country, and more movement from the private to the public sector, as some people just decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

    So I'd expect no boost to the public finances, and it'd probably make it even worse.
    VAT on school fees was the dry run for ideology over mathematics.

    They want to “Tax The Rich”, with no thought whatsoever as to 2nd and 3rd order effects on the wider economy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,438
    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,623
    edited May 20
    A
    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    Regardless of whether you think the underlying rates are too high, the fact we tax low value domestic property at a much higher rate than £100 million mansions, and we tax work (via NICs) at a higher rate than other sources of income, should both be fixed regardless.

    People are getting upset about the prospect of 50% income tax rates. My marginal tax rate is 56%. For people on UC, the rate is typically between 55% and 75%. NICs is only 2% over £50k, 8% under that. 50% already exists for large chunks of younger and poorer workers.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,027

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
    Yep, that works too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,208
    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556
    theProle said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    That's a fair comment, although I think last time we did this I seem to recall discovering that to raise any meaningful revenue you have to hike the rates substantially for at least band D properties as there simply aren't very many in bands F and G. Putting in place bands "H, I and J" or equivalent may make you feel good politically but turns out to only be a few hundred K houses.

    Obviously an actual revaluation would help, the band D I'm buying in Derbyshire is worth about 30% of a average band D in Surrey.
    The valuations are deliberately locally-based, by each council.

    Roughly:

    Band B is a two-bed apartment
    Band D is going to be your average house, 3bed and a small garden.
    Band F is a nice four-bed house
    Band G is a five-bed house or larger
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,419
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    These are the figures for property taxes as a %GDP from the OECD

    OECD average - 1.9%
    UK - 3.7%
    US - 2.8%
    France - 3.5%
    Germany - 0.9%
    Canada - 3.4%
    Japan - 2.6%
    Australia - 2.7%
    Netherlands - 1.2%

    https://www.compareyourcountry.org/tax-revenues/en/0/675+677+678+679+676+681/default

    And 12% stamp duty on top end transactions is I think about the highest tax rate in the world, only beaten by Belgium at 12.5% (federal+provincial) afaik. When you add to that clueless Rachel's revision of Council Tax from 2027 to soak high end property, you have a system that is very punitive.

    Funny how those who think that The Germans Do It Better never seem to want to cut our property taxes by more than 75% ...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,623
    edited May 20

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
    Some sort of max function? You get taxed on the max of profit, employees or property, with the rate for profit more generous? The latter two do have some merit to a limited extent - turfing out zombie firms from the high street, and boosting productivity by making capital investment more attractive.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    These are the figures for property taxes as a %GDP from the OECD

    OECD average - 1.9%
    UK - 3.7%
    US - 2.8%
    France - 3.5%
    Germany - 0.9%
    Canada - 3.4%
    Japan - 2.6%
    Australia - 2.7%
    Netherlands - 1.2%

    https://www.compareyourcountry.org/tax-revenues/en/0/675+677+678+679+676+681/default

    And 12% stamp duty on top end transactions is I think about the highest tax rate in the world, only beaten by Belgium at 12.5% (federal+provincial) afaik. When you add to that clueless Rachel's revision of Council Tax from 2027 to soak high end property, you have a system that is very punitive.

    Funny how those who think that The Germans Do It Better never seem to want to cut our property taxes by more than 75% ...
    Um I don't think there is anyone on here who thinks Stamp Duty is a decent tax - the only part that should be applied is on second and subsequent homes to discourage private landlords buying up all residential property..
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    These are the figures for property taxes as a %GDP from the OECD

    OECD average - 1.9%
    UK - 3.7%
    US - 2.8%
    France - 3.5%
    Germany - 0.9%
    Canada - 3.4%
    Japan - 2.6%
    Australia - 2.7%
    Netherlands - 1.2%

    https://www.compareyourcountry.org/tax-revenues/en/0/675+677+678+679+676+681/default

    And 12% stamp duty on top end transactions is I think about the highest tax rate in the world, only beaten by Belgium at 12.5% (federal+provincial) afaik. When you add to that clueless Rachel's revision of Council Tax from 2027 to soak high end property, you have a system that is very punitive.

