Except Trump. Gotta wonder whether he was thinking of the 10 Plagues leading up to the Angel of Death's famous outing, when he scribbled that "Tuesday will be Power Plant Day, and Bridge Day, all wrapped up in one".
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
You can be a democracy with the death penalty, you cannot be a democracy with such a once sided racist law like this.
A horribly flawed democracy. Some democracies do, quite deliberately, practise racial discrimination.
This atrocious piece of legislation must violate Israel’s own Basic Law of Freedom and Human Dignity, and hopefully will be struck down by the Supreme Court.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Some of the apartheid era laws were pretty bad.
But South Africa obviously wasn't a democracy (but perhaps that is your point?
Whereas the USA did absolutely claim to be a democracy even as it had laws against interracial marriage and racially segregated schools and overt voter suppression into the 60s
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
Imagine being 200,000 miles from the Earth, awoken by terrible music, and then having to check with mission control whether you can use the toilet? (Yeah, go ahead, we managed to get the wastewater tank down to 66% while you were asleep.)
I can't help but feel that, if they were hoping to inspire a new generation of astronauts, they maybe should have curated the live communication a bit.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
It was generally accepted, back in the 1940’s, that when two peoples fought over the same land, that the losers would be expelled. Hence the Benes Decrees, the expulsions of Eastern Germans, the population transfers between Greece and Turkey.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Some of the apartheid era laws were pretty bad.
But South Africa obviously wasn't a democracy (but perhaps that is your point?
Whereas the USA did absolutely claim to be a democracy even as it had laws against interracial marriage and racially segregated schools and overt voter suppression into the 60s
Some in the National Party considered themselves a democracy because they were elected by the (white) people.
There was a clip from the 1980s shortly after the Brighton bombing when a South African journalist tried to trap Mrs Thatcher by saying the ANC are just like the IRA, and his face was ashen faced when Mrs T replied with 'No, the IRA have the vote, the ANC do not.'
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
It was generally accepted, back in the 1940’s, that when two peoples fought over the same land, that the losers would be expelled. Hence the Benes Decrees, the expulsions of Eastern Germans, the population transfers between Greece and Turkey.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Some of the apartheid era laws were pretty bad.
But South Africa obviously wasn't a democracy (but perhaps that is your point?
Whereas the USA did absolutely claim to be a democracy even as it had laws against interracial marriage and racially segregated schools and overt voter suppression into the 60s
Some in the National Party considered themselves a democracy because they were elected by the (white) people.
There was a clip from the 1980s shortly after the Brighton bombing when a South African journalist tried to trap Mrs Thatcher by saying the ANC are just like the IRA, and his face was ashen faced when Mrs T replied with 'No, the IRA have the vote, the ANC do not.'
Thatcher called the ANC "a typical terrorist organisation".
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
In a representative democracy you don't even need 50%+ to support a bad policy to have it passed. Just 50% of those elected representatives.
The advantage of democracy is our ability to kick out bastards, not the ability to prevent them getting into or abusing their power.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
It was generally accepted, back in the 1940’s, that when two peoples fought over the same land, that the losers would be expelled. Hence the Benes Decrees, the expulsions of Eastern Germans, the population transfers between Greece and Turkey.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
Some of the apartheid era laws were pretty bad.
But South Africa obviously wasn't a democracy (but perhaps that is your point?
Whereas the USA did absolutely claim to be a democracy even as it had laws against interracial marriage and racially segregated schools and overt voter suppression into the 60s
Some in the National Party considered themselves a democracy because they were elected by the (white) people.
There was a clip from the 1980s shortly after the Brighton bombing when a South African journalist tried to trap Mrs Thatcher by saying the ANC are just like the IRA, and his face was ashen faced when Mrs T replied with 'No, the IRA have the vote, the ANC do not.'
Thatcher called the ANC "a typical terrorist organisation".
Because she didn't like attacking civilian targets.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Perhaps. But we don’t call it racism. It was just a consequence of losing the war.
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
An easy judgement to make, in a rich world democracy, eighty years on.
Nobody claims that Poland or Czechia have been “racist from the beginning”.
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
They’re not wrong. That said friendly Israeli and Iranian relations would be an absolute godsend to the region.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
An easy judgement to make, in a rich world democracy, eighty years on.
Nobody claims that Poland or Czechia have been “racist from the beginning”.
Almost 6 million Poles died in World War 2, largely at the hands of the Germans, and sometimes the Russians (about 3 million Jews and around 2.8 million ethnic Poles). Nearly 20% of the population
The equivalent is France invading the UK, brutalising us for six years, treating us like vermin, and killing 12 million Britons in the process. Would we thereafter let large numbers of French people carry on peaceably living in Kent? The idea is ridiculous
Perfectly fine. Just call them terrorists or make a spurious claim about Hezbollah to justify the annexation ongoing
How do you know the claim about Hezbollah isn’t legitimate?
