And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
Algakirk is one of the more sensible posters here. But this ‘everyone I disagree with is Hitler’ stuff is tedious and abusing voters is no way to win them back.
I don't think it is abusing voters to point out that Reform's policies, such as deporting immigrants who have the legal right to remain in Britain, is by any objective measure a far-right policy.
Similarly, the idea that Farage's corrupt personality cult is at all like the Conservative Party of the 80s is absurd.
Obviously the failures of the established parties to do what they say they will do - such as the Tories persistent failure to hit their own tens of thousands net migration target, the Lib Dems broken pledge over tuition fees, or Labour's failure to have any substantive plan to change anything - will understandably provoke voters to look to more extreme alternatives. I don't blame the voters for that, but they shouldn't kid themselves about what they are voting for.
Their policy on ILR is cruel and nasty. Saying we won't give out ILR to anyone else in the future is one thing... actively stripping away people's legal rights is another. If Reform don't collapse and descend into in-fighting (which is probable) when in power, we may well find out what Viktor Orban could have got up if he wasn't bound by the EU.
I remain unclear as to where people dreamed up their 1,000 seats for the Greens predictions, but several hundred new councillors across the country and a lot of second places makes for a very interesting change in their position through the rest of the Parliament.
This is also notably better for the Tories than it might have been.
And Labour haven't reached their floor yet. St Helen's is the exemplar of what happens when the floodgates finally burst.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Spot on, except that 'fascism' is a long way distant from a loose term like 'far right'. SFAICS Britt doesn't use the term 'right' at all. I don't think Farage qualifies, but, as with Trump, stuff changes and Farage's instincts are sufficiently Trumpian that I would not trust him with power over any one of your list of fourteen.
As to Iran, North Korea and Russia, none get the starting gates of being anything other than wicked and corrupt tyrannies. If that list of 14 is what fascism is, then they qualify.
So I had advocated that Blackley and Middleton South might be the seat for Andy Burnham. But pretty much every ward contested on Manchester and Rochdale councils in that constituency have gone fucker.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Local context matters. I don't think Reform are far right as it happens, but you don't have to be not obviously fascist/communist to be far right/far left for the national area. Left and right are too loosely defined to do otherwise, as algakirk notes.
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
As to details, I think we shall have to wait and see. In part I am with you, and have been arguing for months on PB that Reform would govern as nationalist social democrats.
However, the case for a loose term like 'far right' is in the unclarity about these sorts of question:
Have Reform given any indication that in their quasi ICE plans they intend fully to adhere to the rule of law and the decisions of courts? Do they intend that everyone will be treated with fairness, justice and dignity? If they are not far right, why do they keep indicating that they don't plan to let courts, tribunals and justice get in the way of mass deportations? Are they totally committed to the separation of powers and UK treaty obligations? Are there racial, religious and ethnic undertones and overtones to their policies?
If you can show me Reform's passion for the rule of law and the separation of powers I will concede the 'far right' label.
By the way I am an unwoke traditionalist social conservative who, until 2024, voted Tory for 50 years and voted for Brexit.
Are Reform really so far from the mainstream on this? Both traditional main parties have spoken in similar ways over the last few decades.
Olivia Blake, the Labour MP for Sheffield Hallam, has said the PM “needs to think about his position” and that there needs to be an “orderly plan” for a post-Starmer Labour party.
“We need an orderly plan,” she told the Independent.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Is the "Reform aren't right wing" debate an updated version of the "Nazis were actually socialists" claim that got much airing on here?
You are misquoting the debate. The issue is whether or not they are 'Far Right' not just 'Right'.
Quite so, and the debate is ludicrous. And actually quite insulting to people who are, right now, suffering and dying under real far right regimes. The thousands of slaughtered young protestors in Iran, the hundreds of thousands of dead young men in Russia
Imagine what they would think of this whining about the "evil Nazi Reform party". It is crass
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
Indeed. The far right has things like paramilitary wings, and armed thugs that assault enemies. They overturn elections and end democracy. They build huge prisons and intern people without trial, those that don't get shot in cold blood. For what a far right party looks like, examine a country like Iran, or, increasingly, Putin's Russia
Farage takes dodgy donations, drinks a few pints, and suggests leaving the ECHR
Statements like @algarkirk's are ridiculous childish CRINGE. Get a fucking grip. And let's hope an actual far right ruling party doesn't come along to teach us what it actually feels like to be ruled by the "far right"
From a Centrist Dad's perspective Reform are far right. Rupert Low by the way is even further to the right. It depends on one's starting perspective. Wasn't someone in Trump's Cabinet calling Starmer a Communist, or similar, last week.