    Funny how those who think that The Germans Do It Better never seem to want to cut our property taxes by more than 75% ...
    Um I don't think there is anyone on here who thinks Stamp Duty is a decent tax - the only part that should be applied is on second and subsequent homes to discourage private landlords buying up all residential property..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    That is Reuters’ framing of the story, yes.

    He did actually vote against the budget though, in the UK parliament he’d lose the whip for that.

    You can disagree as much as you like with the policy of the party you’ve been elected to represent, but for the important votes you’re expected to walk through the right lobby.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,438
    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
    Yep, that works too.
    If we want simple financial structures, reduced outsourcing and accountability, we need to make doing the simple thing pay slightly better.

    Then it will happen like an avalanche.

    Note that Genfell was, in large part, about a pyramid of contracting. Where turning the screws on the contractor below you was the way to make money. So by the bottom of the chain, you are squeezing so hard that only the scumbags can make money. Strangely….
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,400
    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    These are the figures for property taxes as a %GDP from the OECD

    OECD average - 1.9%
    UK - 3.7%
    US - 2.8%
    France - 3.5%
    Germany - 0.9%
    Canada - 3.4%
    Japan - 2.6%
    Australia - 2.7%
    Netherlands - 1.2%

    https://www.compareyourcountry.org/tax-revenues/en/0/675+677+678+679+676+681/default

    And 12% stamp duty on top end transactions is I think about the highest tax rate in the world, only beaten by Belgium at 12.5% (federal+provincial) afaik. When you add to that clueless Rachel's revision of Council Tax from 2027 to soak high end property, you have a system that is very punitive.

    Funny how those who think that The Germans Do It Better never seem to want to cut our property taxes by more than 75% ...
    I think those figures includes business rates.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,623
    edited May 20
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    The comment was about residential property and the idea that at the top end it's taxed too much. Sorry but £3,000 a year on a £100m Hyde Park penthouse isn't too much..

    Business rates is a different matter, the 2026 rates are going to create a whole set of problems...
    A pub local to me is seeing its rates go from £6,000 to £32,000 a year.

    Others round here are seeing small increases but that is a staggering increase.
    Business Rates (and Football TV charges) for Pubs are based on turnover. What that's telling me is that the pub was previously awful and now has decent management / turnover.
    They aren’t - because if you don’t generate any revenue you still get taxed. It’s based on a slightly bonkers estimate of rental value, which includes a rough estimate of how much you could earn, not what you actually do.

    But as we’ve discussed previously, the whole thing is broken because even property in the most deprived parts of Scotland incurs significant NDR, which makes zero sense. I think it’s a malign combination of a rubbish tax system + some dodgy accounting by property owners.

    Tempting just to bin it entirely, but then you do end up with High Streets dominated by empty shells. That’s why Malmesbury is right about some hybrid system.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,229
    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Do you think that the millions of dollars pumped into the most expensive primary in history by an Israeli billionaire is a good or a bad thing?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,196
    Wor Rachel smashing it for 6 yet again
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,229
    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Oh, I think a bit of ‘I’m only providing balance’ disavowal goes on.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,196

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Oh, I think a bit of ‘I’m only providing balance’ disavowal goes on.
    He refuses to engage in anything that points out contradictions in his positions, for example Trump’s rimming of Putin and distain for Ukraine.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 2,027
    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
    Some sort of max function? You get taxed on the max of profit, employees or property, with the rate for profit more generous? The latter two do have some merit to a limited extent - turfing out zombie firms from the high street, and boosting productivity by making capital investment more attractive.
    That doesn't work, the whole point of my suggestion is to prevent firms getting clobbered by property taxes when trying to expand - going for a "best of three" makes it horribly worse in the expansion phase, when you've taken on increased liabilities, but the increased revenue isn't there yet.