How do you know they made that claim. I’m just saying that’s how they usually justify destroying civilian homes. Even Christian ones
Israel are in the process of annexing Lebanon up to the Litani River, as stated wa their intent by Smotrich two weeks ago. Christian villages have been damaged and razed too. Guess they’re Hezbollah too 🤷♂️
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Yes, it is an enormous epochal tragedy, unfolding in real-time, right in front of us
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
I'm struggling to think of another "democracy" passing a law as clearly perverse, unjust and cruel as this, in my lifetime
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
You have to bring your own interpretation of what is "democracy" though.
Pol Pot transformed Cambodia into a one-party state that he called "Democratic Kampuchea". It wouldn't do to ask him when you were getting a vote on Year Zero, though.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Yes, it is an enormous epochal tragedy, unfolding in real-time, right in front of us
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Perfectly fine. Just call them terrorists or make a spurious claim about Hezbollah to justify the annexation ongoing
How do you know the claim about Hezbollah isn’t legitimate?
How do you know they made that claim. I’m just saying that’s how they usually justify destroying civilian homes. Even Christian ones
Israel are in the process of annexing Lebanon up to the Litani River, as stated wa their intent by Smotrich two weeks ago. Christian villages have been damaged and razed too. Guess they’re Hezbollah too 🤷♂️
Anybody who supports Israel annexing part of Lebanon but doesn’t support Russia annexing part of Ukraine is a two-faced f*cker. I am finding increasingly difficult to think that Netanyahu is any better than Putin.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
In a representative democracy you don't even need 50%+ to support a bad policy to have it passed. Just 50% of those elected representatives.
The advantage of democracy is our ability to kick out bastards, not the ability to prevent them getting into or abusing their power.
Is it iyo good that Israel has a supreme court which can throw this 'death penalty based on race' innovation out?
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
Are you referring to what Israel did to some Palestinians or what the MENA countries did to all their Jews ?
Its very easy for people to get self-righteous on behalf of 'their side' from the safety of their keyboard.
In the real world expelling a hostile, threatening demographic might be necessary for peace and security.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Yes, it is an enormous epochal tragedy, unfolding in real-time, right in front of us
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Good idea! Better sourdough than some of the sour comments on here this afternoon. @BartholomewRoberts comments in particular have been unedifying and not a credit to PB.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Yes, it is an enormous epochal tragedy, unfolding in real-time, right in front of us
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
Yes, it is an enormous epochal tragedy, unfolding in real-time, right in front of us
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Sourdough is overrated - discuss!
Why discuss something that, on merits alone, should be universally accepted?
Reading this thread and listening to the news one is filled with dread and revulsion
Israel's decree on hanging is utterly shocking and whats make this so depressing is that Netanyahu and the Iranian regime are willing to sacrifice the lives of their innocent peoples on their altar of hate and prejeudice
It is a lovely spring day here and hard to comprehend how this pans out
There seems no solution in sight, other than more death and destruction and the global economies on the precipice
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
They’re not wrong. That said friendly Israeli and Iranian relations would be an absolute godsend to the region.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
Like it or not “ethnic cleansing” was not a crime in international law, prior to the revision of the Geneva Conventions in 1949. It was often considered as statesmanship. Many acts that would be termed war crimes today, were entirely lawful, pre 1949.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
You can be a democracy with the death penalty, you cannot be a democracy with such a once sided racist law like this.
Why? You can't be a modern civilised country (not that Israel's been trying for a while) but I see no reason you can't have racist laws in a democracy.
Perfectly fine. Just call them terrorists or make a spurious claim about Hezbollah to justify the annexation ongoing
How do you know the claim about Hezbollah isn’t legitimate?
How do you know they made that claim. I’m just saying that’s how they usually justify destroying civilian homes. Even Christian ones
Israel are in the process of annexing Lebanon up to the Litani River, as stated wa their intent by Smotrich two weeks ago. Christian villages have been damaged and razed too. Guess they’re Hezbollah too 🤷♂️
Anybody who supports Israel annexing part of Lebanon but doesn’t support Russia annexing part of Ukraine is a two-faced f*cker. I am finding increasingly difficult to think that Netanyahu is any better than Putin.
It’s not really the same, seeing as Ukraine wasn’t lobbing rockets at Moscow before the war started where it is an objective fact that Hezbollah have been firing rockets at Tel Aviv for as long as I can remember. That said I don’t personally support Bibi or any annexation.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
I wonder if Israelis have misjudged things on a more fundamental basis.