Which just goes to show the Centrist Dads are stupid twerps. Which, to be fair, is no big surprise
If Reform are "far right", with their evil policy of - checks notes - deporting foreign criminals, how do the Centrist Dads describe the regime in Tehran?
The regime in Tehran is a religious fundamentalist death cult. Give your head a wobble.
It is Islamofascism. It is very definitely "far right", but with added religious gibberish
They aren't very keen on private enterprise or property rights, so why aren't they hard left?
Not convinced the left/right descriptors are very helpful. They hark back to simpler times, where the left were for public ownership and high taxes and public spending, and the right for the opposite. Nowadays, not so much, and stretching it to international assessments even less.
The reason Reform gets called far right when the Tories aren't is that Reform has attracted some very angry individuals whose commitment to fairness is doubtful. One can always find someone who is even more extreme, but I think a shaky commitment to fairness and democracy is what separates far right and far left from everyone else.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Would you say the Thatcher Government was 'Far Right'? They ticked almost all of the boxes you list - some even more so than Reform.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Would you say the Thatcher Government was 'Far Right'? They ticked almost all of the boxes you list - some even more so than Reform.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
Is Newcastle going to set a new record? Halfway through and not a single Labour or Conservative councillor elected. Has that happened before anywhere in England since the 19th Century?
If you mean large city then possibly not, but if you mean council then Richmond already did that overnight (all LD).
So all the other parties agree - Ricmond is where all the asylum seekers are going to be housed.
Oh, the howling...
The government houses asylum seekers in places where it is cheap to house asylum seekers.
Those hotels: they became asylum seeker accomodation because the owners couldn't make money from them being regular hotels, and because you couldn't make money converting them to homes.
If you want to house asylum seekers in Richmond you will need to pay market rates. And markets rates are going to be at least 10x as much as in depressed areas of the North West.
So, is the plan for Reform to spend massively more on housing asylum seekers than the Labour and Conservative governments spent? (Plus, won't the pull of the UK be much greater for asylum seekers if they know they're going to be housed in London, where the informal economy is strongest?)
No. The plan is to massively crash house prices in Richmond.
Yeah, I get it, you house the asylum seekers there, and therefore property prices fall.
But that still requires you to find someone to rent you a hotel or ten. You're still going to be paying up. And what if the price doesn't move down? Or if the asylum seekers discover they can do arbitrage with students: they get 300 quid in cash a week, and the student gets their place in the aslyum seeker hotel.
Under a law passed Sunak (I think), Planning Uplift on land purchase by government can be omitted. That is, if the government (local or national) wants to buy some land for development, they don't have to pay the full market price for land with planning permission, if they don't want to. Needs the Home Sec to sign off, IIRC.
So buy some fields on the edge of Richmond for the price of agricultural land. Install a pile of portacabin type accommodation - you can stack portacabins in a frame. Often done for building sites in London. Insanely ugly.
Would end up being an expensive nonsense. But "Own The Libtards".
Are there any fields on the edge of Richmond? There is the meadow at Petersham I suppose. Or maybe we could put it in the Old Deer Park. Or the Green. Or Kew Gardens.
There's plenty of green bits. All you need is a government that doesn't give a shit about anything but being a bit nasty.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Would you say the Thatcher Government was 'Far Right'? They ticked almost all of the boxes you list - some even more so than Reform.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
Which do you feel they tick more than Reform?
Suppression of the Unions, Corporate power protected, Obsession with Crime and Punishment.
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
As to details, I think we shall have to wait and see. In part I am with you, and have been arguing for months on PB that Reform would govern as nationalist social democrats.
