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It’s easier being a Green MP than a Labour MP? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,175
edited April 16 in General
It’s easier being a Green MP than a Labour MP? – politicalbetting.com

Ladbrokes have a market up on Labour MPs defecting to the Greens this parliament. I am not keen on betting on the next MP market simply because there’s over 400 Labour MPs and only a fraction are listed by Ladbrokes.I do think backing a Labour MP to defect this parliament at 2/5 represents value.

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938
    Certainly a few Labour MPs who represent inner city or university towns may defect to the Greens. It is those seats, the type of seats even Corbyn Labour won in 2017 and 2019, where the Green surge is highest
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Must be pretty stressful being a Labour MP for sure.

    Especially tempting if you are an ambitious backbencher with no realistic chance of a Government job, when you can be catapulted into regular Question Time appearences as the Green spokesman for something or other.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    So much for "secret", huh?

    May as well have given it to Peston.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,327
    The worst case scenario at least has one crumb of comfort .

    The GOP would be screwed at the mid-terms as the economic impact would spill into the autumn .
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,884

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    So much for "secret", huh?

    May as well have given it to Peston.
    Leaking stuff to the Times, ideally as a pseudonymous letter, is a great British constitutional tradition.

    Leaking stuff to Preston is a great way of convincing us that it's nonsense.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,308
    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a few Labour MPs who represent inner city or university towns may defect to the Greens. It is those seats, the type of seats even Corbyn Labour won in 2017 and 2019, where the Green surge is highest

    If I pin stick at which of the MPs stood out at representing perhaps a little bit of value, and it is always pin sticking with defections tbh, Maskell was the name my eyes were drawn to.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,882
    edited April 16

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
    I do not think that we can eat pigeons, after all we all know pigeons are not real:

    https://pigeonsarentreal.co.uk/

    They are a government surveilance system, and the covid lockdown was so the batteries could be changed. Hence the need for a new lockdown to change the batteries again.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
    Won't somebody think about the gammon?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612
    Foxy said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
    I do not think that we can eat pigeons, after all we all know pigeons are not real:

    https://pigeonsarentreal.co.uk/

    They are a government surveilance system, and the covid lockdown was so the batteries could be changed. Hence the need for a new lockdown to change the batteries again.

    It was 1987, Britain was reeling from dozens of IRA attacks in both Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher vowed to do whatever it would take to end the carnage.

    As the violence continued unabated, Thatcher confided her concerns in US President Ronald Reagan during a secret meeting in Washington DC. Sensing the importance of this, the American leader divulged his own tactic for getting dirt on suspected communists, jihadi terrorists, anti-war protesters, and anyone else who were thought to threaten the US order. The answer, pigeons.

    But not real pigeons. Biotechnology surveillance drones, harnessing the power of the pigeon, designed by the government to look, walk and squawk, just like real pigeons.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,308
    edited April 16

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448
    Going from a party with a huge majority to a party with few MPs doesn't sound as though it will have much impact on either the country or our politics, so as long as it seems good to the individual, go for it. Apart from that, it raises in me a strong feeling of no enthusiasm.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,272
    Top of that list, Nadia Whittome, seems to because of her personal life rather than her politics. There is a local constituency which flipped from Labour to Green which might indicate the MP would follow but its not on the Ladbrokes list. Not for me.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448
    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than it even is for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    Hang on, I thought reducing the amount of CO2 was the whole point of net zero.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,480
    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,882

    Foxy said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
    I do not think that we can eat pigeons, after all we all know pigeons are not real:

    https://pigeonsarentreal.co.uk/

    They are a government surveilance system, and the covid lockdown was so the batteries could be changed. Hence the need for a new lockdown to change the batteries again.

    It was 1987, Britain was reeling from dozens of IRA attacks in both Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher vowed to do whatever it would take to end the carnage.

    As the violence continued unabated, Thatcher confided her concerns in US President Ronald Reagan during a secret meeting in Washington DC. Sensing the importance of this, the American leader divulged his own tactic for getting dirt on suspected communists, jihadi terrorists, anti-war protesters, and anyone else who were thought to threaten the US order. The answer, pigeons.

    But not real pigeons. Biotechnology surveillance drones, harnessing the power of the pigeon, designed by the government to look, walk and squawk, just like real pigeons.
    Hence the importance of tinfoil hats. It makes the wearer invisible to the surveillance pigeons as they can no longer detct the brainwaves.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,308
    edited April 16
    AnneJGP said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than it even is for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    Hang on, I thought reducing the amount of CO2 was the whole point of net zero.
    I'm not really across the current feedstocks and preferred processes for extracting CO2 into a usable form for industry. From first principles I don't think extraction must necessarily equate to CO2 creation, but it depends on how we do it.

    EDIT: Sandy's CCS comment certainly demonstrates the principle here.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    AnneJGP said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than it even is for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    Hang on, I thought reducing the amount of CO2 was the whole point of net zero.
    The plant in question manufactures CO2 as part of the bioethanol production process, where plant material is converted into fuel. There are other problems with biofuel, but the carbon dioxide released was absorbed by the plant while it was growing, so the net impact on CO2 in the atmosphere is (at least in principle) zero.