    I'm not sure how you differentiate between zombie outfits and people trying to grow a business - I took over what was pretty much a zombie company five years ago, have fixed the fundamentals and am now growing aggressively, but I've never made much of a profit, because all the "profit" goes straight back in as investment. You can see it in my employee numbers and turnover, but neither of those are completely reliable indicators.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,623
    theProle said:

    Eabhal said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    How do we have some of the highest level of property taxes at the top end in the world. We have high transaction costs (which should go) but our taxes for owning an expensive property are low
    Our business rates taxation is amazingly punitive - basically the government runs off with ~50% of the market rent every month.
    It's one of the factors that make expanding a business incredibly difficult as if you buy better premises you promptly get smacked for this massive deadweight cost before you've any prospects of increased revenue. The valuations are also terribly random, and very hard to challenge - eg I'm eyeing up some potential business premises at the moment - the site is worth about £400k in the real world (thus implied rent of about £40k)but somehow attracts a £100k pa business rate payment - I suspect this was a significant factor in the previous occupier going bust.

    It also creates loads of perverse incentives to do things like knock down perfect usable buildings you're not currently using and can't easily let, as it's based on the developed value of a site, not the land value.

    It should be entirely abolished and replaced with higher taxation on profits, or even VAT (at least you have to be making sales to collect it) if the government wants business growth to occur. If they are worried about Amazon et-all gaming the system by remitting profit abroad for licensing or whatever just have different rules over say £100 million turnover.
    A better solution - if you run one company, U.K. based, simple financial structure, you can use profit based taxation.

    If you want to run the double Dutch, with 432 holding companies, which all lose money trading with each other, go for it. You will be under the old system.

    Over time, reduce the tax on the first and raise them on the second.
    Some sort of max function? You get taxed on the max of profit, employees or property, with the rate for profit more generous? The latter two do have some merit to a limited extent - turfing out zombie firms from the high street, and boosting productivity by making capital investment more attractive.
    That doesn't work, the whole point of my suggestion is to prevent firms getting clobbered by property taxes when trying to expand - going for a "best of three" makes it horribly worse in the expansion phase, when you've taken on increased liabilities, but the increased revenue isn't there yet.

    I'm not sure how you differentiate between zombie outfits and people trying to grow a business - I took over what was pretty much a zombie company five years ago, have fixed the fundamentals and am now growing aggressively, but I've never made much of a profit, because all the "profit" goes straight back in as investment. You can see it in my employee numbers and turnover, but neither of those are completely reliable indicators.
    Yes good point.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556
    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,556

    Sandpit said:

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
    Announcing a cure for cancer is exactly something he would do. Of course announcing something is not the same as having it.
    Thus immediately proving my point.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,229
    Sandpit said:

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
    BINGO!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,196
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
    Announcing a cure for cancer is exactly something he would do. Of course announcing something is not the same as having it.
    Thus immediately proving my point.
    Except I haven’t. Why do you expect “the left” to operate on blind trust when Trump has a history of just talking utter shite.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,570

    Sandpit said:

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
    Announcing a cure for cancer is exactly something he would do. Of course announcing something is not the same as having it.
    I very much enjoy the Sandpit outrider contributions precisely because they are so rare in the British context, and I think they come from the heart. A Brit fully emotionally invested in US politics. The articulation of why is also insightful: its classic the enemy’s enemy is my friend.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,570

    Sandpit said:

    MelonB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Or it shows GOP activists and PACs have been captured by Trump.
    Sandpit is remarkably loyal to Trump and MAGA, in the face of all comers and even when their ideology is at odds with his (e.g. Ukraine). I’m not sure there’s a more completely, full-spectrum loyal poster to an individual politician or movement on PB. Not even BigG. If anything the norm is for posters conveniently to disavow allegiance, St Peter style, when the cock crows.
    Not at all, I don’t even particularly like Trump. I just push back against the prevailing narritive that everything he does is bad, or that he’s only doing something because of some ulterior motive.

    I’m firmly of the opinion that, were he to announce a cure for cancer, the US media and most of this forum would be trying to present it negatively.

    I’ve definitely critised Trump on Ukraine, as I did with Biden before him. They have both been weak in different ways, and I don’t like Bessent’s trading of Russian oil just as I don’t like Miliband’s doing the same.