However, the case for a loose term like 'far right' is in the unclarity about these sorts of question:
Have Reform given any indication that in their quasi ICE plans they intend fully to adhere to the rule of law and the decisions of courts? Do they intend that everyone will be treated with fairness, justice and dignity? If they are not far right, why do they keep indicating that they don't plan to let courts, tribunals and justice get in the way of mass deportations? Are they totally committed to the separation of powers and UK treaty obligations? Are there racial, religious and ethnic undertones and overtones to their policies?
If you can show me Reform's passion for the rule of law and the separation of powers I will concede the 'far right' label.
By the way I am an unwoke traditionalist social conservative who, until 2024, voted Tory for 50 years and voted for Brexit.
Are Reform really so far from the mainstream on this? Both traditional main parties have spoken in similar ways over the last few decades.
Home secretary accuses judges of 'subverting' democracy and vows to introduce legislation to restrict human rights of offenders
Maybe. I shall stick to the view that the non-extremes of left, right and centre are genuine and committed in their boring and worthy view that the rule of law and the separation of powers of government, legislature and judiciary is central to a working liberal democracy. I believe that all derogations from a pattern of this sort involves the exercise arbitrary and unchecked and uncheckable power, including by bad people. And that terms like 'far left' and 'far right' are reasonable descriptions of such movements.
The Greens seem to have broken through in Cambridge, too. Knocked the LDs into 3rd.
Time for people to stop pretending Ed Davey's a good party leader just because he's a nice chap.
Obvioius not done enough fire walks and sky diving stunts during the campaign.
They clearly have no strategy to exploit the fragmentation of the vote. Modest gains 2 years in looks business as usual for them, in most unusual times.
On the other hand, maybe they are doing remarkably well to hang on to 14% of the vote when they could so easily be lost in the tides.
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
Indeed. The far right has things like paramilitary wings, and armed thugs that assault enemies. They overturn elections and end democracy. They build huge prisons and intern people without trial, those that don't get shot in cold blood. For what a far right party looks like, examine a country like Iran, or, increasingly, Putin's Russia
Farage takes dodgy donations, drinks a few pints, and suggests leaving the ECHR
Statements like @algarkirk's are ridiculous childish CRINGE. Get a fucking grip. And let's hope an actual far right ruling party doesn't come along to teach us what it actually feels like to be ruled by the "far right"
From a Centrist Dad's perspective Reform are far right. Rupert Low by the way is even further to the right. It depends on one's starting perspective. Wasn't someone in Trump's Cabinet calling Starmer a Communist, or similar, last week.
Which just goes to show the Centrist Dads are stupid twerps. Which, to be fair, is no big surprise
If Reform are "far right", with their evil policy of - checks notes - deporting foreign criminals, how do the Centrist Dads describe the regime in Tehran?
The regime in Tehran is a religious fundamentalist death cult. Give your head a wobble.
It is Islamofascism. It is very definitely "far right", but with added religious gibberish
They aren't very keen on private enterprise or property rights, so why aren't they hard left?
Not convinced the left/right descriptors are very helpful. They hark back to simpler times, where the left were for public ownership and high taxes and public spending, and the right for the opposite. Nowadays, not so much, and stretching it to international assessments even less.
The reason Reform gets called far right when the Tories aren't is that Reform has attracted some very angry individuals whose commitment to fairness is doubtful. One can always find someone who is even more extreme, but I think a shaky commitment to fairness and democracy is what separates far right and far left from everyone else.
But I see absolutely no evidence that Reform have a "shaky commitment" to democracy. Why would they? Farage is BRILLIANT at democracy. He constantly outperforms everyone else at winning democratic votes (and referendums). It is his metier
He does it by being a chancer and a populist, but he is very definitely a democrat
Ask yourself who wanted these local elections postponed yet again? Not him
Is it my imagination, or is this an amazing night for Reform, and a slightly disappointing one for the Greens?
Some of the forecasts had the Greens coming in with a seat count around 1,000 - and challenging the LibDems and Labour for second place. As it is, they look likely to come in fifth.
I think the better results for Greens are expected later, but it does look like they've come in at the low end of what was a broad probability range.
From what prime who have been reporting on detailed results have been saying it looks like the Greens have had lots of good seconds - falling just short.
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
As to details, I think we shall have to wait and see. In part I am with you, and have been arguing for months on PB that Reform would govern as nationalist social democrats.