    When a fossil fuel is burned, and CO2 released, the carbon in that carbon dioxide had been buried for millions of years and removed from the carbon cycle. So its release is a net addition to carbon dioxide levels.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    Just don’t tell Ed Miliband!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    Just don’t tell Ed Miliband!
    Rolls eyes and tuts.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,144
    My favourite US commentator by a country mile. Currently looking for Donald Trumps balls........

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjBiWiB4NLc
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,884

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,480

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    I don't know the details, but the BBC report implies that the CO2 is a by-product of a process to produce bioethanol in this plant. So it's CCS.

    My guess is that the CO2 from the Middle East is also a byproduct of some other process, and so it's not remotely economical (in normal times, natch) to set up a plant solely to produce CO2, and so then it's a question as to whether there are the manufacturing processes in Britain from which you can take CO2 as a byproduct.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,661
    edited April 16
    Remarkable tale of a Conservative/Labour/UKIP/Conservative/Reform politician

    First he was a Tory councillor, before switching to Labour. Then came a stint in Ukip, followed by a return to the Conservatives that ended in ignominy amid a row over trees. And now, the much-travelled Richard Bingley is representing Reform.

    If Bingley is elected to Thurrock council in Essex on 7 May, it will represent something of a resurrection for the man with a case for being Britain’s most ideologically free-ranging politician, coming three years after he quit as leader of another council – Plymouth.

    Bingley, then in his second stint as a Tory, resigned after the authority cut down 110 mature trees in the centre of the city under the cover of darkness, having fenced them off and deployed security guards.


    [...]

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/apr/15/tory-and-labour-councillor-richard-bingley-joins-reform-may-elections-thurrock
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,958
    Oil producing companies making an extra $23bn per month profit thanks to Iran war......in clearly unrelated news the gulf countries are less keen on a settlement and Russia don't mind their ally getting bombed and threatened with oblivion.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    edited April 16
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Are they hinting that we will be reduced to eating turnstones and other birds of the shoreline?

    Grim.
    Finally pigeons will have a use.

    No pork though, Rupert Lowe is going to say it is all a plot to implement Sharia law.
    I do not think that we can eat pigeons, after all we all know pigeons are not real:

    https://pigeonsarentreal.co.uk/

    They are a government surveilance system, and the covid lockdown was so the batteries could be changed. Hence the need for a new lockdown to change the batteries again.

    It was 1987, Britain was reeling from dozens of IRA attacks in both Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher vowed to do whatever it would take to end the carnage.

    As the violence continued unabated, Thatcher confided her concerns in US President Ronald Reagan during a secret meeting in Washington DC. Sensing the importance of this, the American leader divulged his own tactic for getting dirt on suspected communists, jihadi terrorists, anti-war protesters, and anyone else who were thought to threaten the US order. The answer, pigeons.

    But not real pigeons. Biotechnology surveillance drones, harnessing the power of the pigeon, designed by the government to look, walk and squawk, just like real pigeons.
    Hence the importance of tinfoil hats. It makes the wearer invisible to the surveillance pigeons as they can no longer detct the brainwaves.
    Tinfoil hats may actually boost some signals....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,661
    edited April 16

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,191
    "Migrants making false domestic abuse claims to stay in UK, BBC investigation finds"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crl19dzdd38o
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,376
    Morning all.
    Not one id jump in on with cold hard cash because with defections, who knows?
    That said, my pre November MP Clive Lewis was muttered about being green adjacent in Norfolk turnip bars pre Zack and pre GE 24 and Norwich South is quite a likely green gain as it stands. It would probably be a shoo in with Green Clive as he has plenty of fans in Norwich who would likely jump with him. DYOR etc.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,438
    Andy_JS said:

    "Migrants making false domestic abuse claims to stay in UK, BBC investigation finds"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crl19dzdd38o

    That such things happen are certain. Always have, always will. People are people. In just the same way that criminals tell lies in their defence in court, and do so at our expense on legal aid.

    The scandal is the involvement, if true, of the legal profession in arranging it. It is of course entirely proper for legal advisers, at our expense, to advise clients what the possible routes to a successful claim are, but the great legal tradition is that in the end the client has to do the leg work, fix and pay his own alibi witnesses, concoct his own story and amend it as new evidence comes to light.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,928

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    During extended periods of bad weather and sea conditions the delivery of a lot of fresh produce and top-ups of stored goods stop here so you can go into Waitrose etc and find the shelves massively depleted and many things you want/need are missing. It’s annoying however it’s something you get used to and so you become flexible and instead of having a rant you work out what you can do with what is available.

    If the UK starts having supply issues with certain foods I would hope the country just knuckles down and adapts rather than endless bleating. If it’s the latter then I would just give up on the country.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,438

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    SFAICS the story is that there would be shortages of particular foods, not a food shortage. If the issue were critical - enough to eat - the matter of sufficient fizz to see people through the world cup would not be in the picture.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,438
    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246

    Morning all.
    Not one id jump in on with cold hard cash because with defections, who knows?
    That said, my pre November MP Clive Lewis was muttered about being green adjacent in Norfolk turnip bars pre Zack and pre GE 24 and Norwich South is quite a likely green gain as it stands. It would probably be a shoo in with Green Clive as he has plenty of fans in Norwich who would likely jump with him. DYOR etc.