I think Israel received much sympathy in the western world because of the Holocaust and respect for the way it won wars against multiple larger countries.
But both of those factors have been in decline for years, perhaps since the 1980s, and replacing them is the traditional/ancestral distrust/dislike of Jews.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
Collective punishment will always be a feature of conflicts. Economic sanctions are a form of collective punishment.
I got reminded by Facebook today that it’s four years since my first day of walking holiday
I got a cheap flight to Girona and decided on the way to walk to France. On that first day four years back I walked to Figueres; it was over 70,000 steps
I realised that I could walk anywhere that I wanted to
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
I wonder if Israelis have misjudged things on a more fundamental basis.
I think Israel received much sympathy in the western world because of the Holocaust and respect for the way it won wars against multiple larger countries.
But both of those factors have been in decline for years, perhaps since the 1980s, and replacing them is the traditional/ancestral distrust/dislike of Jews.
I think there's a lot of latent anti-semitism out there, which is not the fault of the Israeli government at all, but some of its recent actions are giving cover for some of it to come out more openly again. Certainly not all criticism of the Israeli government is anti-semitic and that government should not have to be perfect to discourage the return of anti-semitic tropes, but they can unfortunately open the door.
I got reminded by Facebook today that it’s four years since my first day of walking holiday
I got a cheap flight to Girona and decided on the way to walk to France. On that first day four years back I walked to Figueres; it was over 70,000 steps
I realised that I could walk anywhere that I wanted to
Please send us fun and amusing photos and stories from your upcoming walk. We desperately need the good cheer
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
They’re not wrong. That said friendly Israeli and Iranian relations would be an absolute godsend to the region.
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
They’re not wrong. That said friendly Israeli and Iranian relations would be an absolute godsend to the region.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
I wonder if Israelis have misjudged things on a more fundamental basis.
I think Israel received much sympathy in the western world because of the Holocaust and respect for the way it won wars against multiple larger countries.
But both of those factors have been in decline for years, perhaps since the 1980s, and replacing them is the traditional/ancestral distrust/dislike of Jews.
In some ways Israel is more of a Hebrew state than a Jewish one.
Take at look at how many Jewish Noble winners there are but notice how few of them are Israeli:
I got reminded by Facebook today that it’s four years since my first day of walking holiday
I got a cheap flight to Girona and decided on the way to walk to France. On that first day four years back I walked to Figueres; it was over 70,000 steps
I realised that I could walk anywhere that I wanted to
I wish I could, I really do. I can't walk anywhere now with a walking frame of some sort. Once upon a time I could walk all over the place!
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
You said Germans were lucky “they weren’t slaughtered en masse” because of what Germans did to the Slavs. I think I can be forgiven for thinking your linkage of two events referred to collective punishment, a cause and its repercussions. Like I say such a clash of value systems one can’t reconcile. A utilitarian, for example, might say it’s justified to torture a child to save a million lives. Others would disagree vehemently. You’ll never reconcile those two viewpoints. You just have to learn to live together.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
There was so much to admire about Israel. It is horrific what has become of them. They have become the archetypal abusive husband, "Look what you made me do!"
There are genuine "Nazis" in the Israeli government. They reallly think Palestinians are subhuman. AIUI there is a chance this appalling law will be struck down by the Supreme Court in Israel, let's hope that happens
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
I think this is key: the Netanyahu government has, I suspect, sown the seeds of Israel's destruction. Should that happen, I will weep for the millions of Jews who did not support his government and who protested it.
I wonder if Israelis have misjudged things on a more fundamental basis.
I think Israel received much sympathy in the western world because of the Holocaust and respect for the way it won wars against multiple larger countries.
But both of those factors have been in decline for years, perhaps since the 1980s, and replacing them is the traditional/ancestral distrust/dislike of Jews.
That is exactly Netanyahu's shtick. All of the shock horror about Israel's barbaric behaviour is apparently an expression of latent antisemitism. It's a self-serving nonsense designed to allow them to act with impunity.
Almost anything can be justified in military terms. Destroying Iranian civilian infrastructure will make it far harder for the regime to fight on. It may be the path to victory.
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
This last week, a (Jewish) Persian friend of mine said something along the lines of you have to be really quite deluded to think that Israel is doing this to help liberate the Persian people and that it has their best interests in mind..
They’re not wrong. That said friendly Israeli and Iranian relations would be an absolute godsend to the region.
It would have to be sent by god to happen.
You want Allah and Jehovah to meet?
Same dude. More or less.