    My over-riding opinion on US politics is on the other side, that the Democrats have been captured by wokery, communism, and increasingly antisemitism. They’re starting to look like the Greens in the UK, with the mayor of New York talking about opening state-run grocery stores, and the mayor of LA talking about giving free dentistry to illegal immigrant homeless meth-heads living on the streets.

    Anyway, work to do!
    Announcing a cure for cancer is exactly something he would do. Of course announcing something is not the same as having it.
    I very much enjoy the Sandpit outrider contributions precisely because they are so rare in the British context, and I think they come from the heart. A Brit fully emotionally invested in US politics. The articulation of why is also insightful: its classic the enemy’s enemy is my friend.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Sandpit said:

    Trump purges another Republican critic with Massie defeat in Kentucky

    U.S. President Donald Trump scored another victory in his campaign to punish disloyal Republicans on Tuesday as Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky lost his primary race, underscoring ​the risks for lawmakers who defy Trump.

    Massie, who angered Trump by leading a push to release Justice Department files tied to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and emerged as ‌an outspoken critic of the war with Iran, was defeated by Ed Gallrein, a former Navy SEAL backed by the president and bolstered by heavy spending by pro-Israel groups.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/trump-targets-massie-tuesday-primary-purge-republican-critics-intensifies-2026-05-19/ (£££)

    The voters of Kentucky’s 4th District decided to get rid of the guy who voted against the budget in Congress, and was more interested in personal grandstanding than representing the views of his constituents.
    Thank heavens Trump never descends to personal grandstanding. For heavens’ sake, don’t you ever get embarrassed trotting out these pro-Trump lines?

    Massie was far from perfect, but at least he did something about opposing the sexual abuse of children.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,571

    Wor Rachel smashing it for 6 yet again

    If Burnham IS the new Leader and he has real BALLS, he will keep Rachel in No 11 Downing Street.

    Undoubtedly she made mistakes early, but did SHE or was it driven by Treasury / McSweeney / SKS fear!

    In the past 6-9 months she has made sound decisions, she ha clearly got the confidence of the markets and prior to Trump/Netayahu attacks on Iran almost EVERY economic indicator was running in the right direction.

    I believe if it is burnham, he would be economically wise to retain here and actually Politically wise, don't rock the markets, show confidence in here, especially as he's tied himself it seems to her fiscal rules.

    I dont see a better fit other than Darren Jones in the role and he'd not deviate much from her Policy.

    Its the MESSAGING that is key as much as the policy and political nous Burnham may have surely has does have that Starmer has never had.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,693
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    "The problem is how you define “the rich.” The top 1% have good tax lawyers"

    That's one of the problems. The other problems with taxing the rich, however defined, are that

    - they are key to the country's savings and entrepreneurial investment decisions, so you damage long run economic growth
    - they are unusually internationally mobile, so they can just leave, as around 25,000 millionaires have since Labour took office
    - much of their wealth is tied up in primary residences, which are quite difficult to tax beyond a certain small amount, because they doesn't directly generate cash, while such property transactions can be taxed but doing so gums up labour mobility, and anyway the UK already has some of the highest property taxes, especially at the high end, in the world
    - previous governments over the past generation have used this expedient many times anyway.

    Overall, taxing the rich more than the heavy burden they already pay is a terrible idea, economically destructive and financially counter-productive. So I imagine the new Labour leader will probably jump at it.

    The obvious one is to raise top rate to 50%.

    Which would also be fucking stupid.
    All great ideas for helping Dubai bounce back hard from the current crisis in the region.
    It'd do that, and drive less work and employment in the country, and more movement from the private to the public sector, as some people just decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

    So I'd expect no boost to the public finances, and it'd probably make it even worse.
    VAT on school fees was the dry run for ideology over mathematics.

    They want to “Tax The Rich”, with no thought whatsoever as to 2nd and 3rd order effects on the wider economy.
    The much predicted terrible negative effects of VAT on school fees never actually materialised.
This discussion has been closed.