    I have a friend who was in the local Labour party and has already made the switch to membership of the local Green party. Clive Lewis would find himself among familiar faces if he did make the switch, but that's likely to be the same in many similar seats across the country to one extent or another.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    We’re three weeks away from the locals; if the potential for food and fuel shortages really does enter the national consciousness before then it’s likely to weigh heavily on the Labour vote and what is already looking like a brutal-looking projected national share will end up even lower.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,288
    edited April 16

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Or accidentally rationally, with the go-slow protests on the A90 yesterday. We need more of that kind of fuel efficiency 👍

    (Confused by the lack of screaming outrage about that. Imagine if they’d been wearing orange)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    It is not hard to see Trump deciding that he doesn't give a feck about the election of Republican Senators and Representatives, because he is supremely self-centred. But a lot depends on whether he sees defying the Constitution to go on for a third term as important for his own personal safety, in which case he would probably feel he could do with the assistance of Republican control of Congress, and a practice run at fixing an election. But is he capable of planning that far ahead?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,438

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    How do you distinguish between the ordinary people who don't behave rationally and the extraordinary ones who do? The difficulty is that if others are buying additional stocks of basic and essential product X, it is rational to add yourself to the buyers if you can.

    On that subject, weeks into this crisis and living in a very car/van dependent rural area I have not yet seen a single queue for petrol/diesel and only once seen an out of action pump (two out of eight).

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Which is why Pref Peston should know better than to go on the ten o’clock news talking about fuel shortages.

    He’s an idiot, one of many in the media as we discovered during the pandemic. They all like the sound of their own voices way too much, and don’t understand that it’s sometimes better to shut up.

    At least give the government and industry time to get their plan together, then talk about the plan when it’s announced.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,818

    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    It is not hard to see Trump deciding that he doesn't give a feck about the election of Republican Senators and Representatives, because he is supremely self-centred. But a lot depends on whether he sees defying the Constitution to go on for a third term as important for his own personal safety, in which case he would probably feel he could do with the assistance of Republican control of Congress, and a practice run at fixing an election. But is he capable of planning that far ahead?
    Isn't the plan to grant himself a presidential pardon, which will be extended to all his cronies, just before he bows out?

    My impression is that he couldn't care less about the electoral prospects of Vance, Rubio, or whoever succeeds him as Republican presidential candidate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,143
    Diesel at £1.849 this morning (And that'll be the cheapest around). Amazingly high
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    The way food distribution systems have been optimised even a modest amount of rational resilience-building could cause a surge in demand that supply struggles to keep up with initially. There's an extent to which government is relying on people irrationally assuming everything is going to be unaffected so as not to disturb the normal operation of the existing system.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552
    edited April 16
    FF43 said:

    Remarkable tale of a Conservative/Labour/UKIP/Conservative/Reform politician

    First he was a Tory councillor, before switching to Labour. Then came a stint in Ukip, followed by a return to the Conservatives that ended in ignominy amid a row over trees. And now, the much-travelled Richard Bingley is representing Reform.

    If Bingley is elected to Thurrock council in Essex on 7 May, it will represent something of a resurrection for the man with a case for being Britain’s most ideologically free-ranging politician, coming three years after he quit as leader of another council – Plymouth.

    Bingley, then in his second stint as a Tory, resigned after the authority cut down 110 mature trees in the centre of the city under the cover of darkness, having fenced them off and deployed security guards.


    [...]

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/apr/15/tory-and-labour-councillor-richard-bingley-joins-reform-may-elections-thurrock

    Is this at all unusual? I thought there were quite a number like that from the "crusty careerist" demographic.

    We did this before - what about Councillor Alan Amos? When I brought him up before several people mentioned similars or even more exotic station clocks.

    Alan Thomas Amos (born 10 November 1952) is a British politician who sat as Conservative Member of Parliament for Hexham from 1987 to 1992.

    After serving as a Labour Party Councillor for both Tower Hamlets and Worcester, he defected back to the Conservatives and was elected as a Conservative member on both Worcester City Council and Worcestershire County Council. He later resigned from the Conservatives and was re-elected as a member of Reform UK in the 2025 Worcestershire County Council election.
    *

    I'd say that Bingley is an ultimate self-server. His main achievement was cutting down 110 trees on Armada Way in Plymouth in the middle of the night when he was Council Leader in 2023. I'm sure some remember.

    There does seem to have been a tactical conversion to Faragism around 2014, but 2014 Faragism is relatively central imo in the 2023 to present Conservative Party.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Amos
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Pulpstar said:

    Diesel at £1.849 this morning (And that'll be the cheapest around). Amazingly high

    You have it LUCKY! I can only DREAM of such prices...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 10,062
    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    I think he will do a deal with Newsom who he admires.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246

    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    It is not hard to see Trump deciding that he doesn't give a feck about the election of Republican Senators and Representatives, because he is supremely self-centred. But a lot depends on whether he sees defying the Constitution to go on for a third term as important for his own personal safety, in which case he would probably feel he could do with the assistance of Republican control of Congress, and a practice run at fixing an election. But is he capable of planning that far ahead?
    Isn't the plan to grant himself a presidential pardon, which will be extended to all his cronies, just before he bows out?