Yes; if dudes at all. Odin, now, that's different.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
Collective punishment will always be a feature of conflicts. Economic sanctions are a form of collective punishment.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
Well, you could read it as him attempting to make a nuke threat without necessarily actually wanting to use nukes, because the other threats have so far not proven to be effective, but I don't know that that would be any more reassuring.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
Indeed. And "no anything" is third in the list he claims is a set of two.
So could be read there will be something worse than "no anything".
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
If closing the straits could cause millions of deaths from famine, wouldn’t it be the moral thing to do?
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I'm just not sure we want to describe the likes of the US and Israel as allies anymore.
They don't need to be enemies. But they're not allies. It makes it easier to not even try to justify their actions. A bit like China and their actions domestically, or some of the GCC nations and their record with migrant labour. We can trade, but that's it.
Frankly we should have nothing to do with the Middle East. Not in our sphere of influence, nor of that of any reliable allies.
Our focus should be on further reducing fossil fuel reliance and then we can stop paying attention to the region once and for all.
(I'm fine with north sea drilling as well for what it's worth, but it's a drop in the ocean and won't stop prices spikes where our consumption relies on global oil/gas prices).
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
If closing the straits could cause millions of deaths from famine, wouldn’t it be the moral thing to do?
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
You said Germans were lucky “they weren’t slaughtered en masse” because of what Germans did to the Slavs. I think I can be forgiven for thinking your linkage of two events referred to collective punishment, a cause and its repercussions. Like I say such a clash of value systems one can’t reconcile. A utilitarian, for example, might say it’s justified to torture a child to save a million lives. Others would disagree vehemently. You’ll never reconcile those two viewpoints. You just have to learn to live together.
Well, the Poles could rightly argue in 1945 that the Germans deserved to suffer en masse because, after all, the Germans VOTED for Hitler, in their millions. He wasn’t some horror imposed on them against their will
They read Mein Kampf, and they still voted for him
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
If closing the straits could cause millions of deaths from famine, wouldn’t it be the moral thing to do?
If it's your naked aggression that has led to the closure in the first place, and you could achieve a reopening by stopping it and negotiating, the answer to this question would be just about the most resounding NO it is possible to conceive of.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
It’s utterly horrific, as I mentioned upthread it’s sham trials.
It's literally like something you'd find in a history of the Third Reich
"In 1937, the Reichstag passed a law reintroducing the death penalty, but only for Jews. The special courts for Jews were administered by the SS, and almost everyone was briskly convicted, then hanged"
You'd wince and think "Jesus that's sick, but then again, it's the Nazis"
As you say, is this the behaviour of a "democracy"? Democracy literally means government by the people. But this law clearly means Palestinians are not classed as true people, they are something lesser. Sub-people
Just to be clear, there are also Israelis opposing this on exactly those grounds.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I oppose the law as I oppose all racism and death penalty.
There is much they do I dislike. This is one. It is wrong. What more do you want me to say?
Never repeat that Israel is a democracy, a real democracy doesn’t pass laws like this.
Bullshit.
Democracies can pass repugnant laws.
Hopefully it is democratically revoked.
I see you’re becoming abusive when wrong, I’ll no longer engage with you on this topic.
It is an interesting question - I’ve encountered people who believe that you can’t be a democracy if have he death penalty.
Which seems to me to be a muddling up of democracy and being liberal.
The truth is that many hideous things could get 50%+ support, in many countries. And have, in the past
You can be a democracy with the death penalty, you cannot be a democracy with such a once sided racist law like this.
In the west we have liberal democracy. That is democracy tempered to avoid the trampling of individual rights by the riled up masses. The fact that a majority of people thinks someone deserving of punishment without trial is democratic, but it’s not liberal, for example. The problem with the EU is that it’s great at liberalism but crap at democracy, the New Right (Reform, Trump et al) have the exact opposite problem. That’s a big part of the problem we have.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
If closing the straits could cause millions of deaths from famine, wouldn’t it be the moral thing to do?
And I am accused of whataboutery?
There again should we really challenge DJT if he is curious as to what it would feel like to be God for the day?
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
March 2020 happened and here most of us are. It was utterly shit but we muddled through.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
March 2020 happened and here most of us are. It was utterly shit but we muddled through.