However, the case for a loose term like 'far right' is in the unclarity about these sorts of question:
Have Reform given any indication that in their quasi ICE plans they intend fully to adhere to the rule of law and the decisions of courts? Do they intend that everyone will be treated with fairness, justice and dignity? If they are not far right, why do they keep indicating that they don't plan to let courts, tribunals and justice get in the way of mass deportations? Are they totally committed to the separation of powers and UK treaty obligations? Are there racial, religious and ethnic undertones and overtones to their policies?
If you can show me Reform's passion for the rule of law and the separation of powers I will concede the 'far right' label.
By the way I am an unwoke traditionalist social conservative who, until 2024, voted Tory for 50 years and voted for Brexit.
Are Reform really so far from the mainstream on this? Both traditional main parties have spoken in similar ways over the last few decades.
Home secretary accuses judges of 'subverting' democracy and vows to introduce legislation to restrict human rights of offenders
Maybe. I shall stick to the view that the non-extremes of left, right and centre are genuine and committed in their boring and worthy view that the rule of law and the separation of powers of government, legislature and judiciary is central to a working liberal democracy. I believe that all derogations from a pattern of this sort involves the exercise arbitrary and unchecked and uncheckable power, including by bad people. And that terms like 'far left' and 'far right' are reasonable descriptions of such movements.
But our constitution is based on a fusion of political powers in parliament. When Reform say they want to do something and say that they won't let judges et al get in the way, I read this as a commitment to change the law where necessary. What else could it mean?
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Depends what part of Brum,
When I was down there for a Blues game it was very flaggy there too. But those were Palestine flags.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Would you say the Thatcher Government was 'Far Right'? They ticked almost all of the boxes you list - some even more so than Reform.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
I'd agree with your conclusion. I'd also point out that as a political vehicle now it may be different in a decades time, so if we enter a period of Reform government it could end up another SDP type party thru to a very hard right party rather than the current kind of far righty but not fully committed.
I don't think Thatchers governments were far right, no. Elections were free, fair and contested, won on arguments more than scapegoating. Police were supported strongly and sometimes illegally but also constrained by things like the introduction of PACE. Their main focus was imo on the economy, employment and living standards. Some of their policies and actions, possibly very right wing, but as a whole, it's a definite not far right from me.
The Greens seem to have broken through in Cambridge, too. Knocked the LDs into 3rd.
Time for people to stop pretending Ed Davey's a good party leader just because he's a nice chap.
Ye Gods .. the eighth election in a row where the Lib Dems make progress, the like of which Labour and the Tories can only dream of .. I'll take Ed Davey any day of the week thanks...
Liz Kendall re PM future: "He's not going to go, and he's not going to set a timetable. People want us focused on their jobs and their future, not our jobs and our future."
Actually I will end my contribution, for now, with something ecumenical and positive
The last two days have been epochal in British politics as we see the old order genuinely crumble
You might have expected this forum to collapse into bitterness and anger, yet not. The debate has been civilised, animated, engaging, and clever. And has provided results faster than either Sky or the BBC
A big thankyou to the mods @TSE and @rcs1000. And on that note of sentimental flattery, I really am headed to the shops, in the sweet spring sun. Anon
And for all the people suggesting the Tories are doing spectacularly poorly and how this is terrible, just a few weeks ago lots of people (including on here) were suggesting they could end up fifth on NEV behind the Lib Dems and Greens because of the by election result. Overall I think Kemi has had a reasonably good result, 20% NEV and second place with a few high profile council gains is more than enough to keep her in place and keep building a solid policy base and support for a smaller state and lower taxes.
On the one hand, it's better than Labour. On the other hand, 20% (if that's where it ends) is still terrible for an opposition party, particularly with an unpopular government and - if you view politics through some kind of left/right split - puts them solidly in second place on that side of politics. So if you're right-inclined, why vote Tory rather than Reform, who appear to have a better chance of winning? If you're left-inclined, Labour are still the most obvious with a chance to win in most seats. Labour may well lose the next GE, but they don't look like getting replaced as the main party of the left at present.
FWIW, I'd rather Labour got usurped as the main party on the left than the Tories as the main party on the right*, so this isn't my hopes talking. The Tory hope, which is not implausible, is Reform implosion/decline and the last GE results still showing them, to most people, as main challenger in many seats.