    My impression is that he couldn't care less about the electoral prospects of Vance, Rubio, or whoever succeeds him as Republican presidential candidate.
    That's one possibility, but how much is he willing to rely on it?

    If you look at the way he is trying to use the Justice Department to go after his enemies, and his belief in the omnipotence of Presidential power, it seems a bit fanciful to imagine that he would be relaxed about the possibility of an enemy becoming President and cancelling his Presidential pardon. These are the sorts of thought processes that convince autocrats to carry on indefinitely, and Trump thinks and acts a lot like an autocrat.

    The one thing that makes this all moot is that he appears to be becoming increasingly mentally incapable, so his ability to act on his autocratic instincts is hopefully becoming more limited with every day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,143

    Pulpstar said:

    Diesel at £1.849 this morning (And that'll be the cheapest around). Amazingly high

    You have it LUCKY! I can only DREAM of such prices...
    Over £2 in Devon I'm guessing ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,451

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
    As you said before
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,441
    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Remarkable tale of a Conservative/Labour/UKIP/Conservative/Reform politician

    First he was a Tory councillor, before switching to Labour. Then came a stint in Ukip, followed by a return to the Conservatives that ended in ignominy amid a row over trees. And now, the much-travelled Richard Bingley is representing Reform.

    If Bingley is elected to Thurrock council in Essex on 7 May, it will represent something of a resurrection for the man with a case for being Britain’s most ideologically free-ranging politician, coming three years after he quit as leader of another council – Plymouth.

    Bingley, then in his second stint as a Tory, resigned after the authority cut down 110 mature trees in the centre of the city under the cover of darkness, having fenced them off and deployed security guards.


    [...]

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/apr/15/tory-and-labour-councillor-richard-bingley-joins-reform-may-elections-thurrock

    Is this at all unusual? I thought there were quite a number like that from the "crusty careerist" demographic.

    We did this before - what about Councillor Alan Amos? When I brought him up before several people mentioned similars or even more exotic station clocks.

    Alan Thomas Amos (born 10 November 1952) is a British politician who sat as Conservative Member of Parliament for Hexham from 1987 to 1992.

    After serving as a Labour Party Councillor for both Tower Hamlets and Worcester, he defected back to the Conservatives and was elected as a Conservative member on both Worcester City Council and Worcestershire County Council. He later resigned from the Conservatives and was re-elected as a member of Reform UK in the 2025 Worcestershire County Council election.
    *

    I'd say that Bingley is an ultimate self-server. His main achievement was cutting down 110 trees on Armada Way in Plymouth in the middle of the night when he was Council Leader in 2023. I'm sure some remember.

    There does seem to have been a tactical conversion to Faragism around 2014, but 2014 Faragism is relatively central imo in the 2023 to present Conservative Party.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Amos
    Years ago there was a chap like that on Canvey Council. At various times he was Labour, Conservative, Independent, then back to Labour again (IIRC). The local Liberal party formally minuted not to admit him if he applied for membership.

    He's dead now, so I won't name him.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,102

    Morning all.
    Not one id jump in on with cold hard cash because with defections, who knows?
    That said, my pre November MP Clive Lewis was muttered about being green adjacent in Norfolk turnip bars pre Zack and pre GE 24 and Norwich South is quite a likely green gain as it stands. It would probably be a shoo in with Green Clive as he has plenty of fans in Norwich who would likely jump with him. DYOR etc.

    I have a friend who was in the local Labour party and has already made the switch to membership of the local Green party. Clive Lewis would find himself among familiar faces if he did make the switch, but that's likely to be the same in many similar seats across the country to one extent or another.
    Yes, that's relevant - I'm a little reluctant to turn my back on many old friends in Labour, but am encouraged by some familiar faces already with the Greens. And there's plenty of "Not for me at the moment, but I can see why you might, and we're friends anyway". I'm bemused by the reports that British politics is more vicious than it used to be - not my experience, now or then. There's the odd door firmly shut during cold canvassing, and that's it. I think the weakening of party-right-or-wrong sentiment has that upside.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,493

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
    We have two local butchers, two bakers and several greengrocers at the market.

    I'm going to assume we'll fare a bit better in the countryside than the city folk...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,441

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
    Having lived through WWII I'm inclined to the view that I hear 'Wolf' being cried.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,102
    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    Yes, I can see him keeping going till the end of his term, but not for the huge effort required to overturn the Constitution. He does sound increasingly ragged.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,288
    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
    We’d be easily self-sufficient at a push. Vast swathes of the country are given over to growing feedstock for animals, plus all the land for cows (sheep are more marginal) - this is a luxury, often for export. We are already self-sufficient for grains.

    But yet again we are confusing security for autarky. Do we really need to be entirely self-sufficient? That’s not been the case for hundreds of years.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342
    Mortimer said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
    We have two local butchers, two bakers and several greengrocers at the market.

    I'm going to assume we'll fare a bit better in the countryside than the city folk...
    To a point. Diseasal is now +49p a litre since the start of the war. One food manufacturer customer on Tuesday complaining that their fuel surcharge is now +27% and still rising.