It was fucking horrific, for me (and worse for others, of course)
"Matthew Goodwin has been paid a salary of up to €10,000 a month [from Hungary's state-funded MCC], according to leaked documents obtained by Hungarian investigative journalists Direkt36 and reported by the Good Law Project"
Off topic, but probably of interest to those who care about government finances:
As I read through Sandburg’s biography of Lincoln, I keep finding bits that may have relevance to current problems. For example, in chapter 33, I found this:
Thus the double profit of banker’s interest on Government guaranteed and supervised money issues, and the gold-paid interest on bonds was the inducement by which Chase, with Lincoln’s complete endorsement, proposed to rally cash resources to the war for the Union. Also the aim was to bring order out of chaos in currency. Acrosss the country were in circulation more than 8,300 sorts of paper money of solvent banks, according to one financial writer, while issues of fraudulent, and broken and worthless banks brought the totalup to more than 13,000.
“Shinplasters” was the nickname for this mongrel money; once a soldier had used them as plasters for a wounded shinbone. Bills of the banks in one state found no circulation in another. A traveler passing thourgh several states might have to change money several times, pay heavy discounts, and sometimes commissions.
Perhaps “crypto” is a modern version of “mongrel money”.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
I always remember an exchange, in Red Country, by Joe Abercrombie. After the protagonists’ farm has been burned out by raiders.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
Are you heading from the Smoke to sunny South Wales?
It is slightly different. The Trump family I don't believe made billions out of COVID, they are all gaming this war like pros.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I don't know how you read something like "there are other things that are worse than those two" without concluding he'd quite like to nuke Iran if he could get away with it.
If closing the straits could cause millions of deaths from famine, wouldn’t it be the moral thing to do?
Nuclear annihilation or famine? Because when you throwing bombs at people those people or their friends tend to throw bombs back, as we have seen.
TBH I’d take my chances with famine. Horrible, you’ll likely not make it out the other side, but your chances are better than in a nuclear inferno.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
An easy judgement to make, in a rich world democracy, eighty years on.
Nobody claims that Poland or Czechia have been “racist from the beginning”.
Not exactly - but historians are quite explicit that those postwar terrorories were subject to mass forced population movements (by Stalin) on ethnic lines. Stalin believed that ethnically homogenous states would be easier to control.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
March 2020 happened and here most of us are. It was utterly shit but we muddled through.
It was fucking horrific, for me (and worse for others, of course)
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
I always remember an exchange, in Red Country, by Joe Abercrombie. After the protagonists’ farm has been burned out by raiders.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
It certainly has scope to be far, far worse than many people have remotely considered. A recession is probably the best we can hope for out of the current set of circumstances. A depression is quite possible if Trump goes all fire and brimstone. I doubt many people have sufficiently strong personal finances to endure that.
Aaron Rupar @atrupar Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
I'm just not sure we want to describe the likes of the US and Israel as allies anymore.
They don't need to be enemies. But they're not allies. It makes it easier to not even try to justify their actions. A bit like China and their actions domestically, or some of the GCC nations and their record with migrant labour. We can trade, but that's it.
Frankly we should have nothing to do with the Middle East. Not in our sphere of influence, nor of that of any reliable allies.
Our focus should be on further reducing fossil fuel reliance and then we can stop paying attention to the region once and for all.
(I'm fine with north sea drilling as well for what it's worth, but it's a drop in the ocean and won't stop prices spikes where our consumption relies on global oil/gas prices).
Unfortunately even if we wanted to ignore it, it is not possible as we are all bound up with the effects of this conflict as we are likely to experience as the months pass by
Drilling for oil and gas has become a no brainer but we must continue to transistion away but also use everything we have to make it happen over the next couple of decades
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
You said Germans were lucky “they weren’t slaughtered en masse” because of what Germans did to the Slavs. I think I can be forgiven for thinking your linkage of two events referred to collective punishment, a cause and its repercussions. Like I say such a clash of value systems one can’t reconcile. A utilitarian, for example, might say it’s justified to torture a child to save a million lives. Others would disagree vehemently. You’ll never reconcile those two viewpoints. You just have to learn to live together.
Well, the Poles could rightly argue in 1945 that the Germans deserved to suffer en masse because, after all, the Germans VOTED for Hitler, in their millions. He wasn’t some horror imposed on them against their will
They read Mein Kampf, and they still voted for him
I’d dispute that. Yes, a large number did, a plurality. But never a majority in a free election. The Nazis only received about 43.9% of the vote in 1933. This was the last multi-party election before Hitler consolidated power, and it was held under conditions of significant intimidation and violence against opposition parties. After the the Reichstag Fire Decree and the banning of all other parties, the Nazis ran essentially unopposed and claimed 92.2% of the vote. This was not a free election in any meaningful sense.
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
March 2020 happened and here most of us are. It was utterly shit but we muddled through.
It was fucking horrific, for me (and worse for others, of course)
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
Are you heading from the Smoke to sunny South Wales?
It is slightly different. The Trump family I don't believe made billions out of COVID, they are all gaming this war like pros.