*due to the candidates to be usurper
But for the Tories it's a 3 or 4% swing over three years required from Reform to get back into the lead as "main party on the right", for Labour they need to take votes from Reform and from the Greens. The Tory party doesn't need to move in two directions to get in the high 20s, it just needs to stake a claim to the centre right. Labour has to get socially conservative voters back from Reform who want zero migrants and it needs to win socially liberal voters from the Greens who want a multicultural utopia. The path back to power for the Tories is easier than it is for Labour to hold on.
It's a fair point and certainly doable, though there is also risk on the Tory left/liberal wing in that approach, particularly if the Lib Dems wake up, smell the coffee and get a decent leader.
Labour can squeeze Green and LD, probably, in a GE. Particularly if either Reform, a Reform-lite Tory party or a pact between the two look like serious contenders to win.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Labour are fucked, under current leadership at least. But probably, at worst, in the sense of a terrible defeat similar to the Tories in 2024. The Tories can come back, but they also could, potentially, be replace dby Reform. It's existential in a way that it probably isn't for Labour. Tories have a better chance of being in government than Labour after the next GE, but they also (imho) have a higher chance than Labour of not being a major party (i.e. neither in government nor Opposition). One or other of Con and Ref have to fail, they have to have some kind of agreement, or they split the vote horribly and potentially let Labour through as a minority - depending on how split the left vote is too.
Reform without Farage is a busted flush.
The Tories just need to hold on
People said that about the Nats and Salmond. Then Sturgeon showed up
One of Farage's jobs in the next few years is to find some successors, and then they can really take over
Doesn’t it bother you that Reform isn’t a proper political party where you can actually remove the leader . There’s no mechanism to remove Farage and he could run around no 10 with his pants on his head and couldn’t be ousted !
Misleading. Farage as PM can be removed by two time honoured ways: failing to have the confidence of the house, and losing a general election. The internal things of party organisation as long as they are within the law are not among our constitutional safeguards. Nor should they be. If voters are daft enough to put him there in 2029, fair play to him we shall have to rely on our traditional safeguards.
he has about 26% support. he can only become PM if the 74% others contest each other instead of combating the far right.
I'm sorry but Reform aren't the far right. Like at all. They're social conservatives and nationalists but absolutely not far right. The BNP and EDL were far right, Reform is what the Tories were in the 80s but slightly more socially conservative and slightly less free market favourable.
It's stupid shit like this which gets people to vote Reform in the first place. Calling people who vote for Reform thick, ugly, far right or fascist isn't going to win them back however much it makes you feel good about yourself.
Algakirk is one of the more sensible posters here. But this ‘everyone I disagree with is Hitler’ stuff is tedious and abusing voters is no way to win them back.
I don't think it is abusing voters to point out that Reform's policies, such as deporting immigrants who have the legal right to remain in Britain, is by any objective measure a far-right policy.
Similarly, the idea that Farage's corrupt personality cult is at all like the Conservative Party of the 80s is absurd.
Obviously the failures of the established parties to do what they say they will do - such as the Tories persistent failure to hit their own tens of thousands net migration target, the Lib Dems broken pledge over tuition fees, or Labour's failure to have any substantive plan to change anything - will understandably provoke voters to look to more extreme alternatives. I don't blame the voters for that, but they shouldn't kid themselves about what they are voting for.
A substantial minority of Reform -maybe 40%- is right wing 80s Conservatives.
But there's also 40% of the party that is left wing 80s Labour voters.
Someone is going to be disappointed.
The 80s were 40 years ago. We've all* changed a lot since then, particularly as the world has changed.
If identity politics is now more important to these voters than it was then they might be able to bear a bit of disappointment in other policy areas.
Fewer PB Centrist Dads claiming that Farage is a total and perpetual loser, I note
When you step back, what he has done - AGAIN - is quite astonishing
Reform will be running a lot of councils after today.
The exposure will begin.
You've spelt ruining wrong.
I remember all this hysteria after the locals last year. I have now lived in a Ref County Council area for a year. It's difficult to identify any obvious improvements, but it's also difficult to identify any change at-all. I've certainly not noticed anything negative either.
They've managed to increase council tax by less than the national average, which is a small win I suppose.