    Hyper local production / retail can avoid some of this. But everything they buy will be paying +27% for the fuel alone, to say nothing of the price of the actual product (feed, fertiliser etc) which is also rocketing.

    Let’s assume that China now intervenes and some kind of deal is done. The straight reopens partially in a few weeks with Trump personally taking a cut of the passage tax. That doesn’t instantly fix this. The damage is already done nd the effects of that means prices will rise through the year regardless.

    As for availability, less stuff is being planted. Which means what for crop yields later this year?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
    We’d be easily self-sufficient at a push. Vast swathes of the country are given over to growing feedstock for animals, plus all the land for cows (sheep are more marginal) - this is a luxury, often for export. We are already self-sufficient for grains.

    But yet again we are confusing security for autarky. Do we really need to be entirely self-sufficient? That’s not been the case for hundreds of years.
    I think there are two problems. One is that globalisation has led to a concentration of global supply chains, so there are lots of single points of failure. Relying on imports for certain goods can be made more resilient by having a diverse global supply chain, so that if one supplier falls by the wayside, there's somewhere else to go to.

    The other problem is a bit more fundamental - Britain imports too much and borrows to pay for those imports. Sure, autarky isn't the answer, but Britain does have to work out how to make and export more, simply to pay for continuing imports.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,441

    algarkirk said:

    Might Trump allow the midterms to go ahead more or less lawfully instead of rigging/cancelling them and turn instead to his own personal exit immunity strategy? I am starting to waver. He sometimes looks as if he has had enough.

    Yes, I can see him keeping going till the end of his term, but not for the huge effort required to overturn the Constitution. He does sound increasingly ragged.
    Does Melania want him at home though?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
    We’d be easily self-sufficient at a push. Vast swathes of the country are given over to growing feedstock for animals, plus all the land for cows (sheep are more marginal) - this is a luxury, often for export. We are already self-sufficient for grains.

    But yet again we are confusing security for autarky. Do we really need to be entirely self-sufficient? That’s not been the case for hundreds of years.
    My point is more about efficicency.

    On the other side, large swathes of the Netherlands are like a single huge suburb - albeit far better designed suburbs for facilities than we have done.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562
    What concerns me, on the oil products shortage issue, is aggressive pushback. Against there being a problem at all.

    I’ve encountered a non-trivial percentage of senior people who adamant that there isn’t a problem and won’t be a problem. So discussing possible mitigation is bad.

    The reason that this concerns me is that if this attitude is present at the top of government and industry, then preparations won’t be made.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552

    Mortimer said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    We are fucked with a capital Fuck
    We have two local butchers, two bakers and several greengrocers at the market.

    I'm going to assume we'll fare a bit better in the countryside than the city folk...
    To a point. Diseasal is now +49p a litre since the start of the war. One food manufacturer customer on Tuesday complaining that their fuel surcharge is now +27% and still rising.

    Hyper local production / retail can avoid some of this. But everything they buy will be paying +27% for the fuel alone, to say nothing of the price of the actual product (feed, fertiliser etc) which is also rocketing.

    Let’s assume that China now intervenes and some kind of deal is done. The straight reopens partially in a few weeks with Trump personally taking a cut of the passage tax. That doesn’t instantly fix this. The damage is already done nd the effects of that means prices will rise through the year regardless.

    As for availability, less stuff is being planted. Which means what for crop yields later this year?
    I hope that SKS & Co have been putting a heavy emphasis on building a closer relationship with Canada for the last 18 months, as they have been rapidly pivoting away from their economy being joined-at-the-hip to the USA, and have an enormous potash extraction industry.

    There has been an opportunity to fix up long term agreements, but I don't think that SKS and Co think other than mainly tactically around industry.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,380
    Eabhal said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Or accidentally rationally, with the go-slow protests on the A90 yesterday. We need more of that kind of fuel efficiency 👍

    (Confused by the lack of screaming outrage about that. Imagine if they’d been wearing orange)
    I doubt many even knew about it. These farmers' fuel protests have been going on far longer in Ireland, which might be where the idea came from.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,397

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Diesel is far more an issue for UK than petrol is my understanding.

    There may be food but how is it to be delivered?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,380

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
    We’d be easily self-sufficient at a push. Vast swathes of the country are given over to growing feedstock for animals, plus all the land for cows (sheep are more marginal) - this is a luxury, often for export. We are already self-sufficient for grains.

    But yet again we are confusing security for autarky. Do we really need to be entirely self-sufficient? That’s not been the case for hundreds of years.
    I think there are two problems. One is that globalisation has led to a concentration of global supply chains, so there are lots of single points of failure. Relying on imports for certain goods can be made more resilient by having a diverse global supply chain, so that if one supplier falls by the wayside, there's somewhere else to go to.

    The other problem is a bit more fundamental - Britain imports too much and borrows to pay for those imports. Sure, autarky isn't the answer, but Britain does have to work out how to make and export more, simply to pay for continuing imports.
    Not selling off the exporters would be a start. That way, we'd only be exporting goods and services, not the profits and IP.