To add to the whole Penarth vipes...
Talk on weather twitter of a super El Niño this year. Added to rampant climate change.
I am in the process of writing a short story for a Creative Writing Group to which I belong. I'm not saying exactly what the subject is, but I'd appreciate opinion from an educated community on the following: What is The Sun (newspaper) like as a source of good betting advice?"
(No way would I use it as source of political opinion!)
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
It certainly has scope to be far, far worse than many people have remotely considered. A recession is probably the best we can hope for out of the current set of circumstances. A depression is quite possible if Trump goes all fire and brimstone. I doubt many people have sufficiently strong personal finances to endure that.
Buddy, can you spare a dime?
Yes, I keep trying to rationalise myself to a more hopeful position. "It won't be that bad", "we are more resilient than we think", "the Chinese will put a stop to it", and so forth
But it really could be that bad, very easily, partly because it's a horrific combination of dangers - a war that could go nuclear AND an economic rupture, quickly becoming inevitable, that could lead to famine and revolution
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
I always remember an exchange, in Red Country, by Joe Abercrombie. After the protagonists’ farm has been burned out by raiders.
“You act like you knew it was coming.”
“It’s always coming.”
In a Joe Abercrombie book, it is.
(Although Red Country had some almost wholesome moments compared to most)
I confess I have only once before felt such dire, inescapable foreboding. And that was in February 2020
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
March 2020 happened and here most of us are. It was utterly shit but we muddled through.
It was fucking horrific, for me (and worse for others, of course)
As I recall that weirdo Thomas and his mate Eadric kept following you on your walks to Cosmeston Lakes. That must have been horrific.
Israel has just attacked the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluyeh.
According to the defense minister, two facilities responsible for about 85% of Iran’s petrochemical exports have been put out of operation.
Does that mean it’s no longer necessary to capture Kharg Island?
It means, alarmingly, that the Iranians have no reason at all to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as they would not benefit from it (unless of course their toll systems can be put into operation).
It's also going to *seriously* piss off the Chinese.
The Iranians have no reason to open it anyway. It’s their leverage. If I was them I’d keep it closed and just allow some ships out after a tariff is paid.
Maximum leverage on trump
It has been said that the IRGC is missing payroll, though. Not surprising since Iranian banking has been cut off by their neighbours, and they are not receiving oil revenue.
Don't pay your troops (or don't feed them), and turns out even fanatics have limits.
Agreed.
Israel and the US should go full scorched earth on Iranian petrochemicals and energy and IRGC and military until the Iranian soldiers cave and surrender and oust the regime.
That might have been a tactic - if they could protect water, power, hydrocarbons across the Gulf.
But they can't.
A few weeks back, Barty was arguing gulf war in the basis of liberating Iran's populace. Now he's advocating for the deliberate wreaking of mass destruction on civilians.
For regime change, yes.
If it liberates the civilians then it is a price worth paying.
You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
You'd have an aneurysm if anyone applied that logic to the October 7th attacks.
Absolutely, because they are completely different.
Nope, both are the deliberate targetting of civilians.
You're on the side of the country who will execute Palestinian terrorists but not Israeli terrorists, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I oppose the death penalty unconditionally. Always have, always will.
Targeting military, petrochemicals or energy is not targeting civilians. It absolutely could have impacts upon civilians, which all wars can, but they are legitimate military targets.
It is completely different to the deliberate targeting of civilians.
So why have we not heard a peep out of you about the new Israeli law then?
It negates Israel being a democracy when the state murders one group, fun fact these trials will be conducted by IDF military tribubals, who have a 96% conviction rate, and death penalty is carried out within 90 days.
Fun fact a lot of the defence lawyers are IDF personnel who have in the past described Palestinians as a plague to be wiped out.
The evidentiary rules are much more lax, the 'defence' aren't allowed to cross examine if the IDF says this relates to national security.
I have barely been online the past couple of weeks, but for the record I oppose this law as I oppose all forms of the death penalty.
I always form my own opinions and never agree with anyone unconditionally. Israel and America each have plenty of flaws I dislike, and I have said (repeatedly) I want to see both of their leaders defeated democratically.
Indeed I supported the (now) opposition in both countries at the last election in each.
So I hope that makes my position clear. The death penalty should not be the law.
You’re deliberately missing the point.
It’s not about the death penalty it’s about the one sided nature.
It applies to Palestinians but not Israelis.
This is a racist law, this is not the behaviour of a true democracy but a country that doesn’t value life.