All the doom and gloom that everything will fall apart in weeks has been complete bunkum. The biggest local government "scandal" in my area involves the Labour run District Council (which will almost certainly go Reform if any more elections occur before it is abolished), where they are trying with unseamly haste and with no particularly convincing reasoning to sell off the Town Hall rather cheaply to a property developer who one suspects has been very "friendly" towards a number of the councillors.
One of the common features of the Reform Councils (judging by my local 2 or 3, and accounts of others) is a rabbit-in-the-headlights freeze for 6 or 9 months, and a fair amount of running around in circles, because there are a lot of unjustified assumptions, little experience, less preparation, followed by the legal requirements eventually hitting like a freight train when the budget process comes around.
It will be interesting to see if this pattern is repeated.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Flags, eh? Good start.
Have you ever been abroad? There are national flags everywhere.
Got a bit of a shock driving through Birmingham, it seems to be flaggier than the Brexity parts of Essex - its as reliable a sign of voting as a Gails for the LDs.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Would you say the Thatcher Government was 'Far Right'? They ticked almost all of the boxes you list - some even more so than Reform.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
One could argue Thatcher took down the Unions because they took down Heath ( and ironically Callaghan) and with the Miners' Strike tried to take down Thatcher. One could argue it was curtailing over indulgent Union Barons. I am not sure I would but they had a case to answer.
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
The list reads a lot like the things that Hungary has done, that Farage and his party like the sound of. Obviously there are degrees of how far it is taken and implemented. Putin didn't consolidate his power all at once.
Rupert Lowe's Great Yarmouth First group coming between Reform and overall control of Norfolk Council will make the county's politics unusually interesting over the next few years. It wouldn't be surprising to see mutual defections depending on which of the two parties is able to conduct itself with the most professionalism.
Rupert Lowe's Great Yarmouth First group coming between Reform and overall control of Norfolk Council will make the county's politics unusually interesting over the next few years. It wouldn't be surprising to see mutual defections depending on which of the two parties is able to conduct itself with the most professionalism.
It'll be a Reform council without the woke nonsense
Rupert Lowe's Great Yarmouth First group coming between Reform and overall control of Norfolk Council will make the county's politics unusually interesting over the next few years. It wouldn't be surprising to see mutual defections depending on which of the two parties is able to conduct itself with the most professionalism.
Ensures Norfolk now has the most rightwing council in GB, Reform most seats but Restore and Lowe holding the balance of power to ensure Farage's councillors don't go wet (which for Restore is presumably going Thatcherite or Borisite rather than Powellite and our Tommyite)
Stronger finish for Con and Reform in Swindon, with only one seat left looks like it will be Tories biggest party but requiring either Reform backing or a minority.
If you are looking for a consultant who can help you grow that number significantly for next time I've heard of this politician who specialises in growth through hypnosis. Perhaps give him a go?
Wakefield has seen an overall turnout of 36.6% - the highest in 10 years. From what I've been told, it sounds like many people who have avoiding voting for many years and first-time voters made the decision to get to the polls yesterday. As it’s an 'all-out' election with every seat up for grabs, people feel their vote really matters and can influence the look of the entire local authority...
It seems to me that Iran fulfils nearly all of those. Other contenders are North Korea and Russia. THAT is the far right. Not Nigel bleedin' Farage
Along with Trump's US, which ticks an awful lot of those boxes.
FAKE NEWS, we don't just meet ALL of the boxes, some great people say we match them ALL AND BETTER than anyone ever. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Wakefield has seen an overall turnout of 36.6% - the highest in 10 years. From what I've been told, it sounds like many people who have avoiding voting for many years and first-time voters made the decision to get to the polls yesterday. As it’s an 'all-out' election with every seat up for grabs, people feel their vote really matters and can influence the look of the entire local authority...
That's really poor.
It is, but at least it has risen! 30-50% is about what you get in locals, though the lowest I've seen is around 18%.
Comments
If Reform don't collapse and descend into in-fighting (which is probable) when in power, we may well find out what Viktor Orban could have got up if he wasn't bound by the EU.
I remain unclear as to where people dreamed up their 1,000 seats for the Greens predictions, but several hundred new councillors across the country and a lot of second places makes for a very interesting change in their position through the rest of the Parliament.