    It is also, of course, why we had a large navy – to protect trade routes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Remember also that a lot of the supermarket supply issues early in the pandemic were because people had to replace the ~25% of calories that had been consumed via takeaways and eating out. There's anecdotal evidence that there's been a drop off in people eating out in Ireland in recent weeks, whether because people don't want to drive anywhere for fear of running out of diesel, or because they can no longer afford it because of the cost of diesel. So you'd expect a compensating rise in food volumes sold by supermarkets.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    edited April 16

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Though manufacturing may have gone that way, the idea we can only get CO2 from the Middle East feels far more absurd than the same argument for oil.

    Let's hope we can do enough of this across the domestic sector:

    BBC News - UK CO2 plant to reopen in Iran war contingency plan - BBC News
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cew7xrj4497o?app-referrer=deep-link
    If only we'd cracked on with CCS years ago, we'd have an abundance of CO2.
    Presumably in normal times, it's not worth it. If carbon dioxide were really that valuable, free enterprise would be capturing it from power stations and cement works for profit.

    In normal times, it's a cheap (consider the price of off-brand fizzy drinks) chemical, and Britain doesn't want to do low-value stuff like that.

    In normal times.
    Industrial CO2 is typically sourced where it is already separated from a gas stream as part of the process. So biomass upgrading, bioethanol, fertiliser production etc. The incremental cost of cleaning it up is relatively modest compared to the cost of a new CO2 capture plant on the back of a cement works, so has market advantage.

    In future, when CO2 capture plants are operating to reduce emissions, a side stream of the captured CO2 could also be polished for Industrial use at low incremental cost.
    Thanks- makes sense. Though isn't the implication of our Gulf-dependence that even that process struggles to make sense in the UK in pure business terms?

    One of the lessons I took from the pandemic was that we've traded too much resilience for efficiency. Is this another example?
    Not disagreeing with your point but trading-off efficiency creates its own resilience issues. A well known example is the First World War where Britain was highly dependent on food imports but had a very efficient agricultural sector. Meanwhile Germany was mostly self sufficient in food based on close to subsistence farming. Going into the war Britain was seen as vulnerable, yet it was Germany that starved, a major cause off its defeat.
    I think it would be a mistake to position it as a question of resilience vs efficiency. I think it's generally more likely to be a consequence of Britain's record of chronic underinvestment.

    If there's a lack of investment in new technology and new equipment, then facilities in Britain will obviously become relatively less efficient compared to those in other countries where there is more investment, producing more efficient facilities. if Britain had invested more over the last many decades, then it would enjoy greater efficiency and greater resilience.

    The tradeoff is between immediate consumption, and investment to generate a return that allows for greater consumption later. Britain has made itself poorer, less efficient, more vulnerable to global shocks, and generally more miserable, by prioritising consumption today.

    Even Britain's experience of austerity was in some respects a case of spend today and austerity tomorrow, certainly in comparison with some other European countries, and that's the current framework that the Treasury employs.
    It's still plenty early in the year to plant some veggies.

    I'm never sure about this "British farming self-sufficiency / productivity" thing.

    The Dutch have a similar climate, about 1/4 or 1/3 as much agricultural land as us per person, yet manage to be one of the most significant food exporting countries in the world.

    I think it is about investment, with a nod to planning, and economic culture.
    We’d be easily self-sufficient at a push. Vast swathes of the country are given over to growing feedstock for animals, plus all the land for cows (sheep are more marginal) - this is a luxury, often for export. We are already self-sufficient for grains.

    But yet again we are confusing security for autarky. Do we really need to be entirely self-sufficient? That’s not been the case for hundreds of years.
    I think there are two problems. One is that globalisation has led to a concentration of global supply chains, so there are lots of single points of failure. Relying on imports for certain goods can be made more resilient by having a diverse global supply chain, so that if one supplier falls by the wayside, there's somewhere else to go to.

    The other problem is a bit more fundamental - Britain imports too much and borrows to pay for those imports. Sure, autarky isn't the answer, but Britain does have to work out how to make and export more, simply to pay for continuing imports.
    Not selling off the exporters would be a start. That way, we'd only be exporting goods and services, not the profits and IP.

    It is also, of course, why we had a large navy – to protect trade routes.
    And we're suffering now precisely because we no longer have a Navy capable of protecting trade routes.

    The Ukrainians managed to reopen their trade route through the Black Sea, despite Russia having access to plenty of drones.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,441

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Remember also that a lot of the supermarket supply issues early in the pandemic were because people had to replace the ~25% of calories that had been consumed via takeaways and eating out. There's anecdotal evidence that there's been a drop off in people eating out in Ireland in recent weeks, whether because people don't want to drive anywhere for fear of running out of diesel, or because they can no longer afford it because of the cost of diesel. So you'd expect a compensating rise in food volumes sold by supermarkets.
    One very often needs to drive to a supermarket. Out of town, massive car parks, with the result that town centre grocers and the like have been almost driven out of existence.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552
    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,397

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    55m
    Whisper it. But Wes Streeting is doing a good job as Health Secretary, and Labour MPs are starting to notice. Was a narrative that his proximity to Mandelson had killed his leadership chances. I'm not so sure.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2044695958546448793
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,958
    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    https://kalshi.com/category/politics/scotus-courts
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,151
    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Do they ever resign?
    Leon said:

    Piquant anecdote. Woke up in Ballycastle and got dressed ready for my itinerary and then I realised I needed a haircut. Postponed things to go for haircut. As I walked to the Turkish barber my belt broke and my jeans started falling down

    I went for the haircut (holding up my jeans). Chatty barber. I told him my predicament. He called his friend and said “where can you buy a belt in Ballycastle”. He then got an answer and walked me to the nearby charity shop which had a big box of belts for £1 each and the nice Irish lady seemed pleased with an early start to trade. And my jeans stopped falling down

    Everything good. A heartwarming tale of multicultural harmony except that as we parted the Turkish guy realised I live in london. And he said london has “too many foreigners now” and then, warming to his theme, he said “Dublin is even worse, much worse, where have all the Irish gone?”

    Likely story... where'd you get that "my belt has broken line"? Harvey Weinstein?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,204
    Good morning

    As is life we are having a few health issues, especially my wife, who sees a consultant next week and it does put things into perspective

    Been into Llandudno this morning and Asda is completely out of petrol as are a couple of other local garages

    It does bring it home that this is very real and I did notice a couple of days ago the speeds of vehicles on the A55 were quite a bit slower

    What a time we are all living through
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    edited April 16
    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Good idea.

    Thomas (77, appointed 1991 by Bush Sr) or Alito (76, appointed 2006 by Bush Jr) are the obvious resignations, after the summer so replacement(s) can be confirmed ahead of the mid-terms.

    Kalshi has a market up on next judge, their favourite is a guy called Andrew Oldham, who I’ve never heard of!
    https://kalshi.com/markets/kxscourt/next-scotus-justice/kxscourt-29

    Edit: they actually have a few markets up on courts.
    https://kalshi.com/category/politics/scotus-courts
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612
    edited April 16
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Good idea.

    Thomas (77, appointed 1991 by Bush Sr) or Alito (76, appointed 2006 by Bush Jr) are the obvious resignations, after the summer so replacement(s) can be confirmed ahead of the mid-terms.

    Kalshi has a market up on next judge, their favourite is a guy called Andrew Oldham, who I’ve never heard of!
    https://kalshi.com/markets/kxscourt/next-scotus-justice/kxscourt-29
    Nah, that only applies when we have a Republican president.

    Amy Coney Barrett.

    On September 26, 2020, shortly after U.S. Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's death, Trump nominated Barrett to succeed her.

    Her nomination was controversial because the 2020 presidential election was only 38 days away and Senate Republicans had refused to hold hearings for Merrick Garland during an election year in 2016.

    The next month, the U.S. Senate voted 52–48 to confirm her nomination, with all Democrats and one Republican in opposition.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552
    Dopermean said:

    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Do they ever resign?
    There is a possibility Trump loses his Senate confirming majority in the mid-terms.

    So if he wants to orchestrate a young Trumpist in, it is sensible to do it now.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Diesel is far more an issue for UK than petrol is my understanding.

    There may be food but how is it to be delivered?
    Diseasal is in everything. Ingredients, packaging, supplies etc all get delivered by diesel. So much food is packed in plastic which is made with diesel. Farmers need diesel for everything they do on the farm. And that just gets you to a finished product. Which gets hauled by diesel to a warehouse and then onto another diesel truck to a supermarket warehouse and then onto another diesel truck to the actual store. Get a delivery? Diesel van.

    Best thing about diesel? We send the oil we get from the north sea abroad to be refined, and then bring in actual diesel. So that's diesel on ships two ways plus trucks to and from the refinery etc etc etc.

    Have read a few things on MAGA twitter that they are doing the blockade to force the world to buy oil from Trump (US/Venezuela) in dollars and thus protect the petrodollar.

    This is The End. If the war doesn't end with American dominance of global energy supplies then the petrodollar is finished. And that means the US economy is finished.

    So yeah, we're caught up in a giant shell game. And its going to significantly damage us.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    Dopermean said:

    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Do they ever resign?
    For Justices appointed in the 20th century the current scores are:

    Retired = 32
    Died = 14
    Resigned = 6
    Still in post = 1

    I think the distinction between resigned and retired is that Justices that resigned from the Supreme Court continued to serve as Federal judges, while those who retired gave up on the judging job entirely. So, only 27% died in post, though perhaps some of the retirements were due to ill-health, and so nearly as involuntary in their timing as death.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,005
    MattW said:

    Dopermean said:

    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Do they ever resign?
    There is a possibility Trump loses his Senate confirming majority in the mid-terms.

    So if he wants to orchestrate a young Trumpist in, it is sensible to do it now.
    But remember that those elected in the mid-terms don’t take office until Jan 2027.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,552

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Do any markets exist for next resigning or to be appointed Supreme Court Judges in the USA?

    Good idea.

    Thomas (77, appointed 1991 by Bush Sr) or Alito (76, appointed 2006 by Bush Jr) are the obvious resignations, after the summer so replacement(s) can be confirmed ahead of the mid-terms.

    Kalshi has a market up on next judge, their favourite is a guy called Andrew Oldham, who I’ve never heard of!
    https://kalshi.com/markets/kxscourt/next-scotus-justice/kxscourt-29
    Nah, that only applies when we have a Republican president.