I am more forgiving of Israel than most, but this race-based death penalty is like an Adolf Hitler fever dream. Incredible. For once the Nazi/genocide comparisons are entirely justified
What saddens me is how Israel has let itself sink to this level of depraved bigotry. Didn't have to happen
The Israeli entity has been racist since the beginning. Maybe start by looking at the naqba, then at the Law of Return, and then at how Arabs who managed not to be expelled from the territories forcefully occupied in 1948 were under military occupation until 1966.
I think there’s a difference between racism and discrimination. “Go live elsewhere, this place is now for the jews” is different to “fuck off and die”, for example.
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I wouldn't argue so much about the words. The expulsions of 1948 and 1967 could accurately be characterised as telling hundreds of thousands of people of an unwanted ethnic group to "fuck off and die".
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
Er, what?
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
There’s an irreconcilable clash of value systems here. If you believe in collective punishment, fine. But be consistent about it. There’s enough in English/British history (and that of many other countries) that would, by the same logic, warrant it. If it’s done for the Germans it’s fine for us, the Belgians, the Yanks, the French etc etc etc
I don't "believe in collective punishment"
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
You said Germans were lucky “they weren’t slaughtered en masse” because of what Germans did to the Slavs. I think I can be forgiven for thinking your linkage of two events referred to collective punishment, a cause and its repercussions. Like I say such a clash of value systems one can’t reconcile. A utilitarian, for example, might say it’s justified to torture a child to save a million lives. Others would disagree vehemently. You’ll never reconcile those two viewpoints. You just have to learn to live together.
Well, the Poles could rightly argue in 1945 that the Germans deserved to suffer en masse because, after all, the Germans VOTED for Hitler, in their millions. He wasn’t some horror imposed on them against their will
They read Mein Kampf, and they still voted for him
Estimates range between 6 million and 8.7 million Germans died during ze War.
Comments
The Israelis are whipping up a worldwide storm of hatred against themselves which will one day break over their heads. It is suicidal, apart from anything else
The issue then becomes one of proportionality. Is it worth 2 million Iranians dying of cholera and thirst, due to the destruction of energy facilities, in order to achieve victory?
The Jim Crow laws were pretty bad, but they were largely gone by the mid 1960s
This atrocious piece of legislation must violate Israel’s own Basic Law of Freedom and Human Dignity, and hopefully will be struck down by the Supreme Court.
Whereas the USA did absolutely claim to be a democracy even as it had laws against interracial marriage and racially segregated schools and overt voter suppression into the 60s
Ethnic Germans were expelled from many parts of Europe after the wars but I don’t think we generally call that racism.
I can't help but feel that, if they were hoping to inspire a new generation of astronauts, they maybe should have curated the live communication a bit.
There was a clip from the 1980s shortly after the Brighton bombing when a South African journalist tried to trap Mrs Thatcher by saying the ANC are just like the IRA, and his face was ashen faced when Mrs T replied with 'No, the IRA have the vote, the ANC do not.'
‘Israel has wiped the Lebanese village of Naqoura off the map.’
https://x.com/ramabdu/status/2040754761847202268?s=46&t=d8CnRhyZJ-m4vy0k55W8XQ
Perfectly fine. Just call them terrorists or make a spurious claim about Hezbollah to justify the annexation ongoing
The advantage of democracy is our ability to kick out bastards, not the ability to prevent them getting into or abusing their power.
And on, and on, and on, it goes
The expulsion of Germans from territories after 1945 was unjustifiable too.
After the way the Germans treated the "subhuman" Slavs to their east, throughout World War 2, the Germans were lucky they weren't slaughtered en masse in 1945
Expulsion was a decent compromise, quite frankly
Nobody claims that Poland or Czechia have been “racist from the beginning”.
The equivalent is France invading the UK, brutalising us for six years, treating us like vermin, and killing 12 million Britons in the process. Would we thereafter let large numbers of French people carry on peaceably living in Kent? The idea is ridiculous
Israel are in the process of annexing Lebanon up to the Litani River, as stated wa their intent by Smotrich two weeks ago. Christian villages have been damaged and razed too. Guess they’re Hezbollah too 🤷♂️
All a bit too bleak for such a gorgeous spring day, TBH. I shall hie myself to Marks and Sparks for some sourdough
Pol Pot transformed Cambodia into a one-party state that he called "Democratic Kampuchea". It wouldn't do to ask him when you were getting a vote on Year Zero, though.
Are you referring to what Israel did to some Palestinians or what the MENA countries did to all their Jews ?
Its very easy for people to get self-righteous on behalf of 'their side' from the safety of their keyboard.
In the real world expelling a hostile, threatening demographic might be necessary for peace and security.