This is also notably better for the Tories than it might have been.
And Labour haven't reached their floor yet. St Helen's is the exemplar of what happens when the floodgates finally burst.
As to Iran, North Korea and Russia, none get the starting gates of being anything other than wicked and corrupt tyrannies. If that list of 14 is what fascism is, then they qualify.
So perhaps not.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/feb/17/theresa-may-attacks-judges-deportation
Theresa May attacks judges over deportation rules
Home secretary accuses judges of 'subverting' democracy and vows to introduce legislation to restrict human rights of offenders
Olivia Blake, the Labour MP for Sheffield Hallam, has said the PM “needs to think about his position” and that there needs to be an “orderly plan” for a post-Starmer Labour party.
“We need an orderly plan,” she told the Independent.
Abroad - it varies a lot, some flaggier than here, others less flaggy.
Anyway, Leon's chosen list suggests Reform are meeting many of the characteristics of the far right. Flags, human rights, enemies, national security, disdain for intellectuals, academia, obsession with crime, suppression of unions, cronyism and corruption all unambiguously ticked.
Imagine what they would think of this whining about the "evil Nazi Reform party". It is crass
The reason Reform gets called far right when the Tories aren't is that Reform has attracted some very angry individuals whose commitment to fairness is doubtful. One can always find someone who is even more extreme, but I think a shaky commitment to fairness and democracy is what separates far right and far left from everyone else.
I ask so we have some way to calibrate your own bias.
(By the way I think Reform are Far Right - or at least too far to the right for me - in some aspects but not overall)
https://democracy.cheltenham.gov.uk/mgElectionResults.aspx?ID=24&RPID=176011092
So slow I am going to the shops to buy supper. Later!
On the other hand, maybe they are doing remarkably well to hang on to 14% of the vote when they could so easily be lost in the tides.
He's done.
*The BBC journalist who should have become Political Editor.
Please don't call Labour, Labia.
He does it by being a chancer and a populist, but he is very definitely a democrat
Ask yourself who wanted these local elections postponed yet again? Not him
From what prime who have been reporting on detailed results have been saying it looks like the Greens have had lots of good seconds - falling just short.
When I was down there for a Blues game it was very flaggy there too. But those were Palestine flags.
I don't think Thatchers governments were far right, no. Elections were free, fair and contested, won on arguments more than scapegoating. Police were supported strongly and sometimes illegally but also constrained by things like the introduction of PACE. Their main focus was imo on the economy, employment and living standards. Some of their policies and actions, possibly very right wing, but as a whole, it's a definite not far right from me.
Modest progress in these elections, but hanging on to where they are strong. Suspect that's what we see next election too from them.
Liz Kendall re PM future: "He's not going to go, and he's not going to set a timetable. People want us focused on their jobs and their future, not our jobs and our future."
The last two days have been epochal in British politics as we see the old order genuinely crumble
You might have expected this forum to collapse into bitterness and anger, yet not. The debate has been civilised, animated, engaging, and clever. And has provided results faster than either Sky or the BBC
A big thankyou to the mods @TSE and @rcs1000. And on that note of sentimental flattery, I really am headed to the shops, in the sweet spring sun. Anon
Currently:
Reform 18
Green 17
Lib Dem 16
Independent 3
If identity politics is now more important to these voters than it was then they might be able to bear a bit of disappointment in other policy areas.
* Except a couple of relics, like Corbyn.
It will be interesting to see if this pattern is repeated.
For surprise, read "Seismic event of San Andreas proportions".
She hangs on again by a slender margin
4 constituencies to go, Uddingston will be a nailed on SNP hold. SNP on no less then 56 constituencies
Currently:
Lib Dem 19
Reform 18
Green 17
Independent 3
Was hoping for 800 seats looks like circa 500
Wakefield has seen an overall turnout of 36.6% - the highest in 10 years.
From what I've been told, it sounds like many people who have avoiding voting for many years and first-time voters made the decision to get to the polls yesterday.
As it’s an 'all-out' election with every seat up for grabs, people feel their vote really matters and can influence the look of the entire local authority...
That's really poor.
So all four Labour councils up for full election have seen their leaders job to Reform.
So all four Labour councils up for full election have seen their leaders job to Reform.