    Amy Coney Barrett.

    On September 26, 2020, shortly after U.S. Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's death, Trump nominated Barrett to succeed her.

    Her nomination was controversial because the 2020 presidential election was only 38 days away and Senate Republicans had refused to hold hearings for Merrick Garland during an election year in 2016.

    The next month, the U.S. Senate voted 52–48 to confirm her nomination, with all Democrats and one Republican in opposition.
    Another one on that list is showing some leg on the runway - Neomi Rao. She has just published a ruling personally attacking Chief Judge Boasberg, from her perch on the DC Appeals Court. That is a blatant breach of etiquette. It has closed down Contempt hearings in the Garcia Case as desired by Trump, unless I think there is an En Banque hearing (ie the entire Appeals Bench).

    Report - not as dramatic as the title.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jj--DQq64I

    There's a longer video later on the Talking Feds channel.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,315

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Also, it's not even that. Supermarkets depend on people buying stuff at a roughly constant rate, when averaged out among many shoppers. All it needs is a bit of coordination, such as lots of people buying just one extra pack of loo roll at the same same time, to cause stocks to run out. At the time I heard people saying, "Oh, I thought I'd just get a couple of extra packs of loo roll because of all the idiots buying it all," completely oblivious to the fact that it was behaviour like theirs that was actually causing the issue. After all, they'd only bought a couple of extra packs, not a year's supply.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,308
    It's tricky to assess what stage of decline Trump is at relative to Biden at stages of his presidency because of the very different personalities.

    Biden was happy to mime a bit at front of stage, and though things seemed off and there were cracks in the curtain, Debbie Reynolds and her microphone were not on full show.

    Trump, if he sees someone dancing round the draw ropes is just as likely to join in. There is no way that curtain is staying closed.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,102
    I’m confused! I know it’s not easy being Green, but it’s further complicated by Farage, not Polanski, looking like Kermit.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,102

    Like I've being saying most Brits ain't got a scooby about the disruption coming.

    Britain preparing for food shortages as Iran war bites

    Secret government analysis sets out ‘worst-case scenario’ whereby a lack of critical carbon dioxide supplies would hit farming and the hospitality sector


    Britain could face shortages of chicken, pork and other supermarket goods this summer if the war in Iran continues, a secret government analysis has found.

    Officials have drawn up contingency plans for a “reasonable worst-case scenario” amid fears that the closure of the Strait of Hormuz will lead to shortages of carbon dioxide, which is critical to the food industry.

    Senior officials — including from No 10, the Treasury and Ministry of Defence — have secretly rehearsed scenarios looking at the potential impact on British industry in an event codenamed “Exercise Turnstone”.

    The Times has been told the reasonable worst-case scenario prepared for the session, run by the government’s emergency committee, Cobra, was set in June 2026 and assumed that the strait had not reopened and a permanent peace deal had not been reached.

    Farming and hospitality would likely be hit earliest and hardest, given CO2 is used to help increase the shelf life of food such as salad, packaged meats and baked goods.

    CO2 is used in the process of slaughtering nearly all pigs and more than two thirds of chickens and the sector is not thought to have much by way of surplus supplies. While the government does have stockpiles, this was said to not be a long-term solution.

    Breweries would also be hit because the gas is used to make drinks fizzy. Concerns were raised about the shortages coinciding with the Fifa World Cup, which begins on June 11.

    While there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages, officials expect there could be a lack of product variety in shops. Officials discussed unease that the impact would be highly visible and risk undermining wider government campaigns stressing security of supplies in other areas.

    Officials plan to prioritise healthcare and civil nuclear disruption, believing that a collapse in CO2 supplies could cause a risk to life through a lack of dry ice to cool blood supplies, organs and vaccines, as well as to Britain’s national electricity supply.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/iran-war-hormuz-uk-supermarkets-food-shortages-chicken-g620j8xrg

    Yes and no. This very report says "...there are not expected to be critical food supply shortages...". We have become used, over the last few years, to not having the same availability of produce as before Brexit (for a number of reasons). This would be more of the same. Until the threat becomes petrol rationing (unlikely in the UK) or serious disruption to MRI's (lack of liquid helium is a major worry) then I think most people will shrug, grumble and KBO.
    I think what is focussing minds is that is the reasonable worst case scenario, given Trump’s erratic behaviour the worst worse case scenario could happen.
    Its good to be thinking about it and planning, but I take issue a bit with your intro. I don't think the disruption is going to be that significant (at least based on this story).

    But for everyones' interests this needs resolving.
    The other issue is that ordinary people don’t behave rationally.

    Remember bog roll at the start of the pandemic?

    That sort of irrational panic buying could cause problems.
    Except people who stockpile ARE behaving rationally, just for their own benefit, not society. After all, if you rushed out and bought enough loo paper for a year on March 10th 2020, you didn't personally run out. Its a classic irregular verb situation. Same with petrol during the blockades under Blair.
    Diesel is far more an issue for UK than petrol is my understanding.

    There may be food but how is it to be delivered?
    Warning! My turnip store is securely under lock and key.
This discussion has been closed.