I accept that on some lofty philosophical level one *could* argue that the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechia etc was "unjustifiable"
But it's absurd. It ignores human reality: the desire for deadly revenge amongst the Poles, vis a vis the Germans, must have been intense (and entirely understandable). Moving the Germans away from their wrath was a sensible option
Israel's decree on hanging is utterly shocking and whats make this so depressing is that Netanyahu and the Iranian regime are willing to sacrifice the lives of their innocent peoples on their altar of hate and prejeudice
It is a lovely spring day here and hard to comprehend how this pans out
There seems no solution in sight, other than more death and destruction and the global economies on the precipice
I think Israel received much sympathy in the western world because of the Holocaust and respect for the way it won wars against multiple larger countries.
But both of those factors have been in decline for years, perhaps since the 1980s, and replacing them is the traditional/ancestral distrust/dislike of Jews.
I got a cheap flight to Girona and decided on the way to walk to France. On that first day four years back I walked to Figueres; it was over 70,000 steps
I realised that I could walk anywhere that I wanted to
Aaron Rupar
@atrupar
Trump: "We are obliterating their country, and they just don't want to say 'uncle.' But they will. And if they don't, they'll have no bridges, no power plants, no anything. I won't go further because there are other things that are worse than those two, and we might have -- well, if I had my choice, what would I like to do? Take the oil Unfortunately, the American people would like to see us come home."
https://x.com/atrupar/status/2041173732878676045
Take at look at how many Jewish Noble winners there are but notice how few of them are Israeli:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates#Jewish_laureates_per_country
Has Israel produced an Einstein, a Freud, a Chagall, a Mahler ?
It has produced a few Davids, Samsons and Joshuas.
I wish I could, I really do. I can't walk anywhere now with a walking frame of some sort. Once upon a time I could walk all over the place!
So could be read there will be something worse than "no anything".
25th now.
They don't need to be enemies. But they're not allies. It makes it easier to not even try to justify their actions. A bit like China and their actions domestically, or some of the GCC nations and their record with migrant labour. We can trade, but that's it.
Frankly we should have nothing to do with the Middle East. Not in our sphere of influence, nor of that of any reliable allies.
Our focus should be on further reducing fossil fuel reliance and then we can stop paying attention to the region once and for all.
(I'm fine with north sea drilling as well for what it's worth, but it's a drop in the ocean and won't stop prices spikes where our consumption relies on global oil/gas prices).
They read Mein Kampf, and they still voted for him
There again should we really challenge DJT if he is curious as to what it would feel like to be God for the day?
If we are really lucky, and the war ends tonight and the Straits reopen tomorrow, we face severe economic dislocation. And the Iranian regime will stay in place, and the Israelis will carry on their smiting
More likely is that the war will continue, and maybe worsen, and the "dislocation" will turn into catastrophe
On the other hand, I did buy my sourdough
"Matthew Goodwin has been paid a salary of up to €10,000 a month [from Hungary's state-funded MCC], according to leaked documents obtained by Hungarian investigative journalists Direkt36 and reported by the Good Law Project"
That could all end if Orbán loses...
https://bsky.app/profile/josiahmortimer.bsky.social/post/3mit2gopp222r
As I read through Sandburg’s biography of Lincoln, I keep finding bits that may have relevance to current problems. For example, in chapter 33, I found this: Perhaps “crypto” is a modern version of “mongrel money”.
“You act like you knew it was coming.”
“It’s always coming.”
It is slightly different. The Trump family I don't believe made billions out of COVID, they are all gaming this war like pros.
TBH I’d take my chances with famine. Horrible, you’ll likely not make it out the other side, but your chances are better than in a nuclear inferno.
Stalin believed that ethnically homogenous states would be easier to control.
And, is there some truth to that generalization?
Gallows humour may see us through
Buddy, can you spare a dime?
Drilling for oil and gas has become a no brainer but we must continue to transistion away but also use everything we have to make it happen over the next couple of decades
Talk on weather twitter of a super El Niño this year. Added to rampant climate change.
Brace.
I am in the process of writing a short story for a Creative Writing Group to which I belong. I'm not saying exactly what the subject is, but I'd appreciate opinion from an educated community on the following: What is The Sun (newspaper) like as a source of good betting advice?"
(No way would I use it as source of political opinion!)
But it really could be that bad, very easily, partly because it's a horrific combination of dangers - a war that could go nuclear AND an economic rupture, quickly becoming inevitable, that could lead to famine and revolution
*insert joke here*
(Although Red Country had some almost wholesome moments compared to most)
Which is why I propose the destruction of military targets: military facilities, petrochemical industry, energy etc
Not the mass bombings of civilian housing etc as Iran themselves, Hamas, Hezbollah, Russia etc do.
That's what differentiates good from evil.